NY 151: Playground Mafia (Game Over-Mafia Win!)

DLG · Post Post #2385 (isolation #0) » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:19 pm

Howdy, all.

Finishing catching up, made it through to about page 70.

Were there any claims, or anything of significance between then and now? I'll finish the catch-up on my own, just curious for any more information with which to process the remainder.

Based on where I've made it to, I'm in support of the Benmage wagon. Want to finish reading, though, before actually joining in. To the point I'm at, my scum read is based on a complete lack of pro-active town effort on Benmage's part.

Other candidates include Psyche, Scooby (who has not yet been replaced by where I'm at), and FakeGod. All for basically the same reason as Benmage.

I'll have to reprocess the earlier portions in light of Nero Cain's flip and Lady Lambdadelta's flip.

Who might Nero Cain have blocked from killing and who was fighting hard to keep Lady Lambdadelta alive? To the latter, I'm really interested in The Mini-Libriarian's fake cop claim thing which now looks very funky. Is there anything else I don't know regarding this?

@ The Mini-Librarian
So, what was the deal? At the time where I'm at in catching up, I believed in the joke explanation. It made even more sense given that I was viewing Lady Lambdadelta as fairly Town, myself. Now, it looks a hell of a lot more like a subtle defense of Lady Lambadelta and an attempt to maybe trap an unwary Cop into a counter-claim, or invite an investigation you knew would result in an innocent result.

DLG · Post Post #2396 (isolation #1) » Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:57 am

In post 2386, Psyche wrote:Also, guys, this means Junpei's replacement is very likely town.

Yeah, uh-huh, are you trying to be Benmage, here? Remember his whole "whaddya think about Rack?" thing?

Are you looking to get some of the credit bestowed on him for "not knowing" who was lynched?

VOTE: Psyche

Everything about your impact on this game is screaming at me that you are consciously attempting to get away with as much as you possibly can. It's like you are sitting at your keyboard thumbing your nose and sticking out your tongue at everyone else. Not acceptable. Time to die.

Made it to page 83. Almost caught up completely.

I recognize the suspicion towards DeasVail, but his play seems markedly different than the one game I played with him where he was scum, Open 349. There, he had a much flashier impact on the game. It's possible this change is not related to an alignment change, but for now I'm reading him as more likely Town.

HezLucky wrote:Now that you've pointed it out this ABSOLUTELY looks like a bus.

I don't get your line of thinking, here. Why would Benmage bus Lady Lambdadelta in this fashion? She was in a pretty solid positoin, as far as I can tell.

I don't see that StrangerCoug is saying that, at all. It looks more like StrangerCoug is accusing Benmage of voting for Fallman7, knowing all the time that it would be a mislynch.

What am I missing?

DLG · Post Post #2398 (isolation #2) » Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:42 am

In post 2397, DeasVail wrote:DLG: I feel that your scumreads are a bit lazy, as in you're going after people who aren't contributing as much, and I don't agree that it's a great place to find scum.

Not lazy.

I will flesh these out further, but at this point, it appears that there is a strong propensity for my suspects to lay back and do nothing to alter the self-destructive course Town has taken, then pop in and help complete the mislynches.

I have the same feelings towards redFF as I do towards you from 349. His play here is markedly different, to my eyes. Much more invested in really figuring out scum and far less interested in "showing off". His play there reminds me of Psyche's play here.

Do you, DeasVail, think that's a valid comparison?

How about you, redFF?

I feel really strong about Psyche being scum. Why don't you two help me lynch him? Scum lynches are fun.

DLG · Post Post #2401 (isolation #3) » Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:06 am

In post 2399, Psyche wrote:Amusing how easily someone can project motives onto behavior. I've been called lazy, but this?

"Amusing" is scum talk. It is not a denial of the accusation, it is an attempt to minimize through condescension.

It's your behavior that is scummy. My guess at your motives could be wrong, but that doesn't change the base fact that you got a scum role PM.

In post 2400, Psyche wrote:Wait. How often have I popped in to complete mislynches? I've done my best to prevent my uninformed vote from ruining the game. >.>

Well, 1 out of 3, for sure. You completely bounced around between Pine/Seacore, The Mini-Librarian, and Junpei at the end of Day 2. Just floating whichever way the wind was blowing.

Again, the last line is scum speak. Scum play to not lose. It's safer and fits the survivalist mentality needed to be succesful. Town play to have their best scum reads lynched.

Scum admissions. Please lynch!

DLG · Post Post #2405 (isolation #4) » Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:54 am

In post 2403, Psyche wrote:Tunnel vision ftw.

No I am not scum. I'm overwhelmed. This game is A LOT and it's really difficult for me to pay attention, let alone catch up.

"Amusing" is not scumtalk. Why would scum feel a need to not deny an accusation? That Freudian crap is bull.

My behavior is not scummy. You're misreading. You're reaching.

Why would scum choose to float around? Is that really survivalist?

I'll shed big crocodile tears for you, Mr. AtE.

Scum don't want to engage directly, if they aren't forced to. Instead, pandering to the onlookers by describing the attack as "amusing" is good scum strategy. Afterall, my one vote won't lynch you. If you can keep everyone else off you, though, you win.

Floating to whichever wagon had the most impetus, when you're assured the target is not part of your faction? You truly can't see why scum would do that?

The survivalist accusation was separate from that. Don't try to conflate the two, it's scummy argumentation technique. Survivalism, as embodied by your play, is represented by your assertion that you're just trying to not ruin the game; i.e., playing to not lose.

In post 2402, HezLucky wrote:
look at Benmage's post in response to LLD's vote on Junpei

I agree that the quote in question looks damning. I haven't quite gotten there, yet, though, and want to read it in full context before rendering a verdict.

I think the power-bus theory would be sub-optimal play, and wanted to make sure you weren't just jumping aboard that wagon with a weak justification. Your response to me indicates you are truly invested in lynching Benmage and that reads positive to me.

DLG · Post Post #2412 (isolation #5) » Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:12 am

StrangerCoug wrote:Why did you vote someone you claimed, and we all now know, was town?

Benmage wrote:He was obviously town. Dur.

That's not an answer to the question. Best I can get is that you thought it was a good idea to lynch someone you read as Town to implicate another player.

Please immerse me in the Benmage pool of wisdom that explains how that is Town play.

Psyche wrote:How am I supposed to explain why you're wrong without saying things you can snidely label AtE ...

Try not saying, "woe is me", and explain how you're helping town win through your actions.

Psyche wrote:I do not see how a behavior that is so obviously inactive can be considered a viable scum strategy. I'm pretty sure every scum reading this thinks it important that he or she continues to seem like a proactive member of the town.

So, your plan is to demonstrate your Townieness through a lack of appearing to be a proactive member of the town?

You are pretty active when it comes to defending yourself when someone puts a little pressure on.

If you're Town, who's scum? If you can reply promptly when your survival is endangered, you can surely spare a little time to help me out of my misguided tunnel.

DLG · Post Post #2417 (isolation #6) » Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:54 pm

DLG wrote:You are pretty active when it comes to defending yourself when someone puts a little pressure on.

If you're Town, who's scum? If you can reply promptly when your survival is endangered, you can surely spare a little time to help me out of my misguided tunnel.

Psyche wrote:97 pages. I'm sorry, but I don't have the time.

andrew94 wrote:psyche should replace out. (and u guys shouldnt lynch him for being useless)

Not for being useless. For being an active detriment to Town winning. That is the best reason I can think of to lynch anyone.

andrew94 wrote:fire guy is just scummy when i was reading.

Yeah, how so?

andrew94 wrote:The cop stunt makes me think mini librarian is town. why the hell would scum do that? lady wasnt even under pressure

You think it was a "stunt", which implies to me that you consider it not a real claim. Why the hell would town do that?

Also, see here, at the bottom for why scum would do that.

I thought you wanted a claim from The Mini-Librarian before commenting further on this situation. What changed?

andrew94 wrote:benmage is town. lady wasnt even under much pressue. why would he bus. if he was scum, he should be bussed already

Good regurgitation of my point, sans the Benmage is Town conclusion. There was never a serious push against Benmage which would require his buddies to bus him. Kind of like with what you're saying as regards Benmage not needing to bus Lady Lambdadelta.

Given Benmage's promises of being able to 180 his play, a power bus of a scum partner would have been incredibly powerful if he could pull it off. And, under the climate where Benmage's post was made, a 1 v 1 of Benmage versus Lady Lambdadelta would likely have ended in a Benamge lynch. What would the conclusion be regarding Lady Lambdadelta should Benmage flip sum in that hypothetical?

This is pretty much what HezLucky had to say when I asked him about it, and it's an explanation that resonates with my view of things.

Maybe you can explain how it was townie of Benmage to play to kill a town "read" to get to Lady Lambdadelta the following day.

andrew94 wrote:i believe maxwell was getting semi bussed by lady

In what way? Why?

