Large Normal 92 - Game Over! Scum Win!

[StevieT92]

If I have to read his thoughts on every single line posted by every single other player, I'll replace out. There is entirely too much fluff/stuff that didn't need to be commented on that he is, wasting all of our time.

I can understand that sentiment, actually. If it really does get too out of hand, the game stops being fun.

Anyway, as for your voting, I appreciate the clarification, because I agree about his playstyle. With his combination of over-commentary and erraticism, we'll be thrown into chaos, and lose. I think we can, however, make a legitimate case forcing Mastin to either abandon his style in favor of something more helpful, or lynch him.

Let's give it our best try before resorting to things like replacing out, eh?

Vote: Mastin

Enough posting shenanigans, por favor.

Posting Shenanigans? It's day one for christ's sake. That is the time for posting shenanigans. I have no problem with Mastin's claiming and randomvoting shenanigans, the point of D1 is to extract information from a situation where we have none. He has done a plenty good job of giving us a lot to think about out day one.

Now, if you have a gripe about the way he quotes posts, that is reasonable, but a line-by-line analysis is a legitimate way to respond to a quote. Mastin, however, you should quote the whole post first so people can read it before you start quoting single lines.

I think we can, however, make a legitimate case forcing Mastin to either abandon his style in favor of something more helpful, or lynch him.

Lynching should not be an option here. The rule I follow isnt Lynch all Lurkers or Lynch all Liars, its Lynch all scum. Mastin has not done anything scummy, and hes certainly given us a lot to discuss, which seems to have been his aim.

For your vote,

Vote: Dust

. You are bringing this wagon too far along based on a dislike of one player's posting habits. A lynch here would not be wise, we will have plenty of time to figure out if Mastin is scum or not, especially since he posts so much.

[StevieT92]

Also, anyone who says we need less discussion is inherently scummy. Discussion is the one power of the town. We need as much of it, whether it's off-topic garbage or garbled quotes, as we can get.

[StevieT92]

On a different point, I'd like to call Stevie on misrepresentation of my point against Mastin. I'm calling for less fluff, not less discussion. Fluff is inherently destructive to the town. It's distracting, it's not relevant for the game at large except for being looked upon as fluff, and can make it harder for replacements to deal with.

There is no such thing as 'fluff', which was my point. Any discussion gives more information. That's what we want, information. The more posts that go unwritten, the more potentially valuable information is missed.

With Mastin's statement of intent to keep his posting under control, I'll withdraw my vote of him.

Unvote

So you retract your vote once a second person votes for you? This is an attempt not to look scummy.

[StevieT92]

Misrepresentation again, Stevie. I accomplished what I wished to accomplish. There was no reason to vote Mastin further.

[StevieT92]

Paragraph 1: No, there are such things as "Fluff." Posting non game related content is fluff to make it not look like active lurking. I will concede the point that even OT posting gives infromations though.

Believe me, I have played mafia in threads where there was a lot of fluff and OT posts, and the more volume the town can get the easier it is for them. I'm willing to deal with some fluff as long as people are all posting frequently.

[StevieT92]

Caboose what was your reason for voting then? If you have anything worthwhile to post about your vote, please share your motivations.

I think the town would be poorly served by bickering about Chainsaw defense. While there was some of it going on, it's not that big of a scum tell and there wasn't even that much Chainsaw D.

As for people saying Mastin is unreadable, I have a read on him already.

---

Mod-Edit Votecount 1-5

Mastin - 5

(Caboose, Devestation, Amished, zu_Faul, Empking's Alt)

Zwetschenwasser - 2

(AceMarksman, zer0ph34r)

Dust - 2

(Mastin, StevieT92)

zer0ph34r - 1

(zwetschenwasser)

zu_Faul - 1

(Maturin24)

killa seven - 1

(OrangePenguin)

NanooktheWolf - 1

(cateraction)

hewitt - 1

(zoraster)

OrangePenguin - 1

(Azhrei)

Not Voting - 13

(Everyone Else)

With 27 alive, it takes 14 to lynch.

Seeking a replacement for over_9000.

[StevieT92]

As for people saying Mastin is unreadable, I have a read on him already.

Which is?

Which is information that I get more value out of at this point by it remaining private. I would rather disclose it at a proper time.

[StevieT92]

As for people saying Mastin is unreadable, I have a read on him already.

Which is?

Which is information that I get more value out of at this point by it remaining private. I would rather disclose it at a proper time.

Which is when?

When he claims. It's not like my read of him is important or would change anyone's mind. I wanna see what he would claim first though, because if he claims anything other than what I'm thinking, then he's probably scum. Which would mean it would wait for at least day 2.

[StevieT92]

Also, I don't really think that Caboose is scummy, he just seems like he is getting frustrated with Mastin. I think your efforts, Mastin, would be best concentrated elsewhere, like Dust for example.

[StevieT92]

Dust asked for my thoughts about Mastin. Here they are: I thought he was just a commoner. The reason I thought this was that no way he would draw attention to himself so blatantly if he was a power role. Therefore, he was either a scum or a commoner. Oftentimes scum try to get out of a lynch by claiming to have any sort of power role. I thought Devestation was doing this, until Mastin confirmed him. I would've lynched Mastin on any pro-town claim other than commoner.

