130.Mirror Mafia - Game Over

[Nocmen]

/confirm

[Nocmen]

Also, VLA Until monday afternoon. Away for the weekend with some of hte slowest hotel internet ever

[Nocmen]

I'm back, doing a readthrough now.

[Nocmen]

I'm going to ignore CJMiller's post because it makes no sense and if it was a game breaker well I think something would be done that early.

Magister's questions -
1. Alone
2. I work on my own. It's not as competitive if it's with a friend.
3. No
4. 4.

Pacman's claim - How does you hiding behind people allow you to confirm them as town/scum?

Thor - So because of the random votes, those people are scum? If anything, I'm looking at you for grasping as that so suddenly.

I agree with acronach, pacman will not be our lynch today. We have more than ample time to confirm/deny his claim

because, town or third party, he's not a d1 lynch

well third party are inherantly anti-town, so you should try to lynch a player you think is confirmed townie :/

and i would want to lynch a townie... why?

Second that question.

I'll answer to the intent of my questions when everyone has had to a chance to either respond to them or reject them.

Vote: Nocmen

Your previous post is off. You imply that you believe people will begin examining you if you don't state that you are here and ready to read (when In reality 60% of this game hasn't posted anything), and that reads as over concerned about your status and how people view you.

Add that to the fact you could of simply read through this thread, as it is only two pages, and posted instead of saying you are 'reading through', and I find this a very satisfactory vote.

If you saw one of my first posts, I said I was VLA. I was merely stating that I returned from VLA. I did not know how long this would take to read through and make this post. At the least, it was meant for the mod, saying that I have returned, and there is no need to prod me. Nice attempt at trying to make this something bigger than it is. So you think that anyone who says that is scum because of that? It's all WIFOM.

Vote: Thor

[Nocmen]

because, town or third party, he's not a d1 lynch

I don't understand your logic. Now you're saying that he's town or third party, but before you said you were willing to lynch him at deadline. What are you trying to say here, that he's a better lynch because he claimed hider (because of the possibility of him being third party)?

@Nocmen: Vote explanation fail; please rectify. Why are you voting for thor?

I want to hear what Ludi has to say about his questions, but I agree with thor, I doubt it will produce much in the way of Mafia results.

Did you read my post? I clearly stated what I saw wrong with Thor.

[Nocmen]

Nocmen's question about my claim - If I hide behind scum I die. Which means that if I survive a night I must have hid behind town.

That makes sense. I didn't realize the part where you hide behind scum you die, I thought it was only if the person you hid behind was killed.

Nor do we like Nocmen for his piggybacking of Arc.

So wait, because I agreed that we shouldnt lynch pacman today in order to test out his claim, I'm piggybacking Arc?

Calcifer's post 132: A list of who he thinks is scum and town, with out reasoning behind much of that. But for a lot of it, I'm concerned due to the fact that many of them seem as repeats of the popular opinion at the time.

Don't like Arch's play, especially the OMGUS, but something doesn't make sense.

Flinter - The posts he makes seem like he's trying to explain a bit too much of what he thought. Seems a bit too much on the defensive

Ion's vote on Bub - out of the blue, very concerning.

vote: Acronach

As good a Day 1 bandwagon as we'll get for now.

As others have mentioned, this is pretty terrible.

Stop watching TV and get in the game, please.

I agree with this in saying that pine made 3 fluff posts saying he was going to read the thread and by the third still hadn't read the thread.
Then right after bub's post(7 minutes) he makes another fluff post.
Posting multiple times saying he's reading the thread seems like he's trying to get some townie points.

Arc is getting quite a few votes, I'm finding him neutral as of right now.

I want everyone that's not Ion and Bub to answer this.

Buy or sell: If Bub is town, Ion is scum.

Sell, I don't think I've seen enough to buy this.

I'd say the scummiest thing I've seen so far is Ctorj's vote. He might think he can get away with it in such a larger game, I'll

Vote:Ctorj49

.

This sums up a lot more than I can on a few posts.

Not liking Cecily's 194, seems like to warrant an excuse for lurking (which I know, pot kettle, etc), but I have to at least put it out there. The issue is , Cecily, that I'm not seeing too much content right now from you, and it seems like you are extremely unproductive. And many of the reasons you voted for Pine can be applied to a vote for you.

Vote: Cecily

I feel like zd put a bit too much in his post where he voted Bub, trying to create reasons when he just wanted to wagon.

Caboose: Yes, I feel like Furc's play is consistent from the other game or two I've played with him.

