NY 114: Mafia vs. Werewolves (Game Over)

[nhammen]

Wow! Game has started already! And it's 8 pages long. Well, I have done a brief read through, and I agree with the people that say that SSBF is VI Town. I also don't really see the case on Parama, other than that he is tunneling a bit much, which is something, but not enough for me. I do remember seeing a case presented on vezopiraka a few pages back that I can agree on though.

Vote: vezopiraka

[nhammen]

@vi's questions: I have 10 completed games on site. Check wiki for more. I consider myself slightly experienced. In some games I am able to quickly catch an entire scumteam, in others I am unable to find even 1 member.

@SSBF's question: 2 most scummy players? hmmm... Well I can't say the player I'm currently voting for anymore. Lynchmepls after the latest string of posts. As for the other... askbob I guess.

@softclaims: 2 already? Seriously? Fail. Well hey, at least if lynchmepls is not Mafia, we have two liars.

unvote
vote Lynchmepls

@mod can you tell us when the scum are no longer able to talk?

[nhammen]

I like this fence. I think SSBF is either scummy or over eager town, and I haven't made up my mind yet. I also think egging the whole thing on has been good for town. I'd be surprised if Parama AND SSBF are both town. I wanted to see how it shakes out.

Looks very scummy to me. It's like every sentence is its own scumtell.

@LMP if you think he's lying... why aren't you voting him?

[nhammen]

@askbob They had already softclaimed. Or did you somehow miss that? And there is absolutely no reason to cuss that much in your posts.

BTW, this explains much. First off, vezopiraka probably assumes that since Masons are only confirmed non-Mafia, there is a Werewolf among you. This is outguessing the mod, so not a good idea at this point in the game.

The only unanswered question is what information he has on LynchMePls.

unvote

until vezopiraka can explain the LynchMePls information.

[nhammen]

I explained because my masonmates were being retarded. It seemed required to claim.

Also, I just found out from the mod that it's possible that my masonmates might be werewolves.

Great. So much for confirmed town.

Explain this.

The whole point of "Mason" and not "Neighbor" is the whole confirmed town part.

Request clarification from mod?

Somewhere in the Open Setup thread is an open setup that includes two scum groups: Mafia and Werewolves, as well as two other groups: Masons and Monks. Masons are confirmed non-Mafia, but could be Werewolves. Monks are confirmed non-Werewolf, but could be Mafia. I am assuming, from what vezo and Seraph have said, that the situation here is similar.

[nhammen]

@foilist 300: Maybe it's my experience from the Rocissi games, but you are missing something obvious, and your post makes no sense.

I will take the 6)answer: Something you didn't talk about.

Seraphim claimed for whatever stupid reason he had.
I'll

Unvote
Vote daniel94581

If anyone has anything to gain from a mason dying, it would be a non-town-aligned mason. Regardless, daniel looks by far the most town of the three to me.

fos vez

Lowell, what you don't understand (but would if you had ISOed vezo AT ALL) is that vezo believes that since the Masons are not confirmed non-Werewolf, one of them must be a Werewolf. This is a bad assumption of his, but you can clearly see that this is his assumption in all of his posts. His information on LMP on the other hand, I have no idea. But it doesn NOT need to be revealed at this time.

Unvote

I like foilist13's posts on the matter of vezopiraka and daniel. 300 brings up an interesting point, but I don't think it applies in this case -- to be blunt, I do not feel daniel thought things through anywhere near as far as that. It also does not seem likely that people in a scumteam would be accusing each other (except to bus... but it would be Seraphim doing that, not vezopiraka). For now, I believe Seraphim's claim.

Leafsnail's ISO looks fine to me.

I was expecting vezopiraka's attack on LMP to be an attempt to push a lynch for his main suspect. This version doesn't work if LMP has some sort of information on vezopiraka, though.

SGRaaize's second post looks very unusual to me. He's on the fence with SSBF, `curious' about the matter but not doing any questioning. He's also not been too clear about accusing Parama and Lowell.

Vote: SGRaaize

I simply found SSBF way too tense, I don't suspect him lol

Parama has been completely insane and weird in his arguments against SSBF, trying to force a lynch somehow, very scummy IMO

So defensive after one vote?? And still sitting on that fence. I actually agree with Sevis here.

@foilist 328: STOP ROLEFISHING!

vote foilist

@Chrono 331: Lowell 332 says all I need to say about that.

@foilist 347: STOP ROLEFISHING!!!!!!

@Serial 350: I HIGHLY disagree about foilist being Town. He has a old enough join date that he should know how bad rolefishing is. And I'm right here. It's only been 2 days.

@askbob 364: Please scumhunt instead of commenting on the Mason stuff. And for your info, Seraph's play was the right play.

@Dry-fit 365: Sit on that fence some more please.

@SGR 370: If I didn't think foilist was scum I would be totally coming after you.

@Chrono 379: Not you too! DO NOT ROLEFISH!

@Chrono 382: STOP ROLEFISHING

FOS: Chrono

foilist, SGR, and robotnik are the current scummiest players IMO.

[nhammen]

Parama, rhetorical rolefishing is still rolefishing. And if you don't think that was rolefishing, you must be seriously blind. As for why foilist and not chrono? I just figured that foilist's was trying much harder to disguise itself as something else. You claim you read the posts in question and did NOT think they were rolefishing??? I do not understand how you could possibly think that.

[nhammen]

Oh and as for why I didn't vote SGR? I don't do that stupid vote one player, and then vote another in the same post. It is completely useless, so why do it at all?

[nhammen]

So you think that asking what role he could possibly have that would explain these actions is NOT rolefishing? Or did you just read this in some other language?

Hidden rolefishing is scummier than blatant rolefishing. f they are Town, they have NOTHING TO HIDE.

[nhammen]

2 days?

[nhammen]

SSBF: But less isn't

[nhammen]

Seriously? Nobody else sees the rolefishing? OK. I'll show where I see it, and you all can judge. One moment...

[nhammen]

foilists 328 was in response to a post of vezo's which responded to this post of foilist's:

I have somewhat of an inside source and I can tell you that lynchmepls is in the mafia but he's not werewolf. And no I don't know this cause I'm scum.

What? Ok, so you have role information presumably?

Based on this you know the following information:

1) There are in fact two scum factions. The werewolves and the mafia. This isn't too farfetched as this is Mafia vs. Werewolves.
2) lynchmepls is mafia.
3) lynchmepls is not a werewolf, but one could be both.

Now how do you know all this?

You have an inside source. This doesn't imply that it was simply stated in your role pm. Ok, possibilities.

1) You are a cop who can differentiate between mafia and werewolves, and can investigate N0.
2) You are a cop who can differentiate between mafia and werewolves and can investigate during the day.
3) You have a role relationship with lynchmepls, i.e. lovers.
4) You are a werewolf and able to detect mafia. (This is assuming you mean scum as part of that scum team, and therefore not mafia)
5) You're a lying scumbag.
6) Something I didn't think of.

So basically this amounts to significant scumhunting ability, where you chose to out your results, but not your role. Why would you do that? Usually when one accuses someone based on role information they claim to back up their accusation. I don't think I've EVER seen people believe someone based on an accusation like that.

Massive rolefishing here. But I had not mentioned it in my post, because that was before my last post... I think.

Here is post 328:

I will take the 6)answer: Something you didn't talk about.

Seraphim claimed for whatever stupid reason he had.
I'll Unvote
Vote daniel94581

1) Saying it's something I didn't think of isn't good enough.

You have to explain what that is

, because I'm pretty sure I exhausted the possibilities.

2)

If you do have some kind of magic role, why don't your mason mates know about it?

The only reason I can think of is because you are a werewolf.

3) Normally I would be extremely annoyed at you for voting without an explanation. You however took it to the next level and not only didn't explain your vote, you voted for your mason mate! You're supposed to KNOW their alignment. If they could be werewolves, then yes he COULD be scum, but that isn't anything close to a reason to vote for him. The probability of him being scum is actually lower for him than your average player.

Reasons. Now.

As you can see, vezo refused to give any more info. Good. And foil's response has 2 questions DIRECTLY related to his role. I don't see how this isn't rolefishing.

@daniel: Your last post looked really bad. Why did you made a bigger size and bold? And you know how I got that information.

Ok, so Daniel knows about vezopiraka's magic role giving him info. That means that vezopiraka has either outed it to the masons, or to the werewolves and he and Daniel are both werewolves. The second option is unlikely.

@Seraphim:

Did you know about vezopiraka's role? If so, does it justify his knowledge that lynchmepls is scum? If so, why aren't you voting lynchmepls and trying to get him lynched?

@Daniel: Did you actually know how he had this information? If you did, why did you call him out about it? If you did, why aren't you voting lynchmepls and trying to get him lynched?

No I'm not some kind of cop. Also I'm not sure but at least of daniel or seraphim should be a werewolf.

To me your making this up but if anyone is it must be seraphim because I'm not.

Ok so you're not a cop.

You do however have the following information.

1) lynchmepls is mafia.
2) either Daniel or Seraphim is a werewolf.

I will take the 6)answer: Something you didn't talk about.

Seraphim claimed for whatever stupid reason he had.
I'll Unvote
Vote daniel94581

Ok, so you are none of the possibilities I mentioned. However, you are so confident in your information you are voting your mason mate on what is presumably a 50-50% chance, unless you have MORE information we don't know about.

So you are sure lynchmepls is scum, yet you feel strong enough about Daniel being a werewolf that you are voting him. Why?

And where are you getting your information? I've never seen someone make this many statements of role info without claiming to back it up. I have absolutely no reason to believe anything you've told me, and you're lack of meaningful response isn't helping.

I have no intention of changing my vote on you anytime soon.

Yeah, definitely no rolefishing here.[/sarcasm]

The way he is pushing this rolefishing just strikes me as scummy, while chrono's doesn't. I've explained as best I can.

[nhammen]

Oh yeah, and that red was my addition, to show to those who can't see it, where the rolefishing is.

[nhammen]

a list of possibilities that are equally likely and ASKING WHICH ONE IS CORRECT IS!

Holy crap you are going to great lengths to defend this! Maybe I need to change my read of you...

[nhammen]

Holy crap you are going to great lengths to defend this! Maybe I need to change my read of you...

Lol! Epic threat..

That was to Parama not you.

(Note he's still saying IT WAS FISHING not THEY ARE SCUM)

I am?

The way he is pushing this rolefishing just strikes me as scummy, while chrono's doesn't. I've explained as best I can.

I don't think I am.

Ooh, ooh, nhammen and c-pie are so partners. Check out the bolded.

The way he is pushing this rolefishing just strikes me as scummy,

while chrono's doesn't.

I've explained as best I can.

@Chrono 379: Not you too! DO NOT ROLEFISH!

@Chrono 382: STOP ROLEFISHING

FOS: Chrono

Which is exactly why I only FOSed Chrono. OK, I worded the while chrono's doesnt statement badly. Big deal.

So foilist was speculating on roles.

No, he wasn't speculating. He was trying to get vezo to tell him what other role info he had. PERIOD.

His attempt to defend "but foilist WAS rolefishing! and Chronopie wasn't" was kind of funny.

Next time Iform a case, and someone attacks the case, I'll just let the baseless accusations stand. WHen I say he was rolefishing, and others say it's not true, I show evidence TO BACK UP MY CLAIM! Why is that so scummy?

If someone says "I have a role with incriminating information; do you want me to reveal it", the answer is "yes, and why have you waited until now to talk about it". I don't have a problem with the people who have pecked into daniel's softclaim, vezo's attempt to softclaim, and LMP's softclaim - although the people who have attacked them for claiming (i.e. YOU'RE SUCH A MORON FOR CLAIMING) are unsavory at the least. Simply put, if you believe you have helpful information, don't just stand there and wave around that you have it but not tell what it is.

Key word: incriminating. If you have exonerating evidence, you let the scum stew. If your wrong, it can be corrected later. If incriminating evidence is wrong and leads to a lynch, there is no going back. But this, its fine to keep it quiet.

[nhammen]

nice scum catch

Vote: nhammen

If you want me to go back and list every reason I will, but I'm lazy. Others have stated the reasons.

Yes, I would like you to list reasons, because A) the case on me is crap, and if you actually saw the reasons, you'd know that and B) the way you jumped onto this wagon looks extremely scummy to me.

Good enough for me.

unvote, vote nhammen

Same: I would like you to tell me what you see as scummy.

[nhammen]

The problem with Nhammen's posting now is that he hasn't done anything to disprove my main points.

Your main points are absolute crap! I try to disprove and nobody thinks these arguments are any good. Have you ever tried to argue with a Creationist? Same thing. Or at least it feels that way to me. But maybe that is my viewpoint.

It seems it is time for me to claim. I am a

roleblocker

. And I would also make claims about the intelligence of the people on this wagon, but I think that would be against the site rules.

Also, the vezo info was obvious to anybody that was paying any attention at all. And I would have preferred that there was no claim, so that no matter what LMPs alignment, the Werewolves would think he is Cop and would kill someone that is only partially confirmed rather than someone that is completely confirmed.

Well, now what?

[nhammen]

nhammen, who is scum?