However, although I did overlook the possibility of him being a lyncher, I think it fits right now. I think his strategy was to lead the town to scum D1, in order to be able to lead the town to his target D2. So I think all of his scum-hunting efforts so far have been legitimate.

I do not think Mastin is telling the truth about his target. I still do not think we should lynch him. The only thing dangerous about Mastin is his mouth, we will just have to be extra-careful not to be steered wrong.

[StevieT92]

I also want to take this opportunity, since he has just made 5 posts, to do some dissecting of Dust.

In post 272, he expresses some doubt about what has transpired. It seems to me that he thinks it may be a scum set-up

So, wait? Devestation is actually telling the truth, and Mastin is admitting to being a lyncher...

Something feels off. Severely off.

At this point, though, I couldn't tell you what I felt was wrong if I tried. These two consecutive claims, on Day 1, when no one was near a lynch... It feels peculiar. I'm going to go back and reread Mastin-Devestation *my poor eyes*, dropping the OP read-through in light of newer events, and get back to you guys with my findings. *If I ever finish. This is Mastin I'll be trying to reread...*

In post 274, he makes several very good points and asks some very pertinent and insightful questions. No problem there. However, he also states under his 'opinions section':

-Mastin is being truthful. This isn't any gambit I can tell. There's no motivation for one that I can see within the game. By claiming Lyncher, and suggesting that if the town wants to be rid of him asking for a vigkill eliminates the possibility, in my mind, of him being Jester or Mafia.
-Devestation, although his motives are unclear, is also being truthful. His claim against Mastin, as well as Mastin's initial resistance, followed by acceptance, seems too real to be a fabricated maneuver. The bussing they'd have had to have been doing on Day 1 to actually be scum is mind-bogglingly ineffective.

He goes from doubt about them both being scum to certain that there is no conspiracy. It seems a little shaky to me, as even I still have doubts. Thankfully, that's why we have cops. (If devestation comes up as scum, we lynch both of them)
His being wishy-washy is a scumtell, but it is minor.

In his next 3 posts, he unvotes, and agrees that Mastin should be kept alive. This may not be a scumtell and may just be a noob-tell, but he is awfully sheepish here. Mastin says he is harmless, and Dust pretty much just repeats the same sentiment. Maybe he saw it as an easy pro-town sounding thing to say that wouldn't lead to scrutiny.


Speaking further on Mastin, there is nothing wrong with us lynching him here, even though he has said we shouldn't and I have said we shouldn't. We shouldn't, but it is Day 1, and he is not a town role. Don't forget that and think that Mastin is all innocence and flowers.

[StevieT92]

Which is information that I get more value out of at this point by it remaining private. I would rather disclose it at a proper time.

Then why would you bring it up?

To establish that I had a pro-town read of Mastin and so that if Mastin claimed Doctor, for example, I would have a precedent for saying no, the only pro-town role he could be is a commoner.

@Mastin: No power role would attract so much attention to themselves in the RVS. As for purposeful breadcrumbs, I think they are useless bullshit.

BS.

Ask any power role on this site.

Cops,
Docs,
Trackers,
Watchers,
Roleblockers,

Whatever.
Withholding information as those roles is sometimes CRUCIAL to the town. Withholding information is not always bad.

But that's not the case here. There was no reason for Stevie to bring up any suspicions he had if he wasn't going to persue them. "I think I know something juicy but I can't say!!" What purpose does that serve?

I didn't say I had anything juicy, I just said I had a read on him. What would me posting "I think Mastin is a commoner" do at that stage of the game?

However, although I did overlook the possibility of him being a lyncher, I think it fits right now.

I think you spoke too fast, too rashly, and now you're having to backpedal to save face.

My read of him has always been that of a commoner. Wouldn't it be more scummy of me to jump out of the bushes and go "AHAH! I KNEW ALL ALONG!" But I'm speaking truthfully. As an aside, in my many games of mafia, I've rarely played with lynchers and as a mod I never put them in my games. So it's not a read that I try to make a lot or even thought would be in this game.

I do not think Mastin is telling the truth about his target. I still do not think we should lynch him. The only thing dangerous about Mastin is his mouth, we will just have to be extra-careful not to be steered wrong.

Who do you think is his target then?

What a loaded question in such a large game. I have no clue, but I really doubt it is RC.

For another thing, I don't view this as a wasted lynch. Yes, we don't get mafia who is our ultimate goal, but we also do not a) risk outing a power role without a real reason or b) risk killing a townie.

I'm currently not in support of this.

a) This is bound to happen, this is pandering to fear.
b) Mastin will still be around. If you're scared of lynching townies then perhaps you should choose no lynch?

Zora is right. This lynch is

100% beneficial to the town

. However, it's like buying an economy car. I'd rather try and hunt mafia, and buy a Ferrari, but if I can't afford the Ferrari (find anyone else worth lynching), I would settle for the economy car.

I should also mention that, should we lynch Mastin, it's generally a good thing that Day 2 will not become another act in the Mastin Show. I think scum can easily use Mastin as a magnet to distract from the real task at hand. I for one will want to do something other than worry about Mastin in Day 2.