Farside - You do realize that at that point in the game, you have to start looking into stuff? There wasn't much, but it was no point making a random vote that late, and I felt that I would vote for what was the most scummy to me, which was Thor's vote.

Furc- what I don't understand about your post with the list is that you put different people in different spots for the same thing. People who are lurking you have all over. People who have made horrible votes with no explanation you have all over.


Of the people who are actually productive, the top of my scum list are cecily and to an extent Furc, but as I mentioned, It's hard to tell with Furc having a meta like that. Below that I'd put Ion, and zd.

[Nocmen]

Now the reasons behind Ludi's questions make sense, but I doubt that anything serious will come out from that. Still, his reasons weren't total crap and were noble in their objective, so I've going to say that Ludi is town.

@Ctorj49: I'm completely fine with short posts; text walls make my eyes bleed.

But there is a difference towards contributing, and posting 3 posts this whole game, only 1 of which contains actual reasoning. And it's hard to peg a wagon vote as getting a reaction, as if the first votes wouldn't do that. Why are you defending his active lurking and not that of others?

Farside: When Thor made his first postts, it definitely seemed like he was going for the weakest player with the easiest target. He was finding people scummy for their pure random votes, in RVS. However, his later posts have taken away some of that scumness towards him to me, and he is leaning town in my eyes.

[Nocmen]

Also, one more thing to add about ctorj: Keep in mind, twisted, that is "RVS Vote" was made on Tuesday, page 6. When we already had some good content to go from.

[Nocmen]

Something I noted during the day as I pondered a few things I recalled reading and missed:

Farside - You do realize that at that point in the game, you have to start looking into stuff? There wasn't much, but it was no point making a random vote that late, and I felt that I would vote for what was the most scummy to me, which was Thor's vote.

This comes off hypocritical to me. You vote for Thor for pushing something during RVS then say there's not much to go on when I push further. So Thor pushing on weak tells is scummy, you doing it is what then?

Also Furclow made a statement about me pushing a mislynch but had Bud on his scummy list. Ummm how much sense does that make?

X

None!

Furclow added to scum list.

Calcifer - Nacho has a tendency to always call me scum in games lately. Seriously Nacho will you give me a reason this game like the other or will this be more like nothing of value?

Because opinions can change as the game goes on. I've never played with Thor before, and it definitely looked like he was preying on the weak when he made that vote. Is that not scummy?

Furc - The issue I have with your meta is that your posts are highly scummy, even if you are town. That means I will constantly still keep you in suspicion. The fact that you're aware of your meta between town and scum is WIFOM as your defense. But I do like your vote and reasoning behind it.

[Nocmen]

I agree with Thor, and I'm willing to support a zdenek lynch today too.

[Nocmen]

Unvote: Cecily
Vote: Zdenek

I reserve the right to later go rushing back to Cecily, and also reserve the right that if she later flips scum to go 'nyaah-nyaah' in Calcifer's face. That slot is still terribad, but I want to play out this wagon.

@Calcifer - I like the Nocman=town case, though I think it's sloppy to suggest that all three of the scumteam were pushing on one player. There was probably at least one of the scumteam calling him town at that time, yeah? Neutral on the Bub=town case.

Are you saying you know scum numbers?

[Nocmen]

Can't guarantee I'll get to this tonight, and if not,

Unvote, Vote: Zdanek

for deadline

[Nocmen]

Mod:

I changed my vote in 436.

[Nocmen]

So I was also confused with the deadline rules in this game. Regardless, I have time for a catch-up that I was thinking It'd be night by the time I got back.

Unfortunately, I have to believe the mason claim for now.

Unvote

.

I'm not going to rush with the Gollum wagon right now, I'm not fully convinced with him at this point, especialyl with how fast people seem to be willing to jump from zd wagon to his. I'm looking at you, Twisted.

Looking at the vote count, I didn't realize how many people there are that I haven't seen stand out or posts from very much at all. THis list is:
Flinter
Pappums Rat
Bunnylover

Then I do see a post from flinter, with an apology directly, and saying they need to join "the only viable wagon now".

FoS: Flinter

I have to be curious about Gollum's claim, but again, I don't think we are right to go after a claimed role Day 1.

What concerns me the most: A "GF Read" that Gollum mentions. It just seems out of place to me.

I don't like how Magister comes for the defense of Gollum. It seems a bit too much like a possible buddying.

Caboose: Why the cecily vote?

Cecily: Why the gollum vote, and really, is that all you have to comment on?

