NY 114: Mafia vs. Werewolves (Game Over)

[Leafsnail]

/confirm. I'd like to claim the kill on Bob, and also say I have 14 votes, and can thus hammer anyone at any time.

[Leafsnail]

Sorry, haven't been following this... didn't think we'd start pregame .

Anyway -

Super Smash Bros. Fan's list is null... I don't really agree with it, but I don't see what makes it so scummy. It seems more like something easy to bandwagon onto. With that in mind,

FomS: Parama and Chronopie

. Parama seems far more eager to lynch over that alone, but chronopie seems to be following him, which is odd.

[Leafsnail]

*How many games have you finished, here or elsewhere? (I don't particularly need to know details here)

Here, I think it's only 3. Elsewhere... I dunno, quite a lot.

*Do you consider yourself an experienced player?

Fairly.

*Are we there yet?

We get there when we get there.

*How about now?

Sure, why not.

[Leafsnail]

Does anyone know any men named Michel? I don't. I wish I did though.

Hey everyone, look, SSBF is the center of attention! Everyone talk about him! Everyone debate over his silly gimmick!

Quick! DO IT GODDAMIT!!

I was considering doing a gimmick for this game until I was preempted by

you know who

. I wasn't going to use any pictures, just a codebox, a list, and scumpoints. Every time I see something scummy, that person gets a scumpoint. Whoever has the most scumpoints dictates who I vote for, who I want lynched, and shows my general thoughts towards other players. Its like his list without the silly arrows. Just an example:

Code: Select all

foilist13:2
Leafsnail:1
Lowell:9
Midnight's Sorrow:3
LynchMePls:6
SSBF:4
Vi:7

And I'd just add people to the list over time when I see scummy things. Simple, really.

This is... pretty much a list of everyone who's posted content so far?

Except Parama and Chronopie. Interesting.

@105 - Give me examples, Parama. And refer to where you said this before.

Also, please tell me what you think of Timeater's list, which is fundamentally the same idea.

[Leafsnail]

Scum can only daytalk for a little while... so yeah.

Forgot this is no longer "Endless Back and Forth Mafia" so I will

Vote: Chronopie

for now for being scum.

[Leafsnail]

This is... pretty much a list of everyone who's posted content so far?

Except Parama and Chronopie. Interesting.

@105 - Give me examples, Parama. And refer to where you said this before.

Also, please tell me what you think of Timeater's list, which is fundamentally the same idea.

I was just putting names down at random, they have no consequence. I said it was just an example, do you not understand?

Are you actually being predatory or just silly?

unvote

Lets move out of RVS quick.

Oh, I thought by "example" you meant "For example, this is what I think now".

Nevermind.

[Leafsnail]

First off,

vote: SSBF

Presents that Leafsnail asked for!
This and the series of posts following it.
Dammit, I screwed up!
And a lot of his posts are pointless info about himself that nobody cares about.

...How do either of those links show "obvious nervousness and caution" (your words, not mine)? Similarly, the only time you mentioned nervousness before was in response to... pretty much nothing. Your ISO actually looks like a joke.

[Leafsnail]

Oh God Leaf you're really going to make me explain something so obvious?

If it's so obvious, it should be easy to explain. It should also be easy to explain why you didn't bring up these points before.

Why are you so concerned with it anyways? For all you know I'm RVSing (I'm not but still <_<)

:/

...What the hell are you talking about?

[Leafsnail]

Just to say that Parama is reaching to a RIDICULOUS DEGREE

Also, daniel94581's attack on askbob looks bad, and defensive of someone else.

Still waiting for a response from

Chronopie

.

[Leafsnail]

STOP WITH THE CLAIMS STOP WITH THE CLAIMS STOP WITH THE CLAIMS

Ugh, Serial's pet hate scummy comment. Parama is reaching on page 9 before there's any real concrete information? Seriously? Maybe he should just chilll in the background and make comments like 'blah is reaching'.

Yes, he is reaching. Going through all of someone's posts and attacking every tiny thing (most of which don't seem to be there at all) is reaching regardless of when you do it in the game. Especially if you've already declared you want them lynched.

Sure, attacking over small things is standard day one play, but if you're trying to apply pressure to get reads, do you do it to the weakest player who is most likely to get lynched?

I have somewhat of an inside source and I can tell you that lynchmepls is in the mafia but he's not werewolf

. And no I don't know this cause I'm scum.

unvote:vi
Vote:Lynchmepls

Some sort of cop?

Rolefishing. Very bad rolefishing.

I don't agree with SerialClergyman's reasons for voting leafsnail, but the line about daniel is bad enough that I don't mind the vote.

Didn't have much time to write it... in retrospect, I realise it doesn't really make sense.

Basically, he questioned why someone thought he had found scum followed by claiming he knew what another person was saying better than askbob did.

In his next post, he then demands that The Goat immediately remove his vote on vezo, the same person he defended in his previous post. In fact, now I read his ISO, post 2 also defends vezo. Sure, he claims vezo is CT to him, but surely then he wouldn't feel the need to rolefish this guy?

[Leafsnail]

Damnit, Chronopie can wait.

Vote: daniel94581

.

[Leafsnail]

Oh god this game

It seems that several people have attacked me for voting a claimed mason... even though I haven't posted since the masons claimed.

Unvote

, since him being a mason explains the things I voted him for.

@LS: I was asleep, so no I couldn't give a reply between 'waiting for chrono' and 'chrono can wait'.

I was just so pissed off at daniel I thought he needed a vote.

Vi and I disagree on reasons to vote leafsnail but we're both doing it anyway, I actually think that's a good sign. He is voting a mason, as well, if anyone's taking note.

Well, firstly, the mason hadn't claimed when I placed the vote, and I hadn't even read the claim at that point. Vi isn't voting for me, and I'm not sure why you're trying to claim support from... him?

Leafsnail is an easier read. He hit Parama like a truck, put it in reverse, and did it again. I'd like to think he didn't try the same to me because I'm voting you for non-stupid reasons but I think Parama was just an easier target all-around. You flip scum and it very much looks like chainsawing. Also, not liking the daniel vote at all. If the mason group is telling the truth then we'll know pretty fast. I somehow doubt a mafia team and a werewolf team would let them all live to end game (that would be cool though). I really can't think of a pro-town reason for voting any member of this self-proclaimed mason team.

Uh... I can't tell if you're calling me town or scum for attacking Parama. Can you clarify, please?

@278 - I think I have a theory as to why Vezo is doing this. I'd rather not say what it is though.

@288 - I'm guessing this is like the open Monks & Masons setup, where a werewolf mason is possible but not guarenteed.

@292 - Didn't you vote them earlier, askbob?

@300 - Are you seriously suggesting that Seraphim, Daniel and Vezo are a scumteam? No. This is doomed to fail, as it'll attract a nightkill from the opposing scumgroup. Once one of them flips werewolf/ mafia, it's curtains for the other two as well. I'm quite surprised you didn't consider this.

Parama. Would you mind explaining what seems to be a contradiction here?

I think vez is lying tbqh. The claim doesn't seem genuine at all.

I feel sorry for you, stuck with 2 VIs as masonbuddies.

Sure, seraphim claimed in the meantime, but how does that make it more convincing? After all, if Vezo was scum falseclaiming mason with 2 random people he'd die immediately when they say "Uh, no I'm not". If you thought Vezo was scum with daniel and seraphim, well, how does seraphim's claim change anything?

Although I must say, I totally agree with ISO 26 :/.

Chronopie - I want to ask you a fairly simple question - who do you think is scum? I ask as your last 4 posts don't seem to contain any mention of it. Your last two posts especially look active lurky, discussing how stupid the masons are instead of looking for scum.

Vote: askbob

. Do you have any scumreads? As far as I can tell, you've just been swearing at people for bad play and, in your last post, voting a lurker (with what seems to be a bandwagon).

[Leafsnail]

So, having skimmed over the thread:

The wagon on nhammen is dumb. What's more, most of the people on him jumped on him with little to no reason. Personally, I read him as town.

Vote: Chronopie

. You need death, and you need it today. The way he joined the nhammen wagon is actually hilarious.

I agree with Parama and SC here.

unvote, Vote: Nhammen

--

And LMP said that they had been dropping hints, and wanted someone to ask, so I did. Just because I speculated what form they might take at the same time...

Followed immediately by:

The fact that I'm online is worrisome? and agree with the points I would have made myself, had I been on earlier.

And his last post admits he voted nhammen for lack of content in one of his posts. Oh yeah, great reason for pushing a lynch, Chronopie. And of course you shouldn't be expected to actually think for yourself when voting :/.

Vote: Chronopie

.

