NY129-Mafia on Werewolf Island! (Game Over)

[Pine]

Vote: MaxKajote

I have it on good authority that Max is scum. This is 100% serious. Discuss.

P.S.: C-Worl and Nero cain are both town.

Kise's clearly town as well.

Max has confirmed himself as scum, as has lowell. I'm not playing around.

Why is nobody taking me seriously? Oh, wait... Kise. Nevermind.

Game = Broken. Requesting re-roll where I'm not a multi-shot daycop with n1 kill immunity, kthx.

If RayFrost is scum: Obvious scum fuck-up
If RayFrost is VT: Policy Lynch. Gambits like these don't deserve to live
If RayFrost IS multi-shot daycop w/ kill immunity: HAHAHAHAHA. But seriously, lynch him anyway, and if he IS, then we have our next several lynch targets guaranteed for us.

[Pine]

Forgot to actually vote.

VOTE: RayFrost

[Pine]

If RVS doesn't produce serious, then there is no point to RVS.

But seeing as others think MaxFrost was just joking, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for now and dial down the seriousness meter. I blame my other games, which are all pretty intense.

UNVOTE: MaxFrost

[Pine]

Good for you. I admit when I'm likely wrong. I took MaxFrost way too seriously.

[Pine]

Holy shit. Apparently, there are five pages. I think I read page 1 and then accidentally skipped all the way to page 5.

Umm. Yeah. I think I fail at this thread. I'm going to actually go read the 75 posts I skipped.

[Pine]

Okay, I'm actually caught up now. Coffee and time have done wonders for my hangover-addled brain. My first post was...embarrassing.

Moving on.

I'm going to hop on the C-Worl train.
1) Scumtastic. The C-Worl case has been made repeatedly, and I have little to add to what's been said so far
2) Hopefully, if Town, increased pressure will make C-Worl wake up and smell the coffee and defend himself adequately
3) Or slap some sense into him and get him to scumhunt. Either way.
4) In such a large game, a policy lynch would do the Town more good than bad.

[Pine]

Apparently, my fail knows no limits in this thread. I forgot to vote AGAIN.

VOTE: C-Worl

[Pine]

Meh. Near the beginning of practically every game I'm in I get a "Trying too hard" wagon. I over-explain. It's what I do.

[Pine]

I actually did fail to read the whole thread, dude. My vote on MaxFrost, and the reasoning accompanying, makes no sense at all when you read the whole thread.

Also, ask C-Worl, Nacho, and DH. I usually do get the "Trying too hard" bit early in the game.

[Pine]

I R scumz.

QFT

[Pine]

However, it's seemed like he's been a lot more nervous about his early-game play than he is usually, and that's giving me enough reason to push for his lynch for now.

It's because I completely failed at reading the thread, dude.

Dammit, I'm gonna have an uphill battle all game. I'd policy vote for me at this point.

[Pine]

Ehhh...to many posts...not enough time...Busy all morning tomorrow EST.

We're in EDT right now, dear.

[Pine]

Not newbTown just failTown >_<

Did you really just hop on the competing wagon started by the person you thought needed to be policy lynched at first, and only backed off when you got an overwhelmingly bad response? C-Worl's vote makes this look like bus city.

Do I look stupid enough to make a mistake that obvious? Okay, if you're thinking 'yes,' then I'd have to let it go. But no, the reason I voted for C-Worl is because, at the time, he was the only one that made real, solid sense to me. There's a couple of others that are starting to make me take a second look, but at the time, just C-Worl.

tl;dr: Why are people voting Pine and not C-Worl? Pine is a decent lynch but it hangs on one point. C-Worl needs to die for multiple reasons.

I think your "one point" was pushing the other biggest wagon in town? Because you aren't doing this at all here, right?

FOS: Shift

[Pine]

Serial Killer.

My point, Shift, is that while your biggest point against me is trying to blend into a wagon, you're pushing

both

of the biggest wagons in Town like it's your job.

[Pine]

Goddammit. I hate having to apologize.

You're right, Shift. I misread the relevant post, and only the one phrase stuck out in my mind. FOS rescinded.

[Pine]

Apologies in advance for the post length.

I've re-read the entire thread. Not much has jumped out at me that hasn't been said already by the half dozen highly active posters, so I won't rehash things that have already gotten a lot of coverage (like C-Worl) without something to add.

@Implosion: If you would still like comprehensive reasoning from me, I will be happy to provide it. PEdit: As I was writing this, C-Worl posted again, and it turns out I do have some original comments. What C-Worl is doing right now is scrambling. He's panicked and grasping at anything and everything that might be a lifeline. Instead of calmly reasoning his way out of a hole (which I regard as the proper Town response,) he's calling people on minor crap (see his lame case against Chronopie) and splitting hairs.

The two people that stuck out to me that

haven't

gotten a lot of scrutiny yet are kr0b and tclawren. I'll admit right up front, I've got nothing solid on tclawren. Read his ISO, though. Something about how he waffled with my wagon and jumped right onto C-Worl's when the wagon on me went south...it just rubs me the wrong way.

With kr0b, on the other hand, I identified the itchy feeling I got from him as soon as I got into the ISO. He holds back and waffles on the various wagons, not really seriously considering anyone else except Shift (who I now have as a Town read,) for wagon-jumping. He moves into casually defending C-Worl while trying to keep his distance. The biggest indicator is vote on Chronopie. Between Chronopie's initial post and the vote on him, there was a big gap where Chronopie didn't post at all, wherein he got singled out more and more by other people. It looks to me like kr0b held back until a viable non-wagon target presented itself and pounced, before the victim could answer other accusations against him.

UNVOTE: C-Worl

We're at L-3, this is starting to look like a game I played on another site, where we zeroed in on someone D1 to the exclusion of almost all others and speedlynched. To our credit, the guy turned out scum, but we hadn't produced any real leads at all for D2 and sat around for a while until we pretty much started an RVS all over again.

VOTE: kr0b

[Pine]

@Frost: I noticed kr0b made it onto your updated scum list. This due to my case or independent thought?

[Pine]

I don't think it has much merit, and the merit it does have is weak. Like I said, you're grasping at straws to avoid the noose. How was that not clear?

[Pine]

I'm not sold on Ray, Lowell. I've got nothing on him (discarding the RVS shenanigans,) and the fact that he's posted so much and in such volume without raising even a little bit of suspicion just strikes me as TOO clean. That said, I've been accused for the same thing while playing Town. I'm just...wary...of drinking the RayFrost kool-aid.

Nice to see someone else who got rubbed the wrong way by tclawren, and who can articulate said suspicion better than I can.

[Pine]

Also @Pine and all who may doubt Ray is town: If Ray is scum he is playing terribly. In a setup with confirmed opposing scumteams, you cannot stand out as scum. You have to appear simultaneously town-ish to not get lynched but not too town-ish to get NK-ed. And by the looks of it Ray will probably get NK-ed eventually since he is really pushing this game for the town.

Pure WIFOM. And nothing else.

[Pine]

BC you're an idiot. That's why it makes you a liability.

Ad hominem attack.

I think jindori is just inexperienced, though that could develop into a liability. The good thing about inexperience is that a large game like this fixes that problem in a hurry.

[Pine]

In fairness, C-Worl isn't just pulling that out of his ass (or Natalie Portman's.)

He's (probably) getting it from this article by JEEP.

But then again, 90% of common knowledge is crap, and the wiki is inherently obsolete.

[Pine]

@C-Worl: tclawren. Go.

[Pine]

You said one sentence, stating information that could have easily been skimmed from others' posts about him, but still have a scum read on him. Hence why I want you to expand your view.

[Pine]

Am I over-analyzing things, or do C-Worl's wall posts strike anyone else as desperately trying to earn brownie points?

[Pine]

The requested case, yes. But then you overcompensated with unprovoked walls with increasingly weak reasoning.

And the all-caps makes you look like a pre-teen.

[Pine]

T-Bone: To get the regular post number, click on the ISO post number (up in the top left corner of the post.) It's a hyperlink to the post in the full thread.

[Pine]

I can admit that I'm falling prey to a bit of tunnel vision on C-Worl, bolstered by personal dislike of him and his methods.

Regarding the question about WIFOM from tclawren: Saying "Oh, scum wouldn't do this" or "Town wouldn't do this" is always WIFOM, though perhaps our definitions differ. In a game this large, it is VERY likely that there's a Doctor, or at least some kind of protective role. It would behoove scum of -either- affiliation to be the local super-Townie, not only to gain protection, but also to deny that protection to their intended victim. Just because the WIFOM isn't obvious doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[Pine]

There is never a good reason for Town to self-vote. The only reason I can see to do it is to convince people that "scum wouldn't do that". Coupled with "only scum would hammer me right now," I'm 100% certain of C-Worl as scum now.

I would hammer, but I don't like short days. With kr0b on presumed V/LA, I want more from tclawren. I have yet to see any goodposting out of him.

UNVOTE: kr0b
VOTE: tclawren

[Pine]

What the fuck just happened?

[Pine]

UNVOTE: tclawren
VOTE: jindori

Claimed scum, I think. The last few hours of posts are hard to follow, like someone is drunk or something.

[Pine]

Who said anything about hunter? All jindori said was westside wolfpack.

[Pine]

What.

The.

Fuck.

I say we lynch one or both, just to be sure. My vote stays on jindori. I don't think he's experienced enough to pull off this kind of subterfuge, and most QTs are night-only. I just don't buy it.