By the way Nocmen's response to Bud with the question was thus:

because, town or third party, he's not a d1 lynch

I don't understand your logic. Now you're saying that he's town or third party, but before you said you were willing to lynch him at deadline. What are you trying to say here, that he's a better lynch because he claimed hider (because of the possibility of him being third party)?

@Nocmen: Vote explanation fail; please rectify. Why are you voting for thor?

I want to hear what Ludi has to say about his questions, but I agree with thor, I doubt it will produce much in the way of Mafia results.

Did you read my post? I clearly stated what I saw wrong with Thor.

That is why I found it odd that Bud would not come back and say something in return about it. I feel this is weak question to Nocmen and believe I could see connection.
Since Cal's defense both Nocmen and Bud have been laying low and folllowing the BW's without much. At least Bud said something (although I feel a stretch) with Gollum, but I sure as shit believe scum would push for a vig lynch.

Farside: From that post, are you saying that I'm scum because Bub didn't reply to my reply?

1) Votes Thor for grasping at straws
But when asked about his Thor vote:

Farside - You do realize that at that point in the game, you have to start looking into stuff? There wasn't much, but it was no point making a random vote that late, and I felt that I would vote for what was the most scummy to me, which was Thor's vote.

Hypocrite

2) Doesn't push on reasons for why he finds Cec scummy just sits on the vote.
3) vote switch for deadline. Conviently not stating a reason with saying it was for deadline reasons
4) I also notice that Nocmen seems to suspect Thor but agrees to vote with Thor on Zd

Also, way to take my quote out of context from point 1 and still try to use point 4. If you look at the same post, I stated I didn't suspect Thor anymore.

As for number 2, I think I clearly stated I was voting Cec for active lurking. I'm really curious if to people are reading my posts at all, because with this and the quote exchange above in this post, it doesnt seem like everyone is.
3. I was okay with a zd lynch, in previous posts I had mentioned I didnt like his interactions with Bub. When deadline seemed to be looming, I had to compromise and go for a lower suspect.

Vote: Bub

. Way too wishy-washy and I dont like the way many of his posts seem to be either 1-2 lines, or him hopping on the zd/gollum wagon. Honestly, his posts and votes seem way too similar to Cecily. But some of these posts just don't seem in place, as opposed to cecily just lacking post content.

[Nocmen]

Vote: Bub. Way too wishy-washy and I dont like the way many of his posts seem to be either 1-2 lines, or him hopping on the zd/gollum wagon. Honestly, his posts and votes seem way too similar to Cecily. But some of these posts just don't seem in place, as opposed to cecily just lacking post content.

I don't think so. I get Cec's point more clearly then Bud's. At least i know why Cec's reason's.
Brings up past game experience is a plus and showing clearly what she(?) finds scummy is better then BW with no reason.

I want to look at these side by side. I'm pretty sure somebody is wrong.

How come more people aren't voting Ludi yet? Do I actually have to respond to his little wall rant to convince you? How about people look back at his "constant" pressure on Bub, how he initially responded to pressure from me, and than his most recent response to pressure from me. I really don't think I'm seeing things here.

Magister is a neutral vote to me. I see things that are suspicious, but indirectly.

@Nocmen: I especially hate the Z vote and the timing of it. The Gollum vote AFTER the vig claim also sucks.

Referring to Bub or Cecily here?

Thor, people aren't voting because your reason and logic is fallous.

You've pushed on Cecily all game, switched in an attempt to create two mislynches, and now just have no strong or clear idea what you are doing.

And on a side note for Calcifer, would it be possible to have the summary

before

the 42 massive wall write ups. If the 42 walls are even needed at all. Just a simple point chart so I can read those thoughts, with +1 for each time a 'scummmish' action is committed and -1 for each time a 'town' action is committed.

Everyone ever on or entertaining a thought of voting Gollum or Zdenek wagons, please get off. There is no pro-town reason to even examine either of these people for the next several days.

Why are you saying they are mislynches?

[Nocmen]

No, Thor, fallous is slang where I come from. Not referencing phallus or any other such thing.

Noc, Well, unless you believe

a. Masons are lying
b. Vig is lying

They are mislynches.

Its a mislynch.

But there's a difference between holding out for at least a day after a claim, and knowing they are mislynches.

And at the time of thors posts, they were unclaimed. I don't see how this affects him. Sure , if he is scum, he wants to create mislynches, but you're going and completely negating any reasons for his vote, and making too broad conclusions when there is no evidence of the claims being true or not right now. Also, you are now dismissing a lot of his pro-town actions. So let's see here:

Listen to this as well Thor.

