Mafia 125: Khan's Game of Mafia (Game Over)

[RedCoyote]

PASSIVE ABILITIES

• Ascetic: You are immune to all active abilities except kill.
  
• Bulletproof Vest (X): You can survive X attempts at your life. X may equal infinity.
  
• Day-talk: You can day-talk in the following thread (QT Link).
  
• Double-Voter: Your vote counts twice.
  
• Godfather: If investigated by a Cop, the result always be "Not Dangerous" (unless the ability is blocked, etc.). If investigated by a Gunsmith, the result will always be "No Result".
  
• Hated: It takes one less vote than normal to lynch you.
  
• Innocence:
  
• Known Identity: The mentioned group knows your identity.
  
• Lover: When your partner dies, you die as well.
  
• Macho: You will die if you are protected.
  
• Miller: If investigated by a Cop, the result will always be "Dangerous" (unless the ability is blocked, etc.). If investigated by a Gunsmith, the result will always be "Can Kill" (unless the ability is blocked, etc.).
  
• Night-talk: You can night-talk in the following thread (QT Link).
  
• Paranoid Gun Owner: If you are targetted with any ability except "Kill", you kill whomever targets you.
  
• Unlynchable: You cannot be lynched.
  
• Vengeful: After you are lynched, you may kill one of the players that voted to lynch you.
  
• Voteless: You may vote, but it doesn't count.

I don't see anything about post restrictions here. Am I missing something? Is this some sort of inside joke?

[RedCoyote]

I feel as though the whole post-restriction thing was a hapless and pointless event. Sure it made a semi-interesting start to this game, but it appears to be finished on page three where the participants are like "well we really don't have post restrictions hur hur."

Spyrex picked up on my sentiments exactly. I'm genuinely confused about it. I'll tell you one thing though, I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that I wasn't the only one who was confused about it. I'll just bet you some of our players were pretending like they knew what was going down, when in reality they had no clue. username is aiming toward Antihero, and Spyrex thinks Gorrad is fluffing his way through it. Both are reasonable votes, I think, but if I were to pick one I'd lean more toward Antihero. To clarify, I think Antihero was pretending like he knew what was going on in order to make himself look townie. I'm willing to elaborate on this if anyone would like. I don't think the right move was to pretend you knew what nocase/inHim was talking about, but to respond with something between skepticism and curiosity.

Vote: Antihero

---

In class no time to read through.

Vote: Antihero

If you didn't read, why are you voting?

---

What is your time zone? So people don't blame you for lurking when you've actually been sleeping.
Do you believe that people will do stupid things to try and be smart?

You're just going to have to accept the fact that I'll very rarely be posting at the same time as anyone. But, like, now, or a few hours earlier, would be when you could expect most of my posts. Yes is the answer to your second question.

---

I don't see the cases on Gorrad and Chevre here, can anyone help?

Who

do

you see the cases on?

And curiouswhatever, is that what you do to players like Dutch? We're humans; we all make mistakes. You could have just told him to answer your question(s?) instead of voting him, like Jerbs.

Interesting. In what other ways are you like Dutch? Perhaps you two have the same alignment?

---

Can you go further into detail? I cannot really defend against three to four word case points.

Why?

---

Works for me.

Unvote, Vote: Chevre

Why is it that I always have such extreme opinions of you, Kat? Either you seem really townie or really scummy. Right now you seem really scummy.

---

^Wasted votes make me cry on the inside.

Why is it a wasted vote? I'd go so far as to say any player could still be lynched at this point.

---

- The funny thing about Chevre's ~huge textwall of doom~ is that for the most part it's a literal description of the events she's analysing. The actual analysis - the stuff that other people actually look for - only takes up maybe 20% of the total wordcount. I don't think it's scummy, it seems genuine to me - it's just a little amusing.

Thanks for pointing this out. I agree completely. This isn't something I'm prepared to vote Chevre on, but I don't think her post is as jaw dropping as it's being made out to be either. There is a lot of fluff in it, even though there is a lot of content as well.

---

We haven't heard anything from RedCoyote, werewolf55, or Kmd(numbers). Don't know what that means, just throwing that out there.

I posted earlier. You can use the "Display all posts by user" function in the future if you want to actually want to check on something like that before stating it as though it were fact.

---

I'm going to keep my vote where it is now, but I see a couple of viable candidates that I could easily move to.

[RedCoyote]

I see the case on farside, Gorrad, and Antihero, Seraphim. See a few other votes around, don't think they're cases though - mainly Jerbs and Dutch one.

Wait, you just said you didn't see the case on Gorrad, so I wanted to know what case you did see. By see I hope we're both on the same page as synonymous for "accept" or "see as valid". You listed Gorrad again, so where exactly is Gorrad in your view?

Additionally, you're not voting despite the fact you "see" several cases being made against people. Tell me we're misunderstanding each other because otherwise I really am not liking the way you're coming across so far.

---

RedCoyote, if DrippingGoofball voted for you and gave you those "tells" for reasons, how would you defend against them?

I don't like the way you approached it. DGB attacked you in her own cutesy way, but I think we both got the jist of it. So the idea that you can't respond to her case unless it's laid out in a certain way causes me to make that emoticon face in reality.

---

RC, what are you babbling about?

I don't like the way you started the game, but when I really go back and look at your posts, I can't honestly rank you scummier than Kat right now.

Unvote

;

Vote: Katsuki

Kat, you're going to have to give us something better than what you have. I especially do not like your Chevre vote.

Also, there are plenty of lazy people on this site. Jerbs isn't one of them. Try again.

Why are you in such hardcore defend Jerbs mode? He can speak for himself too, you know.

---

I'm not sure what i'm trying to prove.
I just feel like pointing some things out.

Huh? Clarify this for me.

Why is everyone so confusing this game? Is it just me? I'm not even prepared to touch the farside/Korlash battle. The best I gather, it's an argument over whether one person has seen awkward townie play before or something? Ugh, I feel like this is such a lame start to what could otherwise be a really enjoyable game (although I'll admit I have really been enjoying DGB's posts). That's not to say it won't get better of course.

[RedCoyote]

Re: Chevre wall, I see no pro-town reasoning for typing such a giant wall of text at this point of the game, considering the amount of people who would actually read it (not very many). He was asked for reads on three people, and instead of responding with clear answers, he gives us this giant monstrosity. It's essentially equivalent to not having answered the question IMO.

This is all after the fact though. You already voted Chevre before this wall. You don't need to clarify this point, you need to clarify why you jumped on her to begin with. Because DGB told you to?

---

You are all singly voting for players that might be viable lynch candidates. If you want that player lynched, convince us.

Let me preface this by saying that I think I can be persuaded onto the Chevre wagon without much arm twisting. I think Chevre is a little too high strung right now, and it's striking me as panicky. Especially that line about how she can't defend herself unless you formally confront her with a case.

As far as my vote goes, look at Kat's post 159 and tell me if you are comfortable with that person on your wagon. I don't know Kat to be convinced that easily, and it just seems really lazy. I would cut her more slack if she said something like, "I like where DGB's going, and I want to build on it, but I'm a little busy right now. I'm still going to vote though."

As it stands, Chevre might work for her, but her vote does not work for me.

---

Just look at all his posts and everything you find is scummie or atleast something a town idiot would do.

Can you stop with the WIFOM? It's not going to convince anyone saying that a scum would or wouldn't do X.

I agree with Chevre, your choice seems a bit pointless.. you're probably just voting Chevre because that is a large wagon...

This is a big allegation that I think is unwarranted. You should expand on this, or I'm just going to assume you are slinging mud here.

---

This looks like a fantabulous lynch candidate to me.

Are you kidding? He hasn't even posted yet. Why would we lynch someone who has given us nothing to work with?

---

I like Cyberbob and Seraphim's last two posts. I skimmed over Spyrex's ninja'd post above me. It looks aimless at first glance, which is really uncharacteristic of him. The quotes have no authors attributed. Ugh. Cyberbob, do you not get where I'm coming from or do you think I'm just playing the "confusion/frustration" card as a tactic?

[RedCoyote]

Ah, okay, sorry. I see where you're coming from now, Spy. That'll do nicely. I retract my kneejerk statement.

On a sidenote, I love how everyone in this game decided to change their avatars at the same time.

[RedCoyote]

What? You can't be serious. Lynch someone before they can post?

Someone tell me you two are just pulling my leg, because this is one of the very few absolutes I'd have about the game of Mafia. You don't lynch someone before letting them talk. I mean, what the hell are we supposed to do with the results, regardless of what he flips?

[RedCoyote]

Now explain what about Sera's post you liked.

Chevre's post is a lot of noise and her reads don't look paticularly well constructed either. The actual reads themselves are few and far between and not easy to pick out on a casual read. It's not pro-town, there's no reason to think that it does.

I generally agree with this, although I'm less inclined to think of it as anti-town and moreso that Chevre was being annoying. But some of you, ckd especially, were over the moon with her because of it, and I can't really figure out why.

I have no idea if they are scum or not but right now my highest scumreads are Chevre, SpyreX, and Antihero. Chevre, well, I think I've covered that. SpryeX has almost been a non-presence and generally he tends to be a big personality. He seems incredibly indecisive in this game. Antihero is spouting bullshit. Cyberbob has outlined why. I could see all three of them as scum together but I don't know if they'd all be so blatant about it.

I think his scumreads are pretty good, although I disagree with Spyrex (but he hasn't had that big of a presence, truth be told).

---

I don't think DGB meant to lynch KMD right then and there. I believe she called him a "good lynch candidate."

Why are you making excuses on behalf of DGB? She's a big girl, and she can talk to me if she wants to.

You can't have a read on someone who hasn't posted. And don't start with some meta nonsense, because, although occasionally acceptable, this would definitely not be a time.

---

So I'll join a wagon on KMD if there is more interest

And to what do you base this on, Dutch?

---

A townie wouldn't fear joining such a wagon for the lulz.

You didn't propose an RVS wagon. You said he was a lynch candidate. These are two different things, hon.

My contention is that you cannot have a scumread on a player who hasn't posted.

You're a serious contender for the Not-Reading-The-Game LIFETIME ACHIEVEMENT Award.

What

is

this all about, Xalxe? I could see you skimming and making an honest mistake, but then you supposedly went back over it and misread the posts a second time?

---

Really tho, what harm can bandwagoning a lurker do? This game has been going on for 4 days, and he's already confirmed to play. Why are you so keen on not letting votes onto kmd?

That clearly wasn't the intent. In retrospect it may seem like that because DGB is backing off it, but there's no way I'm going to buy someone is scum because they lurked the first four days of a game. No chance.

---

What about Sera?

What about Kat, for goodness sakes...

I feel like I'm the only person here weighing every person on their merits.

---

"OH MY GOD DRIPPINGGOOFBALL WHY DID YOU DO THAT THAT WAS SO RASH I DIDNT MENTION ANYTHING AT FIRST BUT THEN I REMEMBERED THAT THIS GAME HAS BEEN SO SRS BSNS SO FAR AND I SHOULDNT HAVE BEEN EXPECTING THAT DAYKILL ATTEMPT TO BE A JOKE WHY DID YOU DO IT DRIPPINGGOOFBALL WHY WHY WHY"

Agreed.

Looking at this with a bias of having missed the event, I don't see why it would be implausible for someone to assume DGB was acting like, I don't know, a goofball. Chevre is right. I dislike both DGB and Cyber's attempts to frame this bigger than it is.

Reactionfishing doesn't work when it's just part of your repertoire. She even clues you in by reminding you everytime you read her name!

[RedCoyote]

Oh, and Spy, who is after Gorrad to you?

[RedCoyote]

Oh, you guys like lists, huh? Well let me show you a this little dandy.

The Best Lynches

Kat
Runner
Antihero

The Okay Lynches

Gorrad
Dutch
Chevre
Cyberbob

???

Gorrad
inHim
SpyreX
Kmd
DGB
werewolf
ckd

The Good Guys

Jerbs
farside
iamausername
nocase
Xalxe
Korlash

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP:

The Best Lynches

Kat
Runner
Antihero

The Okay Lynches

Gorrad
Dutch
Chevre
Cyberbob

???

Seraphim

inHim
SpyreX
Kmd
DGB
werewolf
ckd

The Good Guys

Jerbs
farside
iamausername
nocase
Xalxe
Korlash[/quote]

[RedCoyote]

But how did she know?!

[RedCoyote]

Spy, who are you interested in besides Gorrad?

[RedCoyote]

Okay, I see the post now. Hmmm.

I like Chevre's last post. I'm starting to really fail to see how she's the biggest wagon here.

[RedCoyote]

Unvote

because my vote isn't going anywhere and Kat is being replaced.

I'd really prefer a Runner lynch to anything on the table right now, but I know I don't have the energy or the capital to commit to a battle against him. I don't see Spyrex as voting Gorrad illegitimately here. He's fluffing his way through the first part of the game. His vote on Cyberbob is kind of lame. Kind of really lame. I don't think he bothers to really sell it, and I don't think he asks Cyberbob any questions or anything like that. This nocase vote is just as lame feeling. Then there's this point about how nocase is following the crowd, and Spyrex rightfully jumps on him for that. Why is he trying to make some boogeyman out of nothing? There's no huge anti-Gorrad sentiment here that I can tell...

...but he may have just started one.

Vote: Gorrad

[RedCoyote]

I really agree with nocase's post 525.

---

Oh, so now we're playing that game. Just pretend I don't exist, right?

You don't see why Chevre was such a big wagon? You had her on your OK lynch list earlier. Or did you forget about that?

Did you ask me a question?

No, I didn't forget about that. That was before she was blindsided with this silly "you didn't react properly to DGB's trick!" move which I thought was pretty shady. Even without that, I still see other people who are acting, in my opinion, less town than Chevre is. It stands to reason then that I wouldn't see how her wagon could grow larger than any of those people.

---

To summarize: The vast majority of Nocase's play has been defensive/gut-read bandwagoning. He's hiding behind short, non-offensive posts while leaving his options WIDE open for who he could vote for later on. His short bits of scumhunting could be easily faked, and he has contributed nothing to this game other than a false start.

Although I applaud you for not attempting to place every one of nocase's posts in a negative light (far too many players do this when they're trying to convince others how scummy someone is), I feel a little disconnected from the greater point you're making here.

You say nocase is overly defensive. Okay, in what way? I don't recall there being any big move against nocase with the exception of his post restriction thing. What's wrong with short posts? How are they non-offensive? I've seen him willing to stir the pot a little bit this game. I don't exactly see how he's leaving his options open either. I don't recall him backing off of any big statements or anything. Am I missing something?

---

I'm playing in another Mafia game (square enix mafia IV), and in that game, Katsuke recently joined as a replacement. She is quite active there, but at the same time she says she is a bit inactive at this Mafia because she is so incredibly busy. If you were really that busy, then you wouldn't join another game as a replacement.

The last time I used this argument against Kat, I was scum, Dutch. Are you?

[RedCoyote]

I do what I can.

[RedCoyote]

And you said you used this argument in an earlier game already against her? Does that mean she always act like this?

No, she doesn't. That makes her dangerous, heh.

---

Gorrad - 5 - nocase, inHimshallibe, Gorrad, SpyreX, Dutch one

Gorrad is town.

I don't understand what you mean here. Because of the nocase and Spy votes?

All we need is for her to start OMGUSing her accusers and give away her buddies. (lol, she OMGUS'd Chevre a little later).

I like how immediately after you said this, DGB votes you.

---

I'm going to stick with the keep and eye on DGB and note that she plays this way as scum and town, but I note she does seem to spam more as town.

But I don't think she's "spamming" much this game, do you? I think it's moving at a slow-to-moderate pace. Relatively she may be in the top three as far as posting goes, but I couldn't call it spamming in the sense that DGB is capable of doing. That's not to say that I necessarily think this is all valid, but I just want to put my two cents in about the issue regardless.

