Oldy Mafia (Game Over, who won?)

[ChannelDelibird]

ChannelDelibird replaces Untrod Tripod.

Can I get a hell yeah?

Great to be playing with you all. I'll be reading up over the next day or so depending on how verbose y'all are being.

Unvote

if applicable.

[ChannelDelibird]

Read the first five pages. Will try to get through the rest tonight, hopefully. So far Ecto and Mert look like scumz.

[ChannelDelibird]

Why do you people all have to be so damn well-spoken? This game gives me an inferiority complex.

I'm up to page 13 in my read.

[ChannelDelibird]

OK, I've read the thread in full once through. Most of the below is transcribed more or less directly from my stream-of-consciousness notes as I read through.

Mert

Didn't like the early post about "not feeling the CTD wagon if I'm honest". inHim made a good point in 143 about Mert seeming like an outside observer. After his catch up post somewhere around page 12/13 IIRC (forgot to take down post number) he hasn't said anything. Very quiet, and while I am aware there was some kind of family emergency I was under the impression that had been resolved. Want to hear more from Mert because I was interested in developing my read on him from early on and haven't had the opportunity since.

Does get points for calling me town in 303 before I even entered the game, though.

DGB

Obviously there's some injoke about Magician's Mafia I'm missing, and I know she just replaced in, but voting CES for the obvious answer that both he and Glork IMO would have given to her weird opening question is just a bit off. DGB, would you have voted Glork if he'd read your post first and said basically the same thing as CES?

Shanba

I've liked a lot of what Shanba has said, particularly regarding inHim. Would like to hear more from him but I forgive him somewhat because it's the Ashes and nobody's getting a lot of sleep at the moment.

Lord Gurgi

Looks pretty town. 379 re:inHim is excellent.

Ythill

I'm back and forth on Ythill. I thought CTD in 138 made a valid point about how he dismissed CTD's attack because they were made while CTD was the subject of a large wagon, even though I obviously disagree with CTD's vote. However, certainly around page 6 Ythill and I seemed to be thinking along pretty much the same lines regarding who looked like scums. Has Ythill played with chamber before? His argument just before he moved his vote to chamber looked dead similar to the classic newbie playing his first game with chamber. MBL's 344 really made me look at Ythill differently (in a made-me-want-to-lynch-Ythill way). The "impromptu Yoswagon" vote was really strange because, on one hand, I had an unexplained weird feeling about Yos in the couple of pages prior to that and the vote appealed to that without me really knowing why, but on the other, it was presented with no basis at all and seemed a really left-field way to leave his true suspicions alone for a while. I did really like his 430 re:Yos though, which made me go "ahhh...that's what I was thinking".
I really can't decide where I stand on Ythill. I think he's made some good arguments but has also behaved really strangely and MBL's 344 really hit home with me. I could probably go for a Ythill lynch but I need to do some rereading to solidify my opinion if possible first.

HackerHuck

His early arguments against Ythill looked like town barking up the wrong tree but I don't feel we've had very much from him since.

Ectomancer

Post 109 really pinged, lots of weird statements about dividing the town into camps and playing AGGRESSIVE MIND GAMES, to coin a phrase. MBL and stark in 167 and 212 I really agreed with. Also have been frustrated with his long delays in putting opinions down on paper. Started to have my doubts around page 13, I think around the same time I started feeling weird about Yos. At this stage Ecto still looks scummy to me, I'd probably go along with a lynch, but I want to decide what exactly it is I think about Yos before that hypothetically happens.

stark

Pretty frickin' town.

inHimshallibe

Hated post 184, Shanba said exactly what I was thinking in 248 regarding it being a bet-hedging of epic proportions. As I say I really liked Gurgi's 379 regarding inHim too. One of my top suspects at the moment. Could definitely go for an inHim lynch.

Yosarian2

My top priority for a reread. Gut read says scum and Ythill's recent posts seem to support that, but I need to explain my gut read to myself before I'm willing to do anything about it over, say, inHim.

MBL

Leaning town, has made a few posts regarding Ythill and Ecto that really hit home with me.

Flameaxe, Glork, CES, Fritzler, chamber

Rereading these guys, but didn't get much from any of them first time through and would like to hear more from all of them.

----------------

Vote: inHimshallibe

[ChannelDelibird]

I'm just waiting for inHim to respond to my post, or for anyone else in the game to acknowledge it. I'm pretty annoyed that no one else has commented on it.

Hi.

[ChannelDelibird]

@CDB:

I've played with chamber before but it's been awhile. Do I need to play my n00b card yet?

Nah, it's cool. Gonna have to file your exchange with him just before your vote as 'weird', though.

[ChannelDelibird]

Post later tonight. I slept through today. >_>

[ChannelDelibird]

Post later tonight. I slept through today. >_>

Hello, lurkerscum!

Hi, DGB, I may not have explicitly spoken to you about the Ashes yet, but I'm currently spending all night listening to the cricket and all day asleep. I can't post as much as you guys have (it's only been two days since my last, anyway).

[ChannelDelibird]

Dense game is dense. >_< I don't know what else I was expecting. I'll be fully up to speed within 18 hours.

I'm not going to be on an MBL wagon today. inHim is still the place to be. I'll move to Ecto if I have to but I still want to go over Yos before I commit to that.

[ChannelDelibird]

MBL - inHim vote please?

Would like stark to pipe up? A lot of people (myself included) were calling him anything from town-looking to obvtown not long ago but he's been quiet since we found ourselves in this split deadline situation.

I haven't played much with Ecto before, so forgive me if this is a dumb question, but does the Doc claim help to explain why Ecto's been so frustrated at being voted so much? Either way, I feel like my vote is in the right place.

