NY129-Mafia on Werewolf Island! (Game Over)

[Eldritch Lord]

I'm still reading and catching up, this is a really long D1. I don't remember days being this long, but its been a while since I've played. There is an incoming analysis that I'll drop either tonight or tomorrow afternoon. Sorry for the delay boys, EL is on it.

[Eldritch Lord]

Okay, seriously WTF @ the last 3 pages. I am confused as to whether jindori's claim is real or faked.

Right, Pine, and he needs to eliminate the eastside wolfpack to win. He did NOT say anything about eliminating townsfolk.

Yeah I'm sure jindori was just joking. I'm his mason partner and we wanted to dick around. So anyway let's get back to lynching Snake.

Sarcasm doesn't travel well by way of post. Anyway, C-Worl was a good lynch, if the claim is real then we have a guaranteed scum-lynch to save for a possible/probable lylo situation (or at the very least when having a mislynch isn't a certainty). If the claim is faked, then its just two players being completely idiotic. I'm going to focus on my case against C-Worl, because I think its the strongest and this entire jindori situation is confusing and needs to be cleared up by Kise and jindori ASAP. I mean this, I'll gladly address the situation once its clear, I'm not avoiding it, I just don't know what to make of it

AT ALL.

The play in itself may have been genius, but the subsequent handling of jindori's admission is possibly the worst non-vote related screw up I've seen here at MS.

What exactly do y'all want me to do to defend myself? Say I made a mistake by overreacting to something that Frost did? Even, though when I've played mafia I've always considered that to be scum to do. You want me to say I'm a bad player and that I simply made mistakes? Honestly, nothing I say right now will sway your decision that I should be lynched. I will tell you outright that I AM town. Believe what you want but either way look at both wagons. There are scum on them.

Appeal to emotion and admission to 'defenselessness'. I'm proud of town's initial reaction to this, I even think RF calls him out at some point for his AtE. "I AM town," is a really,

really

weak defense and he claims that nothing he can say will sway town's decision to lynch. In fact, its not even worth the effort for him to try. Like I said, I'm proud of town not giving into this and keeping the pressure on...unfortunately that doesn't last.

Defend the cases against me? Your cases are made entirely of posts that I made where tunnel vision affected my posting. Yes, I contradicted myself, I see that now, people do it all the time. I love how I make one post and I get crucified for making "an emotional" appeal when Pine did the exact same thing once he realized he accidentally skipped 5 pages. As for scum hunting.

Explicitly stating what you did doesn't qualify as a defense or make your previous action void. This is another "sorry" post. I learned a long time ago that sorry doesn't give your best friend their toy back, nor does it replace a priceless vase containing your late great-granduncle's ashes.

I'll take a small break from quoting your weak "defenses" in order to address the fact that ~20% of my time spent reading and catching up was wasted with your pointless ad-hominem and spammy posts. It seems your only defense other than sorry to to call other posters moronic or suggest that their IQ is low or something just as irrelevant to the situation.

RayFrost has tunnel vision on me which is a null point since it affects both town and scum equally. He's probably not scum because pushing a lynch so hard on a townie would make him an easy D2 lynch once I flipped. Thus he's probably town.

Town:
jindori and RayFrost (ironically the two most avid supporters of my lynch)

Null:
Everyone else on the wagons.

I also have a slight town read on NS and I still think Pie is scum.

Kr0b is Null and T-Bone is a town read for now.

When you finally do get around to posting the closest thing to a defense you've ever had, you clear the two avid pushers on your bandwagon. This is scummy to me, your logic for suggesting RayFrost is town is WIFOMish at best. This is clearly an appeal to the authority behind your bandwagon and catering to them in order to prevent yourself from being lynched. It really doesn't get much clearer than this,

if

I'm wrong and you're town, you are most certainly more concerned with self-preservation than catching scum. And considering that you've already claimed vanilla, that doesn't sit well with me at all.

Unvote; Vote: C-Worl

C-Worl's at L1. $5 says the person who hammers is scum.

Ironically, the towniest thing you've done all game. Still, it doesn't excuse that you've spent 90% of your time posting ad-hominem attacks and appeal to emotion, admission of defeat defenses trying to victimize yourself. Even more unfortunately, people are buying into it and the game has become a clusterfuck as of the past 3 pages -- which only benefits scum seeking to sow confusion. At any rate, I'm comfortable enough to:

Unvote
Vote: C-Worl

TL;DR (Get off MS): Your defenses are scummier than any of the reasons you're initially bandwagon'ed for. You defend yourself like pure scum, attack other players on a personal level, and consistently victimize yourself while contributing little to the game. Your three actual read contributions consisted of straw-manning and gross oversimplifications of players' positions. Die scum.