Parama has somewhat redeemed himself in my eyes. I disagree with some of his reads, but his reasoning seems genuine, and somehow... I don't see scum intent behind his recent posting.

Askbob is still scum. He's apparently trying to get a claimed Mason Monk (vouched for by 3 other people) lynched. And even so, he hasn't voted since his totally unnecessary "pressure vote" on robotnik.

[Leafsnail]

I actually kind of hate Leafsnail 478. The wagon started, built up, and ended while he wasn't around, so it's perfectly safe to generically attack it as a bad move without really doing anything about it except selectively target the most likely lynch to arise from the wagon's collapse. Also, askbob hasn't posted since vezo claimed.

...I guess it'd be a "safe move" from a scum perspective, but that's how I read it. I don't really care whether Chrono is a "likely lynch" or not - he's scum.

The part about askbob is true, but his apparent willingness to lynch masons is still odd considering his ISO 16, 20 and 21. The point about him having no real scumreads stands.

[Leafsnail]

SSBF - uh, so even though he can't be a werewolf or a mafia member (the two scum factions in this game) he could still be scum?

[Leafsnail]

SSBF - uh, so even though he can't be a werewolf or a mafia member (the two scum factions in this game) he could still be scum?

Actually, a Mason/Monk can still be one of the scums as well, just that there's a lower possibility of it, since most Masons are town.

Mason = a role that is not mafia. Daniel and Seraphim have both confirmed this.
Monk = a role that is not a werewolf. Lynchmeplz has confirmed this.

So Vezo is not a mafia member or a werewolf. HE IS NOT SCUM

[Leafsnail]

Yes. But in this talk of masons and monks...why was only Seraphim out of the question of not being a werewolf?

...?

[Leafsnail]

Comprehension Fail.

A roleblocker is a useless role for a townie to have, therefore, I doubt that it's a town role.

Yeah, blocking a scum kill, preventing someone from dying and finding out who is scum, is a totally useless ability to have :/.

[Leafsnail]

he's in the umbrella of people I would shamelessly jump on

Steady on, I barely know ya .

And... sometimes I prefer to gather my thoughts before posting. Specifically, when it's 1:30 in the morning.

In other news, you're on the same scumteam as chronopie. Either that or you've suffered a stroke within the last 24 hours. I guess you're hoping your ranknames will allow you to get away with this ridiculous behaviour.

Now, if you think I'm scum for doing this, I'd like you to vote me now and give me your reasons for distrusting me. Y'know, vote someone who you think is scum rather than switching back and forth between an easy newb lynch and your backup vote.

[Leafsnail]

"Gathering your thoughts" only involves responding when your name is called?

Indeed, it's a lot easier to respond to a post made specifically against you than everything that's happened on the thread.

I've already mentioned how bad it looks that after missing the nhammen wagon time-wise, you generically tut-tutted it while moving onto the obvious following wagon. You've said (since it became cool to dislike the hamwagon) that you had a newbTown read on nhammen. You don't bother mentioning why you think that or why the arguments are weak, just that the wagon is dumb.

If I'm honest... looking back, I'm having trouble seeing any serious points against nhammen.

Almost all of the points against him stem from Parama's case, which is entirely based on a chronopie/ nhammen scumteam, and considering how quick chronopie was on the wagon, I just don't see it. It's also odd how many of the people don't seem to have even bothered looking at the original Parama case (ie not looking at the one accused of being a scumpartner Chronopie).

Now really. On one side we have a number of fairly decent arguments for him being scum, and on the other side... your self-righteous word. Which one do you think I'm more likely to consider accurate?

I don't think you're scum for voting nhammen - he's acting stupid. It's more the way you've repeatedly changed between distancing yourself from the wagon and pushing it. I mean... you first go on to nhammen for fluff posting, then you jump to sevis for jumping onto the nhammen wagon in a bad way (as if he were to only one), then go back to nhammen for voting someone who isn't likely to have a wagon formed against them (given your previous vote, this actually looks quite funny), then you go BACK to sevis because apparently you've got "cold feet"... in addition to claiming chronopie town for NO reason and saying you'll attack anyone who voted chronopie.

I don't have a problem with votehopping in general, but doing it again and again and again with little to no reason isn't acceptable.

Never mind that I've left the wagon before and after that discussion because I got an honest-Town read from his posts.

Hence "switching back and forth between an easy newb lynch and your backup vote". It's the fact that you join AND LEAVE the wagon for no reason.

Which nicely leads to the other point in this most recent post of yours. I call you out for posting elsewhere onsite - and you have been posting elsewhere, in multiple places over the course of the last several hours - and you tell me that you're gathering thoughts. But apparently your thoughts only seem to include attacking the person bringing to light that you've been hanging around the site all night. I don't think this is an honest attack at all, especially since your mention of me going back and forth between nhammen and Sevis has already been laid out plainly inthread whereas your initial complaint about the wagon was concerned with people who joined the wagon for no reason at all. Those thoughts you were preparing were not only narrow, they were shallow as well.

It's a lot easier to respond to a single post than it is to respond to other things going on inthread. My initial complaint was that people were bandwagonning for no reason, but you randomly leaving the wagon, randomly calling chronopie town AND randomly saying you'll attack anyone who votes chronopie is a whole lot worse.

All in all... it feels far more like you're lining up mislynches than trying to find scum. You're calling a lot of people probably scum, and then leaving them alone, without any real pressure, as if to return to them later so you can strike them down more easily.

Since Sevis-scum doesn't seem very popular today I'll go ahead and give you what you asked for.
'Not sure if you as scum would go out of your way to stir up trouble like this, but I

did

say earlier that you were on the hatelist, so~

Unvote: Sevis

Vote: Leafsnail

(L-12)

Heh, another noncommital reason to unvote, another noncommital vote. In spite of all the "probscum" and "obvscum" you've mentioned throught the thread, you vote someone you're not sure of. Brilliant.

That said, I'm not sure if it's worth lynching you... the enemy scumgroup will probably take you out fairly quickly.

---

Is Chronopie attempting to pretend to look town yet? No? In which case, he still needs to die. The only content he's posted recently seems to be "LYNCH ALL ROLEBLOCKERS"... applied to a wagon started on the premise that he was scumbuddies with nhammen.

---

Parama's case on foilist is solid. Foilist actualy says "I was blatant rolefishing" so... yeah. As far as I can tell, Foilist was trying so hard to paint parama scum that he actually began attacking himself. It's reaching to the point of hilarity. Also, he seems confused as to whether he's trying to call nhammen scum or town.

[Leafsnail]

First bolded: I have but one vote.

But he doesn't even seem like the worst... and why go back to him twice?

Second bolded: Kind of a flimsy caricature of my reason but it's not like you're reading.

About what nhammen has said since SerialClergyman posted - He's still not going anywhere. Of all the people he could have voted for more information, he chose pman, who is least likely to gain a wagon (or directly give information). Lots of attempts at reads, none of which are particularly committal. It's scumhunting at its most ineffective.

This is the only reason I can find for your second voting of nhammen. I assumed any previous reasons were invalid as you declared him town in your previous unvoting of him.

Third is fair enough... I guess I got a similar read on him.

Fourth bolded: Intuition is a reason, albeit not a convincing one for others. I DO know that I said I was using Chronopie's wagon as a catch-all basin for the people I found scummy because they all happened to be there, rather than because they were on Chronopie.

You did SAY it, but it seems like a bizarre coincidence that almost everyone you find scummy is on one player you've just declared town :/.

*I only have one vote. It's hard to put "real pressure" on five people simultaneously. However, I have made attacks on the suspicious players' posts as they've made them, so there's no ambiguity.
*It's Day 1 in a 24-player game; 13 people have to agree to lynch (more specifically, 12 people have to agree with me).
*Not everyone agrees with me, and given the scumhunting techniques going on ITT not everyone is GOING to agree with me. Given that it IS Day 1 and not everyone I believe is scum will turn out to be scum, this is not necessarily a bad thing. (see: Mafia Dodgeball)
*History shows that more often than not a VI (of any alignment) gets lynched D1 in Large Games because it's the kind of player people can agree to lynch. (see: New Age Mafia, Mafia 87, Caught in the Crossfire) And that's fine; it's D1. However, I can press on the wagons that I believe are more likely to hit scum.
*All of the people I think are scum have zero votes on them, so any one of them I pick is the largest bandwagon to push. Similarly, I don't agree with the foilist accusations and I'm presently in wait-and-see mode for Chronopie, so I'm not on those wagons.

Hmm... pretty fair response, actually. Even if your scumlist seems to be moving far too fast for anyone to keep up with :/. Also, are you going to be trying to start a wagon on one of your scumspects at some point?