This sounds awfully different than some of your earlier opinions on Mastin's playstyle.

Of course everyone's opinions have changed, Mastin has been outed as a Lyncher. If he previously thought Mastin was pro-town, like I did, of course his opinions will change.

Other lynches I'd currently be supportive of: King, Zer0, hewitt, alvin, 9000, Ace, Stevie, K7, Phoebus, KoC, Emp, zora, Nanook, and OP.

I'm not too picky; I think we've got a lot of information already. I'd probably prefer to lynch someone who's made enough posts so that other people have commented on them, but, like ryan, I wouldn't be opposed to lynching a lurker for the end game benefits.

This section is incredibly scummy. You pick about half the game, and don't even include the lurkers. So pretty much, you would support a lynch against pretty much anyone.

This whole post seems like RedCoyote is trying to make himself look like a good scumhunter but he is grasping at straws.

big,

BIG

,

BIG FoS: RedCoyote

I'll leave you at just a FoS since you've only made one post.

[StevieT92]

i am back from v/la

appropriate notice had been sent to mod.

posting tomorrow - after 6pm EDT

have fun

[StevieT92]

Mod-Edit Votecount 1-14

Mastin - 8

(Caboose, Devestation, zu_Faul, Empking's Alt, orangepenguin, NanooktheWolf, zoraster, King)

OrangePenguin - 4

(cateraction, Maturin24, hewitt, Mastin)

Zwetschenwasser - 2

(AceMarksman, zer0ph34r)

Dust - 1

(StevieT92)

Devestation - 1

(Azhrei)

zer0ph34r - 1

(ryan2754)

zu_Faul - 1

(RedCoyote)

Red Coyote -1

(zwetschenwasser)

Not Voting - 6

(Everyone Else)

With 27 alive, it takes 14 to lynch.

Seeking a replacement for over_9000.
Note - forgot about Phoebus sending me the V/LA notice, sowwy D:

---

Ace, if you didn't catch my last post, I haven't been posting because I have nothing to add. I will continue to not post until I have something to add. If I'm considered a lurker due to my play style, so be it.

I didn't post an explanation because I thought my reasoning would be obvious. He has an anti-town role. At least, that's what he claimed before. I am now keeping my vote there because I just don't believe him.

Thanks to OP for pointing out my mistake. Just to make sure it goes through-

Vote:Mastin

You have a useless attitude. We have had 14 pages of pretty thick discussion. Find something to add. Post your thoughts, no matter how unimportant you think they are. Quote someones post and comment on it, instead of trying to make posts that stand on their own, it's a lot easier.

I will

unvote: Dust

because trying to drive a one-man wagon is unproductive and depressing.

[StevieT92]

@King: Honsetly, I used to think like you do, and it is an erroneous way of thinking. I'm just tryin to help you out, because inactivity does make you look scummy and helps the scum blend in.

[StevieT92]

Look at my posts before I claimed--it was fairly obvious I was breadcrumbing cop VERY heavily.
AND my meta is exactly what I'd do if I were to be a cop as well.
So there's no denying I was trying to breadcrumb cop heavily.

BREADCRUMBS. MEAN. NOTHING. Stop acting like they do.

[StevieT92]

To establish that I had a pro-town read of Mastin and so that if Mastin claimed Doctor, for example, I would have a precedent for saying no, the only pro-town role he could be is a commoner.

You could've made up any number of things, no matter what Mastin had claimed, and said, "Oh yeah, I predicted this earlier".

You're right, I could've said anything. But I think that by coming out after he was confirmed a lyncher and saying I thought he was a commoner shows that I would say that no matter what he claimed. And my strategy

was valid

, by the way. If Mastin claimed cop D2, I would've lynched him (Obviously I can't prove this).

You're claiming that it's primary purpose was the bolster whatever argument you would have in the future after Mastin had claimed, but since we don't know what you were thinking, Mastin could've claimed anything and you could've went back to it and still used it. You knew, or should've known, you were going to be hassled about it.

Since my intentions were pure, I have no fear of being hassled .

Moreover, you say "to establish you had a

pro-town

read", but you didn't say pro-town in the original comment. You just said you could read him.

I thought it was implied that if I wasn't voting him that I thought he was pro-town.

I didn't say I had anything juicy, I just said I had a read on him. What would me posting "I think Mastin is a commoner" do at that stage of the game?

The implication is that you have potentially important (juicy) knowledge, based on your experience with this game, as to what role Mastin should be. You choose to tell the town that you have this knowledge, but that you are not going to share it. That's counter-productive. I have no way of confirming whether or not that knowledge was that you thought Mastin was a vanilla, or commoner, other than your own confirmation of that idea.

It was potentially very important. If Mastin had claimed Cop D2, I would've shouted from the rooftops that he was scum because the only pro-town role he could possibly be was a townie. But revealing what I thought at that point really did nothing to help the town.

What a loaded question in such a large game.

You made the statement that you don't believe I'm Mastin's target, and that's fair.