[Eldritch Lord]

EBWOP: I agree with Gorilla. Faking a daykill is just dirty tactics.

Honestly, modkill worthy.

Mod: Please make clear the policy on faking day actions.

Faking day actions, such as a daykill, is permitted. Gambits are not disallowed in any type of mafia game. -DH

It says brown. But notice the werewolves which means theres the possiblity of more than one faction of werewolves so consider me pseudo third party.

"Possibility"

I thought you knew for certain there was more than one faction of werewolves.

[Eldritch Lord]

unvote

vote: jindori

werewolf, third party, you know what, I don't care anymore he is claimed not town and i'm not going to let a player with a claimed non-town alignment live

had me fooled prior to this, oh well

This is bad logic, if he's telling the truth we win by letting him and his compatriots live. If he's lying, we have confirmed scum for a situation where it may be LyLo.

Jindori should make it through the day, there isn't much to be learned by lynching him. We'll be in an arbitrarily "better" position if we lynch him (compared to our position right now; not compared to our position if we were to lynch someone who would give us more information [ideally scum like C-Worl]), but given that there's virtually nothing to be learned from Jindori's flip that can't be examined already, he isn't a good lynch when we clearly have a mislynch and players like T-Bone/C-Worl are posting the way they are.

Basically a Jindori lynch is only good in the shortest term perspective, we'll be exactly where we are now tomorrow if we lynch him, minus some dead (probably) town-aligned roles.

[Eldritch Lord]

since i'm geussing eastside have similer mechnics to us since i now know cult mechnics are banned in normal games. They probally going to have some townie roles which you wouldn't expect on werewolf/mafia lynching me now would be the better of things.

Are you soft-claiming to have a werewolf PR? I doubt a werewolf PR would be so willing to self-sacrifice, so you're really tripping up here. It's already been stated that there aren't any cult mechanics, so bar you being a serial killer I don't see how the town makes any substantial gains through your lynch. It's really as simple as saving your lynch for tomorrow, I think there's more to be gained through the lynch of an extremely scummy claimed vanilla like C-Worl.

[Eldritch Lord]

EL: Yes, but at the same time, letting him live gives both anti-town factions an extra day. Say he's right and there are 8 anti-town in total, and we mislynch me for example. Now we need 9 days to get rid of them instead of 8. (excluding night kills). I don't think we'll be at the same place Day 2, with so many people defending him the way they have been. Pine for example. To say that we'll be in a bad place Day 2 is ignorant. A Day 1 lynch of scum is always beneficial.

He never claimed there were 4 of them, he said under 4. I don't know why you keep using that number, but I'd like it on the record that you are continuing to do so after jindori clarified his meaning and has stated under four several times. He is

CONFIRMED

scum, regardless of whether his particular faction is strictly anti-town or more of a pseudo-third party. Meaning that any reads you

"could

" have on someone defending him like Pine or, even myself if you interpret this as defending him, are already readily available and clear in their entirety. Lynching him doesn't confirm any suspicions or put anything in a new light, because we already

know

his alignment.

I would rather take longer and operate in a fashion that's logically sound than hope to get lucky and wrap the game up in the minimum number of days. Lynching him doesn't gain us anything unless he's a werewolf PR, and given his willingness to sacrifice himself, I

highly

doubt that is the case. Save him for a situation that's

significantly

less certain, at the very least for tomorrow.

The meat of it:

We either enter tomorrow with new reads on people on the C-Worl/T-Bone/Whoever bandwagon, and a confirmed scum ready to be lynched OR we enter tomorrow with a dead scum and no new information outside of night action flips. I'd rather not rely on a "good" night for a decent shot at tomorrow.

[Eldritch Lord]

Vote: C-Worl

This modkill doesn't really change anything, we already knew he was scum. My case on C-Worl stands.

[Eldritch Lord]

letting him live gives

both

anti-town factions an extra day.

(snip)

A Day 1 lynch of scum is always beneficial.

The first part of the quote is a tacit admission that one of the three known non-Town alignments is not anti-Town. More evidence of T-Bone as an eastside werewolf to heap onto the pile. It is also a logical fallacy. With multiple non-Town alignments, we would only be wasting a day if we mislynched AND the opposing non-Towns failed to kill him AND today would be the day we eliminated his entire side. And he isn't going anywhere. If his story sours, we can lynch him at any time.

Second part of the quote is true, which is why I look forward to a lynch of C-Worl or T-Bone today.

Wow, amazing catch Pine.

FoS: T-Bone

I am now okay with a T-Bone lynch--though I believe my case against C-Worl remains stronger, this is a pretty clear-cut slip and his logic is, indeed, fallacious.