You, andrew94, look like you are running interference for both Benmage and Psyche. Please explain how I'm misunderstanding your play.

DLG · Post Post #2419 (isolation #7) » Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:12 pm

StrangerCoug wrote:That's true, but HezLucky is acting on my mention that the person Benmage wanted to lynch after Fallman7 was lynched is dead scum.

Yeah, I see that. Especially after he explained it.

I'd love to have multiple votes. Count me as an honorary member of the Benamge wagon. I'd also love to see Psyche hang, and think that's a fine place for my vote.

I got completely read through, and, in context, the Benmage post looks even worse, if possible.

What about you as regards Psyche? Good lynch?

I want some kind of reply from The Mini-Librarian.

Preview edit:
I'm not calling for a claim from The Mini-Librarian. I just want to know his explanation for the coincidence.

DLG · Post Post #2427 (isolation #8) » Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:39 am

@ Benmage

So what? Self-meta is scummy. Providing a single example of behavior once done as Town does not mean that replication of that behavior equates to you being Town, now.

How low of an opinion of the rest of the players do you have to expect that to fly?

I don't understand your Maxwell case, Benmage. Could you elucidate?

How about helping me lynch Psyche?

@ Mod:
I'll be V/LA until Sunday evening/Monday morning.

I may have a chance to post again before I leave this evening, but may not.

DLG · Post Post #2432 (isolation #9) » Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:50 am

In post 2429, Benmage wrote:And seeing as I am the only one to catch scum and you want to lynch me for it, I have a reallllllly low opinion of you.

That's misleading as all fucking hell.

You weren't the only one to suspect Lady Lambdadelta.

I'd gladly see you swinging from a rope, but not for having a good suspicion on Lady Lambdadelta.

For this kind of misrepresentation.

For something you said way early in the game.

Benmage wrote:I feel this is more or less pretty standard Benmagetown.

For insisting that something you've done as Town can't be scummy in this game.

You're highly focused on "proving" your play, here, is the same as your Town play in the past. I find it extremely scummy that it's something you're doing deliberately, not happening naturally.

For something else you said earlier.

Benmage wrote:I pulled an old draft list to try and grasp some of this game. Had him under slightscum

This after you forgot about the Rack lynch (which is derptastic). Problem is, you were as rabid a supporter of the Rack lynch as anyone. Claiming him slight scum after the fact is scummy deflection of responsibility.

For reading Lady Lambdadelta Town all game, with one unexplained exception where you kind of guess her to be scum,

Benmage wrote:20. Lady Lambdadelta ---WTF is LLD.... so unlike LLD.. I'd need to iso, but Ima say scum.

don't otherwise mention her again, then act like she was such a strong scum read that you'd justify lynching a strong, obvtown read to implicate her.

So, the action in itself is a null-tell because you've done it as Town. In the context of

this

game, that action is scummy as scummy gets.

UNVOTE: Psyche
VOTE: Benmage

Psyche dies next Day phase. I abhor unvoting scum, but to nail another one, I'll do it.

DLG · Post Post #2527 (isolation #10) » Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:12 pm

Read and consider Post 2432.

Read and consider Benmage's lack of response in Post 2433.

2433 is from scum unable to address the major issues in the case against them.

andrew94 wrote:dlg get off the benmage wagon and vote the above.

Why should you being the vig impact my read of Benmage?

Alright, been doing some thinking regarding the 4 major wagons from Day 1 through Day 3. The following lists are the unknown alignment players from each major wagon. I listed them in alphabetical order of the player currently in the slot.

Rack - Lynched Day 1
Benmage, FakeGod, Maxous, OhGodMyLife, StrangerCoug, The Mini-Librarian

Seacore - Lynched Day 2
andrew94, DeasVail, FakeGod, Maxous, Psyche, redFF, The Mini-Librarian

Fallman7 - was Junpei (major other option on Day 2), Lynched Day 3
Benmage, Code_X, HezLucky, OhGodMyLife, StrangerCoug

Fallman7 - Lynched Day 3
Benmage, Code_X, DeasVail, HezLucky, Maxous, OhGodMyLife, redFF, StrangerCoug

The Rack Day 1 lynch had 6 known Townies and 1 known scum. I do not believe Lady Lambdadelta was the only scum on that mislynch. So, there must be at least one more scum in the 6 unknowns. My guess is 2 scum in those 6 players.

The Seaccore lynch had 4 known Townies, 0 known scum, and 7 unknown. I do not believe this was an entirely Town wagon, and think probably 2 or 3 scum in those 7 players.

The Fallman7 Day 2 wagon had 2 known Townies, 1 known scum, and 5 unknown. The only unknown player slot whose vote was not on either of these wagons is maxwell. Now, at that time, drmyshottyizsik was in the slot, so maxwell can't provide any reason for being the only player off of what turned out to be two wagons on Townies. I do not believe Lady Lambdadelta was the only scum on Junpei (Fallman7) at the end of Day 2. My gut says 1 or 2 scum in that 5 player group.

The Fallman7 Day 3 lynch had 1 known Townie, 1 known scum, and 8 unknowns (of which, all five from Day 2 were part of the Day 3 lynch). That makes for 1 or 2 scum from those 5, and maybe 1 scum in the other 3 - DeasVail, Maxous, redFF.

This is getting too long to be easily referenced in the future. I'm gonna break here, and give conclusions from the above in a couple of other posts.

DLG · Post Post #2528 (isolation #11) » Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:58 pm

So, here's my guesses from each wagon.

Rack - Benmage and FakeGod
See my Benmage case referenced at the top of #2527. I haven't looked completely at FakeGod, but gut and PoE are ringing scum alarms.

Maxous - not a complete read on my part, but I got no scum vibes from any of his posts contrary to my feelings regarding FakeGod.
OhGodMyLife - I think the early Firestarter case of IIoA on his catch-up post was trash. He gave some information in the form of notes on posts of interest to him, but gave analysis for his reads. Also, see here. What possible motive would scum have to point out the possibility that this Day could be Mylo for Town? Scum have a better grasp on the numbers, right now, and gain nothing from alerting Town to a possible danger.
StrangerCoug - No bad vibes, for me, on reading him, and I particularly liked his stubborn stance re: The Mini-Librarian and the breadcrumb/denial issue.
The Mini-Librarian - I had a decent town feeling on him, albeit the coincidence of Lady Lambdadelta flipping Godfather gave me pause. I accept his claim.

Seacore - FakeGod and Psyche, potentially DeasVail or redFF
See above for FakeGod and my first several posts for reasons for Psyche. Reagrding DeasVail and redFF, I'm unsure. Initially, I had both as Town reads, but think if there's a 3rd scum on this wagon, it is between these two from PoE.

andrew94 - I'm terribly uncomfortable with this slot, but will accept his vig claim and remove him from my scum list.

Fallman7 Day 2 - Benmage
See above.

Code_X - I can easily see his frustration and annoyance over the lack of contribution as coming from Town. I also like him wanting to know other's opinions on his recent input. That looks like town wanting to contribute and evaluate their reads in comparison to everyone else. I'll check that out and reply.
HezLucky - For the most part, I've felt my reads and feelings were similar to his, and I haven't had many, if any, moments of scratching my head on reading his posts. I need to re-read him to shift off null, and that bothers me on a gut level.

Fallman7 Day 3 - Benmage, and maybe DeasVail or redFF, and/or HezLucky.
See above.

So, my top scumspects are Benmage and Psyche. This is practically a dead heat in my mind, and I want a lynch/vig combination on these two. Preferably a lynch on Benmage and a vig on Psyche. Psyche has been so pitifully useless that I don't know what conclusions could be drawn from a wagon on him.

Next is FakeGod. I'll re-read and try to develop something more than above on him. Right now, though, I'd list him an easy 3rd place.

Below these three are DeasVail, redFF, and HezLucky. I would not support a lynch of any of these at this moment, but they are less Town to me than anyone else.

Everyone else ranges from leaning Town to solidly Town. Although, I just realized that the maxwell slot wasn't on any of these four wagons, and I'm not sure what that means. It seems almost too good to be true, but I don't know and need to scrutinize why.

DLG · Post Post #2560 (isolation #12) » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:01 am

andrew94 wrote:vote ohgod today.

So, convince me. So far, what I've got is

andrew94 wrote:firestarter guy pretty scummy

and
[quote=""andrew94"]ohgodmylife - the person he replaced.[/quote]
Color me unimpressed.

You either missed, or ignored, my initial request for this information. Please do not, now. If I'm wrong, let me know how.

Also, please address my point here regarding OhGodMyLife.

DLG wrote:OhGodMyLife - I think the early Firestarter case of IIoA on his catch-up post was trash. He gave some information in the form of notes on posts of interest to him, but gave analysis for his reads. Also, see here. What possible motive would scum have to point out the possibility that this Day could be Mylo for Town? Scum have a better grasp on the numbers, right now, and gain nothing from alerting Town to a possible danger.