1. I asked you to look at pappums, because of several actions that were questionable, at best.

2. Your last post

dismisses

my push on the rat, essentially boiling it down to because Magister is SCUM because of GUT, pappums is

TOWN

3. Calcifer, one post prior established that if we assume Gollum is town, based on a vig claim, we can then assume pappums is scum. (Others may or may not agree with this statement.)

4. You then say Calcifer is

TOWN

, even though he just pushed on the

EXACT SAME

person I did, for similar thought processes.

5. This shows your reads and pushes aren't

CONDITIONAL

on this game, but on a weak basis, as you use the SAME criteria to judge two different people

DIFFERENTLY.

6. The purpose of this inconsistency comes from...

scum

.

Bub, Pappums of Thor are now the best lynches.

2: You've dismissed Thor's posts and many of his reasons.
4. Because every single post and vote will fully reflect the background of votes. What about my vote on Bub, when Cecily has a lot of the same posting style and votes as him? Sure I didn't call one scum one town, but isn't that an inconsistency? You're going after Thor for going after Cecily, but yet you support a Bub lynch, but not Cecily?

[Nocmen]

It seems like a bit at the start there, Calcifer/Mastin, is a stretch (referring to the 7th, for example) - but I disagree with your conclusion. I feel that it is very scummy to post almost nothing, while voting for the two biggest wagons so far

[Nocmen]

Thor, you're really, really shaking my townread on you. Almost to the point of wanting to apologize for my defense of you.

UNVOTE: Magister Ludi
VOTE: Gollum

Why do you vote when a new case appears to possibly cause a wagon, and then barely post anything why? You post stuff of town reads, not scum reads.

Calc: After the case you made, you said its less likely that Cecily is scum, yet you prefer a lynch of Cecily over Bub?

We have 4 hrs until the day ends.

Unvote, Vote: Cecily

, I will not let a no lynch happen. I can agree with farside and lynch Bub too, I personally feel that Bub and Cecily are scummy for the same actions, while Bub has a bit more cause behind it.

[Nocmen]

I liked how pappums came out of nowhere to actually contribute and give a nice case on twisted, I'm stating this so it's not overlooked in the pre-deadline panic.

I agree with Calc, none of these seem like good vig kills.

Vote: Gollum

[Nocmen]

Since this is a normal game, bus driver redirection shenengians are not allowed if I am not mistaken.

I'd have to agree with that, I wouldn't anticipate redirects in a normal.

[Nocmen]

Weren't two scum teams also called not normal? Or was that something that's changed the past few years?

[Nocmen]

Unvote, Vote: Bub

Nothing wrong with lynching who I wanted to lynch yesterday.

[Nocmen]

I'm going to go where I wanted to be and

Vote: Bub

yet again.

[Nocmen]

^Only possible if Pine's Black Mafia.

Why does it only work if Black? I'm missing the reasoning here.

Here's what I dislike though: Furc's Vote on Bub, blaming something we don't know even if it was a breadcrumb or not.

As well as Haylen's suspicion - because with the information we have...how is that even possible?

Duplicity: Why is bunny lover obvscum?

I dont 'like Pine's 825, becasue that seems too WIFOM with who focuses on the thread more, town/scum. But I do agree that yes, Haylen did not fully read the thread.

I do like flinter's analysis on Magister, and agree with it a lot.

What I dislike the most? Furc's votes. Going with the people who seem to be under town concern, as well as the fact that after he makes the whole "Oh I don't post walls as scum", he hasn't really posted a wall since then.

Unvote, Vote: Furcolow

[Nocmen]

my vote is not on bub idiot

I'm well aware of that.

[Nocmen]

Not at all, I'm saying I was more certain on BunnyLover being mafia therefore I pushed for a BunnyLover lynch, how is that particulary hard to grasp?

When you think somebody is obv scum, you make a case on them. That's how it works. Because of this, right now you are looking like you have just skimmed me in iso and made up a load of stuff, just so you could vote me and not look scummy for it. Even then, you had to be pushed to do it. How is that in any way a pro-town motivation?

and why wouldn't Haylen want to do that as scum?

Because I don't have a clue what he's talking about I'm gathering it's some form of meta on me that he's noticed.

I agree with wanting to see more with both of these that Haylen mentioned, especially Twisted's reasoning.

I have to agree with Bub as well, I think Magister's vote on Haylen is very weak. And I find a concern with the logic used to feel almost certain that Haylen is part of Black.