[Eldritch Lord]

How is that an amazing catch EL? He took that quote out of context. Jindori said he was opposing another anti-town faction. 1+1 equals two. I am well aware that a third anti-town faction is possible as I have pointed out many times, but nice way to only see what you want to see.

It's an amazing catch because even in context, the quote makes the suggestion that you are aware that there are only two anti-town factions and its one that I missed.

The case against Pine being made for defending Jindori is absurd, mainly because the same case could have been made against myself if I had been caught-up when the whole thing went down. Regardless of whether or not he was a strictly anti-town role, it was the most logically sound thing to do to leave him alive for at least another day. "Defending him" = Keeping him alive because its the smartest thing for town to do going into Day 2. That, plus the fact that he was willing to self-sacrifice after the pressure increased (meaning he's likely, and now

confirmed

not to be a werewolf PR [something I suggested earlier, if you're having doubts about my intuition or a

supposed

penchant for "seeing only what I want to see"]), just made the case for leaving him alive today much stronger.

[Eldritch Lord]

I would be fine with a pine lynch but I also get bad vibes from EL and TC

Please clarify.

I see no "proof" that we have three anti-town factions. We KNOW there is Mafia, and we KNOW there is Westside Werewolves. We only have jindori's word that there are Eastside Werewolves. Caveat: still haven't read pages 24-25. I will, eventually. I think I'll need alcohol, though.

...Please catch up instead of making excuses in the form of caveats, it suggests that your judgments are knee-jerk reactions based off of thoughts that aren't well-informed or fully thought-out.

Anyway, I concede that given the context

not of the post

, but of the

surrounding discussion

, the scumslip isn't as strong as I had initially thought. You'll please note that I never held it to be conclusive evidence, and that my vote and case have consistently remained on C-Worl.

[Eldritch Lord]

I haven't read the game yet, but here are my thoughts: three scum teams in a 24-player is hilariously terrible. It's obvious that jindori's is a failed gambit, I seriously doubt the existence of East Side Werewolves until I see some flips proving otherwise. The existence of a West Side does NOT prove the existence of an East Side if we use Occam's Razor. Does the existence of a Yellow Mafia automatically mean there is a Red Mafia? No, it just means there is a Yellow Mafia.

This is a

social

science, implications make a world of difference in non-empirical situations. The existence of a Yellow Mafia would suggest, by descriptive convention, that there is a non-yellow mafia. Just as the existence of a short person implies that there is a tall person, descriptors are comparative. But this is linguistics and behavioral economics, and quite frankly could be argued for hours either way.

9 "Mafia" in a 24 player game is too many.

From the last page, I really want to lynch Pine right now.

There is no conclusive evidence that there is or is not a third party. 1/3 Rule suggests nine isn't

too

far-fetched. All the same, after some thought, I suggest we operate under the assumption that there are only two mafia factions, but do not rule out the possibility of a third faction or a serial killer role.

Nobody is helped by making statements like that before you know what's going on. I'd say the same thing if you FoS'd C-Worl. I don't like a Pine lynch in the short term, but I think it would be extremely informative for Day 2.

I am not looking forward to reading this game but I'll give it my best shot.

Next time, please read before you throw an FoS at someone. Doing so pre-disposes you before you're informed and provides and easy opportunity for mafia to start a bandwagon without actually taking responsibility for it.

[Eldritch Lord]

EBWOP:

@EL: Don't start with me. I'll re-address this after reading the two pages of likely-nothingness.

Is this a threat? A warning? I will start with you. I

will

read it as poor townie play, in the best case scenario, if you continue to post judgments and make assertions without being informed. Don't take 2 pages for granted, all it takes is one post for a huge scumslip, imagine you had missed pages 21 and 22, pretty significant posts on those pages. I will not argue with you about this, it is not beneficial to posit theories that could have already been debunked, it is

not

beneficial for town. On the contrary, it will aid the scum in misdirecting and confusing the town.

[Eldritch Lord]

- I really didn't like Elrich lord trying to "save" a, as he was saying it, confirmed scum lynch.
- Flavour is not allowed in Normals. So there is no possibility of an "East side mafia" or only "West side Werewolves".

1. I'd like to point out that

(at least)

RayFrost, myself, T-Bone, Nobody Special, AND Pine all share or have, at one point in this game, shared this logic or at least appreciated it as a sound approach going into Day 2. Also, the gambit would have been successful because I successfully identified jindori as a werewolf

non-PR.

My reasoning is logically sound, please provide a counterpoint if you believe that its not, consider this a formal request.
2. Very interesting,

very

interesting. I'm going to go read the rules for normals, its obviously been a very long time since I've played.

[Eldritch Lord]

I was about to tell you to dispense with the techno-babble and other bullshit but then you posted this:

I suggest we operate under the assumption that there are only two mafia factions, but do not rule out the possibility of a third faction or a serial killer role.