Also, can you explain why you think any protective roles should preferentially target you over The Mini-Librarian?

DLG · Post Post #2567 (isolation #13) » Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:20 am

Benmage wrote:@DLG I appreciate the analysis, it something to keep doing. Color coordinating the flipped townies and flipped scum can help make it quicker on the eyes.

However the raw data must be weighed with play. If you think this is how a scum pushes through a mislynch, you are dearly mistaken:

Advice noted, without rancor. I agree the formatting could have been better.

In terms of play, how does a scum trying to push through a mislynch differ from a Townie trying to push through a mislynch? I mean, you

were

trying to push the Fallman7 lynch through, weren't you?

Could you please address my case against you, here?

Your lack of direct response to this is reinforcing my scum read on you.

Note that I understand the progression issue, and your defense of the strategy of being willing to lynch a Townie. I do not think it applies in this case due to the points in that case above.

@ Code_X
As a working hypothesis, I kind of agree with your theory regarding how Lady Lambdadelta approached things regarding not heavily bussing. I think some more scum flips will help flesh it out better.

Can you explain how you arrived at the conclusion that Firestarter/OhGodMyLife is scum from this, though? I just don't get it, and want someone to illuminate me if I'm wrong.

I don't support the OhGodMyLife lynch. I do still favor a Benmage lynch. Or, Psyche. I'm going to try to figure out maxwell, next. I'll support a FakeGod lynch, but it's not my top preference.

There's far too many players who are not involved in the current discussions, and that is pissing me off, for what that's worth. This seems like an opportune time for scum to duck out of the limelight. DeasVail, redFF, FakeGod, Psyche, OhGodMyLife, etc. I suppose they are not all scum, but who the fuck knows?

DLG · Post Post #2568 (isolation #14) » Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:21 am

In post 2561, DeasVail wrote:I do not support a FakeGod wagon, but I am not completely against it either.

Oh, look! I found the

Fencesitter

.

Is that traditionally a scum role or a Town role?

DLG · Post Post #2570 (isolation #15) » Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:56 am

In post 2421, andrew94 wrote:Hezlucky- slipped. he is prob the Sk.

Can you explain the slip he made?

DLG · Post Post #2571 (isolation #16) » Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:32 am

In post 2569, Code_X wrote:Regards Firestarter/OGML. It's more her interaction/comments in relation to Firestarter. Very little was said between OGML and LLD. I need to re-read OGML and Firestarter.
Defends him 387
Slight poke at him in 450 - doesn't feel genuine suspicion.
Null read on him in 502
Again casts suspicion but never really attacks him in 1216

I also think the fact Anti was on to some of the scum, got him killed. Post 493 in particular.

I'm also quite leery of RedFF about this as he was adamant Anti was a vig kill and unlikely to be a scum kill. 1403. Considering Vijay was the other kill. He seems to be diverting things there.

So, it's the little bit of waffling (potential distancing) with respect to Firestarter/OhGodMyLife? That could be, and is a point Benmage just made recently. Seems reasonable that scum would dance around reads on partners to keep doors open.

Are you incorporating the Antihero reads as part of your stance on this slot?

I don't know that I'm on board with the idea that Antihero died because of his reads, necessarily. The thing is, I'd think it would be his late Day 1 reads that would make him a target. By then, he had avowed scum reads on Pine and Junpei. Post 796 and Post 879.

Those were the next two lynches in a row, and having Antihero around to support them seems like a better strategy. This wouldn't clear FakeGod in anyway, though, due to Antihero having him at/near the top of his scum reads.

Unless it is redFF that did the killing of Antihero because of Post 901. I can see that as a Serial Killer shot taken by redFF and then him trying to push it off as a vig shot. Could be he was setting the stage for a vig fakeclaim with all that. A serious possibility I need to think about more.

If andrew94 is telling the truth, Scooby took no shots as vig Night 1 or Night 2. That tracks with the two kills those nights versus three kills on Night 3. That would leave vijay2vasandani as the scum kill for Night 1. Need to really scrutinize his late Day 1 scum suspects.

Why/how did you drop suspicion of Benmage? Would you support a Psyche lynch? I think there's more agianst him than OhGodMyLife at this point.

DLG · Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:22 pm

In post 2585, DeasVail wrote:
In post 2568, DLG wrote:
In post 2561, DeasVail wrote:I do not support a FakeGod wagon, but I am not completely against it either.

Oh, look! I found the
Fencesitter
.

Is that traditionally a scum role or a Town role?

Traditionally scum, but I only ever draw it as town.

Alright, you win the best comeback to snark award. This made me chuckle.

Now, could you help find scum?

andrew94's gut is not good enough to convince me. And, I think an information lynch is not a good play at this point. What is gained if he flips Town?

OhGodMyLife is a Town read, for me. I won't join that wagon.

I'll go with the FakeGod wagon if the Benmage wagon completely dissolves. I really think he's our best lynch for today, though. Could someone give me a quick Benmage!Town rundown. He's failing to convince me himself.

If my reads are so screwed up regarding Benmage and OhGodMyLife, I'd appreciate being shown how/why.

DLG · Tue Jun 12, 2012 11:45 pm

In post 2587, DeasVail wrote:Why do you think OGML is town?

I don't think I've made any secret about this. I'll indulge you, but I expect some scumhunting in return.

DLG wrote:Rack - Benmage and FakeGod
See my Benmage case referenced at the top of #2527. I haven't looked completely at FakeGod, but gut and PoE are ringing scum alarms.

Maxous - not a complete read on my part, but I got no scum vibes from any of his posts contrary to my feelings regarding FakeGod.

OhGodMyLife - I think the early Firestarter case of IIoA on his catch-up post was trash. He gave some information in the form of notes on posts of interest to him, but gave analysis for his reads. Also, see here. What possible motive would scum have to point out the possibility that this Day could be Mylo for Town? Scum have a better grasp on the numbers, right now, and gain nothing from alerting Town to a possible danger.

StrangerCoug - No bad vibes, for me, on reading him, and I particularly liked his stubborn stance re: The Mini-Librarian and the breadcrumb/denial issue.
The Mini-Librarian - I had a decent town feeling on him, albeit the coincidence of Lady Lambdadelta flipping Godfather gave me pause. I accept his claim.

Now, could anyone make that post as andrew94 said? Sure, but it makes absolutely no sense for scum to do so.

Couple that with the fact that I think all his stances have been clear and lucid. I haven't had any feeling of deceitfulness or manipulation. All together, it's enough to make me want to stay off this wagon on him.

Well, that, and the fact that there's this huge rally of "VOTE THE POSSIBLE SCUM PR, RAWR, RAWR!!!". Nothing about this situation feels right, to me. I mean, what the hell is all this based on? No one involved seems to be able to elucidate, just revert back to, "DOOOOOOOOOOOOOO IT!!!!".

If someone could explain this to me, I'd shut the hell up and fall meekly in line.

Your turn, DeasVail. Who's scum?

DLG · Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:49 am

In post 2600, andrew94 wrote:@DLG i have already pointed out that anyone can post that.
i have seen scum say 'yo hes at L1, unvote so no quickhammer'
etc etc. scum dont just act from a book called 'scummy actions'.

Im the one that basically said 'do it!!!!'

Yep, you are, and I'm completely aware of it. It's a piss poor reason to join the wagon, regardless of accepting your vig claim.

I'm not disputing wheter it

can

be posted by scum. I'm saying it makes fundamentally no sense for scum to post that at that time.

I have a huge problem with posts and events being debated with no regard for the context they were made in.

"Benamge is sooooo Townie 'cuz he forgot Rack was lynched, duh!"
Well, that's all cool - except he pushed the damn Rack wagon from pregame until completion. And was wrong. Does anyone as Town truly forget something like that?

Worse still, on Day 2 he tried to minimize his own involvement in the Rack lynch. That's scummy. It's not Townie, no matter how you slice it.

So, fuck that "towntell" bullshit. Look at the damn context.

DeasVail wrote:I honestly don't see a good reason to consider Benmage scum. It seems to have stemmed from the whole LLD thing, which is a towntell if anything because he had no way of knowing either he or LLD would die anytime soon, so it just seems really necessary. Why not wagon LLD in opposition to Fallman instead? That would make much more sense for scum as in most people's eyes it would be a much more town move.

Oh, the bassackwards thinking causes me heartburn.

Look at his vote on Fallman7. It was the 6th damn vote on a wagon that needed

ten votes

to lynch. It was 5 days before deadline. You bet it would've looked more Townie to try to get a counterwagon going on Lady Lambdadelta. You know why? Because it would have

been

a Townier play.

He didn't sieze any opportunity to make Lady Lambdadelta look bad. He siezed an opportunity to rally up a mislynch.

