Large Normal 92 - Game Over! Scum Win!

[zu_Faul]

OMG what have I done?


I am completely with Nanook. I was thinking the same he was.

I can't believe I signed up for this mess

Vote:Mastin

I can't speak for Opera or any of that Apple nonsense

Nor can I.

but IE and Chrome both have tabbed browsing now.

Firefox had it first!
Seriously, though, Firefox pwns.

Bullshit. Opera had it years (!) before FX.

And before that it was invented by NetCaptor.

[zu_Faul]

NetCaptor?

(Netscape = Firefox if thats what you mean, lol)

OMG, why don't you just google it yourself.

[zu_Faul]

You ask for a wagon, you get it, and then you don't like it?

Let's respond by quoting myself and bolding/underlining important parts!

I'm not sure

if

I like this

, or dislike it... :/

Yay for blatantly ignoring over half the sentence!

Yay for you taking absolutely no responsibility?



Orangepenguin's posts were obv jokes.

Vote:Mastin

Based off of nothing more than regretting signing up for this mess?!?

-S^1, + F, Zu, for bandwagoning off of such poor reasoning.

Causation != Correlation.

Mastin: As it *is* the RVS in a 30 person game in my opinion

No. No, it is not.
I got us out of it immediately.
Any vote at this point is likely serious.

Yes, you are the sole judge of when the rvs ends. You can cast a spell on the game and RVS ends immediately. That's what you are doing there. You are using your definition of RVS so that it is convenient for you, but your definition is flawed. There are several people who have not even posted yet. If it was one or two, ok, but there are still like 5 or 6. Maybe now we are starting to make real arguments, but on page 4? I don't think so.

OMG, why don't you just google it yourself.

The fluff post from Zu when the RVS is over has been noted.

See above. I did not think the RVS was over then.

[zu_Faul]

/facepalm

[zu_Faul]

FoS: Zerophear; King

King did openly state that he does not want to contribute. He can't be allowed to get through with this.
Zerophear is kind of the same. Posts like this

Man, in a game with 27 people, it sure does get boring when nothing happens.

are idiotic at best and scummy at worst.

My "/facepalm" post was in reaction to Mastin's reply to my preceding post. I have a huge problem with people who ask questions when the answer to that question is in the following sentence. Maybe you should read the whole post in context first before asking questions.

[zu_Faul]

Hey, I am back, rereading from my last post onwards now.

[zu_Faul]

Mastin and Dev are lyncher tag-team. Considering the size of the game this could be appropriate. Posts like this:

just a thought. How does Red being the target CLEAR him? Are all lynchee's townies or what?

just reinforce this belive.
Well that was a bit out of the box. I believe Mastin's target is OP, if Dev is telling the truth.
THe list Mastin gave was BS, Red was a lurker as well up to that point, he should have been "easy".

I rather have a real townie than a "honorary" one.

There's a great deal of potential in leaving Mastin alive that we throw away if we lynch him. That's the single most important reason why he should be left alive.

I don't get this. Why are we not wasting potential if we lynch someone else?

OrangePenguin seems not very scummy to me.

I am up to page 19.

[zu_Faul]

I seem to have missed a part of Dev's claim (just like at first I missed the whole claim, thinking it was a joke); that Mastin can only start at D2 to get to his goal. Makes it unlikely OP is the target, unless there really is a Dev/Mastin team.

Leaving me alive d1 will test the setup--do we have a vig who'll shoot me, do we have a psychiatrist for a lyncher, do we have a mason recruiter, do we have a role capable of making me town?

This benefits scum just as much as town, if not more.

-Red, if mafia, would've just lied--said he was a lynchee. Confirm me to avoid being the lynch. He didn't. He's telling the truth, hence, isn't mafia. Hence, he wouldn't be lynched, anyway, even if I had claimed someone else as my target.

It is likely that the lynchee isn't told that he is.

Mastin, you are a huge smoke screen for the scum. You are not in the least useful.

Read page 19 now.

[zu_Faul]

Keeping Mastin around and using his "help" would not be very useful, since he will always push for his target. He would be a bad honorary townie.

[zu_Faul]

There is too much trying to outguess the mod in this thread. Assuming that we have/don't have very specific roles. By a lot of people, not only Mastin. Also Azhrei (post 527), zoraster to some extend (post 573). Though zoraster seems quite sensible about this.

zerophear still is very unproductive.

the only thing he's left to claim now is doctor or mafia.

He did claim mafia in his first post.

Zu_Faul: I want to see his reaction to Mastin once he returns from V/LA - his posts before his current absence look scummy, but I want to see more out of him before I'm sure.

Care to explain why they look scummy?

Hmm. Thinking about Selective Scumhunting just brought something to mind:

Mastin, way to tunnel this early on. I wouldn't be surprised if the real scum are sitting back, enjoying that you're taking all the heat for them. I am not sure about your wagon being scum driven. I mean,

I doubt your partners are on you, but most of them are scum?

I really doubt it. I mean, there could be 1 or 2, but I know that I am not scum. You shouldn't be so close minded this early on. You're not going to get anywhere, if you already think you've won when half the players haven't posted yet.

I commented earlier that something about the logic on this post - specifically, the underlined sentence in the post - wasn't making sense.

I just realized how it *would* make sense - if there are 2 Mafias in the game, and orangepenguin was saying that he thought that the other members of Mastin's Mafia weren't on his wagon and that only a few of the *other* Mafia was on his wagon.

But then, how would orangepenguin know that there are two Mafias (if there are even two Mafias) unless he was in one of those Mafias himself? Maybe a really odd power role, but I doubt it...

It's not damning without evidence that there are two Mafias in the setup... but it's quite damning indeed should that evidence appear later.

Setup speculation at its best. Trying to outguess the mod again. You are assuming something very specific about the scum role pms.

FoS: Tarhalindur and StewieT92

StewieT92 agrees with Tar on this. He is making the same scummy move.

[zu_Faul]

Pray, can someone tell me where this idea of masons recruiting people came up?

if you're all being hypothetical... that's pretty unproductive. not to mention profligate on the posts which may well lead to nothing at all...

...Who are you???

Lol

Yes, this deserved a post of its own.

Mod-edit: Lol shortened to avoid stretching of the page.

[zu_Faul]

Let me make one thing clear: OrangePenguin is also setup speculating when he says it is probable that there are two scum factions. But he only brought it up because he was specifically asked. Before that, he did not use it as an argument.

Note: While I've been assuming 1 Mafia because I hadn't seen any reason to assume otherwise up to this point, if orangepenguin is Mafia we're almost certainly dealing with multiscum.

Tar is doing it again.

Oh and it's hammer time

VOTE: MASTIN

He's defending himself wayyy too hard, and not really using good logic. That makes him worth a lynch because his intentions are still unclear to me.

Hey, my gambit worked! Die opportunistic scum!

Unvote; Vote: StevieT92

What? Why would only scum want to hammer Mastin??

[zu_Faul]

and you just messed up the entire page with that pointless post. Great job.

Mod: Can you please edit the lol to something less of a screw up?

Actually, for me it is still fine. Hewitt's point was pretty ridiculous though.

