NY 151: Playground Mafia (Game Over-Mafia Win!)
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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Let's see if by the time that everyone's finished confirming if I've finished doing my research (reading MD topics) for my soul search.
And then if I can actually make it work from the start of a game, rather than half-way through.
...Oh, wait. Khan Man.
So much for me being logical.
(Confirm.)My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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I have a section on the difference it makes on play in my thread. (Its town section needs...a little work. Part of my soul search will be reviewing and updating my MD work, everything from Mastin's Playertype Theory, to Mastin's Insane Tells, to Mastin's Guide to Playing Well, to Mastin's Guide to Scumhunting, to Mastin's Guide to VCA, heck, even A view on cops. All in the effort to make a better me.
Did you know I've posted in 149 MD threads? I've been going through many of them to see what pieces of advice I can pick up which has been lost over time as my play atrophied. Got around 33 left, though I won't be visiting the ones I know are irrelevant. Plus I've got a few which I've saved the links for, but which I only skimmed. It's a lot of work, but if the end result is a noticeable improvement in my play whereas I've previously stagnated for months? That progress will make it all worth the time put in.)My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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Your funeral, mate. That is, unless...In post 54, Benmage wrote:Glad your town.
Question, then--why aren't you proposing a quicklynch onWho else is? Mastin? I don't want to be town with him.me?My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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(Arg. This seems like the same old me. No improvement at all. *Might* be due to me not having actually sifted through the stuff I've gathered so far, but still...what good does doing all that theory research do, if I can't turn it into practice? >_<)My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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Wait.
I got it.
The answer.
A QT.
I haven't made one yet. Time to remedy that. I'd say "I'll be back soon", but quite frankly, I'm not going to continue posting here 'til the game begins; that'd be what old-me would do. Rather, I'll make an effort to use the QT more. So, uh, be back when the game begins.My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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So I've got reads on almost 80% of the playerlist.
Over 50% of them are generated primarily from two players.My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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Mod:Will likely be V/LA most of tomorrow. Big day. (Shame, since I've got a LOT of work to do.)My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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VOTE: Kublai Khan.
We're six-for-six with him being scum in games I play in. Let's go 7-for-7. (Fallacy? What fallacy, I see no fallacy!*)
*Yup.spectacularstart to being logical, Mastin.My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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Broken up post, for fear of 500 error.
PART ONE: INTRODUCTION:
So I'm going to attempt to explain my reads logically. This...probably will not go well. I'll do my best, though, since, well, I really want to push myself to be more logical, and play less irrationally.
(Given that I'm up against Khan Man--who I've never won a battle of the wits against--this actually will be more of a mental challenge than any other game could offer me. I can throw my weight around when needed. Heck, I might even be able to get him lynched despite having the objectively-weaker argument, because I'm quite charismatic when I need to be.
But I wouldn't have grown from it at all, as that's what I do in all of my games, getting people lynched by pushing hard and aggressively, rather than doing any real convincing with logical arguments. So I'll at least try to use logic, even though it's probably a losing battle. How else can I grow, other than by fighting against someone I'm hopelessly outclassed against? I certainly don't get better by pounding against someone who's worse than I am. Anyway, enough rambling. To the point...)My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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PART TWO: STRONGER TOWNREADS--
Town:
(Roughly ordered strongest to weakest.)
I have a super-secret tell that red tripped in one of his posts, which makes him (to me) almost confirmed town, as I canNOT see it being faked by him as scum, and it seemed quite legitimate. (Not the best start for me being logical, given as how I can't explain by showing you which post or why it's a towntell, as it wouldn't be a supersecretz towntell if I told you everything about it. )redFF:
His posts also are quite reminiscent of what I remember of his townplay, so that also helps things out.
I had a townread on all three of our last-to-confirm players before scooby had even posted, because of the interactions which had transpired already in-thread. This alone, however, wasn't what earned scooby his spot (as it amounted to little more than gut, even to me), however--what makes scooby a relatively strong townread is people's willingness to attack scooby, a sure sign that he actually is town.scooby:
In particular, Khan's passive attack against scooby here:
...Was quite discouraging to any thought of scooby-scum.Pine... You know better. There is scum motivation in avoiding posting content until you see where other players stand on issues. scooby is deserving of the pressure that The Mini-Librarian is trying to exert.