It's also a complete contradiction of his posted reads on these two slots. He was voting Junpei end of Day 2. It's fairly clear he had changed from a Town read on that slot to a scum read. Then, Day 3, there's nothing to indicate a change of heart. But, suddenly, he's rock solid sure that Fallman7 is Town. I call bullshit. I call scum, playing to a scum wincon.

The defense of this is "Look, look, I do this as Town, I sacrifice Town reads to get my scum reads lynched." Great, in isolation, the single action is null, then. But, in context, it's pure scum.

Now, when he can keep the debate to a theory argument, he's all over it. See him and StrangerCoug. But, when I point out the particular situation, here, he just throws in the towel. That's because it's not defensible in this instance. In this context.

It's also a fundamental clue to how cognizant Benmage is of his Town meta. How conscious he is of playing to that meta. He's forcing the issue, it isn't happening due to getting a Town role PM.

So, I'd really, really, truly, unconditionally love to see Benamge lynched. He's going to flip scum, and we could really use a scum lynch.

DLG · Wed Jun 13, 2012 10:52 am

Ha, didn't see your posts on Preview Edit, HezLucky. Fuckin A, right on, man.

It was a great start to this Day, with the wagon on Benmage. It's ridiculous it fell apart.

DLG · Post Post #2620 (isolation #21) » Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:57 pm

In post 2609, Benmage wrote:I CANT WAIT FOR ENDGAME FOR MANY LAUGHS.

I've shown this to be my town game, and refuted any shitty point of yours... but you are so dumb and blind. Whats the latest? I'd be hard to lynch as scum (well actually damn near impossible(zomg scum mocking you trying to lynch them? Unfortunately even my balls aint that big. Every scum plays nice(r))).

I ..... don't doubt it. There's still time to turn the tables on you, though, I hope.

I don't think this is your town game, at all. I think this is your scum-playing-to-your-town-meta game. I think there's a difference, and I think you let it slip way early when you showed you were evaluating your own play.

Why won't you answer my case? Is it just that I'm stupid and wrong about you?

Benmage isn't gonna get lynched today, is he? Well, I hope you all are reading things better than I am. This extends to OhGodMyLife, too.

If flips show I'm wrong, I'll probably sheep you the rest of the game, andrew94.

UNVOTE: Benmage
VOTE: FakeGod

I've been re-reading HezLucky. I can kind of see the SK case against him, but didn't redFF say a similar kind of thing, earlier? At the start of Day 2? And, where has he gotten off to?

andrew94, you're gonna shoot whoever you want to, of course, but please give some thought to Psyche and redFF. I don't think there's any chance to get either one lynched, but they both feel and read like scum.

DLG · Post Post #2622 (isolation #22) » Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:17 pm

@ Benmage
I've reiterated it a couple of times, but the best is probably 2432.

Also, see 2605.

Fair enough that you want to dismiss them as pointless. It obviously makes me think you're scummier.

I will say this much. I respect your play. As such, I expect a congratulations post game for seeing through you. Oh, and I'll own up to my massive misread should that be the case. Deal?

DLG · Post Post #2624 (isolation #23) » Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:48 pm

Do you like Charlie Daniel's Band?

"I'll take that bet, you're gonna regret, I'm the best there's ever been."

A simple one liner about how I caught you in this one at the start of our next game together.

DLG · Post Post #2664 (isolation #24) » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:38 am

Glad this is back on track.

Where were we, Benmage? Oh, yeah, at the point where I say, "You could've fooled me."

@ FakeGod
What's the purpose of your question to DeasVail in 2660? This looks like you just want to make a post that looks like contribution at first glance. I see no actual scumhunting potential out of your question. That's scummy of you.

I see you voted Benmage at the start of this Day (when his wagon was the cool place to be). Are you happy with your vote, still? Has anything changed with respect to your view of Benmage?

Please either point me to a succinct list of suspects from your point of view, or provide one. It may exist, but I don't have time to check your ISO at the moment.

DLG · Post Post #2671 (isolation #25) » Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:06 pm

@ FakeGod
Do you think that there is any indication of alignment to be found with respect to DeasVail and him posing that point?

What about the rest of my questions?

DLG · Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:47 am

Haven't had time to fully get back in the groove of this game.

I think FakeGaod is dodging my questions, but will flesh that out later.

DLG · Post Post #2737 (isolation #27) » Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:23 pm

@ redFF
Please explain this.

We have a claimed Cop. The evidence is that scum probably a) didn't think The Mini-Librarian's little mock claim was real, or b) chose to go Doc hunting with their shot(s) rather than waste them on a probable protection target.

Under these conditions, why would you think it's wise to reveal yourself and make it probable that the claimed Cop can only get one more investigation? I mean, you don't even want to lynch that slot (VisMajor).

I am dumbfounded. I literally cannot fathom the thinking that prompted you to do this.

Oh, by the way, what did you think regarding The Mini-Librarian's breadcrumb post? Did it factor into your read on Lady Lambadelta?

@ RachMarie
I'm not ignoring your request. Limited time and all. I'll give you (and everyone else) all I've got across this weekend. And, while I appreciate your desire to have my thoughts, don't let it prevent you from developing your own. Not that I think you would, but etc.

DLG · Post Post #2744 (isolation #28) » Sat Jun 23, 2012 3:39 am

In post 2743, redFF wrote:@DLG i claimed because i caught vismaior in a lie and I don't wanna lynch him today I want to control his shot. Town has too much power atm and a strongman is way more likely to be scum than town but we can make him shoot who we want until he doesn't then lynch him.

Alright. This may be a case of me thinking that I'd have played it differently, therefore you

must

be scum. Not really a good basis to pursue you on, and any resultant squabble would just serve to confuse things when it seems that town is finally developing some cohesion.

I can get behind the idea of VisMajor as SK and directing his shots.

RachMarie wrote:Could someone or someones summarize the case on the two wagons a bit more?

Here's my take on the OhGodMyLife wagon and the FakeGod wagon.

The case against OhGodMyLife seems to revolve around him having replaced into the slot originally occupied by Firestarter. I think the original case aginst this slot was faulty. See 2527 and 2528 for more information regarding how I've read this slot. I don't mean to send you on a chase the links trail, but there's a little too much information to just summarize.

Another thing that's bothering me is that I really feel like this OhGodMyLife wagon started up as a counter wagon to the strong Benmage wagon at the strat of Day 4. Putting this together with my Benmage scum read, I conclude that OhGodMyLife isn't very likely to be scum.

And, this OhGodMyLife has to be a scum PR line of attack was first espoused by andrew94, I think. This is the slot now occupied by VisMajor. Given the recent events surrounding that slot, I have no wish to be associated with anything directed by andrew94.

The FakeGod wagon is the far superior choice, in my opinion. Again, check out the links above for more information on how I arrived at this conclusion regarding this slot. Plus, see the recent exchanges between him and me. He is not scumhunting. He's dodging questions. This is a scum slot.

@ FakeGod
Answer the question with regard to how your question to DeasVail was intended to help determine his alignment. So far, all you've said is

FakeGod wrote:People are yelling at me because I didn't post very much, but I see DV telling someone that he is town and he shouldn't post.

I didn't know what to make of it.

Your short list of suspects? Where is it? Could you maybe use scum/town as adjectives instead of vague literary references that are only open to debate?

Benmage is not getting lynched today. Don't ask me why. Now, could you give some commentary on recent events and use your vote to help out instead of just idling it on the wagon which was most popular at one time? Or, help revive the Benmage wagon if you truly prefer that?

Yeah, nothing has really changed my views. Benmage is still scum. Psyche is still scum. FakeGod is still scum. I don't see OhGodMyLife as scum. There's some underlying things brewing that will only be clarified with more flips.

DLG · Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:47 am

So, there were 3 players not on either the FakeGod or OhGodMyLife wagons at the end of Day 4.

FakeGod voting Benmage. FakeGod was part of the early Day 4 quick push on Benmage. Given that FakeGod avoided voting who he knew was his scum buddy PR, and his all Day stance on Benmage, I really don't believe he was bussing Benmage. This means that Benmage is probably only scum if this is a 2 scum team set-up as opposed to 1 scum team and Serial Killer.

This takes Benmage out of the lynch pool for this Day. If future information shows a second scum team, I will probably renew this suspicion.

DeasVail was voting maxwell. This deserves quite a bit of attention given the JOAT flip. I will need to really read DeasVail to see if he gave good indication why he voted maxwell. Against this is the fact that maxwell was early on the FakeGod wagon. Bussing is a possibility, but it seems unlikely - meh, I dunno.

Again, 2 scum teams would make this make more sense. However, I am currently more interested than not in a maxwell lynch.

And last, Psyche not voting. For the 3rd time out of 4 Days, at the end of the Day, Psyche was not voting. It makes sense that scum!Psyche would not be on either of the FakeGod or OhGodMyLife wagons. And, the one end of Day where Psyche was voting was the end of Day 2 when it was 2 Town wagons opposing each other.

Along with my early Day 4 interaction with Psyche, I absolutely want to see this lynch happen.