I don't see much reason behind Pine's vote, he says it's his reason on Thor, but to me I can't see anything more than a OMGUS at all.

Magister: With regards to your chart in 864, The main issue I have with this is the fact that most of the people farside attacked, were also being attacked by others at the same time. This has an impact with say, people who aren't contributing much, what would you feel about that? How is Haylen different than Cecily, Pappums, Ion, etc?

[Nocmen]

Vote Count?

Thoughts on the wagons Ct?

Which wagon? There's 3 of them.

Anyone. What about the previous wagons? Ones that have fallen apart, etc?

[Nocmen]

VLA from yesterday until Friday night, forgot to say it, but I'll be able to get a catchup tomorrow.

[Nocmen]

That was embarassing that I wasn't able to get to this at all during my week of traveling.

Starting on page 37, where I left off from my last read:

I don't agree with Ludi's case on Haylen, I think I said this before? While I think Haylen's misrep/disregard for some of the posts is scummy, I don't full think Magister is giving an honest, scum hunting case on her.

Twisted - While you call out Ctorj for not posting anything, you still aren't really contributing your opinions on the wagons and activites here.

Alright, let's get this bitch in gear.

SCUMTEAMS ARE:

(Black)
Pine
Ctorj

(Red)
Thor
Bub

(Margin of error)
TS
Bunnylover

Mastin and I will be going through town/scum reads, starting with reasoning for town and ending with reasoning for scum, hopefully before base time is over.

I agree with a lot here, except I'd put Furc as a replacement for Thor. Because I think your case on Thor requires a lot more to occur based on dependencies of others being scum. If say, his targets end up being scum or what not, then I'd seriously consider Thorscum. But for now, it just doesn't seem plausible.

Though this is something to note:

No, I am reading. You have never expressely stated which color you think pine is, or why this make sense.

Its not even team association. At minimum, there are four potential scum left in this game, and before being promted about it this page you had only ever identified one, Pine, and not even his color of scum, which you slipped in on post #925. You haven't been making an active effort to really sort out who is town or scum.

The point about my comment was that I called out Haylen for being scum, which would in your mind put her on a different team than me. Since you think I am black scum apparently, that would make her red scum, and buddies with twistedspoon who you just identified as red, or did you forget that you posted that?

This is during the asking Thor if he called Pine as a specific color of scum. He said the tracker is more likely to be Red, but yet Thor thinks Ludi is a buddy with Pine, in black? One of you two, Ludi and Thor, is lying off your ass.

Duplicity:

Why do you see Pine as obv scum in 938?

Answered in 943.

I have to facepalm at Haylen , more so than Thor did during the color-debate the page previously.

And Pine is Black now? I'm starting to lose credibility from Thor.

Once again, all I had to do was look at what color farside was. Since farside was red, then Thor obviously had Pine as black the whole time. I feel a bit better now about Thor. I'm still not sure how plausible a triple-targetting town role is though.

Ludi seems to go after Haylen now. Seems like a weak attack. And a lot rubs me the wrong way with his 1025.


Something else of note I saw while looking at Thor's ISO:

@Nocmen - With the current activity levels I started to think I must be playing a 12 man game and hence expected a 3 man scumteam. (and to clarify - No.)

@Ion - welcome to Vigbait is you territory, enjoy the weather, forecasts call for sporadic lead showers. Ask Cecily where the best cover is, I'm sure she visits every game. Oh, and your vote is lolfail right now, you might want to fix that.

@Calcifer - cute enough analysis of Cecily - why did you ignore my reason for voting her considering how much you defend her initial play I personally think my reason for voting her should appear significantly stronger in your eyes.

This just seems a bit too convenient in hind-sight, when we know there are 2 teams, likely with 3 on each.

I'm neutral with the Pine wagon. Not for, not against right now. But anything I've said about Thor being town, these last 3-4 pages have made me cancel them all out.

It also seems best if Thor is scum for the triple tracking result. I'm thinking right now that there are 3 power roles in red scum, and 4 black scum, with slightly less power roles.

What I dislike though - how much the Bud wagon has been under the radar, when people were so keen on it before. And with that mentioned, Magister's votes - who was so concerned with Bud previously, has pretty much all but ignored Bud.

Bud is black scum, Thor is red scum. I'm okay with lynching either today.

Unvote, Vote: Thor

[Nocmen]

Not liking Duplicity's push on Twisted at all. It seems forced out of pressure and what not. He gave in too fast to Thor's accusations of lurking, plus I have to be concerned of any attempt for a new wagon this late in the day, not wanting to repeat D1 again.