[ChannelDelibird]

Yos and Hacker both placing first votes on people this close to wagon does not seem helpful.

(For the record, I don't see why I would want to lynch chamber today. Mert I guess I would settle for, but still rather inHim.)

[ChannelDelibird]

Eh. Two and a half hours to go.

Unvote, Vote: Mert

[ChannelDelibird]

I'm behind on just about everything at the moment. Rereading this game in particular makes my brain sore (I have trouble reading good players). I'm still here, though, and I'm not sure what's the best move. I want to vote Yos but I still haven't got any kind of a case of my own. I'm going to

[ChannelDelibird]

Sorry, guys. This game is a painful reminder of how good at this game I'm not. =/

Ythill, I don't see any reason why the events of the night would make inHim any less likely to be scum, so I'd be happy to get back on the wagon.

Vote: inHimshallibe

I'm aware that's a low quality vote, but someone's gotta be the sheep here.

DGB's analysis is tl;dr for me. tl;dr is also the main reason why I keep putting off serious rereads. I can't promise that I will overcome that particular issue any time soon.

[ChannelDelibird]

Limited access until Tuesday.

[ChannelDelibird]

Hi guys, I'm still V/LA until Tuesday evening and do not have time to catch up with this game until Wednesday.

[ChannelDelibird]

Hi guys, I just got back from V/LA. I've been travelling for two straight days and am completely shattered (off to bed as soon as I've posted this message everywhere), but I'll be catching up tomorrow.

[ChannelDelibird]

So the problem I'm having at the moment is that you guys are posting faster than I can catch up. I requested replacement in a couple of games yesterday for the purpose of making sure I can stick with this one. I promised Patrick I wouldn't flake and so I am determined not to.

The wagon on me appears to be receding so I feel like claiming now would be a bit counter-productive (and I don't see any reason why it would affect DGB's view of me anyway). If I am wrong and more than, say, the four people still voting for me want me to, then I will.

[ChannelDelibird]

So the problem I'm having at the moment is that you guys are posting faster than I can catch up. I requested replacement in a couple of games yesterday for the purpose of making sure I can stick with this one. I promised Patrick I wouldn't flake and so I am determined not to.

The wagon on me appears to be receding so I feel like claiming now would be a bit counter-productive (and I don't see any reason why it would affect DGB's view of me anyway). If I am wrong and more than, say, the four people still voting for me want me to, then I will.

How much have you read?

I got stuck at page 41 when CTD posted a huge tl;dr. Wading back in now.

[ChannelDelibird]

So the problem I'm having at the moment is that you guys are posting faster than I can catch up. I requested replacement in a couple of games yesterday for the purpose of making sure I can stick with this one. I promised Patrick I wouldn't flake and so I am determined not to.

The wagon on me appears to be receding so I feel like claiming now would be a bit counter-productive (and I don't see any reason why it would affect DGB's view of me anyway). If I am wrong and more than, say, the four people still voting for me want me to, then I will.

How much have you read?

I got stuck at page 41 when CTD posted a huge tl;dr. Wading back in now.

And explain to me how you know the wagon on you is "receding".

Because I checked recent vote counts to see whether DGB had got her wish of a wagon on me. This seems a normal first thing to do when catching up to me. This sounds pretty slimy of you.

[ChannelDelibird]

So the problem I'm having at the moment is that you guys are posting faster than I can catch up. I requested replacement in a couple of games yesterday for the purpose of making sure I can stick with this one. I promised Patrick I wouldn't flake and so I am determined not to.

The wagon on me appears to be receding so I feel like claiming now would be a bit counter-productive (and I don't see any reason why it would affect DGB's view of me anyway). If I am wrong and more than, say, the four people still voting for me want me to, then I will.

How much have you read?

I got stuck at page 41 when CTD posted a huge tl;dr. Wading back in now.

And explain to me how you know the wagon on you is "receding".

If you've read up to page 41, surely you have some thoughts about the game up to that point that you can share. If not, why not?

The thing about this game is that you're all so fucking verbose and well-spoken, I basically read almost every post and think "well, that seems a fair explanation". I feel like you're all seeing the game on a level above me. Trying to decide which posts are actually scummy requires one to read "heavy", really scrutinising each post, and that contradicts the best way to read catching up, which is quick, skimmy, to get up to speed with the bare events of the game. That's what I'm doing right now (up to page 46).

[ChannelDelibird]

OK, I've now read the whole thread, in a skimmy way, though, mostly to get caught up on the broad strokes of what's going on and anything regarding myself that I can answer or comment on, because I'm selfish like that. A couple of things I want to say:

DGB used my "DGB's analysis is tl;dr for me" as criticism of her analysis, it's not. not doubting usefulness or veracity, just that it was too long for me to want to read. Could be just natural tunneling but I don't like that it's used as fuel on my wagon.

Also not liking DGB's immediate reaction to my courtesy-post about being back in the country but needing to sleep, being that it was a ploy to have more time to fakeclaim. Like, I get that I'm lurky, and I understand that you would want to vote me for that, but I'm not in the business of lying about V/LA to gain an advantage and you using that as further evidence on a wagon pisses me off.

I don't feel like anyone's saying much of anything about HH at all, and he's not saying too much either, which would be fine if there wasn't also a lurkerwagon on me.

Wait, when did I become particularly more bandwagon-happy than everyone else, and why is that necessarily a bad thing in a game full of alpha players?

Re:Ether asking about my requested replacements and whether my alignment would have any relation to that - FWIW alignments had nothing to do with it, I'm still here because it's an invitational and I promised Patrick that I wouldn't flake.

Looks like Yos is the immediate thing to address in terms of heavier reading. I'll have some opinions on him tonight (currently 6PM my time). If I don't, get back on my wagon.

