NY 120: Flash mafia 2. GAME OVER

[Oman]

Totally forgot about this game. Will try to read and post on my phone in work standby.

[Oman]

Espeonage is doing the same thing as Parama, over-explaining himself.

This was my big first tell on him too, as was the rest of that first post he made about rvs

Unvote
Vote: Espeonage

This speaks for itself.

it certainly does, and I'm very much in agreement with this wagon. He's jumped out at me from the start quite branzenly. I'll quote and post to further explain when back on my PC.

[Oman]

vollkan. - points for the inquiry.

You seem to give a lot of people points for questioning you and calling you out on things. Protip: This means you are not playing well.

[Oman]

Damage been done. Really obvious if they start changing play based on case, only applicable if case is based on playstyle etc.

<3, this, +1, etc.

[Oman]

@Oman, what is your stance on Espeonage?

I disagree with mbf that the wagon is too easy. If he were town, I'd expect him at almost l-1 by now. The unfortunate fact is that my general rule of thumb involving speed does hurt me in a game like this where the experienced player re more conservative. However, I still think this is the neat wagon.

[Oman]

Just say gut, that's pretty much the only thing vollkan will listen to. He's got mad respect for the intuition.

[Oman]

Could have sworn I'd voted him, but my bad, meant to on that second post.

vote: espy

. I can't say exactly when I have and haven't been at work, nor can I talk about how busy I've been that may have kept me from posting. Suffice to say, I've not had reasonable opportunity.

[Oman]

So that's four wagons of 3, if we pretend Oman knew syntax.

Porochaz, Parama, Tripod, and Espeonage.
I hereby declare these four players off-limits until tomorrow. So sayeth MikeBurnFire. So shall it be.

unvote, vote Oman

Oman fucked syntax on his phone.

why are we voting him right now, out of curiosity? I don't like you avoiding wagons and delaying without explaining. Or have I missed something?

(Thanks Myko)

[Oman]

Will try tomorrow morning (roughly 7hrs).

[Oman]

For avoiding wagons? Why is that a town thing to do?

[Oman]

Acceptable but still null.
UNVOTE: vollkan
VOTE: Parama

lol. scum #2 right here

lol. your a better player than that.

This really bothers me. I know vollkan will hate me, but it gives me a rough gut feeling where the attack is "Lol, you think I'm scum, I thought you were a good player, but you're actually super-shit for thinking I'm scum." It's obviously designed to get the vote off him, but without any content.

@Espeonage: in you RVS theory post, you seem to feel strongly that providing reasons for votes is a good thing. Why aren't you giving reasons for yours?

I totally agree with this. Espy has a bad habit of saying "I'm acting in the town's interest, anyone against me is anti-town." And that is how he justifies the vollkan vote that this refers to.

Because my cases at this point lack the weight needed to convince the town at the moment. It would just create confusion and make the cases harder to make in the long run. I will be making cases on my suspects because they are scum. I'm sure everyone would agree that is what you do when you think you have found scum.

Oh and it was acceptable because it was a good reaction. The tone was good you didn't show the signs I would expect to find from a scums omgus ish vote and thus you have stayed null. In short you had an acceptable reaction by my standards.

Another "I do what I do because I'm town, you don't need to know yet".

I'm a gut player for the first day or two, I go with things that don't feel right, and this feels REALLY deceptive.

Not a whole lot of content on him, from what...maybe 16 posts total, maybe 6 of substance. Meh, hope I didn't get your hopes up.

[Oman]

When there are competing wagons and they are all at the same count alot of shit is going on mentally. Anyway, once a wagon gets bigger than the others it is the wagon that has momentum. When the wagon is on a scum it is usually a null tell because it is a prime time to bus. If the wagon that is voted for is on a townie then the person who changed their vote is even more likely to be a scum trying to get momentum on a townie wagon. mbf, by ignoring the two other wagons gets town points because he didn't force any wagon ahead which is a rather townie move to make seeing as we are definantly not in the rvs any more.