Ugh! I don't know any more. I still feel like SGR is scum. My suspicions of foilist have decreased, because we were operating under different assumptions:
my assumption-non of the Masons should be lynched, LMP should not be lynched because he is claiming a type of role (specifics don't matter at this time)
his assumption-vezo had a "guilty" on LMP we should determine whether to follow this.
My assumption was based around the presumption of innocence and his around the guilt. Or at least after rereading, that is the way I see it.

unvote

The wagon on me HAS to be scum driven. There is no way there could be this many mistakes unless there is a scum pushing them. I hope that Parama is scum. Otherwise he is... I really shouldn't say what I was about to say. I had a Town read on Serial. His defense of Parama bothers me, but my Town read is still there. I agree with the arguments that Chrono's "I agree" vote looks bad. Seraphim is Mason, so I am going with the probabilistic approach and saying more likely to be town. Your hop on the wagon gives Town points. Dry-fit's does not as much, but still not too bad. And pman's looks really bad. I would also be bothered by Lowell's similar, if I hadn't seen him do the same so many times. sevis' 430 agrees with my case and then votes me. Does not compute... midnight is either scum buddying to me or smart Town, and I'm leaning toward the latter for now. And then we get 2 Monks on the wagon.

So, who is scummy on the wagon?
Parama
Chrono
pman
sevis

Who is scummy off the wagon?
SGRaaize
robotnik
askbob

I don't even remember anything about Timeater or Goat. Both have lurked heavily.

SO that's 9 players all told. My guess is 3 on each scum-team. So 3 have to be removed. Not sure which. But I know where I'm putting my vote.

vote SGRaaize

See previous case.

[nhammen]

Because I was suspicions of him before this whole mess started... That seems a good place to leave my vote for now while I read up on everyone that I listed in that post. Well, except robotnik, Timeater, and Goat... nothing to read up on there. Too much lurking.

[nhammen]

Actually add pman to the group of lurkers...

[nhammen]

SGRaaize

Very defensive. Also somewhat indecisive.

I am always defensive, I don't like misunderstandings, accumulated misunderstandings always result in a lynch, it would be far worse if I tried to correct all of you when I was at L-3

Meta Warrior needs links badly!

unvote

to let him provide previous Town games, to see if he actually is always defensive.

Chrono

Fluff. Active fluff. I think there's another term for that.

His vote on me is bad. His explanation for that vote is bad too, but I think all of the explanations have been bad, so I'm obviously not a good judge.

My Voting nhammen was based on the fact that his post was lacking in actual content, for a post so long.

Ugh...

Chrono, who are you suspicious of? 6 names.

askbob

Lots of posts. And zero content. He's even worse about it than Chrono.

Ok, there is an attack against vezo for rolefishing... The rest is telling people to stop voting Masons, which I agree with. But there are no cases, no scumhunting.

Who are you suspicious of?

Parama

Because I make valid points that you cannot deny, I'm scum?

I have tried to defend against these arguments, but to you that just makes me scummier. So maybe I should turn the question around, "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" I mean, if you want to make me look scummy no matter what answer I give...

Note that your argument is even weaker since there are two scumteams thus scum would want to find each other.

Shit, you are right...

You call me scum for no reason, call my case crap for no reason, and you're just not even trying at all.

Not trying??? Not trying? HAVE YOU EVEN READ ANYTHING I HAVE SAID??? Arg this game is getting depressing.

Wow, he likes to tunnel!
@Parama links to previous games please. I'd like to know if you tunnel like this always, or if it is something unique to this game. (Should have asked this when he was tunneling SSBF.

Also, the post in which he votes me could be considered distancing from SGR. He votes SGR but immediately pulls the vote off. But this depends on SGR's flip first, so yeah.

Sevis

I already stated that sevis' vote doesn't make sense. But we are in multi-scum, so he could agree with my scumhunting and still think I'm scum. Except for one fact: Parama's entire case was a disagreement about my scumhunting methods. So, sevis, what did you find scummy about me? I would like your case.

robotnik

,

Timeater

, and

Goat

Lurkers! Possible scum, but no read yet.

pman

Both a Lurker and scummy! Hello! Very few posts. His jump on my wagon says oh I don't need to give a case, others already did so. So I'll just join in the fun!

At this point I will

vote pman

And, to emphasize the questions up to here, I will restate them:
@pman what are your reasons for voting me?
@Lowell what are your reasons for voting me?
@sevis what are your reasons for voting me?
@SGR could you provide links to previous games?
@Parama could you provide links to previous games?
@Chrono Give me a list of the 6 people you find scummiest.
@askbob Give me a list of the 6 people you find scummiest.

Also, is it just me or do Midnight's actions look like buddying? But why would a scum buddy to a player that might be a member of the opposite faction? So at this point, I am taking his posts at face value... I hope this is not wrong.

That's now what I was implying. By accusing me of being on the fence he was saying I was accusing a lot of people without taking a firm stance on any of them. I assume he said this because I didn't place a vote in that post. The reason for that is that I was previously voting for one of them (you) and this just added to my case. However, with your claim and recent posts I think it's likely you're town.

No, I was saying you were fence-sitting about the robotnik case. On the one hand, the wagon is scummy (case is bad) on the other he is scummy (case is good).

His doublepost adding pman to the group of lurkers suggests that he was actually trying to reread the game (although he hasn't come back yet after seven hours so etc.).

Wow! That is exactly right. And after pman I got bored and left, because it would take a lot of work and I could finish after dinner... As for the discussion about AtE, I think putting input into that myself would qualify as WIFOM, so I wont.

BTW I am surprised to be seen as a good player. Especially given that every single last one of my reads in the linked game and the conversation afterward was completely wrong...

[nhammen]

Holy cow! That post took me 2 hours... I was right to think that it would take a lot of work...

And because these weren't as emphasized as I thought, I will restate them again:
@pman what are your reasons for voting me?
@Lowell what are your reasons for voting me?
@sevis what are your reasons for voting me?
@SGR could you provide links to previous games?
@Parama could you provide links to previous games?
@Chrono Give me a list of the 6 people you find scummiest.
@askbob Give me a list of the 6 people you find scummiest.

[nhammen]

I only use meta occasionally. In fact, the only case I have ever used it, is if a player uses scummy behavior that they claim to have used as Town, or that I knew they had used as Town. For example, I would be attacking Lowell pretty hard, but I have seen him act exactly like this in a previous game in which he was Town. So my case is null.

SGR's defensiveness is scummy, but he says he always does it. If he does, my case is null. If he doesn't he's lying. Tada! Parama said he used tunneling as a tactic. Similar situation.

[nhammen]

How have I done no scumhunting? I just went through the entire thread and counted posts and found some lurkers.

That is your idea of scumhunting??

/looks at join date. Oh...

Lurking can be scummy, but it can't be the only thing you look for. By itself it means nothing. Although later it means you have no read, so... But this is all getting off of the subject of, you need to look for more than just lurking.

[nhammen]

And I would gladly post links from my previous games where I was confirmed Town if it was in this forum, but I don't like posting other private forums where I am, part of my moral.
Sorry, bud

Provide links anyways. NOW! You stated that you are always defensive. I want to find out if you were lying.

Lol Nhammen is going to use meta.

unvote, vote nhammen

Why are you worried about me using meta? This triggered some major scumvibes, so I went to his wiki page and saw Mafia 109. Which showed me that:
Parama does have a meta of tunneling.
Hard.
On Town players.
He's worse than charter...

Nhammen is getting even worse.

Explain. Now! You keep saying how great your arguments are, but I have refuted them all, and you have said nothing about this. It has really pissed me off!

Now Serial and Vi have discussed my meta. The closest I can find to what is happening here is Newbie 850. I have only ever been wagoned 3 times, and in each of the other times, there have been arguments that I could defend against, or at least try to. This time, I try defending and NOBODY listens. It is really pissing me off. And I am sorry if my temper is getting the better of me. But the only actually good arguments at all have been Serial's. Not one other player has had good arguments. And I have defended against all as best I could, and Parama's response is "oooh! he's getting worse!" Arg! I need to stop thinking about this case...

Yep, nhammen our reads sucked that game, but you're lucid, reasonable, rational and you think a lot about the game. Everyone has bad reads from time to time (mine were awful, as you know) but certain fundamentals are important. And they're also lacking in this game.

I don't think I had a completely baseless wagon on me in that game though.

My next post will show that I have destroyed Parama's case against me, and he has steadfastly refused to listen.
And SGR,

your

next post had

better

show links to previous games.

[nhammen]

I will ISO all of Parama's posts that discuss my case, and reply to them one-by-one.

First I will start with the initial case:

Nhammen's post has made everything crystal clear.

So defensive after one vote?? And still sitting on that fence. I actually agree with Sevis here.

This is a good point and a good reason to vote someone... and yet you don't.

That same post contains this:

@SGR 370: If I didn't think foilist was scum I would be totally coming after you.

Hey, look a reason... And from a later post:

Oh and as for why I didn't vote SGR? I don't do that stupid vote one player, and then vote another in the same post. It is completely useless, so why do it at all?

Oh, look, another one.

@foilist 328: STOP ROLEFISHING!

vote foilist

@foilist 347: STOP ROLEFISHING!!!!!!

Looking at those two posts, they aren't really rolefishing... at all. More rhetorical questions adding to his points. And regardless that's not a good reason to vote.

Well, I have completely refuted the not rolefishing part

and so had foilist, who stated that it was

. As for not being a good reason, I disagree. At the time I though it was very scummy.

@Chrono 379: Not you too! DO NOT ROLEFISH!

@Chrono 382: STOP ROLEFISHING

FOS: Chrono

This is genuine rolefishing by Chrono, yet you merely FoS.

foilist, SGR, and robotnik are the current scummiest players IMO.

And not Chrono, for doing the same exact thing you accuse foilist of? Note that foilist isn't really rolefishing though you accuse him of it, while Chrono is.

This has been defended here:

The way he is pushing this rolefishing just strikes me as scummy, while chrono's doesn't. I've explained as best I can.

So that was his initial case. Completely defended.

Parama, rhetorical rolefishing is still rolefishing. And if you don't think that was rolefishing, you must be seriously blind. As for why foilist and not chrono? I just figured that foilist's was trying much harder to disguise itself as something else. You claim you read the posts in question and did NOT think they were rolefishing??? I do not understand how you could possibly think that.

Yup. Foilist's questions looked rhetorical (as in, don't answer these) and were lead-ins to his major points, which happen to be quote solid.

Chrono's posts are just blatant rolefishing.
The most damning evidence is a lack of you putting Chrono on your scumlist for the same offense that foilist (your VOTE) committed.

Also, Chrono, it's too late to bus for town-cred since your buddy outed you both.

Same argument, already defended.

If it doesn't look like rolefishing, then it isn't. If you think it looks like rolefishing, you're lying.

Except for the fact that, hey, I'm not lying! And foilist has said it was rolefishing! So wait, doesn't that mean that this statement of yours was a lie? An accidental one, but still a lie.

Also, by your definition of townieness, every power role should claim immediately.

Serious misrep, when I was saying they have nothing to hide, I meant that if they are rolefishing they shouldn't be trying to disguise it as not rolefishing.

They're VOTING for each other now?? What the hell kind of mason team is this?

I will take the 6)answer: Something you didn't talk about.

Seraphim claimed for whatever stupid reason he had.
I'll Unvote
Vote daniel94581

1) Saying it's something I didn't think of isn't good enough. You have to explain what that is, because I'm pretty sure I exhausted the possibilities.

2) If you do have some kind of magic role, why don't your mason mates know about it? The only reason I can think of is because you are a werewolf.

3) Normally I would be extremely annoyed at you for voting without an explanation. You however took it to the next level and not only didn't explain your vote, you voted for your mason mate! You're supposed to KNOW their alignment. If they could be werewolves, then yes he COULD be scum, but that isn't anything close to a reason to vote for him. The probability of him being scum is actually lower for him than your average player.

Reasons. Now.

You don't see any rolefishing in this post? It's all just rhetoric to you?

1) is frustration becausse vezo is being a VI, asking for an explanation on something that doesn't make sense
2) is a good question that doesn't have anything to do with rolefishing
3) has nothing to do with rolefishing in the slightest

1) Asking him to explain his role isn't rolefishing?
2) Rhetorical statement that is still rolefishing.
3) asking for the reasons for a vote, when his target had previously stated that he had role reasons for his vote... hmmm, yeah that has

nothing

to do with rolefishing at all.[/sarcasm]

Next posts explain how it was rolefishing. Then comes this:

The problem with Nhammen's posting now is that he hasn't done anything to disprove my main points.

Except for the fact that I had, and you refused to admit it. You have three points:
1) I baselessly accuse foilist of rolefishing.
Refuted
2) I found foilist to be scum for rolefishing
True, now explain how that is bad
3) I did not find chrono to be scum for rolefishing
True, but I showed why. You refused to respond to this.

The problem with Nhammen's posting now is that he hasn't done anything to disprove my main points.

Your main points are absolute crap!

^This is not a defense^

I ALREADY DEFENDED MYSELF! Grr!

Because I make valid points that you cannot deny, I'm scum? Sorry for scumhunting then.

No, because you make invalid points that I successfully deny, and then you REFUSE TO ACCEPT THIS, I find you scummy.

call my case crap for no reason, and you're just not even trying at all. I don't see how you can't be scum.