VOTE: Psyche

StrangerCoug wrote:The reason I'm more reluctant to vote OhGodMyLife right now is because 1.) my vote on him was to test a theory by a player who since replaced out and of whom some people now suspect of being a serial killer and 2.) I don't buy OhGodMyLife and maxwell as both scum the way HezLucky's been going after him.

That's the last thing you said regarding OhGodMyLife on Day 4.

StrangerCoug wrote:I still think lynching HezLucky is the correct answer for refusing to justify how maxwell was bussing OhGodMyLife. Yes, OGML flipped scum. That was what I thought at the time.

I'm confused by what looks like pretty unconvincing revisionist history on your part. Can you explain?

DLG · Post Post #2859 (isolation #30) » Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:49 pm

In post 2853, Maxous wrote:Any particular reason you don't think he is a SK?
Did I miss it earlier?

You didn't miss it, in that I don't think I posted it.

The thing that gets me off that idea is the vote Fallman7 to implicate Lady Lambdadelta hijinks. As Serial Killer, Benmage could be doing Daytime scum hunting and Night killing. But, it seems incredibly dangerous to make an enemy of a scum read in that fashion. I'd think as Serial Killer he'd want to avoid that kind of attention grabbing play. To me, that means either Town or scum of opposite team, not Serial Killer.

Oh, Benmage, I've traded off my scum read on you temporarily, but are you serious about asking what you've avoided when I'm in the mix? I don't want those oft-promised and not delivered responses at this time. It would only serve to create excessive noise, in my opinion. But, gee whiz.

@ Benmage
Please explain your insistence on Town!Psyche. He's far and away my top scum read, currently. Help me see where I'm wrong.

@ Maxous
Why the insistence on investigation immune Serial Killer? How about bullet-proof? Given everything else that's been revealed, I think that is a far more likely scenario if there's a Serial Killer.

DLG · Post Post #2864 (isolation #31) » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:30 pm

Update to 2527 and 2528.

rack Day 1 lynch - 6 known town, 3 known scum, 4 unknown alignment - {Benmage, RachMarie, Maxous, StrangerCoug}

Spoiler: End of Day 1 analysis

@ Code_X

To the best of your recollection, why did you unvote on replacing in?

Of the 5 unknowns off the rack lynch, my strongest suspects are Psyche and maxwell. Lesser, but still some suspicion to HezLucky and Code_X. See Day 2 and Day 3 analyses for more on HezLucky and Code_X.

Seacore Day 2 lynch - 6 known Town, 1 known scum, 4 unknown alignment players - {Maxous, RachMarie, redFF, Psyche}
Junpei end of Day 2 wagon - 2 known Town, 2 known scum, 4 unknown alignment players - {HezLucky, Code_X, StrangerCoug, Benmage}

Spoiler: End of Day 2 analysis

Day 2 suspects are Psyche and maxwell, with, again, suspicion left over for HezLucky and Code_X. This is becoming a theme.

Fallman7 (Junpei) Day 3 lynch - 2 known Town, 2 known scum, 6 unknown alignment players - {redFF, HezLucky, StrangerCoug, Benmage, Code_X, Maxous}

Spoiler: End of Day 3 analysis

No surprises, the evidence implicates Psyche and maxwell, with suspicion for HezLucky and Code_X.

FakeGod end of Day 4 lynch - 1 known town (me), 1 known scum, 6 unknown alignment players {Maxous, maxwell, Code_X, RachMarie, Benmage, StrangerCoug}

Spoiler: End of Day 4 analysis

Best take on the Day 4 information is Psyche as scum. He needs to be killed, now. I just cannot see him as Town.

The information above is only spoilered to save space. I don't think it should be ignored, obviously.

The summation is that Psyche is scum and needs to hang, immediately. Everyone should be voting him, now. In particular, see the Day 2 analysis section.

After Psyche, my next most probable suspect is maxwell.

Below them, maybe HezLucky and/or Code_X. These are mostly supported as POE based on the information contained above.

LYNCH PSYCHE! LYNCH PSYCHE! LYNCH PSYCHE!

DLG · Post Post #2868 (isolation #32) » Fri Jun 29, 2012 3:39 pm

In post 2863, Maxous wrote:Oh, I'm assuming the SK is bulletproof. Wondering if people think he could also be investigative immune also.

I remembered a large normal game in which Mastin('s hydra) was both as a SK.

Ah, I see. At this point, it wouldn't surprise me a whole bunch, I guess.

What do you think of the chance of a two scum team set-up instead of a single scum team and Serial Killer set-up?

Really, I'd like everyone's take on this. What makes Serial Killer more likely than another scum team?

@ Benmage
No, I don't think you're Serial Killer. That response was to Maxous on why I did not think you were Serial Killer. Am I wrong?

DLG · Post Post #2901 (isolation #33) » Sat Jun 30, 2012 4:49 pm

In post 2885, Code_X wrote:DLG I purely unvoted because I hadn't read the thread. Something I always do when replacing in is unvote, read then vote, alas day ended before I read.

Fair enough. Makes sense.

My concern was with how NihilisticNinja - now you - had played. From pre-game on through, NihilisticNinja was hard core defending Lady Lambdadelta. Then, NihilisticNinja voted rack. This vote stayed until Firestarter - OhGodMyLife - came in and voted rack.

NihilisticNinja wrote:Also, firestarter's post is awful. Almost all of it is IIoA that desperately tries to look like content, and the rest is base reads that are contradicted by the vote.

Also, redFF- I'd be willing to join a counterwagon. Who do you think it should be on?

NihilisticNinja was the third player to jump on Firestarter for his post. Then, NihilisticNinja actually placed the first Firestarter vote. This speaks to your slot as town, but it could have been distancing.

My question to you revolved around why take your vote off the Firestarter slot, or rather if that was part of your unvote.

Eh, nothing to that, I guess. However, the Lady Lambdadelta connection to your slot remains a big concern. I recognize you can't speak to why NihilisticNinja did that, but the burden remains.

@ RachMarie

Being Cop does not absolve you of being involved. You're out, and you have Doc protection for another night. No excuses for lying low. Who's scum? Why?

@ Benmage

I see the point about StrangerCoug derailing the OhGodMyLife wagon. Joining the wagon, then derailing when it gets to critical mass is decent scum strategy.

As for the rest, I'm not impressed.

What happened to your desire to lynch maxwell? Still interested?

Benmage wrote:Post like this:

In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=4155659]post 2871[/url], Psyche wrote:That it was so long ago is what makes it okay to laugh at it.

Here's what's been happening to me this game:
I joined it because I was looking for a fast mafia fix.
But found it to be far more active than what I was used to. And on top of that, I found that this and the assortment of players in the game was making the whole thing a chore.
And then when school concerns took over, the thread grew enormously and I struggled to grasp the motivation and passion to read and analyze such an overwhelming load.
I asked to replace out, and almost made it out, but a missent PM by Peregrine and guilt over the whole thing had me running back.
But I still couldn't get over that readthrough hump, and school was only getting more hectic.
Once school was over, I was in a Game with more pages than I had ever been asked to handle before. And I still lacked willpower.
So I just whittled my time away and ignored the game, feeling guilty but trapped every moment of it...And here we are.

I've ruined myself. I've set myself up for failure.
But now I'll try to make up for it, at least a little.
Or maybe I'll just give up, overdue-like. Eh.

Benmage's case on me is him trying to frame that which is a whole lot of nothing. I don't see I can be accused of anything except of absolutely nothing.

DONT COME FROM SCUM. Because than the person would be the biggest douchebag ever. And noone wants to actually be a douchebag. This is just a defeated townie. This isn't lying scum.

What his tactic was to tactically lurk? And than play this apathetic card? No... he's a sad pathetic, undeserving player.... but this lynch is atrocious.

This could as easily be defeated scum.

All the AtE is vomit inducing. The litany of, "Gonna provide something fellas, jus' gimme a li'l bit longer"

is

tactical lurking. And, really, what other card could he play? The best chance he's got is to blame off his lack of contribution as apathy. It's something virtually everyone can empathize with. Psyche is quite capable of deliberately offering this kind of defense as scum.

Psyche wrote:
Benmage's
DLG's
case on me is him trying to frame that which is a whole lot of nothing. I don't see I can be accused of anything except of absolutely nothing.

Well, as an exercise in conciseness, that sums it all up pretty well. You've done absolutely nothing, and that makes it more difficult for Town to win. Ergo, you are scum. Oh, and don't forget, you weren't nearly so apathetic when I pressured you at the start of Day 4.

If you were just guiltily whittling away your time in this game, where'd the self-defense motivation come from?

I see another in a long string of promises that have yet to be fulfilled. Get your reads on the record so we have them after your scum flip.

Rejoice, for you will soon be released from the interminable trial that is this game.

Psyche wrote:By the way, there's no way in hell I'm self-voting after reading through 116 pages

WTF?