This is what I'm trying to say...assuming there are East Side Werewolves and operating on that premise until we see a flip is foolhardy.

Also, don't tell me how to play the game. Ever. You can tell me what I'm doing is anti-town or mafia-like or whatever other shit but this is how I scumhunt and if I don't have time to read the game right now, I don't have time to read the game right now. Don't lecture me.

ConSpiracy: flavor is allowed in Large Normals so long as it is Mafia related. Also, read Jindori's flip.

Techno-babble? You brought up Occam's Razor in a game of mafia!

I agreed with you in effect, but not in method. I still don't, and I

will

continue to advise that you play the game in a way that benefits town the most. Don't think of it as a lecture, think of it as a friendly reminder before I start counting it against you as a sign of poor play, or in the worst case scenario, a scumtell. You can get upset as you want about it, I will continue to call you out on it as I deem appropriate. You have your method of scumhunting, I have mine.

Well, that's good to know. Thank you for correcting him.

[Eldritch Lord]

WAIT! Let me get one thing straight. Jindori confirmed himself to be nontown and 3 people defended him.

FOS: Kise

I'm disappointed in this one.

FOS: Eldrich Lord

Not only did he not want to kill the antitown but he tried to come after me after the reveal of a claimed antitown. Really?

VOTE: Vote: Pine

He has the most votes on him out of all the people and now he's trying to target T-Bone, because T-Bone wanted to lynch a claimed antitown, really? REALLY?!?

I'll have to go back through and see if anyone else argued against Jindori's lynch after his claim.

I challenge you, and others, to provide a counter-point to the reasoning that it was for the best to allow jindori to live for a day. There is plenty of posted reasoning, your post does not truly contribute to the discussion in a beneficial manner and is the kind of post I built my case against you upon.

[Eldritch Lord]

Occam's Razor is a great tool for the game of Mafia especially when sorting out night actions. It has served me well. Your entire first paragraph was techno-babble. XP

I'd agree that you could apply the razor in order to sort night actions, it seems to me entirely different to use it to make assumptions about naming conventions. And, nope, its actually pretty commonly accepted that descriptors are comparative, since that's their function in language. To call something big does indeed imply the existence of something small. This is a matter of linguistics and behavioral economics, so I'm not quite sure what here is "techno-babble" since both of our arguments are heuristic.

My playstyle is very in-the-moment. That's why I don't replace in anymore, because I play best and find Mafia most engaging when I'm playing in what's happening now. I hate reading or catching up, but I understand it's something I have to do. Excuse me if I start playing the game now though.

Well I'll just hope that you don't miss pages like 21 and 22 before posting in the future and in the meantime continue to chastise you for playing poorly. You're excused.

However, I'm sure you can agree with me that the setup speculation is incredibly stupid and looking for jindori's scumbuddy is our best shot at the moment. Not sure who that is yet.

I will also take up your counterpoint once I've read the game.

Yes I can, and it has been since we found out he was scum. Great.

[Eldritch Lord]

1. I'd like to point out that (at least) RayFrost, myself, T-Bone, Nobody Special, AND Pine all share or have, at one point in this game, shared this logic or at least appreciated it as a sound approach going into Day 2. Also, the gambit would have been successful because I successfully identified jindori as a werewolf non-PR. My reasoning is logically sound, please provide a counterpoint if you believe that its not, consider this a formal request.

As far as I know, you were the first one telling us to save a jindori lynch for a mislynch. Provide a counterpoint if not, consider this too as a formal request.

@ 8:42 Apr 3

Also: werewolves = werewolves, whether it's more than one or not is meh. I suggest we leave indori alive for a night or two. Tcwalren's scummy, but c-worl and snakeplissken are scum.

You have yet to provide the counterpoint I asked for, ConSpiracy. Consider this a formal reminder.

ConSpiracy: flavor is allowed in Large Normals so long as it is Mafia related. Also, read Jindori's flip.

I quote from the rules:

See Above.

So no, I still believe we have 3 scum-teams.

Hm, this is getting interesting.

[Eldritch Lord]

Also, as for Eldritch's argument. Vtoing claimed antitown also helps find the rest of their faction. Anyone in jin's faction should have been smart enough to bus the wagon after Jin opened his mouth. Therefore we could look at those who voted him. Also, we also get to see who defended against his wagon (I believe that would be you)

False comparison and straw-man. I said we should keep him alive for a day, not that nobody should vote for him. I did not "defend against his wagon," all I did was post my personal reasoning in order to reinforce the suggestion that the most logical course of action for town would be to leave him alive for the day.