I call your case crap for very god reasons which you NEVER RESPOND TO! I am trying very hard and it is like TALKING TO A BRICK WALL! Eventually I get exhausted from doing this for so long.

Midnight is missing the point.

My original reasons =/= BS
My original reasons = easy logic to follow that damns Nhammen because he knows he's caught

Your blatant defense of Nhammen by calling the logic crap without disproving any of it is noted.

Sorry, but
Your original reasons = BS
As I have REPEATEDLY shown.

Then you don't understand my reasons which means you probably aren't reading my posts since I spelled them out pretty clearly.

READ THE THREAD.

No we understand them. We understand that they ARE INVALID. I have SHOWN how they are invalid. And yet, you keep saying how awesome your case is. And not responding to anything I say.

Nhammen is getting even worse.

Provide EVIDENCE please... I swear you are the worst VI I have ever seen... No DeathNote still takes that spot, but you are in second.

[nhammen]

By the way, there's a saying that defense is useless in Mafia. It's far better to find someone who needs to die more than you do.

So

that's

what I have been doing wrong... I see...

Your posts in that Newbie game actually look nothing like your posts ITT. Seriously.

Yeah, I said that was the closest I could find...

Incidentally, is Parama scum?

Unfortunately no. This matches with the Town play I saw in 109. And that was my only case against him. So....

But he's still annoying the heck out of me with this awful tunneling. Nad not responding to my rebuttals. And repeatedly stating how great this case is without backing it up...

[nhammen]

Nhammen, I can't be a VI if I'm right.

But if at the end of the game, we find out that you are wrong, can I call you a VI? Can I gloat about it in the end of game part of the thread? Can I push for a policy lynch of you in any future game I play with you? Because I soooo want to do that.

And vezo, VI stands for Village Idiot. And VI is not the name of a player, Vi is.

[nhammen]

Here is my response to Serial's posts:

I am so into the nhammen wagon.

1) He uses the old rolefishing accusation style (PYP1 kids??)
2) he's been awful sneaky quiet, hence me calling him out last post.
3) Parama actually rocked the kasbah in his post and is almost certainly town.

unvote, vote nhammen

1) What is bad about me saying rolefishing=scum?
2) I always am quiet. I have a tendancy to only post when I have something useful to say, instead of acting like askbob and posting pure fluff.
3) Explain

This is exactly why nhammen's scum. The defence is 'But he WAS rolefishing' rather than 'But he is likely to be scum'.

That is because Parama said that my accusation was wrong. I was correcting him. And as for not saying he is scum? How about this:

@SGR 370: If I didn't think foilist was scum I would be totally coming after you.

In the original post that Parama attacked me for, I said that foilist was scum. SO what is the problem? If I am not allowed to defend myslef against Parama, then what am I supposed to do here? Notice that Parama's ENTIRE CASE is relating to my accusation of rolefishing.

However your actions suggest an interesting scum strategy that I have never seen used. I mean, in this situation, either Parama finds me scummy for not defending, or you find me scummy for defending. Unfortunately, I find you both Town right now. Otherwise, this would be a brilliant tactic.

I can't tell you how many times scum are the first to overreact to anything that looks like rolefishing (devotress in PYP1, Percy and Baltar in Amished mafia, roflcopter and Yossarian in /inv 4 - these are all in my wiki if you want to check). It's because if they're ever questioned about their suspicions, they don't have to make a case about that person being scum, or show their suspicions - they just need to say 'ROLEFISHING IS BAD, THAT POST IS ROLEFISHING'.

I don't think that nhammen actually believes foilest and chrono are scum because they are rolefishing. Look at his posts - he's telling them to STOP rolefishing, rather than telling the town that he believes he's caught scum.

AND it comes after a suspiciously long absence without him saying much.

OK, so scum have accused people of rolefishing in the past. SO obviously, whenever someone does this, that makes them scum. Gotcha! Except for that previously mentioned line that shows that I considered foilist to be scum. As for suspiciously long absence? Less that 2 days is suspiciously long? If I have to post as often as you want me to, I would have no time left for anything else in my life...

(Note he's still saying IT WAS FISHING not THEY ARE SCUM)

Again, I have to defend against Parama's absolute crap, and that makes me look suspicious to you. My argument was that he is scum BECAUSE he is rolefishing. If the "he is rolefishing" part is false, that makes the whole statement false. So I had to defend against Parama's attacks against that part. Also, notice that he has only once stated that the scum part of the statement was incorrect. All of the rest of his attacks have been on the rolefishing part.

More defense against serial is here and here.

[nhammen]

I already had that all written up, in case you didn't notice

[nhammen]

Chrono and vez need to pay more attention and realize how awesome I am. You're barking up the wrong tree.

You need to pay more attention and realize that you haven't answered my question:

@Lowell what are your reasons for voting me?

Also, can you name the 6 scummiest players, in your opinion? If your list is shorter that's OK, but I'd prefer a large enough number.


A longer post is in the middle of being written, but it has taken too long, and now I need sleep, so I'll finish it up in the morning.

[nhammen]

I was planning on making a really long post today, but I keep putting it off, because it will take too much effort. Of course, this means that my post will have to cover more information, so it will take even more effort, so I put it off even more. It's a vicious cycle. Instead of one big post, I will make multiple smaller ones.

Anyways, while rereading I noticed something:

Hidden rolefishing is scummier than blatant rolefishing. f they are Town, they have NOTHING TO HIDE.

Not buying this at all. How is it "hidden" if he's going so in depth into it? What about it is hiding?

I like parama's case on nhammen a lot. I also think its odd how chrono joined the wagon without talking about how Parama's case implicates him, but I'm not sure how I'd expect him to react to that.

unvote. vote: nhammen

You saw foilists rolefishing. And yet Parama's entire case was that foilist was not rolefishing, so my accusations were baseless. This was later proven flase. But the point here is that you

saw foilist's fishing

and at the same time

agreed with Parama's case

. Explain please.

[nhammen]

Oh goody! SSBF did a player-by-player on page 24! Let's take a look!

(Notice, I see no reason to pollute this with quotes that I agree with, because I agree with most of the reads)

askbob

: He's doing fine so far. He hasn't made a super pro-town post that everyone has loved, but he has been putting forward some efforts into the game in scum hunting and his defending of himself is adequate as well. Digging out pman as a lurker is nice as well. I have a slightly pro-town read on him.

Wait what? Putting forward some effort? scum hunting? defending himself? Where do you see any of this happening?

In his ISO I see him A) attack vezo for rolefishing B) unvote and spend many posts discussing whether people should be voting Masons (I agree that people shouldn't) C) attacks lurkers. He has stated that his supisions are lurkers + me.

@askbob Is there any reason that you think that the majority of scum are lurking?

Dr. Robotnik

: He's been lurking pretty badly. Started off by failing to explain which post of mine was suspicious. He's been parroting a bit in the game as well. Very little scum hunting has been put forth by him and most of his posts were talking about Masons. I'm getting a scummy read from him, he's currently my top suspect.

I agree with his statements about robotnik. But wait, he finds robo suspicious for mainly talking about Masons... Who else has been mainly talking about Masons? askbob!! And he thought askbob was slightly pro-town.

@SSBF Why do you find a difference in robo's talking about Masons and askbob's talking about Masons?

Lowell

: His posts hasn't been too long, but he has put up some substance in the game. He has original thoughts on the game. However, two things I don't like about him is his low activity level and that he contradicted himself once, saying that he didn't like my bandwagon at the time, but in the exact same post, he said that no matter how hard I try, I will still get lynched. I have a null read on him.

substance? original thoughts? Were you reading the same Lowell I was? I admit, there are some, but very little. Not enough to mention.

Midnight's Sorrow

: Started out completely useless, which is why I originally had a case on him. However, he hasn't really redeemed himself in my eyes. Some of his posts are too short and could have been added into another post, which almost gives me the feeling that he's active lurking. He's only made a few decent posts that actually really contribute to something. I'm getting a fairly scummy read on him.

Slightly agree. On the one hand, he could easily be a Townie that is in over his head in this game. On the other hand, it appears that he has been buddying me pretty relentlessly. I'm not sure if he is trying to prevent me from RBing him or what...

nhammen

: The current bandwagon so far. Currently not liking him. His case on folist13 in my opinion, sucks. Part of ISO: 5 were totally useless, specifically the latter part without the quotes. His defense his not been very good and he has been relatively demanding, as shown where he asked Chronopie and askbob to list out six suspects, something that is not easily accomplished, even in a large game like this. His case on Parama isn't that good either. And finally, his claim is ridiculous, as scums can be role-blockers as well. Pretty scummy read if you ask me.

I ask for 6 suspects because I want any. 6 is an arbitrary number. If I only asked for suspects, I'd probably get one, if I'm lucky. So I'm asking for as many as they can give. Sorry if that is too demanding. Also, noted that askbob, who you defended above, is one of the players that I asked for 6 suspects on.

And I don't have a case on Parama. I have a defense against Parama's attacks, but I think the attacks are stupid, not scummy.

Parama

: Initially my top suspect for having an awful case on me (Read my case on him to see why I was very suspicious of him), he has however, somewhat redeemed himself. Ever since he stopped tunneling me, he started to actually scum hunt, made a very solid case against nhammen and a few other people, and his defense has improved. I'm still slightly suspicious of him, but if he keeps improving, he'll be off my suspect list.

Solid case? Really? He's tunneling like mad, and has no case whatsoever. His logic is awful. But badlogic is not a scumtell and he tunnels as Town. (note: I have not checked if he also tunnels as scum).

Pomegranate

: I like her so far. Her activity level has been acceptable in this game. She has been doing some form of scum hunting in the game. I don't have much of a read on her right now, but I'll give her a slight pro-town read.

Activity level acceptable!? Are you crazy? Most of her posts have been "catching up" posts. WHy is this considered acceptable?

Sevis

: Nice to see him posting some substances in the game. I disagree with people on Sevis being scummy, he has been putting forth some effort into the game and did some scum hunting. I have a neutral-town read from him, because despite daily posting, I want to see more of him.

In multiscum, scumhunting does not equal Town. And his scumhunting looks off. I can still see a neutral-ish lean though.

[nhammen]

Now obligatory mod gaming from me. Lowell is scum. If anyone knows how I deduced this gets 6 vez points.

How could you deduce anything about Lowell. He's superlurk.

Then when Parama made his big post, I went and read nhammen's post and foilist13's posts that nhammen called rolefishing. The questions foilist13 was asking could really only satisfactorily be answered by telling more about vezo's role. It really seems like Parama was deliberately ignoring that. If Parama is ignoring some things to push his case then I figure he might be ignoring others as well.

SC mentioned something really smart about how nhamman was calling out the rolefishing but not saying the person was scum. That kind of thing bugs me but it bugs me on the same level as seeing Parama call out one of Chronopie's posts as a scumslip, vote him, and then go back to nhammen justifying it with "lol he's using meta." If I see a genuine scumslip, I'm really not inclined to move my vote away so easily so seeing Parama change back to nhammen for seemingly much flimsier reasoning is worrisome. Looks more like wagon testing than scum hunting to me. SC may be onto something, but Parama's activity just makes the nhammen wagon feel dirty to me.

Interesting case on Parama... I don't know though. Bad logic =/= scum.

Oh. Well, actually, the case on Robotnik really wan't anything. The first two players on the wagon didn't really make a case at all. And yet several players jumped on stating they thought the wagon was good. That's what was suspicious. The reason I thought Robotnik was scummy was because of his response. Not the (nonexistent) case.

Makes sense...

First of all, calm down, you hardly hold any authority over me here, there are many things I don't mind doing to prove my innocence, posting links for private forums on a forum as big as this just to show I like playing defensively is not in the list.

Well nuts. I tried... I still consider you to be slightly scummy...

Bonus!
I will shamelessly jump onto the largest wagon formed on anyone (except maybe Unsight) on the Chronopie wagon (mostly because those are the people I don't trust individually, not so much because they're on the wagon).

Hey cool! So if I voted for Chrono, you'd shamelessly jump on me! You know threatening anybody on a specific wagon makes it look like you are protecting said player...

And... sometimes I prefer to gather my thoughts before posting. Specifically, when it's 1:30 in the morning.

In other news, you're on the same scumteam as chronopie. Either that or you've suffered a stroke within the last 24 hours. I guess you're hoping your ranknames will allow you to get away with this ridiculous behaviour.

Totally understand about 1:30 in the morning. That's when I finally decide to post after procrastinating all day (for example, right now). Agree on vi/chrono. BTW what are ranknames?

Here's a quick question for you guys.

Why is there an assumption that the major contributors are less scummy then those that don't? I'm curious to know what that has anything to do with being scummy besides just needing to post more?

It is hard to get a read on people that post less. So scum might try to hide by posting with little to no content.



foilist's defense of me and attack on Parama = <3
Better wording than any I used.

HOLY CRAP PAGES! I'll try to catch up as soon as possible.

How's that coming? Did you see I had asked you a question? Well here is another:
@pman Give me a list of the 6 people you find scummiest.

Look at it this way, it will give you a goal during your reread.

Wait, so foilist, you're saying nhammen's accusations against you are completely valid?

unvote, vote: foilist13

Straight from the horse's mouth, foilist admits to being scum.