It's also a really good way to way for scum to avoid having to make a choice. Town's goal is to lynch scum, not to not lynch townies.
This is terrible mafia theory on your part.

I don't get the same feeling from this as from the Oman who was giving cheering <3s to his friends points against Esp and saying you'd expect him to be almost on L-1 by now.

Gut play has the unfortunate side-effect of making me act emotionally until I review.

[Oman]

EBWOP: Standby for read of tripod.

[Oman]

And the point about it being a playstyle based case that he doesn't want to alert his suspects to?

I don't really buy it. If you alert someone to a playstyle being scummy, and then the change it instantly, that's a huge tell.

I don't think it's a viable excuse. But that is just me.

Also Vollkan, do you intend to play this game empirically with numbers? I'm interested to know your thresholds for votes, and your thresholds to lynch.

[Oman]

Copy all Vollkan, I disagree with numbers. Although it looks like you're actually just assigning values to what most people assign "rank" or "feelings". It works for me.

[Oman]

I think you're wrong, but I'm not going to correct you yet.

Why do you think Prozac-scum copied me?

Once Prozac-scum flips accordingly, his buddying puts you, a townie, square in the frame from the town's perspective - exactly what he (Prozac) set out to do in the first place. My suspicion of Oman takes the same premise.

This is stupid, seriously. Being friendly with Vollkan is independent of alignment, being silly with prozac is the same. I'm quite honestly a social player. I called shanba out on being british and posted pictures of Bert Oldfield in Utopia mafia. It's what I do, who I am.

And buddying to Vollkan is a pointless idea anyway, he is a cold blooded killer. Emotion is not his bag.

[Oman]

Uhhh are you serious, I hope this is a joke.

I'll go through them one by one if you want...but like... number 5, really?

[Oman]

There's social playing, and then there's you. ISO Post Numbers 1, 2, 3, 5, 10, 11, 13 and 15 are incirimating from my perspective. 8 out of a possible 16 is enough for me.

1: Noting that I agree with some comments is not buddying, the focus is on Espy, not on those players.

2: I- I just don't get how this is anything other than telling the dude he's scummy.

3: Prozac was right, I was supporting him.

5: Was a joke that Vollkan hates gut and intuition.

10: What don't you like about this? The fishy bit in the middle? let me quote it:

I totally agree with this. Espy has a bad habit of saying "I'm acting in the town's interest, anyone against me is anti-town." And that is how he justifies the vollkan vote that this refers to.

That is "buddying"? Really?

11: What the fuck? How does this have anything to do with my interactions with any other players? Espionage was on the wrong rails with the whole "Avoiding wagons = town" thing and I was correcting him. It's important to remember that people *might* not be lying to you, they might just be wrong, and think incorrectly.

13: I don't know what you want out of this. The bit asking vollkan about his play? I don't like people who play by the numbers, but Vollkan is much more intellectual in his play, more scientific. We just work differently and I wanted to know.

15: This is me calling you out for exactly what you're doing now.

You are silly, your list is silly, and if you stop being silly, we can have beers together and be mates.

[Oman]

Oman's feelings are hurt, dudette.

Oman does have interest in playing along, he just *hates* having to read back over things in a specific context. Especially as at page 10 he doesn't think a lot will come of it that wouldn't be found in a late-wagon stage (considering nilwagon-early wagon is kind of bland and mediocre in all games). Note that he's already had to do this *twice* (once for himself!).

So yeah, Oman will play along, but you wont have him at your beck and call. I play with you all, but I hate being prescribed how to play.

[Oman]

So yeah, Oman will play along, but you wont have him at your beck and call. I play with you all, but I hate being prescribed how to play.

Now you're just being weird, dude. We wanted to know what you think about UT. UT had

3 short posts

at the time of the 2 first questions and

6 posts

at this juncture. Do you not believe in the power of iso?
Seriously.

No, I believe in the power of context.

[Oman]

Finished my ut reread. Umm, I don't get the ut hate, if that helps. There is nothing scummy about it. His post on espy is actually pretty strong on terms of content to response ratio, has some really good points in there too. We independently arrived at the same conclusion (that espy's play is "omg, I caught scum, but I can't tell you how. If you were any good you'd find them too") which is always cool.