But why are you secretive about your suspicions as to who it may be? Shouldn't that be something to town should discuss, in order to avoid lynching that person? Perhaps you would prefer to save this for later when someone who you do not want to be lynched is getting a wagon?

I'm not being secretive, I have no idea who his target is. Not a clue.

Zora is right. This lynch is

100% beneficial to the town.

Did I say it wasn't?

This section is incredibly scummy. You pick about half the game, and don't even include the lurkers. So pretty much, you would support a lynch against pretty much anyone.

You don't consider alive, 9000, K7, Phobeus, and KoC to be lurkers?

Do you consider King, Zer0, hewitt, Ace, Emp, zora, and OP to be town?

---

Fair point about the lurker bit, maybe I was a little mistaken. I still think that list is too large, however.

It is worthy of noting how Amiscum and Stevie are the only two I've seen use "commoners" in reference to a group.

This could be notable. I've never heard that term before either, but Stevie's been on this site for four years so I imagine he's heard just about every label in the book.

I've been doing it on purpose .

[StevieT92]

Hmm. Thinking about Selective Scumhunting just brought something to mind:

Mastin, way to tunnel this early on. I wouldn't be surprised if the real scum are sitting back, enjoying that you're taking all the heat for them. I am not sure about your wagon being scum driven. I mean,

I doubt your partners are on you, but most of them are scum?

I really doubt it. I mean, there could be 1 or 2, but I know that I am not scum. You shouldn't be so close minded this early on. You're not going to get anywhere, if you already think you've won when half the players haven't posted yet.

I commented earlier that something about the logic on this post - specifically, the underlined sentence in the post - wasn't making sense.

I just realized how it *would* make sense - if there are 2 Mafias in the game, and orangepenguin was saying that he thought that the other members of Mastin's Mafia weren't on his wagon and that only a few of the *other* Mafia was on his wagon.

But then, how would orangepenguin know that there are two Mafias (if there are even two Mafias) unless he was in one of those Mafias himself? Maybe a really odd power role, but I doubt it...

It's not damning without evidence that there are two Mafias in the setup... but it's quite damning indeed should that evidence appear later.

That was back when I thought Mastin was scum. In such a large set-up, I am just assuming there is more than one mafia. There has been 0 deaths yet, so I have no evidence or anything, but with 27 players, I figure there must be at least more than one scum faction. The last game I played with about 30 players had 2 factions, so I was only assuming. Before my post, Mastin was going on about his wagon being scum-driven. I thought Mastin was scum, and I was on the wagon, and I know I am not scum - I think at the time there was 7 people on his wagon. Taking me out of it, assuming that Mastin was scum at the time, with two different factions, I said kind of arrogantly at Mastin that I doubt his partners were on it, but that it was possible that one or two scum

could

be on it, because it would be possible.

We could easily have 1 large mafia and 2 SKs as well. I wanted to re-quote this because this point is very valid. If we turn out to have 2 mafias tonight, the orangepenguin comes off as very scummy.

[StevieT92]

Oh and it's hammer time

VOTE: MASTIN

He's defending himself wayyy too hard, and not really using good logic. That makes him worth a lynch because his intentions are still unclear to me.

[StevieT92]

Oh and it's hammer time

VOTE: MASTIN

He's defending himself wayyy too hard, and not really using good logic. That makes him worth a lynch because his intentions are still unclear to me.

My count could be off, but with Dev's unvote, that's actually not hammer.

Oh sad story, I missed that. I have a fond love for hammering, someone else has to do it now.

[StevieT92]

his insistence on mason recruiters
his "guess" at being a N1 vig target
this is conjecture at best.
serves as rolefish bait at best, unnecessary fluff at worst.

people who have said discussion is good, it gives information... well, after killing Mastin and after the resolution of all night actions, if you can't get information from analysing his interaction after that (from over 5 pages of content solely from Mastin) - then it strikes me that your hypothesis is unfounded.

For the record this is my basic reasoning for voting Mastin.

[StevieT92]

I still stand by my vote.

[StevieT92]

Oh and it's hammer time

VOTE: MASTIN

He's defending himself wayyy too hard, and not really using good logic. That makes him worth a lynch because his intentions are still unclear to me.

Hey, my gambit worked! Die opportunistic scum!

Unvote; Vote: StevieT92

Opportunistic? If you mean that In my 4 years of playing Mafia on this site and in scumchat, I have had a zest for hammering? You're damn right I do.

I wouldn't draw attention to myself so hard if I was scum. Yes, I realize this is a WIFOM argument, but it's true.

[StevieT92]

StewieT92 agrees with Tar on this. He is making the same scummy move.

a) Don't you ever call me Stewie .
b) I don't think it's a strong point, but yes Tar made a valid point. What I posted was that if from N1, if it seems like we have two mafia, it is worth pursuing. Not necessarily now when we have no clue of the setup.

[StevieT92]

Hmm, Stevie's "hammer" also makes me suspicious of him. To pull out Phoebus's quote as his reasoning (Phoebus not being exactly the epitome of great behavior in the first place), and not questioning Mastin along those lines makes me believe that Stevie is scum and just wanted to get Mastin out of the way instead of actually questioning somebody mostly-confirmed.