Ummm...

My case was:
A) foilist was rolefishing
B) this rolefishing is scummy
A + B = foilist is scummy.

You said that my case A was invalid. foilist disagrees. He says my case B is invalid. He convinced me of this fact.

And Parama reaches for yet another case!! Go Parama![/sarcasm]

My explanation of why lowell is scum.

The mod didn't want to start the game early because lowell hasn't confirmed via PM. He then says that after lowell confirmed wants to give more time to the people with night talk abilities. He is not a mason or a monk therefore he must be scum.

Unvote nhammen
Vote Lowell

You are pulling out the last to confirm scumtell? Seriously?

Parama's case on foilist is solid. Foilist actualy says "I was blatant rolefishing" so... yeah. As far as I can tell, Foilist was trying so hard to paint parama scum that he actually began attacking himself. It's reaching to the point of hilarity. Also, he seems confused as to whether he's trying to call nhammen scum or town.

Parama has not had a solid case at all this game. I would be surprised if Parama would know what a solid case was if it was dropped into his lap.

@Parama How well did your tunneling strategy work in the last game you used it as Town?

I've only lightly skimmed everything Parama has said since he started tunneling on SSBF.

I wish I had been doing this...

You have until your next post to vote me or die a horrible death.

And you say you aren't a VI...

[nhammen]

Tomorrow, I finish my reread, and do a side by side ISO of askbob and SSBF.

[nhammen]

Unvote, Vote: Foilist

Ummm... why do you keep following Parama? First SSBF, then me, then foilist. All of your votes have been following Parama.

Pman5595 hasn't posted much substance and has been less active then you, but your activity level has also been terrible and you haven't really posted much substance either. Plus, you've parroted a bit, which made you more suspicious in my eyes then pman5595.

Also, I am not attempting to form a bandwagon on you. I find you genuiously suspicious enough to warrant a vote, but I didn't say "VOTE FOR Dr. Robotnik! PEOPLE!".

Hmm. Well, I've had people parrot me in regards to the nhammen bandwagon, so I guess that works for you...and yeah, I've posted more then he has, which does make me more suspicious because I'm somehow lurking more...

And when you vote for people, its because you consider them dangerous enough to be hung. No, you may not have actively campaigned to kill me, but one other person immediate followed you in voting for me.

Actually, he clearly says that pman is lurking more than you... and then votes you for parroting. I don't remember if you have parroted anybody or not, so I'd like him to provide examples of this.

@SSBF could you provide examples of where robotnik has parroted?

According to nhammen:

Why are you worried about me using meta? This triggered some major scumvibes, so I went to his wiki page and saw Mafia 109. Which showed me that:
Parama does have a meta of tunneling.
Hard.
On Town players.
He's worse than charter...

This matches with Parama's play so far, so despite the fact that I don't like it, Chronopie still comes up as the scummier player.

He could still be playing to his Town meta.

Also, could someone check out his play in Mafia 109 and see if you agree with my read of his meta?

If someone wants to vote Timeater or The Goat or Dry-fit or etc. I would certainly provide them with company.

I would like Time and Goat to post more content. I may consider a pressure vote on one of them...

Second bolded: Kind of a flimsy caricature of my reason but it's not like you're reading.

About what nhammen has said since SerialClergyman posted - He's still not going anywhere. Of all the people he could have voted for more information, he chose pman, who is least likely to gain a wagon (or directly give information).

Lots of attempts at reads, none of which are particularly committal. It's scumhunting at its most ineffective.

This is the only reason I can find for your second voting of nhammen. I assumed any previous reasons were invalid as you declared him town in your previous unvoting of him.

"Valid" and "invalid" are words that get thrown around a lot but nobody knows what they mean. >.>
Anyway, the vote on pman makes sense as a scumaneuver when combined with the bolded - it read like a flimsy attempt to look like he was scumhunting and culminated with a very uncontroversial and useless vote on a megalurker who earned an avatar for being vig bait. Really?

I saw a player who had both lurking and scummy behavior. He needs to be gone. Notice also, that pman said he would explain his vote if anybody asked. I asked. He did not explain.

Dr. Robotnik's hopping has been noted before. He seems to be mostly targeting VIs. His list of suspects, other than SSBF and daniel, includes LMP -- who, although he certainly isn't a VI, is new. Doesn't look all too good.

Vote: Dr. Robotnik

, at least until I can finish re-reading.

So you think Dr. Robotnik is scummy because he is only targeting VI-ish players? What about a player who only votes easy targets and makes strange posts that look like they are saying something without actually saying anything? I think those are more worthy of votes.

Unvote
Vote: Sevis

I agree that sevis' behavior looks bad. I'm still not sure whether he is scum or VI. Sometimes it looks one way, and sometimes it looks the other.

...it's annoying isn't it? :/

It's like trying to talk to a brick wall >:P

Yes... yes it is...

Parama: I'm a brick wall on your side.

You really like buddying up to Parama don't you?

[nhammen]

@nhammen: Why do you expect people to give out a top six suspect list? Some people may not be able to even find that many.

I answered this, but in a post that comes after this one. In case you missed it:

I ask for 6 suspects because I want any. 6 is an arbitrary number. If I only asked for suspects, I'd probably get one, if I'm lucky. So I'm asking for as many as they can give. Sorry if that is too demanding.

[nhammen]

^ yeah, I hadn't seen that at the time...

[nhammen]

Umm, that post was refferring to Goat... stupid simulpost.

[nhammen]

Doc Robot is back, and completely missed the giant nhammen bandwagon. While I feel he certainly has been acting suspicious, the fact that the wagon formed so fast, with some just hopping on with no explanations is also worrysome.

Did you just parrot me on the matter? You basically said what I said earlier in my latest decent-size post of today.

Oh... This is where you accuse robo of parroting... SSBF, you think a bit too much of yourself...

[nhammen]

I found suspicions of an askbob/SSBF partnership here. So I side-by-side ISOed askbob and SSBF. bob coaches SSBF a few times, and SSBF defends bob multiple times. But there were too many posts in which they disagreed about minor things, like who is and isn't lurking, so I'm not sure... It wasn't distancing, because they were never suspicious of each other for it. They just... disagreed. But SSBF's defenses of askbob still looks suspicious. hmmm...

[nhammen]

@nhammen: You ask people to list out six suspects. Now, list your six suspects as well and explain why you find them suspicious.

I gave a list of seven quite some time ago. One of them has been removed since then though.

So, who is scummy on the wagon?

Parama

Chrono
pman
sevis

Who is scummy off the wagon?
SGRaaize
robotnik
askbob

I removed Parama because his action match his Town meta. This drove him back to a null read.
I agree with most of your case on robotnik that was presented in your PBPA, although I don't rate him quite as scummy as you did.
I have already provided explanation for the other 5, located here. Note: some players may have made rebuttals to these statements. Some players may have also committed more scumtells since that post of mine. But my scumlist has stayed the same. I will collect any links to updated information on these cases, if I find any, shortly.
And I will give you a bonus seventh scummy player in Lowell, who has lurked and

refused to answer my question!

In fact, I may put Lowell in my top 6 in place of robotnik.

Note: Another large part of the reason that these people are my suspects is that I have 9 Town reads, including the Masons and LMP. Process of elimination makes it much easier to decide who among the leftovers is scum. By the way, I have no reads at all, Town or Scum, on some of the lurkers, particularly Goat and Timeater. This is why I'd like them to post more. So that I can decide if they need to be added to the lists.

Want quotes on where he scum hunt and defend himself? Here they are:

Scum hunting

:

@daniel: Your last post looked really bad. Why did you made a bigger size and bold? And you know how I got that information.

My top two suspicions are pman and nahmenn. Nahmen doesn't say a whole lot of anything until he's attacked then suddenly its pages upon pages. That doesn't add up for me. Also a roleblocker role while possible IMO is rather unlikely and has a higher likelihood of hurting the town. Also I agree with paranama above. Nahmen goes from posting hardly anything to posting books, to posting nothing. That seems like scum to me. While I wanted to prolong the day phase with voting pman and getting him to speak up, I'm comfortable after reading his posting amount to suspect that he's mafia. I mean posting a lot when you're attacked, posting nothing when suspicion dies down. Unvote pmann, Vote Nhammen

With that said i may just be more suspicious of him because pman has had like 3 posts. One of them hopping on the nahmen bandwagon without any discussion and a post back 4 pages saying he was "going to catch up" I think he's lurking.

I'm was voting pmann in an attempt to prolong the day phase so that pman and some other silent people speak up.

The first one is barely scumhunting. The second one occurred after your PBPA, so that one is not an instance of the scum hunting that you mentioned in the PBPA.

Defends himself

:

wait wtf? He wasn't saying he could if he wanted to? I he was rolefishing. I don't know how you can't get that from what he said.

How have I done no scumhunting? I just went through the entire thread and counted posts and found some lurkers.

I also don't really buy that there is a townie roleblocker.

So my suspicions are the lurker list above combined with you. Particularly pman as I said above, he's had like 3 posts, 1 of them randomly jumping on the wagon with no analysis.

Since i want this day phase to last longer and get pman to slip up: Unvote Vote pman

First one is a fail defense, because vezo's quote was "You can claim if you want". Second one is after I said he was not scum hunting. His answer is, yes I am, I just found tons of lurkers! Notice: lurker hunting =/= scum hunting. I asked him after this "defense" of his, why he thought most of the scum were lurking. His response: well, he hasn't responded yet. And his attack on pman is just a parrot of my attack on pman, since you love using that as a scumtell. Note: I don't think that is as much of a scumtell as you claim it is.

I agree with his statements about robotnik. But wait, he finds robo suspicious for mainly talking about Masons... Who else has been mainly talking about Masons? askbob!! And he thought askbob was slightly pro-town.

@SSBF Why do you find a difference in robo's talking about Masons and askbob's talking about Masons?

Dr. Robotnik has made very few successful contributations to the game overall and it seems like he's not even trying. His "I can only go on the computer once a day" excuse sucks because he's post more then once a day. askbob is at least trying to contribute to the game in some manner.

Your continued defense of askbob astounds me... I don't know what to think of you. That niggling feeling that you are scum with bob keeps showing up in the back of my head. But I also have a Town read on you. These two reads do not mix.

substance? original thoughts? Were you reading the same Lowell I was? I admit, there are some, but very little. Not enough to mention.

Substance and original thoughts in order:

2) Super townpoints for midnight. NO way scum follows 181 with the hilariously-honest 183.

^^^ that was the longest post to add nothing ever.

unvote, vote robotnik. Why is it that people bandwagon early, but by page 10 or so everyone loses their nerve?

I agree with your assessment of 319, and robo's latest is no better. Moreover, I'd dispute that a 6-person wagon is a big deal. That's not even halfway there, so if you're suggesting this will become a convenient "quicklynch" then I doubt it. If he gets lynched he'll deserve it.

I find SCs explanation satisfactory, and consider him pro-town (I also see a little bit of SC-buddying from robo in his last post, but I think that's trying to latch onto a confident player rather than them both being scum).

Not once have I remembered anyone else saying any of those things before Lowell said them.

Fair enough... I guess I wasn't reading Lowell as well as I thought... Maybe I'm annoyed that he hasn't added any useful content

recently

. That last one you mentioned was 6 days ago...

In multiscum, scumhunting does not equal Town. And his scumhunting looks off. I can still see a neutral-ish lean though.

Actually, scum hunting when done well is always pro-town, regardless of circumstances. How is this a exception to the rules in multi-scums games?

In multi-scum, both scumgroups will try to scumhunt to find the other group. At this early a point in the game, it is difficult to tell the difference between selective scumhunting (hunting for only a specific group) and full scumhunting (hunting for any group). Thus, all players wil be scumhunting.

Faraday replaces daniel94581.

Yaaaay! We get rid of a VI... Hello Faraday.

[nhammen]

And, now: he has refused to defend himself against many of the attacks. He jumps on wagons (particularly mine) too quickly. He follows Parama everywhere. And he posts often, but his posts tend to contain no content. And of course the whole rolefishing thing...

vote Chrono

L-2: Claim Time!

[nhammen]

Last post you said you find me town
You accuse Chrono of following me, implying I'm scum with Chrono.

Lolololol.

You know there are quite a few reasons scum would want to follow a player:
The scum is following a Town player so that he can say, but this Town player was doing it too. Or say, it wasn't my idea.
The scum is following a Town player to incriminate this player if the scum ever flips.
The scum is following a player so that they will blend in with others that follow this player.
The scum is following a scumbuddy.

It is interesting that you only considered the last one of those. Why?

@parama- not that nhammen isn't scum and all, but generally speaking the player doing the following is scum, but the player being followed not necessarily so.

Agree, but why haven't you answered my question yet?

Unsight's been backgroundish.

Quite so...