[zu_Faul]

StewieT92 agrees with Tar on this. He is making the same scummy move.

a) Don't you ever call me Stewie .
b) I don't think it's a strong point, but yes Tar made a valid point. What I posted was that if from N1, if it seems like we have two mafia, it is worth pursuing. Not necessarily now when we have no clue of the setup.

a) I am sorry, it must be, because you have random letter and numbers added to your nickname.
b) THen it would be still trying to outguess the mod.

There is nothing to go by but previous games.

This is so wrong.

and you just messed up the entire page with that pointless post. Great job.

Mod: Can you please edit the lol to something less of a screw up?

Actually, for me it is still fine. Hewitt's point was pretty ridiculous though.

What? How is scumhunting instead of focusing on a player that isn't scum ridiculous?

You were not scumhunting. You were saying "Who are you?".

[zu_Faul]

zu_Faul, people have told me this is so wrong. Never have they given me something else to go by. In this game, what is there to go by besides that? What they have said or who they have voted for? Maybe, but what relevant info can you get from this? (This is not a rhetorical question, answer it.)

You can see how people attack each other and how they vote for each other. This is an important tool in scum hunting, as there are some things which are more often done by scum than by town players. For example there could be a noticeable bus D1. Maybe there was one player defending a palyer who turns out scum, that will look scummy. Maybe some things don't make sense when combined with a later claim. There are loads of possbilities.

You were not scumhunting. You were saying "Who are you?".

Honestly? That's all you're taking out of my posts? Wow.

I was talking about that one specific point.

@Dev: Like you, zerophear seemed to have some problems with the tags. Does this make you rethink your stance?

This is pandering to fear, you have no reason to believe this other than Mastin's vote.

The way he attacks him this harshly?

The list Mastin gave was BS, Red was a lurker as well up to that point, he should have been "easy".

You're one to call people lurkers.

This is not relevant in the point I was making.

Additionally, why would a Lyncher tunnel their target from the starting gate? I mean, hell, we're WIFOMing up and down anyways, explain this to me.

Where did I claim that he would tunnel from the start?

If I was just one lurker amidst six or seven others, then it would look pretty bad for Mastin to say that I was the "scummiest" of the lurkers.

How is this relevant?

Because we actually get information that could help us later in the game. Mastin's lynch will only give us information about one player, Dev, which everyone has basically decided to accept as a JOAT at this point.

No, the lynch will give more info than just about Mastin.

What? Why would only scum want to hammer Mastin??

So they don't have to look like their scumhunting.

You did not explain why town would not want to hammer Mastin. Additionally, scum can also place a vote early in the wagon and hide with that. That hammer was a null tell if I've ever seen one.

[zu_Faul]

May I ask why you display this anti-town attitude?

(Not taking a player serious is anti-town obv., as input by that player will be neglected.)

[zu_Faul]

You did not explain why town would not want to hammer Mastin.

You don't agree that scum want the day to end as soon as possible? Scum don't want to appear to be scumhunting, there's more chances that they'll get caught.

Oh, you mean like, mastin's lynch would give us information on who is scum?

No, the lynch will give more info than just about Mastin.

What info will a Mastin flip give besides confirming Dev's claim?

This is a direct contradiction to what you said above.

Where did I claim that he would tunnel from the start?

You said that I am an easy lynch

because

I was lurking. I lurked for the first two-three days of the game. Therefore, Mastin would've had to direct his attention to me from the beginning of the game, before I began to post.

I don't get this. I don't get where you get this "therefore" from. Please help me. I don't understand this as an answer to my point.
Just to clarify: In mastin's list, you should have been labeled a "lurker" and "easy" liek the other people who barely did post. This has nothing to do with tunneling you from the start. He made the list quite a few pages into the game.

You did not explain why town would not want to hammer Mastin.

You don't agree that scum want the day to end as soon as possible? Scum don't want to appear to be scumhunting, there's more chances that they'll get caught.

You shortened my quote. I already provided the answer to your question in the post you quoted (for everyone's convenience I have quoted it below and added emphasis). Oh, and you still did not explain why town would not want to hammer Mastin.

What? Why would only scum want to hammer Mastin??

So they don't have to look like their scumhunting.

You did not explain why town would not want to hammer Mastin.

Additionally, scum can also place a vote early in the wagon and hide with that.

That hammer was a null tell if I've ever seen one.

[zu_Faul]

Oh, you mean like, mastin's lynch would give us information on who is scum?

It doesn't have to be Mastin, wagon-hopping and hammering will occur on any player who gets as many votes.

Yes, but doesn't this contradict what you said of "Mastin's lynch gives us no information"? Can't you see that a Mastin lynch would give us information?

Just to clarify: In mastin's list, you should have been labeled a "lurker" and "easy" liek the other people who barely did post. This has nothing to do with tunneling you from the start. He made the list quite a few pages into the game.

Well, what are you counting by, days or page count? The page count is unusually high, especially in the first few days.

The point is, I was lurking for the first weekend when the game started; I don't have as much time to post on the weekend.

You say I am an easy lynch as an effect of this lurking. I started posting in earnest 3 real time days

into

the game. I wasn't lurking past said 3 days.

I don't say that you are a lurker now. I jsut said that at the point where mastin made the list, regardless of when it was actually made, you should have been beenb labeled a lurker. This is a point against Mastin, not against you.
I hope this solves the confusion.

Oh, and you still did not explain why town would not want to hammer Mastin.

Yeah, I read your quote. Scum may get on the wagon early. The scum may be lurking to victory, too, meaning all of this crap about Mastin is moot.

I'm not going to account for every possibility. Just because the scum may have been the first to start the wagon on Mastin doesn't mean that the person who hammers Mastin is town. Scum want the days to end as soon as possible, that's a fact you can take to the bank.

I never said that the person who hamemrs Mastin is town. You are putting words in my mouth. I just said that they weren't more likely scum than anyone else.
I still think the hammer is a null tell, and you have not explained to me why it is not. To me it seems like you are saying: "Oh, you are right in principle (the first paragraph), but I am ignoring half of the stuff (the second paragraph)." To me it seems you just don't want to back out of your accusation now; it does not seem rational to me.

---

Oh, and you still did not explain why town would not want to hammer Mastin.

Yeah, I read your quote. Scum may get on the wagon early. The scum may be lurking to victory, too, meaning all of this crap about Mastin is moot.

I'm not going to account for every possibility. Just because the scum may have been the first to start the wagon on Mastin doesn't mean that the person who hammers Mastin is town. Scum want the days to end as soon as possible, that's a fact you can take to the bank.

I 100% agree, I can't really imagine or see reasoning behind town hammering Mastin.

Where is the difference between hammering and voting?

May I ask why you display this anti-town attitude?

(Not taking a player serious is anti-town obv., as input by that player will be neglected.)

Out of everything I psoted that was game relevant you chose to pick out a joke line I threw in there. That's what I can't take seriously.

a) I won't answer all of the points made by all the palyers. This is obvious.
b) I did not even accuse you of anything. Why so picky? I did not say "hewitt is scum" and neither did I say "hewitt is not posting game relevant stuff, look here:".

---

Red Coyote's 641 sums up a lot of my attitudes as well given the current situations on King, Tar's analysis, Hewitt's viewpoints, and Zu's confusing play.