---

He's using votes as a means of detering the attack. Short posts aren't always bad, but his are as he's using them to just make a short comment that applies to the situation but isn't helpful (see the post of his after yours). He's willing to stir the pot, but he doesn't do anything like, say, Korlash (huge post to combat SpyreX's generally considered good case) or DGB (Random amounts of extreme pressure). HE just softly pokes around with no stated reasoning. He leaves his options open by stating that he's willing to lynch almost half the gorram town.

I like what you say, Gorrad. I mean, I think you're being sincere here, regardless of your alignment. I just don't agree with you. I've looked over nocase multiple times now, and I don't the above as a huge negative trait. The whole defensive argument sounds like the pot calling the kettle black to me, and, if nocase was being a little defensive, I probably think you're more guilty of it anyway.

---

The first thing to catch my interest in tonight's read is something that was said by Chevre. She claims that anything out of the ordinary is scummy. As wrong as that is, the mere assumption is the least of my worries in that statement. I'm more concerned with the fact that Chevre has that belief, yet went out of her way to keep an open mind with Nocase.

Point taken, but then why aren't you going after Chevre or nocase as opposed to DGB? Do you put that much stock on being able to read DGB's meta? Because this is all I've really seen you say about her thus far.

---

This sounds like scum wanting to be rid of the players most likely to catch him and his scumpals.

This sounds like grasping for straws, although I would like to know what Kmd meant when he said that he forgot inHim when he clearly did not.

---

The fact he voting based on meta is lazy.

I agree.

---

this is a scummy ass post and bad reasoning to jump on a hot bandwagon.....

I'm glad you brought this back up. I remember not liking Cyberbob here, originally, but I didn't really have an issue with him at the time. This was before he went off on Chevre for not responding properly to DGB, which really opened my eyes. Yeah, I have really moved away from my early town inklings on Cyberbob.

---

As you can see from the finished game that wolf was town he scum hunted more and actually made cases instead of following the crowd as he is here.

I feel like farside just found something big on werewolf. I wouldn't be crying if werewolf took a lynch here.

I don't like werewolf's reaction. I would've felt much better if he said that each game was an island and told farside to come off her cloud. As it stands though, farside looks as though she unearthed something important and werewolf comes across as a guilty child trying to look for a bs excuse to get out of it (I don't mean this derogatively, werewolf, I just mean to give an image of how it is playing in my head).

Unvote

;

vote: werewolf555

It makes a very interesting game, by the way. I forgot to mention this earlier.

---

Also, just something that occurred to me. I know these points are kind of scattered about, but I'm honestly just trying to catchup here because my last couple of posts were more like stopgaps as I concentrated on other games more heavily. Xalxe, why are you acting so... I don't even know exactly how to put this... mediative? I'm not even sure if it's scummy or not, but it's really giving me a strange, unsettling vibe. Is this a playstyle thing or is it specific to this game?

[RedCoyote]

Just catching up with some modding duties. I haven't forgotten the game, although I am a little frustrated at the lack of consensus here. Will post later tonight.

[RedCoyote]

RC, I'm not quite sure what you mean. If it's the short nature of my posts, that's fairly in line for me. I don't do wall-o-text posts unless I'm trying to majorly get a conviction on someone the rest of the players isn't considering.

No, no, no. I mean, like, uh, just a really diplomatic nature of your posting. It always seems like you're trying to coalesce people rather than give firm opinions. I don't know. I just wanted you to know that I was noticing this and if I may bring it up later. Right now I see you as okay though.

---

werewolf is fresh-noob-day1-lynch-meat.

Nonsense. That was a horrible reaction to farside. You were ready to string up Chevre over ignoring your fake vigshot earlier. This is clearly worse. Instead of telling farside to take a hike with that meta crap, he tries to get her modkilled. I don't buy that he was just mad because it happened to him before. I mean, it's possible, but even if it was, why didn't he defend himself in addition to mentioning that it was an ongoing game? Nah, not good enough. I think we're going to have to put the puppy down. I know how much you'll miss him back at the QT, but it's for the best.

---

He's also hiding, lying and misrepresenting a few things he said in this game. I don't except that as noob town.

farside 1 - werewolf/DGB 0


---

I read nothing that didn't convince me further of what I had believed before, outside of "Oh, hey, KMD is gonna try."

What is this? What are you talking about? You mean in defense of your Gorrad vote? Context helps.

---

I'm not changing my vote but I'm definitely looking at RC when I ask that question, with a maybe I should think and look more closely at DO.

No, I didn't. Honestly the game makes little difference to me. Meta arguments are so-so at best in my eyes. I was more concerned over his reaction to you and his reluctance to standup for himself.

---

Join date doesn't matter, he still has that new car scent.

XD

---

That game is over. That is a newbie game where the mod didn't change the title. He does have an ongoing game he was active. The modkilled game he is bitter about was a misreprep........also avoiding a game is not a town tell

farside 2 - werewolf/DGB 0

---

Well, there's a really easy way to see if KMD is selectively lurking. Let's look at his posts site-wide...

Nope, his posting is pretty consistent across the board.

Picking through KMD's posts, I don't see much fluff, but you're right that he needs to hurry up.

I agree 100%.

---

Werewolf wagon sucks bigtime. I don't like wagons predicated so heavily upon people's posting habits in other threads and half the people jumping on aren't even paying lipservice to the thought of explaining why.

You skimmed, bobby, at least on my account. This is all reaction, this is all werewolf's doing in this game. I could care less if farside gave us a link to a Greek twitter account. werewolf is no good. The fact that he'd try to get farside killed rather than defend himself is just music to my little townie ears.

---

You guys are forcing me to vig KMD.

Not if I shoot you first.

---

So you get to glide by following people and offering nothing of your own opinion, then blame others when or if they are wrong?

Also I want an answer to how you can be bitter about a modkill when your death was a forgone conclusion?

farside 3 - werewolf/DGB 0

---

Can we skip the part where everyone gives up on werewolf as seems to be this games M.O. and just jump onto Spy now?

I, for one, am not selling this wagon short.

[RedCoyote]

It has nothing to do with meta, werewolf, as I just explained to Cyberbob, but, then again, I don't think you really care. Because no one who's voting you is thinking clearly or rationally, right? We're all scum out to get you.

Same goes for yabba, obviously. Although with him I suspect he's naturally going to be a little frayed because 30 pages is quite a bit to digest in one sitting.

[RedCoyote]

I'm like the anti-iamausername in regards to werewolf. I absolutely don't get how someone could rationally look at him and see someone who is being honest, forthright, and trying his hardest. I don't see these characteristics at all, newb or not. I do not see a better lynch today. Certainly not Chevre and Kmd, and mostly not Seraphim and Gorrad. Seraphim has just grinded to a halt at a particularly bad time (right after he laid into Chevre). I don't know, it makes it seem like he's holding out here. I don't really think he's too scummy, but it's hard to defend someone who isn't doing anything.

[RedCoyote]

I will say that I don't like nocase and DGB starting a spankin' new wagon presumably for shits and giggles though. Seraphim hasn't done anything recently to justify some fresh attack while werewolf has only gotten worse.

[RedCoyote]

Seraphim hasn't done anything recently to justify some fresh attack while werewolf has only gotten worse.

Do you?

You could come up with all the evidence in the world, it still doesn't explain why you're just now turning to him. You asked him one question when he made that post, and, let's check out your scumlist a couple of days after he made the so-called "big tell".

i'm ready to vote:

gorrad
werewolf555
runner
curiouskarmadog
xalxe
katsuki
redcoyote
chevre (more hesitantly)

tell me where to put my vote, guys.

So it really seems suspect that just now Seraphim is deserved of a new wagon when he supposedly had previously ranked at least 9th or lower in your scumreads. Granted, you brought him up a few ranks in a recent list, but that remained unexplained as well.

[RedCoyote]

I look at Sera from time to time. He is most definitely actively lurking. I see him posting fine through out MS. I didn't like him before and since he isn't helping the game.

GD and completed games aren't exactly the best evidence, but I take your point. I didn't realize he was really just brushing this game off that much.

In that case, I partially withdraw my issue with you, nocase.

Not nearly enough to top the wolfster though, imo.

[RedCoyote]

Have you really, Xalxe? Would you mind if I checked your post history to verify this, because offhand I am doubting many of your posts have been standing on a soapbox in favor of lynching Chevre, and they certainly haven't been going on "for pages". I could be wrong though. Do I need to go back and check or do you want to backtrack a little bit?

[RedCoyote]

Yeah, that's one. Hardly what I'd call "preaching for pages". The reason I even bring it up is because you seem very passive this game.

[RedCoyote]

You know what I realized? Gorrad is lurking just as much as Kmd and Seraphim at this point. I feel for the Mod, and I don't blame him for cutting our deadline. A staggering amount of players are shirking on their responsibilities. That said, the Chevre argument isn't anymore appealing now that yabba has dug up all the same issues most of us had with her back when the game started, so I see no point in resurrecting a crappy wagon that was just an excuse to really get the game rolling. I've been beating around the bush, but in my eyes Chevre has done enough to defend from her detractors since her gigantic post (which was probably the pinnacle of her scumminess, at least speaking for myself).

Gorrad hasn't really changed. He was doing good defending himself against nocase, but when he had the primo opportunity to really get on offense after werewolf slipped up (whether he got on the werewolf wagon or not), he completely dropped the ball.

So, what to do? You have Kmd, Seraphim, and Gorrad, none of them really care much about the game (whether they do or not is irrelevant because actions speak louder than words), and it would be hypocritical of me to try and defend one or two and concentrate my venom on the others. I still have faith in the wolf wagon here, but I just wanted to let everyone important in this game know (you all know who you are) that I am growing more and more impatient with the three aforementioned players.

Also, Cyberbob, I appreciate your catching up post and I think it's pretty good. I keep going back and forth on you, but you're probably town. Don't let me forget I said this later in the game should we spar again at some point.

[RedCoyote]

Well, Weatherman, it's difficult, if not impossible, to put yourself in that same situation. It's a more than a little out of context to label me as feigning emotions, given that a fair number of "psyche-outs" and reaction fishing attempts have happened throughout the game.

The Kat vote thing, well, that was the best option at the time. Far better than Chevre and Antihero, I thought, the other two big wagons, and it was worth poking her a little bit to see what would come out. Others apparently disagreed. I certainly don't view her as an "easy lynch", but rather I would've hoped that my pressure by voting had have sprung her into action a bit more. It did not, but she did replace out.

Anyways, I'm having a hard time stomaching the amount of gut feelings in your overall case. You say that the things I say don't feel like things a townie would say and compare me to two different players I've never played with before. I don't recall having played with you before either, even though you propose to know a great deal about what you think I would or wouldn't say as a townie. I hope you won't take offensive to me writing off your case as little more than some false meta supposition, something that I'd argue you had little context with which to judge me on.

Moreover, you undercut your own attempt at building a new wagon from the ground up (with less than two weeks until our deadline, no less) by admitting to us that you don't have a firm handle on your reread. You shouldn't be criticized for this necessarily, but I think you would be better served having at least that knowledge of the game should you insist on coming after me. The worst part, however, the part that actually may be valid grounds with which to criticize you on, is your ignorance of why werewolf and Gorrad at least are where they are in the vote count.

So as pretty and theoretical as your conclusions appear, you effectively have dodged the biggest issues we have in front of us, Gorrad and werewolf. To be even more frank, I don't exactly know why you'd not see that as a good starting point before diving into the game. To be fair, though, I'll give you props for touching on a majority of the players.

But you have plenty of time, so I look forward to future analysis. I just hope you aren't content to rest on what little you've actually given us so far.

[RedCoyote]

Ok, nocase wagon has gone nowhere. I'll do that WW iso like I promised when I have a second to breathe. The last two weeks have been ridiculous ><.

Yeah, your vague promise to iso ONLY the current vote leader and easy lynch is soooooooo townie

*cough* *cough*

This.

[RedCoyote]

username, don't forget to vote werewolf before you leave.

I will respond to Weatherman later. I see he's trying to pull some technicalities on me rather than focus on the big picture here.

[RedCoyote]

The only thing I've really seen in werewolf's favor is "he's too newb to be scum", which is such a silly argument, as crypto pointed out, that I don't even really want to seriously acknowledge it. I don't see why it's the wolf wagon that should concede here. Players like inHim are going to come and go, but it pisses me off that nocase (who else?) runs away at the drop of a hat. So the werewolf wagon is the silent majority and DGB and now yabba are bullying the players on it until they submit. Wonderful.

Even if I think Gorrad is a good compromise lynch, which I do, I don't like how the werewolf wagon has the rug pulled out from under it just because farside, Dutch, and/or I aren't here 24/7. Gorrad is being played up like he's some sort of monster Mafia player, and, although I'm sure he is, he isn't in this game. In this game he's just another lurker right along side of Kmd, Seraphim, and username as far as I'm concerned. I've got a wall post forthcoming, but I just wanted to get this off my chest.

[RedCoyote]

What was confusing about farside/Korlash?

Exactly what I said was. One of them was arguing about whether the other was supposed to have seen something happen before in a game that took place several months ago or not. Perhaps, in your infinite knowledge, you were easily able to decipher the meaning and merit of the argument without hesitation. I, on the other hand, saw it as trivial and confusing.

The bias I might have would be for finding your scum play transparent before more than anything. when you feel like you've nailed someone you get a feeling of wanting to do that again.

You admit this at your own peril, then.

Two weeks is a hell of a lot of time btw, as you yourself state in the same post, somewhat contradictorily, so deadline-inefficiency is not an argument at this point

Look, more power to you. As I said, you shouldn't necessarily be criticized for speaking your mind, I'm just pointing out the obvious: You spent a disproportional amount of time attempting to sully my name when I think that time could've been been better spent weighing the progression of the top tier wagons before us. You did this knowingly, as you volunteered to replace in, and you did this under the previous admission that you could possibly be suffering from some sort of meta-bias on one player in the game (not that I argue that's why you entered the game, but that you knew making your first "real" post the struggle, to put it mildly, that it'd take to not only subvert the game's historical wagon progression, but to literally pull another candidate up from nowhere).

And that's what makes me raise an eyebrow, not the two week thing.

I don't understand your last sentence's function. Are you criticizing me for it or not? Is it bad/scummy play to jump on you in the meanwhile or not?

No, especially now that you've clarified your stance a bit. I think it's in bad form to turn a blind eye to the major wagons as though they the don't deserve any sort of prioritized attention. This is more of a theoretical argument though, so it's nothing to write home about.

I should mention that the issue is somewhat ironically compounded by the fact that you replaced Runner. At least for the first roughly 20 pages, as you've no doubt noticed given how understandably fixated you are with my posts, had I been given the opportunity to lynch anyone I wanted, the top two candidates would've likely been Kat and Runner.

I didn't give meaningful opinions on nearly a majority. not even a third.

I didn't literally count the number of players you touched on (this is the verb I used, by the way. It's a far cry from "meaningful opinion". Was this purposeful or is this a misunderstanding?), but you brought up several different names in what seemed like a majority of players.

---

I made a huge Iso on someone who had no one looking funny at him. People generally ignored it.

Sure, but what have you done lately, friend?

And, let's be honest, it's not exactly like your case was all that groundbreaking when it was fresh. Had you have been a little more active, well, who knows? As it stands though, we're not

really

talking about a nocase lynch.

---

The meta argument that convinced people seemed incorrect to me.

This isn't the argument.

This isn't the argument.
This isn't the argument.
This isn't the argument.

I've said it thrice before, which you apparently didn't catch because you haven't gotten there yet, and I'll say it again for you. Hell, I'll probably have to say it again for Poker, too. Cyberbob, yabba, and DGB all attempted to write the entire wagon off as some meta trick, but that's absolutely not the case at all. I swear to goodness if I hear this lame attempt at undercutting the werewolf wagon one more time I'm going to absolutely lose it.