Much like scooby, this townread is less based off of what shotty has done, and more based off of what others have done. (It's the way that was recommended to read VIs in one of the threads I browsed in MD. So this was actually a piece of advice that I HAVE incorporated into my play.) The willingness of at least a quarter of our playerlist to lynch shotty (I haven't done an exact count on the number willing to lynch him, but I do believe it's a significant amount) strongly suggests that shotty is in fact not a scumlynch. (That, or he ticked off his buddies THAT badly in the scum QT already. )shotty:
Admittedly, I don't really know LLD's playstyle that well, despite having been in at least two games with her. (Probably more.) So I can't really say for certain that this is her townplay. But her posts definitely sent off a townvibe overall to me. That, combined with her interactions with Ninja and drmy (we'll get to those two later) among others make her a relatively strong townread.Lady Lambdadelta:
I'll admit, Nero's posts give off a bad vibe, but a few things do place him firmly in the town category. For starters, there's his willingness to antagonize a player. (In this case, HezLucky.) As scum, that just brings unnecessary attention to oneself, and potentially creates problems for them in the long-run.Nero Cain:
Furthermore, there's also the fact that multiple people seem to be expressing early suspicion in him. Yes, it's a tell which normally applies to VIs, but I think in his case, it applies as well. He's basically painting a target over his head, which reads "EASY PICKINGS". His play comes across as being weak enough to be attacked, but due to his veteran player status, has none of the fear scum'd have from attacking a VI like shotty.
To give specific examples of scum taking advantage of this, you need look no further than Khan:
(Which is a reverse of his original initial townread), and NihilisticNinja, whose ISO is half-devoted to Nero.Khan Man wrote:@Nero Cain -
You made the argumentum ad populum that drmyshottyizsik is a "well-known VI", then tried to shift the burden of prooving your own assertion onto NihilisticNinja who seems legitimately confused by your behavior. And so am I. If anyone is drawing out the argument and making it "tedious and a distraction" it's you. You are acting scummy and shifty for no concievable reason. I looked up and found a game with both you and drmyshottyizsik in 2 minutes, why can't you?
All of this combined makes Nero among my stronger townreads, despite my initial doubt of him.My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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PART THREE: WEAKER TOWNREADS--
Mostly based off of meta, I'll admit. Librarian and I just finished a game where we were scumbuddies. In it, both Uber and I were aggressive, and Librarian chose to be more conservative to create a contrast between us. (It worked; Librarian was a legitimate townread of mine along with most of the town until lylo where POE began to suggest him.) This game, he's appearing far less so, showing aggression.Librarian:
This doesn't necessarily make him town (if he has conservative scumbuddies, it'd make sense for him to not be conservative himself), but it's enough to have gotten him a townread at this stage in the game.
Another case of a supersecretz towntell I found for him. It's not that strong of one, but it's strong enough that based off of what I've seen of Junpei, he's got a spot on my townlist.Junpei:
Pine:Anothercase of a supersecretz towntell, but this being Pine, I can't really be certain of it. I've always had trouble reading Pine, to the point where he's normally got his own category of "PINE". As part of my effort to become the new me, however, I need to shake my bias towards him and think things through a little more objectively. I can't tell quite yet (given the early nature of the game), and most likely will need to look at his interactions closer along with the nature of his posts' tone, but he does kinda give off a townvibe overall, combined with the tell to make him--albeit weak--a townread of mine.
Mainly earned this spot due to Ninja, like vijay and Maxous below, but CCV's interactions with Ninja are stronger. (Of note, however, is that while CCV is the strongest town of the three if Ninja's town, he's also the strongest scum if Ninja's town.)Candy Corn Vampire:
I'll admit--vijay looks incredibly suspicious to me. Then why is he a townread? Purely for his interactions, in this case, with Ninja (and to some extent, drmy).vijay:
Like vijay, only more! Or, well, in this case, less. As in, less of a townread. His posts give me a bad vibe, but his interaction (Ninja, again) sorta suggests town.Maxous:
His interactions with Khan make him weakly leaning towards town. His unintentionally playing also added a slight towniness to my read on him, but I have to say, overall, he's probably my weakest townread. Well, of people having posted, that is.Benmage:
Like with scooby, they started off as gut townreads. They remain gut townreads.moaner and sorgster:
You'll note by this point that a LOT of my reads are based off of Khan and Ninja. (To some extent, drmy as well.) Which I myself lampshaded. Over 40% of the playerlist I have reads on come at least partially from around 8% of the total playerlist.
Now with that out of the way...
(Disclaimer: All further sections in here are either out-of-date or incomplete, but I figure I might as well post 'em.)My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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PART FOUR: NULL--
Null:
Can't read him, yet.jason:
I've seen Hez as town, and I've been linked to his play as scum, but I can't really say that I remember what his play was like. He kinda gives off townvibes, but I'm not sure, yet.HezLucky:
There's nothing to read. By POE, I'm strongly beginning to suspect at least two scum in them, though.Macross, Firestarter, and Praetyr:
rack's posts instantly gave off scummy vibes, for much the same reason that Ninja's did, which CCV said best:rack:
That was my thought, exactly. However, I also had the thought that, if rack were an alt, that it wouldn't be as bad. rack's a hydra, apparently, but the same thought process applies, giving me some doubt about my scumread on them.These questions don't really need answers and more amount to him trying to think of things to say rather that saying things he thinks needed to be said.
And now for the moment of truth...