How is my play confusing? Also, have you taken in account my rebuttal of RC's points? His answer to my rebuttal? My answers to that? Does not seem like it.

[zu_Faul]

Also, White Castle ---> The JOAT can reveal himself on D1 because that means that a medic role should be alive and can protect him at night while he uses one of his 1-shot abilities. All JOAT are confirmed townies (unless of course they're lying about it in the first place). I've never been in a game where the JOAT was anti-town... the Mod would have to be one evil SOB to pull that one.

No, not all JOAT are confirmed townies.
Another prime example of TTOTM.


@RedCoyote: I agree that in an ideal world town would want to keep discussing until 1 second before deadline and scum would want to end the day as early as possible (yes, this ideal world opens itself up to a lot of WIFOM, I know).
I agree with you that scum want shorter days than townies even in our world. But I'd rather interprete that as "everyone not voting mastin is not scum" than as "whoever hammers Mastin is scum", as everyone not on the mastin wagon makes this day longer. @ Everyone: Please keep in mind that I said "rather". I think that we are not having a lot of meaningful discussion and that we have to get mastin out of the way before we can begin that. So it would not be too bad for scum if this day gets longer, as this Day is not that helpful for Town.


@King: Even though mastin is not lynched yet, you should still pay attention to what is said today, as it may come up and be important later.

I think mastin should be given the opportunity to catch up, and unless he brings something gamebreaking to the table, he should be lynched.

Yes, but doesn't this contradict what you said of "Mastin's lynch gives us no information"? Can't you see that a Mastin lynch would give us information?

Please explain what information we will gain from a Mastin lynch.

We will see people reluctant to end the day, which may both be a town and a scum tell, depending on the way they bring it across. We may see people heavily push for a lynch of mastin, etc.
Remember it is not just

what

is said, but more importantly

how

it is said.

Where is the difference between hammering and voting?

Hammering is the concious decision by a single player to end the day and end all conversation/speculations/observations about a player with a large amount of votes. A vote that's not a hammer does not end anything, hammering ends a lot.

My question was a bit off. It should have been: "What is the difference between voting and hammering from scum's perspective?"
Anyway, while what you said is true, a vote is far more stealthy, and scum like stealth. I don't see the benefits scum would have by choosing hammer over "normal" vote.

a) I won't answer all of the points made by all the palyers. This is obvious.
b) I did not even accuse you of anything. Why so picky? I did not say "hewitt is scum" and neither did I say "hewitt is not posting game relevant stuff, look here:".

a) You don't have to, I just don't understand why you would pick out a joke line instead of something else that's game relevant.
b) ... I didn't say you were accusing me of anything. You have to be picky in games like this and I would rather you were conversing with me about something game relevant rather than something that was not.

Aren't we talking about game relevant stuff? I think we are, more than most other players in this game. Excuse me for having a little fun at your expense.

[zu_Faul]

TTOTM = Trying To Outguess The Mod

[zu_Faul]

Mod-Edit Votecount 1-40

Mastin - 12

(Caboose, zu_Faul, Empking's Alt, orangepenguin, zoraster, King, Phoebus, AceMarksman, StevieT92, Zer0ph34r, Amished, Azhrei)

OrangePenguin - 4

(cateraction, Maturin24, Mastin, Tarhalindur)

Zer0ph34r - 1

(ryan2754)

Tarhalindur - 1

(zwetschenwasser)

Phoebus - 1

(RedCoyote)

Caboose - 1

(hewitt)

AceMarksman - 1

(NanooktheWolf

Kise - 1

(White Castle)

Not Voting - 5

(alvinz95, Dust, killa seven, Devestation, Kise)

With 27 alive, it takes 14 to lynch.

---

At deadline, if I'm around and we need one more to a lynch, I won't hesitate to vote for whichever is higher.

So you'll avoid any responsibility.

That would also ensure that the people not doing anything that *are* on the Mastin wagon do something tomorrow and if Mastin is right about the number of scum on his wagon we should be able to find a bunch of them through that.

Why should Mastin be right on that number? That makes no sense that we should be able to find scum through an estimation a player gave us.

However, if OPengy/somebody else is closer to a lynch nearing deadline, I'll vote for them instead as we do not want or need a no-lynch.

This again sounds like "I'll vote on whomever you guys decide".

Personally, if it comes down to deadline, I will join whatever non-Mastin wagon gets going (lurkers preferably, as I have already explained why lurkers are good early day lynches in big games)

Same. With the addition of not wanting to lynch Mastin, which says nothing about his alignment. The comment on lurkers is almost worthless, as there is no one lurker wagon going. Ryan could have pushed it there, but did not.

Coupled with the fact that you are always telling people to scumhunt, without doing any relevant scumhunting yourself, you deserve my

FoS: ryan2754

. Though his points on zerophear are being reasonable.

Well that was a bit out of the box. I believe Mastin's target is OP, if Dev is telling the truth.

Dev confirmed I can't win 'til tomorrow. I'm pushing for OP's lynch today, and he's the leading bandwagon other than my own. Again, that'd kinda be bad play if he were my target, wouldn't it?

THe list Mastin gave was BS, Red was a lurker as well up to that point, he should have been "easy".

Take a look at the pre-game thread, Zu. I listed my admiration of Red Coyote then. As well as listing his skill as an epicmafia player. I instantly qualified him as hard. Lurking was just a bonus charge I could add to the reasons I chose to investigate Red in the scenario where I was planning to claim cop d2. (Never happened. And I don't think it would've. Had I gotten scum lynched and not been outed, I don't think I would've been able to live through a night with some pretty Pissed off scum on my back. )

That still should not make anyone think that RedCoyote really is your target. You can have

easily

planned all of this from the start as a fake.

Mastin, you are a huge smoke screen for the scum.

Correct, Zu. By trying to get rid of me day one, the scum are basically riding the easy bandwagon, thinking there will be no consequences from it.

No, you are a smokescreen because you make everything around you halt. Scum can jsut as easily hide not being on your wagon.

He would be a bad honorary townie.

If I tried to get Red lynched, sure.

Hahahahahaha. Why should you try to get RedCoyote lynched?

I still think the hammer is a

null

scum tell

Seriously, town should want to discuss.

Scum want nights to kill town.

Hence, those who want night are scum.

Simple reasoning, really.

LOL. I don't even know where this WIFOM starts and where it ends. It is not like this day is particularly benefical to town. Also, please stop smearing other people's names.

[zu_Faul]

Orangepenguin's posts were obv jokes.

THE comment that caught my eye - I've found that jokes are a scumtell, defending a player by calling their comments jokes even moreso (case in point: scotmany12, Medieval Mafia)

Especially at the beginning of the game some players, who don't want to yell "I've found 7 scumz!!11" by the end of page 2 (ATTENTION: hyperbole) start the game by making off-topic comments or jokes. I find nothing scummy with that. I often do off-topic comments in my games regardless of alignment.

Vote:Mastin

Based off of nothing more than regretting signing up for this mess?!?

-S^1, + F, Zu, for bandwagoning off of such poor reasoning.

Causation != Correlation.

What was your original reason for voting him, then?