Why would I be taken out at night fairly quickly?

Competing scumgroups, experienced player.

---

@621 - yes, this is full, stupid overdefence mode from foilist. Parama's point in valid - foilist is calling Parama scum but mystery refusing to vote and deflecting to chronopie. I love his reason.

@Parama: You have certainly made my scum list, but I'm not going to vote you at this time. At least your trying to get people lynched.

Even with all the accusations of misrepping and reaching, this is apparently a good reason to hold off him :/.

---

Chronopie is still scum, although probably not aligned with Foilist.

[Leafsnail]

637 makes me feel better about Vi... actions seem to make sense now. Phew.

Parama has been tunneling rather hard on nhammen with a poor case. This could be a scum move or a VI move, I'm not really sure. He doesn't respond logically to posts, he just uses emotion.

-.-

...sometimes logic doesn't need evidence to disprove it. Confused Ever hear of common sense? Do you really need a 1,2,3 A,B,C explanation on what common sense means, and how it pertains to your...'logic'?

I don't like this post. It looks sortof like it's trying to undermine Parama without getting directly involved. In fact, over the last couple of pages, Midnight looks like he's attempting to kill discussion.

Foilist is still being seriously scummy, and refusing to give a read on Parama. And he's just OMGUSing madly.

@675 - why do people keep analysing the actions of a basically confirmed townie... it's getting annoying, and is fluff.

679 is retarded stuff from Sevis. It looks like scum ass-covering.

680 sees foilist basically admitting to OMGUSing all those voting him by describing his "cases against them".

Chronopie is still so fecking useless. STATE A SUSPICION NOW FFS

In short:

FoS: Foilist
FoS: Mightnight
FoS: Sevis.
Strangle: Chronopie

[Leafsnail]

Foilist is still being seriously scummy, and refusing to give a read on Parama. And he's just OMGUSing madly.

@675 - why do people keep analysing the actions of a basically confirmed townie... it's getting annoying, and is fluff.

679 is retarded stuff from Sevis. It looks like scum ass-covering.

680 sees foilist basically admitting to OMGUSing all those voting him by describing his "cases against them".

This town has too many VIs.

1) OMGUS by definition needs to happen after someone has already voted you. Everyone voting me did so AFTER I made any attack on them. So try and explain to me exactly how what I did was OMGUS through any possible stretch of logic.

Actually, you're wrong.

You called Parama a VI, and he called you scum. You then... started calling him scum afterwards? I dunno, it's kinda difficult to tell. In any case, you randomly dismantled his case and only accused him after he accused you.

[Leafsnail]

I like the way you're OMGUSing right now. Clearly you have a good sense of irony. If it's not a joke, though, you're obvscum who deserves to die immediately. I strongly suggest you clarify your position.

And you never threw out the possibility of Parama being scum before he accused you. All you said was

You didn't make a good case, and you're a VI by mine.

NOTHING ABOUT HIM BEING SCUM.

[Leafsnail]

4) Leafsnail - Unfounded accusation/misrepresentation. (I'm sure this won't sit well with you, but I'll explain when I'm done here)

Actually, I don't particularly care if scum puts me on their fail-list.

@Leafsnail: Your accusation against me comes down to nothing. You have yet to point out anywhere where I've OMGUSed. Now you've resorted to saying I am what? Making false claims about my previous stances? You have no idea what my stances are unless I tell you. I found Parama scummy. Did I say that? No.

Sorry, I will turn my mindreading capacities on when reading your posts in future. Because it is completely far to accuse someone of misrepping something you were secretly thinking. And of course, town has no reason to say what they thing of things.

Oh My God yoU Suck "for voting me." The phrase means that you are voting someone for voting you. That does not mean that voting the person who just attacked you is OMGUS.

"I have given up trying to make proper arguments, and am instead bringing in a definition"

Let me explain.

You have provided reasons with each vote, I'll agree.

But I am saying that the motivation behind your attack on me is pure OMGUS. Nothing more, nothing less. "Someone is attacking me, I'll weaken him by attacking him back!".

I love the way your biggest defence is not presenting any stances.

[Leafsnail]

Then we will have to agree to disagree. You'll notice that I attacked you through analyzing your posts and pointing out what I found scummy. Granted, you attacking me is what brought my attention to you in the first place, but it did not drive my attack against you.

You can claim it as a coincidence all you want... but you don't seem to be prepared to accuse anyone of being scum firmly until they're on you.

If I were a scummy OMGUS player I would have gone straight after nhammen when he attacked me. I did not find him scummy however, I simply thought he was misreading or particularly dense. I did not jump on his wagon, I told him he had nothing to add to the game.

The first part is WIFOM... I never said you OMGUS'd everyone attacking you. Indeed, part of the problem was that you were using nhammen's case against you to try and undermine Parama (on the aspect of rolefishing, mainly).

Now, I'd like everyone to look at foilist's style of defence. Instead of trying to prove he's town, he's trying to show he isn't OMGUSing. Why? he wants to undermine my case, and add someone to his bizarre scumlist that barely seems to accuse people of being scum.

Incidentally

There are other people I'm not fond of. They simply haven't made my top 4.

Names. Reasons. Now.

Wait...what? That's not what happened. You didn't ask him to respond to everything that's happened in the thread. You just called out Leafsnail for posting in other threads, but not this one. He responded shortly thereafter, saying that he sometimes prefers to gather his thoughts before posting...but then states it's easier to respond when someone posts about him.

@Leafsnail...if it's easier, then why did you need to gather your thoughts? Also...if it's easier to respond when you're being directly accused...were you being directly accused in the other threads you were posting in when Vi called you out in the first place? Finally...why did you selectively quote Vi's initial accusation? It's not as though it was huge.

Completely fair point, I explained poorly.

The thought gathering was looking over the thread in general. I tend to have at least one post a day where I respond to and comment on posts that interest me. I generally make these at some time in the evening. I was gathering my thoughts for the next one of these posts.

However, I prefer to make a more immediate response if someone addresses me directly. Hence me responding to Vi.

I believe the other threads I was posting in were actually non game, and it's a lot easier to copy/ paste a role pm from an old game than it is to respond to a thread.

I selectively quoted because... I dunno, I do that sometimes. Would you regard it as scummy?

Also, with regards to your next paragraph, do you really regard me as "lurking"?

@721 - Ok, I think I'll have to make up a new term for these purposes. To be unoriginal, let's call it "Oh My God! You're Useless!". As far as I can tell, this is a clear OMGYU.

I don't see any reason for you to declare SC as useless other than the fact that he's accusing you. Indeed, he agrees with 2 out of 3 of your reads.

[Leafsnail]

Uh, for some reason I forgot about the last two pages in my previous post.

@Unsight: Someone who doesn't listen to what others are saying. Kinda do there own thing, screw everyone else. ....I think -shrugs-

Are you gonna do ANYTHING other than undermine what other people say?

Vi, I have no idea what I could possibly say to convince you I'm not scum. You seem to be implying I should tunnel one of the more experienced players. I'll try to get a case together on either you or leafsnail, I think.

So you're gonna randomly throw together a case on people you don't seem think are scum because Vi told you to?

:/

Question - who do you think is scum?
Question 2 - why does what Vi said suddenly bring your attention over to different players?

It's called having a town read. That and seeing where Parama's points are coming from, in a 'I could see those points being made as town' perspective, and agreeing with them.

GIVE SOME MOTHERFUCKING SCUMREADS

NOWNOWNOWNOWNOWNOWNOWNOWNOWNOWNOW

---

I'd be down for a wagon on Sevis if he doesn't answer my questions well. Chronopie too, but apparently his active lurking is working on everyone else.

[Leafsnail]

Complying with Vi's request to STFU a bit.

<3 the lynch on chronopie. FINALLY

@mafia side: Can you Nightkill faraday? He's clearly the werewolf in the mason group.

This post made me die a little inside.

[Leafsnail]

No selfhammering if you're town. Seeing who is prepared to hammer and who isn't prepared to hammer is useful information.

Although, since you're scum, you're probably just telling your buddies it's time for one of them to hammer you for town cred.

Complying with Vi's request to STFU a bit.

While I'm grateful one person listened, I don't think I was referring to you per se

Well, you did.

But I'm seeing a lot of you/Parama/Leafsnail/whoever pushing cases I honestly think are wrongsighted and much back-and-forth catfighting about it while the people I mentioned previously scoot by. It is helping me gain a read on YOU, but I already have a read on you and don't particularly need another one.

Which is a fair point. Hence the quieting down.

Midnight's Sorrow's posts are still looking insanely passive. As in, he only ever comments on arguments, not people. It's starting to get wearing.