I think more content is required on the whole including from myself, so I can't really call him on that. However what I can do is say that I'm a little shocked that ut has become worthy of requested investigation. I usually see that from people suspecting scumbuddies, or from people who want to convince the askee.

Can you explain why you both wanted me to talk about ut?

[Oman]

For all, just so that you're sure

12) If a majority is not reached by deadline, the person with the highest number of votes as long as it is more than one will be lynched. In the case of a tie, the first person to reach that number of votes will be lynched.

[Oman]

As it stands, I'm fine with killin Tripod.

Please explain this. It makes no sense to me. Not to mention you never really explained voting me.

[Oman]

I'd be happy to see porochaz over ut, but that is a late deadline thing.

Re: ut affecting me gut, no. He wasn't all that scummy, and if he is scum he's doing a poor job.

BruceContext, Luchris, is just that I hate ISO because you don't actually get any tactical idea of what the game is doing around those comments. ISO is detrimental to scumhunting because it forces tunnelvision and of course i ISOing someone, any player will look more scummy by default.f

[Oman]

I do, because I think that we're in a strong position right now where shifting wagons WILL affect a lynch. Meaning people who do or don't have a serious interest in one side or the other.

[Oman]

I'd definitly buy a Luchris over prozac

unvote; vote: prozac

[Oman]

I'd definitly buy a Luchris over prozac

unvote; vote: prozac

I am the biggest tool. This is meant to be a Luchris vote. Fuck. I don't know what he's on now so I won't swap over until I know. Until then:

unvote

[Oman]

Already stated that I think ut is scum-driven. Don't like this shit at all

vote Richard

due numbers I would still prefer several others over him, but what's done is done and this is a deadline decision.

[Oman]

Day 2 has started...I uhh..I forgot to check this. Expect a post tonight, a big post, w/ detail.

Also, Not Voting is a scummy bastard and needs to die, I disagree with Ythill that Not Voting is a scumwagon and think that we need to get Not Voting lynched before he pushes his scum agenda more!

[Oman]

Day 2 has started...I uhh..I forgot to check this. Expect a post tonight, a big post, w/ detail

Case in point about active lurking. This is not a response to his prod which he must have read about 10 hours before posting this (GD presence etc.). But 20 minutes after getting a second vote he responds with this.

I was prodded about 2 minutes before I posted. So this is, you know, wrong.

Other than that I can't give you guys a whole lot right now, the game is one of those where I make an assumption (i.e. Ythill scum) and within a day or two that is shattered. In case you couldn't pick it up, both UT and Ythill are in my town-books, with others around the middle, I don't have one clear suspect. I do have one question though: what's going on with the Luchris-love. I liked the Luchris wagon for a D1 lynch at one stage but there was a huge derail for some reason.

One comment was "i like his/her responses" but they didn't seem all that convincing in the end. To be honest, I don't understand d why the wagon swung off. Please: those who unvoted, can you say why?

[Oman]

If timestamps are allowed I'll post mine.

mod? Your call. Unless you want to confirm pm times yourself.

So Ythill knowing Elli is here makes you feel that Luchris is more town?

[Oman]

From my knowledge there is no case on me beyond "lurking". Except for the one above.for which vollkan displayed similar comprehension to me.

[Oman]

I am aware of the amount of work that goes info convincing.people, and I didn't have The time causing a flaw in any wagon I push. Realism > hope any day.

More to the point I stated why I didn't vote Luchris straight up.

How do you respond to this guys: Ythill is town.

[Oman]

Okay, I was actually prodded twelve hours and two minutes prior to my post. I missed the am/pm thing because I use 24hr time usually. My mistake.

[Oman]

Phone, on a week long course for work. Safe to say that I dont get why Oman-scum would say ut is town more than Oman-town. I get the basic theory, I get buddying, I get all that but not why its more likely from scum than town. Townies have opinions too.