RedCoyote, did you take a look at the game farside linked?

No, I didn't. Honestly the game makes little difference to me. Meta arguments are so-so at best in my eyes. I was more concerned over his reaction to you and his reluctance to standup for himself.

If NO, how can you have so little curiosity as town on something that you think was a big find/would not want to verify it yourself?

I had no reason to. If it was inaccurate, werewolf would've called farside out. I'm not prescribing a set townie reaction either. At the very least he could've said the entire meta argument was invalid from the outset. He could've flowed with her and pointed to other games where he's acted differently. He could've went on offense against farside or someone else entirely. The sky's the limit here. What he chooses to do, instead, is ask for her to be modkilled and then effectively ignores the issue. When pressed, he calls everyone who's voting him scum and has yet to really return.

Now that's some trifecta of horrible, horrible reactions, if I do say so myself.

As come for the bs excuse, actually don't find werewolf's "is that a modkill" a bs excuse at all, and most of all it is one that is easily verifiable. I just searched 5 minutes on msutils and indeed found a very recent modkill on werewolf on an ongoing in an exactly similar situation, linking to another ongoing game, where werewolf was clearly burnt for ignorance.

What difference does this make? Modkilling, or the threat thereof, is in just about every ruleset ever put forth by a modern MS Mod. All Mods are different, just like all people, and have different degrees of latitude for rule violations. If being modkilled gives you an excuse to start pushing it on others, then does successfully lurking in one game give you an excuse to do it in all games? This is just a bastardized version of "if Johnny jumps off a bridge, would you?"

The point is, you have werewolf clamoring for a modkill as opposed to him defending himself, defending his meta, attacking farside, or attacking anyone else. That's not townie sounding, not by a long shot.

I will make one concession. In that quote you pulled, I shouldn't have specifically quoted that sentence from farside. That game honestly had nothing to do with the point I was making, so I take at least that amount of the blame for the laziness (or intentional deriding) you, Cyberbob, yabba, and DGB presented us with.

---

@yabba:

5
3
1
1

---

uh, looking at my last two posts, total bullshit?
I just isoed the 2 biggest wagons for god's sake and said to further research the reactions to gorrad soon.

You did nothing of the sort. You called the case against werewolf a meta case and you said that Spyrex's original case against Gorrad was unconvincing. It has evolved since then. Both of them have, really.

---

/apathy

What the fuck?

You're were in the majority wagon. You were at the head and a significant part of its formation. Why would you "apathetically" swing off of it and onto the Gorrad wagon? Why would you not elaborate?

You just absolutely killed any town creditability you built up in my eyes at the mid-part of this day, Antihero. I hope your apathy is worth that.

---

How many votes does werewolf have now?

How about you actually engage people for a change?

[RedCoyote]

You'll be sorry! You'll all be sorry!

Kidding, of course, but I am bitter over the lack of any real debate between these two acceptable wagons.

[RedCoyote]

What, Chevre? I don't like the case against Chevre. I've explained why I thought the vig shot aftermath was so laughably concocted and bordering on scummy for the actual perpetrators rather than Chevre herself.

Other than that, I've failed to see any new developments since, like, page 9.

[RedCoyote]

Gorrad and werewolf. What else?

[RedCoyote]

Um, I'm really not all that sure what you're asking me. I didn't think you supported either wagon, but if you're saying that you favor the Gorrad wagon, then I'd say it's a good coincidence that you're siding with the apparent majority. I'm disappointed that you'd choose that, but it's better than letting you vote grow moss on Seraphim.

[RedCoyote]

Er, Chevre* rather.

[RedCoyote]

And you're wondering why I'm getting apathetic? werewolf lynch >>>>>>> gorrad lynch at this point, but people just think they can swoop in and go "lol, werewolf wagon sux balls, gorrad wagon FTW!!!!" Talking to these people is like talking to a lead block, and I'm tired of getting crapped on for no damn reason.

What. The. Fuck.
You changed from werewold to Gorrad when the situation was
werewolf 8
Gorrad 4
Actions and convictions in massive conflict.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Let's end this day on a high note of RC and Weatherman coming to a mutual understanding in their sudden heightened suspicions of Antihero.

Unvote

;

vote: Gorrad

[RedCoyote]

Well, I've never heard of a secret deadline in a normal game.

Mod

, may I just ask if this is player-influenced or Mod-influenced? If you can answer, that is. I just want to know if this is something your doing as, like, a test experiment or not.

---

Crap! We lost a doctor. well, at least Xalxe is gone. But I'm quite disappointed that both Gorrad and Werewolf turned out to be VT's.

As I already saw mentioned on the way up here, this is a very basic tell. Frankly, I can't even twist this post to make it seem sincere. It's completely and utterly focused on the flips. There's no analysis in here at all. There's no vote in here at all. This is pure reaction, pure, just, emotional regurgitation of what everyone already knows. Overall, it's an ugly, ugly post that does not have any place coming out of a town player's mouth.

---

had a feeling about Xalve....but also had a feeling about ww, so I guess it was a wash.

I don't really like this either. This is just a very lame reaction post, but, at the very least, ckd reminds us that he had scum reads on both of these players. Additionally, ckd is unafraid to vote (as I'd expect one should be).

---

Antihero is an intriguing case, but I would, once again, like to label him as a complacency lynch until a) I actually read through his input and interactions into the game and b) well... at least Chevre goes through. I'm still sure that nocase is a good follow-up to that, but clearly very few are swayed by that argument.

I wish you would stop this. There are more than one scum in this game, yabba. If you are not willing to consider anything besides a Chevre led scumteam, then you may or may not find yourself disappointed and lost should that flip not go your way. I mean, every lynch besides Chevre just cannot be a "complacency" lynch to you. I don't accept that coming from any town-aligned player, certainly not you.

This is another lynch that I'm sure won't go through but might be worthwhile somewhere down the line.

Could you elaborate more on this? I reread this part a couple of times, but I'm unsure what you are referencing. Do you mean a Dutch lynch or a Jerbs lynch?

---

@RC
viewtopic.php?p=2772322#p2772322
why did you self quote here? Did you question your own reads of seraphim or did i totally misread?

You misread. That was in reference to nocase's previous post. I didn't realize my post would start a new page, so it looks very confusing if you don't have that context. Basically nocase asked me if I could read (presumably because he wanted it know that he had a reason for voting Seraphim), and I just reinforced my point that Seraphim hadn't done anything from when nocase had no issue with him to when he suddenly did.

In reading RC's post I come across another question. I don't think Werewolf asked for farside to be modkilled I thought he wondered if farside would for something he had done before. I don't think he asked for farside to die back there. Do you disagree?

Well, I mean, the implication is clearly there. I agree he didn't straight up ask for a modkill in so many words, but he was basically implying it. "hmm, I got modkilled for this... WHAT DO YOU THINK, KK???"

Of course the point is null at this point. It appears he didn't mean anything by it.

weatherman has been bringing up some good points on so i have been rethinking things on him. His jump from WW to gorrad did feel a little contrived

Please. What was wrong with my responses to him? If you're going to piggyback on his attacks, then at least tell me what is speaking to you. I think I've addressed him fairly well. Additionally, Gorrad was a scumread of mine, I just had a much better one. Both of them turned out to be wrong, so, whatever.

All due respect, PF, but your reads are kind of shitty as a whole. I mean, I know you're trying to replace in, so I don't want to be overly critical. I don't want to you to spend 3 hours composing a wall either. I just hope to see you making comments from this point forth that follow the game rather than try to go back in time anymore.

---

Why did the scum kill Xalxe?

I was about ready to criticize you for this, but I think this makes sense. If Xalxe got his shot off, farside is the only one that makes sense for his shot. I sincerely doubt the scum/Xalxe would've tried to shoot werewolf.

---

Antihero would be the most lovely lynch, but I have no problem with giving our friend Dutch a little time in the spotlight.

Korlash does a good job of wrapping it up. yabba explains it as well.

Vote: Dutch one

[RedCoyote]

Oh, right. I guess you wouldn't want that, huh? XD

[RedCoyote]

Oh, Spyrex pointed it out before I could.

[RedCoyote]

Why do you say that?

[RedCoyote]

First of all, the Dutch one is one crappy wagon. I really don't buy it. He sounded like a super sincere noob on D1.

I've never been one to excuse people from being scum because of their experience or lackthereof. There are some people you are more or less willing to cut a little slack given their meta or given that they made a questionable statement, but that doesn't mean they can't be scum. I see no reason to look past Dutch in this instance, let alone write him off as obvtown.

RedCoyote who echoed on my point on Antihero as excellent in the same post in which he hammered Gorrad, and then his first post today went like "the Antihero lynch would be the loveliest but hey I can also support this great thing on the Dutch one"
That is really fishy. That to

start the day with

? A-hero already had one vote, the start of the day is where you don't compromize if you're actually interested => me no like.

I can have other suspicions; I can work other angles. Yes, I specifically noted Antihero because I didn't want people to forget that I didn't care for the quote here, but we obviously have a fundamental disagreement over Dutch at the moment (and it's not our first). I want Dutch to take some flak over his opening statement. Maybe he'll satisfy me, and maybe he won't.

I mean, any player would have a reaction to the new information to themselves. Any player would think to themselves the obvious the the Dutch one stated.

If you want to analyze it, that's fine by me. Why was there no analysis? If you want to vote based on it, that's fine by me. Why was there no vote? It's just this pure, "Dang! They got our doctor... frowny face. But at least we nabbed that serial killer... happy face." It's the most basic type of psychological manipulation. You're trying to tell everyone that you feel just like they do, and it's okay. It's like a forced empathy. I mean, I don't want to sound like I know anything about psychology, I just call out worthless drivel when I see it. This particular worthless drivel was aimed at making Dutch seem like "part of the town" more than anything else that I can tell. Unless you can point me to someone analytical angle that I'm missing.

---

I think if I am lynched/killed before Dutch one, you should immediately lynch Dutch one afterwards. The way he buddied me seemed like scum trying to appear town by saying "I told you so" after I'm lynched. Now with his reaction to the night's events, we know he will do that.

Yes, please, let us not forget about this.

I agree with Chevre, your choice seems a bit pointless.. you're probably just voting Chevre because that is a large wagon...

This is a big allegation that I think is unwarranted. You should expand on this, or I'm just going to assume you are slinging mud here.

I never much cared for Dutch's position on Chevre.

[RedCoyote]

I'm not "excusing" him, I'm stating he sounded super sincere D1, and acted like a noob. noobness is independent of sincerety, but a trait how to categorize his behaviour (meta climate matters a huge amount so i don't care about 5 games on some other site).

Well, I never thought he sounded that sincere. I thought Runner sounded even worse. What do you think of that?

Do you think Antihero would be the best lynch? Y/N please.

Yes. At the moment, I would say so, yeah.

I mean, if you're going to continue to push this idea that a person may only go after one target and it must be their biggest current scumread, then that's your prerogative. I'm guilty as charged of not subscribing to that policy. I'm a pragmatist and a realist. I realize that my reads aren't infallible, I realize that there are multiple scum, and I realize that you can't always get what you want in this game.

"This first post of the day made 20 minutes after the opening of the thread is OBVSCUM and never could come from town's mouth because it's an inexperienced player blurting aloud the obvious and has no analysis or vote. No town would ever state the obvious! Instead it must be scum PRETENDING to do so to fit in. Why? Because it's just what the town thinks. Look, look, it's in the wiki!"

1.) It has nothing to do with being 20 minutes into the day or 20 days into the day. The content is absolute crap. You know it. I know it. Dutch knows it.
2.) This is the second time

you're

bring his experience into the game to defend him. I never said a word about his experience. If DGB had taken the positions Dutch has over this game and made a post like that, I'd have voted her.
3.) It's more than just "stating the obvious". There's no analysis, no vote, and no logical content involved there. It's a pure emotional reaction meant on conveying feelings of, I'd argue, false empathy. He wants to attempt to reinforce the idea that he's part of the town in a backhanded sort of way.
4.) I don't scumhunt based on the wiki. The logic is sound enough to stand on it's own. I've not referenced the wiki as my foundation.

---

Korlash, I believe that a Day 1 mislynch almost always contains multiple scums. Also, Gorrad was obvtown. Werewolf, not so much.

Oh, I agree. Antihero most certainly. One between DGB and Cyberbob is probably another, and I'm not really 100% on inHim or Spy either.

[RedCoyote]

I've made my peace with the fact that you'll never like my posts, username. You've clearly got a friend in Weatherman, and I wish you both the best. I'll tell you what I told him. If you want to push me on the basis of not focusing on one person, then so be it. I implore you to prove me wrong about the strength of an Antihero wagon, because I would be interested in seeing it gain steam and hopefully joining it. If Antihero ever starts posting, I'd of course be interested in poking him some. If it'd make you feel a little better, I'll reiterate the fact that I want to hear more from Antihero because I did not like his Gorrad vote at all.

With that said, I see something unsavory in Dutch, and I want to point it out. I have few ways of doing this other than my vote and my text. You and Weatherman have a real political issue with players using their vote this way. It's a reasonable issue, but not one I subscribe to. Yesterday I hammered Gorrad with my vote, not because I saw him as the most scummy, but because I saw no way of getting the werewolf wagon back to the forefront. I could've held out, but it so happened that I saw the Gorrad wagon as reasonable and was willing to move my vote there. I'm not trying to equate the situation here, but I do see both Dutch and Antihero as scummy, I do not see them as very far apart degree-wise, and I would like both of them to post more.

[RedCoyote]

Alright, username. You did your homework.

Unvote

;

vote: Antihero

The lynch may proceed.

[RedCoyote]

Are you voting Dutch because you think he is scumier than antihero or that he needs pressure right now? You kinda made simular remarks at antihero yesterday and voted elsewhere too. Basically why are you voting Dutch over hero when you seem to dislike hero more. If its just for pressure then do you plan to join the push for hero's death today?

And unless I'm still reading you wrong, did you say Dutch's reaction to the flips was worthless?

As username pointed out, people are more receptive to lynching Antihero today than I initially thought. Earlier in the game, both Korlash and DGB liked Antihero for town. Chevre almost never talks about Antihero (rest assured, if Antihero flips scum, my townChevre read is taking a nosedive. Rejoice, yabba.) inHim has had Antihero as solidly town this game. Kmd has had Antihero as solidly town. nocase, like Chevre, has had very little to say about Antihero as well.

Top this off with the fact that, outside of that horrible, horrible vote, I was really seeing Antihero as town myself.

So, I mean, that's half the game right there. Dutch, on the other hand, you can go back and find numerous instances of people suspecting him. I was probably going to start the day with an Antihero vote, but Dutch's post was extremely ugly, and, I saw no reason why he shouldn't have been criticized for it.

I don't understand your second question. No, Dutch's reactions are not worthless. Quite the opposite.

Something that just came to mind. DGB argues that the xalxe kill was a cross kill where scum wanted to kill scum. This would require 2 things. Scum knowing their are multiple groups and scum thinking xalxe is scum or wanting to get rid of xalxe to protect themselves. I don't think anyone had 2 out of those 3 reasons to kill xalxe.

What's your point?

---

Yes. The question is, why didn't you?

I'll concede that I underestimated how much Antihero hate there was, but I made it pretty clear that I am happy with either lynch. You and Weatherman need to get that through your heads.

---

what is the case on Anti-hero again? and why is this wagoning developing so fast for no apparent reason?

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 3#p2782843

---

At the moment yes though i am considering looking into the antihero wagon. Iamusername's homework is good and it notes conections between antihero and chevre. I have noticed quite a few between dutch and chevre.

I just noticed the same thing when I did some research for my response to your post 1080. You are probably town, PF.