Walls of text, if I remember correctly.

Mastin: As it *is* the RVS in a 30 person game in my opinion

No. No, it is not.
I got us out of it immediately.
Any vote at this point is likely serious.

Yes, you are the sole judge of when the rvs ends. You can cast a spell on the game and RVS ends immediately. That's what you are doing there. You are using your definition of RVS so that it is convenient for you, but your definition is flawed. There are several people who have not even posted yet. If it was one or two, ok, but there are still like 5 or 6. Maybe now we are starting to make real arguments, but on page 4? I don't think so.

OMG, why don't you just google it yourself.

The fluff post from Zu when the RVS is over has been noted.

See above. I did not think the RVS was over then.

Last time I saw you (Mini 716 - you were town there, I should note), you were arguing that the random voting stage didn't exist. Now you argue that it does exist and should be extensive. What gives?

Mini 716 was much time ago. Also I used a strict definition of RVS then: No vote is truly random. What I meant with RVS in this game is the phase in which off-topic comments and jokes more frequently happens and we have nothing or very limited information to go with.

Mastin and Dev are lyncher tag-team. Considering the size of the game this could be appropriate. Posts like this:

just a thought. How does Red being the target CLEAR him? Are all lynchee's townies or what?

just reinforce this belive.
Well that was a bit out of the box. I believe Mastin's target is OP, if Dev is telling the truth.
THe list Mastin gave was BS, Red was a lurker as well up to that point, he should have been "easy".

2) Note setup speculation - not because it's scummy on its own, but to call back to in later posts.

You should acknowledge that I did not push this point further and did not make any accusations because of it, making it much different from some of the speculation in this thread. I even mark it as "out of the box". That was just so after the agame, in the inprobable case I was right, I can go "I told you so". Yeah, that's pretty silly.

I rather have a real townie than a "honorary" one.

There's a great deal of potential in leaving Mastin alive that we throw away if we lynch him. That's the single most important reason why he should be left alive.

I don't get this. Why are we not wasting potential if we lynch someone else?

OrangePenguin seems not very scummy to me.

I am up to page 19.

I assume Red Coyote trusts his analytical skills (with the obvious exception that he'll try to paint his target as scummy if he's lying about it being Red Coyote), since that's a major reason I've favored not lynching Mastin until tomorrow.

There is no reason mastin should not lie. It is greatly beneficial to him if he does. So I'll assume he does.

Hmm. Thinking about Selective Scumhunting just brought something to mind:

Mastin, way to tunnel this early on. I wouldn't be surprised if the real scum are sitting back, enjoying that you're taking all the heat for them. I am not sure about your wagon being scum driven. I mean,

I doubt your partners are on you, but most of them are scum?

I really doubt it. I mean, there could be 1 or 2, but I know that I am not scum. You shouldn't be so close minded this early on. You're not going to get anywhere, if you already think you've won when half the players haven't posted yet.

I commented earlier that something about the logic on this post - specifically, the underlined sentence in the post - wasn't making sense.

I just realized how it *would* make sense - if there are 2 Mafias in the game, and orangepenguin was saying that he thought that the other members of Mastin's Mafia weren't on his wagon and that only a few of the *other* Mafia was on his wagon.

But then, how would orangepenguin know that there are two Mafias (if there are even two Mafias) unless he was in one of those Mafias himself? Maybe a really odd power role, but I doubt it...

It's not damning without evidence that there are two Mafias in the setup... but it's quite damning indeed should that evidence appear later.

Setup speculation at its best. Trying to outguess the mod again. You are assuming something very specific about the scum role pms.

FoS: Tarhalindur and StewieT92

StewieT92 agrees with Tar on this. He is making the same scummy move.

1) Setup speculation? Assuming that there's multiscum? Try "this is why you should look into orangepenguin if and only if it's proved that we have multiscum" - his logic was not consistent with believing that there was a single scum faction (if there's only one scum faction and Mastin is part of it, then why would there be scum on Mastin at all?). This drew my attention considerably earlier, in fact - before I considered multiscum:

I still don't get why a town player should not believe that there are two scum factions.

Mastin, way to tunnel this early on. I wouldn't be surprised if the real scum are sitting back, enjoying that you're taking all the heat for them. I am not sure about your wagon being scum driven.

I mean, I doubt your partners are on you, but most of them are scum?

I really doubt it. I mean, there could be 1 or 2, but I know that I am not scum. You shouldn't be so close minded this early on. You're not going to get anywhere, if you already think you've won when half the players haven't posted yet.

Something's BADLY wrong about this post - that underlined sentence isn't making any sense to me - but I'm not sure what. My intuition is telling me that there's an assumption in that sentence that I haven't thought of yet, and that assumption comes from a scum mindset. The problem is, I haven't thought of what that assumption IS.

2) Assuming something specific about role PMs? How do you get that from my post?
[/quote]
To me it seemed like you think it was explicitely said in the role pm that there are two factions. You try to refute that:

My best guess is that you assumed that the only way scum would be able to figure out whether it's multiscum is their group name, which is wrong - scum can divine a great deal about the setup given only the number of scum (which is always given to scum, in the form of knowing who their partners are - possibly minus a traitor or two), the roles of their partners and themselves (usually either given in the role PM or shared pregame), and an elementary knowledge of game balance (which is almost always safe to outguess the mod on, because imbalanced games lead to blowback against the mod unless they're really fun).

But this does not take into account the fact that there could be a varying number of power roles, neutral roles (like... lyncher) etc.

More to the point, why would orangepenguin automatically assume multiscum over, say, 1 5-man Mafia + SK + a neutral or two as town? He's argued that he thought game size was enough to assume that, but I disagree - I've seen several very large games with only scum + SK + neutrals/Cult.

Why should he assume the other way round? This is the important question you have to answer accusing him. You have not delivered an answer to that.

Pray, can someone tell me where this idea of masons recruiting people came up?

if you're all being hypothetical... that's pretty unproductive. not to mention profligate on the posts which may well lead to nothing at all...

...Who are you???

Lol

Yes, this deserved a post of its own.

<snipped mod edit>

And why is that, exactly?

I think Phoebus was one of the top 5 posters on here not too long ago. This is what I found hilarious.
Also, to answer a valid point with "...Who are you???" is neither nice, nor productive. It is not like Phoebus came out of the blue.

Let me make one thing clear: OrangePenguin is also setup speculating when he says it is probable that there are two scum factions. But he only brought it up because he was specifically asked. Before that, he did not use it as an argument.

BULLSHIT. I direct you again to orangepenguin's original post:

Mastin, way to tunnel this early on. I wouldn't be surprised if the real scum are sitting back, enjoying that you're taking all the heat for them. I am not sure about your wagon being scum driven. I mean,

I doubt your partners are on you, but most of them are scum?

I really doubt it. I mean, there could be 1 or 2, but I know that I am not scum. You shouldn't be so close minded this early on. You're not going to get anywhere, if you already think you've won when half the players haven't posted yet.

This post makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE if you assume that orangepenguin is referring to a single Mafia faction. NONE. Especially not when he admits later that he was assuming that there are two Mafias.