[ChannelDelibird]

OK, I read Day 2 again focusing on Yos and his wagon. Some thoughts:

early Day 2, Yos and Shanba had a debate about Yos and his Ectoviews. I'm inclined to believe Yos here, his 914 seems a pretty solid defence to Shanba's accusations.

I agree with MBL's 1043 regarding Yos' apparent belief that we should all be seeing obvchamberscum on the basis of flimsy evidence (Yos' defence to this is asking MBL to go and have another look at chamber and say what he thinks, which to me doesn't seem so much a defence as an obstacle). Also makes interesting point about misrepresenting Glork's withdrawal from the Ectowagon

Reply to Gurgi "So, you're unwilling to attack me even though you suspect me because you're worried you might lose the debate?"...feels goading

CTD's 1160 is a point against Yos.

Gurgi's 1194 is also a good reason to vote Yos.

That said, Yos' 1202 explanation of why he thinks inHim is town and why that made him move to MBL looks strongly town. Doesn't seem to me to be the way that an informed scum would approach the situation.

Glork's 1233 about when Yos voted chamber rather than inHim is compelling, though. That's before Glork suggested it was one of MBL/inHim, right?

Yos' 1261 (the emotional one where he gets pissed off at people coming up with theories why he should have been voting X and Y at time Z) also feels town to me. It's not impossible that's just me sympathising with a being-frustrated-at-this-game sentiment.

So I find myself

still

torn on Yos. I agree with too many of the attacks on him to ignore him, but 1202 and to a much lesser extent 1261 look like town posts to me. So at this stage, I feel like the most likely scenario is that Yos is town playing the worst game I've ever seen him play.

--------

In other news I'd like to retract that HH being quiet statement in my previous post, must just have been have an effect of my initial skimread. I don't think he's been particularly noteworthily ignored.

So the next thing I want to do (hopefully tomorrow) is go back and look at inHim. I thought he was scum when I did my initial catchup on Day 1 but that vote is pretty aged at this stage and needs reevaluation.

[ChannelDelibird]

Post on inHim coming tonight. Posting this to make sure I post that.

[ChannelDelibird]

Hi guys, sorry I didn't get that inHim post done that night. Working on it ASAP, but my girlfriend is now in town until the 5th and I haven't seen her for two months so am a little distracted right now.

[ChannelDelibird]

Got my prod. Deadline hits before my girlfriend leaves town so I strongly doubt I'll be able to post anything much before then, but looks like my vote is in the right place.

[ChannelDelibird]

Girlfriend-induced inactivity is now over. Will look at HH in the next 24 hours.

[ChannelDelibird]

Look at everyone.

Focusing on one player at a time is the reading method that's most likely to get me to develop useful opinions. HH is the first person I want to look at. That doesn't mean I'm going to ignore others afterwards.

[ChannelDelibird]

Keep in mind that I'm not

just

saying these things at you so I can read you.

But fine.

Is the current wagon the only reason you're deciding to look at Huck specifically? Do you have an opinion on him

now?

I know. And while I appreciate the sentiment, I am quite aware of my responsibilities in this game. My point is that reading one-by-one is what I think is the quickest way I'll get to having an opinion on everyone.

As I may have hinted at yesterday, I haven't really noticed HH's presence too much so far. Skimming the game, I've seen posts at consistent intervals but he doesn't seem to be having much influence and doesn't seem to mind that. I feel he's more of an enigma than most. The current wagon is further reason to look at him first, but I think I would have done anyway.

---------

CES: No.

[ChannelDelibird]

OK, HackerHuck. Writing this as I go through from the start of Day 2.

First post of Day 2 is about saying that there is at least one scum out of {Stark(now Ether), Lord Gurgi, Shanba, Chamber, Glork} and then looks into them next post. His willingness to make a case on Stark when just about everyone else in the game at that point is saying he's obvtown or close to it is a pro-town sign. Says Glork looks town citing his pre-calling of Mert- and Fritz-town. Decides Stark and possibly Shanba are the scum from that group. After Ether replaces in, he says he's a little disappointed nobody is biting his Stark case and doesn't see it happening soon with the new replacement. Doesn't push his Ether suspicion for ages.

Pops up during a V/LA to criticise people dropping off the Yoswagon because they thought his emotion was a towntell. Could be a sign that he's not in tune with town mindset. I'd call it an attempt to pressure those people back on to the wagon but he's pretty half-hearted about it so more of a token gesture if anything.

I know he's recently said again that he isn't pushing the Ether vote because he doesn't think anyone will back him on it without more evidence, but I'm wondering why he isn't making more of an effort to get people talking about it or quizzing Ether or something. That vote was something that looked town when he first made it but there's been little courage in his conviction in that respect since.

This is the main thing that I'm seeing with HH, that he just doesn't seem to be that bothered that he's not really having a great deal of influence on the game. Like, we keep seeing town corpses and he's just kind of sitting contentedly on the fact that he thinks Ether is scum. He's taken the points for taking an unsheeply stance on her but looks pretty happy not to have that tested any time soon.

Vote: HackerHuck

for now, subject to change if I find someone scummier but I'm interested enough to see where this goes. Next people I want to look at are Glork and MBL, not decided in which order.

[ChannelDelibird]

Sorry to disappoint.

I've read every post in the game before, skimming a bit to catch up with the actual events. I reread from the start of Day 2 until now to make that post.

[ChannelDelibird]

I am

deeply

disappointed. The Ether Schedule will take all of the pain away and make you enjoy mafia again. I am prepared to sing about it if you are unconvinced.

How come you're worried about Glork and MBL? Glork is fabulously obvtown; MBL is...probably also town as well.