The line,

"Anyone in jin's faction should have been smart enough to bus the wagon after Jin opened his mouth"

doesn't even need explanation for why its poor logic, I think if you re-read it you'll see what I'm getting at here.

Your other post is a summary, but doesn't really address my concern with the way you initially defended yourself. You gain town points for it, but my vote will stand, though there are others I have scum-reads on, my read on you remains among the strongest and I think there's a lot more to be learned through your death than anyone else's.

[Eldritch Lord]

My other post wasn't about me at all. It was meant to be a summary of everything involving jin. Meaning it wasn't supposed to address your concerns with how I initially defended myself. Also, you're ignoring the fact that I pointed out how I wasn't suspicious in your eyes until the jindori stuff blew up. And also how I was the biggest wagon at the time. Also, considering your points on me were posted by others, I feel no need to answer you about them considering that they are not your own ideas.

They are my impressions, my case was made against you in my first "real" post in the game (my second, after the one in which I acknowledge that I am replacing in) so you've been suspicious in my eyes ever since I joined the game. The points I've made about your inability to defend yourself and your scum-like admissions of defeat and appeals to emotion have been pointed out by other players, which is why you should address them (even if it means giving meta examples of your playstyle), because

those opinions are

not

mine alone

. (Though they are my collective read on you, in ISO -- my method of catching up in games I replace into involves reading each player in ISO and trying my best to ignore posts which

interpret

the actions of other players, and then review the case I build

including

the interpretations of other players...so the read is more or less

ALL

me minus information I deem to recently brought to light to repeat or reasoning which is voided by a more intelligent/observant player's response.)

[Eldritch Lord]

Interesting, Pine, that you would call out Raud for giving C-Worl credit for his "contribution" but not me. I don't like it when people buddy up to me. #MinorPost

[Eldritch Lord]

Wow, not so much to catch up on after my V/LA then....

I would like to thank C-Worl for that summing up which was more than helpful. So for now I'll give you a pass on my lame reasoning. My next candidate was Ray Frost for his defence for our modkilled Jin, but he's replaced out which actually makes me think that he's either Vanilla or anti town as you rarely see a Town PR drop out. In fact Im willing to guess he's anti town.

Vote Reckamonic

Im not convinced by the Pine Wagon starting up right now and C-Worl has redeemed himself for the time being. Kise is starting to get on my scumdar with his impersonation of Fate now. (Is this catching?)

I'm about to read your posts in ISO because this just screams 'C-Worl Scumbuddy.'

Pine's #740 and #741 are posts which explain my position on the matter of C-Worl's summary fairly well.

[Eldritch Lord]

unvote

As a courtesy. I'm not wagoning a player while they're still catching up on the thread, especially when I first voted to see how rayfrost would respond. The way the votes are piling up seems opportunistic (I hate that term, but really, piling votes on a player who's not here to defend, what else can you call it?)

Also, people giving C-Worl town points for making a summary post are either stupid or scum. Making a post like that offers no real risk to the person making it (scum want to avoid risks) and doesn't actually help with finding mafia? If you find the information useful, fine, but saying it's an "omg sooper town" move is just flat-out wrong.

Call it meta, but your lack of willingness to commit to a wagon, combined with your inability to pick up on things we've previously agreed are universal scumtells coming from C-Worl's defense makes me think something is off about you this game.

Also not in character for you is that you've posted very little content yourself. You know in poker a lot of players make the mistake of looking for their own tells, I hope that isn't what you're doing by criticizing C-Worl's summary post as a 'lack of contribution'.

For now,

FoS: gorilla

[Eldritch Lord]

You have yet to provide the counterpoint I asked for, ConSpiracy. Consider this a formal reminder.

I meant that you were the first one to say we should save him for a lynch further on. That is stupid, a confirmed werewolf should be lynched immediately. Saving him to be lynched won't do any good since he would never be night-killed.
None of the others said saving him for a later lynch as far as I know.

I quoted a post which said just that! And its not stupid, I have posted reasons why it isn't stupid. Your counterpoint doesn't make sense, the idea isn't for him to be nightkilled, its for us to lynch another scummy player and save him for the next day or a situation where we don't have a mislynch. Killing him today wouldn't get us any information we didn't already have after his scumclaim, and it wouldn't stop the nightkill from his faction. But since you insist (despite twice now, having been answered successfully) on continuing to say that I was the only one to have suggested "saving" him:

If you don't believe me on it, feel free to get shot in the face. Harumph.

Also: werewolves = werewolves, whether it's more than one or not is meh. I suggest we leave indori alive for a night or two. Tcwalren's scummy, but c-worl and snakeplissken are scum.

Guys, please decide between these two. They are both scum, but I have no certainty that they are mafia or otherwise.