Are you kidding me? I don't know what mafia games you've played before, but the ones I played, scum lurked. Rarely did townies post less than scum. And are you shitting me? I'm the FIRST ONE who called out pman. I don't know where you ever had a suspicion of him before me? Might wanna read back on that. I read every freakin page and tallied up the posts. I really doubt you called out pman before me. Why do I think most scum lurk? Simple because its easier for them to post 6 posts like pman and say nothing. You can't even get an accurate read on a player if they don't post. I mean seriously pressure the bastards into playing then you can make them squirm and get a read. pman has done nothing. Why on earth would a townie lurk? Can you give me an answer to that? I mean seriously it'd be different if he was just busy and when he did post he posted analysis and it was just infrequent. But this guy posts "hold on i'm catching up" then never posts again? Like seriously?? At least contribute minimally or be replaced. It looks to me like pman is posting the bare minimum to not be prodded. I don't know how everyone else is fine with that. Where I played scum lurked. It wasn't a all scum = lurkers. But the majority of scum lurked.

A) experience on this site tells me that Town lurks just as much as scum. Yes, scum has motivation to do it. And yes, a player that is lurking is more likely to be scum that if they weren't lurking. But not by much. And I have never seen the entirety of a scumteam lurk.
B) I called out pman as a lurker on Fri May 21, 2010 1:27 pm
You called out pman as a lurker on Fri May 21, 2010 10:58 pm
Only 9 hours after I did...
C) I agree that pman is scummy. You don't need to argue with me there.
D) I was the only non-lurker you accused in that post. So you were saying that one scumteam consisted entirely of lurkers.

No selfhammering if you're town. Seeing who is prepared to hammer and who isn't prepared to hammer is useful information.

Exactly.



And now we get to chrono's wagon "analysis"... Mpstly just information, but there are a few opinions expressed. If he's scum, I'm pretty much ignoring this for WIFOM reasons.

How could Unsight knew he was a werewolf and not a mafioso?

That has to do with Unsight's role though... How would this be any reflection on chrono? If Unsight is ww, then its WIFOM. If Unsight is Mafia, then it means Unsight knows that they aren't the same alignment. If Unsight is Town, then it's baseless.

[nhammen]

Oh and I'd like to tell you something. You just disrespected the mod of this game by giving up via self-hammer. If you self-hammer to kill yourself, you are a quitter. I suggest reading over your posts in this game in the future and I hope you facepalm.

Wrong. If he is scum, that was the correct play. It prevents the Town from gaining more information from interactions.

If he is Town,

then

it was incorrect. But I still don't see how it "disrespects the mod". And that is all I will say about that here. Maybe you should have read through the thread in MD... I thought you posted in it.[/Theory]

[nhammen]

I roleblocked SGR.

I don't think there is any chance of NK WIFOM, but there is something else I am worried about.

More comments after I catch up on ... 3 pages in the past 12 hours? Which will happen after the movie I'm watching ends...

In the meantime:

vote SGR

[nhammen]

Alright, guys, I know I'm sounding very scummy here, but I wanna get replaced, exams are starting and I can't bother to be ISOing on a Mafia game all the time

Sorry, but I will only start playing Mafia games again when holidays start

Really? Maybe you want to replace out because you used a kill that didn't go through? But asking someone to replace into a role that was roleblocked on the Night that there was a missing kill is really mean. You wont be that mean will you?

Haha, only one kill? From the flavor it sounds like the werewolf kill, too. Hmm... who would want to kill Vi? I think I need to ISO him.
inb4NKWIFOM

Yes, it does seem that the Mafia kill didn't happen. But that's just stating the obvious. And you are the first person to mention NK WIFOM... Hmmm...

I had a really strong town read from Vi, as did most other people. This is something worth looking into. We need to look at people who conflicted with him and who thought Vi was scummy.

I was thinking that he was killed because almost nobody saw him as scummy, and he was producing content and good reads. Why would looking at who thought he was scummy help?

We must find out who the mafia targeted. I think the werewolfs killed Vi because they thought it was from an opposing faction.

Really? That's why you think they targeted Vi? Wow... I saw his kill and immediately assumed that they were aiming for Town...

As for who the Mafia targeted? Why does it matter? I see 4 possibilities for why their kill would not have occurred.
A) I roleblocked the Mafia Kill. Who it targeted doesn't matter. We know SGR is scum
B) NK WIFOM as Parama brought up. I find this highly unlikely.
C) They targeted an NK-Immune player. These types of roles don't occur very often. And the chances of just happening to hit someone with this role are small. So, I also find this unlikely.
D) A Doc protected their target. Unfortunately, this is likely, as there were claimed PRs. If D is the case, I am guessing the Mafia either targeted me or you, and a Doc correctly protected.
In the first two, the target does not matter. In the last two, we find out the target when someone claims. Why do we need to find the target now?

You are pretty much the most active-lurkery player I have ever seen.

I wouldn't say you've posted the least content, but I would say you've posted the most posts with none, and the most posts masquerading as content.

*cough* askbob *cough*

Is it possible for you to defend in a way that isn't just undermining your attacker?

Ummm? Isn't that the whole point of a defense? I don't understand this. At all.

Because Vi, while adamant about him being scum, switched votes on a dime. It was hard to discern if he was being serious, or throwing everyone through a loop. That he was revealed town suggests to me otherwise, and thus I look at the Vi/Sevis tango in a more harsher light.

I refuse to throw away a night kill as possible evidence because of WIFOM tendencies. There is some truth in its silver linings, and I think we should look at this in a more, open, approach then what is being made today. I mean, GOD! we have some days to kill. We don't need to jump on every little thing and make big deals out of it. I say look at other avenues of scumminess, instead of focusing on one? I don;t think it would hurt. In fact, it would probably be far more beneficial right?

I have learned the hard way that a dead Townie's opinions have a tendency to be right. And sevis was already on my shortlist.

@Leafsnail 928 Attacking all of the players that vote him? Where has he been doing that? The entire problem with midnight is that he hasn't attacked ANYONE. He just keeps attacking the cases, and not the players. Including when the case is against him. When he finally presents a case on sevis, it isn't even his case; it's Vi's case. But I don't see any attacks on players that are attacking him, except a brief mention of Vi's case against you and now his latest post. You really like to accuse players of OMGUS don't you?

hmm about half the game are looking pretty town to me, i'd put a bullet in the other half in pretty much any order if I could though.

You have no idea how much I agree with you. Deciding who to roleblock was the most difficult decision I have had in the time I have been on this site, because there are so many players that have behaved scummy. askbob, SGR, and sevis are just awful. pman, robotnik, Lowell, Goat, and Timeater are superlurkers. midnight had been buddying me from the moment I made my claim (trying not to be RBed?), and Unsight had been hiding in the background, which is not the playstyle I saw in NY 110.

need to re-read too as there;s people not even registering on my radar either way, e.g. askbob and dr robotnik.

askbob is very scummy and was my top suspect up until the missing kill this morning. The only reason I did not RB askbob is because I figured that after the way I attacked him yesterday, no scum in their right mind would have askbob send in their kill.

the midnight sorrow bandwagon is interesting btw. the intiial reasons were b/c he didn't do fuck all? same could be applied to the guy people are currently switching too. so yeah.

That is the defense he has been using too. I agree with this actually. The way Leaf has been pushing this and not pushing others with similar behavior is somewhat scummy. And here I had a town v. town vibe from leaf v. foilist yesterday...

On the other hand, he's been trying to look helpful while not doing anything (scumtell at any level of experience)

And you think SGR hasn't? What about askbob?

has been deflecting, undermining attackers and all sorts of other horrible stuff. In short, scum.

undermining attackers isn't scummy. In fact, it can be very pro-Town. As long as you scumhunt as well... But I find undermining attackers by itself to be more of a newbtell than a scumtell. Especially considering that you have done this in the past: especially your ISO 8, where you undermine someone's case by calling it reaching. And yet, when Midnight does the exact same thing you have done, you call it scummy.

@Leafsnail At one point you stated you were suspicious of askbob. Are you still suspicious of him? If so, why are you more suspicious of midnight than askbob? At one point you stated you were suspicious of sevis. Are you still suspicious of him? If so, why are you more suspicious of midnight than sevis? What is your opinion of SGR? If a player uses OMGUS, is this a scumtell? Why?

[nhammen]

The whole point of defending is to show that you didn't do the things you are accused of, not to make weak accusations against your attacker to get them to go away. Simply making accusations against anyone who votes you is not a townie thing to do at all.

What weak accusations to make them go away? Where did this come from? I said that undermining your attacker is the whole point of defense. And your response says, no, it is saying you didn't do what you are accused of. Which... wait for it...

undermines the attacker

.

And you think SGR hasn't? What about askbob?

Deflection is noted. And I don't see why this is a defence - it's not like there's only one scum left.

Not deflection. Not a defense. This is independent of whether midnight is scum. Many players believe that attacking one player for something, but not attacking others for the same thing is scummy. Heck! Parama used that as his case against me. I am trying to find out how sincerely you are pushing this, so that I can tell if it is scummy. Attempt to discredit this evidence is noted.

It's not the exact same thing, firstly. I felt Parama was reaching for something so early in the game, wheras Midnight's Sorrow's "defence" seems to be built on insulting me/ saying I'm attacking me too hard/ calling me scum/ calling me a VI/ saying that active lurking and bandwagonning aren't scumtells/ deflection (pick a random one from this list).

Yeah. When people are attacked, and their initial defense is ignored, they try to come up with another. I bet there is even a Psychological term for this. I highly doubt you can accurately use any of this to determine whether or not he is scum.

@Leafsnail At one point you stated you were suspicious of askbob. Are you still suspicious of him?

Now that you call my attention to it, yes, definately. He's bandwagonning like nobody's business (switching to Midnight's Sorrow

very

quickly, and then jumping to SGR even though nhammen's roleblock is far from conclusive).

At one point you stated you were suspicious of sevis. Are you still suspicious of him?

Because he hasn't posted once since I expressed suspicion of him. So yeah, I'm still just as suspicious as I was when I first wrote so.

The reason I asked these questions is because you

completely

dropped these cases to push the case on midnight. You can attack more than one player at a time. So I was wondering what the reason was for dropping these cases.

What is your opinion of SGR?

He hasn't really caught my attention before, to be honest. Actually, I'm kinda curious as to why you blocked him, considering the last thing you said about him before the night was

Well nuts. I tried... I still consider you to be slightly scummy...

Well, I had my top 6 after the Day 1 lynch:

nhammen's Day 1 Top 7

askbob
pman

Chrono

SGR
sevis
robotnik
Lowell

First off, I ISOed every single player on this list (as well as Unsight and midnight, who were additional possible targets), because with how many scummy players there are in this game, choosing one was going to be HARD. I figured that with my attacks on askbob, no scum would be stupid enough to have him send in the kill. Yes, that's right: I was trying to WIFOM the scum. When ISOing sevis overnight, his explanation of his vote for me convinced me not to RB him over night (it looked too uninformed). So I was left with SGR and three players lurking even worse than he is. I settled on the player out of these that I could get a read on. So far I haven't found too many players that are extravagantly scummy (only askbob really), but there are about 10 that are all slightly scummy.

If a player uses OMGUS, is this a scumtell? Why?

Yes and no.

Voting someone who votes you for bad reasons isn't necessarily a scummy thing to do. Nor is properly attacking someone who voted you in the past.

On the other hand, persistently focusing only on those who attack you, and then ignoring them after they leave you is very scummy.

Well, you like to accuse players of OMGUS, but I haven't seen anybody do the version of OMGUS that you call scummy.

I don't understand why people think the roleblock means nothing, he's very likely scum WITHOUT the block and this makes it more likely.

PRECISELY!

@MS: No, I definitely still find Sevis scummy. I just find your immediate attempt to pin the NK on him plus your D1 play scummier.

My biggest problem with the midnight wagon is that everyone dropped all of their previous cases to jump on it. This boggles my mind.

Never mind he's ignored the chances of any other power role causing any sort of no kill via protects or blocks (including the chance he himself was targetted but was doc protected or the like.) Why ignore that?

I did what!? Have you even read my posts? I specifically mentioned the possibility of a doc in my previous post... which was on the same page as this post of yours that I am quoting.

He knows it's simply not true. Same deal with the possibility Vi was double targetted.

Someone else already asked this question, and the mod verified that Vi was only killed by the Werewolves. Sorry about busting your theory...

IMO, if nhammen is lying, he's guaranteed dead tomorrow.

Hello! Your attempt to push through multiple lynches is noted. Hmmm... at least we can guess that SGR is not in the same faction as robo... probably...

So, I find Midnight wagon has no real evidence. Timeater should by policy lynched/killed, and SGR is the only real semi-reasonable thing we have to vote on.

Agree with all of this, except for there also being a good case against askbob.

Okay, defindently

FoS: askbob

. He has produced little substance ToDay and there's absolutely no reason why not. He followed a bandwagon with not really that much backing and voting SGRaaize even thought we don't know if nhammen is right or now. Nhammen was also right about most of askbob's posts containing talking about masons. There's also no excuse for not contributing much ToDay either, he's been active in another game. His reasoning for voting Midnight's Sorrow didn't really make much sense either, while others at least had legitimate reasons for suspecting Midnight's Sorrow. Might as well read askbob's ISO.

While I am glad you saw the value of the askbob case, I am very surprised by this change of your view on him.

[nhammen]

You say your a RB right nhammen? Is that all you can do? Like, do you protect as well as rb. If that's the case, maybe SGR was the one that was targeted and you saved him?

I just roleblock. Am not a Jailkeeper. And I don't like the vig speculation without any evidence of a vig.