Worried might not be the right word. I just think I need to look closely at them and decide how safe it is to sheep them, because they're both players whose damn near every post reads totally convincingly to me by nature. Both have made big, well-argued scum cases on a couple of people (inHim and Yos, IIRC) which made me more willing to vote said people and they're liable to do it again at some stage, so I think it's pretty important that I examine how much I can afford to trust them.

[ChannelDelibird]

Both have made big, well-argued scum cases on a couple of people (inHim and Yos, IIRC) which made me more willing to vote said people and they're liable to do it again at some stage, so I think it's pretty important that I examine how much I can afford to trust them.

You were the one who tried to persuade me to vote inHim. Repeatedly. Didn't you feel strongly that he was scum all game long?

I felt he was scummy during my initial readthrough upon replacing in and preferred it to the other Day 1 options, hence me asking you to get on the wagon then. On Day 2 he was more just somewhere to put my vote until I could get caught up, seeing as that vote was getting pretty old by that time. I'm not saying that you're the reason why I was on the inHim lynch, just that

IIRC

one of you/Glork made a big post somewhere that suggested inHim was scum that I agreed with. I'll nail my facts down when I reread you guys (today is the plan).

[ChannelDelibird]

Instinct says Glork is scum here. Will have reread on Glork done within 12 hours deciding whether or not I agree with said instinct.

[ChannelDelibird]

I'm rereading Glork at the moment, about halfway through. Basically what I'm getting so far is the usual - Glork seems entirely reasonable, even if I don't always agree with him (Shanba on day 2 is an example of this, I've seen Shanba as town from the start). The thing about Glork being a cop, though, is that at the start of Day 2, just after having got an innocent on MBL, Glork's first post of the day is asking HH why he omitted MBL from a potential-scum list. That just doesn't scan to me. There's being subtle about crumbing innocents and there's actively pointing the other way. Just doesn't seem like a cop move to me.

Unvote, vote: Glork

Still reading, though.

[ChannelDelibird]

"How is my play as scum different from my play in this game?"

Sorry I missed this before, MBL, but I don't have a good answer for you. I'm worse at meta-ing myself than I am other people, and I think this game is a very different one for me, anyway, because of the nature of the playerlist. I've made clear on several occasions in this game that I'm really bad at reading good players and so I'm far less proactive here than I normally would be as scum or as town in other games (if you really want me to I can dig around for recent games with me as either faction to support this).

It doesn't read to me like Glork's insinuating I'm scum there. Maybe I'm overreading it, but I don't see any MBL-lynch intent from Glork whatsoever D2. I see him as spotting an omission from Huck on a player Glork knows the alignment of, and wondering why Huck might make such a slip.

It kind of boggles my mind to think that as scum, Glork would so obviously set up a cop claim/result overnight (innocent on MBL N1) and very clearly telegraph it all day D2, yet somehow manage to slip up and show suspicion of MBL in his first post of the day?

I wasn't saying that Glork was insinuating you're scum in that post. But asking why you weren't on HH's scumlist is just completely not what I would expect from the first post of the day from Glorkcop with an innocent on you. Glorkcop would know that if he was killed before he could claim results, people look to things like first posts of the day for possible breadcrumbs, and it seems counterproductive to connect you to a scumlist if that's the case.

CDB, I'd like to know how you feel about all players, first off HackerHuck, Ether and Glork who you've recently mentioned. Do you want Huck to push Ether harder because you think Ether is scum, or do you think his lack of firm suspicions and/or opinions on other players is what's suspect? Note--you also lack firm suspicions and have expressed no opinions of most players.

I think HH and I are different here. I accept that I haven't given firm suspicions but HH did post what looked like a pretty firm suspicion on stark and never followed it up, which makes me think that the reason he posted it in the first place was not because he genuinely suspected stark but that he wanted to give a firm suspicion, particularly on someone who many people at the time were saying was obvtown, because it looked bold and unsheepish.

I had a very solid obvtown read on stark and Ether hasn't done anything to make me doubt that so far.

Glork I still feel is prolly scum. I don't really see both cop claims being true and I still think Glork's first post of Day 2 did not look like a cop with an innocent on you.

Also, your opinions of CES, chamber, Ythill and Poro, who you haven't mentioned.

I can't really see Ythill being anything but what he says he is at this stage. Your suggestion of a double-killing scumteam member seems pretty farfetched to me, so I see no other explanation for the extra kill.

Prozac looks like he's trying hard to give us opinions as of late but I haven't got anything on him at the moment. CES and chamber I just find pretty fucking impossible to read, always have. I'll reread all three over the weekend.

Also, your opinion of Gurgi who you haven't mentioned since calling him town December 3rd.

Still looks town to me. One of those people all of whose posts have seemed pretty reasonable, similar to you and Glork, but I've gone over the ones that have particularly influenced me, most regarding inHim, and I can't see anything wrong with them, so I have no reason to doubt my townread.

Also, why have you seen Shanba as town all game long? You never said.

I'm sorry but I haven't really got anything for you other than gut. I haven't really understood the attacks that people have made on him, and particularly the more emotional posts read very genuine to me. Never had any problems with his activity levels, either, but then I'd be a hypocrite if I did.

Scumtheory: CDB has been hiding amidst town. Joined Gurgi and Shanba on inHim. Joined Gurgi, Ythill, chamber on inHim. Joined Ether, Ythill, Gurgi on Huck. Joined Ythill and CTD on Glork. Pure sheeping, no initiative, seems to find reasons to fit the event after deciding where his vote should go.

I find it hard to read basically everyone in this game, so I've tried to judge which of the well-stated cases have the most merit. It's obviously not much but it's the best I can do. I'm trying to dig deeper and find things - I did, at least, vote HH for reasons which I don't believe had been stated previously by the others on the wagon, but I am prepared to be corrected if I'm wrong there.