Either a vig hated xalxe or scum hated him.

Well, duh. Who else would've shot him?

---

Start of a day you cannot even know the positions of others; you automatically reverted to your second choice which is very weird in a situation where you basically start from scratch (second day, extremely early, first wagon just up after one day). That is not pragmatism, that is not when you compromize unless you're half-assed about what you're pushing.

The only thing that really makes me nervous about you is how confident you sound. I mean, I agree that it was a good catch when Antihero voted Gorrad out of nowhere, by no means do I think that makes him obvious scum. You have to understand we have two entirely different interpretations on Dutch and, apparently, two entirely different interpretations on Antihero's post. We both think it's scummy, yes, but you have got it in your head that I'm trying to sneak a Dutch vote in out of nowhere, which is clearly not the case. I've

never

been fond of Dutch this game. On the other hand, I've had ups and downs with Antihero.

And you can keep pushing me on how I'm not being reasonable or prudent, but I will not apologize for using my vote as a tool.

---

The people who are crapping on my "fluffy posting" are the same people who were crapping on the werewolf wagon yesterday. If his posting wasn't fluffy and useless, I don't know whose is.

You abandoned it without reason! You never responded to me or Weatherman!

[RedCoyote]

Well, ckd, considering the fact he won't engage me on the point despite asking him twice and having it brought up at least four different occasions now isn't doing him any favors.

Additionally, do you think there was scum on the Gorrad lynch, and, if so, whom?

[RedCoyote]

Antihero doesn't seem to care all that much about helping the town, so I see no reason why the town should care all that much about sparing him from a lynch.

Spy, do you think Antihero is being honest about his switch to Gorrad yesterday?

[RedCoyote]

In context. If he was apathetic, why would he get off the majority wagon and onto a minority wagon?

[RedCoyote]

nocase, can't we do a bargain here? Antihero then Xtoxm (with a contingency for anything relatively unusual that may or may not take place in the interim)? username's last post was on the money.

[RedCoyote]

Being tunneled has just made me kinda apathetic about this game.

Yeah, because threatening not to read the game if we don't stop suspecting you will really get you town points.

Vote: Antihero

Wow, if only you had done this a week ago you could've kept on living your life as a PR (assuming you are) undercover.

---

I'd throw my vote on anti-hero here but it's a dumb situation. We have two people who haven't claimed a damn thing. Unfortunately I think anti needs to elaborate more or the situation needs to be dropped. I don't see that happening so I'll be waiting for Anti-hero.

This.

[RedCoyote]

PF, how can I pick a side when all I have are vague innuendos? Hell, who's to say they aren't both town?

[RedCoyote]

That's what I'm still voting him, but I don't care for Xtoxm much either.

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP: That's

why

I'm still voting him, but I don't care for Xtoxm much either.

[RedCoyote]

Mod

, can you use your powers of the prod to get Xtoxm and Chevre to ship up or shape out, please?

[RedCoyote]

Oh, wait, I think it's shape up or ship out.

Sorry, I'm a little buzzed.

[RedCoyote]

Agree with Spy 100% in all things said over the past couple of pages.

Unvote

;

vote: Dutch_one

I don't look forward to another ten pages of debate between Chevre, Dutch, or a PF lynch. We've got firm proponents in all sides, I think.

[RedCoyote]

You're all over the place, Dutch, but I'm less enthused about voting you for some reason. That post seems rather genuine. I don't know, maybe we should just stick to the Gorrad wagon?

Someone offered to vote inHim, I think I can get behind that. inHim has been really flaky with his votes.

Unvote

;

vote: inHimshallibe

[RedCoyote]

inHim sounds like a lynch that will please everyone.

[RedCoyote]

If you guys are going to force me to choose between Chevre and Dutch, you know I'm going to choose Dutch. Chevre is not scum.

DGB, how's that big list of reads of yours holding up? Have you been updating it?

[RedCoyote]

Unvote

;

Vote: Dutch one

[RedCoyote]

Ugh.

Unvote

[RedCoyote]

They're both town. I want no part of this, really.

[RedCoyote]

username obviously put some honest work into his Chevre case. I skimmed it earlier because I didn't really like many of the D1 points used against her in retrospect, but now that I've kind of taken a more critical look at her D2 play, I can't honestly say I have grounds enough to hold this wagon up without giving anything solid as an alternative. I know I keep going back and forth, but I'm really hitting a wall here. I don't generally make it a practice to do a 180 on a stated position I have, but I'm also not in the habit of being dishonest with myself either. Hopefully some flips will get me back in this.

Unvote

;

vote: Chevre

(I also saw the PF vote above me and recognize this is the hammer vote in case there's any question about this later).

[RedCoyote]

No, I don't think ckd set himself off. I think the mafia would've gotten two kills if he had done that. We had two kills yesterday, so presumably we'll get the same two kills today (one by mafia, the other by vig/another SK). If ckd had set himself off then the mafia should've got another kill on top of that if I'm reading this right.

As far as Xtoxm goes, yeah, it's all going to be guesswork there. God only knows why he didn't tell us what he was going to do. Then again, I didn't think to ask him either.

Also,

Mod

, if it's not too much trouble, could you put the links to the end of each day/final vote counts on the first post, please?

[RedCoyote]

Scummy

Spyrex
DGB

I really think we should go in one of these directions. I don't particularly care as to which one. I wouldn't miss either of these folks much at this point.

I'm also skimming over ckd's posts in isolation. I absolutely do not like his interactions with DGB

or

Spyrex. With DGB every argument just looks so pitty-pat. These weak, forced little spats they have with one another throughout the course of the game.

With Spyrex it's completely opposite. I did not see one interaction with Spyrex at all.

In any case, I'm fairly confident that one of these two people are scum. This is easily the biggest lead we have to work off of.

[RedCoyote]

Ditto.

I mean, really, it could be both of them as scum (DGB and Spyrex, I mean), but I feel like that's too much to ask for. He approaches both players very differently.

Vote: SpyreX

[RedCoyote]

That is very possible, and I agree with your first sentence, too.

Hm, I keep posting here like one of them will magically decide to show up. Alright, I'll check back later.

[RedCoyote]

So what you're saying is, you attacked him, but in such a weak way that no one else took notice?

DGB's face when she read this:

[RedCoyote]

Given how hard xtoxm went at spyreX he is a possible option for where xtoxm went. And another option I see would be Korlash as Xtoxm may have hid with him for the same reasons he hid with yabba before. I think I'll check them both out and see if either had a connection to CKD

This is a good point. This is a very good point.

---

So what you're saying is, you attacked him, but in such a weak way that no one else took notice?

As I implied earlier, this is such a good comeback that it hurts.

---

Isn't that interesting.

It isn't. Xtoxm hid behind yabba.

nocase was after InHim, SpyreX, and Cyberbob at the and of yesterday.

How come CKD didn't go after Antihero, who mis-counterclaimed Xtomx?

Your point system is so laudable and admirable, yet you waste your time going after whatever in God's name you're trying to go after in this post.

---

Inhim is now obvscum.

Where were you yesterday when username was giving a Chevre mislynch to the scum on a silver platter?

---

SpyreX is still potentially scum, but that was a terrible wagon based on a contrived interpretation of Xtoxm's death.

What's yours then? Like PF?

---

...hey, wait a minute, if that applies then antihero wouldn't have blocked Xtoxm N1 and yabba would be confirmed again!

Explain. When was he not confirmed?

---

RedCoyote certainly gets minus points for suggesting a rather blatant inaccuracy about Xtoxm in the first place.

I don't know the innerworkings of Xtoxm's mind; I'd take a different approach to a Hider role, personally. Especially when I had already claimed. I see there's evidence to the contrary of what I initially thought to be the case, so I'm willing to entertain it. Who do you think he hid behind?

Unvote

;

vote: inHimshallibe

[RedCoyote]

Clearly laid out? He mentioned it once.

[RedCoyote]

And I'm not "lashing out at quotes in a random fashion". I'm engaging multiple people various ways in an organized, chronological order (like I've been doing all game in every game I've ever played here including the time I was town with you). And you have a pretty lame definition of "lashing out" if that's your threshold.

[RedCoyote]

I'm not blaming username in the sense that I'm calling him scum. I made it clear that I willingly drank his kool-aid. He's very much town. I was just pointing out that we could've avoided a mislynch yesterday had more people been more enthused (even Chevre). The game stalled and there wasn't any real argument against Chevre. You threw a word about Dutch every once and a while, but that was probably just to stop any prods.

Of course any sort of 100% quote, probably something dug up during D1 because I don't really remember it, would be subject to change over the course of, oh, 60 pages or so.

[RedCoyote]

The point is that now two people are trying to twist my honest interpretation of Xtoxm into something sinister. Probably only one of them is doing so for town reasons.

[RedCoyote]

No, it looks like someone trying to move this long, boring game along because the only time the town gets crap done is during the night.

And what is there to address? I'm not going to go poring through my history over something so trivial.

You advocated a Dutch lynch.
I agreed with that.
Dutch convinced me otherwise.
I agreed with that more recently.
Xtoxm died as a Hider.
He has you listed as scum.

End of story.

[RedCoyote]

So quit being part of the problem and start being part of the solution. Voting inHim would be a good start.

[RedCoyote]

I'll blame #1516 on too much vodka, but it's just to save face.

*phew*

I was worried for a second there that you had caught us.

[RedCoyote]

...and you got onto me for getting apathetic?

That was different. Apples to oranges. You were supposedly hard up for a werewolf lynch just like I was until you sold out. I was not enthusastic at all for Gorrad, let alone Chevre, to be hanged. Additionally, I'll try to cut back on the humor, Mr. Serious.

---

RC, why do you interpret Xtoxm was hitting scumß?

Like I told Spyrex, that's how I'd play as a Hider. Couple that with Xtoxm's last post and Spy's interaction with ckd, and that's a pretty scummy cocktail.

[RedCoyote]

Wow, it's like one of those "if you are scum, every post you make is scummy" PbPAs that everyone hates. I especially like how you think Spy is "probably scum" but you end up doing exactly what he tells you to do anyways.

[RedCoyote]

You could've fooled me. From what I saw it looked like "RC's early D1 = scummy, mid D1 = scummy, late D1 = scummy... start of D2 = scummy, mid D2 = scummy, late D2 = scummy... start of D3 = scummy". You're all over the place, and I think people will see that. Just because I've been completely out in the open shouldn't necessarily be a strike against me. I bare my heart to everyone as town, you know. I don't just post the things that'll make me sound good. You see me naked, including all my ugly back-and-forthness as the game progresses. I know of no other way to play than to be 100% honest.

[RedCoyote]

Oh, I see a theme. An honest townie trying to fight his way through PRs, scum, and at least one SK.

[RedCoyote]

Too real for you, Cyber? Can't handle it?

[RedCoyote]

Agreed with Cyberbob, this is a bad reply to a good point made against you.

No, it's damn silly. This whole argument against me is silly. All either of them did was post a bunch of my old posts (or summarize, in Cyber's case) to show me giving reads over the course of the game completely out of any sort of context. The only implication or "theme" is that I've been constantly adapting my reads as the game progresses.

If that's scummy then may every town have a rope for me in perpetuity.

[RedCoyote]

Let's vote inHim then. I don't know why everyone is in such a rush to defend inHim. This sucker has been protected since, essentially, the second or third page. DGB gave him a thumbs up and everyone has been tripping over themselves to ignore anything inHim has or hasn't done here. When's the last time you thought to yourself, "Oh, yeah, inHim had a big presence on that wagon", or, "Yeah, inHim really stuck his neck out to defend that person"? You want to know why you can't think of these things? Because if he's not fluffing it up, he's offering his support to virtually any wagon around. He's been unprincipled and unwilling to engage anyone over anything substantial for just about this entire game. He needs to go, and he needed to go yesterday.

[RedCoyote]

Dutch's 'presence' this game or your myriad of votes prefaced with some version of "this is because of what X said about the person I'm voting in case I'm wrong" AND the 180's under the guise of 'stances change' when, at least for me, the difference was you throwing a hammer on someone you said was town

What was my werewolf vote? What was my Gorrad vote? My Kat vote? My Dutch vote? These were all conclusions

I

came to. Me. Not anyone else. If you think that one time I voted Dutch and said that you had a good point about it was the only reason I voted Dutch then you are sorely mistaken. Sure, I qualified it. I qualify everything. I do that for the sake of clarification, and I know you know that. We've played in too many games together for you not to know that. I don't generally play the "reaction" game. That's not my style. I don't just

do

things.

The Chevre vote, granted, was a little different. I thought she was town before I hammered her and I thought she was town after I did it. I'm not afraid to say that either. The thing is, I had no leg to stand on, Spy. username gave a solid case. Chevre was completely absent. You were absent. She had already claimed. Dutch was looking better. There was no real alternative. In spite of all that, I'm supposed to sit around and twiddle my thumbs uselessly with no one listening to me? No, sorry. I don't accept that. You of all people know the value in lynching without some sort of trivial delay. Had I not hammered Chevre, what would've happened? Another ten pages of walls? Please don't sit here and tell me I'm scum because I'm depriving you of your walls. I thought Chevre was town; I didn't know she was town.

Look, if you think I didn't realize that I was hammering the person I just called town, you're crazy. That's not some sort of slip, man. This isn't my first rodeo. I didn't slap my forehead and say, "Oh, crap, I forgot I already called Chevre town! I hope no one will notice ". I did it intentionally and I stand behind my moves 100%. I'd do it again.

[RedCoyote]

Korlash called me pretty. <3 <3

[RedCoyote]

Maybe if you spent less time making pretty avatars and more time yelling at us we'd get the message.

KMD 25

Oh, and less undercutting your own arguments would probably help as well.

[RedCoyote]

What was my werewolf vote?

Yeah, farside helped me uncover something about werewolf. I'm not ashamed to admit that. I still fought for the damn wagon. Me and Dutch were probably the

last

people fighting for it. I didn't say, "Okay, I'm voting werewolf, but it's farside's fault if werewolf is town!!"

What was my Gorrad vote?

I finally see your horrible pattern. You just seek out whenever I have the audacity to reference another player in the game for something. Not even to agree with them or disagree, me just

invoking

someone else's name is scummy. This is truly pathetic. In the quote you pick out, I am clearly stating that I'm voting Gorrad over something he did in response to another player that I pointed out. There's nothing wrong with that whatsoever. You're losin' it, pal. I'm not even going to address the rest of them because it will be the same response. No one forces my hand. Scumhunting is piecing together a collection of responses in collusion. These responses are fundamentally tied to other players someway or another. That's it. For you to say otherwise is disingenuous.

---

rc has nothign to say in his defence other than "im taken out of context pls dont be mean you big meanies i am at yoru mercy" lynch rc imo

i hate u so mach...

---

I know it isn't phrased as a question, but I was kind of hoping to see a response to this, Coyote.

I think I decided a few pages back that PF was probably town (same with Cyberbob), let me see if I can dig it up. Yeah, here, bottom of this post. I still think this.

[RedCoyote]

No. You said, and it was "Farside found this thing. Hence, vote."

I still don't think you're being very fair, Spy. I mean, sure, that was a big part of the vote, but you make it sound like I never talked about werewolf before or after that point. That isn't the case.

I just don't know if it's worth kicking you over this though. In the past, if I had a scumread on you, it would really be a confident one. The Xtoxm issue and the apathy issue are sort of clouding that right now, but, ugh, I'm still really leaning on a townread for you.

---

You guys are really going to make me spell this out.

-Xtoxm gave a town/scum list. He said ONLY TOWN order was relevant. Inhim was at the VERY BOTTOM in towniness.
-Xtoxm said he went after someone who he thought was town and wouldn't be NKd. Inhim was at the BOTTOM of his town list.
-Xtoxm later shows some support for an Inhim lynch, someone who was just on his TOWN list.