[Pine]

Pine, you're looking extremely eastside wolfpack right now. I will vote you before I vote him.

...

No. My wincon demands all threats to Town be eliminated. The idea that the two wolfpacks are no threat to Town sounds like ludicrous subterfuge to me. My vote is on a claimed anti-Town role.

[Pine]

Okay, I just re-read this whole mess again, and I'm just not sure jindori has the capacity or experience for the subterfuge of trying to convince Town that eastside wolves are pro-Town. And if their objectives ARE what jindori claims, then they ARE pro-Town, and killing them is NOT required by Town wincon. Eastside as jindori claims it sounds more like a Mason group with a kill ability. Kise looks like something, but fuck if I know what. Starting to suspect I'm the only Town player. That would actually make a cool game, with a very tiny Town and numerous scum factions.

@More experienced players: Have any of you ever seen a situation with two wolf packs, one Town-neutral and one anti-Town? Because I'm actually starting to believe jindori.

UNVOTE: jindori
VOTE: tclawren

jindori is going to eventually get killed by westside wolves anyway, let's not waste a lynch on him right now. If he's still alive a day or two from now, and eastside DOES look anti-Town, then yeah. tclawren is looking more and more like scum with every post, either westside wolves or, more likely, Mafia. I say Mafia is more likely, because he seems to care more that jindori is a wolf and less that he's eastside alignment.

Apologies for the rambling explanation of reasoning. The last few hours are a clusterfuck.

[Pine]

I'm suggesting that eastside werewolves (who I'll be abbreviating to ESW now) are the third party. As jindori describes them, they're not anti-Town.

[Pine]

My mistake. Just replace east side with west side in my last post.

[Pine]

The same logic goes for saying that VTs are a threat to Town because of the lynch power.

[Pine]

Jindori is scum, that's a fact. He should be lynched. Regardless of what he "claims" his win-condition is, we all know in other for him to live, his faction has to be the last standing.

The same logic goes for saying that VTs are a threat to Town because of the lynch power.

This is not the same logic. How is this remotely in the same ballpark?

Why are you protecting him? He claimed scum. Are you telling me scum isn't a threat to the town? Or that you buy his "we're scum but not a threat to the town" claim? Or, is he just not a threat to your win condition?

If jindori's claim is true, then his faction is NOT a direct threat to Town. He claims that his wincon is to eliminate opposing wolf faction and survive. He specifically stated that killing Town was not a requirement.

But you're right. I should have said "unlimited NK vigilantes" instead of "VTs." Because if jindori can be believed (and I am starting to believe him,) then they're a neutral third-party as far as actual Town is concerned.

Plus, if their goal is to eliminate an anti-Town faction, I'm inclined to let him survive a little while and let them his side whittle down the anti-Town wolf pack.

Finally, regardless of whether jindori's faction is anti-Town, they're

definitely

anti-eastside. So I'd rather force eastside to waste a NK rather than spend a lynch on him instead of looking for one of the other myriad scum. And I'm starting to suspect that you, T-bone, are one of them. Probably eastside wolfpack.

[Pine]

How many of you are actually town?

Me, for one.

And I'd normally never "just believe" someone. Analyzing jindori's posts, his track record, and his patterns, I came to the conclusion that I didn't think jindori had the competence for artifice of that caliber. A bit condescending, perhaps, but I think it's true.

[Pine]

It's a point I made half a page and more ago, you were just too caught up in discrediting and deflecting your detractors to notice.

[Pine]

FOS: Powerrox93

for ESW or Mafia or some other third party. Probably the same alignment as SnakePlissken and/or C-Worl.

Look at ISO. Immediately jumped onto C-Worl wagon (perhaps in a bussing effort) near its end while trying to coax suspicion away from the Snake wagon, also pointed fingers at new wagons that looked like they might pick up steam. Jumped off C-Worl as soon as it looked acceptable to and onto the new train. Stated there was no reason to keep him alive when I've actually supplied several.

Powerrox93=Opportunistic=Scummy

PEdit: Also might be team with T-Bone. Makes the ESW theory stronger. T-Bone listed powerrox third on his "Town" list. Third on a list is where I usually put my "plants" when I'm scum. Too high or too low on a list and the name becomes obvious. In the middle, and it slips past notice, but can be referenced later.

[Pine]

I'm defending someone I believe to be a neutral third party.

[Pine]

@T-Bone: Read the first post in the thread. Town win condition is to "eliminate all threats to the Town". Not to eliminate all other factions. WSW, as claimed, is not direct threat to Town any more than vigilantes are. In fact, it behooves the WSWs, as described by jindori, to work

with

Town, as the ESW and Mafia are

direct

threats to their own wincon.

I'm unsurprised at you being unfamiliar with the nuances of the Town wincon.

Where the hell is my vote right now? tclawren, you get a pass for now. I'm putting it on scum I'm sure of. May switch this to C-Worl later but T-Bone needs votes.
UNVOTE: tclawren
VOTE: T-Bone

EBWOP: Looked back at 584 and realized I forgot to add a critical part of my case. The reason I feel T-Bone including powerrox is further evidence of scumbuddying is that, at that point, powerrox had contributed almost nothing, and yet made it onto a suspicious position on T-Bone's short list of Town. Frost, arguably the most probTown person in the thread, didn't make it onto the list, but someone who has posted less content than this post alone did? T-Bone and Powerrox are buddies, but I don't know what faction.

[Pine]

EBWOP: I agree with Gorilla. Faking a daykill is just dirty tactics.

[Pine]

Modkill made some of this obsolete, but other parts of it even more relevant. Remaining westside wolves, you have my sympathies at more difficult survival chances. Apologies in advance for the ramble and wallishness. Lots of content though, I promise.

I disagree with the use of the Large Normal description to rule out jindori's claim. He did not, at any time, suggest that there was a recruiting mechanic, nor an alignment-changing mechanic. jindori's use of the word "cult" to describe his alignment was likely a newbie error, as that word implies things I don't think he intended.

@Pine. Why do you continue to ignore Jindori's contradictions? I caught him in a lie. Does that quote from the Mod say that werewolves are third party? Or am I correct is saying that the mod listed werewolves and third party as two separate factions? And if you still believe him to be third party, why do you think the Mod would list things differently? Why do you think werewolves who contributed to the death of the NPC Night 0 are NOT a threat to the town? I know you're gonna defend your scumbuddy till the end and not change your mind, and that's fine with me. You can vote me all you want. You can be WRONG all you want.

No, you didn't catch him in a lie. Wolves as jindori described are two separate factions, both colored brown. I'll be honest, that's the biggest flaw in the story, but I don't find it damning. As for the NPC thing, you really should never use flavor like that as evidence or use it to make decisions with. But okay, I'll bite. According to the jindori story, the westside wolves are Town-neutral, anti-Eastside, and implicitly anti-Mafia. Mafia are anti-everyone else. Eastside are (probably) anti-everyone else. Serial Killer is the ONLY permitted Third Party in Large Normals, so it looks like we have one of those, too, who is also anti-everyone. If jindori is to be believed, it is in the Town's best interests to preserve our only (known) night kill alignment that ISN'T anti-Town. It is ALSO in the WSWs best interests to scumhunt and NK scum. Think of them as Mason-Vigilantes.

Finally, with regard to calculating the number of non-Town roles, I think there are two possible scenarios. First, a very small Town with several sizeable non-Town alignments, in which case the 1/3 rule goes out the window. Second, the 1/3 rule. 24 players means 8 or so are non-Town. Fudge it a little to make it nine, considering three non-Town alignments, and you've got an even three in each. This fits in precisely with what jindori hinted at regarding his alignment size. Add an SK and you've got a ball game. Further, using those assumptions, "less than four" doesn't make sense if there are only straight werewolves and straight Mafia. There would be at least four in each.

letting him live gives both anti-town factions an extra day.

(snip)

A Day 1 lynch of scum is always beneficial.

The first part of the quote is a tacit admission that one of the three known non-Town alignments is not anti-Town. More evidence of T-Bone as an eastside werewolf to heap onto the pile. It is also a logical fallacy. With multiple non-Town alignments, we would only be wasting a day if we mislynched AND the opposing non-Towns failed to kill him AND today would be the day we eliminated his entire side. And he isn't going anywhere. If his story sours, we can lynch him at any time.

Second part of the quote is true, which is why I look forward to a lynch of C-Worl or T-Bone today.

[Pine]

I think that kind of twist is just too clever for jindori to have made up on the spot, and there was only like half an hour from the thread starting to confirmation, so I doubt there was enough time to make up a party line during Night Zero, or even if there

was

a Night Zero.

Also, it works with this line, at least as I understand it:

New/variant roles may be included in limited number (no more than 1 in a Mini, 2 in a Large), and should be based on the usual role mechanics: Killing, Protecting, Investigating, Blocking, Voting, Enabling and Communication.

It perhaps bends the intent slightly, but doesn't break it as I read it.

PEdit: @RaudhrGarm: Did you read any of my posts? I don't think WSW are anti-Town. And we have mod-confirmation (via role reveal) of at least some of what jindori said.

[Pine]

@Eldritch Lord: Actually, it's less amazing than I thought it was when I posted it. T-Bone expressed repeatedly before that that he doubted a second werewolf faction even existed.

I don't think this changes anything significant about the case against him, as it's something an ESW (or any anti-Town scum) would have said at the time.

Re-VOTE: T-bone

Preview Edit: @NS-I have been abundantly clear about that. I defended him because I believed his claim.