Much earlier in the thread we had a large discussion over Mastin was distracting us from scumhunting. At the time, most disagreed, because it seemed that he was a townie scumhunting. But he is not. the phoebus quote I was quoting pretty much sums up my point, that Mastin is now a distraction, especially if he was alive D2. I want to ensure that he doesn't make it to Day Two. (Plus the night is very unreliable in terms of letting the town off a specific player. We, as town, should use the one power all of us have, and lynch him)

[StevieT92]

My zest for hammering is a playstyle thing. See the wiki entry for Hammer:

Some players (such as Fritzler) particularly like being the Hammah voter.

Notice Fritzler and I are both 2005s, I have played with him a lot and play a similiar way.

I would also like to further quote the wiki page:

a hammah: =======[]

Isn't it pretty? I just can't resist.



The reason I voted Mastin, and all of you should do so as well, is that look how the game has bogged down.

a) The town needs to lynch, and Mastin is the most agreed upon target.
b) Mastin thinks there are a lot of scum on his wagon, however the best way to hunt these alleged scum is to start with a lynch of Mastin himself. (Things get more complicated if Mastin is still around, we will have a better view of the Mastin wagon if hes not around to keep posting)
c) Lynching Mastin is a good lynch, and importantly, it gives us forward momentum. If we wait until Day 2 to lynch him, or he's still around to distract us for multiple days, our scumhunting will stall.

[StevieT92]

huh?

[StevieT92]

Amished, Zwet, ryan, RC, and Hewitt;

running a one man bandwagon is not exactly helping the town.

Prod: Zoroaster,
prod: Caboose,
prod: zu_Faul,
prod: orangepenguin,
prod: Nanookthewolf,
prod: Acemarksmen,
prod: Cateraction,
prod: Maturin24,
prod: Tarhalindur,
prod: Azrhei,
prod: ryan2754

[StevieT92]

So I should sheep to an easy bandwagon, one I might or might not necessarily agree with instead of pointing out what I view to be scummy behavior so that in future days (unless there's a nuke role out there that if they die the game ends) everyone else and I have something to build on in the future?

We still have time before a deadline, so time spent looking at people other than Mastin seems like it'd still be a helpful concept.

I'm not saying that you should be a sheep, or not discuss other players besides mastin.

I'm pointing out the (true) fact that driving a one man wagon helps the town not at all.

[StevieT92]

The mastin wagon just needs 2 more people to hop on.

[StevieT92]

Mod-Edit Votecount 2-1

Not Voting - 22

(Everyone)

With 22 alive, it takes 12 to lynch.

---

7. alvinz95, a Doctor, Slashed Night 1.

16. zwetchenwasser, a Watcher, Shot Night 1.

23. Tarhalindur, a Mafia Goon, Ambushed Night 1.

14. killa seven, a Tracker, Beaten to Death Night 1.

These might contain a couple of clues as well. I'd hope players with a little more experience could give us some insight. To me, coupled with the Mod's explanation of how the night went, this says that the mafia were probably the ones who killed zwet.

It looks like we've got someone wielding a knife on alvinz, which implies that the town may have a Gunsmith role? Possibly a Hunter-type role? K7 was beaten to death, and Tar was ambushed? Anyone have any idea what these roles could be?

Az & Maturin are common elements with the OP wagon.

Good observation, WC. It'd be nice to hear from Azhrei and Maturin's replacement.

Dev, being our only claimed role out, it would be nice to hear from him sooner rather than later.

To me, a knife signifies a serial killer almost 100% of the time. (Think the joker from Dark Night )

We have a lot of deaths, however, so I'm not really sure whether we have 2 mafias or 1. We definitely have an SK.

[StevieT92]

Meh.. I don't care much for that kind of speculation, but no doubt there's either 2 vigs, 1 vig & 1 sk, or perhaps even some 1-shot vigs out there.

Vote: cateraction

There's too much referencing between him & Tar during D1 where I'm almost certain that they can be linked, especially when cat' questioned zwet about voting for Tar.

I'm keeping a close eye on Cateraction, mainly since so much of his second post consisted of agreeing and likes/dislikes, rather than scummy/nonscummy - a form of IIoA (Information Instead of Analysis), albeit a weak one. I want to see more content from him soon.

A way of keeping his feelings about a player/possible-buddy in a neutral viewpoint, as far as everyone else can see(?). I think so. It's not quite distancing, but also not buddying.

Very valid point.

vote: Cateraction

This post is pretty insightful. I'm going to automatically give town points to any player who Tar referred to as either scummy or scummy as hell. I should also point out how he wanted to make cases against zu_faul & King, so, to some extent, I don't suspect them as being his scum buds.

Cat' is my best choice at the moment since there's still not a whole lot of commentary made for D2.

[/quote]

This is a very WIFOM argument. Undoubtedly they are linked to Tar, but just because he says they are scummy once does not mean they are not scum together. We have to read what they said about Tar as well to determine that.

[StevieT92]

I'm going to read Zu_Faul in iso.