[Leafsnail]

But the arguments are far more interesting then the people Leaf.

But we're not lynching arguments, are we?

[Leafsnail]

Man, people are suddenly prepared to say a lot more when the noose is around their neck. I think we may be able to apply this principle to politics.

Chonopie's analysis makes no sense... he writes a lot on me, and I don't see why he doesn't FoS me considering how much he's disliked my attacks on him throughout the day. In fact, he seems to rag at everyone on his wagon and then FoS/ vote 5 random people from it.

He also calls Foilist's vote on him "reasoned", which I feel requires further examination tomorrow.

[Leafsnail]

Mod - if two kills are performed on the same target, would the kill flavour change?

I seem to remember reading somewhere that the more dramatic kill method tends to be the one shown (ie if someone's ripped to pieces you don't notice a bullet wound in them). It's quite possible both factions went for him.

Chrono hasn't put up a good defense, and he's digging a deeper hole, trying to claim that more than half his wagon is scummy. Vannilia town? Maybe. We'll see.

Vote:Chronopie

Did you actually think chronopie was scum when you hammered him? If so, roughly how sure were you of this?

Vote: Midnight's Sorrow

. Your ISO made my head hurt... almost EVERYTHING you posted is irrelevant fluff, and none of your posts seem to be even vaguely connected to each other. You also jump on the chrono wagon for no reason at all.

You are pretty much the most active-lurkery player I have ever seen.

[Leafsnail]

Vote: Midnight's Sorrow

. Your ISO made my head hurt... almost EVERYTHING you posted is irrelevant fluff, and none of your posts seem to be even vaguely connected to each other. You also jump on the chrono wagon for no reason at all.

You are pretty much the most active-lurkery player I have ever seen.

Out of all the people this could apply to...you choose me?? Why?

And I do believe I gave a reason for that vote. It seems it just hasn't meet your qualifications.

My bad! I'll do better next time! /dripping sarcasm~

I wouldn't say you've posted the least content, but I would say you've posted the most posts with none, and the most posts masquerading as content. Heck, even this defence is pretty fluffy. Anyone who doubts this should simply read your ISO, and say what percentage of your posts contain tangible content.

As for posting reasons for that vote:

I am happy with one as well.~

Unvote

Vote:CronoPie

Your deflection ("Why me?") is also noted.

That is what I am trying to do, and why I voted Sevis. The one person Vi was adamant about being scum.

Whether or not I believed Vi then, is not the question

, seeing as we all know now that he was town.

Whether or not Vi was killed because of that very reason to make Sevis look bad is not the question either

. Vi was the only one to die last phase, and sanzing any protection role, we can assume that he was killed by the Werewolves.

So what is the question?

WIFOM. You are aware that my wagon started pretty fast(and you not giving a reason for one), over something that could equate to about half of the players on here. Are you also aware that if it wasn't for the fact that you were pretty much confirmed town thanks to being both a monk and mason, that you probably would have been lynched?

No, your attacking the attacker defence will NOT work against a confirmed townie. The last sentence strikes me as especially irrelevant.

Your terribad deflection is, once again, noted.

[Leafsnail]

Leaf:

Your terribad jumping on the smallest things and obvious

trying

to make it into something bigger then it is, when that very small thing could be very easily applied to other people, when ther are probably more BIGGER issues that may or may not be trying to be covered up in this...VERY obvious ploy, is

very

dully noted.~

-.-

Is it possible for you to defend in a way that isn't just undermining your attacker?

You don't even bother to answer a direct question, for Christ's sake. And you deflect randomly. What is the small thing, and who else is guilty of it?

[Leafsnail]

Leaf:

Is the only thing you can do is vote people on

Kettle calls Pot Black

reasoning's?? You haven't been so hot either in the department that your accusing me of. Maybe you should ISO yourself before you start flying accusations off at a whim.

Actually, I have been making accusations and TRYING TO FIND SCUM.

You, on the other hand, have been attacking arguments and occasionally joining a bandwagon. Heck, even now you aren't seriously accusing me, are you? You're just trying to get me to go away.

I think I've said this before on this thread, (to you even! )but if I'm able to undermine

anything

, then the thing I'm undermining is faulty at best, and bs at the worst of times. Can't undermine something that has weight and credibility Both of which you have lacked in your 'attacks'

This is exactly the kindof thing I'm talking about.

[quote="Midnight's Sorrow]I didn't avoid any direct question that I could see. -scratches head- Oh are you talking about that question that asked what was the question? [/quote]
-.-

[quote="Midnight's Sorrow]To answer, I think the question should be, why someone is able to vote someone for shotty reasons, and expect anything that comes from such shoty reasons o make into a 'solid deal' I've said before in this thread too.

B.S only begets more B.S.

[/quote]
We better lynch you before it spreads, then.

If the shoe fits dear. Your deflection from your votes in D1 was being claimed as a mason by your mason buddy and later on to be a monk as well by your monk buddy.

Kettle calls Pot Black

in it's purest form here.

Dear god, this post makes me want to bash my head on a table. Being CONFIRMED AS TOWN is not deflecting.

Post 925, on the other hand, is pretty funny. He yells not to make big deals out of little things while telling us to start analysing nightkills. I mean, Jesus.

It's funny - you posted more content in the last 14 hours than you did in the entirety of day one. Sure, it's all BS deflecting content, but content nonetheless.

I wonder... if a bandwagon forms on you, will you continue to attack everyone voting you?

Incidentally, Midnight's Sorrow, who's scum and why?

[Leafsnail]

Sevis of course, if you've actually read what I've been posting ^^

Who else?

And why didn't you mention all the scum you said you had on your bandwagon?

[Leafsnail]

We should probably look hard at those that seem to be trying hard as well as those that arn't posting much.~

Quoted for motherfucking truth.

Vi also said some great things about you as well too yo~ Razz In fact two of his vote changes went to you~ I can bring those posts up if you want~

Firstly, stop blindly following Vi.

Secondly, he later said he wasn't sure about me. So you'll have to make up your own mind, yes?

Because if I said Ves and Mr Verbose(SSBF) were the ones I thought was town...wouldn't common sense say that I had a scum or neutral read on the others??

The way you attack everyone on your wagon implies it.

If you agree with me about Sevis...then why are you not voting him??

-.-

I'm seriously getting the gut feeling my wagon started because I voted Sevis, being the first one to notice Vi's adamant attacks on Sevis in D-1 and bringing it up. Reasons that seem like the grasping of straws, and very convenient~

No. Your wagon started because of your constant active lurking and bandwagon jumping. Your deflection and undermining of all attackers helped it continue.

Im so sorry that I rarely make big wall posts like you do. Im sorry that I sometimes feel that only a few lines, and maybe a few paragraphs are all that's needed sometimes. I'm sorry I don't scum hunt the same way you do. I can't believe what I was thinking trying to be an individual in here and make my own way in this low some world. I'm sorry that have to defend my self from the great onslaught of stupid that is my wagon, I'm so lost a to what to do, your post made me smile~ Im sorry that my contribution is not good enough for you. I bow to you good sir Sad

I'm sorry that you received a scum aligned role pm.

Now die.

[Leafsnail]

And pray tell me now Leaf. How is what your doing now scumhunting? Your tunneling pure and simple. You don't even seem all that bothered with trying to find scum else where. As long as you get rid of your annoyance right?

Half of the battle is scumhunting.

The other half is making sure the scum you find dangles from the end of a rope.

I'm kinda sorry that you seem so sure that I'm scum for such fail reasons that you conveniently made of me. I'm kinda sorry as well that you seem to have been fishing for "better" reasons to be voting me. And I'm kinda sorry that I'm gonna call you out for if I get lynched today. Its not gonna look good for you.~

Nice AtE. I like the way you say all this while not even voting me.

I don't need to "fish" for reasons - all of your posts are throwing them out by the barrelfull.

You seem to be torn between calling me scum and the realization that I'm not gonna let you wriggle out of the noose this easily.

And as for the Vi thing. I'm simply analyzing what he said about people. He was town. So his words should hold useful for something. I mean....I don't think he kicked the bucket for no reason at all.~ And yeah, I can most certainly make my own assumptions. I'm not as dumb as you make me out to be

So give your own reasons for your suspicions. Especially on Sevis.

[Leafsnail]

How about we actually, you know, acknowledge the fact that the reasons that my wagon stared were for active lurking and 'bandwaggoning'. Let's all agree here shall we?

Fair enough. I believe they are perfectly adequate reasons to vote someone at the start of a day.

Let's also agree that those two are very convenient reason to vote someone. Reasons most inexperienced scum jump at most of the time.~

Firstly, I'm not inexperienced scum.