@T-Bone: The quote was completely in-context. I didn't misrepresent it in the slightest, and you just did the same thing AGAIN. We KNOW there's a Mafia faction. You SHOULD have said 1+1+1=3, but you're well aware that there's only two anti-Town factions, three if you count SK.

The remainder of your post is full of flail. You're continuing to miss the whole non-Town =/= anti-Town point, you pretend I'm ignoring evidence that doesn't exist, and you actually try to misquote me. I absolutely want to lynch scum on D1. And I'm honed in on you and C-Worl.

Christ, Mafia must be having a field day with all the attention they're not getting.

[Pine]

@NS's last post, I still don't think jindori was clever enough to fabricate an entire alignment just for his defense, certainly not one that is that seamless. Nor do I think that the eastsiders would be 'named' without an opposing wolf faction.

Also, 3+3+3=9, which is within tolerance of the 1/3 rule, given multiple opposing factions. 3+3=6, which leaves scum underpowered.

[Pine]

@Eldritch Lord: Actually, it's less amazing than I thought it was when I posted it. T-Bone expressed repeatedly before that that he doubted a second werewolf faction even existed.

I never expressed that there wasn't a second werewolf faction. You sir are lying.

Yes your quote was still out of context because we were discussing hypothetical situations based on Jindori's claim of his faction vs. the other werewolves.

The remainder of my post isn't fail. You're pulling shit out of thin air. I'm not.

I said

flail

, not fail. Though there are ample amounts of that, too. Your posts are getting more and more desperate, and the straws you grasp at are less and less sturdy.

Clear instances of T-Bone insinuating that a second wolf alignment didn't exist, spoilered because it is barely relevant except to disprove the "liar" deflection:

Spoiler:

i'm third party not scum

Brown:

Werewolves

Purple: Third Party

Scum says what? According to the Mod, you can't be a werewolf and third party. Otherwise why would he posted like this? Is your role PM color purple or brown?

Fixed quote tags.

Dead:

Tour Guide, NPC Tour Guide,

Torn to Shreds

and Shot Night 0!

Werewolves tear people to shreds right? and this NPC was a representative of the town right? And you're telling me Pine, that all this screams NON-THREAT to you?

I mean I can't spell this out any easier. Jindori claimed werewolf. And he claimed third party. According to the Mod...

Red: Mafia

Brown: Werewolves

Purple: Third Party

Green: Town

Blue: NPC

Silver: Modkilled Neutral Survivor

That's not possible.

Now, my apologies to everyone else. I realize I've been arguing with scum, and I've been over generalizing with my accusations, since most players haven't posted since Jindori claimed scum.

@Pine. Why do you continue to ignore Jindori's contradictions? I caught him in a lie. Does that quote from the Mod say that werewolves are third party? Or am I correct is saying that the mod listed werewolves and third party as two separate factions?

Non-relevant parts of wall snipped.

I know I said I wasn't gonna post, but I was figuring you'd say higher numbers like 5 or 6.

For the sake of argument lets say both factions have 4. Sound like a fair guess?

Out of 23 players, the opposing faction consists of 4 players that are scum. You said your faction is town-like. So 19 players are town and 4 are scum. Does that seem reasonable to you? (Yes I know I'm metagaming a little bit) Somewhere on the wiki I read that anti-town should be 25% to 33% of the total player base. 4 out of 23 is only 17%. But, 8 out of 23 is 34%. That's if we consider your faction to be anti-town. Which sounds more reasonable? Or do you have reason to believe there's another faction that you are not after? By your admission your faction is Brown, meaning you'd have to be hunting the Red faction.

Now I'm not going to be quick to deny your claim, because you just said you think the other faction can recruit. Do you know this as fact or are you basing that on your own faction? I would think as werewolves, you could recruit.

@ gorilla. What were your doubts before? Maybe those should be addressed if others feel the same way.

Clearly expresses belief in only two anti-Town factions.

[Pine]

People voting and pointing fingers without reading the thread is really starting to annoy me. I don't mind votes on me, and I don't mind being mislynched if it's well-reasoned and gives Town good information, but there are several people who are blithely skimming and not paying attention. And for all the effort I've put in, it pisses me off.

And yet again, C-Worl uses bad reasoning to attack the biggest wagon in town as soon as there is a chance that his wagon won't go through. His last post has several fallacies, most notably that non-Town = anti-Town.

[Pine]

For at LEAST the third or fourth time, I do NOT believe jindori just because he said so. I believe him because his claim was entirely too complex and specific, and I don't believe jindori, the player, was clever enough nor competent enough to bluff that. DH, on the other hand, I believe is EXACTLY that cunning and devious.

[Pine]

No it isn't.

[Pine]

Well shit. Looks like I was just plain

wrong

.

UNVOTE: T-Bone

I need to re-evaluate things.

[Pine]

Wait, that doesn't actually rule out a Town-neutral party. Still need to re-evaluate, but unvote stands for nkw

[Pine]

Summaries without posting much new information are fantastic ways for scum to make it look like they're contributing without actually helping. The fact that the recounting of several pages is somewhat biased and retold in the manner that best serves C-Worl Doesnt help. Taking advantage of the fact that some (lazy) players will skim the last few pages but read his version of what happened makes it downright scummy.

-9000 town points to Raud for supporting the scum tactic.

VOTE: C-Worl Still a good lynch. Parking it here until I make up my mind about T-Bone after full reread.

[Pine]

@EL: Your support wasn't unconditional, and you sensibly pointed out that it was a summary and didn't actually answer any questions. Raud practically creamed his pants, his support was so effusive.

[Pine]

@Mod

: Once and for all, according to your understanding of the Normal game parameters, would the Town-neutral wolf pack adhere to the rules alongside two anti-Town scum groups?

Like I said, in any Normal

at maximum

, there can be two anti-town factions and a serial killer in one game; one anti-town faction with at least 2 players in it

at minimum

, and anything in between. Nothing else is allowed in a Normal game.

[Pine]

Bah. At this point, I'm willing to admit that I likely just under-estimated jindori, or that he was just spouting bullshit and I connected dots that didn't exist, and he gladly went with it.

Meh.

Either way, wagons ho on C-Worl. Nothing's really changed about him since he was at L-1.

[Pine]

Actually, it's been more-or-less proven that there's only two scum groups, implosion. As much as I hate to admit to being duped, it makes most sense to proceed at this time assuming West Side Werewolves (WSW) and East Side Mafia (ESM).

C-Worl is not Town. Case against Frost is starting to make some sense. Frost's reaction to it will play an important role in my decision on him.

Since implosion brought it up, I see an alternative that fits for the number of scum. 3+3+1, if we're counting SK, = 7. 7 is a nice happy medium between 25% scum (6 total) and 33% (8 total).

[Pine]

I think he may be referring to the fact that there are different Town protective roles for defending against wolves and Mafia.

[Pine]

He wouldn't. It's like saying "Don't worry, there's a Doctor." In a game this size, a protective power role or two is a reasonable guess.

[Pine]

Except that C-Worl didn't actually do any scumhunting or add original thought in 682.

C-Worl, I'll meet your challenge when you meet mine. Point me to any original thought or scumhunting in 682.

[Pine]

EBWOP: I find people who read summaries instead of actually catching up and making up their own damn minds incredibly lazy, bordering on scummy.

[Pine]

What about that post was useful, then, except as a tool to help people who want to actively lurk and not participte fully?

Summary without analysis (which you have largely not provided, even in subsequent responses) is useless. Worse than useless, because it makes people think you're helping without actually doing so.

[Pine]

It tells the story you want it to tell. Notably, it only tells about four or five of those thirty pages, and its the four or five that you and your buddies weren't acting scummy on. Highlighting the antics of others while remaining silent on your own antics. You're using it as a sophisticated form of deflection.

And if people signed up for a large game, they signed up to play. Don't make excuses for them. If they're not up to a large game, they should replace out.

Still waiting for anything resembling analysis.

[Pine]

It tells the story you want it to tell. Notably, it only tells about four or five of those thirty pages,

and its the four or five that you and your buddies weren't acting scummy on

. Highlighting the antics of others while remaining silent on your own antics. You're using it as a sophisticated form of deflection.

And if people signed up for a large game, they signed up to play. Don't make excuses for them. If they're not up to a large game, they should replace out.

Still waiting for anything resembling analysis.

Example?

Example? Of what? You only summarizing four or five pages that you mostly weren't involved with? You entire post is an example of that. Or trying to take credit for 30 pages of productivity? How about this:

Maybe, it'll give the lurkers a reason to participate bc seeing 30 pages of thread might be a little intimidating but a summary based on one confirmed antitown might be a little helpful. It's also a reference for me. If I want to know if so and so played the newb card on Jin, instead of reading 30 pages I can just go back to my summary. My question is, you called it bias, so once again, "How is it bias?"

Twice in one post you reference "30 pages" and immediately refer back to your summary as a helpful guide. Except your summary only covers 1/6 of those pages, and only the pages in which you're mostly silent. I said it before, and I'll say it again. Your summary was and is a sophisticated deflection tactic, designed to take pressure off of you as people re-evaluate their votes and put it entirely onto the ten or so active posters during that period, while also telling the story of that period the way you'd like it told to the people in this thread that are too lazy to read it themselves.

Okay so he ignored the question for 3 and a half hours and his last post on the boards was 40 minutes after I asked this question. So, basically Pine doesn't have an example. He's just trying, searching, reaching, probing for anything he can say to get me lynched. Which for the most part confirms (to me at least) that he is scum.