I just finished a game as scum where we claimed roleblocker in order to get soemone lynched and got Midnight's Sorrow mislynched on anothern ight

I don't plan on falling for my own scumtactics. The SGR wagon is filled with people who want an easy vote. A claimed block from someone suspicious enough to be forced to claim (and not be NKed) is not enough.

nhammen is scum and is either a roleblocker or has a roleblocker on his team. Almost certainly.

When people were talking about NK WIFOM, I never thought of this... OK. If I was a member of a scumteam, why would I choose SGR, of all people, to frame. There are so many better options than this. Like, say, you. SGR is already playing completely anti-Town. Is this the person that you think would be chosen for this? Seriously?

Also, could you provide a link to this game? You say it had midnight in it and is completed. Was he Town? If so, there is something I want to see.

Scumlist:

SGR
pman (i mean come on like one post a day, he's just posting to not be prodded)
nhammen (had a scummy feel on him yesterday due to his posting a ton whenever anyone calls him out most of which is just quotes)
Midnight's Sorrow (just an overly emotional defense that seemed weak to me)

What happened to the lurkers that you considered so scummy yesterday? You were so proud of that list, and now there is only one person remaining from it.

I agree that askbob is totally exploding all over the place. It's like he forgot to act townie and just wants to lynch someone.

Yes. Yes it looks just like that.

Hello chaps!

Why isn't SGR lynched yet?

I don't like quicklynches. I don't like players that want quicklynches. I REALLY don't like players that lurk and then pop in the thread to say that they want quicklynches.

FOS: Timeater

@SSBF 1061: Hell yeah!

Socrates replaces SGRaaize.

OK... Socrates is an awesome player. But SGR was soooo scummy. And I blocked him... But Socrates is an awesome player. And asking him to answer for his predecessor's failings is a bit off. And Socrates is... well you get the picture. I'll wait for his first post, and see if it satisfies me...

@Leaf 1065: OK, cool. You have defended yourself well.

Why did you roleblock SGR?

SGR was in my scumlist for lurking, over-defensiveness, fence-sitting, and posting much fluff. I selected him iover the other members of my scumlist for the reasnos I gave here:

Well, I had my top 6 after the Day 1 lynch:

nhammen's Day 1 Top 7

askbob
pman

Chrono

SGR
sevis
robotnik
Lowell

First off, I ISOed every single player on this list (as well as Unsight and midnight, who were additional possible targets), because with how many scummy players there are in this game, choosing one was going to be HARD. I figured that with my attacks on askbob, no scum would be stupid enough to have him send in the kill. Yes, that's right: I was trying to WIFOM the scum. When ISOing sevis overnight, his explanation of his vote for me convinced me not to RB him over night (it looked too uninformed). So I was left with SGR and three players lurking even worse than he is. I settled on the player out of these that I could get a read on.

What is the "something else"?

Here:

I see 4 possibilities for why their kill would not have occurred.
A) I roleblocked the Mafia Kill. Who it targeted doesn't matter. We know SGR is scum
B) NK WIFOM as Parama brought up. I find this highly unlikely.
C) They targeted an NK-Immune player. These types of roles don't occur very often. And the chances of just happening to hit someone with this role are small. So, I also find this unlikely.
D) A Doc protected their target. Unfortunately, this is likely, as there were claimed PRs. If D is the case, I am guessing the Mafia either targeted me or you, and a Doc correctly protected.

There were two important claimed PRs at the end of D1: vezo is claimed confirmed Town by other players. And there is me: claimed RB. Either me or vezo make very good Doc protects. The likelihood that either me or vezo was targeted for a protect is very high. So the likelihood that a Doc prevented a kill rather than my RB is rather high. Meaning I can't be too sure about SGR/you... The RB combined with his scumminess gave me a lot. But you come out strong; asking good questions. Now I don't know. I knew this was gonna happen as soon as I saw that you were replacing in...

shoot! Shoot! SHOOT!

unvote

Note: Socrates, I still found your predecessor's play awful. And my RB was on you the night of a missing Mafia kill. But I can't ask you to answer for your predecessor. So I will unvote for the time being. But I still have my eye on you. And if mass claim rolls around, and there is no Doc, you are DEAD. OK? But I hope that the Werewolves think you are Mafia, and are a strong player. And they can't allow that combination to live.

"All of these reasons have already been explained before, making him a great parrot to be around. No original reasons makes everything awesome. "

WTF are you talking about. IM THE FIRST ONE who noticed pman lurking and was THE FIRST ONE to point it out. If anything you're parroting me.

Did you notice the "nice catch on pman5595"

THAT WAS ME.

Holy crap you are retarded. How is calling out pman parroting at all? I'm the first one that went back and READ EVERY POST and tallied them up to catch the lurkers.

Oh GOD! Not this again... First off, why did you bring this up again? He only mentioned that you parroted off of me. And now you start spouting this crap. Why do you assume that he is referring to your pman "case".

Secondly, why do you put so much stock into lurker hunting? You repeatedly have acted sooo proud of your lurker hunting, but it DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING!

Finally:

I called out pman as a lurker on Fri May 21, 2010 1:27 pm
You called out pman as a lurker on Fri May 21, 2010 10:58 pm
Only 9 hours after I did...

I have shown how I found pman first ANYWAYS. So even if lurker hunting DID mean something, it still doesn't help you.

dry-fit has posted a lot more and his posts are way more insightful than Pman's who are basically "catching up guys" just to not get booted.

Dr. Robotnik posted hardly anything in the other game I'm in and he was town.

That leaves sevis and pman. I'm not too sure about sevis, I'll have to go back and read his posts. But yeah i was the first one on pman's ass. I still am. I just think nhammen's lead has the highest chance of succeeding in catching scum.

So wait a second. When I asked you for scum suspects yesterday, you said that these 4 lurkers plus me were your suspects. Now you state that 2 of them aren't even suspects. So you lied to me when you gave me your suspect list.

vote askbob

[nhammen]

30 hours without internet... Comcast guys fixed it fast (WOW... I thought i was gonna be a few days). Catching up...

[nhammen]

Try scumhunting

I've already found certain scum, so I won't be doing much of that right now.

UGH! You should NEVER put so much stock into your "reads" that you decide you don't need to look for any more. What if you are wrong? So your incorrect opinion makes you ignore any new information that might convince you correctly. Additionally, there are most likely at least 6 scum in this game. Do you even have that many scum reads? Find more scum please.

Unless I am mistaken, you are talking about Dirty Dirty South mafia. Here's the thing, the person that your team faked a roleblock on to get lynched? One of your scumbuddies! That was an elaborate bus that enabled your team to coast into endgame. Your previous post seemed to indicate that you thought that my player slot was town, so I don't think that is what you are implying here, so I must ask. Am I missing something or did you just get all weasely up in here, SC?

I haven't read that game yet, but from what you said, Serial's accusation makes even less sense than I already thought. I am now very curious what Serial was implying...

I liked Nhammen's whole post. Except these parts. nhammen looks like he's unvoting Socrates because he likes him. Thats really not a reason, and he went from "Kill because I RBed him" to "Don't Kill because I love Socrates!"
Just something odd. I'm keeping my eye on that.

I'm unvoting because he is showing pro-town behavior (as he always does). And because other players have half convinced me that even though I used this RB on his player slot, the chance of a Doc protect is rather high, so I can't be really sure of anything. Not sure enough to lynch based on just role actions and a scummy playstyle.

If there is a cop, he should investigate Serial tonight. (Cop specifically, not Seer. Seer should investigate Nhammen if foilist doesn't flip werewolf, I'm not sure where else if Foilist does flip werewolf. Probably Timeater.)

About a Seer targeting me: I can see that removing the questions about my alignment would be a good idea. It would probably be a good idea for a Seer to target me regardless.

But we're still left with someone claiming to have roleblocked someone else and in the process leaving us with waaaaay fewer NKs than standard in a game this size. Right? I'm not willing to watch the socrates wagon die down. His is the only lynch that makes sense.

Games this size tend to have either 2 or 3 NKs a night. If this game has 3, then a Doc protected 1 and I prevented 1. If this game has 2, then only one of these occurred. So, in my mind 3 kills implies that my RB successfully prevented a kill, making Socrates scum. But 2 kills, a Doc protect is highly likely, considering that D1 ended with a confirmed Town and a claimed Roleblocker.

Someone give me the right to suspect claimed monks and masons and I will look at vezopiraka, Seraphim/animorpherv1, LynchMePls, and daniel/Faraday more.

First off, nobody is stopping you (except for looking at vezo). Personally I am choosing not to look at any of them because there is a lesser chance of them being scum. SO I will wait until we have some flips before looking at them.
Secondly, vezo is confirmed Town. He is the one person you shouldn't be looking at. For him to be scum, either LynchMePls, or BOTH Faraday and ani have to be scum. So, until one of these other possibilities arises, there is NO REASON to look at vezo.

Foilist, post 627 is terrible because you spent an entire page calling Parama scummy/stupid and then you avoid voting him and instead vote for the Mislynch Of The Day(tm), a classic scumtell. You have repeatedly waffled between calling Parama scum and calling him dumb and refuse to take a hard stance on him in any way. Even now you decline to meet him head on and instead try to take him out at the knees and discredit him by calling into question his competence while simultaneously suggesting (but not outright saying) that he is scum. You are not interested in Parama's actual alignment, only in making that yapping dog go away.

I hadn't considered this as scummy. The comment in his 597

You didn't make a good case, and you're a VI by mine.

seems like he is exclusively calling him stupid, not scummy. So his not voting in 627 makes sense.

(For the record, I have experience playing with parama before and he is far from a VI. He has an antagonistic attitude to his posts which make it hard for him to ingratiate himself to others, let alone lead a lynch on another player, but he is a very solid scum hunter.)

He has been a VI in this game though... See his massive tunneling. See his refusal to listen to any arguments that went against his case. See his "I've already caught scum so don't need to scumhunt" comment. Now if you say he usually isn't a VI, what does his play in this game mean about him? Hmmm...

Another interesting thing about you, and this was pretty much the crux of Parama's initial push on you, is that when pressed, you pretty much avoided calling Nhammen scum at all costs, even going so far as to admit to what Nhammen was calling you scum for and then rush to his defense against Parama's case against him, which is an interesting thing for another player to do for another player if they don't have an explicit scum read on the attacker. Yes, defending a town read is an good thing to do, but you explicitly waffle on Nhammen's alignment at the very start of your defense of him (post 597) :

nhammen is throwing his weight around at whatever points he can think of to get himself off the hook. Pro-town behavior? Maybe yes, maybe no.

You are probably scum. You are probably Nhammen's scumbuddy. You should probably be lynched today.

I'd say maybe he is buddying me. But A) I don't see why scum wouldn't just let me hang and B) budding would involve much more of a Town read than a waffling read wouldn't it? I get a pretty strong Town read from foilist in this game.

I really shouldn't be defending him like this, because if it is buddying, this just makes it more effective. But I do have a pretty good Town read on him. So, yeah...

Unsight, I didn't see your questions in the first place.
First: I didn't ISO MS and I don't plan on it.
Second: I didn't ISO SGR and I don't plan on it.
Third: Chrono was on my scumlist, the wagons for the more obvious scum just never picked up.

UGH! Get off of your stupid Anti-Town playstyle and actually DO SOME WORK!

nhammen - this is the game:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... c&&start=0

I will get to reading that shortly.

a) nhammen is a scum roleblocker, or on a team with a scum roleblocker.
b) nhammen's team genuinely blocked your (Socrates) slot - PS this is the answer to nhammen's 'Why would I target SGRAize? Because you were genuinely looking for scum.
c) nhammen feels like if we lynch Socrates slot and find scum, then good times, he'll look great. If not - meh, he can blame any other reason of failed kill.

Ummm... earlier you said:

I think nhammen knows why the kill didn't work because his team, either purposefully or not, failed their kill, and he's taking advantage of the situation.

These two quotes contradict each other about what you believe.

Foilist, your case is just a massive wall of text without explaining why most of the quotes are scummy, and you're using it to hide a simple thing - an OMGUS vote because you're sour that I've caught you and won't let go. Tunneling is the best way to prove scum to everyone else once you yourself have found them, and it's worked beautifully thus far - I mean, look - you and nhammen are obviously buddies

it's worked beautifully thus far - I mean, look - Chrono and nhammen are obviously buddies - oh wait... Yeah, definitely worked beautifully.[/sarcasm]


@vezo, STOP following Parama. This is the WRONG PLAYER to follow. You are just contributing to the VIness of this game.

@LynchMePls 1141: Agree with the majority of this post. Do not agree with this:

While I don't agree about roleblocker being a fairly unlikely role for town to have, I do agree that nhammen was way to aggresive with his vote on SGR. Almost like he was desperate to put the attention anywhere other than on himself. nhammen didn't even consider for a moment that there could be other reasons for one less kill.

My strongest Scum read was askbob. This SGR block put SGR over askbob, even if there were other possibilities. And I DID consider other reasons. See:

I roleblocked SGR.

I don't think there is any chance of NK WIFOM, but there is something else I am worried about.