[StevieT92]

Mod-Edit Votecount 2-3

cateraction - 3

(Kise, orangepenguin, StevieT92)

Kise - 1

(zoraster)

hewitt - 1

(Empking's Alt)

Zer0ph34r - 1

(Caboose)

RedCoyote - 1

(Phoebus)

Caboose - 1

(hewitt)

Not Voting - 16

(Everyone)

With 22 alive, it takes 12 to lynch.

V/LA (keeping track now - any more?):
-orangepenguin is V/LA until the 18th of June

---

I got an early scumread on Zu_Faul because his first 4 posts are pretty scummy. He defends OP as well in the RVS, so that is an interesting connection if OP turns out scum.

Orangepenguin's posts were obv jokes.

Vote:Mastin

Based off of nothing more than regretting signing up for this mess?!?

-S^1, + F, Zu, for bandwagoning off of such poor reasoning.

Causation != Correlation.

Both quotes are from his 3rd post. The second quote I think is scummy as well, as he bandwagons and just claims that he has a good reason.


Besides his first 4 posts, I have found nothing scummy about Zu_Faul, and he has made several very good points. To me it seems like there is a sharp turnaround in how scummy he looks when he starts taking this game seriously. However, his RVS scumminess worries me, as I know he is an experienced player and knows how to play like a townie.

The reason I did this iso read was to see how he responded to Tar, and he does make good points as to why Tar is scum. That makes me think that he is not scumbuddies with Tar.

[StevieT92]

Jebus, do you mean 18th of

June

? Because it would be bad if OP was v/la for more than a month.

Did I say July?
Fixed, thanks :3

[StevieT92]

zerophear, to me, just reads like someone who is really, really, really bad at mafia. Maybe not scum.

[StevieT92]

Okay, so what do you think Tal's relationship with his town reads are?

I think those he named as town probably are. Keep in mind that he knows exactly who is town, and probably named those people as town so that if they were lynched he could say ITYS.

(Full Disclosure: I was on that list, so yes of course I want to think that we are all town)

[StevieT92]

*headdesk*

You still believe Mastin told the truth? Your either daft or protecting RedCoyote for dishonest reasons.

This is a very WIFOM situation, but I think the fact that Mastin named RC as his target, while not confirming RC by any stretch of the imagination, at least is a positive towards RC being town.

[StevieT92]

Devestation, I AM a fool. How has it taken you this long just to think that?

Very scummy quote. The town offers you an excuse to your play, and you instantly say, yes, all of you are right, I'm just a fool, I couldn't possibly be scum.

Unvote, Vote: ZeroPhear

[StevieT92]

So let's say you've got 50/50 then just for the hell of it. Between you, Mastin, Caboose, and StevieT92, Mastin is confirmed non-scum which leaves two out of the three of you left to be possible scum. I think it's pretty obvious to me who those two would be based on D1, Caboose and StevieT92.

How is it obvious that I am scum at all? You're reaching badly here.

[StevieT92]

So let's say you've got 50/50 then just for the hell of it. Between you, Mastin, Caboose, and StevieT92, Mastin is confirmed non-scum which leaves two out of the three of you left to be possible scum. I think it's pretty obvious to me who those two would be based on D1, Caboose and StevieT92.

Whoa little bit of an overreaction there bud, nice. Didn't call you scum at all.

which leaves two out of the three of you left to be possible scum.

I think it's pretty obvious to me who those two would be based on D1

Caboose and StevieT92.

How is it obvious that I am scum at all? You're reaching badly here.

Whoa little bit of an overreaction there bud, nice. Didn't call you scum at all.

Hewitt has been acting pretty scummy, and this is a good example of it. He reaches to call me and Caboose scum for no real reason, except saying it was "obvious" "based on D1"

He then denies ever calling me scum, and calls me defensive. He's throwing sh**, and hoping some sticks, which is very scummy behavior.

unvote, vote: Hewitt

[StevieT92]

Unvote: Zer0ph34r

Rereading your posts I see that I should have never made that vote ... The scumtells weren't as strong one I read againg in ISO. You've been consistent.

Vote: AceMarksman

Curious what you know about RC? If your only reason for thinking he's town is because of the lynchee target bit then say so, if not what are your other reasons?

That's it? Because I don't see anywhere you stating your reasons for voting AceMarksman.

Post 1145

That doesn't make sense to give your reasonings after you've been asked to give them. You should've given them when you voted.

So let's say you've got 50/50 then just for the hell of it. Between you, Mastin, Caboose, and StevieT92, Mastin is confirmed non-scum which leaves two out of the three of you left to be possible scum. I think it's pretty obvious to me who those two would be based on D1, Caboose and StevieT92.

Whoa little bit of an overreaction there bud, nice. Didn't call you scum at all.

which leaves two out of the three of you left to be possible scum.

I think it's pretty obvious to me who those two would be based on D1

Caboose and StevieT92.

How is it obvious that I am scum at all? You're reaching badly here.

Whoa little bit of an overreaction there bud, nice. Didn't call you scum at all.