Nervous scum is nervous. If I go down to bring this scum with me, I'll count it a win for Town.

[Pine]

unvote

As a courtesy. I'm not wagoning a player while they're still catching up on the thread, especially when I first voted to see how rayfrost would respond. The way the votes are piling up seems opportunistic (I hate that term, but really, piling votes on a player who's not here to defend, what else can you call it?)

Also, people giving C-Worl town points for making a summary post are either stupid or scum. Making a post like that offers no real risk to the person making it (scum want to avoid risks) and doesn't actually help with finding mafia? If you find the information useful, fine, but saying it's an "omg sooper town" move is just flat-out wrong.

Call it meta, but your lack of willingness to commit to a wagon, combined with your inability to pick up on things we've previously agreed are universal scumtells coming from C-Worl's defense makes me think something is off about you this game.

Also not in character for you is that you've posted very little content yourself. You know in poker a lot of players make the mistake of looking for their own tells, I hope that isn't what you're doing by criticizing C-Worl's summary post as a 'lack of contribution'.

For now,

FoS: gorilla

QFT

[Pine]

nobody seems to have pointed out yet how krob is horribly obv non-town (most probably third party)

This post. Mentioned a few times elsewhere, too. Suspicion of kr0b only trailed off because he appears to be flaking due to connection issues, and because more obvious things presented themselves.

[Pine]

Forgot to link.

This post

[Pine]

2- Why would scum bother

wasting time

summarising events and not trying to get a wagon going?

If you re-read that, you'll find the bolded part helps to explain. Also, it helps scum look busy and has the appearance of goodposting, while not actually providing any leads or producing new information. It is also good, apparently, for duping people into defending you.

And C-Worl has hardly been a slouch at attempting to get wagons started. He just didn't in that post.

[Pine]

And BTW, I like C-Worl as town for his behavior BEFORE jindori got outed as wolf.

WHAT pro-Town behavior? He was at L-1 for anti-Town and massively scummy behavior at the time

PGO in a normal game loloololksure.... AND I WILL THRASH YOU SO WE'LL SEE WHOS GOTA GUN

MAFIA PEOPLE
DONT ROLEBLOCK ME
IM GOING IN TONIGHT

UNVOTE; VOTE": SNAKE

Or, instead of roleblocking you, RF/Reckamonic's scumbuddies could just kill you and make it look like the PGO happened. Alternatively, you could do nothing, not get hit by PGO, and then claim on D2 that because you didn't get killed by PGO, it must have been a fakeclaim.

Scummy posts are full of scum.

UNVOTE: C-Worl
VOTE: Kise
C-Worl, you aren't off the hook by a long shot. Let's see where this goes.

[Pine]

So, you're pulling up an early vote count that was largely rescinded, based on a stupid mistake, and probably scum-driven...in an effort to discredit someone that caught you in scummy behavior...all while insisting that a much larger, better-reasoned wagon is foolish without providing a good reason or any examples of pro-Town behavior by that person.

I'd double-vote if I could.

[Pine]

Kise, don't let my join date fool you. I

am

a veteran player elsewhere, and I

do

think I've got you cold.

This last post is a shameless attempt to wrongly associate C-Worl with my innocence and discredit my reads as those of a novice at the same time.

Finally, @ this statement: "if you're the expert on what's town and anti-town, then you should have done better than to get 9 votes piled on you with 5 votes essentially parked on you for many votecounts later." Yes. I acknowledged a long, long time ago that I royally fucked up in the first few pages. Nearly everyone has moved on and accepted that for the simple mistake it was. The parked votes almost all belonged to people whose activity level could be compared to moldy bread. And comparing that wagon to C-Worl's is laughable. Mine lasted for a page or two, spanning a day, day and a half maybe. C-Worl's is far more expansive, has lasted literally the entire game, and still has strong support. Try again.

[Pine]

I'm finding new ways every day to apply what I learned in 7 years of live play to this format. Live games are

not

all about body language, facial expression, voice analysis, and gut reads, though those things do play a strong role. A lot of the skills regarded as secondary, such as voting analysis, pattern recognition, and logic traps transfer wholly and get upgraded to primary skills. And most of the people skills of live play get adapted. Voice analysis is replaced by text analysis, body language becomes the tone of your post, and facial expressions becomes analysis of reaction.

And your reactions, sir, I find to be remarkably suspicious. Very akin to when, in live play, a Mafioso thinks he's flying under the radar, and suddenly gets accusation thrown at him. You just "winced", strengthening my suspicion.

[Pine]

Reckamonic are you a hydra? I think it was asked a few pages ago, but I don't recall an answer.

[Pine]

@C-Worl: I admit to having been wrong about the amount your summary covered. When I wrote the relevant post, the section on jindori's clusterfuck stuck out most in my mind. Your post is still devoid of content, and the amount you're fixated on justifying it as legitimate, rather than providing actual content, is disturbing.

First, Unvote: Kise, I'm still not sold on his townie-ness

<snip>

This suggests that Kise has some knowledge of a watcher in this game. And I don't think he's a town watcher.

Kise: see above. Also he'll probably die soon so...

Holy crap, scum tell. I was leaning scum before, but now I'm damn-near certain. Self-contradiction and rolefishing in one go.

UNVOTE: Kise
VOTE: tclawren

Pro-Kise posts aren't enough to completely satisfy me, but I'm less sure about him now than I am about tclawren and C-Worl. Either are good lynches.

[Pine]

You disproved a tiny fraction of a huge case. And the point is that you're treating that one thing as completely vindicating you.

And your summary being devoid of content is NOT debatable.

And follow it up with a vote without independent reasoning or even an attempt at giving a nod to the reasoning that came before it. Of course. Bus away. Or are the two of you on different scum teams?

@TC: Your waffly unvote, followed by your apparent certainty that Kise isn't Town is quite contradictory. And you failed to answer for the rolefishing or other points.

[Pine]

Oh. Promised to advertise for this game in sign-ups. Looks fun, need a couple more people.

[Pine]

Goddamnit. You need to stop making valid points. It's actually shaking my ironclad conviction against you. Slightly.

[Pine]

There is no reason why any town aligned person would want to lynch this person today. Maybe tomorrow, but definitely not today.

Do I think he's town? Not really. Do I think it's worth the risk? Not a chance in hell.

Several reasons have been given for Kise's lynch. I provided some myself. "No town aligned person" etc is a fallacy. Town should ALWAYS try to lynch who they think is scum.

And the contradiction is present AGAIN in that quote. "I don't think he's Town. Further, I think he's an anti-Town PR. But we shouldn't lynch him. So he has a chance to 'prove' RF/Reck as scum."

[Pine]

I think you are confused about how a PGO works. If Reck is a PGO (and I do believe that he is) and Kise visits him, then Kise is dead. I also do not think that it is good for a town to kill a claimed pr day one of

any

mafia game, even if he is playing scummy. Especially in a large game like this. Call it a difference in theory, but it sure isn't a freaking contradiction.

Alternatively, scum-Kise could just do nothing and claim on D2 to have visited him, causing us to lynch Reck on D2. If Reck is PGO and Kise Town, we lose a Town PR. If Reck is scum and Kise is Town, he just outed himself needlessly, and will get NKed by scum to support Reck's story. THERE IS NO REASON FOR KISE TO DO THAT UNLESS HE IS SCUM.

I already stated all of this in the evidence against Kise. To be fair, though, I'd forgotten a little how certain I was about Kise, and recounting it helped me remember. I'd been swayed a little by pro-Kise posts.

Scum to lynch: Kise, tclawren, C-Worl.

[Pine]

Roles which are explicitly Non-Normal include:
Non-Sane Cops, Blanks/Quacks, Janitor, Survivor,

Lyncher

, Cultist, Jester, Scum Masons, Bus Driver, Lightning Rod, Nexus, Redirector.

No. It's just that you're scum.

[Pine]

I pointed that out a long time ago, C-Worl.

[Pine]

But...I lose brain cells when I read your posts all the way through.

[Pine]

Good luck, DH.

Probably just a typo, but I'd like EL to address this contradiction:

Snake is posting horribly and doesn't seem town, but jindori was so willing to vote him which makes me hesitate.

This alone is enough for me to be

uncomfortable lynching Snake

. He does seem anti-town, and its possible he simply wasn't part of jindori's faction though, so:
Vote: SnakePlissken

Emphasis is mine.

[Pine]

I concur.

Not voting - 6 (Charlie, Nachomamma8, Shift, Seraphim, Powerrox93, Lucresia)

With the obvious exception of Seraphim, I want to see something productive from all of these. None have been very useful at all this game (except Shift, and not for a long time in his case.)

[Pine]

Hrm. I've never been a fan of the Snake lynch, but never had much in the way of objections, either. Could somebody put together a cohesive case, so I can make a decent judgment?

[Pine]

Care to elaborate, Nero Cain? I haven't really been paying attention to Snake, what with focusing on Kise, tclawren, C-worl, and the other obvscum. So from my perspective, it has sounded almost like a case assembled against someone who's been V/LA for most of the game based on a few scummy comments in the early game. But like I said, I haven't personally paid much attention to the case. None of my lynches seem to be going through this time, but there's gotta be enough scum in this game that some of those I haven't considered have slipped past. So please. Enlighten me instead of mocking. I'm open to persuasion.

[Pine]

That's my concern. Snake is a

remarkably

easy target, and one who can't (or won't?) defend himself right now. So I'm a little wary of the rush to get a lynch of him.