[ChannelDelibird]

And I stereotype CDB as being more likely to be an unstable flake regardless of his alignment. (Hi, CDB! Prove me wrong or admit to Patrick that you can't.).

Uh, hi? I'm here and not flaking any time soon. I promised I wouldn't and I won't. Didn't realise you still saw me as on the brink of falling out of the game. (Not that I haven't earned the reputation, though.)

I'm with CES here. Glork is the strongest lynch.

[ChannelDelibird]

I got prodded. Sorry about that. It's late here now. Post coming tomorrow afternoon GMT+1.

Glork needs dead, though.

[ChannelDelibird]

Claim now.

Vanilla.

[ChannelDelibird]

Who do you think the four scum are and why? Do they fit together as scumpartners when you analyze their interactions and votes?

Glork, HH...then I'm not sure between Prozac, CES, chamber. It's probably two of those three who I still owe a reread on (yes, I'm still behind there. I'm sorry. I doubt I will be able to do that before deadline hits but I'll have reread all of them by daybreak Day 4, and if I haven't, lynch me). I'm pretty shit at vote-analysis but I'll try to include that in rereads.

As far as deadline goes, I don't see any reason why I would want to move my vote from Glork before then.

[ChannelDelibird]

Oh hey. So as some of you may have noticed I pissed my day away today assigning Pokemon to Mafiascum users rather than rereading chamber/CES/Prozac. This is now something I'm gonna have to do tomorrow.

Vote: HackerHuck

for now though.

[ChannelDelibird]

Prodded. Derp. No excuse. Still behind. Sorry. Working on it.

[ChannelDelibird]

You cruel mistress, Ether! I shall have a post containing opinions on chamber, CES and Prozac and an estimation of the scumteam before 7pm GMT tomorrow.

[ChannelDelibird]

Preview happens now.

...no? I don't have anything for you yet. This should be obvious.

[ChannelDelibird]

I refer you to this post:

Glork, HH...then I'm not sure between Prozac, CES, chamber. It's probably two of those three who I still owe a reread on (yes, I'm still behind there. I'm sorry. I doubt I will be able to do that before deadline hits but I'll have reread all of them by daybreak Day 4, and if I haven't, lynch me). I'm pretty shit at vote-analysis but I'll try to include that in rereads.

That's what I'm thinking right now.

[ChannelDelibird]

Written as I read. Due to the format of this post some points are repeated under the various subtitles, having started to write I've decided it's probably not the best format but I've started and can't be arsed to re-order things.

on chamber

Glork on Day 1: "If a UT lynch goes through and he flips town, I'd expect the wagon to be chock full of scums -- most likely two in the {Flameaxe, chamber, Mert} block, with a possible token pile-on at the end of the wagon."
Post 226 seems a little off, could be chamberscum trying to push Ythill into a trap he'd walked around
says "me and HH have the scum, everyone should follow us" in 266. If HH is scum that makes chamberscum less likely, I feel.
in 350 HH says the chamber wagon seems just random and that he doesn't like the people on it, which could be scumpartner evidence but I still get the feeling that they're probably not thanks to chamber's post above.
Glork: "URGE TO LYNCH CHAMBER: RISING". Putting this here so I can check if he ever followed up on it properly.

on CES

Flameaxe has "weird town gut read" on Glork, and a kind of token "CES is on a lot of wagons" slight scum read on CES, in post 316. That's the kind of vague one-up one-down reads scum like to give.
"Hey Yosarian, take it from me: there's no reason to be voting for chamber currently. Try voting for Ectoplascum instead."
"chamber looks slightly pro-town to me."
"2 scum groups makes sense given 18 players, but I don't believe there's anything in the rules." - This I find quite interesting, could be CES trying to take his chance to subtly push the town in the wrong direction.
Have just re-read Ecto's attack on CES late Day 1 for tailing on his wagon. It's intriguing but not damning. He then goes on to say he's not swayed by Ecto's doc claim, leaving his vote where it is.

on Prozac (aren't we all)

Glork's first proper post on Day 1: "The biggest thing I'm getting is that I don't like Flameaxe's "I agree with CTD" post. I think CTD is stretching a little bit, and flat agreement makes me groan."
also Glork on Day 1: "If a UT lynch goes through and he flips town, I'd expect the wagon to be chock full of scums -- most likely two in the {Flameaxe, chamber, Mert} block, with a possible token pile-on at the end of the wagon."
Flameaxe has "weird town gut read" on Glork, and a kind of token "CES is on a lot of wagons" slight scum read on CES, in post 316. That's the kind of vague one-up one-down reads scum like to give. Next post adds HH as slightly scum for stretching a point and pleads no read on chamber, which I sympathise with. When picked up on by inHim as having a series of vague and easily changeable reads basically retreats into his shell complaining about inHim's nitpicking. It's a pretty scummy sequence of events for Flameaxe here.
Then there's Flameaxe's initial refusal to hammer Mert - it seems pretty much equally as boneheaded as town or scum, probably still a null tell.

---------------

That's Day 1, I intend to keep going and read the rest of the game in this manner, but I am conscious of the fact that my girlfriend will be calling in the next few minutes and the end of a day seems a better place to pause than in the middle of one. I'll be right back on this as soon as that's done.

As it stands, Day 1 suggests Glork-HH-Prozac-CES to me. chamber's post about him and HH having the scum and them needing to be followed strongly reduces the chance of the two of them as buddies, I feel.

More soon.

[ChannelDelibird]

Ether, I don't suppose you'll give me my Poliwag before I finish that post, will you? I mean, I've started, so I'm definitely going to finish it.

pwease ;_;

[ChannelDelibird]

Hi, Zorblag!