(Note: Hez probably should be moved to town. Also, I'm not sure who Psyche is on the playerlist, but whoever it is needs to be not above null, since I haven't really liked Psyche's posts. rack *might* be moving to my scumlist, but I need to confirm a few things first. I'm kinda guessing Praetyre as town, and at least one of [if not both] Macross and--in particular--Firestarter to be scum, but I haven't read anything since day 1 officially started and I've mostly been skimming since, oh, page six or so, meaning said reads are in need of updating.)My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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PART FIVE: KHAN, SECTION ONE--
Scum:
People might think that my random vote (which I haven't actually made yet, as I'm typing this up while we're still in confirmation; it's just that I planned out said random vote the moment I signed up for the game) was just RVS joking. In a way, they're right, in that I intended to make that vote regardless of the circumstances of the game.Kublai Khan Man:
...But one might note that I'm not unvoting right now. And anyone paying attention to the above sections can figure out why--I have a legitimate scumread on Khan, and am about 90% sure on him being scum.
Much of it amounts to the same thing I have against Nihilistic Ninja, in that Khan appears to be trying to contribute helpfully...while not actually doing anything helpful. He's playing subtlely, taking a passive stance in this game, pushing things indirectly. Exactly as I would expect from him if he were scum.
He's being slightly withdrawn, and overall, his post structure is highly...well, structured. It's careful wording, an artificial construction meant to get people thinking he's town. And the sad thing is, it's worked perfectly, as the only person other than myself to have picked up on it was LLD, noting herself that something in his words seemed off, though she couldn't pin what it was, observing that by the words alone, he would look town.
But one of the things I instantly took from my research that I had begun to forget is that the ONE thing which has ALWAYS given me the edge over Khan is that I have an ability which I like to think of being unique, in that I DON'T look at just the literal wording, and I look beneath the surface.
(I'll try my hardest not to rely on it, though, since it's difficult for me to explain.) By pure logic, Khan is probably one of the strongest players on the site, in that he can carefully tailor his words to suit his needs--what he says appeals to people's senses, making them think that what he says, well, makes sense.
However, another piece of advice to take into mind is to look at the motive behind the words. Most players won't do this without flips (LLD seems to think it's a scumtell, even), but it's part of my signature style to observe interactions before flips.
In this case, with looking at Khan's posts--are his posts consistently pushing for a scum agenda, or for a town agenda? To me, he is distinctly the former.
But I can't rely on that alone to get others to lynch him, now, can I?
This is the first instance of Khan being cryptic. Instead of being blunt and to the point, Khan takes a roundabout way of answering things.Khan wrote:Was Jesus Jewish?
And this is an example of Khan saying something which is made to make himself look more town, by saying something which on the surface sounds kinda town...but when you think about it, is nothing more than fluff, which had no actual town motive to say. It furthers his scum agenda, of trying to make himself look town, because it looks like a legitimate question, but when you look at it again...is it? No, it's little more than fluff.I'm starting to wonder if there's a point to having an open thread confirmation stage. We have our role PMs, either dam the river or open the floodgates.
This quote is wrong in more ways than one, too. Khan's only once seen me as scum. When he himself was also scum. It's the infamous Emerald City game, which got him the title he now so proudly wears, in that he claimed miller. I pushed him, hunted him, tried everything I could do to lynch him, because (just as now) I had him pegged as scum. People didn't buy my logic (nothing new there), and I was lynched for (essentially) being seen as irrational.mastin2 could be town. Time will tell. I'm in no rush to lynch him. He'll slip up later if he's scum.
So he's never actually seen me "slip up" as scum. He's only seen my townplay. (As even in said scum game, I wasn't pushing a scum agenda in trying to get him lynched. Quite the opposite, I was trying to help the town out, as my faction was already at a disadvantage, so I wanted to send a "SCREW YOU" to them. It backfired, obviously, as the only reason the game wasn't a completely perfect Vermillion-scum win is because the Cerulean Scum nightkilled one of their members.)
But there's also the fact that he's taking the passive stance on me. I could be town, but he's not saying one way or another if he thinks I am or not. He's also leaving the door open to lynch me later-on, via the (wrong, as pointed out in great length above) statement about me slipping up later-on. It basically means Khan can try to lynch me at any point if my logic (which is already my weak point, mind you. >_M) begins to degrade, which he could then use as "proof" that I am "slipping", and am therefore scum.
(Then again, you can't really slip if you've already fallen off the slope... )My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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PART SIX: KHAN, SECTION TWO--
Note the later reversearound on Nero. But that aside, part of my suspicion on drmy comes from the fact that I'd expect Khan to put one of his buddies in the earlytown slot. It's not Nero, due to the way Khan had his reversal on him, leaving drmy and Maxous. Of which, Maxous is a weak townread due to his interactions. HezLucky is also on the list as well, technically, but is more likely town due to the "he's wrong, though" comment.Nero Cain, drmyshotgun, & Maxous are earlytown.
Speaking of which, that comment itself is further evidence of Khan saying something which sounds town, but really isn't--since Hez said he was going to tunnel on Nero, and Nero wanted Hez to tunnel on him, all things made abundantly clear early-on. Khan ignoring that and treating it as a legitimate early scumread (which people ignoring the context would see, thinking Khan was town for saying it) when anyone reading the context would understand that what Khan was saying wasn't town at all.