Secondly, you keep using "convenient". Well, uh, yes, they are. On the other hand, you have been both active lurking and bandwagonning. You do not deny this. You are scum, no matter how "convenient" that fact may be for anyone.

You made your vote on me for those reasons, lets agree with that hmm?

Sure.

Now that we agree with those. Lets move on to the rest of it shall we~ Two people voted for no reason what so ever. Bandwaggoning. You know? Like what I was accused of *cough* TIMEATER *cough* So why are they not getting heat as well? You aware that most of the people arn't even here yet, and have yet to post.

Add "painfully obvious deflection" to the list.

Don't know why you assume so much, Leaf, especially on as little as you have.~ In what instance is it cute nor funny for a townie role to say things like "Your scum! DIE!" with such clarity and vigor Usually the people that scream those those things are scum and/or VI's. Are you a VI Leaf? I hope not

You don't even know what you're accusing me of anymore, do you? "OMG! YOU WANT TO KILL SOMEONE! ONLY SCUM WANT TO KILL PEOPLE!"

:/

the midnight sorrow bandwagon is interesting btw. the intiial reasons were b/c he didn't do fuck all? same could be applied to the guy people are currently switching too. so yeah.

On the other hand, he's been trying to look helpful while not doing anything (scumtell at any level of experience) and has been deflecting, undermining attackers and all sorts of other horrible stuff. In short, scum.

[Leafsnail]

I'm not gonna post any more responses to Midnight's Sorrow's random flailing.

Hey,

foilist

, do you maintain your "anyone who thinks I'm scum is a VI or scum" policy? Can you make a list of everyone you think is "useless" and everyone you think is scum, please?

[Leafsnail]

@Leafsnail: Nice misrepresenting. I'm looking. You'll get a list when I'm ready to post one.

Now. And add "show where Leafsnail has been misrepping you" to the list of things to prepare.

*cough* askbob *cough*

Maybe. Doesn't change Midnight's Sorrow's alignment though.

Ummm? Isn't that the whole point of a defense? I don't understand this. At all.

No.

The whole point of defending is to show that you didn't do the things you are accused of, not to make weak accusations against your attacker to get them to go away. Simply making accusations against anyone who votes you is not a townie thing to do at all.

And you think SGR hasn't? What about askbob?

Deflection is noted. And I don't see why this is a defence - it's not like there's only one scum left.

undermining attackers isn't scummy. In fact, it can be very pro-Town. As long as you scumhunt as well... But I find undermining attackers by itself to be more of a newbtell than a scumtell. Especially considering that you have done this in the past: especially your ISO 8, where you undermine someone's case by calling it reaching. And yet, when Midnight does the exact same thing you have done, you call it scummy.

It's not the exact same thing, firstly. I felt Parama was reaching for something so early in the game, wheras Midnight's Sorrow's "defence" seems to be built on insulting me/ saying I'm attacking me too hard/ calling me scum/ calling me a VI/ saying that active lurking and bandwagonning aren't scumtells/ deflection (pick a random one from this list).

He can go ahead and do it if he's seriously accusing me of being scum, but he isn't. As soon as I say I'm not responding to him anymore, he just says "great!" and doesn't bother to say anything else.

@Leafsnail At one point you stated you were suspicious of askbob. Are you still suspicious of him?

Now that you call my attention to it, yes, definately. He's bandwagonning like nobody's business (switching to Midnight's Sorrow

very

quickly, and then jumping to SGR even though nhammen's roleblock is far from conclusive). And wait, didn't he think nhammen was scum anyway?

Hey, askbob: Do you still think nhammen is scum? If not, why?

If so, why are you more suspicious of midnight than askbob?

I voted midnight because of the 3 pages of nonsense in his ISO. It looked extremely active-lurky to me, so I put a vote on him, since he's received no attention so far.

Since then, it's his reaction that's kept me on him, and kept me thinking he's the scummiest player around.

At one point you stated you were suspicious of sevis. Are you still suspicious of him?

Because he hasn't posted once since I expressed suspicion of him. So yeah, I'm still just as suspicious as I was when I first wrote so.

If so, why are you more suspicious of midnight than sevis?

Same reason as above. But Sevis really does need to come out to play. Now.

What is your opinion of SGR?

He hasn't really caught my attention before, to be honest. Actually, I'm kinda curious as to why you blocked him, considering the last thing you said about him before the night was

Well nuts. I tried... I still consider you to be slightly scummy...

If a player uses OMGUS, is this a scumtell? Why?

Yes and no.

Voting someone who votes you for bad reasons isn't necessarily a scummy thing to do. Nor is properly attacking someone who voted you in the past.

On the other hand, persistently focusing only on those who attack you, and then ignoring them after they leave you is very scummy.

[Leafsnail]

Actually, Michael said that both kill methods would show up if Vi was double targetted, so we can at least eliminate that possibility.

That said, I don't think it's likely nhammen blocked the kill, especially since I don't see much reason for him to have blocked SGR last night.

[Leafsnail]

So, I find Midnight wagon has no real evidence.

Would you mind explaining this sweeping assertion?

[Leafsnail]

So, I find Midnight wagon has no real evidence.

Would you mind explaining this sweeping assertion?

because

one of your

main points is "your posting fluff" which can be one (just as eaily) by both sides.

Elaborate and explain why the other accusations are wrong.

[Leafsnail]

This post (Made by Midnight) expresses my feelings about the wagon.

Leaf:

Your terribad jumping on the smallest things and obvious

trying

to make it into something bigger then it is, when that very small thing could be very easily applied to other people, when ther are probably more BIGGER issues that may or may not be trying to be covered up in this...VERY obvious ploy, is

very

dully noted.~

So you're using deflection as a defence as well? Great.

I don't see how anyone can call posting basically no content throughout the whole of day one a "small thing", but hey, what do I know.

[Leafsnail]

With 24 players and 1 NK, I'd say there was probably at least TWO kills blocked last night, not just one.

So if nhammen "blocked" someone, I'd say it's a good guess that person has a killing role.

Everyone loves outguessing the mod and rolefishing!

(In case someone needs me to explain, "Hey, SGR, are you a vig?"

Sorry, vote sgr. I don't see why we don't test this out.

Lowell

is scum.

What weak accusations to make them go away? Where did this come from? I said that undermining your attacker is the whole point of defense. And your response says, no, it is saying you didn't do what you are accused of. Which... wait for it... undermines the attacker.

Oh... you mean it in the looser sense of indirectly lowering their position. Ok, fair enough. What I meant was simply attacking the attacker to make their case on you seem weaker.

Not deflection. Not a defense. This is independent of whether midnight is scum. Many players believe that attacking one player for something, but not attacking others for the same thing is scummy. Heck! Parama used that as his case against me. I am trying to find out how sincerely you are pushing this, so that I can tell if it is scummy. Attempt to discredit this evidence is noted.

It was used against you in a big way... part of why I never joined your bandwagon.

The reason I asked these questions is because you completely dropped these cases to push the case on midnight. You can attack more than one player at a time. So I was wondering what the reason was for dropping these cases.

I wanted my full focus on M S (for reaction reasons) at least briefly, since he had no attention at all day one.

Well, you like to accuse players of OMGUS, but I haven't seen anybody do the version of OMGUS that you call scummy.

See: foilist.

I don't think I've used it as the basis for any serious case other than M_S or foilist.

One guy from each mafia group should claim their team so we know if there is a mafia werewolf

No, it'd be like being a Mafia Townie. It just doesn't work.

1055 - THANK YOU. And MS responds with an excellent fluff post.

Timeater - firstly, what makes you so sure nhammen is town? Secondly, what makes you so sure he blocked the mafiakill?

Everyone, stop voting Socrates and lynch foilist.

Actually, since my read on foilist from yesterday stands, this is a very tempting proposition.

I want to see what he has to say for himself today.

[Leafsnail]

Timeater - firstly, what makes you so sure nhammen is town? Secondly, what makes you so sure he blocked the mafiakill?

Did I say he was town?

What makes you so sure he didnt?

If he's lying about being town, there's a good chance he lied about blocking SGR, yes? And thus your case would crumble to nothing.

I'm not sure he didn't - just in a closed game with 22 players left alive there are plenty of other ways to stop a kill.

[Leafsnail]

Do often put words in other people's mouths, Leaf?

I answered both your questions. I did absolutely nothing of the sort.

Crackaddict logic.

You're right, scum would never try to get a townie lynched! Perish the thought.

Like what?

Doctor
Roleblocker (possible if nhammen is lying)
Jailkeeper
Kill-Immune role
Delayer
No kill to frame SGR

Come to mind most readily.