Given that post and his admission that he was assuming two Mafias at the time, orangepenguin WAS setup speculating (implicitly rather than explicitly, but the point still stands), contrary to your assertion.

You are right. My point now also stands against OP.

Note: I don't consider orangepenguin's setup speculation by itself damning - I consider the implicit, unforced assumption (later admitted) that there were two scum factions in the setup damning.

How are those different though from the other unforced assumptions made by several people?

Note: While I've been assuming 1 Mafia because I hadn't seen any reason to assume otherwise up to this point, if orangepenguin is Mafia we're almost certainly dealing with multiscum.

Tar is doing it again.

Care to explain what business a town player has assuming multiscum unforced (as shown above by that orangepenguin quote you ignored) without game state evidence?

See above. Why should he suspect single scum etc.

The only evidence *I* see for multiscum is that orangepenguin is assuming it, hence why I qualified that if and only if orangepenguin is scum (with access to the number of scum in his faction and presumably their roles, which is sufficient information to make a good estimate of the game state) then we are likely looking at two scum factions.

I concede that if OP is scum, the possibility for two scum factions is heigthend.

Oh and it's hammer time

VOTE: MASTIN

He's defending himself wayyy too hard, and not really using good logic. That makes him worth a lynch because his intentions are still unclear to me.

Hey, my gambit worked! Die opportunistic scum!

Unvote; Vote: StevieT92

What? Why would only scum want to hammer Mastin??

Long days tend to hurt the scum; hammering shuts down discussion.

That said, zwet is wrong and the attempted quickhammer is a null tell, but that's because I've seen it from town enough to know better than to assume it comes from scum.

I've said it in the psot before that one; this is just open to so much wifom it is not funny; also like you said, there can be other reasons to wanting to shorten the day apart from being scum. But I don't think we need to discuss this further as we agree that it is a null tell. My reply here was for other players than Tarhalindur.

[zu_Faul]

For my sanity, I am doing a pbp of OP before this day ends.

[zu_Faul]

I was agreeing with you there.

[zu_Faul]

I am watching the lurking/staying low players. Actually I think most of our scum are among those atm.
You argued for zerophear once some time ago. It is not like you were pushing it further. I would have liked to see that. As it stands it seems like you try to look townish, while in reality you aren't. Lurking players don't have this cover.
I do look at other wagons, but no I see no wagon beating the mastin wagon in importance. A difference in opinion does not make us other players lazy/stupid. I am posting my opinions on other players and AM scumhunting.

[zu_Faul]

OrangePenguin - 4 (cateraction, Maturin24, Mastin, Tarhalindur)

Tar - Mafia Goon
Mastin - Lyncher

That bodes well for my wagon.


Tarhalindur,

a mafia goon

...

Usually, when there is more than one faction, the mod usually indicates that..

Hmm..

More speculation. It could still be Mafia and Werewolves as a second scum group; or Mafia vs. anything.

I also have a strong dislike for RedCoyote's speculation. Gunsmith? Hunter? The kill types help

nothing

with that; it is all baseless speculation.

You have to remember that scum are as clueless as we are at this point (except they know one kill for sure). It would not be too bad if they are kept in the dark, in regards to the kills.

What I think is way more important now is going back and finding connections of other players to Tarhalindur.

[zu_Faul]

This infomation could have been useful later on... Why not wait at least until the end of Day 2? We could have caught lying scum...

[zu_Faul]

I also have a strong dislike for RedCoyote's speculation. Gunsmith? Hunter? The kill types help nothing with that; it is all baseless speculation.

?

What do you mean? You don't think it's important information that one of the deaths was because of "stabbing"? I think it's helpful information, and I think these are potential roles that could be involved if we have killing roles without guns (e.g. fists and knifes).

Note what the mod replied to your first post:

[k7]

ran towards the police station

Might just be pure flavor, but it might imply that there is at least one Cop around town?

Also, welcome jeromus! I hope you got a chance to read over some of D1.

Flavour is meant to be flavour - I did not intentionally hint at anything.

On Mafiascum, mods almost never give additional information in flavour.

Additionally, outing roles at this point is bad for town.

Additionally, a Gunsmith or Hunter would also have been viable would the kill conditions all have been shots, even if, which is not true, the mod included hints. Seriously, your speculation is baseless.

[zu_Faul]

I was asked about how it worked, so I told em.

So you played right into the hands of fishing scum.

I think Tarhalinder aint that daft... More likely Dust or Amished are buddies and he's left himself an opening in case he needs to bus them

I don't think Tarhalindur is that daft.

[zu_Faul]

For my sanity, I am doing a pbp of OP before this day ends.

I have not forgotten about this.
Alvinz ended the day quite suddenly, so I could not do it.

[zu_Faul]

Vote: RedCoyote

[zu_Faul]

zu_Faul- Its a one shot ability. The mafia might be able to take all the data they want from rolefishing, but they won't be able to use it to work out tomorrow nights actions.

The second quote was in reply to Hewitts third quote in post 1057. Are you replying in agreement or in disagreement?

1) Yeah, but this way we can't catch fakeclaiming scum.

2) Disagreeing strongly with you.

[zu_Faul]

Mod-Edit Votecount 2-4

cateraction - 3

(Kise, orangepenguin, StevieT92)

RedCoyote - 3

(Phoebus, Zu_Faul, Zer0ph34r)

Zer0ph34r - 3

(Caboose, ryan2754, RedCoyote)

Kise - 1

(zoraster)

hewitt - 1

(Empking's Alt)

Caboose - 1

(hewitt)

Not Voting - 10

(Everyone)

With 22 alive, it takes 12 to lynch.

V/LA:
-orangepenguin - 18th of June

---

Vote: RedCoyote

Why? I can't see RC as scum at the moment if for no other reason that he was mastin's lynch target. I've never seen anyone but a pro town player being a lynchee (sans bastard mod games).

*headdesk*

You still believe Mastin told the truth? Your either daft or protecting RedCoyote for dishonest reasons.


Case on RedCoyote:

In his first post spoke much against Amished. Then listed about a dozen players whom he liked to be lynched, but Amished was not there. Amished never replied to this post, but RedCoyote did not push it. Possible scum pairing.

Evading questions:

You did not explain why town would not want to hammer Mastin.

You don't agree that scum want the day to end as soon as possible? Scum don't want to appear to be scumhunting, there's more chances that they'll get caught.

Putting words in people's mouths:

Oh, and you still did not explain why town would not want to hammer Mastin.

Yeah, I read your quote. Scum may get on the wagon early. The scum may be lurking to victory, too, meaning all of this crap about Mastin is moot.

I'm not going to account for every possibility. Just because the scum may have been the first to start the wagon on Mastin doesn't mean that the person who hammers Mastin is town. Scum want the days to end as soon as possible, that's a fact you can take to the bank.

(I never said the person who hammewrs Mastin had to be town.)
When I later call him on that he does not respond.

I never said that the person who hamemrs Mastin is town. You are putting words in my mouth. I just said that they weren't more likely scum than anyone else.
I still think the hammer is a null tell, and you have not explained to me why it is not.

Do you or do you not agree with the principle that scum want shorter days? Especially when we (almost) know that the person being lynched is not scum. If you don't agree, then the hammer isn't going to be a tell to you in most scenarios anyways, and I'll drop the issue.