Ether - fair enough, that's pretty much what I expected. (You blackmailing scoundrel! <3)

[ChannelDelibird]

OK, where was I? I really speedily skimmed the last five pages of the thread or so but I don't think there was anything of vital importance that should have gone in my list. I've pretty much made up my mind, anyway.

on chamber-Zorblag

Queries DGB's scum rating of Flameaxe on the grounds that he did eventually hammer.
Very explicitly calls out CES as one of the three or four most town players in the game. Probably makes chamber-CES less likely.
I'm not a massive fan of him continuing to push so hard on Yos at the end of day 2 considering he looked pretty town at that stage.
Glork calls chamber 100% town in 1461.

on CES

Glork calls him pretty obviously protown in 1112, not sure what to make of that.
Glork says Prozac is a better vig kill than CES - presumably prefers CES, who's not had problems keeping up with the game, alive as scumbuddy than Prozac (no offence, Prozac). Further suggests Glork-HH-Prozac-CES
Glork's 1927 does kinda look like an appeal to CES to help him out, considering the brewing HH and Prozac wagons. In fact, CES basically shutting him down and then Glork deciding to put CES on his scumlist does look rather collaborative to me.
Entertains possibility of both Glork and CTD as town in 2085
The no lynch business is a point against CES

on Prozac

Ignores pretty much everything happening to vote Ythill in post 1165
Glork says Prozac is a better vig kill than CES - presumably prefers CES, who's not had problems keeping up with the game, alive as scumbuddy than Prozac (no offence, Prozac). Further suggests Glork-HH-Prozac-CES
Glork in 1641: "Yos is guaranteed scum. Prozac is only decently likely scum". Again backs up Prozac as Glorkbuddy
I think around 1745 Glork is deciding he can get townie points for bussing Prozac
1879 makes me pause for thought, wondering whether Prozacscum would suddenly decide CESbuddy might be his top target
Vote on Glork in 2111 looks like going through the motions.

-------------------------

I pretty much discounted chamber/Zorblag as scum around early-middle Day 2, and I think there's plenty of evidence suggesting a scumteam of Glork-HH-Prozac-CES. I think CES has decided he needs to win this by himself, too.

[ChannelDelibird]

Announcing now, seeing as it's all booked and confirmed: I will be V/LA from February 6th-13th inclusive, but will have half and hour to an hour's access on a couple of those days most likely.

[ChannelDelibird]

CES, will respond to you slightly later, but quicker to answer HH now and I only have a couple of minutes.

To answer your first question HH, just reading through the thread focusing on both their posts and Glork's, as I feel there should be information about his buddies in his posts, but it wasn't specifically a Glork-filtered read.
You weren't in that analysis because I already read through you before, and I was reading specifically those three to decide which two out of them are your buddies.

[ChannelDelibird]

Glork calls him pretty obviously protown in 1112, not sure what to make of that.

Do you think he would make that up?

Well, you yourself readily admit that many skilled players have trouble reading you, so at that stage I think it would be in Glork's interests to state that he had got a read on you and that it was very positive (remember Glork was widely considered protown at that stage).

Glork says Prozac is a better vig kill than CES - presumably prefers CES, who's not had problems keeping up with the game, alive as scumbuddy than Prozac (no offence, Prozac). Further suggests Glork-HH-Prozac-CES

When did he say this? Do you think Glrok thought it likely that his advice would be followed?

This is post 1600, mid-late Day 2. DGB was advertising herself as a vig and she was heavily pro-town on Glork, so it seems reasonable to me that he would say it in case his advice was followed.

Glork's 1927 does kinda look like an appeal to CES to help him out, considering the brewing HH and Prozac wagons.

Do you think the fact that this pretty soon after day-start is relevant?

Not really, no. Why do you ask?

The no lynch business is a point against CES

Why?

No lynch was pretty obviously a bad idea considering Glork was so obviously a scumbag in that situation plus there being people like Prozac and, indeed, myself, that a whole bunch of people really wanted to see dead. Being in favour of it was not protown.

[ChannelDelibird]

This is post 1600, mid-late Day 2. DGB was advertising herself as a vig and she was heavily pro-town on Glork, so it seems reasonable to me that he would say it in case his advice was followed.

Bzzt. False. Glrok was one of her top suspects in #1231 and receives no positive mentions following that post. She also showed no signs of being willing to vig Porochaz (the pretext for Glrok's comment appears to be an inHim-post.) Furthermore, I think he's pretty much forced to hold that opinion given his previous posts and that on the whole he did very little to dissuade DGb from vigging me (contrast him with Yos for example).

OK, I stand corrected on the facts of DGB's Glorkstance. In my defence, I wasn't really paying much attention to her in that reread. I think the point stands, though, depending somewhat on whether or not Glork suspected DGB was not the true vig. I still think the fact that he was preferencing a Prozac death over yours (this is of course part of a pattern of him referring to you as obvtown) supports the theory of the three of you being buddies.

Not really, no. Why do you ask?

I would imagine that'd be the time that saw the least in-thread communication between scum buddies.

That sounds nice, but it ignores the circumstances. Pretty sure Glork was seeing two of his buddies being wagoned and turning to you.

No lynch was pretty obviously a bad idea considering Glork was so obviously a scumbag in that situation plus there being people like Prozac and, indeed, myself, that a whole bunch of people really wanted to see dead. Being in favour of it was not protown.

There was obviously resistance to the idea of lynching a claimed cop in a non-LyLo situation. In that sense I felt no-lynch was a compromise between the two camps which would've made Glrok more lynchable the next Day (note that Poro and Glrok were tied in votes at the time; before Glrok's slip, his lynch that Day was far from set in stone). How exactly is no-lynch supposed to have lead to a Porochazlynch?