Flinter: Have you read my posts? I think some of my last posts helped explain my transition into thinking Thor was town into scum.

What I really don't like, is that all of a sudden you two (Flinter/Duplicity) are thinking Thor is town, WHEN YOU HAD YOUR VOTE ON HIM UNTIL JUST NOW.

[Nocmen]

I'm rather confused by what happened on the thor wagon. Is it that people were suddenly scared of the deadline and decided to vote for the biggest wagon, or what? I would expect scum to be reluctant to bus him close to deadline, and I would think town would be reluctant to throw away their read on Thor. In simpler words, this wagon went to fast to keep me confortable. One would expect a Thor-lynch to be a struggle, even if Calcifer decided to lynch him.

I'm going to support Duplicity's attempt on a TS lynch:

unvote vote TwistedSpoon

.

In that post, you pretty much say that it seems like a mislynch because of how he is being wagoned. Calling him town indirectly. And on the other hand, Duplicity pretty much straight up called Thor town.

[Nocmen]

I

did

read the cases. I just haven't independently considered the data very thoroughly.

And "seven other people"? By that logic, scum would never get caught for pushing a counter-wagon. Town is smart enough to figure out who the genuine people are, who got convinced onto a wagon, and who jumped on for convenience. Neither of your lynches are going through today, but we can talk about them tomorrow if you take your head out of your ass and do something meaningful with your vote before deadline.

Then please, if you are town, then which of the people on the Thor wagon are which? You seem to mention more of the votes on your wagon, but not the Thor one. What about previous wagons?

With regards to compromise lynches:

And if I'd said "I really know you don't have everything figured out" than you would have come wailing in with - Oh lordy, lordy, Thor knows the scumteams and knows I'm wrong, trololololol. Please sit on it with that one.

And if I did that, I'd be a trolling jerk.
But based on this posting, I'm guessing you consciously used that wording. T/F?

I've supplied both my top scumreads and my top townreads already - do you have an issue with how they were presented and need more, or what? And I'm allowed to discuss my disagreements with your cases - that's part of supplying my reads too. I really don't get your issue here.

More.
The only scumread I know of yours is PINE.
And I'm 100% you've made no posting figuring out his scumbuddies or his scumenemies.
I need more.

This is where I have another issue with Thor. As Calc mentioned, we need to be open to a compromise lynch. I am compromising and going with the Thor wagon.

I'm also considering the Ctorj wagon, here's the issue though:

With so few posts, it is way way too simple for scum to paint him as the "easy target", and get away with it.
However, he is incredibily anti-town at best, without giving reads/info/etc. Is it worth it to use a lynch on him at this point? We've only had one no lynch, and the other lynch is successful. This is why I'm okay with going after him, because he is guaranteed anti-town lynch at the worst.

Ludi's gambit/new player :

Oh, and Ludi actively claimed experience on another site - so I'm not sure you should apply newbie to him so strongly except as far as newbie to MS, which is not reflective of actual scum experience as a whole.

This sums up my thoughts on that. It's easy to tell from his first few posts that he was either experienced, or had read more than a few games here to see a theme of questions to start the game off with.

Calc: Why don't you think we would be able to lynch Ctorj?

Question: Does anyone think Ctorj is town at all, and why?

[Nocmen]

Nocmen, were you paying attention to the reply I gave to that question a few dozens posts ago? As for other wagons, you're going to have to be specific, or that's a huge task you're asking for.

Yes, that post seemed to look more as people who were preferring you over Thor. I don't see where the people voting for Thor stand.

[Nocmen]

I have consistently and unrelentingly hunted scum all game. At least half the players in the thread have, at some point or another, fallen under my scrutiny. I've confirmed Calcifer as Town (something that has zero scum motivation) and revealed the results of my investigations without being asked to do so. I was fairly instrumental in exposing Farside, which tricked the opposing scumteam into doing the Town's job and killing her. I am a Town-aligned investigation role that

has not been counter-claimed

.

I'm sold.

unvote; vote: Thor

Let's end this day already.

Is that all it takes for you to be sold? Why don't you try to sell us with you being town?

Also, something I feel that needs to be brought up again, a slip from thor that makes so much more sense now that we have two teams:

Unvote: Cecily
Vote: Zdenek

I reserve the right to later go rushing back to Cecily, and also reserve the right that if she later flips scum to go 'nyaah-nyaah' in Calcifer's face. That slot is still terribad, but I want to play out this wagon.