[Pine]

No. Strictly barred.

[Pine]

ATE? I've done nothing of the kind. I am not averse to lynching lurkers, but after reviewing his ISO, it seems like that one post is the only actual scummy thing he's done. And considering that this is a very prolific thread, and he's been V/LA for most of D1, I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt until D2 to get off of V/LA and caught up. Call it fence-sitting, if using such a loaded term for "judicious prudence" seems best to you, but I'm not going to vote for someone's D1 lynch based on poor activity and one genuinely scummy post.

[Pine]

@C-Worl: Being on V/LA and mostly absent during D1 isn't enough to warrant a policy lynch in my book. If sustained through D2, then we'll talk.

[Pine]

T-Bone, that would require us to let the lurker survive all the way to LyLo. I didn't suggest that. I have no idea why -you- did in that other game. But if someone claims V/LA, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt for D1. Like I said, if it continues, then yeah. It'll earn a lynch.

As for ISO 1, 4, 5, and 7, yes. They amount to a slight scumread. But smaller than several of the other people in this thread. Votes on Kise, tclawren, C-Worl, or NS > Snake.

[Pine]

@Nacho: I would never, ever stick my neck out that far for a scumbuddy. Ever ever ever. Not even for the WIFOM. And really, basing your pointed fingers on jindori...you can do better. Much better.

I'd like your opinion on my suspicions. Specifically Kise, tclawren, and C-Worl.

[Pine]

@SNAKE: You are getting off V/LA today. If you do not post a sufficient defense of yourself plus some reads about this game by tomorrow night, We'll say 11:00 pm EDT, you are dead to me. This game needs to move and it has died since you left.

This is a reasonable post, even if it does come from obvscum.

[Pine]

ISO 4 is the only one of the bunch that registered even a little blip with me by itself. The three lesser ones are completely null by themselves, and even then don't add much to #4. All together, sure. Slight scumread. Not even close to enough to spend the D1 lynch on.

Come on, Nero Cain. You're purportedly better than mischaracterizing me as one who appeals to emotion (I fight my own battles, thank you very much) and pointing to a minute irregularity as some kind of scum slip. You're reaching. And reaching long.

Raud, you've got a lot of cajones to say that when, as far as I can tell, you've done jack all game. C-Worl is actually the most credible of the three, and really only as scum trying to point somewhere, anywhere.

[Pine]

Nah, see, this post:

*raises hand*

...is blatant sheeping, without even the balls to throw down a vote.

While this...

Raud, you've got a lot of cajones to say that when, as far as I can tell, you've done jack all game. C-Worl is actually the most credible of the three, and really only as scum trying to point somewhere, anywhere.

...are both

completely

consistent with what I've said in the past,

and

is fully independent thought. Specifically concerning you, you are apt to grasp at anything that even looks like it floats when you're drowning. And with the NS wagon stalled and the Snake wagon starting to falter, you're looking good, or a D2 candidate at least.

[Pine]

I was talking to C-Worl. That was in no way unclear, Raud.

[Pine]

My vote is useless sitting on tclawren. I don't like either of the big wagons, C-Worl looks as good as he always has.

UNVOTE: tclawren
VOTE: C-Worl

[Pine]

Sorry, singersinger, you really ought to read the full thread.

[Pine]

A whole bunch of Replacements is not helping me after coming back from a V/LA... In a way being lynched at this point almost seems like a relief.

After all the effort I've expended trying to give you a chance to redeem yourself?

This post works against Town wincon and is a blatant appeal to emotion or sympathy.

Come back with a real post.

[Pine]

Hammer

[Pine]

Raise your hand if you see it.

I see it. Noted for the future. Pine's still a townread overall, but not as strongly.

The other two that raised thier hand are C-worl and Ruad. Pine got fussy with both Ruad and C-worl but

nothing

about Imp.

Wanna explain this, Pine?

C-Worl is scum and Raud has been useless and a slight scumread. Implosion has been goodposting, so I just let it pass. It wasn't even remotely as significant or noteworthy as you seem to think it was, and I'm not obsessing over it.

[Pine]

Alternatively, scum-Kise could just do nothing and claim on D2 to have visited him, causing us to lynch Reck on D2. If Reck is PGO and Kise Town, we lose a Town PR. If Reck is scum and Kise is Town, he just outed himself needlessly, and will get NKed by scum to support Reck's story.

THERE IS NO REASON FOR KISE TO DO THAT UNLESS HE IS SCUM.

What say you, Kise?

Can't answer that right now. Just be content that I'm gonna do wtf I want

with my gun

.

You all can go by what happens over night. Save the theories for D2.

I noticed a few scums outed themselves here and there. I'm fine with my vote though. It's about time the real scum were put under fire.

New bolding is mine.

Kise is the lynch here. The fact that he's avoiding talking about his planned night actions against Reckamonic, even with TC's prompting, is damning.

VOTE: Kise

PE: Ninja'd, somewhat.

[Pine]

Raud is a good candidate for suspicion, I've said so consistently all game.

Kise is a better place for your vote, though. I'll take practically-confirmed scum over probscum.

[Pine]

Share it with us.

[Pine]

I admit that your scenario is possible. I thought of it myself, actually, well before you mentioned the possibility of a roleblock. However, it still does not address why Kise would possibly have thought claiming was a good idea.

Alternatively, scum-Kise could just do nothing and claim on D2 to have visited him, causing us to lynch Reck on D2. If Reck is PGO and Kise Town, we lose a Town PR. If Reck is scum and Kise is Town, he just outed himself needlessly, and will get NKed by scum to support Reck's story. THERE IS NO REASON FOR KISE TO DO THAT UNLESS HE IS SCUM.

Replaced "NKed by scum to support Reck's story." with "Roleblocked by scum to support Reck's story and achieve a mislynch."

It remains anti-Town for Kise to have outed himself. See, if he'd read that (which was posted what? Two weeks ago now?) and said "Oh crap, you're right, I screwed up," then I might believe that it was simply a blunder. He didn't. His plan for getting past the scumslip is to ignore it no matter how often it is brought up, and divert as much attention onto the scummiest of his detractors.

[Pine]

tclawren

- His two posts on page four (88 and 92) both go after low-hanging fruit. First a newbie, then a switch to someone who showed up just long enough to RV. Why pretend these are real reasons when clearly it's just him messing around.

<snip>

Digging a little deep for this vote, maybe, but let's see if I can't start something interesting before I jump on c-worl-wagon like a sheep.

vote tclawren

This is the entirety of your case against tclawren. All of your other posts are fluff, half-heartedly go after the big wagons, or just hammer home the idea of TC as scum without providing additional reasoning.

While I agree that he has been acting scummy this game (and have several times gone after him), I begin to suspect you to be on the opposing scum team. Your rabid pursuit of TC without any kind of real case is inexplicable from a Townie.

FOS

: Lowell

[Pine]

EBWOP: I suggest everyone ISO Lowell and see the truth of what I just said for yourselves.

[Pine]

@Kise: I want a full claim and your actions last night now.

Vote: tclawren

I want you lynched by page 44.

@guy: yeah, I said I wouldn't bother with jin because he claimed that he just needed to kill the eastsiders. I figured if he was absent-minded enough to believe my fake kill, he probably wouldn't lie in the same sentence that he claimed werewolf. It wasn't until AFTER he flipped goon that I realized he was anti-town.......@other guy/guys:

why do you feel it's important for me to out my role? If Reckamonic is still alive, that should tell you enough.

You know, I saw this, but missed the significance of it the first time.

Not only is Kise scum for not having through with his plan to test Reckamonic, but also his contradictory words and vote. Read his last couple of lines again (I've bolded them for you) and then read his first quote.

Kise fucked up and scumslipped, and is trying to avoid the rap for is by getting someone else lynched today.

This would be big townpoints for tclawren, but there are multiple scum factions, so it earns him nothing.

[Pine]

[Pine]

^This post contradicts itself. He is clearly throwing WIFOM and dirtying peoples' names as much as possible.

[Pine]

Rolefishing too. Hrm. I missed that.

I also missed that my vote was still on Kise. Thought I'd switched it with the cheetah pic.

UNVOTE: Kise
VOTE: Raud

For the record, I'm still suspicious of Kise, and I still don't think there was a good pro-Town reason for his whole "I'm going to target Reck tonight" thing, he may have just not thought it all the way through or gotten roleblocked.

[Pine]

Dude, I've expressed suspicion of you since way before it was cool. You're going to have a hard time painting my vote for you as sheeping or opportunism. You've been in my top five practically the whole game, and have recently risen through those ranks.

[Pine]

Yeah, I've been in yours

and

Reck's very quickly, with no support until tclaw posted a weak 'contradiction' that quite a few have surprisingly sheeped on. I also note that you do not care for my claim that the Village is in trouble if this lynch goes through.

Below find all of the places I expressed suspicion of you prior to the wagon, Raud. Care to mis-paint me as opportunistic some more?

Summaries without posting much new information are fantastic ways for scum to make it look like they're contributing without actually helping. The fact that the recounting of several pages is somewhat biased and retold in the manner that best serves C-Worl Doesnt help. Taking advantage of the fact that some (lazy) players will skim the last few pages but read his version of what happened makes it downright scummy.

-9000 town points to Raud for supporting the scum tactic.

VOTE: C-Worl Still a good lynch. Parking it here until I make up my mind about T-Bone after full reread.