Again, this is him not taking a strong stance (CCV), and him attacking an easy target (vijay). Vijay's play has honestly degraded, to the point where he used to be a strong player, but now is seen widely as a VI, on some players' blacklists due to his antics. Khan sensed weakness, and immediately jumped onto it. For CCV, it was similar--CCV had posts which were weak enough to get a start on, but which Khan could Edited 04-11-2012 02:47 PMCandy Corn Vampire has some bad mojo going on. Not a fan of vijay2vasandani either.
always back out of if necessary.
...And that's as far as I got. I didn't get to finish on Khan (but there's of course more), I didn't get to cover anything by Ninja, nor have I gotten around to drmy. (Those three are my strongest scumreads, in the order Khan-Ninja-drmy, obviously.) Of note, however, I predicted 5-6 scum, hence my suspicion on Firestarter, Macross, and rack.
I'll see if I can finish it later, but this'll do for now.
(*Insert obligatory accusation that "Mastin is tunneling hardcore on Khan!" here*. )My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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I'm trying an experiment--I created a lengthy response to Junpei in my QT, but didn't post it; it was rambly and not that on-topic. (Have done similar things for other posts.) However, I'm curious to see if people don't mind once it's cut down. Let me know what you think.
Four, including the one I'm moderating--my self-imposed limit.Junpei wrote:God dammit Mastin, how many games are you in?
Conflicting interest--logic's hard to explain, causing rambling. Will attempt to fix.Mastin I can already tell that your massive walls could EASILY be trimmed down a ton.
I'm aware; I even said so in-thread. Doing my best, but it's difficult to make theory work in practice.You are not following ANY of your advice you make threads on; it's great that you KNOW what to do, but you are completely failing to APPLY that knowledge.
Bluntly? No. Never intentionally. Over my dead body. Accidentally, on the other hand... (Working on it.)Are you scum intentionally swamping the game?My academy.
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Hmm, probably'd get better feedback with this included. (Forgive lack of italics; did not convert html to bbc.)Spoiler: Original for referenceMy academy.
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Ohgod. Oh, god. Firestarter. really. is. scum. That post. just.so. IioA, bad reads, scummy tone...painfully
I need to go back to my QT to type out the details in more...coherence.
In the mean time...
I'm not going to ignore the rest of his post, but there's not much point in me responding to the rest of it without having thought things through, first. I *could* maybe get some supporters, but I wouldn't grow, and Khan'd massacre me more than he already is. So I need my QT for him as well. But for now,
If you were "randomnewuserguy", I'd have a scumread on you nonetheless. (It's not because it's you, Khan. I'd love the day where I see you as town [it is sadly not this day]. It's because I saw you post, exactly as I'd expect scum to, and interactions strongly support it. You're not scum because you're Khan; you're scum because you're scum.) But I could. Probably will.Khan wrote:One being his normal one where he considers me scum based on out-of-game statistics, and another one where he pretends my name is "randomnewuserguy" and reads the game in a more neutral fashion. I know it's more work, but could this be done?
(Yeah, need my QT. Rambling.)My academy.
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More coherent, now. To explain my stance more clearly:
Firestarter tripped dozens of scumtells in that post, and is now on my scumlist above drmy. Specifics later (need to type them up).
Khan's not scum due to confirmation bias spawned from our history. He's scum for the reasons previously listed--
He's playing as expected from a scum player; any similar player (e.g. Ironhead*, a logical player) would have an identical read. His posts, his interactions, and others' (in particular, my other scumspects) interactions with him. No different than reasons for finding any player to be scum.
Explanation will come, though his request will be honored, since the lists will be nearly identical,my read is not based off of biases, but on his and others' play. Listing ~6 players as scum, then removing one (i.e., Khan) won't change much, since said removed player played little part in the formation of other reads.because
*Probably not the best player example, but the first which came to mind.My academy.
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I kinda have the impression that if scum had daytalk, they've just posted a message similar to what Hiraki posted in 144, with regards to mcqueen.
That is, "Okay, Firestarter has to die. NOW."My academy.
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IPsyche wrote:I suppose I was a bit hyped up, but sheesh. None of this stuff is persuasive.didsay logic's not my strongsuit...
Then again, I don't think you will ever need convincing from me. (Hint, hint. ) So no harm done.My academy.
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Experience. Newb742, I won only due to my cop claim. NY 96, he massacred me. NY 132, I lynched myself to get him lynched. (Long story.) Stargate Mafia, he was a universal townread (including me), so had I thought him scum, I wouldn't have been able to convince anyone.Deas wrote:Mastin2: Why does your big post about Kublai convey the sense that you don't believe you'll be listened to?
What'd make this game any different? Especially given...
...You're not believing me, are you? Yeah, my belief that nobody will listen to me seems quite justified.Kublai Khan Eh. Mastin's reasoning doesn't do much for me. The "was Jesus Jewish?" and *talking about the game starting* points are ok, but the others are really pushing it and overall KK feels like town.