I don't think I understand you here, could you rephrase? (I wasn't suggesting that a no-lynch would have lead to Prozac lynch next day, was saying that a Prozac lynch would have been obviously better than a no lynch)

You seem to be thinking that Glrok was more likely to be lynched that Day because he was.

No.

[ChannelDelibird]

I see what you're talking about re: me deciding Zorblag is town, Ether, as I wasn't noting down things that I agreed with (because in general most of the players in this game are agreeable). I think my thought processes on CES and Prozac are pretty clear though.

[ChannelDelibird]

Addendum: Anything I can explain for you?

[ChannelDelibird]

You could make a case on anyone in the format you were using; I don't really know if I'm getting your train of thought out of them. Summarize the differences; explain why Zorblag is town.

OK, I will try to rewrite those posts for clarity, probably just focusing onto why I think CES and Prozac are HH's buddies. Might have to wait 'til tomorrow, though.

As far as Zorblag goes, chamber made a lot of posts on Day 2 and I didn't find anything objectionable about any of them, but the most convincing thing for me was Post 266 (which I have just noticed was wrongly linked to 226 in my previous post, sorry about that). I don't have much of a meta on chamber personally but I don't think he'd be saying "Me and HH have the scum, everyone else should follow us" if he were HH's buddy, it's so brazen.

[ChannelDelibird]

I got prodded, sorry, have had exams today and have another tomorrow, so a little distracted.

[ChannelDelibird]

Eek, shit, I'd resolved to be more active. Elaboration/clarification on previous posts that I promised will be here tonight.

[ChannelDelibird]

Guys, I'm sorry again. Some personal stuff came up in the last day or so which has really got me down. I know I'm super fucking annoying for continually being behind and making posts like these but please take me on my word for this one at least. I probably won't be in the mood to put my head in this game tonight but I have a completely free day tomorrow and I will post as much as I can then.

[ChannelDelibird]

The things that are important from Posts 2468 and 2474:

chamber said "me and HH have the scum, everyone should follow us" in 266. If HH is scum that makes chamberscum less likely, I feel. He also very explicitly called out CES as one of the three or four most town players in the game. Probably makes chamber and CES unlikely to be buddies.

Flameaxe had a "weird town gut read" on Glork, and a kind of token "CES is on a lot of wagons" slight scum read on CES, in post 316. That's the kind of vague one-up one-down reads scum like to give their partners.

I thought CES' quote "2 scum groups makes sense given 18 players, but I don't believe there's anything in the rules." could be CES trying to take his chance to subtly push the town in the wrong direction.

Late on Day 1 CES stayed on Ecto's wagon post-claim and looking back now Ecto's tailing case on him looks more and more persuasive.

I guess the thing about Glork saying Prozac was a better vig kill than CES probably

fits

Glork-CES-Prozac more than it outright

suggests

it, but I still think it's noteworthy.

Glork said "Yos is guaranteed scum. Prozac is only decently likely scum" in 1641 which strongly suggests Prozac as Glork's buddy to me. Also Prozac's vote for Glork looked like he was just going through the motions.

-------------

I hope that removing the format of those posts helps show what I thought was important when I made them. I'm now rereading the posts since then to first respond to anything about/addressed to me.

[ChannelDelibird]

CDB's conclusions about CES, Zorblag and chamber just seem tacked on after the analyses. I don't really know what's leading him to his conclusions.

I'd already said prior to doing that post on Prozac, CES and Zorblag/chamber that I hadn't found anything from the other players in the game (excluding HH) that looked scummy to me, and so I thought it was HH and two of those three, so I was looking to find two scum from those players, it's true, but I think there are things that I picked up on that support that theory.

You weren't in that analysis because I already read through you before, and I was reading specifically those three to decide which two out of them are your buddies.

Was that read through before or after the Glork flip?

That read was before the Glork claim. Glork was the fourth person I was focussing on during my CES-Zorblag-Prozac read and in that read I didn't see anything from him that made you less likely to be his buddy.

Have you posted any of this evidence? I would like to see your evidence of a Glork-HH scumteam. I would like to see your case on HH.

My case on HH was posted here. I haven't found anything in Glork's and HH's interactions that sticks out as being buddy evidence but I haven't found anything that makes it less likely either, and so I have them down as buddies because I find HH scummy independently. The evidence for the scumteam is in Glork-Prozac-CES, and I think HH is probably part of that team too.

CDB - Chronic Lurker, same as me, pretty much, except from my point of view, I think that Im being more accessable than him. Looking at the game more as a whole, he seems to have made a load of excuses

When you say I've made a load of excuses, what's your point? I have. I obviously have. Why am I more likely to have made them as scum than as town?

I think he's likely scum. It's a little difficult to be objective since he's spent so much time focused on me, but there are a few things that bug me about him. He doesn't mention Glork until Glork starts to get a little heat from Ythill. At that point, he hedges himself a little by saying that he'll look next at Glork and MBL, but he's not sure in which order.

I gave reasons for why I was looking at them next. Do you think they were scummy reasons?

Once the claim comes through, he says that 'instinct' tells him Glork is scum.

This seems to be something people are picking up on all the time, so I'm assuming this is a misunderstanding. I was judging Glork's claim against CTD's, not suddenly revealing some deep-seated feeling I'd had about Glork that I'd been keeping quiet. I thought the two claims were pretty obviously incompatible and and so I was saying that my immediate gut judgement was that Glork's was less credible.

In half a day, he comes back to place his vote even though he hasn't really read through Glork all the way and the key to his vote is that Glork asked me why I didn't put MBL in my scum group.

How does this go against my above answer?

I also don't understand why he chose not to look at my interactions with Glork, rather relying on his earlier conclusion that I'm scum.

As I've said, I looked, just couldn't find anything to support for or against you two being buddies.