I see 4 possibilities for why their kill would not have occurred.
A) I roleblocked the Mafia Kill. Who it targeted doesn't matter. We know SGR is scum
B) NK WIFOM as Parama brought up. I find this highly unlikely.
C) They targeted an NK-Immune player. These types of roles don't occur very often. And the chances of just happening to hit someone with this role are small. So, I also find this unlikely.
D) A Doc protected their target. Unfortunately, this is likely, as there were claimed PRs. If D is the case, I am guessing the Mafia either targeted me or you, and a Doc correctly protected.

[nhammen]

@nhammen You said you blocked SGR in 952 and you voted him right then. You didn't admit to other possibilites until 984, and only after others pointed out that there were other explanations for missing NK besides your RB.

When I first voted, I said that I didn't believe the kill did not happen because of NKWIFOM, but I was worried about something else. That something else was the possibility of a Doc protect. I honestly can't remember why I did not just say that... At that point, I had not yet thought of the possibility of an NK-immune player, which is why I didn't mention it.

nhammen - you totally caught me out. It seems when I first raised this I was more thinking you failed your kill and wanted to take advantage of it and more recently I've been thinking maybe you didn't and you have a genuine reason to push your block target. The fact that I'm so happy to switch between both possibilities indicates a bit (!!) of leftover confirmation bias from D1 as well as changing thoughts after you pointed out SGRaise was your target and didn't have to be.

Yeah, I like to think I'm good at catching contradictions... I just usually assume that they are scummy, even when I shouldn't.

*** Can we play the list your top three suspects game? ***

Code: Select all

1. askbob
2. Socrates
3. Sevis

I'm not sure about Socrates though. Without the predecessor's behavior I would assume pretty confidently that the block wasn't what stopped the kill. But it's still there. So I keep going back ad forth on this.

Seriously, why the FUCK did I move to the top of your scumlist just because I said you were scum?

Leafsnail, not every attack against you is OMGUS...

Nachomamma8 will replace pman5595.
Nikanor will replace The Goat.

@nacho, what do you think of your predecessor's behavior?
@Nik, what do you think of your predecessor's behavior?


I ISOed midnight in the game that Serial linked, and while you did attack a few cases, you came under suspicion quickly afterward. So I cannot be sure if this is normal for you.
@midnight, you have been trashing other players' cases. Can you provide a game in which you have been doing this as Town?

[nhammen]

Then when nhammen said he role blocked SGRaaize, Faraday deciding to move his vote to SGRaaize, which is him basically bandwagoning.

WRONG! Faraday was already voting SGR, when I had claimed. If you ISOed him, you should have seen this.

This is one of the reasons I find nhammen scummy. He claims to have RB'd one of the people getting suspicion early in D2 before he announces who he RB'd. Seemed really convenient.

Didn't he have 1 vote on him at the time? I don't think 1 vote makes a wagon. Also, why would I go after a "convenient" target? I have already explained my reason for my choice. If you want to say this is scummy, you have to show why.

[nhammen]

@MS Sevis is likely scum. You are also likely scum on the other team, killing Vi and then leaping at the opportunity to blame it on Sevis. I'm guessing this is the logic you and your scum buddies came up with when selecting Vi, only they were clever enough not to bring it up.

You seriously think NKing Vi incriminates sevis that much? Or that anybody else would think that? Wow...

And you have just misrepped his case. He is NOT blaming the kill on sevis. He is stating that Vi thought sevis was scum, Vi flipped Town, and Vi is a good player, so is probably correct in his statement. I'm not sure if I should follow this, but I just got out of a game in which following this logic would have nabbed all of the scum, so I am actually leaning slightly in that direction.

LMP, you do realize that it REALLY looks like you are defending sevis here? At the same time as distancing from him. That is a really strange occurrence...

I think our best lynch today is nhammen or Socrates. The question is do we trust the role blocker claim or not. Currently I'm in the camp of not trusting the claim, but 1233 concerns me.

Weren't you one of the people that complained that I wasn't paying attention to other possibilities? This doesn't mesh with that complaint...

Are you saying every time I post I sound scummy? I don't ever one time recall you claiming I was scum. If you have a case, I'd love to hear it so I can defend myself. I don't much like being generically lumped in with players you find scummy with no chance to defend myself.

Overdefensive?

Well he claimed roleblocker which if a very common role even for scum. So we trust his claim. If socrates is town we lynch nhammen. If socrates flips mafioso we lynch nhammen. If socrates flips WW then nhammen is probably town or they did a barrel of WIFOM.
In any way we end up killing at least one scum.

So GO GO plan A.

Unvote
Vote sorates

OK, well, first off, you are saying I should get lynched with almost any possible result of Socrates' flip. Second, you are trying to lynch off of a role action that may not even mean anything. Third, you have been following other players to their votes all D2. Have you EVER made a case of your own? Because I can't remember any time that you have, other than the faulty "one of the Masons must be scum" argument. I swear you are the most anti-Town confirmed Town I have ever seen.

sorry guys, I'm back. I apologize for being absent again. I should have craploads more time to devote to this game now that I got modkilled (on an accident) in the KoL game. I really just spent most of my time in that game reading because I got a heavier scumread on it in this. Haven't read through this yet, but I did it in the last game and this worked for catching scum.

unvote vote pman

Ok, well he's been replaced but I couldn't find any posts of nachoman. I'm keeping my vote until he at least posts. and does an analysis. I just read the last two pages, I'm going back further to my last post to start catching up

You going to comment on my most recent arguments against you?

You jumped on Sevis because of the Vi night kill. That is a terrible reason to suspect him. It discounts any of a number of possibilities, not the least of which is that the scum killed Vi simply because he is a good player.

You seem determined to misrep this case. Why? Do you know something the rest of the Town doesn't?

The first two were the only ones I seriously suspected at the time. The lurkers in general annoy me, but I couldn't really pick one out as legitimately being my third suspect. I continued reading and found that the town sentiment seemed to be leaning towards a nhammen or socrates lynch. Since I find socrates to be less scummy than nhammen, and I believe there is more information to be gained from lynching nhammen, I decided that should such an event come to pass I would support nhammen's lynch. Wanting to make this apparent to the town in a tangible way, I put him third on my scum list.

Couldn't find one to legitimately be your third suspect? The problem with this game is that there are too many scummy players, not too few.

You decided to add me as the third on your list because you wanted to follow the Town sentiment?

Hi.

Lynching nhammen or socrates will give us the most insight.

Why?

I roleblocked Socrates; there was a missing kill last night. However, this could also be due to a Doc protect, since I had already claimed RB before going into Night.

[nhammen]

@MS Sevis is likely scum. You are also likely scum on the other team, killing Vi and then leaping at the opportunity to blame it on Sevis. I'm guessing this is the logic you and your scum buddies came up with when selecting Vi, only they were clever enough not to bring it up.

You seriously think NKing Vi incriminates sevis that much? Or that anybody else would think that? Wow...

Sigh... apparently I am taking crazy pills. This is the opposite of what I'm saying. MS is the one who switched his vote to Sevis after the NK, and I attacked him for it. For my case on Sevis please read my iso, particuarly D1.

Is this really that hard to follow?

I'm sorry I worded that badly. Let me try again. You are saying that MS is saying that NKing Vi incriminates sevis. Do you really think that MS thinks that this is true? And the fact that have to word it this way shows how much words you are putting into MS' mouth. Or are completely misunderstanding MS' "case" on sevis.

[nhammen]

Oh, wow, I think it's been 48 hours since my last post... How did this happen? Catching up... Need to procrastinate less. Will make a post in approx 2 hours. Maybe a little more...

[nhammen]

Yes, I do think he is saying that, and I do think it is wrong. Want to see why I think he is saying that?

I refuse to throw away a night kill as possible evidence because of WIFOM tendencies.

And its equally bad logic to not think Vi NK=/=Sevis scum. And no; I did not immediately leap on Sevis.

First one does look like he is saving scum killed Vi cuz sevis is scum. Second one looks perfectly reasonable. But if you look at his first post on the subject and most of his other posts, he is not saying that the incriminating evidence is the reason for the NK, but rather the read from the NK victim.

How much more immediate can it get than his first post of that day? It was even the 5th overall post of the day. Why not ask some probing questions of Sevis? Why not discuss the case from the day before? Once it's clear we're getting a Sevis replacement, why not wait to hear from Sevis replacement? If all he is going off is the case from D1, then why wasn't he with us on D1? Why wait for the NK and the WIFOM to be convinced? Both MS' play and his WORDS say that he is basing his case on the Vi NK.

No. I saw it as he is basing his read on the fact that Vi is CONFIRMED TOWN now that he is dead, so Vi's reads can be given more weight. Or maybe I'm seeing his case wrong.

Vote: Nhammen

Really? Absolutely no analysis at all? You could at least say hello, the experience you've had with the game, and why you think nhammen is scummy.

I agree with this... Agreeing with my top scum suspect. This makes me feel dirty...

In other news I stumbled across this gem while I was isoing Sevis:

Interesting finds, both nhammen and Parama. Now that I re-read foilist's posts, he does seem to be rolefishing quite a bit: previously, I took this for him just trying to make sense of the game. I still don't get the feeling that he's scum, but I'm not too sure just yet. Vezo really is contributing far less to the game than he could be, hinting at the role without any clarification only helps scum, as far as I can see.

The speed with which Chronopie jumped on the nhammen wagon does surprise me -- he seems to be hoping to put the focus away from him and thus be forgotten. This doesn't look like very pro-town play to me. I also have to agree that his attempts at rolefishing would cause more harm if they were successful (I see LMP's role and knowledge to currently be of more importance than vezo's).

FOS: Chronopie

Unvote; Vote: nhammen

Anyone up for a shrinehime wagon?

unvote, vote:shrinehime

Yes, my attacks are entirely hypocritical, and the only reason I'm not targeting myself is because I know my own alignment. Would you suggest I target nobody at all?

LMP complained I'm targeting someone who isn't all that scummy: I asked him who he finds scummier than Dr. Robotnik in the list of players I've had time to read on.

Oh my god why isn't this guy dead?

Hmmm... Considering it... Especially since only one player is joining me on the askbob wagon.

If you even bother to look at the time stamps you'd know it wasn't immediate >.< I can read pretty fast, but hell to the freaking no can I read that many pages in a *Snap* like that... It was a hour or two.

Stop saying I immediately jumped on it because of my first post being my vote on him.

THAT

is stupid. Sorry~

So you couldn't do the reread during the night like I did? You had to wait for day 2 to start to do a reread? Why is that, where you busy in the night time? If so, with what?

Ummm... you do realize that what caused him to do a reread is seeing that Vi is Town, right?

I think roleblocker is a fairly unlikely role for town to have. I also don't like the way nhammen gave his report and instantly voted SGR.

While I don't agree about roleblocker being a fairly unlikely role for town to have, I do agree that nhammen was way to aggresive with his vote on SGR. Almost like he was desperate to put the attention anywhere other than on himself.

nhammen didn't even consider for a moment that there could be other reasons for one less kill.

I agree with LMP here. Bolded is scummy of nhammen.

!@#$%^&*()
Except that I DID mention other possibilities. IN THE SAME POST THAT I VOTED HIM! I said that I didn't believe that the scum would have withheld their kill, but there was something else that I thought was likely. I later clarified that this something was the possibility of a Doc protect. I really should have specified that in the first place. I don't remember why I didn't, except that I had a specific reason for not doing so. I think maybe it was because I wanted to be able to catch a scumslip from a Mafia member that knew who the kill was made by, just in case the kill wasn't made by SGR. But the possibility of a Doc protect was fairly obvious. So I don't know why I would have thought that if SGR didn't make the Mafia kill, that only Mafia would immediately mention it.

ya i ignore u questshun cuz it suck and i alredy fond scum nhammen and askbob, with a socrates scum on the other team.

Maybe some cases would be nice?

[nhammen]

I would be fairly surprised if you were a werewolf without Nhammen also being a werewolf and this is a turbo bus, but your play is picture perfect of what I would expect out of a member of the mafia.

Why is Unsight so obv town? And I don't know how comfortable I am with SC liking SSBF's town list and saying "Ok, I'm willing to go with this". Frankly it looks pretty bad to me.

2 posts before SSBF's list, SC says he can't find enough obv town to do it, and suddenly SSBF's post essentially saying "me, you and Unsight are" is enough to convince him? 1337 and 1341 stink.

FOS: SerialClergyman

I had an early game Town read on SC, so I ignored scummy behavior from him because this early game read was very strong. I need to reassess.

@1326 (Socrates) - how do you work out if people, say, "Aren't mafia"? With no dead scum, aren't both groups basically interchangable?

Two differences. Actions regarding the Mason/Monk claims. Actions regarding the RB on Socrates. Not interchangeable. Note: most of his differences are from the RB.



@nacho 1369 Cool robotnik case.

vote robotnik

3) And most importantly: Do you really think that SSBF is confirmed town, or is it because he came up with this? I find it incredibly convenient that he suddenly gets to be confirmed town even though he is on several people's scum lists. That applies to you as well.

The only people I can remember that have SSBF in their scum list are members of the Parama clique. And if you think those are the people that we should pay attention to...

While I'm still reading why isn't Goat dead? (I may fall asleep here soon but)

He was superlurk. Hard to read. Then, he was replaced by Nik. WHo is still catching up.