But now for a counter-question.
You give no reasoning on these reads. Would you mind fixing that?Mini-Librarian
Mastin2
Drmyshottyizsik
Candy Corn Vampire
LLD
Vijay
JasonT1981
Macros
Junpei
PraetyreMy academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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You know, I find it highly ironic that the guy who has a reputation for walling has to say: STOP. WALLING.
...At least, so inefficiently. You people keep on quoting most of the posts, rather than just the relevant sections.My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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Wouldn't have asked if I didn't want an answer. Yes, I want reasoning.Deas wrote:Mastin2: Are you just asking for the sake of asking, or do you actually want the reasoning?
As it stands, I've got a Khan-Ninja-Firestarter scumteam; drmy's been knocked off for obvious reasons. rackmightbe joining, but that'd still be only 4/6; I am about to reconsider a few things. Be back later.My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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Khan, you've basically lost your edge over me.
This just lost you any allies you had left. When I stop slacking off, I'll elaborate if needed, but I think everyone can see for themselves why this was a scumclaim from Khan.You know what? Nevermind. I'm just going to ignore you until you're dead. You're the second worst mafia player I've ever seen. Please confine yourself to the newbie queue from now on until you know what the fuck you're doing. (Hint: Don't roleclaim for no fucking reason).
[sarcasm]Yeah, I've totally got The Mini-Librarian's back in this game[/sarcasm]My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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Among others?
Shift in tone.
It's one of the few dead giveaways Khan has as scum. See 742, preclaim (smug) and postclaim (panicked) for just one example. Memory's a bit fuzzy, but I think NY 142 had a change in tone as well.
The mockery within is poorly disguised.
Basically, Khan puts up a good act--but when you introduce an element of chaos (like, say, drmy. Or me, when I was a VI; that mighta been the real reason I had an edge over him ), he can't react in a convincing manner. His act falls apart, since he doesn't know how to deal with the situation.
...Not the best description, but I think you get the idea. There's more to it, of course, and I'm forgetting another two or three points in regards to the shift in tone alone (not to mention the things not regarding tone), but it's enough to give you an idea for now.My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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Typo. Was 132; I even looked it up to make sure. Not on my laptop (you can kinda tell, as my laptop's where my QT is, so rambling's happening more when I'm not using it ), so keyboard's not what I'm used to.My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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This is not happening.
I can't believe this is happening.
I'm not doing this.
UNVOTE: Khan.
Quite frankly? I got a littlemuch support on the Khan wagon. I need to think things through.tooMy academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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There was CCV, DV (didn't vote, but expressed intention), rack, and then vijay. (I stopped reading immediately after that to unvote.)
I need a rethink.My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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(This is why it's a bad idea to wake up and go straight to a game--my head's not entirely here, as I'm typing this before breakfast. AKA, before coffee. )
rack's vote on Khan actually seemed town-motivated to me. Vijay's vote even moreso. I dunno why; just gut for now. (I'm regressing. Hence, need for a rethink.)
CCV's reasons came before Khan's flipout (and were in fact part of the reason for said flipout), and weren't influenced by me.
I dunno. I just don't know.My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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DeasVail:So I know *I* announced a change in playstyle, but I've noticed one from *you* as well. Why the change?My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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I'm going crazy. VOTE: Candy Corn Vampire. And all of a sudden, I got the strong urge to call Pine a CCV buddy, despite how heon my townlist.was
(AAAAAAAAAAAARG!!! >_< This was not what I wanted.)My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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rack's town. Of the 8 on there, I've got (current or old) 4 scumreads present, and only one strong townread. And that's just those officially on the wagon; others (like myself) have expressed at least interest. Combined, this sets off LOTS of warning bells.My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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HezLucky, jasonT1981, Junpei, Macross, Nero, Praetyre, and scooby:You're the only players I couldn't see a clear read on rack when doing a quick ISO of the playerlist. Could you give your read on them?My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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8 voters, 2 former-voters, 3 interested players, 13 to lynch.
Rack's been pseudolynched already, even without the above players' opinions. Look at the names involved.
[Benmage, The Mini-Librarian, drmyshotgun, Firestarter, Kublai Khan, Pine, Lady Lambdadelta, Candy Corn Vampire], {NihilisticNinja, Psyche}, (mastin2, Maxous, DV).
[Voting]{Voted}(Interested).
Tell me, LLD, does this look like a town-driven wagon to you?My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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Put another way, LLD--you gave a list of suspects. Three of them are on the wagon. (A fourth being rack.) So unless your scumreads on the three (myself, Pine, and CCV) are outdated, or you think that rack is being powerbussed, there's no way for rack to be scum.My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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My point exactly. I haven't, but I expressed interest.In post 452, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:Show me where you voted for Rack?
Because if you haven't (like I suspect) you're doing nothing more than cheerleading the wagon incase it goes through to a lynch.