Kmd's heart is in the right place, I think, but he's doing himself a disservice to be so aggressive in his description of Xtoxm's reads. It just cannot be the primary factor weighing in on our lynch today. I thought it could earlier today, but it's apparent Xtoxm did not play an optimal Hider game this game. Heck, the living players are basically cut in half between townreads and neutral/scumreads. We can basically rule it down to 4 or 5 likely players he hid behind if he kept the same strategy of hiding behind "town" players, but, I mean, you're still not really moving forward with that.

Actually, strike that lost point, because that does really invalidate the wagons on me and Spy in the sense that neither of us were ever on his town side at any time going by his posts.

In other words, if Xtoxm is to have an impact on our lynch at all, we should lynch someone from the town side of his reads.

[RedCoyote]

Oh, fun! I'm playing with Ojanen.

Oh, damn. I'm still playing with Cyberbob.

[RedCoyote]

DGB, why did you even bother to calculate the scumputer then?

(Sorry, this is a little bit late of a response, but it just occurred to me.)

[RedCoyote]

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. I've got Cyberbob and Pokerface as scum. Inhim, not so much.

Point?

What do you mean? The point is pretty clear. You've got some clear results here and you're kind of just dismissing them. My question is why you bothered with it at all. And don't give me that, "Well, it's imperfect" line again. Why is it not relevant in this game then?

[RedCoyote]

I have no interest in lynching a townie.

Oh, just nevermind. DGB, give me a ring when you're ready to start taking the game seriously.

[RedCoyote]

I wish the deadline were tomorrow.

[RedCoyote]

This doesn't sound like a logical 1 2 3 process especially 1 to 2

I don't remember doing 1, unless you can refresh my memory. The closest I got was that I was saying it was going to be guesswork (which it still is, btw). I wasn't trying to rule out reading Xtoxm, I was just stating a fact. Xtoxm, in my opinion, did not give the town enough to work on. He dropped the ball in this game.

The rest of your posts seems fine without me going over it with a fine tooth comb.

If you would've told me weeks ago that I'd be in a large game that SpyreX was holding up the day for no good reason then I would've laughed in your face. I don't like this new Spy. Where's the bloodlust? He even criticizes me for getting the game moving along! I bring this up not just to mess with him, but because I want it on the record that while my intuition tells me Spy is probably town, his uncharacteristic attitude is telling me the opposite. This day has gone on far too long. Everyone not on inHim's wagon is holding this game up for selfish reasons. Either get on him or put some muscle behind an alternative wagon. This is ridiculous for a game with this many solid players in it to stagnate like this. No, it's not just Dutch and Antihero, although they deserve to be scolded. It's also the person who has been lounging on Kmd for however long, or the people who think their RC and Cyberbob votes look at all relevant anymore. If your main antagonist is not catching votes then it's time to find his (or her) sidekick and move your vote. Please.

[RedCoyote]

It's not a function of holding up the SURE FIRE WAGON. This is a disguised self-preservation measure and a bad one at that.

If there's an alternative, then you need to make it happen or you need to conform. Period. You can cry self-preservation all you want, it just makes you sound whiny.

Also I love how you post a mountain of text as though no one has seen it before. Another week's worth of discussion, please, Mod! Courtesy of your friend SpyreX!

[RedCoyote]

Wonderful. Oj will read up the thread and give Spy the smackdown that I can't deliver.

(Be gentle on him though, because he's probably town).

[RedCoyote]

I've got a few of your teeth here, Spy, but I'm telling you the flip will be worth it.

[RedCoyote]

Hmmm...

I feel like I'm pretty offbase with my reads this game. I think I need to do something I should've done a long time ago: submit my freewill to our resident scumhunting goddess.

Vote: Cyberbob

If my scumreads are town... then I guess my townreads are scum.

[RedCoyote]

*stares at Antihero until he posts*

[RedCoyote]

Do you have something you want to say?

[RedCoyote]

Not particularly. You've got the touch of indifference to this town, so I have faith that my wagon will not succeed.

[RedCoyote]

Mod

, please try to replace Antihero.

[RedCoyote]

Whoever said IAUN is scum might be right. He's asking pointless questions about other players being scum, for other players to answer.

Let's be honest. You'll take anyone's lynch.

[RedCoyote]

Kmd4390 (hasn't posted because working on fakeclaim scum-tell, mega-lurking, bizarre contribution

based on first 7 pages,

WITH VOTE

, scummy as all hell) - needs a good lynching.

But, yeah, she does like Korlash. We all like Korlash; he's the new yabba.

[RedCoyote]

By the by, are there any other power roles? Does the town only have Hider + RB + Vig? Seems kind of stunted when we know there was an SK and a Mafia Suicide Bomber.

The reason I ask is because this game is getting pretty long. I don't see much benefit to continued hiding. If we have any sort of investigative role at all, it would seem like now would be as good of time as any to show some results.

Without coming across like rolefishing, I think I know who the Vig is. The only reason I say this is because with a little added information I think the lynch will be narrowed down considerably today.

[RedCoyote]

Antihero, you slacker, I know you're out there. You've been posting in every game you're in (and quite actively, might I add) except this one. Give up the slot or get your butt in here. You've got freaking results for us, man.

[RedCoyote]

Well, the idea being that the people he blocked are a little less likely to be scum (couldn't submit kill). I'm just thinking it would improve our chances at hitting scum.

[RedCoyote]

Drunken excuses scumtell added to the wiki.

honestly bullshit things like this make me not want to play anymore

Did I catch you for the wrong reason?

As far as the Bob thing goes I think both sides are being stupid. DGB is the only one actually pushing the Cyber vote/attacks for the correct reason while everyone else piddles about in conspiracy theories that would make even steadfast bigfoot believers shake their heads in utter disappointment

I'm just doing what the scumputer tells me to at this point. I obviously cannot scumhunt accurately in this game with my own brain. I mean, I know this is rather blunt, but I honestly am a little forlorn. The negative emotions attached to being so wrong about my independent reads are eating at me. I wasn't right about werewolf, I wasn't right to hammer Gorrad, I wasn't right to hammer Chevre, and I wasn't right about inHim.

My conclusion then is that one of my comfortable townreads (Cyberbob) is probably not town.

So, you know, say good night, Bobby.

[RedCoyote]

Oh, and I've never seen Spy abandon a game before, but, sure enough, you wackos made him do it.

[RedCoyote]

Nacho, is DGB scum? Come on, you can tell me. She would've wanted you to.

[RedCoyote]

I have a feeling that Fate is stalking me.

[RedCoyote]

Fonz, you have something for us, yes?

Uhm how did you know in advance spyreX was going to jump out of the game?

He's my bro. You just know these things.

Plus he couldn't stop talking about how tired he was getting of Mafia for now. I hope to see him back soon.

[RedCoyote]

Well, I started to look back over ckd for connections (which I regrettably neglected to really do in favor of pursuing a two or three really leads that ended up being complete dead ends), but since this day started, I've been kind of in the dumps here. I think that feeling is contagious, too, because it seems like there is a really big sense of stagnation here. All I see is Cyberbob, and I don't know how to fix that.

I'm fully prepared to not lead right now. Take that statement how you will, but I do not feel comfortable enough in my ability to scumhunt in this game right now. I don't know why, but hopefully it will be made clear who is pulling the strings when this game is over. As Fonz alluded to, it makes me think that a player like DGB, Korlash, or username is really doing a bang up job in misleading the town and shooting at it's morale, but I have no grounds with which to really pursue any of these players even if I wanted to. So, I mean, I've resigned myself, at least for D4, to be a follower. I feel like I had a huge part in the inHim mislynch, the would-be werewolf mislynch, and, of course, I was responsible for hammering both Gorrad and Chevre.

I don't know why I keep putting myself down, but I'm just trying to rationalize my ineffectiveness finding its way into my perfunctory activity and unassuming Cyberbob vote. I'm crying out for some leadership on the part of Ojanen, Fate, Fonz, Korlash, PF, or username here, all of which I have stable townreads on at this point.

That's way more honest than it needs to be, but it's the truth.

Otherwise we just need to get rid of Cyberbob and be done with it.

[RedCoyote]

Oh, good. Fate decided to join us. I wonder if Fonz has given us some results yet. I'll have to check this thread later.

[RedCoyote]

That's actually kinda a town tell. Most scumgroups I've been in talk at night about who looks lynchable, who will need to be killed, who's a fellow traveller... makes it harder to make that kind of mistake, imho.

I actually think this is a pretty solid rebuttal. I hadn't noticed the comment at the time, but, yeah, I'd suspect a town-aligned player would be less likely to tell you the living/dead players accurately under the current circumstances.

---

I think it's a null tell simply because we don't know what the scum have or have not discussed.

If scum are to talk about anything, it would be the kill. I mean, this is like, during a papal election process, saying a cardinal publicly announcing the name of another cardinal is null.

I mean, that's kind of a weird analogy, but the point I'm making is that to suggest that the mafia wouldn't have discussed their night kill is silly.

---

DGB might be a percentage lynch, so i can't see either of Kmd and CB being scum without her.

Agreed, to a degree.

On the one hand, it's hard for me to see how DGB survived this long. On the other hand, if you look at the (likely) scumkills in farside, Xtoxm, and yabbaguy... these were all fairly strong, reasonable kills. farside was an obvious townie to me, but the only kill that could've been arguable. Xtoxm had claimed prior to being shot and yabbaguy was virtually confirmed by Xtoxm prior to being shot.

---

Can someone give me their take on cyberbob and ckd during day 2?

Their awkward interactions can go both ways. Cyberbob changes his vote a lot. I don't know if this is common practice for him or not, but he went through this strange period during D2 where he was explaining an Antihero vote to him, then he called him out for having a post that was poorly structured soon thereafter. It was weird. I think ckd was his main suspect, but he acted like he wanted someone else to give him a reason for it not to be, I guess?

---

Fonz, when I'm scum and my buddies talk about who to lynch, I mostly ignore it.

You should drop this point. You're making yourself look silly. I wouldn't use the word silly except for the fact that I'm being polite.

---

Okay, so I haven't done as much reading as I should have, but I'm not lynching Cyberbob today because it feels too much like a policy lynch.

Be that as it may, there are few better options before us. The only other person I feel like I'd be willing to possibly entertain would be DGB, but, boy, that would be a real gamble. I don't think you'd be up for that either.

First of all, why the hell would you look for connections with a MAFIA SUICIDE BOMBER?
He knew he wasn't going to survive. So the first thing on his mind was not leaving true connections/making sure to leave false ones.

As already mentioned, scum are going to have connections with other scum. Period. If you know who your partners are and you make posts in the game thread, you're just going to have some sort of connections. That's what playing this game is all about. I don't care what role you are. Just because he was a Suicide Bomber doesn't mean ckd can flip a little switch in his head and be completely removed from his partners. Nah, no dice. Crappy argument, Nacho.

what leads were you looking at before? Why did they die? Do you have any analysis from them? Why don't you want to lead if you believe the town is being mislead? If the town isn't being mislead, why is it getting crushed so badly? Haven't you ever played mafia and mislynched before? Did you give up then? Why would you rolefish if you didn't have significant reason to?

RC, I want you to get back into the game like now. Your posts about not knowing what to do is pitiful and depressing and you are making the entirety of Texans look bad. So where is your Texan pride, RedCoyote?

I didn't do my due diligence in connecting inHim to ckd; that was a mistake on my part. Why did who die? Not particularly. I don't think he was very much into the game, especially towards the end. I don't believe that, I suggested that it might be the case. I would debate the term "crushed". Yes. No. It's not rolefishing.

Okay. Psh. I'm here, but where are you?

---

GLAD I DONT HAVE TO DEAL WITH LYNCHING RC SCUM THIS GAME AMIRITE.

Yes, you're right.

It would've been quite a different game had those lynches came to fruition. My Runner read is significantly changed by Ojanen's replacing in, and the same goes with Kat / PokerFace. The former might be worth looking back into, but the latter I'm no longer interested in. Antihero/Fonz still gets a pass for now because he has some information for us.

Math wiz' how many scum are left?

2 or 3, I'd suspect. Depending on what kind of power they have.

---

I dunno, with the level of apathy in this game before the recent replacement fest, I wouldn't be suprised if the scum convo amounted to "let's kill yabbaguy" "ok". Scum that lurk in the game thread tend to lurk in the scum QT as well, from my experience.

Cyberbob's mistake shows that he is obviously not updating his suspicions based on the new information we get at the start/end of each day, which I think suggests that he's not getting any new information - ie, he already knew inhim was town. I think if he was town, then the flip would come as something of a surprise, and would therefore be more likely to actually stick in his memory.

This is a good point. Look, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I think Cyberbob is town all of a sudden, I just don't think this is as big of a deal as you're making here. I see your logic, I just firmly disagree with the idea that scum aren't going to inherently be aware of who it is that is living or dead on a level above that of a townie. Theoretically there shouldn't be much of a difference, but it's all speculative anyways.

And while we're on that subject, everyone else completely ignored the suggestion when RC brought it up, but I still think it's a pretty good idea. What does everyone else think?

I still support this, btw.

---

Also, building a case on a low Day 1 post count makes no sense because:
A) my sitewide post count was just as low
B) you will NOT find a game in my entire mafia career where I thought "hey, lurking here is a GREAT strategy". There is just no reason to ever do it intentionally. Any time I ever have has been a lack of time and/or interest.

Why are you getting in such a defensive mode here? I mean, granted, username just brought this up, but it's still like you're pre-defending yourself. If you had an offense to speak of today besides "let's see where this goes... vote: DGB", then maybe you wouldn't have to worry about whatever post count Fate/username is going to dig up against you.

---

1) Katsuki was clearly town.

No.

2) Consider the whole Antihero/Xtoxm claim farrago, which makes it very obvious Antihero was, and I am, town to anyone with more cognitive reasoning ability than your average acorn.

Let's not go crazy. You're likely town. Don't think for a second Antihero (now you) isn't just skating by on that roleclaim alone. You still owe us night action information, and I'm growing increasingly impatient with your reluctance to be open with us.

3) Then there's the scummy manner in which DGB tried to basically go 'LOL Scum roleblocker' in response to antihero's claim, only to find that no-one went along with her.

Agreed, but I was tempted.

---

I doubt we will gain alot from it but if you disagree or think its for the best, I may be down

Wow, could you be any more passive-aggressive?

---

Iam's not a terrible wagon

---

Bingo!

Lynch all liars, username?

I really hate to abandon the Cyberbob wagon though.

[RedCoyote]

Iam, in that game she asked WHERE to start reading. Here, she asked WHAT SHE SHOULD KNOW BEFORE (annoying not having a caps lock button) she reads.

Oh, wow. Talk about trying to slide through on a technicality. You know what? This comment deserves an

unvote

;

vote: Kmd4390

Red, I don't get your analogy. And I've always gotten pissed at people who accuse me of lurking intentionally. Like since I first started playing this dumb game.

It has nothing to do with you personally. I'm talking about this hypothetical scumchat. If you're going to tell me with a straight face that it's null for a player to mistakenly bring up a player that was lynched simply because we can't be certain if the scum talked about their night kill... I'm sorry, but that's dumb. That's a dumb point. Lurking or not, there's going to be some minimum level of discussion. I mean, look at the players in this game. You're going to tell me that Fonz, DGB, or Spyrex (just random names, not my suspects necessarily) aren't going to talk about their nightkill? Come off it, man.

---

ok, red why do you support mass claim at this point in the game?

Why not? The only thing I can think of is that we may give the Vig one or two more days, but, other than that, I think we would benefit more from locking the scum into claims.

---

I don't see what's policy lynch-esque about the Cyber wagon. He's tied to the dead scum more than anyone.