OK, reading through ChannelDelibird there is a lot of "this game is hard" and "I'm busy for now" which I dislike.

I don't like that when he votes HackerHuck Day 2 he lists as his biggest reason the fact that HackerHuck doesn't seem concerned about the fact that he's not having an impact on the game; I get the same lack of impact from Channeldelibird and don't really think he seems to feel that bad about it.

These two things don't quite fit together to me. As you say in the first quote, I

have

said a lot about how hard I've found this game and how difficult it is for me to read good players. I don't know what else I can say to make it clear how much I am frustrated by my inability to operate effectively in this game. My lurking and putting things off is pretty much entirely down to my feeling guilty for not being able to contribute as much as this game deserves. I know the two of us haven't played together very much but I'm pretty sure some of the other players here would agree that that emotional process is normal for me.

The clearing of my spot does feel pretty half-asssed and he's more certain about the scum team even before the Glork flip than I expect someone to be but many players decide such things more readily than I do.

I understand where you're coming from here - I've pretty much been happy just to have some kind of case on people in this game that I've been quite stubborn on taking it as fact. Again, as I've said before, everyone in this game is intelligent, verbose and well-spoken to the extent that most posts read town on the face to me. I'm not 100% certain on my suspects, I'm just going with what little I can find.

[ChannelDelibird]

How come you never said anything critical about Glork's play/alignment until after he was counterclaimed? You barely remarked upon him at all, and he was really pretty active. He commented on you a lot. You seemed to ignore him.

As I said in post 1993, Glork, like yourself, is a player who by nature is always pretty compelling to me, so I have trouble seeing much to criticise. Rereading him in detail to get past that surface observation was the next thing on my to-do list in my last posts before his claim, which came before I'd got round to that read. He did mention me a lot, but never really with much more than a vague "eh, viable vig target" or similar. He never gave me much to actually respond to myself, and I've understood all through my time in the game why my lurky behaviour might make people want to vig me, so I didn't see why I should question it myself. That isn't any different to my relationship with a fair few players in this game, I don't think.

[ChannelDelibird]

Hmm. Wasn't expecting that at all. HH being town doesn't really affect how I see Prozac and CES, but that does rather throw the cat amongst the pigeons. Still feeling Zorblag as town after my chamber reread and still feeling Ether as town from stark's play more than anything. Gotta think about MBL and Gurgi, I guess.

Vote: Porochaz

[ChannelDelibird]

unvote

I am a twonk.

[ChannelDelibird]

Hi, yeah, I got prodded. Sorry, I don't really have anything particularly pressing to say. I would like to kill Prozac and CES and am willing to figure out the other one later.

[ChannelDelibird]

Delibird, your thoughts?

Pretty much same as last page. CES' vote doesn't surprise me nor does it particularly worry me, at this stage I have trouble imagining a situation in which he and Prozac aren't both scum so I don't believe we're about to lose. While I understand the sentiment behind Zorblag's mention of me, I have to ask what he wants from me - I've already said why I think Prozac and CES are likely Glorkbuddies and so I would like for either one of them to be lynched.

To that end, I'm done with waiting on this.

Vote: Porochaz

[ChannelDelibird]

@ChannelDelibird, if you think that Cogito Ergo Sum and Porochaz are both scum then why on earth would you vote for the one that's not voting you of the two right now? If you're town that just increases the chance of a loss coming if you're wrong for no apparent gain that I can see.

Also, who in the game do you think is suspicious of you at this time? I think that there are more people that fit that category than there are potential scum and I'd think that if you were town that would lead to more concern about a loss being imminent.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Honestly, part of voting for Prozac over CES was because you said that was a vote you wanted to see happen, and I decided I was going to go all Killing In The Name on you. I'm pretty much equally confident on Prozac and CES both being scum. My general appraisal of the thread seems to suggest that more people are looking to lynch Prozac now than they are CES, hence the other part.

The people-who-are-suspicious-of-me list seems to be pretty much every other player in the game to varying degrees. Of course I'm aware that if that happens, we lose. What I want to do about it is lynch Prozac. I've gone out and found the two players who I think are almost certainly scum and need to get lynched, and I'm trying to answer everything asked of me.

[ChannelDelibird]

Post to acknowledge prod, don't have time now but will be back after class this evening.

[ChannelDelibird]

Post to acknowledge prod, don't have time now but will be back after class this evening.

Balls.

Still working on this (kind of busy tonight but will do my best to have something to say before I go to bed)

[ChannelDelibird]

This post made at 3am on no sleep and high stress, and is only being made because it looks like I'm not going to have computer access for the next 72 hours. Neither my head nor my heart is in this, so it is almost certainly going to suck, but clearly I need to say something.

CDB said two posts were tl;dr for him and kept him from reading on. Let's take a look:

Pfneh. I'm kind of pissed off that you don't take me on my word that certain posts are just too fucking long to bother with sometimes. And yes, as you so presciently predicted at the end of your post, a wall of dead people quotes is indeed tl;dr, but I skimmed the start and I'm pretty sure I get the idea. "ooh look the dead people who can no longer articulate their current thoughts said this therefore cdb is scum"

oh, fuck. I'm really sorry, but what a pile of crap the above paragraph is. I need to fucking sleep, and it's more important than this. I wouldn't post this but you need to know about my V/LA, but I guess that's pretty much going to make you lynch me anyway, which makes us lose the fucking gamae aaagjnasj.

Ugh. There is a slim chance I'll have some access tomorrow and I will return with a clear head if that happens but I really can't be sure if that will be possible or not. Basically just lynch prozac instead of me kthxbai goodnight

[ChannelDelibird]

Massive apologies to my fellow scumbags. I did try my best, which is probably the saddest part.

Well done, town. You deserved the win.