Hewitt has been acting pretty scummy, and this is a good example of it. He reaches to call me and Caboose scum for no real reason, except saying it was "obvious" "based on D1"

He then denies ever calling me scum, and calls me defensive. He's throwing sh**, and hoping some sticks, which is very scummy behavior.

unvote, vote: Hewitt

Hahaaa nice try StevieT. You can't pick apart a quote and misuse it and expect me to not realize it. Me and Ryan were having a discussion about who Tarhalindur said was pro-town before he died and who would've been most likely scum. I pointed out that he said Caboose was pro-town and was one of the only players to do so and he flipped scum. In that same quote Tarhalindur pointed out yourself, Ryan, and Mastin. Ryan pointed out that it's most likely scum would give a mix of names, both scum partners and town partners in giving a list on who they think is the most town. So I gave a hypothetical situation where Tarhalindur gave 50/50 on the names, 2 scum, 2 town. Mastin obviously wasn't scum so out of the three left I said who I felt was the two scummiest.

Good try though, way to reach for it StevieT.

I'm not reaching about anything, I'm correctly pointing out how you are throwing out unsubstantiated attacks (aka throwing sh**), and hoping that it will lead to a bandwagon against a townie even though you are not making a stand about anything. (aka hoping it sticks)

[StevieT92]

EBWOP: Which is very scummy behavior, in case any of you missed that.

[StevieT92]

Oh no, on the contrary. You're incredibly reaching for a case on me. I'm hoping that my comment will lead to a bandwagon against you (nice appeal to emotion there by the way)? I make one comment against you saying that between yourself, Ryan, and Caboose, you and Caboose are most likely to be the scum and now I'm leading a bandwagon against you? When I'm clearly trying to start a wagon on Caboose? Yeah, nice try bud. Everything you just said in your paragraph describes exactly what you're attempting to do

(nice appeal to emotion there by the way)?

When you can name exactly what I said was an appeal to emotion, I will quit mafia.

and now I'm leading a bandwagon against you?

Did I ever say you were leading a bandwagon? Actually, I accused you of the opposite, making mass amounts of unsubstantiated attacks while providing little or no evidence to support them.

Yeah, nice try bud. Everything you just said in your paragraph describes exactly what you're attempting to do

We are not doing the same thing, I am actually using quotes as evidence, such as when u falsely label me as appealing to emotion. You are making attacks without evidence. I am driving a bandwagon (against you), which is good for the town. You are simply attacking without ryhme or reason.

[StevieT92]

@hewitt - Nah, I'd like to know (whether simple or elaborate) reasons behind people's votes. It cuts down and lets me know who's not jump mindlessly hopping on bandwagons, and who actually has valid reasons for wanting to lynch another player.

Thank you, my thoughts exactly.

I like how you say this, but until this point you had given 0 reasons as to why you called me scummy.

When you can name exactly what I said was an appeal to emotion, I will quit mafia.

and hoping that it will lead to a bandwagon against a townie

Hm...how about right there? This is how a town player would have said that line "and hoping that it will lead a bandwagon against me". But instead you used the word townie? That's one of those lines scum use when they're attempting to be sneaky and put a connection in others' minds linking you to the word townie. Simple psychology. And it's appeal to emotion because town wants to protect other town (obviously). You using the word townie is attempting to villainize me and make other people feel like I'm attacking you. Playing victim is appeal to emotion.

I wasn't playing victim, I was describing your behavior. I'm not a victim at all nor do I feel threatened by your weak attacks, I'm simply pointing out your scummy behavior. Terrible, terrible analysis.

Did I ever say you were leading a bandwagon?

Uh...How about the same quote?

and hoping that it will lead to a bandwagon against a townie

You're completely misunderstanding and misrepresenting my argument. You're NOT leading a bandwagon. You are making baseless accusations and hoping it turns into a bandwagon, which is scummy behavior. Scum never lead bandwagons, as it leads to too much scrutiny.

Yeah, nice try bud. Everything you just said in your paragraph describes exactly what you're attempting to do

We are not doing the same thing, I am actually using quotes as evidence, such as when u falsely label me as appealing to emotion. You are making attacks without evidence. I am driving a bandwagon (against you), which is good for the town. You are simply attacking without ryhme or reason.

You're correct there. We aren't doing the same thing. You're throwing shit at me and missing pretty badly.

I'll ignore your pointless trash talk here.

Hewitt, how exactly was Stevie appealing to emotion? Stevie, I don't think his claims are unsubstantiated. I think his case on Caboose actually has a lot of merit. On you however, not so much. Then again, it doesn't really seem like he was ever trying to go hard after you. Even though he mentioned you alongside Caboose in the whole Mastin 50/50 thing, he has been attacking Caboose hard, and defending himself against you, who THINKS he is attacking you baselessly. So in essence, I think both of you are misconstruing the situation.

For the appeal to emotion thing see above. I agree that my case on Caboose has a lot of merit lol. And I don't have a case on StevieT, or at least I didn't when we started this little argument. I wasn't going after him at all. I understand the situation, I just think a) StevieT's not really good at reading or b) overdefensive and kinda scummy.[/qupte]

It's not that I'm defensive, it's that I think I've spotted Hewitt in a scum tell. (Throwing sh** and hoping some sticks)

I haven't tried to really make a defense, I've been trying to point out how Hewitt is scum.

Below is where I actually make a defense

Hewitt, can you explain why you think StevieT to be possible scum based on D1?