I know, but that's what kind of makes him a policy lynch to me. I mean, reading Cyber without any context in votes and lynches, he reads as town to me. That said, you look at the Scumputer, and, well, Cyberbob is scum without question.

If you're talking about night actions, no-one asked. I got on with scumhunting instead. For obvious reasons, I didn't pay too much attention to my predecessor, and no-one did the usual 'Before you're caught up, please state role and night actions' thing that I expect when replacing in for a claimed player, so as far I knew, antihero had claimed everything.

Okay, maybe that was a little harsh. I'm taking out some of my Antihero frustration on you.

Targeted Xtoxm then Cyberbob twice in a row.

Ugh. Ugh, ugh ugh.

Okay. I'm glad I changed my vote then.

Why? That course of action makes no sense for a scum RB.

You have to understand that Antihero was absolutely the biggest scumread in the game going into D2. You have to kind of read over a lot of the game to find out why (it deals with the debate over the werewolf versus Gorrad wagons in D1), but, suffice to say, he was my number one scumread going into D2. The claim saved him. After the claim, he just stopped posting. I mean, literally, he just strung us along from the end of D2 until you replaced in.

Which is why I don't have much love for your roleslot. As hesistant as I am to be DGB's right hand man, I'm even more hesistant of accepting your claim at face value. Your slot has brought us nothing but grief.

---

Honestly I've forgotten to follow along, did he already claim? Did he know you had blocked him? Has revealing this actually helped us out at all? What the hell Red...

Yeah, in retrospect we probably should've done it in reverse.

No matter. Cyberbob doesn't pay attention to the game anyways, so he probably won't notice.

Seriously though, it's a big deal that he blocked him twice though. Now I'm not sure if I want him lynched today. That's a big deal.

[RedCoyote]

Bye, Nacho! See us again soon!

[RedCoyote]

If you don't see the difference, you shouldn't be playing this game.

I see the difference, but it's so minute that it's silly to bring it up.

Inhim was LYNCHED, not NKD.

If you're going to tell me with a straight face that it's null for a player to mistakenly bring up a player that was

lynched

simply because we can't be certain if the scum talked about their night kill... I'm sorry, but that's dumb.

But the point is, since you're dodging it again with your fake ignorance act, that scum would know the living/dead players better than town would. Regardless of whether the player was killed or lynched.

[RedCoyote]

Korlash, you really like Kmd, eh?

[RedCoyote]

Because of your ignoring the wagon and pushing for lynches on people who you have no hope of getting successful wagons on (at least from where I'm coming from).

I mean, you've been pushing that Spyrex wagon since the first page of the game! Can't you take a hint?

[RedCoyote]

Mmmm.

Not looking good, Fonz. Not looking good at all.

[RedCoyote]

Don't make me choose between PF and username, Korlash.

Fonz, it's looking even worse for you now that you're absent.

[RedCoyote]

No, the logic, Fonz-man, is why aren't you dead?

Vote: The Fonz

Our claimed "Town Roleblocker" did not slip through 3 nightkills in succession. That's a pretty huge freaking liability for the scumteam. I was just barely willing to give him the fact that yabba and nocase (allegedly) were killed over him just due to the fact that they were both fairly heavily looked upon as town by most of us. DGB was not. Killing DGB seemingly at random as a VT over a Roleblocker? A Roleblocker that undoubtedly could stop one of their nightkills through scumhunting and with growing statistical probability? A Roleblocker that forced out our Hider? A Roleblocker that has done next to nothing in terms of scumhunting? A Roleblocker that is living on borrowed time thanks to his claim and his claim alone?

No, no, no, no, no!

Fonz has to die.

[RedCoyote]

Yeah, that's a good point about the Vig.

Still, I wouldn't say that "a lot" of players have suspicions on him. Really I think DGB was the only one seriously throwing any suspicion his way. Fate briefly mentioned it, but I shot it down (yesterday).

username, what do you have to say about this? I mean, Korlash is raising some good points here. Not to excuse myself of responsibility, but you were the primary reason the wagon got shifted to Kmd over Cyberbob yesterday. That's a pretty clearcut case of potential scum motivated maneuvering.

[RedCoyote]

Before this post, the vote count was this. After that post the vote count was this.

This is what makes me most receptive to your suggestion that username is scum, but I undoubtedly carry some of the weight having been on both inHim and Kmd's wagons myself. Under that context, I can easily see how username can be town.

Fonz is a completely different issue altogether though.

[RedCoyote]

What the heck! Korlash! I thought we were friends to the end. D:

This isn't woe is me, man. I'm stating exactly the issue I have with username and asking for his response to it. Hell, I even stated pretty plainly that I am

not

without blame for the Kmd lynch.

[RedCoyote]

No, Korlash, that's honesty. I've been straight up for the whole game. I am taking some blame because I am due some blame. That's what's fair. It's not a ploy to get you to see me as town. I'm trying to earn town points in spite of my shortcomings as a scumhunter. I'm not ashamed to say that I haven't been 100% on target here. Heck, I sold out my only accurate scumread in favor of Kmd. Kmd who, earlier, I swore up and down was a townie. Me, you, and Fate are all town. Okay, well, maybe I can't get you to agree that Fate is town, but the point is that Fonz is scummy mcscum. If there's a scum buddy after him, then I'm guessing it's one of username or PF.

Does that do anything for you at all? Fonz + username or Fonz + PF?

[RedCoyote]

Korlash, I told you not to make me choose between username and PF. I have solid townreads on both of them. I mean, I realize that one of them is probably scum, but I don't want to make the decision.

username is saying that if PF is not scum, then all of the scum would have had to have been playing incredibly low key given the vote counts on D1. Korlash is saying that it's a bogus argument because Kat's vote had little to no thought put into it. He seems to be voting username largely because Fonz has a meta of pushing cases against townies.

I'm going to tell you right now, Korlash, barring anything else, PF would probably get my vote here. Both players have been effective in earning townreads from me, but username has done a better job, despite his results. As a townie, I feel like I got a lot of the same reads he has throughout the game (more or less). The real thorn in username's side is the Cyberbob switch,

but

what almost washes that out is the fact that PF didn't fair much better. Let's face it, neither player pursued the Cyberbob wagon very hard yesterday, but username did so stronger than PF did. PF claims that he had a townread on Cyberbob, which is reasonable and fair, but if I'm going to get on username for moving the wagon away from Cyberbob, then I should hold PF at least somewhat accountable for not really pursuing it at all (notwithstanding his question in post 1901).

Let me get my ducks in a row here. Fate is off the table. I will not be voting Fate today (and possibly throughout the remainder of the game). Korlash, I'm really not interested in lynching you today either.

What does everyone think about Starbuck? Ojanen did a fair job to be sure, but Runner was as scummy as they come. Starbuck has not been interested in scumhunting at all. How does she fair vis-a-vis vote count analysis? I'm looking over it and a couple of things stick out: 1) Runner never casted a vote. 2) Ojanen helped get Antihero to claim by voting him. 3) Every subsequent and successive vote was effectively a useless one (Me, PF, and Cyberbob). 4) Starbuck didn't vote yesterday. 5) Starbuck still hasn't voted today.

This might be an acceptable alternative to PF/username. Any thoughts?

[RedCoyote]

I'm saying that the wagon in question happened in too short a time to put scope into who was on it. It happened in a time span of three hours, how incredibly low key do they have to be playing to not join a wagon in such a short amount of time? Barely a fraction of the players even posted so you can't make any arguments about whether scum were or were not avoiding it intentionally.

The thing is, the Chevre wagon continued to grow after Cyberbob's vote without anyone unvoting. werewolf, DGB, and farside all joined it in the next 6 or 7 pages before Chevre made that gigantic post that ckd latched onto. This is a better point than you're giving username credit for, Korlash.

The Chevre mislynch wagon on D1, at its peak, was:

Seraphim

,

inHimshallibe

,

Jerbs

, Katsuki,

Xalxe

,

Cyberbob

,

werewolf555

,

DGB

,

farside

. That's a lot of green for a mislynch. I'm not saying this is obvious or anything, but you've got to admit that at least, in this context, Kat doesn't look great.

Also, Korlash, I was trying to remember who else accused me of being too "woe is me" like you just did a little while ago. It was Cyberbob. Interesting.

What happened to your Fonz kick? And no, I don't see Starbuck getting the axe today.

I'm still on board with Fonz. Did you change your mind?

And why is Starbuck not getting the axe? What makes her so special despite not having done anything in the past two days?

Quick question, why is Fate off the table?

Because he's town. I know I've teased you a few times, but, in the end, I feel like I can read SpyreX fairly well. This was SpyreX town.

---

1. Why massclaim if the vig is going to claim vanilla? And with the, oh yeah, SCUMBLOCKER alive?

Yeah, I'm starting to lose hope that there is any other PRs, but you never know. Might as well lock the scum into a claim.

[RedCoyote]

I don't know what scumlist you're referring to, because I just went a looked back (finding it odd that you brought up you ever had a scumread of Korlash) and the only major criticism I found against him was here. Perhaps on your mental scumlist he reached further depths than you ever told us about, but you never voted him and I don't believe he has ever left your green "safe" section on your actual scumlist.

Anyways, that's of minor importance because I believe you.

As far as I'm concerned, this is a lynch between Starbuck, Fonz, and PF. As the possibilities whittle down in my head, PF is looking increasingly like someone I'd be comfortable voting.

[RedCoyote]

You take what we know now, couple it with our last scumputer report,

230 Cyber 50 + 50 + 50 + 50 + 25 + 5
198 iaun 50 + 50 + 33 + 25 + 40
190 Kats/Poker 50 + 50 + 50 + 40

133 Anti 50 + 50 + 33
123 Spy 50 + 33 + 40

115 RC 50 + 25 + 40
90 KMD 50 + 40
25 R/W 25

PF, it might be time for you to say good night.

[RedCoyote]

No, you're fine. VT here as well. Go ahead Starbuck.

[RedCoyote]

Let's all just calm down and type this ->

Unvote

;

vote: Starbuck

[RedCoyote]

You really think anyone is going to pat you on the back for spending two seconds looking at the Mod's end-of-day vote counts? How droll. You've been in this game for 18 days and you never casted a vote, never so much as gave this game the time of day. Either get out of here or give us something real to chew on.

[RedCoyote]

Also, how many people have to point it out before you stop? Just saying...

Cute.

I actually love this and hope we get to play together again soon, but I'm just saving my adoration of you and others for post-game.

Well I like to think the same about Poker. so if I believe you, that's you and fate gone, and if you believe me, me and poker, I think that makes Iam a hell of a lot better candidate no?

Then I guess we'll just have to lynch between Starbuck and Fonz, lashy. I told you I don't want you to make me choose between PF and username. Despite your pleas, I will not choose username over PF today. I mean, we can continue to beat around the bush, but my mind is pretty set.

[RedCoyote]

I don't know. Maybe. You live and die on "slips" like those. Listen, Korlash, we should force the mafia to make a move here. We should take out Starbuck here. No one has investigated her. As far as I know, Fonz hasn't blocked her. She claimed VT. It's a solid shot. PF is another solid shot, but if you feel strongly that he's town... I can respect that because I can totally sympathize with that. That's what makes Starbuck a logical alternative. I don't want to see Fate go. You don't want to see PF go. username and Fonz both of PR claims. I don't think Starbuck is our Vig given how little of a presence that role slot has had on this game (and I don't think the kills match up either, let me know if you want me to go into more detail about this).

Lynching Starbuck will put the scum in an awkward position with their NK if she's not scum.
Lynching username will give the scum a free shot at you and a possibility that you'll flip as the Vig if he's not scum.

[RedCoyote]

You would also be a solid shot, and unlike Starbuck would actually have evidence to suggest you being scum. (That I have seen at least) I don't like how you want to essentially do a random lynch in hopes the mafia does something we can catch them on tomorrow... I also don't see how the scum are in an awkward position if she flips town but it's probably best not to talk about it. I would like to see some actual reason to lynch her aside from "We do it and cross our fingers... what can go wrong?"

Moi? Lynched? Hah, surely you jest. Korlash would never allow that to happen to me, so just back off.

But seriously, in regards to the rest of your post, I absolutely have solid rationale behind a Starbuck lynch. First of all, her indignant attitude today. She's making it seem like I'm the bad guy for asking her to participate in the game or leave it. If she was town, she'd sympathize with my want of her slot to give us more information. As scum, it's probably more likely that she'd get feisty in an attempt to play on your earlier inklings that I'm scum. She probably thinks she can get whoever is town between you, PF, and Fonz to vote me if she needs to (I don't know whether this is actually the case or not, I'm just guessing this is what she's thinking when she uses her hostility). You couple that with a scumbuddy moving on the wagon, and that might very well be a lynch.

As I said earlier, the combination of her and Ojanen has been absolutely uninvolved in these past three lynches and this game as a whole. I don't have to tell you how solid of a strategy it is for scum to play the lurking card as long as they're allowed to get away with it (and immediately start producing activity as soon as someone calls them out on it). You have to admit, regardless whether you think this is scummy or not, it's certainly not a pro-town tactic.

Prior to these two ladies, we had Runner. Now, had I have gotten my way, I'd have loved to see Runner lynched on the first day. Let me give you a recap as to why (because it was sometime ago):

I don't see the cases on Gorrad and Chevre here, can anyone help?

Here's some help: why don't you figure it out for yourself and decide whether it is bunk or not. Why are you asking other players (who are potential scum) to pick up your slack? Either this is a big, fat newbie card (even though he was on the website six months prior to this game starting), or he's trying to act diplomatic. Either way, he should have his own reads. I called him out for this, but if that isn't bad enough...

No one wants to step up? All I'm seeing is 1 line of nothing and a big vote on one of these 2. Honestly, these 2 are the ones making some sense here.

...he rubs it in our faces again. He's acting like he wants to call the cases on Gorrad and Chevre crap (probably because he knows they are both town), but he doesn't have the balls to challenge any of the wagons. He's making it look like he's inquisitive, but in reality he's probably just laying the groundwork for a future rise against the people voting Gorrad and Chevre.

And curiouswhatever, is that what you do to players like Dutch? We're humans; we all make mistakes. You could have just told him to answer your question(s?) instead of voting him, like Jerbs.

This is a big time, out-of-the-blue defense of dutch. I have no idea what sparked this, but I absolutely hated it when I first saw it. This comment really got this man moving up my list quickly.

I see the case on farside, Gorrad, and Antihero, Seraphim. See a few other votes around, don't think they're cases though - mainly Jerbs and Dutch one.

This is just him doubletalking in a response to me. This is what shot him up to number 2 on my scumlist. He said, just a couple of pages ago, that he didn't see the case on Gorrad. As of this post, apparently he does see it, but refuses to really comment on it. The only thing I know for sure about him at this point is he's confident enough in his dutchtown read that he was willing to fight ckd to defend dutch's humanity.

He replaced out not long after this, but you get the idea.

---

Actually, we probably don't need Fonz to claim. If scum truly aren't going after Fonz (

because he's on their team

), then this will put the scum in even more of a bad situation. A Starbuck lynch is just looking better and better, guys. We rid ourselves of that deadweight, force the scum to make a move between Fonz and the Vig once more, and we should be in good position. What could go wrong?

[RedCoyote]

Iam, if you were only two-shot, why did you not claim IMMEDIATELY that you got your second result?

I have an opinion about this, but I want to wait and see what username says.

---

But I think you're a little too hard on Starbuck though. I think a replacement who comes into a 70+ page game like this one would more then often end up the way she has, regardless of the role given.

I don't think so. She saw the page count coming in. If she didn't want to bother with the length of the game, then she didn't have to replace in. Simple. Replacements are lovely if they actually want to replace. If she was going to be too busy to play the game, fine, but just don't join us then. The ball is totally in her court. If she doesn't want to face my calls for an "easy lynch", then all she has to do is give us a little effort (the very thing she implicitly told the Mod she'd do when she agreed to join the game).