@Calcifer - I like the Nocman=town case, though I think it's sloppy to suggest that

all three of the scumteam were pushing on one player

. There was probably at least one of the scumteam calling him town at that time, yeah? Neutral on the Bub=town case.

[Nocmen]

wow, 3 unexpected flips right there

I think some scum will have been on the thor wagon. Maybe one from each. not sure

You know who wasn't on that last scum-wagon? YOU!

vote: Twistedspoon

Let's win this game already.

Ctorj, Thor wasn't scum, he was technically third-party, so he had no buddies that would defend him or not be on his lynch wagon.

I use scum in the general sense. Someone who is not for the town. He was an SK and that's bad too, semantics aside.

But that doesn't mean that twisted was defending him or thought he was town, does it?

People I still have concerns with:

Magister
Bud
Ctorj

I feel a bit better with the Pine info, with the Thor flip. I'm not doubting that Haylen targeted who he said she did. If he's blatantly lying to us suddenly, we have ample time with the crosskills to take him out.

Vote: Haylen

[Nocmen]

Vote: ctorj

Active lurking plus the votes are completely suspect.

[Nocmen]

That works too.

Unvote, Vote: Bub

[Nocmen]

hohum: I will not be voting pine today. It's as simple as that. And if you keep this way, I can definitely see moving my vote to.

Magister: Please, show me why Bub is town. I'm not believing it at all, especially when you pushed on him so hard earlier in the game.

[Nocmen]

Let's look at why Magister thinks Bud is town:

To be honest, this reread has me muddled on my once firm read on Bub. Gollum calls him scum in 15, 17, 30, 32, 34, 38, and farside goes after him in 1, 10, 17, 20, 24. Farside reads as the one more likely to be busing, as Gollum and Bub engage in quite an honest looking back and forth (i.e. not contrived), but that might be a stretch considering farsides 20 is rough. Its enought to make me back off a little.

But It does make me look into a few others. Ion isn't particularly pursued by either, and seems to be slipping under the radar. He shows up on several bad wagons of note:

Bub Bidderskins (5/11): evilpacman18, Magister Ludi, Ion67, Zdenek, farside22
Calcifer (1/11): Ion67
Not Voting (Day 2) (5): Ion67, Bub Bidderskins, Haylen, flinter, Cecily
Cecily (10/11): Caboose, Thor665, Pine, Bunnylover, Ion67, Zdenek, Duplicity, Nocmen, pappums rat, flinter

Haylen is avoided by either player. Ion does seem to be pushing now on Haylen, which would fit nicely into them both being scum on seperate teams.

Twisted spoon could be a potential red scum, based on play and interaction with other reds: Ion, farside. Gollum also expresses interest he may be scum, as does Haylen, who I think is now black scum. I'll look more into this.

So because two scum attacked him, he is town? Being bussed? That's the only reason I see you for saying he's town.

Going through bud's ISO now, a few questions for Bud:

For Zdenek's benefit:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16537

As far as my vote on Pine: yes, there are other lurkers, but there aren't other lurkers who have posted three times to say that they are reading the game. It reads to me of somebody who wants people to think that they're in the game when they really aren't. And I usually unvote off my RVS wagon after we leave the RVS if that player doesn't read as scummy.

About twisted spoon, I gave my honest opinion: null read. I stand by that. He has done some scummy things so far, but my gut says town. Gut and brain splitting=null read.

What do you think of Lurkers now? I wouldn't neccessarily call Pine a lurker anymore, but some people I feel have skimmed by this game under the radar. What do you say about them? Please, mention particulars.

Why the vote on Gollum late in Day 1? I find it curious within 24 hours how you can be claiming to have no read on him to going and then 22 hours later, you join the wagon on him, calling for an immediate claim. You don't post any of your own reasoning for this.

Noted Haylen defense:

Arg, sorry for not posting, busy days...

Anyway, the wagon on Haylen is total fail. She made an honest mistake.

vote: Magister Ludi

Ludi's tunneled on me for three days now with weak reasons. Then he jumps to Haylen all of a sudden with even weaker reasons.

[Nocmen]

Bub is redscum. However, do we want to off them now, or keep him alive in order to allow possible cross kills?

It makes sense though
1. Magister, you yourself said it was more likely for farside to be bussing
2. Defends Haylen pretty strong, then jumps on her as soon as the tracking claim from Pine is given.

One more question for Bub:

Why did you think Haylen wagon was "total fail" , and then trust Pine's result so suddenly once he had her in his result?

[Nocmen]

The furc kill to me seems like someone was aiming for a cross kill.