[Leafsnail]

Foilist's last post makes me completely comfortable with a foilist bandwagon.

Vote: Foilist

. Look how he never does anything except write long posts about how he's refuted all accusations of being overdefensive. Heck, he completely forgot about me after I unvoted him. And a lovely bit of deflection in the middle there.

I haven't forgotten about you, Midnight's Sorrow.

But we're still left with someone claiming to have roleblocked someone else and in the process leaving us with waaaaay fewer NKs than standard in a game this size. Right? I'm not willing to watch the socrates wagon die down. His is the only lynch that makes sense.

Lowell is a good alternative lynch. This definately looks like scum trying to force a lynch through... or possibly rolefishing for a vig.

In any case, Socrates is holding up well. I don't see any real reason to lynch him.

[Leafsnail]

Foilist is still obvious for his mad overdefence and the fact he only focuses on his accusers. Post 1126 is hilariously desperate.

Lowell is also probably scum. Nhammen could've done that since he was about to get lynched yesterday... could be indirect defence of foilist?

Timeater is on the same team as foilist. Note the lack of connection with foilist and the vague "attack" on socrates.

[Leafsnail]

I answered your question - nhammen was about to be lynched. If you're about to be lynched, you'll claim anything.

I love the way you accuse me of making unfounded accusations while suddenly switching to me with no other reasons. Really nicely done.

And I don't get accused until I vote you. Would it be possible to get some non-lame, non-OMGUSing scum ITT?

[Leafsnail]

*** Can we play the I continue to fail at chainsaw defence game? ***

I suppose I could indulge you for now.

Code: Select all

1. Foilist
2. Timeater
3. Midnight's Sorrow

Seriously, why the FUCK did I move to the top of your scumlist just because I said you were scum?

[Leafsnail]

Actually Leaf, I've considered you scummy since like page 6.

My request is pretty simple, I don't see the harm in posting their top three suspects. Why the resistance? Why so scared? Just do it.

For those who haven't yet, please post your top three suspects.

I did post my top 3 suspects... which you'd know if you actually read my posts.

You said something about me in ISO post 10, but you seemed to accept my answer in ISO post 11 (yeah, it was just a misunderstanding on my behalf). You then say nothing about me until post 35, but this doesn't seem particularly aggressive. Perhaps 36 was, but you don't actually accuse me... then you ignore me apart from one question until post 43, where you vote me. So no, I don't accept that you've considered me scummy since page 6.

[Leafsnail]

Wow, great stuff.

Noone comment on foilist's scumlist before timeater does.

[Leafsnail]

SORRY LEAFSNAIL I COMMENTED ON FOILIST'S LIST WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT?

Be mildly dissapointed.

As suspected, Timeater didn't flip the fuck out over foilist failing his test in the same way he did when he failed to see the three suspicions I posted.

1) Parama
2) leafsnail
3) nhammen

Bullshit detected: nhammen isn't a lurker. Logically, if "The lurkers" was your third suspicion, then your third suspicion should be the lurker you regard as worst.

You've provided "reasons" (I use the word extremely loosely here) in the form of "It will provide more information if he's town". Well... no, it won't. All it will tell us is that there was a roleblock on Socrates. And the way you phrase it doesn't make it seem like you suspect him at all. I smell a chainlynch attempt here.

[Leafsnail]

As suspected, Timeater didn't flip the fuck out over foilist failing his test in the same way he did when he failed to see the three suspicions I posted.

Dear god you are the master of misrep. Have I flipped out at anyone so far concerning listing their top 3 suspects? No. So what basis do you have for this premise? None.

Timeater is on the same team as foilist. Note the lack of connection with foilist and the vague "attack" on socrates.

Heh. Still not answering questions are we? You would rather make predatory accusations like you have been most of the game coupled garbled misinformation? Oh you would? Ok.

Vote: Leafsnail

Socrates is obviously fighting for his life. Are you all so keen to politely forget SGR?

Anyways, if you must - go ahead, lynch foilist (I am of the opinion Leaf is a better lynch, obviously).

It wont matter that he'd(foilist) be a victim of a feedback loop of non-information and accusation.

His tunnel-vision inquisitors will be put to the blade for their scuminess soon enough.

There.

Also, I love how hard you were defending foilist in this quote.

Right, but I was asking again and asking everyone, obviously. (Note that he later lists his top three like everyone else.)

???

If you haven't noticed, I wasn't quite active for a good portion of the game. Graduation and all that jazz. I don't have to scream to the heavens I think you are scummy for it to be so. I know what I know and truth is truth. Do think that I care if you accept what I think or not?

But you went over 30 posts without accusing me in any way... how can you say you were suspicious of me all that time over something you'd accepted and moved on from? If you're so insistent that's the truth, why were you hiding your suspicions away until I accused you of being scum?

@leafsnail: You're a moron. Read the damn post.

I addressed every point in it, so I'm not sure what you mean by this. In addition, you haven't explained why lurkers are suddenly a-ok rather than the scum of the earth.

Also, gotta love scum that insults everyone who's got their read on him right.

Waffle waffle waffle

And I was supposed to infer all that from your post? Wow. I'm obviously a moron for not having some kind of ESP.

And you still don't say why you think him scum, or why your animosity to lurkers is gone. Great.

[Leafsnail]

Doesn't it seem like Leafsnail is perpetually bending the truth to suit his own arguments and accusations?

2) Your first post. I took it as more than just a mistake on your part. It seemed like an over-eager attempt to discredit me.

I didn't want to make a big deal of it at the time because I wasn't around to do so.

You made over 30 posts in this time. Why wouldn't you be able to say anything about me in them even though I was your strongest scumread?

And ad-hom attacks are not ok.

@leafsnail: You're a moron.

1) I honestly dont think foilist has made that many mistakes this game.

Also, look at this gem from foilist earlier.

When read carefully, Timeater actually comes off as a very intelligent player. His sarcasm and humor have led me not to take him very seriously up to this point, coupled with the fact that he tends to lurk and hasn't seriously gone after any players yet, makes him seem terribly scummy off the bat.

You two are hilariously obvious scumbuddies.

[Leafsnail]

What exactly about that quote of me shows a town read of Timeater?

I didn't say it did. I just said it makes the two of you ridiculously obvious scumbuddies.

to my best approximation, they each have a 1/24 chance of being scum, though that is not taking into account the fact that vezopiraka is confirmed.

This is only true if there's one mafia and one werewolf, and the people who are already dead have a chance of being antimillers .

And please can we lynch obvscum foilist or Timeater?

[Leafsnail]

True story, I have literally never seen Pomegranate caught up in a game. I remember it made her a really easy mislynch target in a game I was scum in a while ago.

I was thinking this in NY 112, but she turned out to be the vig who shot the Mafia Busdriver (and, ultimately, me). It was... a pretty fatal underestimation.

I'm not liking Leafsnail's tunneling. Yes I wasn't a fan of Midnight's Sorrow (Hence my previous Day 2 vote on him), but Leafsnail went on and on and on about Midnight's Sorrow and now foilst13. It's also hypocritical because he called Parama for tunneling, when he's doing the same thing now.

I never accused Parama of tunneling - you can look through my ISO and check. And I'm trying to get foilist lynched because he's obviously scum. I'd also be up for a Timeater lynch, incidentally.

If you even bother to look at the time stamps you'd know it wasn't immediate >.< I can read pretty fast, but hell to the freaking no can I read that many pages in a *Snap* like that... It was a hour or two.

Stop saying I immediately jumped on it because of my first post being my vote on him.

THAT

is stupid. Sorry~

I would say something about this, but since noone else cares about M_S's obviousness I can't really be bothered.

@leaf

I dont consider getting angry and using ad-hom attacks a scumtell. I consider it getting angry. And yes, we are scum buddies. You caught us. Yep, you got it right. Bah! Better luck next game, I guess.

Nice. So can we lynch you now?

Coward.

You and leaf both.

Go die in a hole, scum.

@1326 (Socrates) - how do you work out if people, say, "Aren't mafia"? With no dead scum, aren't both groups basically interchangable?

Eh, he sticks to his principles, but I don't recall him ever doing it to the point of refusing to comment on the game at large, and its not like I am 110% on SC scum. That why I want an investigation on him and not pushing his lynch.

I'm not liking the whole business of pushing a cop to one specific player. Cop should be aiming for scum - specifically giving him a target that isn't your strongest read looks like you're aiming him at a godfather or something.

About the whole townie list thing... it's a lot easier to make those after scum has been lynched. For now, focusing on obliterating scum would be a LOT better.

Also, I'd like someone to explain why noone else dislikes Midnight's Sorrow's behaviour :/.