Your unwillingness to bend here really doesn't suit you, Korlash. I mean, I juxtapose Fate and Starbuck coming into this game (and they came roughly the same time)... it's night and day, my man. I'm not saying Starbuck would necessarily be so lackadaisical as scum, but I'm coupling this with other behavior in the game. Overall I do not like that role slot. I don't care if it was the Queen Elizabeth playing with us; I'd still be satisfied with that slot being lynched as of right now.

---

Given I still only see xtoxm going to spyreX/fate or Korlash

That's too far back and still full of WIFOM given inHim's flip. You're going to have to sell us hard on either of those lynches.

Hider: At night, choose a player to hide with. You will only die if they die.

Oh, wow.

---

Fate, step it up. Important crap is going on in this thread. You need to be here.

[RedCoyote]

Korlash, I don't know how else I can honestly explain to you that I don't want a Starbuck lynch out of practicality alone. I mean, because you strike me as a prudent individual, then that's part of my argument, yes, but perhaps that's just me misreading you.

To be unequivocal, yes, I see Starbuck as our more conducive chance at a scum flip, but, more than that, I do genuinely dislike that slot as town.

I'll grant you I have been somewhat mum during the middle of the game on my suspicions on this slot. Weatherman/Ojanen struck me as fairly protown, but they've always been kind of lingering on the backburner for me. You've implied that you feel the same way (I don't know if the same sort of lacking of Weatherman/Ojanen/Starbuck talk has been present in your posts like it was with me though, I'd have to investigate that).

Anyways, I need to bring more people into this argument (the problem is, of course, I see Fonz and PF as much more likely scum contenders than I do Korlash. Additionally, since both slots are replacements, they won't necessarily be as adept at understanding the peaks and valleys of that slot as a whole). In any case, Fonz, PF, do you guys see where I'm coming from? This is a lynch we can coalesce around, sure, but, more than that, I think there's a darn good chance that we'll get a scum flip out of it (for reasons I've touched on numerous occasions over the course of this game).

[RedCoyote]

Well, the reason I was going to assume why username hadn't claimed earlier was because there was no sense putting a target on DGB or Korlash's back given that none of Korlash, DGB, or even username were particularly popular lynch wagons yesterday. Claiming an innocent on someone is just going to make them more likely to be night killed. I didn't want to say this because I didn't want to "give" username an answer. Moreover, claiming an innocent on DGB yesterday would've just given the scum a greater reason to kill DGB anyways.

I don't think any of this changes anything. We need to put the burden on the scum to make sense of this. The worst case scenario here is lynching username, who flips Cop, and having Korlash be shot overnight. That would be the worst thing we could do. Hell, it'd be better to lynch Korlash if only because username could still be scum if Korlash flips town. I don't want to do either of these things though. Everyone knows what I want to do. I'm growing increasingly frustrated over the fact that everyone except me and Fate are so hesitant to act. It tells me that my Fatetown read is right on the money and it also tells me that the remaining scum are lying in wait, praying that the Starbuck wagon will somehow be derailed.

[RedCoyote]

because I thought he was indicating that he'd picked up on my hints.

Oh, no. I appreciate you thinking that highly of my deductive skills, but that's just my lack of vocabulary talking. It makes more sense now, but I want to address something else...

Yeah, I fucked up. I must profusely apologise if my attempts to be sneaky end up getting me lynched and ultimately losing us the game. I probably should have just claimed truthfully in the first place, but at the time, it simply didn't occur to me that a two-shot cop would probably want to play things slightly differently to an odd night cop up to this point, and therefore that my claim would be at all questionable. I did not expect this to happen.

...the fact that you're beating yourself up too much. I don't know why everyone is having such an issue with this gap between investigations in the first place. Why would scum have wanted to draw extra attention to themselves? Plus, in my opinion, even if you were two-shot, I'd see it as perfectly fine to investigate on D1 and D3. Sure, it's a little more risky, but, like you said, the longer you hold off, the better odds you have at getting a solid result. Maybe I'm naive, but I just don't think it was such a big deal.

In either case, what's done is done. Fate, you're really barking up the wrong tree, bud. username is not scum. I'm telling you, scum would not have put all this pressure on themselves over a claim.

But yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm not going to vote for Starbuck, because she doesn't have a plausible partner unless I put PokerFace back on the table, in which case he is the better lynch by far. Red, who do you think is Starbuck's partner?

You know, now that you bring this up, are you referring to the Weatherman vs Antihero battle back when as evidence that these two would not be partners? Hm, you know, that's actually a good point.

I mean, if Starbuck can't be partners with Fonz, then that really throws a wrench in my thought process. I honestly didn't even consider this until you just asked me now, but Starbuck would probably not make a good Fonz partner. I was so busy thinking up rationale to lynch Starbuck that I completely forgot about her buddy. That would be some heavy bussing if she was. The only thing I can think of, and I wouldn't put it by Ojanen to come up with something like this, is that she wanted Antihero to claim on D2 and make him look more townie just by virtue of the fact that he's a PR. That's a real stretch though, and one I don't think I'm prepared to make the argument for.

Unvote

This really puts me in a bind though.

If I take you, me, and Korlash off the table, that leaves Fate (who is back on the table because I simply have no reasonable alternative any longer; I still don't really think he's scum), Starbuck, Fonz, and PF on.

Now I just said that I cannot see a Starbuck-Fonz partnership. I'm getting rid of that.

Starbuck-PF
Starbuck-Fate
Fate-PF
Fate-Fonz
Fonz-PF

Help me reconcile this list. From where I'm standing, PF looks like the person that needs to go today. I need to spend a little time going back and figuring out which of these connections work based on vote counts and stances.

[RedCoyote]

Huh? What? Can you run that underlined part by me that doesn't make sence. Where would that get us and do you suspect Korlash?

Try reading the sentence immediately after that.

---

Something keeps nagging on the back of my brain with Fate, but I've got to give him that same credit I gave Spy. I just can't put that slot as scum over PF right now.

I've been meaning to add that I think username and Fonz gave PF too much credit for "stopping" Fonz from claiming his results. I mean, it was a pretty rational conclusion. The only person who deserves/doesn't deserve credit for making the decision on whether or not to give his results is Fonz.

I'm truly worried we're at an impasse, and I don't know how it's going to be broken. Fonz needs to be a little more macro in his commentary because he's all over the place and I can't pinpoint him anywhere.

[RedCoyote]

Fate, who are you trying to sell a username lynch to? I'll tell you straight up that I won't be buying it (if it wasn't readily apparent by all my comments today).

[RedCoyote]

Damnit, Korlash. You were all up in PF's grill earlier this game. Then he makes one post about his reads and all of a sudden he's God's gift to townies?

[RedCoyote]

What were you even trying to say?

That Korlash is a better lynch than username.

---

So it's either Fate or Starbuck then?

Vote: Starbuck

[RedCoyote]

Gone until Sunday most likely.

[RedCoyote]

I haven't said content later or scum on my wagon.

Gosh, this is really so bad. If you deconstruct this sentence for she's actually saying here, she's just completely stonewalling Fate (and, by extension, all of us).

So do you think there is scum on your wagon or don't you?

I haven't been caught on any scum tells because I'm not scum.

Your smug anti-town act is not convincing me at all.

---

he tries to accuse the Bob wagon of being a 'policy lynch' which wasn't true

I will say, in complete honesty, that I saw Cyber as town throughout the majority of this game. The only point that I ever really changed that was yesterday when I was feeling particularly down thanks to the unsuccessful predictions I had consistently had up until that point. I wanted to strongly emphasize that I was completely doing a 180 on Cyber mostly because of DGB's scumhunting.

---

Starbuck is playing the "I'm so cheeky and obstinate I'm townnn" card.

I lynch that shit on site. Sbuck has not done one protown thing since replacing in

I wish you were around when Ojanen had the slot. D1 and D2 were fun as hell, man.

But, yeah, that's the perfect word for it. Cheeky. Obstinate. Bull-headed. She won't give an inch, and I don't know what to do to make her.

She should not be rewarded for this behavior though, I know that much.

I've laid out the case here, here, and here. If Starbuck was willing to give us anything, anything at all, then I might be willing to really make the push for PF today, who I think has an equal or better shot at flipping scum, but there's still absolutely solid precedent for lynching Starbuck today. It should not be thought of as something to settle on, but as a very rational choice.

There are two very important questions you can ask yourself that will help you come to realization that Starbuck is a good choice.

1) Who do I think is least likely to be the Vig?

The answer is Starbuck. The kills clearly don't matchup with the slot's suspicions. I can elaborate on this if necessary, but it would do you good to look over this yourselves. I cannot say the same thing about Fate at all. The people voting Fate need to seriously go sync these two players up side-by-side if they haven't already.

2) Who has had the least impact on this game overall?

The Mod has 42 VCs in this game.

Total VCs Starbuck's slot is voting no one:

27 of 42

(if that doesn't put things into perspective, I don't know what will.)
Total VCs Fate's slot is voting no one: 2 of 42
Total VCs RC is voting no one: 1 of 42

There have been four lynches in this game.

Total amount of lynch wagons Starbuck's slot was on: 0 of 4
Total amount of lynch wagons Fate's slot was on: 2 of 4
Total amount of lynch wagons RC was on: 4 of 4

Starbuck claims her not being a factor in this game is a positive for her, and me and Fate (even though 2 out of 4 is not a large amount by any stretch) being on a lot of lynch wagons is bad news for our slots. I can tell you right now that I would take being on four mislynches over no lynches at all coming into D5 any day of the week. For all the bad things you can say about me, I have been trying in this game. Starbuck's slot is the one that has been coasting. Her not voting in 27 of 42 VCs is unheard of. Hell, the only reason why it isn't, like, 31 of 42 is because I basically twisted her arm to MAKE her vote today. If I hadn't have turned the screws on her, she might

still

be voting no one.

Korlash, username, and Fonz, consider the above. Please don't tell me Fate is a better lynch here. Like I said, I'd be more than willing to argue the merits of PF today, but, otherwise, Starbuck needs to go. No amount of gut can write the heaping amount of evidence here off. It is unacceptable for you to simply dismiss her for being cheeky any longer. She's being lynched on a firm foundation of scummy behavior.

[RedCoyote]

That's all you have to say?

[RedCoyote]

Give me a quote, please.

• I know I really haven't brought anything to the table. It's been awhile since I've replaced in to a game longer than 20-30 pages.

If you thought not bringing anything to the table was scummy, you wouldn't be doing it, no? I mean, by all means, correct me if I'm wrong. I'd love nothing more than for you to tell us more about your performance in this game.

You also didn't "basically twist my arm". Quit taking credit where there's no credit to take.

Actions speak louder than words, hon.

You've been in this game for 18 days and you never casted a vote, never so much as gave this game the time of day. Either get out of here or give us something real to chew on.

Ten Minutes Later (Literally)...

But that's okay because as scum, you'll latch on to that to make me look scummy and get an easy lynch out of it.

Vote: RedCoyote

[RedCoyote]

But I have brought items of discussion to the table. It may not be exactly what you are looking for me to bring, but I brought some bacon.

The point is, whenever anyone has asked you do to more than throw up some VCs, you've basically told us to just deal with your nonchalance. That's fine, but then you can't turn around and say that you aren't using that as a tool to make yourself look townie. If you weren't then you wouldn't be doing it in the first place.

But you still didn't twist my arm, dear.

So it's just purely a coincidence?

---

I don't actually think lynching someone else qualifies as rewarding Star...

If she's scum it is.

If not being the vig makes a person scum then I'm afraid for us... That seems to be a lot of scum...

What do you mean? I've been on this point for a while. It's a serious consideration in our lynch process. Are you prepared to rule Fate out as the Vig? Ask yourself that, because I'm prepared to rule Starbuck out as the Vig.

The most replaced slot has had the least impact on the game? No wai... That's not true... That's impossible!!!!

Quit coddling her. She's a big girl. This is the second or third time you've been willing to make excuses for her. Stop it.

Didn't want to put me in that list eh? Afraid she wouldn't stand out as much?

Why would I? You're not going to be lynched today if I have anything to say about it.

that only makes it worse to me.

Why? You don't work off of your townreads in games?

Will you actually be able to, at some point, provide a quote to back this one up?

I know I really haven't brought anything to the table. It's been awhile since I've replaced in to a game longer than 20-30 pages.

---

Hey Red Coyote will you please stop talking about who may and may not be vig. This isn't AiTP but if it was you would be doing a terrible job. You don't talk about or say anything that hints at who is king there in the slightest so I don't think you should be saying anything like that in terms of who is vig

No, I won't. We need to take it into consideration. I'm not saying we should all be public with our analysis on who is most likely to be Vig or not, but we should delicately factor it into our considerations. I personally do not think Starbuck is as likely to be the Vig as the rest of the players, and this seriously changes my perspective of the game.

Aside from how I have voted in this game being "wrong and often" as DGB pointed out in analysis, are there other reasons you would be willing to discuss a lynch on me? You, me, and even Fate at one point as well were all wrong about cyberbob so unless you see some difference in what we said, I am not sure why you are so pro lynch me

Well, I mean, I didn't want to have to do another full on case, but since it seems like I'm the only one around here with the balls to take a leadership role in this game, I might just be forced into that position.

First off, logically I should choose between you and Fate. This is because I cannot see a Starbuck-Fonz partnership at all. I've ruled this out. I'm also ruling out username and Korlash because, frankly, I believe username. This means I have three possibilities of scumteams with either you and Fate in them, and only two with Fonz and Starbuck. Now, because everyone is so hot and bothered to get Fate out, my hand is kind of forced to choose between Starbuck and Fate. I have went back and forth on the roleslot, but I came to the conclusion that I just did not see Spy as scum this game. I generally have a pretty good feel for Spyrex as scum, and can verify this through meta. This is not one of those times. I was torn with him all game, which is a sign to me on a personal level that he's less likely to be scum. When you compare Fate and Starbuck content-wise, there's just no contest whatsoever. Maybe Starbuck feels slighted by my attacks, and this is causing her to be less inclined to put something up, but that's tough. I'd also contend that, before I really started to light a fire under her, she was doing even less than she was doing now. Unlike Fate, she is completely coasting. I think Fate is completely wrong about username, but at least I can give him props for trying to do something. Starbuck looked a couple of VCs and assumed that me and username were scum for lynching players earlier this game. That was and is the full extent of her content. In other words, Starbuck is a better lynch than Fate.

Secondly, in DGB's last scumputer report, you were ranked third behind Cyberbob and username. Cyber flipped scum. username is not going to be lynched today. That means you're up to bat. I'm more than willing to put a heaping amount of stock in these results given DGB's town flip and Cyber's scum flip.

Thirdly, I don't agree with username/Fonz/Korlash in the sense that you should be given any town points for your wanting to stop Fonz from claiming his results prematurely. This wasn't some sort of radical conclusion. I mean, it's debatable really. Both claiming and not claiming will help us, so it's not like you're bringing anything special to the table here.

Fourthly, we had the Chevre mislynch wagon on D1. There was a lot of town players on that wagon, and your slot is the only unrevealed name on there. I absolutely hated that Kat vote when she made it, and I still hate it two months after the fact (or however long it's been, I don't feel like looking).

I guess that's about all I can come up with without going into further depth of your posts.

I look through things and I'm very convinced all scum is in Red, Fate, Star. But I must admit I am having some paranoia issues with starbuck at the moment as a result of what Red has been saying. As korlash has pointed out to some degree, some of red's suspicions of Star carry very little weight. I am starting to think Red Coyote is grasping at straws with some of the weak reasons why he wants Star gone but I am uncertain why he would be grasping at such straws unless he's gone into scum panic mode

What are you going to do if Fate flips town, hm? Have you considered that contingency? Because I have. I'll tell you one thing for sure, I'd much prefer, all things being equal, having Fatetown tomorrow than I would having Starbucktown. You can take that to the bank.