If I had to think of how StevieT is possible scum based on D1 I would point out quotes like this...

There is no such thing as 'fluff', which was my point. Any discussion gives more information. That's what we want, information. The more posts that go unwritten, the more potentially valuable information is missed.

I definitely disagree with this. Posts should obviously be constructive most of the time and not fluff. Fluff exists and it sucks, every once in a while it's okay but if there's a whole bunch of needless discussion going on then that's not discussion we need.

This is a game theory discussion. I have no idea how that makes me scummy. Great reaching though.

Which is information that I get more value out of at this point by it remaining private. I would rather disclose it at a proper time.

This whole "knowing what Mastin is" deal might've been more obnoxious than scummy I don't know, it was kind of shady nonetheless I feel.

I wanted to see how people would react, especially Mastin. By the way, I just would like to point out that if Mastin had claimed cop my crazy method would've had some merit as I would've led the charge against him. The way the game turned out, ya I looked like a fool. Oh well.

Also, I don't really think that Caboose is scummy, he just seems like he is getting frustrated with Mastin. I think your efforts, Mastin, would be best concentrated elsewhere, like Dust for example.

I would just like to keep this fresh in my mind for if Caboose gets lynched and flips scum...because I don't see this point of view at all.

This only applies to D1. I got that read on Caboose because I felt somewhat the same way and could see that he was sick and tired of talking about Mastin. Does not at all apply to D2, however, where he has done nothing to look pro-town.

I will

unvote: Dust

because trying to drive a one-man wagon is unproductive and depressing.

I'm a pretty big believer that you vote for who you think is scum and this just doesn't sit right with me. I honestly don't care if it's a one-man wagon if that's who you're most confident is scum then fight for it (which he didn't do very well).

It's alright to drive a 1 man wagon at the beginning of the day. It's how you find scum, I totally agree. However, the only power the town has comes from getting numbers on wagons (of scum hopefully ). I have no problem with using my vote for the greater good, which may let the 1 person who I think is scum slip by. There is always the next day or I could even switch back if we get a reliable claim.

However, late in the day, driving a 1 man wagon is an irresponsible use of your vote. The town has usually reached some sort of consensus, and you need to get behind that.

That's pretty much it from D1 if I were to make a case on StevieT based on it.

Rather weak case to be saying that I look scummy based off D1, don't you think?

[StevieT92]

I'm going to be working on a day 1 voting anlysis. Wish me luck!

[StevieT92]

prod:Amished

[StevieT92]

Stevie: How far are you along?

like 1% done. I just did pre-work yesterday, I'm doing actual analysis now .

[StevieT92]

Mastin wagon analysis

Tracking votes for mastin. (First () indicates which votecount. In case of an unvote, second () indicates who, if anyone, they switched their vote to)

+Amished (1)
+Caboose (1)
+Devestation (2)
+zu_faul (3)
+Dust (3)
-Dust (4) (none)
+Empking (5)
+Orangepenguin (7)
-Amished (11) (none)
+Nanook (12)
+Zoroaster (12)
+King (13)
+Zwet (18)
+Ryan (19)
+Phoebus (19)
+AceM (20)
-Devestation (21) (none)
+Stevie (23)
-Zwet (24) (none)
-Ryan (25) (zero)
+Zero (25)
+Kise (29)
-Kise (31)
-Nanook (39)
+Amished (40)
+Azhrei (40)
+Devestation (F)
+Alvinz (F)


This is a table showing the people who unvoted Mastin, and how long they spent on the bandwagon before unvoting:
Dust: 1
Kise: 2
Zwet: 6
Ryan: 6
Amished: 10
Devestation: 19
Nanook: 27

A change of vote indicates a change of opinion. I do this table to try and spot who has had their vote on long enough to go through a change of opinion. Amished, Devestation, and Nanook obviously do not look scummy at all by unvoting. Dust and Kise both look very scummy be voting and then rapidly unvoting. (Who could possibly change their mind after 2 pages? Indicates ulterior motive to changing their vote) Zwet and Ryan both have relatively quick unvotes. Ryan unvotes to vote for Zerophear, so I don't think that was scummy. Zwet's actions are very slightly scummy.


Scum points (so far. The point of these points is just to serve as a quantitative record of scumminess. 1 point is not a big deal. 4, as Dust has already acquired, is):
-1 Devestation: 3rd person on wagon (not important, he's pretty cleared)
-1 zu_faul: 4th person on wagon
-1 Dust: 5th person on wagon
-1 Dust: OMGUS Voting
-2 Dust: hopping on and hopping off
-2 Kise: hopping on and hopping off
-1 Zwet: quick unvote

Totals:
Devestation: 1
Zu_Faul: 1
Dust: 4
Kise: 2
Zwet: 1[/spoiler]

[StevieT92]

I'll stop tunneling on Hewitt, his recent posts have made him seem more pro-town.

No one really stands out as scummy to ne. Dust is the most solid scumread I've had, so I guess I will do what Hewitt asks, and vote for the person I think is most scum.

unvote, vote: Dust

[StevieT92]

sorry I haven't posted recently...this is vacation season for me. V/LA until monday the 13th