ISO 4 is the only one of the bunch that registered even a little blip with me by itself. The three lesser ones are completely null by themselves, and even then don't add much to #4. All together, sure. Slight scumread. Not even close to enough to spend the D1 lynch on.

Come on, Nero Cain. You're purportedly better than mischaracterizing me as one who appeals to emotion (I fight my own battles, thank you very much) and pointing to a minute irregularity as some kind of scum slip. You're reaching. And reaching long.

Raud, you've got a lot of cajones to say that when, as far as I can tell, you've done jack all game. C-Worl is actually the most credible of the three, and really only as scum trying to point somewhere, anywhere.

Raise your hand if you see it.

I see it. Noted for the future. Pine's still a townread overall, but not as strongly.

The other two that raised thier hand are C-worl and Ruad. Pine got fussy with both Ruad and C-worl but

nothing

about Imp.

Wanna explain this, Pine?

C-Worl is scum and Raud has been useless and a slight scumread. Implosion has been goodposting, so I just let it pass. It wasn't even remotely as significant or noteworthy as you seem to think it was, and I'm not obsessing over it.

Raud is a good candidate for suspicion, I've said so consistently all game.

Kise is a better place for your vote, though. I'll take practically-confirmed scum over probscum.

[Pine]

Rapid-fire posting with poor reasoning, insisting Town will lose if you get lynched when we plainly have a number of mislynches left before we're in dire trouble, appeals to emotion, desperation...



Scum flail.

[Pine]

Claim, please, Raud.

[Pine]

And the twist is?

[Pine]

Hush, scum.

[Pine]

Okay, hold up. That actually sounds...believable. And I can't stand that I'm saying that.

UNVOTE: Raud (For now)

Any counterclaims?

I will not believe that there is no vigilante in this game, so we can either confirm Raud or confirm a scum in the {Raud, Counterclaimant} set. Either are acceptable.

VOTE: C-Worl

Frantically pushing this lynch in light of a plausible claim that we can perhaps prove or disprove is really, really scummy, and that's on top of numerous other reasons I've stated for you as scum.

[Pine]

If there are no vig counterclaims, I'm inclined to believe it. Vig makes SENSE in this game

[Pine]

Okay, no CCs and it's been almost a full day with most people posting.

That says that Raud is either scum or the SK.

VOTE: Raud

[Pine]

Okay, no CCs and it's been almost a full day with most people posting.

That says that Raud is either scum or the SK.

VOTE: Raud

This post was not thought through very well. Tired at the end of the work day, posting from my phone.

Lack of CC makes the vig claim

more

likely, not

less

likely.

UNVOTE: Raud
VOTE: C-Worl

Always a good place to put my vote. I've played with C-Worl enough to recognize his Town meta. This is not it. He makes bad cases and sticks to them as Town, and he's playing far too opportunistic for him to be Town this game.

[Pine]

Okay, no CCs and it's been almost a full day with most people posting.

That says that Raud is either scum or the SK.

VOTE: Raud

This post was not thought through very well. Tired at the end of the work day, posting from my phone.

Lack of CC makes the vig claim

more

likely, not

less

likely.

UNVOTE: Raud
VOTE: C-Worl

Always a good place to put my vote. I've played with C-Worl enough to recognize his Town meta. This is not it. He makes bad cases and sticks to them as Town, and he's playing far too opportunistic for him to be Town this game.

You didn't read this post, did you, Kise? I corrected myself long before you did.

[Pine]

Strong suspicion is hard to change that quickly. I was SO CERTAIN of Raud that I was hoping he'd be CCed. Yes, I made a mistake, but I corrected myself. If it were a scumslip, I'd have just let it go and hoped no one noticed the contradiction.

[Pine]

@T-Bone: Yeah, except for voting for someone you think is Town when they're the biggest wagon. Not a mistake I'm willing to stick with.

@TC: You make a good point
I need to re-think this.

[Pine]

No. That just made the decision for me. I was on the fence, still unsure what to believe about you, Raud, but up and labeling yourself "confirmed pro-town"? That is NOT what actual pro-Town do. It's what you do when you desire the perception of Towniness.

VOTE: Raud

[Pine]

I want someone willing to critically examine his vote, someone who generally doesn't fall prey to tunnel vision, and rationally consider all aspects of the cases presented.

In your case, there is a veritable mountain of evidence against you, balanced by a single large doubt, one produced by your un-CCed claim. I tend to listen to big doubts. Your behavior since you briefly gained my support was enough to assuage that doubt, and turning on one of your only advocates seals that certainty.

[Pine]

Besides, I don't anticipate making it to LyLo. The mafia or wolves, whichever team C-Worl is a part of, is likely to silence me either this coming night or the one after.

[Pine]

No, quadz, suspecting a supporter is not a scumtell. But when I initially suspected Raud, he took every opportunity to snipe at me, threaten to vig me, and call me scum. But during the period of my support for him, this antipathy went suddenly silent. Now, immediately after I have decided to trust my first instincts, the vehemence against me returns in greater force. And THAT is scummy. Basing your supposed reads on whether or not they support you smacks of scum in this context.

Kise, you're guilty of the same thing. For quite some time, I'm practically the only one who has expressed any suspicion of you at all. Your attacks are damn near ad hominem, seeking to discredit me rather than my arguments.

[Pine]

Oh hey, three of the scummiest players in the thread.

[Pine]

Oh hey, three of the scummiest players in the thread.

Oh hey,

you're an idiot.

Like this.

I'd like an explanation.

[Pine]

I've been riding the "uncertain" line in the middle of those two options, quad, but I made my decision last night. I don't feel Raud is trustworthy enough, and want to see him lynched.

[Pine]

I need to do a re-read. EL's flip especially will probably prove enlightening.

[Pine]

I did what?

I'm playing with most of the people in this thread elsewhere, and I think I've started to get my reads crossed. I need a reread, with the recent flips in mind, to get reoriented and re-evaluate my positions.

[Pine]

Yeah. Most of the way through D1 of my re-read, and I'm remembering every little scummy thing that C-Worl did on D1 to get put to L-1. If he flips scum, I'd like everyone to take another serious look at Kise; it was Kise's gambit on jindori that derailed the wagon on C-Worl in the first place.

VOTE: C-Worl

[Pine]

MrZepher, I've been after C-Worl all game. Like, literally since the first couple of pages. This is nothing new, and certainly isn't just some opportunistic wagon-jump.

[Pine]

^Care to explain to the rest of us? If you're referring to a legitimate reason not to suspect C-Worl, then by all means, it would be pro-Town to share it.

If instead you're referring to hidden motives with a code devised during the night, by all means explain that too.

[Pine]

An explanation would be nice. Out of either of you. Obvious code makes me nervous.

[Pine]

@Implosion: "Nervous" in this context = Edgy, wary, suspicious, paranoid, out of the loop...all the normal emotions when people aren't even bothering to hide the fact that they're communicating in a way you can't understand. Imagine people talking in a language you don't know while looking right at you. There's clearly some kind of plan, plot, or code going on between the two of them, and the fact that they refuse to explain makes it anti-Town.

[Pine]

UNVOTE: C-Worl
VOTE: Kise

Keeping secrets from Town is blatantly anti-Town.

[Pine]

That why don't YOU explain?

[Pine]

Goddamnit you bastards I don't get it >_<

[Pine]

Whatever.

UNVOTE: Kise
VOTE: tclawren

Consistently scummy since D1.

[Pine]

Someone summarize the tclawren case in

less than twenty words

. Links to posts are allowed.

This comes off as a deliberate attempt to get someone to oversimplify. In a 58-page thread, a reasonable case is going to require more than twenty words.

[Pine]

It took 16 and a half hours for the "fast" Charlie wagon to buildup to 5 people. It took 3 hours for my wagon to build up to 4.

This is why you're town. Most of the scums came to you, but only half went to Charlie because his buddies were slow on the draw. They must like to switch it up every now and again.

Charlie's wagon built up slowly because it was on a lurker of debateable scumminess who hadn't received a lot of attention.

C-Worl's wagon built up quickly because it was composed almost entirely of people who have consistently (and correctly) recognized all of the many scummy things he's done ALL GAME.

Don't try to rewrite history.

[Pine]

God help us all. Prepare for the mastinwalls.

[Pine]

^TC is at L-2

Offtopic: The Great Wall of China was actually not intended to directly keep the Huns out of China. The cost of manning such an enormous wall was prohibitive, so it was lightly-manned most of the time. When a raiding party broke through the wall, though, the soldiers and militia were called out to guard the wall, making it nearly impossible for the raiders to escape with their lives. Very quickly, it became seen as suicidal for Hun raiders to cross the wall, and so it stopped. /history buff

[Pine]

Tclawren is at L-1.

I'd like a claim.

[Pine]

Neighbor =/= Mason

In fact, in many games that I've read, Mods like to put a Townie and a Scum together when they have a pair set up at the beginning of the game. If it's a recruitment role, that's different, but EL's flip didn't say "Neighborizer," and the way TC claimed, it's probably a pre-set pair and not a growing Neighborhood like we saw in There Will Be Blood.

Vote stays.

[Pine]

Scum-lean.
Then again, T-bone pointing this out 1: makes me suspicious of Pine being T-bone's buddy, and 2: makes me doubt the Chrono suspicion.