Funny, I'm convinced all remaining scum is in you, Fonz, and Starbuck.

---

I'm pretty sure that's exactly what he's doing since I have put Fate at L-1.

Nice try. I thought this slot was town since long before you got here.

[RedCoyote]

If she thought it was scummy, she wouldn't do it, no?

[RedCoyote]

Stop talking about the Vig.

Look, you don't have to let it influence your decision, but you should. I'm going to talk about it until people take this decision seriously.

And yet me doing the same thing you are saying makes Star look bad doesn't factor to you?

One slight difference. One of you had an innocent investigation.

I don't vote someone and then try to put all the blame and reason onto someone else, no. By trying to obviously point out your vote was based on someone else's work and reasons you opt out of any responsibility of that vote.

What?!

Did you really just say I'm trying to skirt responsibility for my Cyber vote? You? The person who labeled me as "woe is me" for being TOO hard on myself over my switch from Cyber to Kmd? I suggest you change your tune.

By your own acceptance she must have been wrong about Iam. That doesn't bode well for her results. Sounds like you are just laying blame on DGB yet again. For someone who wants to be the leader you sure don't do a lot of your own playing.

How is one point in four "laying blame on DGB"? It influences my decision, just like it influenced my original Cyber vote. You guys are acting like this is a negative thing. I'm not ashamed to say I was strongly influenced by DGB. Period. If that's an issue with either of you, then you know what to do about it.

username is different because he has a PR. That takes precedence over anything else, and I shouldn't have to tell you that. Again, you're discounting his power. If you want to lynch username so badly, then man up and say it.

So stuff you think should be taken into consideration must be done and stuff we think should be taken into consideration is irrelevant?

Yeah, now you're getting it.

We could compromise. We could have both and just be down a RCscum... I'm cool with that, are you cool with that? Jeffs cool with that...

A better compromise would be a PF lynch... just sayin'.

[RedCoyote]

I still am thinking of one between Iam and RC and it's not because they are attacking me. They were on the bandwagon of every lynchee every single day of this game.

At least one, if not both, are scum.

If you still think this, why are you voting Fate?

[RedCoyote]

Fate, what do you think about a PF lynch?

I think we could make that happen. We'd be cutting out Korlash and Starbuck, but nobody likes them anyways.

[RedCoyote]

You wouldn't dare, old man.

[RedCoyote]

Oh, no, it's not me. Let's end this quickly because Fonz finally found me. I'm the Vig. I shot Fonz last night, but, obviously, was blocked.

PF had no reason to kill his partner yesterday over Starbuck. username is likely telling the truth.

username, you had to have had an investigation yesterday. It would be nice if you decided to use it on Starbuck or Fonz. If not, well, that still shouldn't be a big deal as long as there is only one scum left.

The Fonz should go first, Starbuck should go second. Anyone have any objections to that?

[RedCoyote]

Why the hell would you shoot at the fonz?

Why not? Him and I kept Fate fought very hard to keep Fate alive yesterday, and I know I'm not scum.

Because I don't believe they add up with your play

That was the idea, heh.

---

Certainly I don't think it's at all likely that Fonz is a scum roleblocker who can both block and kill in the same night, and chose to use neither on me.

That's a good point, but, on the other hand, he may have WIFOM'd that your investigation would be on me (which I don't blame you for, it probably made the most sense from where you were sitting).

I'd be surprised if it was Starbuck at this point only because I know she's firmly against bussing as a policy, but, you know, I still think she's much more likely than you or PF. I mean, I don't think we can lose here as long as you're telling the truth (I think you are) and PF didn't just pull some crazy gambit off.

[RedCoyote]

Actually, come to think of it, it may make more sense as Starbuck because that would give a logical reason for her shoddy play. She has just been uncomfortable for a majority of her time here because Fate twisted her arm to do some bussing strategy. In other words, she's dreaded having to post knowing that she was "supposed" to go at it with her buddy.

I mean, it's up to y'all. I'll go either of them first. I personally think it's Fonz if only because I had a much stronger scumread on Antihero than I did (for most of) the game against Starbuck's slot (yesterday notwithstanding because Starbuck was playing deliberately anti-town regardless of her alignment).

[RedCoyote]

And we all know how much Fate loves bussing.

*shrugs*

The only thing I think left to discuss is how comfortable PF is with username and vice versa. I'm willing to bet the game that you two are town, do you guys feel the same way about each other?

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP:

Why not? Him and I

kept Fate

fought very hard to keep Fate alive yesterday, and I know I'm not scum.

[RedCoyote]

That's a good plan, Fonz. Yeah, I think that covers every base except for username. That's about as good as you're going to get, I think. Am I willing to bank the game on the idea that username is town, after nearly six months of blood, sweat, and tears?

...

...

...

...

...

Yes!

Vote: Starbuck

Oh, that feels so sweet.

[RedCoyote]

My poor Fonzarelli, please don't torture yourself any longer with this.

[RedCoyote]

I suppose that's right, but, damn, I sure would hate to end up with a draw.

[RedCoyote]

Well, while the thread is open, Fonz, who did you block the night before last anyways?

[RedCoyote]

Fact fonz blocked read to stop and kill and that there still was a kill. This clears fonz

Yay I prefer Red shoot me and fonz block iam

Not necessarily. Generally when there is only a Roleblocker left on the scumteam he is given the ability to block and kill at the same time.

Of course you'd prefer that scenario, because then you get to be in username's position.

[RedCoyote]

Poker's behaviour here suggests he is BP scum, who wants to leave open the 'Fonz is scum' door tomorrow. Because if that's the case, Red's kill will fail, and his first suspicion will be of me, because I won't be able to prove I DIDN'T shoot him.

I was thinking the same thing.

[RedCoyote]

No, I don't think you're a GF and a RB. I already explained that, Fonz. You could've easily just out WIFOM'd username's investigation (given that you're running very low on options here if you're the sole scum). I mean, was it risky? Hell yes. Still, you had a chance that username may have investigated me yesterday, which gave you an opportunity not to kill or block username (knowing that his investigation may be useless if I were the Vig).

[RedCoyote]

No, PF, because then if Fonz is scum he can just shoot me. That doesn't work. The town has to bet the farm on either you or username being town, and, despite your hammer, username's overall game seems much more likely to be town to me. Especially his claim which seems pretty darn genuine.

[RedCoyote]

if Star flips town it must be me or iam. Red you need to kill one of us and lynch the other tomorrow because fonz ain't dumb scum

Okay, dude, you need to sit down and look at the scenario again. Your fingers are moving quicker than your brain here. Me and Fonz can't go to the end together. Even if I thought Fonz was for sure town, I'd still have to pick one between you two to take the end with us both.

Now, we can kill Fonz AND one of you two thanks to our two powers (me and Fonz's), so that's what we're going to do regardless. Fonz is going. No question. The only question would be whether we go with you being town or we go with username being town.

[RedCoyote]

PF, wow, okay, dude, in a group of A, B, and C, either we can eliminate A and B of the possibility of being scum, or we can just eliminate A. What, objectively, is better for the town to do?

[RedCoyote]

Red, Poker's math is correct. Me blocking Poker and you shooting Iam and me blocking Poker and you shooting me both allow us to remove two suspects. In either case, if there's a tomorrow it's poker and not the one you didn't shoot who's scum.

No, see, this is why I still think you're scum, you clever man. You're discounting your own block here. Yeah, the first night works. We could eliminate username, then it would be us three. After that, we could all agree to NL, which is fine and dandy, but then you still have your block. All you would have to do is block me and kill whoever you wanted. Therefore, we'd only be actually eliminating username as a suspect (as opposed to you + PF).

[RedCoyote]

you are not second suspect. You aren't any kind of suspect in my book.

If Star ain't dead scum then one of IAM or myself has to die and fonz should live

You need to take your heart out of the equation, PF. As much as you'd like it to be the case, Fonz is not cleared here (neither is username, for that matter, but that's a burden I'm willing to bear).

Although I don't know why I'm treating you both like townies. One of you deserves a gold star for your performance in the face of an inevitable loss here.

[RedCoyote]

Red why do you still suspect Fonz more than username seriously?

You keep comparing Fonz to username and yourself. Take Fonz out of the equation, man. He's gone. Period. He's not a factor. Town or scum, he's not going to be a factor in the end of this game.

You need to ask me why I suspect you over username, because that's the dilemma here.

Agh, stop talking to me, you slickster.

[RedCoyote]

Surprised this is still up, but, Fonz, I think we have a good plan here. I spent some time thinking long and hard about it, and I've come to the conclusion that username's claim just makes zero sense as a fakeclaim. The only thing I could possibly think of is if he were some kind of scum Role Cop, but, even then, for him to blindly claim an investigative role, the one role type that our town just so happens to be lacking, is too much of a coincidence to be fake. One thing that especially makes it good to me is the fact that the Hider has no way to be investigative at all, as, ironically, PF pointed out for us. He literally cannot find scum. If we had any other investigative role at all in this town, I'd be much more open to seeing username's as a fakeclaim. Otherwise, why did he rule out Korlash, a townie? For all he knew, he could've been the Vig (meaning that the Vig wouldn't have had to claim yesterday, which is absolutely not want the scum wanted). All of this spells out that username just cannot logically be scum. There is too much going against it. This doesn't even touch on the whole "leaving out I'm an odd-night Cop" thing, which absolutely fits with username's meta and doesn't at all make sense for a scum to do. Why put excess pressure on yourself over something like that? It's just icing on the cake that Fate, a known scum, tried to beat him over the head with it. PF, you're good though, man. You still have me second guessing myself enough to even go back and research username's prior Cop meta (something I generally do not do). username is a very thoughtful person when it comes to PRs, and, it fits that he held off his claim and held back information. He was trying to give the town an advantage. The fact that Fate went to all the trouble to attack his claim would mean that either Fate and username are not on the same side or that this was something that was thoroughly planned out. If it was planned out, why would he give an innocent investigation to Korlash AND leave Fonz alive AND both of them call me town? That's just nonsensical.

Oh, and follow that icing with the cherry on the top because username was the one who, I thought, did the most to dissuade me from a Starbuck lynch! He reminded me that Starbuck and Fonz couldn't be scum together due to D1/D2 shenanigans. If he hadn't have done that, I'd have probably stayed on Starbuck the entire day (as opposed to pushing both PF and Starbuck, especially PF at the end). So, like, in other words, username effectively tells me not to lynch from a group of myself (of course), Korlash, Starbuck, or Fonz? That's not to say that any of these players would've been lynched, but that just doesn't make logical sense from a scum perspective. Especially not with a Vig and a RB running around!

All of this combined means that, in order for username to be scum, he'd have had to willingly wanted to make the game as hard on his team as possible. Even though I'm fairly convinced PF is the scum here, we are sticking with the plan. I care more about the win than I do being ballsy. I would gladly do the same thing if the shoe were on the other foot, Fonz. We've got this game.

[RedCoyote]

Gosh, I can't tell you guys how disappointed I am. I'm downright depressed. I didn't want to lose this game. I spent a lot of time considering every one of my decisions, especially that last one. I can sit here and say that I suspected Fate and username as scum at some point, but the truth is it was never anything I took serious enough to change my mind. It was the kind of suspicions that we all have of everyone at some point. That freaking claim is what did it. The town had zero investigative roles (aside from the Hider). That's just not a very common practice for a game this size, and I couldn't get around that point. I definitely tip my hat to username here. He completely had me in his pocket. The dangerous/not dangerous thing was the tipping point in this game.

Korlash was amazing AND funny

I really enjoyed Korlash's posts as well. I'd really like to play with him again. Him and DGB had a much better read on this game than any of us did, I think.

I was stupid for doing so by RC

I don't think you're stupid. I never have and do not plan to ever call you stupid. I really wish you hadn't have joined this game because I think I've told you very firmly that I do not wish to play Mafia with you for the foreseeable future. I was extremely disappointed that you decided to replace into this game (let alone play it the way that you did).

I will never understand why red thought Fonz was scummy. Lurky =/= scum and i think that was only reason Red could suspect him.

Scum Roleblocker and Odd-night Cop made more sense to me than a town Roleblocker and a scum Ascetic(?). Fonz was hesistant to choose between Starbuck and Fate. He wasn't confirmed town for his claim any more than username was, PF. Plus, and I don't remember if you were around for a lot of this, but Antihero was incredibly scummy. I said multiple times that the only reason I was interested in keeping Antihero alive was on account of his role. Antihero outted our Hider (he had good intentions for doing so, but that didn't necessarily mean he was town). The roleblocking was either useless or hurt the town every night (except for the last couple of nights). The scum never shot him even though he had been out since D2. Anyway I sliced it, Fonz seemed to obviously be the more likely candidate to be lying than username did.

Actually, the really big mistake was RC claiming vig BEFORE we'd got Iam to claim his innocent.

This was something else I wanted to mention. I so regretted this after I made the post. Basically I thought that if I didn't hurry up and claim I may have been quicklynched. At that point I was just so convinced it was either you or Starbuck. There were a lot of things working against you, Fonz, that I don't know if was fully appreciated going into D6 (see above). That being said, I don't know what, if anything, you could've done to sooth my concerns. The fact is, username had

Ascetic - Immune to night actions (except kill)

Is this a normal role, KK? I don't think I've ever heard of this.

[RedCoyote]

I was kinda fretting at the end, because poker behaved EXACTLY the same here as he did in choose carefully, when I similarly thought him scum and he was town. But in the end, I think I did as well as I could given RC's tunnel on me to make sure town could take out 2/3 of the unconfirmeds that weren't me.

Look, friend, you can beat me up all you want, but I'm pretty sure we both saw eye-to-eye on the prospect of our willingness to lose this game if username was town here.

I never want to take away from the enjoyability of the game in the respect that you didn't want me here. Again, I wish you had said something to KK and Stepho could have replaced in instead of me. I see that I pretty much ruined whatever reputation I have because of TWD (your case showed that blatantly) and maybe I just need to stop playing mafia all together.

That's not my style.

Still, look, don't misunderstand me, Starbuck. I said it in TWD and I'll say it here. You and me both know this is just a dumb forum game. There are so many millions and millions of things more important in this world than this. I'm not going to lie to you, I was disappointed in seeing your name pop up, but, still, I don't think any less of you as a person. Your ability to play some dumb game has no real bearing on who you are as a person. I've seen your posts in GD and elsewhere; I know how wonderful and brave you must be as a human being. Neither this nor TWD has any reflection on that whatsoever, at least not in my eyes. I just hope you don't think I'm out to belittle you here personally in anyway. I mean, again, honestly I'd rather not play the game of Mafia with you for the forseeable future, but that says nothing about your real life character or what I may or may not think of it. None of us in this game really know one another except for what we've shared about ourselves outside of the context of the game.

I guess what I'm saying is please don't feel like I'm meaning to emotionally beat you up here. That's really not my intention. I just can't help but be frustrated with some of the game-based decisions you make when we play the game together.

@red don't feel bad. As a lover of the vig role you did well. Shot 3 out of 5 scum. Only mistake you made was suspecting Fonz. I can't fault you for suspecting me

I'm trying not to... it's just that I can't tell you how much thought process I put into this game over the ~5 months I was in it. I hate being town so much, let alone a townie with any sort of responsibility to lead. I mean, I don't hate it, I guess. That's kind of a strong word. I just dislike the idea of being town so much to begin with that this game really ate at me for a long time. I mean, I know it's cliche to say, but I honestly did go through everyone as a suspect multiple times. I'm sure every townie does this, but, it's like, I really felt like we had this one. And username is sitting here shrugging like it ain't no thing. It hurts so damn bad to lose this way.