MBF leads me down a rabbit hole, I have no idea where I read him. He's voted me (several times? Maybe twice) with so little for me to defend against, or even pretend to refute. OJ gives me a better vibe today than yesterday, for those who care.

And re: my timing. PM came at 0602 and I responded at 1804, however I read this as getting the PM at 0602pm and responding 0604pm, as I either wasn't on or didn't see the pm for 12hrs.

[Oman]

I'm happy to vote.

vote; MBF

[Oman]

no MBF, I'm not voting you for deadline, I'm voting you because you aren't giving me anything other than "unreadable" and that, if this makes sense, seems really anti-town. basically even Townies get me thinking they're scum every now and then, but you're striking me as so cautious and non-commital that I do not believe you are town.

[Oman]

I want to make the point that this is another time that MBF has voted me, with his only explanation so far being that my vote for him unsettled him. To be truthful, that wasn't why I voted him; it was a pressure vote in the strictest sense on someone I couldn't read, the fact that it drew him to vote me with another reasoned vote doesn't give me much.

However, my gut says scum, I just can't figure out why.

Good on IS for helping this game grow a pair. That speech makes me want to self-hammer vigorously. Freeeeedom!

I'm a joat, one track, one rb, one protect. I do have a question though: MBF, did you target anyone last night?

[Oman]

Thought I'd throw out a gambit, but after a second's consideration it actually has a greater potential to hurt town than to catch possible MBFscum. Poor judgement on my part.

I targets Ythill for the Track, he didn't target anyone. Note that this doesn't mean that he is town, only that he isn't the scum who performed a kill, or is untrackable for some reason.

Oh, and I don't think he's town for that reason, I just think that Ythill is a protown dude.

What else can I say, that is my claim. If it really is that terrible, then blame the mod, not the messenger. Although it does sound like an Oman fakeclaim, doesn't it? Overcomplicated. I'm about a NK-Immune off that claim being like PEGBAM. However, despite appearances, the claim tells the truth, and so do I.

[Oman]

I did, the day hadn't started.

[Oman]

I'm not entirely sure how I am meant to answer that.

I tracked Ythill, he didn't target anyone. Pretty sure that gives me fuck all information on how Prozac died.

[Oman]

No, Ythill, if you don't believe my claim, it's outside of the result that I claimed.

I didn't protect Prozac because of basic WIFOM, I didn't expect him to get targeted. We can assume that any game is going to carry one of A) Protecting, B) Investigative, C) Influencing. While that isn't true for each, we're looking at about 80-90% EASILY that will have those, especially in the "normal" category. The N1 kill is critical for scum, basically, it's the easy kill where there is the LEAST amount of information divulged. As the game increases, and more info comes out, then more information is inherent in each kill. It's critical to scum play for the Night One kill to go through. We're expecting that there is a protective role that can combat them, an investigative role that can catch them, and an influential role that can fuck with them. So they will combat these as much as possible by A) Killing the best balance between unlikely to be protected, and likely to be dangerous to them, and B) having the least suspected scum member perform the kill.

For this reason I thought that Prozac was not the dude that was likely to be killed because he didn't fit A). The simple fact that a protective role could exist should have been enough of a deterrent.

Of course, there is also that fact that I expected to make it past D2, wherein a late protect is more useful than a late track, and I can only use each once.

[Oman]

IMG

The look in his eyes...

[Oman]

Hammah! Well, I mean its good that you listened to IS about balling up and making a decision.

I didn't lie to you guys, not once, which is kind of weird for me. Things I learned include: don't expect scum to make optimal play; and the devil is in the details.

I think that you can find your own reactions within the game but I do recommend that regardless of his alignment you keep up with IS' plan: keep pushing.

I'm sorry that I've earned ire here too, I didn't play the way others would've, and i feel I will earn some resentment from that.


In the end, I love you all. And I'm sorry prozac

[Oman]

I think you were wrong there too, but either way you were likely intentionally pushing a mislynch.

[Oman]

My claim was so scummy

Well played Scum, and I echo Fishy's kudos, and wish to add that IS moving the town along was actually what they needed. Regardless of his scum affiliations.