Well, RedCoyote never seems to respond to accusations. He did not respond to Phoebus accusation of Fishing (which I share) and he did not reply to my vote. He only replied to zerophear's vote with an OMGUS on a player who was (and is) heavily attacked. I take that as him not wanting to have the spotlight on his evil doings, hoping only a few people will notice. This is very scummy, especially coupled with the vote on zerophear.

Well, using that logic, why are we trying to lynch scum at all?

Why bother scumhunting when we have a Lyncher who can't win alive?

This seems pretty scummy to me. By leaving the lyncher alive, the scum have the advantage of having one more player who also wants town to mislynch. (Yesyes, mastin

allegedly

could not win D1, yadda yadda. If kept around to D2 those players opposing a mastin lynch could have said that we should lynch someone other than him.) [This is what Tar also wanted to do.]

Also the fact that Tar never once commented on RedCoyote. RedCoyote did often agree with Tar's post. He had no other relationship to Tar, other than applauding his posts. This is scummy; scum often ignore each other, in case one of them dies early, so that all the players looking for connections get worked up about other players.

Also, the useless speculation, ttotm and fishing on Day 2.

[zu_Faul]

Okay, so what do you think Tal's relationship with his town reads are?

Well part of this is in my latest post. I think those reads could later give evidence, but as a base for an accusation they are useless.

I think Tar was fully aware what the town reaction would be after he was killed; he probably knew that people would say that he was not that stupid to list his buddies as very strong town results. I think he was a step ahead. Therefore I think his "leaning town" reads are not allied to him.

[zu_Faul]

It is funny how all the people speculating about a vig yesterday now rush onto the Zero wagon.
I have absolutely no read on Zero, the chance of him being scum is random. He plays this way everygame. Can't we have him replaced?
The wagon is building way too quickly for my taste.

Sorry RedCoyote for the mistake in who voted whom first. It was a honest mistake.

I am going to respond to some of your points later on. I generally like your response.
I was trying to see how you react under pressure and if you'd react to a vote without any additional information. I'll leave that vote on you until I thoroughly analyze your response.
I hope that explains your question Nanook.

*headdesk*

You still believe Mastin told the truth? Your either daft or protecting RedCoyote for dishonest reasons.

This is a very WIFOM situation, but I think the fact that Mastin named RC as his target, while not confirming RC by any stretch of the imagination, at least is a positive towards RC being town.

No it is not WIFOM at all. Mastin could only win if he lied. So I assume he lied.

You still believe Mastin told the truth? Your either daft or protecting RedCoyote for dishonest reasons.

What reason would he have to lie if he was lynched? He can no longer win, zu.

After he was dead, he could no longer win. Then he also could no longer lie.
When he was alive, he could still win, but only by lieing to us. Therefore I'll assume he lied to us.

I don't get why this is so hard to understand....

@Amished: I buy that you were distracted. It was a long post.

[zu_Faul]

You still believe Mastin told the truth? Your either daft or protecting RedCoyote for dishonest reasons.

You think it's so unbelievable that he didn't? I've played with mastin before and I can tell when he is being sincere.

In my last post I said TWICE why I think so. I said so before at least one other time, I think it was even twice or thrice.

Your either daft or protecting RedCoyote for dishonest reasons.

Oh, and why is that huh? Is it not possible for me to think that RC is town? I don't like this statement at all.

Vote: Zu_fowl

Let's be exact. What you said:

Vote: RedCoyote

Why? I can't see RC as scum at the moment if for no other reason that he was mastin's lynch target. I've never seen anyone but a pro town player being a lynchee (sans bastard mod games).

Of course you may think he is town. But your reason (you said it was ONLY because he was Mastin's target) is so terribly weak. And I said why quite clearly. So you should not be confused.

I don't see how your vote is anything but OMGUS.

[zu_Faul]

In his first post spoke much against Amished. Then listed about a dozen players whom he liked to be lynched, but Amished was not there. Amished never replied to this post, but RedCoyote did not push it. Possible scum pairing.

Hm, this is either delibrately taking me out of context or it is just adding noise to make it look like you have more on me than you do.

For those playing at home, zu is essentially saying here that I had something to say about Amish, but didn't follow through with it.

Cause following is easier than leading. That and Mastin looks like he knows what he's about.

Hate this post.

Hmm, two mistakes (lack of preview for image fail, and not counting my vote). Clearly Mastin is lying about everything. LALiars, *ESPECIALLY* in random stage....

So... uh... he

doesn't

know what he's talking about now?

[...]

And I viewed page 2 to still be in the RVS. You posting a lot doesn't immediately get us anywhere, the game is a gradual process, and page 2 in a 27 player game is still part of the RVS in my eyes. Difference of opinion I guess.

I hate that excuse so much. "I thought it was still in RVS!" I took both of your votes, on Mastin and on Dust, seriously.

Your "better than thou" tone in response to Nanook, as well as your statement on "focusing our attention on scumhunting" in ISO 20 is crap as well. The majority of us are here to scumhunt. We do not need you to make us focused on our task at hand. If you weren't here, would we be unable to scumhunt? No.

I wouldn't go so far as to call Mastin elitist, which is what Amish is implying, but I do agree that scumhunting will continue as planned with or without Mastin's intervention.

But he conveniently skips over the fact that these things occurred

during

my read-through of the game, meaning I'm still constantly adjusting for input as I continue down the thread. I'll clarify this point even more by quoting myself again, later in the same post,

I love how you say meta will not work on you but then you proceed to link to other completed games and then say *again* that metagaming you won't work. Great work there.

Oh, this is good. This is good, Amish.

Mastin, isn't this a two-way street? You use meta to make your points, but you've said multiple times that it "doesn't work" when trying to read you?

This isn't sarcasm, so zu probably just missed this. I'm a little surprised zu didn't take the time to ask me my opinion on Amish before making the claim that he's my scumpartner, but it seems as though he's reading me through scum-tinted lenses anyway.

To address the point though, I thought Amish's responses later on in the game were town-sounding and fine. I'm certainly not going to quote every post I think is acceptable, only posts that stick out or ones that I have questions on. In that post specifically, when I was covering twelve pages of information, I don't need to quote every post.

This is why Amish wasn't on my list, while so many other players were.

It did not seem so clear from the original post. It was 2 very bad points and one very good, which seemed weird after your sprayed your accusations all around.

Evading questions

Alvinz flip notwithstanding, town, in general, like nice, long days. zu may or may not agree with this, but this is a direct response to his question to why a townie wouldn't have wanted to hammer Mastin.

Some people put limits on discussion, some people say not all discussion is beneficial to town... etc. I have no idea what position zu takes, these are theoretical discussions, but there's no way that the question was "evaded" in any sense of the word.

I asked: Why would Town not want to hammer?
You answered: Scum like short days.
This is not a complete answer.

Only now did you fully answer. And yeah, to some extend I disagree with your theory (the empirical data seems to somewhat favour my side as well).

Putting words in people's mouths

[...]

(I never said the person who hammewrs Mastin had to be town.)