Who even suggested you would?

That looks like a message to scumbuddies.

DLG · Post Post #2908 (isolation #34) » Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:27 am

In post 2904, Psyche wrote:But seriously. You think the scumteam's bigger than 4 people? I'm not used to such a high number. How many do you think are in this game, besides an SK? I need to know this stuff.

I don't know, but I do know that an initial 18 v 3 v 3 distribution doesn't seem out of the question. It would also explain some things I just can't reconcile, like my scum read on Benmage despite very good evidence that he is almost assuredly not part of the "Mafia" team.

I guess I just don't know why Serial killer is the only option being considered. Obviously, another Mafia flip, or a SK flip, would settle this pretty definitively.

In post 2906, maxwell wrote:Re-reading some things. Waiting to see what Psyche has to say before I vote. Sorry for being prod-dodgish I just don't want to say too much at this point in time.

Ummmm, yeah, o.k., this is like you striving to jump ahead of Psyche on the "lynch me" scale.

Hey, Psyche, I'd totally sheep you on a maxwell wagon.

DLG · Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:55 pm

@ Benmage and Psyche

Do either of you really think that the Seacore Day 2 lynch was 10 Town plus 1 scum?

And, for the record, I haven't posted this as a question beofre now. But, my thougts about this are on the record and you both have flat-out, patently ignored it. Just in case you are tempted to claim you didn't read it before, go read it right now. Post 2864, under the End of Day 2 analysis spoiler.

And, Benmage, don't fucking ignore me on this. You're not the only one scum-hunting. You are the only one glory-hogging, though. I've made it perfectly clear that I can only see you as scum if there is another scum team. So, quit trying to treat me as if I don't exist in this game.

Really, anybody answer this question.

DLG · Post Post #2944 (isolation #36) » Sun Jul 01, 2012 2:12 pm

In post 2851, StrangerCoug wrote:
In post 2846, DLG wrote:
StrangerCoug wrote:The reason I'm more reluctant to vote OhGodMyLife right now is because 1.) my vote on him was to test a theory by a player who since replaced out and of whom some people now suspect of being a serial killer and 2.) I don't buy OhGodMyLife and maxwell as both scum the way HezLucky's been going after him.

That's the last thing you said regarding OhGodMyLife on Day 4.

StrangerCoug wrote:I still think lynching HezLucky is the correct answer for refusing to justify how maxwell was bussing OhGodMyLife. Yes, OGML flipped scum. That was what I thought at the time.

I'm confused by what looks like pretty unconvincing revisionist history on your part. Can you explain?

It was a relatively weak scum read, but a scum read nonetheless.

Alright, I'd like further clarification on this, StrangerCoug.

See, I expected an answer to my question more along the lines of, "I was just saying what I thought prior to the flip." Because, you

were

saying that prior to the flip. Instead, this idea that you really did have a mild scum read on OhGodMyLife seems out of place.

And, it would only make sense for you to push OhGodMyLife harder at that point. Because, the only way HezLucky could be guilty of anything is if he knew -pre-flip - that OhGodMyLife was scum. Unless you thought HezLucky was pushing two mislynches at the same time. In which case, you patently did not think OhGodMyLife was scum (even mildly).

In post 2940, StrangerCoug wrote:
I am done with what is effectively OMGUS and his crappy case on me. At least maxwell has a three-digit IQ and is voting me for reasons that I can get to make sense (I believe he is referring to my 180 on him, and I still hold that it makes no sense for both HezLucky and maxwell to be scum).

That's a ridiculous claim. OMGUS? That's just patently untrue.

So, if both HezLucky and maxwell are not scum (I agree with this, by the way), could it be that HezLucky just had really good "busdar"?

If not, then why aren't you pushing for a HezLucky lynch based on the fact that he would have had to have known OhGodMyLife was going to flip scum?

StrangerCoug wrote:As for the other part, I refuse to give you details about what I think is the setup. My 5:1:18 theory is based on the fact that mods shoot for 25%-33% of the game being scum, the Mafia has no specific name, and there were three deaths on nights 3 and 4. That is all the town needs to know of my opinion.

So, 18:5:1 is your theory. That would put us at 7:2:1, right now.

Why were you willing to flat sheep me on Psyche

StrangerCoug wrote:When you asked the question, it hadn't changed from the end of yesterday: HezLucky, then you. DLG's pushing really hard for a Psyche lynch in #2864, and I'm buying.

[/quote]
when he was at best your third highest scum read? I mean, under your theory of distribution, we only have one mislynch to give (worst case), right?

DLG · Post Post #2947 (isolation #37) » Sun Jul 01, 2012 3:19 pm

In post 2942, Maxous wrote:@DLG: Dunno but it's possible.
I have mislynched town before because I beleived "no way could X wagon be all town" when it was

O.K., sure it's possible. I just think it's highly unlikely. In combination with other points against Psyche, I still highly favor his lynch.

Now, if it was 10 and 1 on Seacore, then that makes for a minimum of 2 scum in the group of {HezLucky, Code_X, StrangerCoug, Benmage}. That's assuming only 6 scum in the game (including a Serial Killer). More scum in the game means more in that group.

There were two known members of the Mafia team on the other wagon. That much is known. Seems highly unlikely that all four remaining members of the Mafia team would be on the Junpei wagon. Especially since that wagon was the lynch the next Day, with no variance in who was on it out of this group.

So, if an SK is in the game, most likely he is within the group of 4 above. Then, one more Mafia team member and maxwell as a member of the Mafia faction.

Keep in mind, though, that all is only true if the Seacore wagon was 10 Town and 1 scum.

Effectively, by PoE, I think there are minimum 3 scum within the group of {Psyche, maxwell, Code_X, StrangerCoug, HezLucky}. I only think one of HezLucky/StrangerCoug is likely. That makes for 2 out of {Psyche, maxwell, Code_X}.

Of course, this is all subject to change pending future flips, but that's where I'm at, right now.

I'd really like to see a Psyche lynch on this Day.

If anything is not clear, above, I'll expand on it.

Pedit: Will read over your post and respond tomorrow, StrangerCoug. I'm out for the night.

DLG · Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:25 am

Alright, there's no need to rush this.

A couple of people evidently still have things to say, including me.

Will get to that later today, I hope.

For now, I'm just going to register an objection that Psyche and Benmage are suddenly being annointed as the de facto Town saviors. I can accept that Benamge is trying to accomplish a Town wincon. There's no way I can accept that about Psyche. And, this easy acceptance of him as Town because he perked up and did a little analysis when he should have been lynched is just flat out lazy.

It's like all a scum has to do is do nothing, make sure they avoid having a vote out at the end of a Day, fight their own lynch when pressured, then post some words, then presto, they are annointed Town fer suuuure, dude.

DLG · Post Post #2987 (isolation #39) » Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:29 am

@ StrangerCoug in response to # 2945.

Explain how it is out of place.

What I think is out of place with you claiming a mild scum read on OhGodMyLife is that I don't see where you expressed that sentiment prior to his flip. Claiming that stance after the fact seems disingenuous and kind of distancing from that scum PR slot.

Then give your opinion about why Benmage is complaining that he is not my top town read.

I don't care for Benmage's portrayal of himself. But, I do think he has a point that game events have shown him to be highly likely Town, and your refusal to acknowledge that is disturbing. I do not see where he is being scummy by pointing this out.

My other problem is that you are dismissing the case against you as OMGUS, when there is content driven suspicion. Your play around the OhGodMyLife wagon and FakeGod wagon was worth suspicion. That was the crux of the case, in my opinion, and was definitively not OMGUS.

Your wording's off, but I understand what you mean, and I am currently closed to the possibility that HezLucky had a good "busdar" as he refused to back himself up. I would be much more willing to accept it with maxwell flipped scum.

I understand your point, and accept your reason for this stance.

Because I cannot get any support for it.
a HezLucky wagon

My point is that you haven't really driven for any support. What I find suspect about this is that you have a reasonable point. But, you seem content with being able to point to that reason, and not really interested in pushing hard for a HezLucky lynch.

Like you, I reject the idea that the Seacore lynch was made up of ten town and one scum.

Alright, then. Point accepted.

Let me do this in my head... 7:2:1, town gets lynched, two more townies die (since the vig is dead), putting us at 4:2:1... Sounds about right.

Agreement, here, as a worst case scenario.

Thing is, those were not two separate points. I was asking why, given the second point, would you accept a lower tier scum read to push on. Doing that points to the possibility of lynch hunting, not scum hunting.

DLG · Post Post #2988 (isolation #40) » Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:53 am

Benmage wrote:DLG, do me a favor. Draw for me a scenario of full flips, where SC isn't scum.

Ayuh, will do.

Benmage wrote:BTW you can put Hezz into the town slot... unless you think 3 scum all voted next to one another. (Fun fact, find out how often that *never* happens).

Yeah, I'm willing to accept that as a working proposition. It seems as likely to be true as my conjecture regarding the Seacore lynch.