Which, PS, is scummy if Rack flips scum.
Maxous hasn't, but he's expressed interest.
DV hasn't, but he's expressed potential interest.
Psyche and Ninja aren't on it, but were on it, and haven't (to my knowledge) actually changed their scumreads on rack.
The wagon on rack is not 8. It's 13, and it takes 13 to lynch. We pseudolynched rack, with the names I listed. [Benmage, The Mini-Librarian, drmyshotgun, Firestarter, Kublai Khan, Pine, Lady Lambdadelta, Candy Corn Vampire], {NihilisticNinja, Psyche}, (mastin2, Maxous, DV).
You have multiple scum/nullreads on the wagon. Myself included.
I have it moreso; on the wagon, I've only got four townreads, two of them weak; the rest are null or scum.
I ask again. Given these 13 players, does it look like it's a town-driven wagon?
It certainly doesn't to me.My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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I'll give you that, but not in the way you think--they're not equal; potential interest isimportant and valuable than actual voting is. Not (as you were probably implying) less.moreMy academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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Exactly. And at least one of your suspects having done this doesn't change how you view the wagon at all?In post 457, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:They are valuable. But they're not important.
What they are is cheerleading. Not wanting to be on the wagon, but appearing like they support it, when in reality they do not support it enough to vote it.
Like I said. rack's town. The pseudolynch on him looks horribad to me, and quite frankly, I can't seem to understand why from your perspective it doesn't at least look fishy.My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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*sigh*
Right now, feeling a little bit...lost. I'm a little busy right now dealing with more important things than playing, but I might be back later tonight.
Unvote, VOTE: Firestarter.
New-and-old, I've had scumreads on Khan, Firestarter, Pine, CCV, Ninja, and Psyche. 6/13. Null, I've got Maxous and DV. 2/13; total 8/13. Weak town I've got two, you and TML. Townread, I've got 1, LLD. Strong townread, I've got 1, drmy. Total of 4 townreads, out of 13, versus eight null or scumreads. Yeah.Benmage wrote:Whose glaringly scummy on it?
I don't. But I did. I was part of the pseudolynch. At the time the wagon was at its strongest, I was a supporter of it. Hence why I include myself. I no longer wish to lynch rack, as I firmly beleive them to be town.Nero wrote:Mastin, why do you want to join a wagon that you think is scum driven?My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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You are. You're my strongest townread, in fact.My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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Sure, why not.
Unvote, Vote: Pine.My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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Hey, Grey.
You town?
If so, tell me who needs death.
/feelslikesheeping.My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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I'll be honest with you all--in this game, I feel a little bit out of my league. I'm having difficulty getting reads, but not because of apathy (that'd imply I didn't care; I do, just have difficulty locking down reads, as they waver from town to scum and back). A lot of players here are of a different caliber than I am, be it better (like GreyICE) or worse (VIs), making it harder to relate. I'm not in my element, compared to other games where I do nicely.
It almost made me want to replace out--almost. The reason I haven't is that I realized that's exactly why I wanted to keep playing in this game in the first place: because if I'm never pushed outside my comfort zone, if I'm always in my element, then I'd stagnate and never grow. Only by being in a place where I'm WEAKER than most people would I stand a chance of actually getting better. By being in a place where I feel uncomfortable, weaker, and overall kinda useless, I can try to push myself.
I'm going to try and reset everyone to null, and see what happens when I take a look at the game again.My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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Grey, name a single game we've played together where my reads were even close to as good as yours were. I can't think of any; every time you and I are in the same game, I seem to suck compared to you.
For instance. Shotty has been a townread of mine. I'll take another look, though.My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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For what it's worth, I've started a comprehensive post containing 24 sections (one for each player and "other stuff", like VCA and miscellaneous comments in my QT) which I've been working on trying to complete. (Yes, most of it'll be spoilered. ) Showing original reads, old reads (if different), gut-reads (current-right-at-this-very-moment, if different), and current reads (future-after-I've-done-my-work-reads, if different). I've gone through all the original and some of the old reads content that's in my QT, but haven't covered in-thread reads, yet (though they're mostly the same), yet alone, having started the reread.
Basically, the idea's to show how I got my reads, explain why they morphed, and then give an update based off of all the new content.
I'd prefer nobody speedlynch rack until I finish, since contrary to appearances, I sometimesgive valuable insight into a game, insight which can on occasion earn me the fear (and nightkill) of the scum.doMy academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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Also for the record, Pine's particular method of pushing on rack SCREAMS scumposting, with rack as town by proxy, as it doesn't scream scum-bussing. Call it a "gut-right-now" read. But if memory serves, that's where my vote is.
Have to admit I've been slacking off a little bit over the weekend (I'm a little busy for the next few weekends*), though that'll have to change.