[Leafsnail]

Don't have time to write anything clever or insightful, but SPYREX I LOVE YOU FOREVER FOR STARTING A BANDWAGON AGAINST MIDNIGHT SCUM

Unvote

.

Vote: Midnight's Sorrow

. Byebye obvscum.

[Leafsnail]

I did read Midnight's Sorrow in ISO at the start of day 2... I stopped when the urge to bash my own brains out with a brick grew too great. Everything about his posts scream newbscum trying to avoid attention and wanting to look like doing something. His reactions to attacks are also bad - horrible deflections and no actual cases.

[Leafsnail]

...Really?

Out of all the people this could apply to...you choose me?? Why?

Your terribad jumping on the smallest things and obvious trying to make it into something bigger then it is, when that very small thing could be very easily applied to other people, when ther are probably more BIGGER issues that may or may not be trying to be covered up in this...VERY obvious ploy, is very dully noted.~

And pray tell me now Leaf. How is what your doing now scumhunting? Your tunneling pure and simple. You don't even seem all that bothered with trying to find scum else where. As long as you get rid of your annoyance right?

(Tunneling accusation is probably fair, but the defence amounts to deflection)

He also out and admits to it here (it's up to you whether you agree with this point, of course):

Deflection =/= Scummy

He also uses broken Tu Quoque a lot... which feels like a slightly modified form of deflection.

"Avoiding attention" is wrong. It's more like... deflecting attention? He successfully avoided it throughout day one, and sortof frustrated anyone who attacked him on day two into submission. I'll try to get a better explanation tomorrow.

[Leafsnail]

Sorry for acting like a newb, but what exactly is deflection? I haven't really seen it on Mafiascum Wiki.

"Person x is doing it too!! Why aren't you attacking them??"

Interestingly enough this is a question that never really got properly answered.

The initial vote? Ridiculous amounts of active lurking.

Hmmm. I think I see something here...

...no wait.....Nope. Still seeing

BS

.

I haven't "avoided" any points made against me Pom. Nice try there

She didn't accuse you of that. Nice of you to let your guilty conscience speak, though.

I'm still getting this "He's scum! Let's just lynch him already God dammit!!" mentality when people vote me.

It's because you are scum.

Forgive me, but I can't jump on the MS wagon that fast. I voted Chronopie D1 for doing just that, and I'm not ready to make myself a hypocrite just yet.

This is scummy. Midnight's Sorrow is on your hitlist, and yet you aren't prepared to vote him since you don't want to appear hypocritical. DON'T ACCUSE ME OF MISREPPING THIS IS WHAT YOU JUST WROTE (if you think this isn't the case, please correct it).

Rggh, I'm digging your style, Spy, but I wish you'd chosen someone other than MS. I know you won't take meta arguments, but when I was literally in a game that was running AS THIS GAME was running and was scum, and got MS lynched with essentially exactly the same sort of reasons, I'm really not hungry to jump on the wagon.

Can you give a link, please?

Spyrx, Your just as hypocritical as Leaf was, when asked why he chose one out of all the ones that the very same accusations could apply to, only to ignore the question, and stick with that one to the exclusion of all else.

JESUS CHRIST ARGH

You know what?

Screw it!!

I'm so absolutely f-ing confident that Sevis/Shrine is scum, that I'll willingly go to f-ing noose myself the next day phase if he flips otherwise!

Robonik can wait!! I sees me some Sevis/Shrine scum~

Unvote
Vote:Shrine

Hilariously sudden change of heart is hilarious sudden.

Also - I don't see the point of making 6 person lists for everyone, but foilist's list is certainly illuminating. He puts obvtown Parama on for "tunnelling" me on for

voting him

"bending the truth". The best part, though, is that he puts Dr Robotnik at the top for "active lurking" and yet has been defending Midnight's Sorrow (also on his list :/) from Spyrex. Awesome work dude.

[Leafsnail]

@leafsnail: I'm not voting MS because I think robotnik is scummier. The hypocryte part would be me jumping on his wagon without reasons, which do exist but are outweighed by robotnik.

But if there are reasons then you can jump on the bandwagon with reasons, surely :/.

It's not a change of heart...I've said time and time again that Sevis/Shrine is scum. I've just decided to fuck it and stick it there anyways. I don't care if no one else sees that he is scum. Nothing has told me he isn't otherwise. So what the diddy is your problem???

The way you said it built it up to be an unbelievably awesome and massive suggestion. In any case, it seems like an odd time to change.

[Leafsnail]

MS is making awesome arguments against Shrine, and is definately not relying on the words of a dead townie to make his case. And he's definately not creating a strawman by talking about NK WIFOM repeatedly.

[Leafsnail]

@MS: It's hard to tell with leafsnail, but I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic.

If you found that hard to decipher... Jesus.

Also foilist, stop helping out your buddies in thread. It's kindof embarrassing to watch.

[Leafsnail]

Then, by no words or actions but your own, you have done a complete 180 on your stance on Sevis/Srhine player slot, from yesterday.

This begs the ultimate question.

Why??

Please provide a fully detailed, and in-depth, answer to the question.

Little answers that doge the question, answers that dwell in the realm of pure WIFOM, and a question for a question will not suffice for an answer.

You have been warned~

What is this I don't even

[Leafsnail]

Why what?

Why did I call scum out on crappy reasoning and then call scum on on crappy reasoning again? Why did I post an obviously sarcastic post followed up by clarification when certain idiots failed to get it? Why is anyone allowing you to live?

[Leafsnail]

@Timeater, Unsight, Spyrex, Leafsnail, SerialClergyman, Dry-fit, Dr. Robotnik, Faraday, Lowell:

What use are your votes serving right now? Do you believe that you are pushing your suspects as much as you should be? Do you believe that your wagon has a high chance of going through today? Do you think that having as many competing bandwagons we have right now is good for town?

Getting scum lynched; yes; possibly; yes respectively.

Not sure why MS is looking town for saying something so obviously wrong (I have not made any kind of 180 on Sevis or Shrine - in fact, I didn't even comment on him before MS started randomly accusing me of it) and then following it up with overconfidence. Eh.

[Leafsnail]

Midnight's Sorrow's last post is just... argh. So dumb. Limiting the options so damn hard.

I don't get these calls for a random lynch. We still have time. Yes, the game needs to get going, but everyone randomly bandwagonning one person isn't gonna give us much information tomorrow. And, to be honest, I can't vote Shrine in good faith - I don't really see what he's done wrong, and it feels like everyone's hitting an easy target that can't fight back.

[Leafsnail]

Ok, well, since Midnight's Sorrow must be modconfirmed as town to everyone else in the game, can I resuggest lynching foilist tomorrow?

@leafsnail: I'm not voting MS because I think robotnik is scummier. The hypocryte part would be me jumping on his wagon without reasons, which do exist but are outweighed by robotnik.

He doesn't want to vote for Midnight's Sorrow, since he hates jumping on bandwagons without additional evidence arising, and he likes to vote for his strongest suspicion. Fair enough.

I would have, except that I didn't want to be on the MS wagon, I wanted to be on the Dr Robotnik wagon. I see I wasn't very clear, my bad. I did have reason to vote MS if I wanted to. Those reasons were not excellent, and they were not my own reasons. This was te hypocrite part. Chronopie did not make himself useful. Me voting him for someone else's reasons would not be making myself useful. I ended up doing something similar with Dr Robotnik some time before that, but those reasons were far superior and worth it.

He restates this - he doesn't want to vote Midnight's Sorrow because of something someone else has said, and without providing enough of his own reasons. Again, fair enough if that's your style, I guess.

Clearly the robotnik wagon is dead, and as promised I am switching over to the shrinehme wagon.

unvote, vote: shrinehme

@anyone voting, or considering voting Socrates: Can someone fill me in on why he is scummy, because I'm not really clear on that one.

He votes for shrine for someone elses reasons, when he isn't his top pick and "without making himself useful".

Now, foilist will probably respond by saying "MISREP" and nothng else. If you do think it's a misrep, foilist, please say how and why, and why your original reasoning and actions were consistant.

[Leafsnail]

Unsight is scum for NOT assisting your mislynch? Which, incidentally, you said you were prepared to die for yesterday?

Vote: Midnight's Sorrow

. Die.

[Leafsnail]

-.-

[Leafsnail]

Explain, firstly, how Unsight could "know" it was gonna be a mislynch. I suppose you're accusing him (and me) of being Mafia Werewolves?

And I haven't avoided answering a single valid question.

[Leafsnail]

ITT: Midnight's Sorrow claims people are scum for not mislynching a townie. Also, you promised you'd take a lynch if he flipped town. I suppose you forgot about that one, huh?