@Town Group: I can accept this idea, but it might be a good idea to wait one more game Day. I'm not sure. I know that with the flak I have taken, I won't be in this group, but I'm OK with the group if the included members make sense. I can get behind Lowell's inclusion. And SSBF. I would have said SC as well, but Soc and LMP raised good points. I have to reread him before I can say yes to that. I disagree with Unsight's inclusion. Too much hiding. I was considering for a moment to RB Unsight last night, before I decided on SGR. And I still don't quite like Unsight's play. I don't think there are enough Town members to do this yet.

[nhammen]

Nhammen's roleblocker claim really doesn't have a whole lot to do with my view of him.

Would you mind stating where your view of me does come from?

I want this group of people that in some circles we would call the NEW BASTION OF DEATH:

Parama
Nacho
Serial
SSBF
Unsight
Socrates
LynchMePls

As I said before, I do not quite agree with Unsight's inclusion on this list.

to pick A single target from this list which shall be called THE LIST OF THE DEAD WALKING:

Midnight's Sorrow
Shrinehime
Timeeater
Nhammen

And make them dead. Right now.

No robotnik? No askbob?

Nhammen wouldn't bother me as much if he had posted earlier in the day today than ahead of the game. However, want to know a secret? Gut says we're gonna see a town flip here but now is the time to deal with it because THIS ARGUMENT EVERY DAY IS NOT AWESOME.

As Socrates has suggested, an investigation on me would answer the arguments, but keep a Town role.


I do not completely agree with the MS wagon. I have a slightly dumb Town read on him right now. He has acted scummy, but it is seemingly in his meta. And he is not the worst offender.

...Really?

Out of all the people this could apply to...you choose me?? Why?

Your terribad jumping on the smallest things and obvious trying to make it into something bigger then it is, when that very small thing could be very easily applied to other people, when ther are probably more BIGGER issues that may or may not be trying to be covered up in this...VERY obvious ploy, is very dully noted.~

And pray tell me now Leaf. How is what your doing now scumhunting? Your tunneling pure and simple. You don't even seem all that bothered with trying to find scum else where. As long as you get rid of your annoyance right?

(Tunneling accusation is probably fair, but the defence amounts to deflection)

Are you using a different definition of deflection than I am? Deflection is when someone completely ignores the attacks against them and tries to move attention elsewhere. He, on the other hand, has either defended against or admitted to all of the accusations against him, but said it does not make scum. This is not deflection.

He also uses broken Tu Quoque a lot... which feels like a slightly modified form of deflection.

What is this word? If you are going to use strange terms, it would be nice to have a meaning...

Sorry for acting like a newb, but what exactly is deflection? I haven't really seen it on Mafiascum Wiki.

When you try to deflect negative attention off of yourself onto someone else, usually while avoiding points made against you.

And with that,

Vote: Midnight Sorrow

. A fast-paced wagon to get us moving.

I haven't "avoided" any points made against me Pom. Nice try there

You're implying that I accused you of doing so.

So, you are saying you disagree with Leafsnail's accusation of deflection?

Town:
foilist13
Faraday
Lowell
LynchMePls
nhammen
Parama
SpyreX
SerialClergyman
Unsight
vezopiraka
Super Smash Bros. Fan

I think they're all self explanatory^ some are stronger than others but w/e

Does everyone have a Town read on Unsight? What am I apparently missing? For me, Unsight is sitting right in between Town and Scum.

Dr. Robotnik
Dry-fit
askbob
Leafsnail
Midnight's Sorrow
Nachomamma8
Pomegranate
Shrinehme
Socrates
Nikanor
Timeater

The people on the not town have varying degrees of scumminess. I'd not mind all of them dying at once though, in fact I think that it'd contain pretty much all the scum.

Socrates/Shrin/Dry-fit as my top 3 I think.

Unsure on the MS wagon, I'm not actively against it but I think there are better options.

Agree with most of this list. MS appears a bit Townie to me... Soc is only scummy for his predecessor's play, and the added probability because of the block.

Speaking of which:
@Soc, what do you think of your predecessor's play?
@nacho, what do you think of your predecessor's play?
@Nik, what do you think of your predecessor's play?

Maybe these questions are useless, but maybe they help... Never know.

@Everyone: I want you to list out your top two to six suspects here with explaination why (No need to put in order, except that you mention your top suspicion). Also, do you think we're ready for a Day 2 lynch?

Isn't this sort of what Timeater asked? Except with the addition of cases. And if anybody answered Timeater's question and had not mentioned the player beforehand, they took flak for it. So what reason is there to do the exact same thing again?

I'm planning on making a list of everyone's top two to six suspects. It won't include the explaination as it would make it too long, but it will include all suspects. I plan on updating this list daily.

Woo! Have fun with that! For my list, just use the list I provided Timeater with and add robotnik. If you don't know my reasons... ask me. But I think I have given reasons for each of them, so...

One point is added to a person when they land on another person's second to sixth most scummiest group. Two point is added when a person is on another person's top suspect choice, which will be bolded.

The benefit of this list is that it could help us find an general opinion on who we think is scum.

If you can't find the general opinion on who is scum, then you haven't been reading the thread very well.

Sorry for acting like a newb, but what exactly is deflection? I haven't really seen it on Mafiascum Wiki.

"Person x is doing it too!! Why aren't you attacking them??"

Wait.

That

is your definition of deflection? That is called finding a scumtell. And a pretty solid one at that. And you think that finding this is scummy? What

are

you smoking?

Interestingly enough this is a question that never really got properly answered.

The initial vote? Ridiculous amounts of active lurking.

His question was why attack him for this, but not sevis or robotnik or askbob or any of the others that were also doing this. And now I kinda want to know the answer as well...

Can you give a link, please?

Serial gave a link when I asked him for one. If you ISO him, you should find it.

Spyrx, Your just as hypocritical as Leaf was, when asked why he chose one out of all the ones that the very same accusations could apply to, only to ignore the question, and stick with that one to the exclusion of all else.

JESUS CHRIST ARGH

JESUS CHRIST ARGH

You know what?

Screw it!!

I'm so absolutely f-ing confident that Sevis/Shrine is scum, that I'll willingly go to f-ing noose myself the next day phase if he flips otherwise!

Robonik can wait!! I sees me some Sevis/Shrine scum~

Unvote
Vote:Shrine

Hilariously sudden change of heart is hilarious sudden.

Except for the fact that he has been pushing a sevis case all Day long.

The best part, though, is that he puts Dr Robotnik at the top for "active lurking" and yet has been defending Midnight's Sorrow (also on his list :/) from Spyrex. Awesome work dude.

I think you called this thing deflection. Wow! So you are doing it too!!

[nhammen]

1) inconsistent posting and lurking are very different things. Inconsistent posting is refering to him appearing when he needs to defend himself, and then disappearing when the wagon cools down.

Oh. Tell me more.

Parama needs to be on the must-die list but the rest is fine with me.

This is why you're a brick wall.

Posting for the sake of posting is uncool.

But I'm not posting for the sake of posting.

I'm posting for the sake of telling you why you're absolutely wrong.

Because saying "your wrong" is the same thing as telling

why

someone is wrong. I'm glad you cleared that up.


I've noticed I'm in a very sarcastic mood today...

Sevis/Shrine is scum.

This slot has done far more genuine scum tells then most of the people being voted for today. He posts have been nothing

but

Anti-Town, almost always contradicting of themselves. Several people have been down his back last D-1, and now, now that a NP has gone by, these very same people(Sanzing Vi of course ) are suddenly having cold feet on this slot. A slot that they were so sure was scum last DP. Add to the fact that YET again this slot is going to get away, this slot is seeing so much resistance for being lynched, it isn't even funny. Especially when all anyone has to do is ISO the slot to figure out that he is the answer to this DP's question.

I've been considering joining this wagon, but I am giving the replacement a few RL days so that I have enough posts to get a good read.

[nhammen]

Mr. Roboto is probably town.

Agreed. And I believe for the same reason.

unvote

While I haven't seen Leaf say that he does not want sevis/shrine lynched, I have seen him say that he found that slot scummy, but refuse to push that slot, and instead attacked other players. I have seen nothing to convince me that he actually does find the slot scummy. And his refusal to answer questions is also bothering me.

[nhammen]

Hey shrine, instead of just responding to attacks against you, why don't you actually comment on other players. You only have done this twice. Once when you had read the first 16 pages, and listed you suspects as the three largest wagons up to that point. And the second point was, "Vote: Dr. Robotnik lynch is great." Yeah, that is so descriptive.

Since I have unvoted, and have been wanting more content from you, and was already suspicious of your slot,

vote shrine

[nhammen]

Generally when someone claims the Town should lynch them anyway, unless their claim confirms them. Town isn't playing well when they suddenly decide to lynch someone new after they pressure a claim out of them [Nhammen, Robotnik]. It's anti-town behavior and the people that this applies to should be looked at more closely later in the game.

That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. This strategy essentially means that if you are brought to L-1, you shouldn't claim. What in the -

Look, if you believe someone to be Town, you don't lynch them. Regardless of whether or not they have claimed.

[nhammen]

@ Nacho IDK my vote is on who I think is most likely to be scum, I've no idea why the soc wagon fell apart. RAIIZE was horribly scummy.

unvote vote ROBOTNIK

looks scummier than MS who has a slightly better chance of being town.

Isn't the choice between Robotnik and shrine?

Getting scum lynched; yes; possibly; yes respectively.

Not sure why MS is looking town for saying something so obviously wrong (I have not made any kind of 180 on Sevis or Shrine - in fact, I didn't even comment on him before MS started randomly accusing me of it) and then following it up with overconfidence. Eh.

@Leaf, is your suspect list still the same as the three you provided for Timeater? Where would sevis/shrine be on your list?

[nhammen]

one of the last games i played on here, i seem to recall a similar scenario involving Shrine. He's a very easy target.

Shrine replaced sevis, who was very suspicious. Shrine's play has not made me feel any better about this player-slot.

I'm really not liking this game right now, because my top 4 yesterday were askbob, SGR, pman, and sevis and all of them have now replaced out. But these things happen...

Also, when ISO comes back, I need to ISO Parama, because I realized that I don't know why Parama suddenly found Unsight Town. I know it happened about a week ago or so, but I can't remember why.

[nhammen]

I would have liked to have waited for a claim first, to see A) if we could get reactions and B) if it made sense with his play.

[nhammen]

Ythan - about my really weird post. I was setting up a breadcrumb, because I was almost certain my attempt to lynch Tubby would backfire, or I would need to explain it the next day.

I

f you really don't believe me, it's understandable.

S

ometimes you just need to go with gut.

O

nce in a while, it'll work.

R

eally though, this is a bit more than gut.

C

all it an 'informed decision'.

E

ducated guess if you will.

R

ight now, we're competing between lynching an anti-town player, a player who is very likely scum and now being introduced is tubby's possible lynch.

E

very one of them has a case.

R

ightfully so.

N

one are better than this though.

O

therwise I wouldn't be pushing it.

P

erhaps it's a bit of a stretch, given the one post I've left you too look at, but it'll make sense.

R

ead the post, read my posts, you'll get a better idea.

O

nce the time is right, I'll spell it out if I have to.

T

hat's something I'd rather avoid, but if I must, I will.

T

ime is on our side though, so really try and figure it out.

U

nder any other circumstances, I'd be more direct with this.

B

ut I can't be.

B

ecause there are reasons.

Y

ou understand, don't you?

Spells out: I SORCERER NO PROT TUBBY.

I hadn't protected Tubby either of those nights, so I thought Pom was trying to clear Tubby by saying "We tried to kill him." I nearly shit a brick when he flipped mafia and not werewolf.

Ugh! Pom was obviously implying that Tubby was some sort of un-NKable role. I wasn't sure if this was a scum gambit of some type, but she was obviously trying to get him lynched, so Tubby was definitely not Werewolf. At the beginning of the next day I was screaming to myself that nobody was mentioning the comment.

As soon as you started using cryptic language to describe your reasons you were obv PR. If you are a PR, and think your role information had found a scum, you DO NOT use cryptic methods to get him. Find something else suspicious they have done and PUSH on that. Never be cryptic in your suspicions; it points a neon arrow at you.

It's murder on a mod to try to police that sort of thing. Plus, as long as it can be faked, I don't see any reason that one should try.

I have never ever seen someone fake a breadcrumb. It can be done, but it isn't done as often as the real thing. I partially agree with Michel about his rule. Not quite enough to use the rule myself, but a little bit. There was a Mason breadcrumb in Mafia 110 made by Konowa that would be very hard to fake if it had needed to be used as first thought up. (One mason breadcrumbed and then mentioned the breadcrumb in the QT. The other mason could then show the other players where this breadcrumb was.) A very well made breadcrumb is as strong as encryption.



Well, during the course of the game I pegged 3 scum (askbob, foilist, and Pom) but dropped my suspicion of foilist because foilist defended me when it wasn't necessary. Dumb me. I wish Pom would have been the one to make the kill N2. Then my role would have at least done something.

Also, congrats for your push on me on D1 Parama. I would say more, but I don't want to reopen any argument... Also, the number of players that were sheeping in this game is just awful. vezo, your insistence on following Parama in almost everything really really hurt us.