:goodposting:

I will only agree to leave jindori alive for one night, though. No reason to let him live tomorrow if he doesn't die tonight. Thoughts?

jindori is going to eventually get killed by westside wolves anyway, let's not waste a lynch on him right now. If he's still alive a day or two from now, and eastside DOES look anti-Town, then yeah. tclawren is looking more and more like scum with every post, either westside wolves or, more likely, Mafia. I say Mafia is more likely, because he seems to care more that jindori is a wolf and less that he's eastside alignment.

However I see your point about saving his lynch for another day. I wasn't calling you scum or claiming you were defending him, I just didn't understand your point. However, I also agree with NS is that he shouldn't live more than a day.

I will not continue to argue with you about whether or not I was the only

or even first

one to suggest "saving" jindori's lynch for another day. I clearly was not, and this is the third, I believe, time that I've proven it. If you would like to contend my logic, please do so appropriately by directly answering

my

points rather than attacking ghosts and shadows that you've conjured up about "saving jindori so that he can be nightkilled."

I would recommend reading post #623.

[Eldritch Lord]

Gorilla: Post 590/Post 1 in my ISO.

[Eldritch Lord]

(A bunch of stuff about people not having justification for jumping on bandwagons.)

This is just a lazy town, you got the same thing from Nobody Special and Seraphim for a post, though both of them did make an honest effort at contribution. They just don't want to read and end up throwing votes on wagons while they sort-of catch up. I think this is a null-tell in a game with players like this.

Basically voting Gorilla, first real contribution this game with a bunch of reads.

I can get behind getting some people to talk a little bit. Gorilla is one of them, and ISO 15/16

are

pretty bad.

Unvote

Vote: Gorilla

At the end of the day, I'd still rather lynch C-Worl though.

[Eldritch Lord]

oh i see i got upset by the use of what i consider a dirty tactic in a mafia game that was used to out a scum so that makes me his scumbuddy for believing something is against the spirit of the game, hrm yes

eldritch lord agreed with me about the nature of that tactic, making his vote fairly hypocritical

It's the combination of the two posts, to be honest. But it's really meta more than anything, you've barely posted at all, when you usually have so much to say in a game of mafia. I'd like to see you post more, your playstyle this game is very atypical of what I'm used to seeing out of you. You have a tendency to post jokingly whenever you're scum, often addressing me directly. I'll read and post an analysis in ISO on you later tonight or tomorrow.

[Eldritch Lord]

gorilla - 2 (tclawren, Eldritch Lord)

He's being voted by two majorly scummy players.

You still haven't posted any justification for why you think I'm scummy, aside from the fact that I "replaced into a scummy slot".

[Eldritch Lord]

After the read (mostly Gorilla's 845 and 848), I like Gorilla a lot more. I don't like C-Worl as scum upon reinvestigation -- he seems like town just trying too desperately to stay alive. He reminds me of my first forum game as town, almost.

Unvote

Snake is posting horribly and doesn't seem town, but jindori was so willing to vote him which makes me hesitate.

This alone is enough for me to be uncomfortable lynching Snake. He does seem anti-town, and its possible he simply wasn't part of jindori's faction though, so:

Vote: SnakePlissken

I'd like to get more content out before the deadline, though. Everyone here has made scummy posts, myself included in retrospect, which makes this a really difficult situation to judge. I'd like to hear more out of Snake for now, though.

Also

FoS: tClawren

for basically his last ten posts. Detailed read on him incoming.

[Eldritch Lord]

Good luck, DH.

Probably just a typo, but I'd like EL to address this contradiction:

Snake is posting horribly and doesn't seem town, but jindori was so willing to vote him which makes me hesitate.

This alone is enough for me to be

uncomfortable lynching Snake

. He does seem anti-town, and its possible he simply wasn't part of jindori's faction though, so:
Vote: SnakePlissken

Emphasis is mine.

No it's not a typo, its a contradiction. Thanks for giving me an avenue to slip through if I were scum though. It's me publicizing my thought process as to how I feel about lynching Snake. I'm really not sure about it still, but I think the added weight my vote gives Snake might be enough to get him to talk.

[Eldritch Lord]

NO!!!!!

My God Cam

YOU'RE SO STUPID

!!!!!

He's voting Snake just 'cause everyone else is.

NO!!!!!

My God Cam

YOU'RE SO STUPID

!!!!!

He's voting Snake just 'cause everyone else is.

You do know I assumed that. I just wanted to see what his answer to my question would be. I would still like to know.

EL, if you are town, then are you voting Snake because you want to force a claim?

Unvote; Vote: Snakeplisken

Holy shit you guys are dumb. I really,

really

hate ad-hominem, but these posts...just...well, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35TbGjt-weA

He wants snake to talk, not claim. He never used the word "claim", and thinking that makes no sense when Snake is at L-5. Snake's been varyingly useless/scummy, and he's saying by voting him he's hoping to put pressure on him to post content or else get lynched.