[Nocmen]

I still think we should mass-claim today, right now. I see no point in holding off.

I also see no point in pine not revealing his no-visit report today. There is no benefit, and only down side.

Bub wagon is just plain bad, but hohum is not going to vote himself. Noc or twisted, why not vote Hohum here today? (I feel like a broken record here)

Between hohum and Pine, there is a large conflict with those two players. However, hohum has tunneled on Pine since he entered the game. I don't think I am able to make a full judgement on hohum without seeing the Pine's result, or flip. Neither of those are likely to happen today. While I see the scumminess in his attacks on Pine, I feel I will know for certain by tomorrow. Rather go after someone who I feel is much more likely to be scum (Bub)

[Nocmen]

Wait, so Bub, why do you think I'm scum now? You haven't mentioned anything about that before, except for the "my case on you is the same as Pines".

So let's see....

Votes with
the reasoning
from others

[Nocmen]

Hohum: has anything changef for you over night? Are you still given up on the game? Seriously, why the hammer so quickly?

[Nocmen]

I agree with the MC now.

And Ctorj first. Though I'd prefer Ludi before Twisted.

[Nocmen]

I think that the scum are 2 of Ctorj/Magister/Hohum. That's gut feeling going into today. Gonna get a thorough reread on everyone still alive though between tonight and Monday.

[Nocmen]

I trust that.

Vote: Twistedspoon

[Nocmen]

Should we finish the MC before the hammer?

[Nocmen]

Ugh, I don't know what to believe now.

Twisted - hohum doesnt need to validate his sanity, he knows that he's sane from the pine and bunny flips, and I know that he's sane also from the result on me.

And where did all of a sudden you think I'm a godfather come from? You had me as one of the more town players, and now that the cop claims, you think i'm gf? Seems a bit quick to flip a read around.

I'm presuming that ctorj claimed vanilla from his post, so I'm the only claim left. Vanilla Town.

[Nocmen]

Please, confirm/prove your millerness today. Why wouldn't you do that right now?

[Nocmen]

EBWOP: Or is that the plan to confirm you? Lynching Ctorj?

[Nocmen]

Unvote

Not ending this quick today.

[Nocmen]

Explanation to that:

Look at the last line of ludi's post. It almost screams that he knows twisted will come up as town. The fact that he tells me and ctorj directly to shoot the other, it just doesn't sound like he's convinced with Twisted.

[Nocmen]

That, and the whole thing with the black gf already having been lynched.

[Nocmen]

Here's what I have to ask right now:

hohum: I repeat the question that twisted asked you previously.

Magister: I'd like to see the reasoning behind me and ctorj being scum.

Ctorj: I want a list of your reads today, who you think the remaining scum are, and why.

[Nocmen]

Nocmen, its easy.

Hohum: Claim Cop Guilty on twisted
Twisted Claim miller
ctorj
Noc
Lud

If twisted = scum, then hohum is town, I am still town, and it comes down to Noc or ctorj (because of godfather), but I'm probably going to vote Ctorj anyways.

However, if twisted actually = miller, hohum is still town (unless we don't believe claim, but i do) I am still town, twisted is town, Nocmen and ctorj remain and there are two scum. Ergo, both are scum

That's with your assumption that you are town. Only you know that if it's true or not.

[Nocmen]

Why do you think he's blackscum? I've tried and I can't really get a good read on which team he's on.

[Nocmen]

I'm convinced with Ctorj. Almost certain he's scum, but now it makes sense that he's black.

Vote: Ctorj

[Nocmen]

hohum: Do you think ctorj is town? Right now regardless of what Twisted is, I see ctorj as scum. The fact that we get a bonus by letting him help possibly confirm twisted makes it even better to lynch him today in my eyes.

[Nocmen]

What if I also said I wanted you to answer his question?

[Nocmen]

Now you're just being stubborn and arrogant with your role.

[Nocmen]

Just note: VLA until Monday, I'll be able to check in to the game daily, but only once or twice for an hour or so each.

[Nocmen]

You're right, that is a mediocre bread crumb. Dissappointed I didn't notice that until now.

And his ISO. notice voting both Gollum and Pine after their claims; makes sense as black scum.

Vote: Twistedspoon

[Nocmen]

Vote: Ctorj

Let's see what happens now

[Nocmen]

I rushed too much at the end. I looked at the no kill, thought "well maybe we NL", then realized that it would lead to another no-kill, failing to account for the fact that the cop could confirm everyone if that cycle happened, or the fact that THE COP WAS STILL ALIVE. Ugh, I'm a moron.