So, if StrangerCoug is also Town, here's what I'd envision.

In a 18:5:1 set-up: maxwell - SK, Psyche and Code_X as remaining Mafia, with Psyche as Rolecop. I figure that scum has to have a Rolecop, and Psyche's lay low, avoid attention profile fits a scum PR. There's not much difference in Psyche and maxwell as far as that goes, but I guess I'd like my preferred lynch target to be as high profile as possible.

In a 17:6:1 set-up (maybe not as likely, but still possible): Probably same as above, with the addition of redFF as scum Doc. I'd only venture into this territory if all three of maxwell, Psyche, and Code_X were flipped as scum, and the game was not over.

In a 18:3:3 set-up (yeah, yeah, not according to you, but...): I could see you, Psyche, maxwell as the remaining scum team. Probably one of you as Rolecop. The Town PR death toll is too high for there not to be a Rolecop involved. Especially the DeasVail slot as JOAT killed over a claimed Doctor with a claimed Cop still alive. The only explanaition I can conceive is that scum knew about the JOAT role, and were willing to take out a Town PR and create the WIFOM around a non-redFF death.

Now, I'm not entirely ready to say that StrangerCoug is Town. There are some things, as outlined in my respopnse to him, that concern me. And, accepting you as Town, I'm willing to pay heed to your reads. You've been pretty damn good at calling them so far this game.

Psyche is still my absolute preferred lynch, though. I'll bullet a case against him, for reference.

DLG · Post Post #2990 (isolation #41) » Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:03 am

And, yet, once again, you are amazingly quick to note that someone might be suspecting you and putting you in danger. Probably just a coincidence, though, huh?

DLG · Post Post #3020 (isolation #42) » Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:27 am

Maxous wrote:btw is this 'another scum on the seacore wagon' referring to another mafia only or another scum inclusive of a SK?

My first thought was/is another member of the Mafia. Could also contain SK, though, as well. This is only a tool to separate and distinguish places scum could be. I'm looking at major probabilities with this. It just seems so unlikely that only one member of the Mafia was involved in a mislynch. Still, more flips coming, more information to narrow down the pool of possibilities.

To that end, I think the Day 2 and Day 4 lynches are the most telling. Day 2 was two Town wagons competing. Day 4 was two Mafia wagons competing.

There's only so many places for scum votes to be. And, PoE should work well.

redFF wrote:the LOTR thing likely means nothing and is a waste of time.

rach with sc's self hammer, both benmage and hezz are very town.

Add you, myself, and DLG to this and we have a strong group of town players.

Maxous, Code_X, psyche and maxwell should all die in that order

I pretty much agree with all this. I'd love to be right, though, so I'd put Psyche as a higher priority death.

I don't have time for a complete bullet case on Psyche. It can all be found in my posts regarding him. Biggest thing is that he was voting end of Day 2, and not end of Day 4. Given the nature of those Days, the coincidence is too remarkable, in my opinion.

@ RachMarie
Just make this investigation count. Psyche or maxwell, in my opinion. An innocent result doesn't make them not the SK, but does remove them from the Mafia pool.

I agree with Benmage that hunting the SK will be better after the Mafia is eliminated. I suppose it's too much to hope that they just kill each other tonight, huh?

DLG · Post Post #3021 (isolation #43) » Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:47 am

Oh, yeah.

@ Benmage
One sheepage owed. Unless, of course, you turn out to be the SK (are you

that

good?), just to save me some dignity. In that case, call it a wash?

Important question. Assuming one more member of the Mafia team, was that player already on StangerCoug's wagon, or did StrangerCoug save them having to place the hammer? This is WIFOM loaded, but needs to be considered. Gut is telling me they were on the wagon already, but I haven't analyzed it in any meaningful fashion. Not even enough for Psyche to dismiss it as wrong.

DLG · Post Post #3030 (isolation #44) » Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:16 am

Yep, results, please.

12 dead Town and 4 dead scum and 8 alive. Unless there's a very weird distribution, we should be in decent shape.

Pending results from RachMarie, I could go for maxwell.

Oh, and someone new that I think deserves attention is Psyche. I might even tunnel on him a little bit, just sayin'.

I'll look at the vote counts later.

DLG · Post Post #3046 (isolation #45) » Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:02 am

Benmage wrote:Town seems so goddamn powerul.....

Yep. Incredibly.

Benmage wrote:So we pretty much have 2 lynches to nail the final scum. We should have this.

Sure, plus, consider this. If there is only one scum left, a HezLucky SK flip provides for 3 virtually confirmed Town heading into tonight. maxwell, me, Psyche.

I'm very good with that.

HezLucky is at L-2, now. I'll be voting him, too.

But, need to hear from Maxous, again, and Psyche, Code_X, HezLucky.

DLG · Post Post #3079 (isolation #46) » Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:32 am

Seacore, Day 2.

Well, time to put that theory to the test.

VOTE: Maxous

@ Psyche
Seems to me that it comes down to either Code_X or Maxous, with an outside shot at maxwell. Who's your preference?

DLG · Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:11 pm

UNVOTE: Maxous
I wanna think over Psyche's point.

Plus, I have this weird paranoia that we're at 4 v 2, not 5 v 1.

DLG · Post Post #3090 (isolation #48) » Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:36 pm

Benmage wrote:...an alternative to the OGML wagon.

I've been re-reading Day 4, and this makes sense. Maxous didn't actually cast his vote on FakeGod until after andrew94 really ramped up the OhGodMyLife pressure.

I don't really know what to make of Code_x jumping off the OhGodMyLife wagon to vote FakeGod. But, this post doesn't seem likely to come from scum.

Benmage was under pretty serious pressure, and there just doesn't seem much good reason to come off a mislynch and onto a scumPRbuddy.

So, here's the deal.

I'm hammering Maxous.

Post your final reads/thoughts.

The only way this is a loss is if Benmage and Code_X are both scum. If Maxous

is

Town, then Day 8 should be a 2 v 1 Lylo with one confirmed Town.

DLG · Post Post #3106 (isolation #49) » Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:19 pm

Hey, so, we're likely at 3 v 1 MYLO, right? With two confirmed Town.

Why the fuck would scum kill Benmage over me or Psyche? Best guess is that they expected a No Lynch to happen and then take their chances at 2 v 1 LYLO with only one confirmed Town.

I'm gonna look over the vote counts, etc. and see what jumps out.

No way this Day needs to be rushed.

re: maxwell as possible scum.

Even if Maxous didn't know and translate the information, maxwell could have tried and failed to kill HezLucky. There was only one kill the Night before, wasn't there? That kill was redFF. It doesn't make sense that scum killed redFF, there. That would mean that HezLucky tried to shoot at RachMarie and failed, right? Why would he have done that? It just doesn't make sense.

So, maxwell concludes that his failed shot on HezLucky indicates HezLucky is NK-immune, therefore, is the SK. Cobble up the FBI agent claim to get the SK lynched and enter Night with two scum left and no chance of being shot by the SK.

Eh, this was a tin-foil hat theory I had virtually immediately when maxwell claimed.

@ Psyche
I'd like your thoughts on this idea.

DLG · Post Post #3113 (isolation #50) » Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:17 am

In post 3107, maxwell wrote:DLG, I see no reason mafia wouldn't shoot redFF - they needed to kill him to kill the cop, who was the biggest threat to them.

This, I agree with on the surface. But, the question becomes, where was HezLucky's shot?

Code_X wrote:Max is scum. Has to be.

So, seriously, why not vote him?

Psyche and I are the confirmed Town, here. We're the ones who have to make a decision. I don't see anywhere else your vote could possibly go.

Can you describe to me a scenario where you don't vote maxwell? The "don't rush this thing" line is coming across as more of an attempt to gain some Town points than coming from actual Town in your shoes.

If I'm Town, in your position, I'm voting maxwell and trying to convince me and Psyche to lynch the scumbag for the Town win.

maxwell wrote:Think about it - if Benmage were alive today, it almost certainly would have been him vs code, and I'd be considered effectively clear. And I think anyone would have voted code in a scenario that was him vs. benmage. There is no way he would have won that one.

That's why benmage is dead. It forces me into consideration against code_x, instead of benmage, and he sees me as the better target. That's it. It makes so much sense.

I don't follow this. Consider me and Psyche interchangeable for a second.

What you're describing is a final four of {Benmage, you, Code_X, me/Psyche}. Why would you be considered "effectively cleared", there? I think, if it was me in that group, the choice would still be you versus Code_X.

@ Psyche
If you had to decide, right this second, would you rather lynch or no lynch this Day? I'm for lynching. What we know is that at least two Town votes have to coincide for a lynch to occur. I'd rather have you and I come to a consensus than one or the other of us having to decide alone.

DLG · Post Post #3116 (isolation #51) » Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:09 am

@ Psyche
I absolutely agree.

@ Code_X and maxwell
Could you provide your best reasons why we should lynch the other?