Now now Leaf. You can't decide whether or not a question is 'valid', and not answer them because of that. A question is a question, and if your town, it shouldn't matter how 'valid' it is, you just anwser it and move on. Yet you didn't even have the common decency to do even that. So yeah, you

have

avoided questions.

Firstly, answer the main bit of the post.

Explain, firstly, how Unsight could "know" it was gonna be a mislynch. I suppose you're accusing him (and me) of being Mafia Werewolves?

Secondly, answering useless questions from scum serves no purpose tho the town. Which valid questions do you think I've dodged?

In other news, Socrates could just as easily be the vig/ SK who killed last night (ninja'd) apparently not.

No, third monk hasn't claimed yet.

[Leafsnail]

I haven't forgotten it Leaf. If the Town as a whole feels this is necessary, I will gladly do it. But two does not a whole town make, and I don't even consider you and SSBF town anyways so call me ballzy.~

This does not require a response. You said you were so sure he was scum you'd die if he wasn't.

Now you've amended that to "If the town lynches me, I'll be lynched".

Also: ANSWER. THE. FUCKING. QUESTION. NOW.

Explain, firstly, how Unsight could "know" it was gonna be a mislynch. I suppose you're accusing him (and me) of being Mafia Werewolves?

I found Sevis scummy on day one. By day two he was blatantly being bandwagonned by scum. Also, you're calling me scum for not MISLYNCHING a damn TOWNIE again.

And I've said why I'm voting you again. And again. And again. AND FUCKING AGAIN. Noone else is deflecting like you are. If someone is randomly deflecting instead of defending/ explaining their actions when pushed (fairly randomly, at first) they are scum.

[Leafsnail]

jkyds avuhkjlhdxglkjh dljkfhjdkj kjg hkl jjklf klc klj lkj clg kg j

Explain, firstly, how Unsight could "know" it was gonna be a mislynch. I suppose you're accusing him (and me) of being Mafia Werewolves?

I just wonder why a Townie role would jump on it as quick as you have....

Blatant lying scum is blatant.

Shouldn't it be obvious that I am??? Must I hold your hand, as we cross the busy street??

Ok. So you're accusing him of being a role that doesn't exist.

Awesome.

And what pray tell does Sevis/Shrine eventually flipping Town have anything to do with D2???

And again, the question wasn't even really about me, but the others that your beginning reasons could apply to. You seem to think that the things AFTER the fact are important. Yet they aren't. Not even close.

Noone else has been acting in even remotely the same way. Please name someone who's had the same reaction when pushed, for instance.

[Leafsnail]

I love foilist's horrible, horrible, horrible logic fail. It's just so bad.

How did you calculate the probability of there being a doc in this game? The probability of the doc and werewolf kill lining up? The probability of Socrates doing the kill and so on... Christ. You seem to have just picked a completely random figure out of the air, by denying one possibility for no reason, and then arbitrarily setting the probability between the other two as 50/50.

I also like the way foilist doesn't vote after saying Socrates has to be scum, and then does vote after a claim that makes him far less likely scum. Midnight's Sorrow does the same fucking thing :/. Whether Socrates is town or scum, this wagon is full of fail.

[Leafsnail]

GIGO principle. Garbage In, Garbage Out. Sure, you can accept "givens" but just because there are two possibilities doesn't mean they're equally likely. Heck, we don't even know there are only two possibilities.

You also forgot kill-immune roles and the like... look, basically, percentage can't be worked out. So, the crucial question is nothing to do with the roleblock but is in fact "Does Socrates look like scum to you?".

[Leafsnail]

Vezo...any reason why you don't comment on your remaining monk and mason buddy possibly being the mafia or werewolf?

I'm not asking for names...I'm asking if you think it possible that they may be the ones we're looking for D:

Deflecting rolefishing. Awesome stuff.

"I don't want to know who he is, but is he one of the few people on your scumlist?"

Anyway, foilist or Midnight's Sorrow need to die today. Doesn't really matter which, since they're clearly on the same team, but whatever.

[Leafsnail]

But how could ANYONE know someone is gonna flip town? Again, this only works if someone somehow knows who's in the mafia team AND who's in the werewolf team. Personally, I think Midnight's Sorrow genuinely thought Shrinehme was a member of the enemy scumteam, which is why he agreed to die if he flipped town (a promise which, by the way, he's now broken. I can't see any reason why he's still alive). Foilist too... he's even started deflecting to The Guy Who He Thinks Is Scum But Who He Doesn't Want To Vote For Some Reason. There is still NO explanation for why Foilist refused to vote Midnight's Sorrow (who was on his scumlist) due to "lack of reasons" and then votes Shrinehme with literally no new points.

[Leafsnail]

Vote: foilist

.

I am declaring a new bandwagon as of right now. Anyone who's town and wants to lynch scum should vote him too. If you're his buddy (I'm looking at you, MS) you should vote him now for towncred.

That is all.

[Leafsnail]

I don't see Unsight scum so much and we need foilist dead today.

Midnight's Sorrow is also acceptable.

[Leafsnail]

If he were good town, this is true. If he were a good player, he wouldn't be giving up, no matter his alignment. I don't see the benefit of giving up to either alignment.

Leafsnail, your vote post seems awkward. I feel like you're trying to take credit for starting the foilist wagon when there's already a vote on him.

Sure, you can have the credit if you want. I just wanted to make it clear that we're pushing this lynch home today.

[Leafsnail]

@Parama:

1) Like I said before, post bullet points. I don't even remember what the case was, but I recall it being useless.

2) Nikanor's case is limited to one tell, and that one is under question.

3) There certainly is pro-town motive. I haven't seen anything at all that I consider useful from you, yet people gravitate towards your confidence. That makes you a wild card, something which is exceedingly dangerous to the town especially in Lylo where you don't need to convince anyone of your random certainties.

Hey, foilist, I'm voting you as well. You're forgetting to try and undermine me.

[Leafsnail]

@Leafsnail: You aren't as random and don't sound as good

Wait, I don't sound as good... so you aren't undermining me? You forgot I was near the top of your suspicion list when I was voting you yesterday?

Ok, I think we all need to agree that there are in fact 6 scum. How are we even going to know when we get to lylo or mylo if we don't come to the pretty easy consensus on how many scum exist in this game. There is no other number that makes sense unless there's an SK, but that seems impossible at this point.

This is so dumb it hurts. The logic in it is actually
"We need to know when we get to lylo."
"Therefore we need to know the number of scum."
"Therefore we need to take an optimistic guess at the number of scum and treat it as gospel, in order to avoid running into lylo without us realising."

I mean... seriously. I've seen an 18 player game with 3 on each scumteam and few PRs (and that was won by town).

Nikanor's point against you is completely valid, but it's more like the tip of the iceberg.

[Leafsnail]

Wait, MS, I'm on your list? You've never like... done ANYTHING to try and get me lynched. Or even called me scum before, for that matter.

Wow, I guess OMGUSing runs deep.

[Leafsnail]

You haven't, no. Today you've been randomly attacking all sorts of other people (since I wasn't that much of a threat to you earlier, I guess).

[Leafsnail]

God knows why Midnight's Sorrow just voted foilist. Perhaps he's finally decided to get some towncred by voting him. I dunno.

V/LA starting tomorrow till friday. Yeah, a lot of people have holidays round now.

I should be able to post tomorrow, though.

[Leafsnail]

Vote: foilist

.

Well, at least today's going to plan.

Also, since I'll have no way to confirm it tomorrow (mafia seem to be gunning at the masons), I might as well say it now - I am the final monk.

[Leafsnail]

I was thinking furcelow was on foilist before unvoting, but apparently not. Yeah, it is L-1.

[Leafsnail]

Well, at least we've got scum now.

Vote: Furcelow

.

Furcelow is mafia (obvious links to confirmed scum foilist).
MS is mafia (obvious links to confirmed scum foilist).
Richard is scum (he's acting basically like foilist). You're asking people to "prove" that you're scum. Well... the only way to prove it is to lynch you, right?
Parama's case on Unsight is sound, although Furcelow is far more obvious for his post hammer vote yesterday. Although I seem to remember someone else doing exactly the same thing... was it MS? Foilist? Eh.

[Leafsnail]

Eh,

Vote: Ythan

then.

[Leafsnail]

If it's identical to the one in the OP, what the heck does it prove?

[Leafsnail]

Oh wow... you're right...

It's totally impossible to remove the quote tags from it and then preview it...

[Leafsnail]

Yeah, it's still a modkill :/.

Pretty damn stupid way to go.

On the other hand, we can now lynch Ythan.