Pine - 8 (

bristep123

, ConSpiracy,

Nobody Special

,

C-Worl

, Nachomamma8, Chronopie,

tclawren

,

Nero Cain

) L-5
C-Worl - 8 (

RayFrost

,

Seraphim,

jindori

, SnakePlissken, MaxKojote

, Pine,

Lucresia,

[Moonstruck]

) L-5

Whoah. Both of these need some serious scumz on them. I can tell Nacho's scum on Pine, and jindori's scum on C-Worl, but there needs to be more than this! I suppose Moonstruck semi-counts, but still, that's only three and a half scum--I'd expect 1-2 more on here.
Names alive on the Pine Wagon:
Bristep (Powerrox), ConSpiracy, C-worl, Nacho, Chrono, tclaw.
-Bristep/Powerrox, C-worl, and tclaw are all town.
*Leaving ConSpiracy, Nacho, and Chrono.
~Nacho's scum; it's painfully obvious to me. But I still expect one more scum in there, minimum.

Names alive on the C-worl wagon:
RayFrost (Reckamonic), Pine.
-Wagon contains two scum.
*However, one of the scum is a third party.
~I'd still expect one more scum on here.
~Since Reckamonic's town, this doesn't look good for Pine.
=...Though my Pine reads are probably not the most reliable things in the world.

This is through page six. Let's see how my reads change. (They probably won't. First five are really the most important on getting into the game.)

No, if this and TWBB are anything to judge your reads of me by, they're not that reliable. You're missing one very obvious probability, though. And that's that C-Worl is probably scum, and the wagon was indeed mostly Town-driven.

Unfortunately, Mastin, I think you replaced into a scum slot, and sticking up for D1 C-Worl supports that suspicion, in a big way. And that makes me sad, because I enjoy working with you, instead of against you

OTOH, Lowell was never a strong read in the first place, and you're skimming, so there's also the possibility that you're just wrong.

Why do you think C-Worl is Town?

[Pine]

^Dodging the question.

I don't mind if it isn't concise. Even if the rest of these bastards don't read it, I will.

I don't think you have a good C-Worl Town case, I think you're relying on your reputation to save you the trouble. Indeed, I think that's part of your scum meta: rely on your inscrutability and the fact that most people don't really read your walls.

So. Why is C-Worl Town?

[Pine]

BAD posting. If Pine thought C-worl was scum,

He should have hammered,

right then and there

.
The extreme LACK of a hammer--and continued drive of C-worl as scum

even to this day

, is evidence that Pine never wanted to lynch C-worl, the convenient mislynch. Pine wanted to keep C-worl alive, for that eventual mislynch. Pine didn't want to look scummy for hammering. "Short days"

My biggest regret of the thread.

I'd just come off a game (off-site) where we caught and focused on scum D1 to the exclusion of pretty much everything else, and quicklynched successfully. I had advocated that lynch. On D2, we were caught with our dicks in our hands, with no leads and basically starting from square one with a slightly smaller scumteam. I was understandably wary of short days when we had a weeks-long deadline to work on things.

Your case for C-Worl as "obvTown" is nonsense. You base it solely (so far) on the pages where a C-Worl wagon built to a firm majority of people thinking him scum. And yet your Town read wasn't obvious to ANYONE. This SCREAMS inside information to me, whether it's knowing him as a scumbuddy or knowing that he isn't one.

I call bullshit.

Were I not intent on tclawren-scum, I'd switch to mastinscum.

[Pine]

+1 to T-Bone. Well spotted.

[Pine]

I recall kr0b and tclawren being my first two real scum reads of any strength after glaringly obvscum C-Worl. The kr0b went silent, and Charlie has lurked so much that I actually

forgot

that he had replaced into a scummy slot.

So yeah, Charlie could use another look. I'll ISO kr0b/Charlie later.

[Pine]

I'd still prefer tclawren, but if a majority are willing to go with Charlie or C-Worl, either are interchangeable as a "second-best" lynch.

[Pine]

I'm okay with a Charlie lynch I think.... but let's let Maskin finish his walls and catchup. We have until the 17th so let's not rush things.
Something is telling me to wait on the Charlie lynch for now.

I'm pretty sure C-Worl might be town, but we may want him to be NK'd if he is as he will be detrimental in Lylo should we get there.....
I want to see what happens with the tclawren thing.... I get super scum reads from him but I want to give him a chance to explain his neighbor claim.

Can there be scum neighbors?

Yes. I could find examples, but I'd really rather not. I've seen Town/Scum neighbor combinations before. Hell, I've BEEN the scum neighbor (in There Will Be Bloodshed.)

[Pine]

Neighborizer is allowed. Like I said, I was scum in TWBB and got recruited by the Neighborizer.

[Pine]

EL flipped as "Town Neighbor" and tclawren claimed his Neighbor. Neighborizer was not mentioned, and the fact that it wasn't leads me to believe it's a straight 1+1 pair of Neighbors, one Town, one Scum.

[Pine]

I realize that C-Worl and that's totally not the point.

Then what is the point?

The point is that he

manipulated

the VCA to cast guilt upon others, while not even mentioning that he also looks guilty by the same VCA. Town players would have mentioned it and ruled themselves out, but allowed other Townies to make an unbiased judgment.

Screw this.

Unvote

VOTE: Mastin2

[Pine]

He didn't randomly pick us. he picked the biggest threats to his faction.

[Pine]

C-worl, there's a subtle difference between town and scum play. I've written, like, three articles about the subject. Eventually, if you know where to look, you can pick out the differences. It's an extra layer of scum hunting.

Do you want to mention how many articles you've read and written a few more times, Mastin?

As much as I'm fond of you and enjoy playing with you, the way you're conducting yourself in this game is vastly different from when I've played with you before.

You have:

1) Set up yourself to be perceived as an expert, which will cow the masses and the scum into simply following your lead (see C-Worl's vote above)
2) Targeted your biggest threats, those who were getting close to the scum team you're on (Tomorrow, when I don't have a guest, I'm going to do an analysis of where the suspicions of the four of us intersect.)
3) Further targeted the two people (Nacho and I) who can best support or threaten you. Were I Town, I would court those who know me best, even if I did have a sneaking suspicion of them, to establish my legitimacy. You're doing the opposite. By condemning us, almost immediately, you discredit and misrepresent anything the two of us might say regarding your meta.
4) Gone into wall-mode, which I find endearing when it's productive. In this case, however, you've tunnelled in on only a few targets, instead of scumhunting the whole Town, which is very unlike you. That means to me that you have an AGENDA. One that does not coincide with the scumhunting objectives of the Town.
5) You picked your targets right away, despite having nothing but the barest skim-through of a read. Then, on your full read-through, everything you read magically fits your preconceived allegations. This could mean two things. Either you're tunnelling Town, determined only to see what you want, or (far more likely,) you're a midgame scum replacement hoping to lead the town to a few mislynches before the trust runs out.

Confirm Vote: Mastin2

<3 anyway, though. If you'd chosen someone other than the only person I know to be confirmed Town, I might have been fooled.

[Pine]

In other words, I am a victim of positive prejudices, like anyone else. The idea that he chose me out of the blue, despite the fact that I'm not, in fact, scum, alerted me to the fact that he's full of bullshit. And after a critical analysis of the rest of his reads, in light of the fact the he's full of it, most of them don't hold together either.

My guess? His four include one of his scumbuddies, a genuine scumread on the other team, and two Townies. I'm in the latter category. If I had to pick his scumbuddy, I'd say perhaps Gorilla. It isn't me, I doubt he'd bus his butt buddy Nacho, and it seems to be the weakest case. Also, look at the interaction between Gorilla and Mastin. It's pretty weak, and he's not driving hard at Gorilla like he is at me. For the genuine scum read, it might indeed be Nacho, or

maybe

T-Bone. Both cases are fairly strong, and I think he'd want to get rid of Nacho, who is privy to all of Mastin's thought processes after hydraing with him.

[Pine]

If I have to be mislynched to prove that Mastin is full of shit, I'm willing to accept that.

[Pine]

I didn't dismiss his whole case. I figured out his angle. Like I said, a mislynch of me will show me to be correct.

Look at his

last

(PE: second-to-last) post. He's using his pre-determined scum reads to clear other people. That is NOT objective. Mastin-Town is VERY objective, even with his scum reads. I have never seen him use a "confirmed scum" read to actually clear someone else. To do it when there are two known scum teams and you only have four reads out of (probably) five remaining scum is a SLIP.

[Pine]

Have an unvote.
UNVOTE: mastin2

Scum unvote. Specifically in response to Charlie being called Town by Mastin, who may be a buddy.

Mastin's walls are increasingly full of horseshit. They are SOLELY reliant on self-reinforcing, self-fulfilling prophecies.

By far the most damning thing is that he clears people as Town based on his pre-set scumreads, giving not the slightest consideration that he might be wrong (and he is about at least one of them,) and then turns around and uses those cleared "Town" reads to condemn those few even more.

Mastin is scum.

Confirm Vote: Mastin2

[Pine]

And it's annoying as fuck that he's stalling the game like this. He isn't actually providing anything new, just magically reinforcing the same bullshit reads he had in his first couple of posts and telling us that everyone we have a scumread on is Town.

He's scum trying to take over the thread, and apparently succeeding.

[Pine]

He's not even out of Day 1. He just analyzed the SnakePlissken wagon.

He's just way overcompensating for having pulled a scummy slot, which on a certain level, I can respect.

[Pine]

Because his lynch doesn't interest me today. I don't think we learn enough with a mastin flip with the way he's been throwing out his accusations. If he's scum, we learn that more than likely that he was trying to lynch town. If he flips town, then we're back at square one tomorrow with other players trying to push his really bad reads. That's why I don't want a mastin lynch today. I think we learn more from a Chronopie lynch.