I didn't accuse you of doing so... even the quote that

you

provided shows no evidence of me calling you out for that. I said that the person who hammers Mastin didn't have to be town, irrespective of your position on the matter.

I'll quote the central sentence:

Just because the scum may have been the first to start the wagon on Mastin doesn't mean that the person who hammers Mastin is town.

I said: Hammering is a nulltell.
You said: You are wrong. The one who hammers is not necessarily town.

"Irrespective of your position on the matter"? That sounded different back then.

When I later call him on [the person hammering doesn't have to be town] he does not respond.

If [zu doesn't] agree, then the hammer isn't going to be a tell to [him] in most scenarios anyways, and I'll drop the issue.

MISQUOTE! It should be:

When I later call him on [putting words in my mouth] he does not respond.

The meaning should have been obvious, as I had in in the quote below.

Anyway, that is not answering to my accusation.

I said: You are putting words in my mouth.
You said: Oh, if you don't agree, I can't convince you otherwise.

What the hell? o.O

He did not respond to Phoebus accusation of Fishing (which I share)

Kind of like how Caboose and Phoebus never responded when I called them out for lining up lynches yesterday, zu?

Yes, exactly like that. That does not make you any less scummy though.

I see no reason to comment on it because I don't consider analyzing information learned by deaths as rolefishing. I pointed out that one player was shot, another stabbed, and another was "ambushed". This, to me, suggested the possible presence of roles like a Gunsmith or a Hunter. I think, as town, it's important that we're all on the same page with that information. To me this also suggests we have at least two scum groups, one of which is using a knife rather than a gun. Maybe this is also rolefishing, but I tend to think it's rather townie to talk about how the deaths are being committed and what implications they have for us. I'll admit to this, and if someone wants to suspect me for doing this, then that's their perogative.

a) The original accusation was for your Copfishing.
b) Of course it is fishing if you say: "Does anyone believe we have a cop/gunsmith/hunter?"
c) More baseless speculation.
d) Why don't we massclaim, so we are all on the same page with that information? [/sarcasm]

he did not reply to my vote

I don't think it has any traction, and I don't think you have a solid case.

Zer0, contrarily, is notably emotional, defensive, self-interested, and, in general, has been of little use this game so far.

I don't like how you point to other players.

This seems pretty scummy to me. By leaving the lyncher alive, the scum have the advantage of having one more player who also wants town to mislynch.

There it is again. This is what absolutely fueled my "non-Mastin" voting yesterday, this mentality right here. This fear of using our lynch because we could potentially mislynch.

No. Not the fear we made mislynch. The knowledge that we were more likely to mislynch with him alive.

Yesyes, mastin

allegedly

could not win D1, yadda yadda.

If you think Dev is lying, why are you not pushing him? I'd say him being able to predict Mastin as a Lyncher practically confirms him... this quote implies that you still doubt Dev's role.

Devastation could still be a Mafia Role Cop. Not likely, no pushing.

This is scummy; scum often ignore each other, in case one of them dies early, so that all the players looking for connections get worked up about other players.

So I was distancing from Tar but buddying with Amish? I have a pretty complex scum-sided playstyle, zu.

It is just like zoraster said. It is not complex at all.
Besically, if you have three or four partners I think it is incredibly unlikely that you'd react to all of them in the same way.

[zu_Faul]

BTW, I'm not Mastin. I am overcompensating, because I will be gone almost two weeks starting Saturday.

[zu_Faul]

Prod:
3. Maturin24 - TBR
9. jeromus Dust
15. Phoebus
24. Caboose
27. orangepenguin

[zu_Faul]

You still believe Mastin told the truth? Your either daft or protecting RedCoyote for dishonest reasons.

You think it's so unbelievable that he didn't? I've played with mastin before and I can tell when he is being sincere.

Actually though, what possible reasons would he have for lying about his game? He was pretty much caught, it really wouldn't have benefited him at all to lie.

I don't believe this. No, I really don't.

Just for you, I'll say it again: Lying was the only way for Mastin to be able to win.

[zu_Faul]

Just for you, I'll say it again: Lying was the only way for Mastin to be able to win.

It's statements like this from zu_Faul that make him look scummy. From my perspective, mastin had already given up on winning early in day one. He told the truth about his (antitown) role early, so what reason would he have for lying about his lynch target?

What is scummy about this?

Anyway, if he lied about his lyncher role we probably would have lynched him anyway to test Devastation. If he admitted he was a lyncher and gave a false target he could have won if he was kept around longer.

[zu_Faul]

Amished and zu_faul should probably be replaced too, along with the others if they don't pick up their prods.

I'll refer to my signature...

All of them, except Phoebus, have posted elsewhere since their last post here.

If I had it would at least have been on the same day. Seriously, I want to play this game, and I think I have shown my desire to.



Ok, I am back, sort of. I have some private issues, which are so important, that I can't read all of the posts made in my absesne thoroughly. I will make up for it on Day 3. I'll skim the last few pages and then decide on a vote. I did miscalculate the deadline. I thoguht I still had a week to catch up.

[zu_Faul]

OK, was surprised to onoly see 7 pages. Working throught them now.

I have absolutely no read on Zero, the chance of him being scum is random. He plays this way everygame. Can't we have him replaced?

I've never heard of this. Is it common practice in Large games to have active players replaced who have a strange playstyle?

No. I am jsut terribly annyoed by him, it is not fun.

After he was dead, he could no longer win. Then he also could no longer lie.
When he was alive, he could still win, but only by lieing to us. Therefore I'll assume he lied to us.

He had plenty of opportunity at L-1 and L-2, when other players made their intentions clear (e.g. WC) that they were going to vote him. Mastin, I think, realized he was going to be lynched, despite his efforts, and that's why he stopped posting.

What reason would he have had for lying to us then? After he realized he was going to be lynched I mean.

I don't get this. You said he stopped posting when he realised he was gone. I agree with this. This does not make make what he said befreo any more or less true.

Of course you may think he is town. But your reason (you said it was ONLY because he was Mastin's target) is so terribly weak. And I said why quite clearly. So you should not be confused.

How is Ace's meta on Mastin any different than your meta on Zer0?

Meta on a lyncher?
Also, Zer0 has the exact style everytime. It is much stricter than usual.

Addressed above. I didn't claim you were calling the hammer town, because I knew you said it was a null tell. If it's a null tell, I think we should default the position toward the theory on longer/shorter days, giving Stevie at least a slight scumread for me.

This is not what I meant by null tell. Actually, then it is not a null tell if you "default" to a slight scumread. I think that this is just a minsunderstatement and you are not actually that bad a logic.

c) More baseless speculation.
d) Why don't we massclaim, so we are all on the same page with that information?

c) It's speculative to say "player X" died of an Ambush and "player Y" died of a gunshot? Are you serious? That's important information. Dev has made it clear that he killed Tar, the town was only able to figure that out because of this so-called "baseless speculation".
d) That's my point though, this is where you and Phoebus have your definitions out of whack. Obviously I don't want a massclaim, but I'm also not saying that ryan, for example. sounds like a town Cop because of Jebus' flavor.