This guy gets it. In fact he's practically restating

exactly

what I said.

[Eldritch Lord]

I will be V/LA for an unspecified amount of time, probably the next week or so. Broke up a fight and got my AC completely torn, so typing is tough. I'll find someone to dictate to within the week though, in the meantime:

Unvote

Noted. Feel better.

[Eldritch Lord]

I really,

really

hate ad-hominem

Holy shit you guys are dumb.

are dumb

And this is precisely why I called you retarded, the first quote is a qualifier for the second. As in, I really hate having a torn AC, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do to stop some kid on the street from getting his teeth curb-stomped out of his mouth.

[Eldritch Lord]

crackheaded catchup spree complete.
Kise is on his game, and I would happily sheep him until the end.

I would recommend scum go for shooting Reckamonic. Shit, I would.
Loving the Snake wagon.
Pine is a good choice for scum.
MrZepher is prettty much confirmed scum.
Eldritch Lord is scummy scum scum.

NS IS TOWN.

Literally a scum post.

[Eldritch Lord]

And this is precisely why I called you retarded, the first quote is a qualifier for the second. As in, I really hate having a torn AC, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do to stop some kid on the street from getting his teeth curb-stomped out of his mouth.

lolwut? I guess I am retarded b/c I don't know what the hell you mean.

You claim I'm ad homing you (when I wasn't) and that you don't like it but you turn around and ad hom me and Cam and I pointed that out. And I fail to see how this has ANYTHING to do with that.

I think your just pissed off I called you scum.

Are you kidding me? I didn't claim you were ad homming me at all, I was qualifying my ad hom (which I just said explicitly!) and then providing another example of qualifying a statement.

Jesus Christ you are thick.

[Eldritch Lord]

Kise is on his game, and

I would happily sheep him until the end.

Nice brochill, please don't. Kise's play is extremely pro-town. He's on my town-list.

I would

recommend scum go for shooting Reckamonic.

Shit, I would.

Would you? Interesting observation and wording.

Pine is a good choice for scum.

Agreed:

Notes speed of wagon forming, doesn't call pine town. Conclusion: Afraid of Pine scumflip, Pine is west werewolf.

EL is scummy scum scum

Why?

NS IS TOWN.

Why?

Conclusion: Nachomamma is pretty clearly either mafia or town, definitely not a wolf.

Hrm. I've never been a fan of the Snake lynch, but never had much in the way of objections, either. Could somebody put together a cohesive case, so I can make a decent judgment?

Think for yourself, lazy town post.

@SNAKE: You are getting off V/LA today. If you do not post a sufficient defense of yourself plus some reads about this game by tomorrow night, We'll say 11:00 pm EDT, you are dead to me. This game needs to move and it has died since you left.

Considering how hard you're pushing on NS, this comes off as scummy to me. Giving an ultimatum like this when you think someone else is scum just doesn't sit right with me.

[Eldritch Lord]

Vote: SnakePlissken

[Eldritch Lord]

Ah, shit, damn this broken arm!

[Eldritch Lord]

@Nacho: I didn't like Kise's play on principle, its still extremely beneficial for town. It's the same as winning a divisional title because the star player of the opposing team throws the game. I'm glad to have the victory, but I'd still want that asshole thrown out of the league.

[Eldritch Lord]

Fuck, fuck, fuck I didn't mean to do that I was in a hurry because it hurts to get into a position where I can type and I didn't read the post.

God damn it.

[Eldritch Lord]

^^^^^^^^^^

lololololololololol

literally a scumpost

[Eldritch Lord]

^^^^^^^^^^

lololololololololol

literally a scumpost

For someone wh is

supposedly

on V/LA you sure are active.

i have a broke arm you fucking chotch

also sheeping and looking at somebody as potentially town are two completely different things

im going to stop addressing my ad-hom. because its irrelevant and you aren't getting it

are you 14?

[Eldritch Lord]

lmao that hammer. lmao.

This guy is scum too right, EL?

Worst Mafia Player 2011

lmao that hammer. lmao.

classic Shanko

[Eldritch Lord]

I also want to see Eldritch explain why he thinks Kise is the most town.

Don't think that anymore.

@Kise: I want a full claim and your actions last night now.

Vote: RaudhrGarm

I don't like how you seem to be accusing Kise pretty heavily and then throwing your vote at Raud.
VOTE: tclawren

[Eldritch Lord]

Fair enough. Oh, and was anybody else intrigued by Nero Cain's decision to laugh at Eldritch's hammer of Snake? Seemed a little out of place.