DLG · Post Post #3120 (isolation #52) » Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:22 pm

In post 3119, maxwell wrote:I'm working on a case. It'll take a few days given the size of the game, though. Please be patient.

Sure thing.

Have you found anything of interest, Psyche?

I'm curious about this.

Maxous wrote:Alright, so results please Rach?

I'm thinking Maxwell would prolly be the best option today, barring Rach claiming a guilty of course

This was Maxous's opening post of Day 6. At that time, the distribution was 5 v 2 v 1. I don't know if he'd bus maxwell at that point, but I do note that he didn't actually vote maxwell. This is very similar to his FakeGod stance, where he sets-up the distancing without actually voting.

Eh, I dunno. What do you think?

DLG · Post Post #3132 (isolation #53) » Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:02 am

I'll be back around on SUnday.

Taking my wife to see Stevie Nicks and Rod Stewart.

DLG · Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:21 pm

I'll look forward to any input. We've got a week to decide.

DLG · Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:53 am

@ Psyche
You ready to end this?

I am.

VOTE: Code_X

In the end, I believe maxwell's claim and it makes sense as a counter to a Bulletproof/Investigation immune SK. Also, I just feel like maxwell's play to start this Day makes more sense from a Town perspective.

I'll be glad to listen if you stongly favor lynching maxwell, but this is where I'm at.

DLG · Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:47 pm

In post 3143, Code_X wrote:
In post 3087, Benmage wrote:At this point with PoE and just mafia reads, I'm confident it isn't codeX.

Leaving the max's.... so get'r done.

I know this will probably WIFOM you both to death.

But why would I as scum kill Benmage ahead of two cleared innocents?

Ya know, this is something I've wondered about myself. I can't answer it, fully. I suppose I'd like an explanation post-game from you.

Best I can figure is Benmage had demonstrated himself to be a deadly threat to scum. He was, by any measure, virtually as confirmed as me and Psyche, and a far better player. Like I said, demonstrably deadly to scum later in the game. As far as using him to gain a final mislynch with his posted read on you, that's a viable point, I suppose.

Still, not everything is going to make sense in a game this large and complex.

What do you mean about HezLucky? He claimed both NK immune and investigation immune. Sure, he was SK, not Town. But, why would he lie about those things?

Why were you so reticent to vote maxwell to start this Day?

DLG · Post Post #3156 (isolation #57) » Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:12 pm

In post 3086, Code_X wrote:FakeGod was a predictable lynch though.

If we're all in agreement that Maxwell is town as I say it will be simple.

Albeit, I'm not convinced yet on his innocence.

If you want to lynch me before Maxous then fine. Though I'd prefer it the other way around.

I don't know quite what to make of this.

We were at 4 v 2, at the time, although everyone seemed to think it was 5 v 1.

Would scum!Code_X throw himself in front of his buddy Maxous's lynch? A Code_X scum flip would just place an extra burden of suspicion on Maxous.

Would Town!Code_X be willing to die instead of Maxous, there? I can actually see this, especially if he believed that it was 5 v 1.

AAAARRRGGGHHHH!

UNVOTE: Code_X

DLG · Post Post #3161 (isolation #58) » Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:48 am

In post 3158, maxwell wrote:I don't understand what you're getting at here. Being self-sacrific is townish in early game, in the late game it just seems off. But regardless, There's a pretty good reason for him to suggest the possibility of him getting lynched befoe maxous - he knew Maxous was flipping MAFIA ROLECOP and that maxous's chances of winning solo were better than his.

My point is that from scum!Code_X's point of view, it's a stupid gambit. Suppose we had lynched Code_X, then, and he flipped scum, and the game wasn't over, like it wasn't. Is there any way Maxous survives the fall out from that? It's patently clear that Maxous would have had to die. It just doesn't make any sense.

By that time in the game, there was no difference between scum RoleCop and Goon. All of the PR's had been killed except maybe you.

It was 4 v 2. All scum needed was one single mislynch for the win. For Maxous to distance from you does have advantages, though. He did it without voting for you. That leaves us in the dilemma we now have.

Psyche wrote:SO MANY PRS. The last listing excluded the universal backup, too. V.V

Well, there's 8 confirmed, out of 17 Town. maxwell's being true would be 9 out of 17. That seems so hugely powered.

I'll be damned if I know.

Ain't this fun? I mean, there's only 15 other players hoping we get this right.

DLG · Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:33 pm

@ Psyche
Will you be around tomorrow (Saturday) at around 10:00 pm EST?

I want to make sure we are able to enact whichever lynch we decide on ahead of deadline. I'll read through all the foregoing and be ready to make a final decision by then.

DLG · Post Post #3214 (isolation #60) » Sat Jul 28, 2012 2:01 am

Hey, this is a pretty good end-game. Whoever is scum has done a decent job, or alternatively, whoever is Town plus me and Psyche haven't. I vote for the first option.

maxwell's play on the Day of Maxous' lynch makes most sense to me as Town oriented. The general run of thought was 5 v 1, so a mislynch doesn't hurt. Thus, his willingness to just go along with lynching Maxous.

The reality of 4 v 2, putting scum so close to a win, makes Code_X's reluctance to vote Maxous seem more scum oriented. Even when he did vote Maxous, it wasn't compelling, more like a forced vote to not stem momentum.

maxwell wrote:Fine with this. it's one or the other, interactions with LLD point a little more toward Maxous.

VOTE: Maxous

Benmage wrote:I can explain why its Maxous, later if you guys really want me to....

Cause I'm about to goto the gym.

But it'd be easier to just go with the guy whose been the most accurate this game (hint hint, thats me)

Code_X wrote:VOTE: Maxous

There were other posts between those, but that's the general sequence. Given what we now know were the circumstances, I just can't see where maxwell would just automatically throw away any chance of a win right then and there.

Alright, I'll deal with any criticism post game. My final read is

VOTE: Code_X

Psyche, I'll check back before deadline. If you want to go with maxwell, instead, let me know. I'll consider switching based on your input. Otherwise, vote Code_X, and cross your fingers we win.

DLG · Post Post #3218 (isolation #61) » Sat Jul 28, 2012 2:53 am

In post 3215, Code_X wrote:I believed we were at 5-1. At the time I believed it to be between Maxous and Maxwell. I know it looks bad, but he doesn't consider any other option, he knows for sure Maxous would end up scum. Where as I was unsure because I thought it was between Maxous and Maxwell for the last scum.

In post 3216, Code_X wrote:And DLG town made a similar move that day. Psyche voted for me, he was unsure of Maxous at supposed 5-1.

Here's the thing.

When I unvoted, it was

because

it occured to me that we could be at 4 v 2. So, my thought process most closely matches someone who

knew

we were at 4 v 2. Which is more you than maxwell.

Ahhh, I'm not in any way, shape, or form certain of this decision.

I even had a moment, this morning, when I thought Psyche could have been Scum Universal Back-up. Thing is, though, he posted after I had voted Code_X this Day, and didn't take the winning hammer. I checked.

So, I appreciate how bad this must feel if I'm wrong, Code_X. Also, how bad it must feel if I'm right, lol.

For good or bad, I'm sticking unless Psyche feels really strong the other way.

DLG · Post Post #3241 (isolation #62) » Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:58 am

Hey, hey, roughly 5 hours to deadline.

Psyche, I'm willing to switch if you really feel maxwell is most likely. I mean, sheeping Benmage's reads seems like a decently high percentage play.

The most compelling point for scum maxwell is the death of Benmage. The most compelling point for Code_X is the hesitancy on Day 7 and even on this Day 8.

There's tons more for both, either way, but those are the key factors for me.

I'll switch before deadline if you don't Psyche. It's that simple. We want this game over today, and there's nothing to be gained by pushing for one more game Day.

DLG · Post Post #3242 (isolation #63) » Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:59 am

Ninja'd, I think it's 5 hours.

You want me to switch?

DLG · Post Post #3244 (isolation #64) » Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:06 am

Isn't the deadline 1 pm Central Time? That's 2 pm for me (EST) and 11 am? for PST.

DLG · Post Post #3247 (isolation #65) » Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:31 am

30 minutes, by my count.

You around, Psyche?

DLG · Post Post #3250 (isolation #66) » Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:40 am

Oh, man, I hope I was right!

Good game, everyone. Apologies if I blew it for Town.

DLG · Post Post #3252 (isolation #67) » Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:41 am

You and me, both.

DLG · Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:08 am

Ahh, this wasn't Psyche's or Code_X's fault. It was pretty much mine.

Psyche was right, and I forced the issue. Next time I'm in LyLo, I'm going to convince myself who's scum and vote the other way.

Without a doubt I should have known what the Benmage kill meant. That should have meant more than Code_X's tentativeness, but I wrapped myself up in the might be's instead of just going with the obvious answer.

@ PeregrineV
I loved the flavor. Top notch work, and made the game experience that much more fun.