That's

rolefishing and

that's

baseless speculation. Saying that someone died from a stab and someone died from a gunshot means there is likely an anti-town force at work without a gun, that is not rolefishing. If that was rolefishing, then any analysis of the night actions at all would be counterproductive. [/quote]

The thing is, you are analysing the

flavour

, not the actions. We were able to figure out what happened to Tarhalindur, because Devastation claimed it, not because of your speculation. This is a great claim you make, but it is not true at all.

The knowledge that we were more likely to mislynch with him alive.

Why? Why would you let his opinion have any influence on your decision?

I wouldn't, but I don't trust the other players in the game to do the same.

---

How exactly does the ambush work exactly? What are the actual game rules/mechanics behind it?

zu, is this baseless?

This is asking Devastation for role info. This is not the same stuff you did.

I think that the answer to ryan5656's question is as much beneficial to scum as it is to town. This makes him slightly scummier in my opinion. I still think Devastation should/could have waited at least until later in the day.

I've never heard of any sort of souped-up SK. I very much think Dev is still confirmed town, and I'm honestly not sure why this is being brought back up for discussion. zu mentioned he was possibly a mafia-sided Cop, but do they get the actual role information? That doesn't sound right.

What? Never had a powered-up SK? I thought you had experience.

Why would a scum cop get different information than a pro-town cop?

Who agrees with Nanook in that it's a good idea to NOT state your reasoning behind your vote when you cast your vote, and then only give your reasoning once people ask of it?

Sometimes it is beneficial to give your reasons later. Often people have already gone "OMG WTF!? POST REASONZ PLX!1!" before you can share your reasons, and often even before the person who was voted had responded.

I think all the players not voting someone on ~page 50 are quite oppurtunistic. They look scummy in my eyes. Thos V/LA less so.

I just saw a thing.. Thank you mod, for not adding mine or Azrhei's V/LA to the votecount but Hewitt's.

I'm only human - It's likely that if it's not bolded, I won't see it all the time (and if it was, sorry - I missed it D: )

Today is not dead because of mastin's demise. It is because we have so many people who are gone, and some people with V/LA. Yesterday this was shrouded by mastin. The end of yesterday was ok. Remember that we also lost 4 people over night, who were somewhat active on average.

Epic fail.

Unvote, Vote: Caboose

For the exact same reasons I've always had. AND, on top of that, picking up prods and making the decision to not respond to the accusations and thoughts against him and not contributing anything in this game. I hate floater scum.

You had the oppurtunity to start a farily competent wagon on AceMarksman, but did not wait long enough, to just to zero-vote Caboose?
I think there is a majority of players who want someone else than zer0p3ar lynched.

Actually the cases on AceMarksman sounded all very good. I'll make sure for myself in short time.

I am also not dead set against voting zer0. I jsut think we can accomplish more with a better vote. My resistance to voting him is slim though.

[zu_Faul]

Ah, sorry. I thought the question was directed at Devastation, as this is an unusual ability. If this was just a general question, the question is not scummy.

I don't know how it works, though I have a suspicion.

[zu_Faul]

BTW, deadline extension gives me a bit moretime to think about my vote.
AceMarksman needs to reply and answer some questions.
For example if the only reason for his vote is that I attacked RedCoyote.

[zu_Faul]

Unvote

The RedCoyote wagon is leading nowhere. Also, he has answered to my points in a manner which I think is quite pro-townish. There were some misunderstandings. I am not totally sold on him being town, though.

Vote: AceMarksman

Lurking (on D1, not now; though his post up there, responding to only one of the points made against him/the questions he was asked, looks quite lurkerish. like he wants to slow it down so deadline saves him),

Also, where is tarhalindur? I really would like to hear what he thinks of this game.

classic scum posting (calling out the lurking partner to look better).

He fails to acknowledge my position, regarding the possibility of RedCoyote being scum. His vote has not been explained. I don't want to speculate on the reason. I said: "RedCoyote looks like scum, and those are the reasons, and those are the reasons why I don't believe mastin's claim was trutzhful." And he has gone: RedCoyote can't be scum. This makes you look scummy. Vote." And I totally don't see how saying: "Lying was the only way for Mastin to win." is scummy.

Tarhalindur suggesting him as a likely

real

target for Mastin looks a lot like scum protecting his buddy. Tarhalindur protecting his buddy this way is much more probable then hiding him in a list of people he thinks look pro-town (the lsit which was discussed earlier).

The relationship with Tarhalindur is already enough to warrant my vote I think.

[zu_Faul]

Oi, did not see the redcoyote post up there. responding now.

[zu_Faul]

You said he stopped posting when he realised he was gone. I agree with this. This does not make make what he said befreo any more or less true.

If we both agree that Mastin realized he was the lynch, that his fate was sealed, then what reason did he have to lie at that point?

Then we have a different opinion of the timing. I think (and thought you said) that as soon as he realised he had lost, he stopped posting, and before that still tried to win.

Meta on a lyncher?

Well, Ace still has a more unique perspective than either of us, having played with him prior to this game.

I'll concede that. Still, I'll rather trust that Mastin actually followed the rules and palyed to win. Meta's not perfect. I'd like to see links to the games he played with mastin prior to this. If it was only a game or true the meta is less significant than if he had twenty games with him.
Everyone note, this is totally independent of my case against AceMarksman.

The thing is, you are analysing the

flavour

, not the actions.

It likely would have had an effect on my analysis of any hypothetical Cop claim in the future had I not brought it up.

Well, if you are cured now :p Do you see my point? That you were analysing flavour?

I wouldn't, but I don't trust the other players in the game to do the same.

Who?

Several of them. I don't want to make a list. Also, there where some players who were apparently buddies with him, and I thought that could cloud their judgments. As I think it happened with AceMarksman protecting you.

What? Never had a powered-up SK? I thought you had experience.

Why would a scum cop get different information than a pro-town cop?

I've heard of an SK with the ability to survive a gunshot, but I was under the impression that Large

Normal

games don't have anything screwy going on with the roles, in general.

Because you said that there was a possibility Dev was a mafia-sided Cop, and if that's the case, I would ask how he was able to figure out specific role information about Mastin (e.g. his win condition).

Sorry for the tone which I guess was a bit insulting.
Well, to be honest, I have not played too many Large Normals. But if a SK is already powered up in a Mini or a small Theme game, in a game with 27 players he should at least not be weaker. I would not even call a SK with a one-shot NK immunity "screwy".

Devastation could be a role cop in my opinion. Not an alignment cop. A role which would be a very good fit for a mafia cop actually.

I think there is a majority of players who want someone else than zer0p3ar lynched.

I disagree, I think the only reason he hasn't been lynched is because of inactivity.

You may be right. The activity is frighteningly low since I returned, even considering weekend. Actually, I think it is kind of hard to say right now who of us is right. I won't insist on my opinion.


I'd love zer0ph3ar to scumhunt as well, instead of jsut sitting on his vote.

[zu_Faul]

First of all, Amished, are you honestly calling me scummy because many people voted for me?

Did you even read his post?

[zu_Faul]

Tar suggested that AceMarksman should be the lynchee.

[zu_Faul]

@ Mod: Please prod everyone, as deadline is only a day away

[zu_Faul]

I don't think he has claimed.
I also counted 11 votes on him.

Thanks for the massprod.