SORRY CAM YOU KNOW IT'S C.L.A.N. 4 LYF HOME SLICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 THAT AND I'M NOT LURKING, YOU WANT A LURKER? TRY SOMEONE WHO HASN'T POSTED TODAY.

But seriously OOC isn't a good reason to make decisions Cam.

No, I don't think he's just trying to lynch Town. That's too obvious, and not his style. One of those four main targets is a bussing victim, and one or two is a genuine opposing scum read. I doubt he'd risk all four flipping Town. He'll want at least a few scum mixed in there, so he can lead Town to LyLo and the scum win. More detail:

In other words, I am a victim of positive prejudices, like anyone else. The idea that he chose me out of the blue, despite the fact that I'm not, in fact, scum, alerted me to the fact that he's full of bullshit. And after a critical analysis of the rest of his reads, in light of the fact the he's full of it, most of them don't hold together either.

My guess? His four include one of his scumbuddies, a genuine scumread on the other team, and two Townies. I'm in the latter category. If I had to pick his scumbuddy, I'd say perhaps Gorilla. It isn't me, I doubt he'd bus his butt buddy Nacho, and it seems to be the weakest case. Also, look at the interaction between Gorilla and Mastin. It's pretty weak, and he's not driving hard at Gorilla like he is at me. For the genuine scum read, it might indeed be Nacho, or

maybe

T-Bone. Both cases are fairly strong, and I think he'd want to get rid of Nacho, who is privy to all of Mastin's thought processes after hydraing with him.

[Pine]

Oh yeah, this old chestnut.

I'm "scum" because I spotted you as actual scum, right, C-Worl?

Pine as Town
Pine as Town
Pine as Town

[Pine]

C-Worl said he'd only seen my scum meta. I provided additional information, so he could make an objective decision.

[Pine]

In other words, "I'm too lazy to read any of those games, especially because something in them might actually contradict my framing of Pine."

I forgot to link to another Town game of mine.

Link

[Pine]

^Confirms Gorilla as Mastin scumbuddy.

Now seriously, can we get on with this? Right at this minute, I'd be happy to take the lynch to prove once and for all how full of shit Mastin is, and also because I'm sick to death of how slow this game is going.

[Pine]

Venting frustration is not the same as actually advocating self-lynch. Mastin is just so clearly wrong that I'd almost be glad to just rub his face in my Town flip.

[Pine]

C-Worl, now you're just being an ass.

[Pine]

^Real Town that had put as much work into those posts as you have would be ADAMANT on taking down one of their "confirmed" scum. Especially as, if you're to be believed, you've got the scumteams almost completely nailed down. Indeed, you have (on several occasions) listed the "entirety of the remaining wolves."

Real Town in that situation would accept nothing less than either myself or Mr. Zepher as the lynches today and tomorrow, hoping to eliminate a source of night kills as early as is possible.

{Jindori, Pine, Zepher} is the wolf-team as I mentioned, and {T-Bone, Nacho, Singer} is the other scumteam.

Why would you accept anything else, if your goal was actually to eliminate the scum as listed above?

[Pine]

@Mod: Fix quote tags? <3

Done.

[Pine]

1660

[Pine]

^I'm becoming more and more certain that T-Bone is part of the scum faction opposing Mastin's. The case on T-Bone is comprehensive enough to be a real one as Mastin's biggest opposing scumread. Bus-and-clear Gorilla, and condemn your two biggest meta threats (me and Nacho.)

@C-Worl: My biggest scum reads? I have a lot of minor ones, but right now, Mastin and you take the cake. With your scumflips, that'll answer a lot of questions, and all of the other scummy people can be re-evaluated.

I'd fuck YOU...drunk.

STOP BANDING MY ACATAR,

Epic

[Pine]

Charlie is doing the "active lurk to LyLo" strategy.

[Pine]

PINE IS GENIUS CHANGE YOUR VOTE!

BUT T-BONE DAWG. PINE'S CASE IS STUPID SINCE MASTIN

IS

ADAMANT THAT YOU ARE SCUM AND HE'S VOTING FOR YOU. HE CLAIMS THAT YOU ARE HIS BIGGEST SCUM READ. PINE'S POINT SEEMS TO CONTRADICT ITSELF WHEN YOU REALIZE THAT WHAT HE SAYS MASTIN ISN'T DOING IS WHAT MASTIN IS DOING. BTW, THERE ARE VERY IMPORTANT REASONS WHY MASTIN NEEDS TO STAY ALIVE TODAY. TRUST ME, I'LL EXPLAIN TOMORROW.

My points don't contradict themselves. I challenge you to show me where they do.

Mastin, however, freely and repeatedly contradicts himself. I've already pointed out some of the most egregious examples.

Explain the reasons, if you have any, why Mastin should live.

[Pine]

No, you said that I contradict myself when I contradict myself. Where, exactly, is said contradiction? Until you can point me at it, it doesn't exist.

[Pine]

What the hell are you talking about, C-Worl? I never said anything that contradicts that.

[Pine]

{Jindori, Pine, Zepher} is the wolf-team as I mentioned, and {T-Bone, Nacho, Singer} is the other scumteam.

Apparently, "fourth" and "not on my list at all" are interchangeable according to whim and convenience.

[Pine]

You know, just because you wrote a good article for Cops doesn't mean everything you write in MD is sacrosanct.

[Pine]

Mastin is textbook scum-leading-Town.

[Pine]

My vote's not moving.

[Pine]

Because Mastin is scum, and so are you. Chronopie is (and always have been) suspicious, but he's a tier or two lower than you and Mastin.

[Pine]

^Troll

[Pine]

lolwhat? Chronopie ranks somewhere around like...sixth or seventh on my list. Not high enough to take me off of my #1.

[Pine]

NO.

Fuck all of you.

PUT YOUR GODDAMN VOTES ON CP RIGHT NOW.

I will change my signature to "I take it up the ass from Chronopie" if he magically ends up being town.

I'll also add "I take it in the mouth from MrZepher" if he flips town. But only if you vote for him.

This is almost tempting enough to say "screw the game, I'm voting for C-Worl sig bet."

But I don't throw games.

[Pine]

Oh, look. I go away, come back to see a couple pages of extra content, and...

...Find that it contains pretty much nothing I wasn't expected.

The most productive thing done there was that people realized Chronopie might not be the best lynch.

Though,

Chronopie - 4 (gorilla, tclawren, T-Bone, Nachomamma8)
tclawren - 2 (implosion, Reckamonic)
T-Bone - 2 (mastin2, Chronopie)
Pine - 2 (ConSpiracy, C-Worl)
Charlie - 1 (Powerrox93)
mastin2 - 1 (Pine)
ConSpiracy - 1 (Kise)
Powerrox93 - 1 (singersigner)

Not voting - 2 (Charlie, MrZepher)

Looks like without me, you still haven't gotten a better alternative. Loads of (2) wagons, and a few (1) wagons.

T-Bone wasn't lying about one thing:
We need to combine a lot of those wagons and narrow things down.

He just narrowed it down to two horrible wagons, Charlie/Chrono.

I propose instead we focus on your choice between T-Bone and Pine.

You can't seriously think

both

of them are town, can you?

(Still V/LA, right now, though I'm home.)

Seriously? You were advocating it for a bit not too long ago. How are you people not noting the dissonance with mastin?

Do me a favor. ISO mastin, and just do a word search on "Chrono". Most browsers have one. Note the wildly- and frequently-shifting opinion mastin gives. It is VERY clear now that mastin's game plan is to set up convoluted, rambling walls that aren't meant to accomplish much of anything, in the expectation that none of you will actually read them. This creates the illusion of substantial thought going into his "reads," and the fact that he has established

every single possible stance on people

enables him to fall back on any of those positions at will in order to support whatever wagon is in vogue.

[Pine]

Hrm. I'm more and more convinced that T-Bone is scum of some flavor (opposing Mastin's flavor), but the Mastin-Chrono relationship is starting to sound like a fake bus that gained momentum, and Mastin is pulling his support now that it seems like his target is less popular than his scumbuddy.

[Pine]

Okay, I'm convinced. Not by mastin, but by T-Bone himself. I had suspicions of him on D1, and they're back hard core.

UNVOTE: mastin2
VOTE: T-Bone

[Pine]

C-Worl and mastin are scumbuddies doing the "too buddied to be buddies" dance. Chronopie may be the third, which likely makes them Mafia.

T-Bone is one of the remaining wolves, with maybe kise or tclawren as a buddy? I'm not so solid on those any more.

[Pine]

Yes, I am. I'm one of the only actively-scumhunting Townies left. The thread's gotten flooded with scum bullshit, and most of the Town have checked out and are waiting for a flip to clarify things.

[Pine]

If my lynch is what is necessary to break this logjam and get a positive flip, then so be it. I feel that me flipping Town will blow mastin, C-Worl, and T-Bone wide open, and if even two of them are actually scum, my sacrifice is worth it.

I am a Vanilla Townie. Please go after T-Bone next, I have a feeling he's one of the two remaining wolves, and the sooner we eliminate a source of NKs, the longer Town will survive.

UNVOTE: T-Bone
VOTE: Pine

[Pine]

My self-vote is not emo. I genuinely believe that my Town flip will provide the necessary information to untangle the Gordian knot that this thread has become.

[Pine]

Unvote
Vote: T-Bone

Fine.