Pointing something like this out without interpreting it brings it into light without taking responsibility for its implications.

I don't know how it could be relevant beyond him finding it amusing that I made such an error.

[Eldritch Lord]

conspiracy's post is a dumb post but not convincingly a scum post

I read ConSpiracy's post the same way: Stupid as shit. But the people who jumped on it right off the bat are sticking out as scummier, to me, than his post.

It seems like a classic case of jumping on a stupid/easy post. Especially if you consider the wealth of other information available in a 45 page D2 game to vote somebody so quickly on a post as stupid as that, ignoring all your other reads, is scummy.

[Eldritch Lord]

The second quote very explicitly says SINCE THE JIN AFFAIR (he even bolded it himself), which from my understanding, came after his initial "misguided town" read. The fact that tcl is ignoring Roud's explanation and trying to push it as some huge contradiction is beyond me, and in my opinion, super scummy.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Eldritch Lord]

reads & opinions can change, yes, but you still haven't offered any reasons for why your read changed and saying you've wanted him lynched since "the jin affair" completely ignores that you wrote him off as town at one point. to me it really looks like you're squirming right now. you need to justify your reads changing or i'm going to assume you're BSing and get you lynched

I do like Raud for scum, but I like tclawren even more. Opposite scum factions, possibly? That would explain the duality of the response to this "revolutionary" find, even given the timeline confirming that it is, indeed, a slip of some kind or a contradiction.

I am lead to believe this much in the way I am lead to believe mcx is always the godfather.

@EL-Why is that scummy? I think there is a possibility that Kise is town, but I need to be persuaded to that fact. In the meantime, I put my vote on someone who deserves more attention in general this game.

The night targets make me think you're scummy. I do agree with getting Raud to talk, but your reaction to his "slip" seemed kneejerk, as I

highly

doubt you've memorized the timeline of his posts -- and you did go back quite a long time to find the contradictory post, which makes me think that if you had read it in ISO you would have bothered to post the timeline of the contradiction right away rather than leaving room for such easy doubt (I mean, he bolded it and everying -- even if it was a slip, or lie, or dumb move or whatever).

Your interpretation of Raud as jumping off of Pine as an excuse to get on

Snake's

wagon

instead of

Cworl's

is interesting to me though given that C-Worl was so close to being lynched and Pine and Jindori shared the same number of votes. In fact, Raud had this to say about the easiest lynch target at the time he unvoted Pine:

C-Worl: I still think that he's town who both scum teams saw as an easy target to get lynched.

Given that Raud is lynched and flips scum, it seems pretty clear to me who at least one of his partners is. To me, it doesn't make sense to buddy up to a scummy player, avoid hopping on his wagon, and then interpret him as town. If C-Worl didn't have so many weak points then I'd agree that this might be a smart move, but C-Worl is such an easy lynch that this just wouldn't make sense.

Given that a direct role claim makes for an easy bus decision, it may be worth noting that before the lock, Raud's vote was on Jindori.

Theoretical Teams:

Hm, in fact seeing that both C-Worl and Raud are sitting on Pine after the jindori flip AND they both move their vote within the space of two vote counts (C-Worl to tclawren and Raud to Snake) at which point tclawren transfers his vote to Pine before switching to Snake himself (as one of the later voters, I might add), I'm inclined to believe we would be looking at Raud/C-Worl/jindori/Pine(?) - tclawren/Reck(?)/Kise(?)/? in the event that Raud is as werewolf as I suspect he is and that Kise's gambit was a rolefishing maneuver instead of a clever townie move.

I mean does anyone else find it odd that tclawren, who had been almost submissive in his infrequent posting, jumps on Kise

right off the bat

, but then

doesn't vote for him?

Despite that theorycrafting, I honestly like RF/Reck (It should be noted that this is mainly because of RF's D1) as town unless he somehow had a N0 scum investigation on C-Worl, and I am inclined to believe Kise is a pro-town role and possibly just a pro-gambitting vanilla.

I guess, in summary: I'd like both of you lynched, and then C-Worl.

[Eldritch Lord]

@EL: I had a feeling you would say that about the night kills. I got bad feelings about you regarding them also.
Regarding his iso, I didn't mesmerize his iso obviously, but I certainly did look it over when I voted for him about a page before I pointed out his slip. When he said that he had always wanted a pine lynch, something didn't sound right and I looked it up to make sure. I was right.

Yeah, but you sure had a lot to say to Kise at the beginning of the day and didn't even address me until I called you out on it. This sticks out as scummy to me.

Gorilla should have a convincing reason as to why Raud should live today and (depending on flips and targets - he claims to have been roleblocked) die tomorrow.

(Followed by C-Worl, who is

still

obviously scum.)