*Speaking of which,Mod: V/LA the first Friday of May and lasting 'til Monday. Pacific Northwest Square Dance Festival and all. (What?It's the state dance! ) Generally leaves me with little-to-no internet access. (That said, it's actually in my state this time, so no traveling to Canada, at least.)My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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Funnily enough, before I realized you were a hydra, I was thinking you were an alt of Nobody Special. It just felt like it fit.rack wrote:Head A, however, (that's me) is none other than Nobody Special.My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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Moments like these are what make me remember Antihero replaced CCV and that I had a CCV-Pine scumteam in my head.My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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Also, following traditional scumtells, Pine's avoidance of the rack wagon despite pushing it hardcore generally is a sign that the wagon's already scumtastic. Which probably means 3-4 scum on it.My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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rack (11)- Benmage, The Mini-Librarian,Firestarter, Kublai Khan, Lady Lambdadelta, drmyshotgun,Maxous, GreyICE,Antihero, Nero Cain,FakeGod
Bolded-->Major interest, italics-->minor interest. (Keep in mind Pine's also a former-and-honorary member of this wagon, Ninja's a former member, Psyche's a former member, and DV showed interest, so they're also under the microscope.*)
*Arg, nine people is three too many. I need to stop slacking off and get stronger reads.My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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There won't be a tomorrow, LLD; the bastards just lynched rack by my count.
Now KK's response was scumtastic, and so was this sudden rush of votes. It's possible that it's a single scumteam, but I was actually rushing home since I realized while driving "crud, this is probably multiscum". I'll see what I can do before the day ends.My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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First off, why I suddenly think this game is multiscum.
-24-player games with a single scumteam are incredibly rare. The last time I remember being in one, in fact, was Mortal Kombat, which was meant to LOOK like two scumteams. So, number of players in the game.
-Related, ideal balance suggests a single scumteam would be six players. However, when was the last time you saw a six-man scumteam? I quite frankly don't think I've seen one in a long time. And even then, probably a theme. (Again, might be Mortal Kombat. Or maybe Stars Aligned. Games that old.) Six scum is almost universally the realm of multiscum.
-The even number of players suggests a certain kind of symmetry to be present. 24 works out better than 25 or 23 for two scumteams.
-The town seems to be quick to bandwagon, as shown by the rack lynch when we have nearly two weeks 'til deadline. rack's not the only wagon to have gotten a lot of support, either.
-The way everyone seems to be behaving seems...different...to me. Like it's somehow off. That things aren't the way they should be if this game were single-faction.
-Related, my inability to scumhunt effectively. That itself might not seem much to you, but as Khan said, most of my scumhunting works by interactions: and if the scum are legitimately scumhunting, it makes it incredibly difficult for me to catch them, basically making any time I DO catch one a lucky shot in the dark.
It's not enough to have me firmly convinced, but it's enough that the possibility came to mind, and it does change how I go about the game. I'll double-check things after posting this, though.My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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rack (13)- Benmage, The Mini-Librarian, Firestarter, Kublai Khan, Lady Lambdadelta, drmyshotgun, Maxous, GreyICE,Antihero, Nero Cain, FakeGod, Junpei, Pine, Antihero
Yeah, this is the official lynch. Add in Ninja's slot, Psyche's slot, and DV as former/former/potential members of the wagon, you get a grand total of 16 players here.
Now once more, Khan's reaction was super-scummy, and Junpei's jump on while accusing me was also super-scummy. He knew that by voting rack, he was at risk of ending the day, and yet he wanted more content from me, someone he suspected, he wants to push me yet votes rack, he wants me to be scum, yet he pushed rack instead...
Antihero's switch off looks like a quick attempt at towncred; his hammer looks horribad. Pine's place on the wagon is even worse. This makes me think Antihero, Pine, Khan, and Junpei are all good picks for scum, with probably two more off the wagon.My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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Pine (3) - scooby, vijay2vasandani, mastin2
Macros(3) - Pine, rack, DeasVail
Firestarter (2) - Code_X, redFF
Benmage (2) - HezLucky, Macros
Nero Cain (1)- drmyshottyizsik
redFF (1) - Junpei
Not Voting (1)- Psyche
These are the names off the wagon at the last votecount. Pine's joined the wagon since then, as has Junpei. CodeX was a former member of the wagon, via predecessor Ninja. Psyche's slot was also a former member of the wagon. DV had shown interest. I'm inclined to think at least one of these three are scum, but probably not two of them. (I'm not *that* good of a scumhunter, and the rack wagon isn't *that* scumdriven. )
That leaves {shotty, Hez, Macross, redFF, vijay, scooby} as containing one scum.
I have no clue who it'd be. And if the game IS multiscum, I have no clue what the teams would be at this point.My academy.
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That said, I'm kinda thinking that if Antihero were scum, that it might be single-faction, since if it were multiscum, unvoting then hammer-voting with such a flimsy excuse would be suicide, as redFF's natural reaction shows.
(Speaking of which, he's confirmed town, so can be crossed off from the list.)
If I had to guess who the sixth scum would be out of the names left...well, Hez wouldn't be my best bet, Macross wouldn't be scum with Antihero or Pine (though KK or Junpei might be possible), as mentioned not redFF, leaving the most likely as {shotty, vijay, scooby}. Of those three, I'm not sure. I HAD a townread on shotty via him being attacked, but in multiscum, that just means that his buddies aren't attacking him. (Will have to check who did attack him.) I had a townread on vijay ONLY due to my scumread on Ninja (which has faded), again useless if multiscum. I kinda sorta think he's town, though. I also had a townread on scooby via KK's attack on him, but will need to look at things again.My academy.
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And again, a reminder that the lynch went through despite my specific request not to, as I needed time to work on the post.
Of course, since I began thinking it was multiscum, I'd need to modify it, to account for both possibilities--what the scumteams would be if multiscum, and what the scumteam would be if not multiscum. But still, the post wasn't even close to complete, and now I won't get the chance to. I'm flying by pure instinct right now, basically, by speedreading and giving first thoughts on things. I don't have time to use the quicktopic, as if I do, the thread might be locked by the time I'm finished.My academy.
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I'll take my best shot at things.
1. Psyche <--Minor suspect, but gut right now says town.
2. Kublai Khan <--Major, MAJOR suspect; his reaction reeks of knowing rack was town.
3. scooby <--Probably town; look at his refusal to get on rack and pushing of Pine.
4. FakeGod jasonT1981 <--Probably town, by virtue of there being no way the rack wagon is THAT scumdriven.
5. Firestarter <--Probably town, by the same logic above.
6. The Mini-Librarian <--Same thing.
7. rack <--Confirmed town.
8. DeasVail <--Major suspect, especially with regards to consistently looking like he was on the edge of voting rack, but never following through.
9. Macros <--Not scum with the people attacking him, which if memory serves include Pine and Antihero. Oh, and DV as well. Still could be scum in a KK-Junpei scumteam, though.
10. Code_X NihilisticNinja <--Minor suspect due to Ninja's play.
11. Benmage <--Probably town via the rack wagon not being THAT scumdriven.
12. Pine <--Scum. I'm not sure if I'll be able to get enough on why before we go into night, but I'll try.
13. drmyshottyizsik <--Minor suspect. He's in the suspect pool with vijay and scooby, but I still need to check who was willing to wagon him.
14. HezLucky <--Probably town; just overall gut feeling.
15. drmyshotgun <--Town via claim, and via being on the rack wagon.
16. Nero Cain <--Town via interactions, and being on the rack wagon.
17. redFF <--Confirmed town.
18. Antihero Candy Corn Vampire <--Scum, especially if this game's single-faction. Words kinda escaping me, but I'll do what I can.
20. Lady Lambdadelta <--Town via the rack wagon.
21. Junpei <--Scum. See also, his push against me while voting rack and putting rack within lynch range, despite my request against doing so and his interest in me providing more content. (That last one's the biggy.)
22. Maxous <--Probably town due to the rack wagon, though he's of minor interest still.
23. vijay2vasandani <--Minor suspect, in the pool with scooby and shotty. Gut seems to recall liking something he's been saying recently, so maybe town.
24. GreyICE Praetyre <--Town due to the rack wagon.
Of course this is far from a complete list of reasons, but it gives a good start.My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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Boiled down:
1. Psyche <--Minor suspect, but gut right now says town.
2. Kublai Khan <--Major, MAJOR suspect; his reaction reeks of knowing rack was town.
8. DeasVail <--Major suspect, especially with regards to consistently looking like he was on the edge of voting rack, but never following through.
9. Macros <--Only possible scum in a KK-Junpei scumteam.
10. Code_X NihilisticNinja <--Minor suspect due to Ninja's play.
12. Pine <--Scum. I'm not sure if I'll be able to get enough on why before we go into night, but I'll try.
13. drmyshottyizsik <--Minor suspect. He's in the suspect pool with vijay, but I still need to check who was willing to wagon him.
18. Antihero Candy Corn Vampire <--Scum, especially if this game's single-faction. Words kinda escaping me, but I'll do what I can.
21. Junpei <--Scum. See also, his push against me while voting rack and putting rack within lynch range, despite my request against doing so and his interest in me providing more content. (That last one's the biggy.)
23. vijay2vasandani <--Minor suspect, in the pool with scooby and shotty. Gut seems to recall liking something he's been saying recently, so maybe town.
Ten potential names. Khan, Junpei, Antihero, and Pine are figures of major suspicion. I'll see if I can eliminate a few of the minor suspects.My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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If the game is multiscum, by the way, Pine and Khan look like they're probably not scum together.My academy.
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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Same applies to Antihero; see KK's early read on CCV. In multiscum, it's a bad idea to start attacking a buddy immediately--even worse to then back off of 'em.
Single-scumteam, however, would still leave open KK-Antihero. Not sure on KK-Pine whether it'd be possible for both to be scum on a single large scumteam.My academy.
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Agnigi, 13p Mini Theme sequel to Gistou, is in design and could use reviewers!-
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mastin2 The Second Coming
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