NY 172: Another Large Normal (GAME OVER)

[Zdenek]

Vote: ThaD

You haven't posted in the neighborhood QT yet. What's up with that?

Vote: ThAd

[Zdenek]

Vote: ThaD

You haven't posted in the neighborhood QT yet. What's up with that?

Lolz, I'll get on that

In other news I like being out of rvs within 3 live posts. While its sort of forced (what super early day 1 case stuff isn't) I still like rogers better for it.

I'm scum.

Lemme guess: "reaction testing"?

vote: bjc

There you go, now you can call me scum for "taking the bait".

Cool. You are scum.

[Zdenek]

I'm scum.

There is no legitimate purpose to this as Town. bjc is either scum or not worth listening to. Obtuse gambits are anti-Town.

Sticking with talah for now, but this deserves a vote later.

And with Doc Holliday, yeah?

[Zdenek]

That's even more scumtastic.

Obfuscation is now added to the lack of sincerity.

overstating a tad here

post 20 logic's got an overexplainy vibe

hyperagressive scum? shrug, too early to tell.

vote: Mister Rogers

And 4nx, I presume?

[Zdenek]

Welcome ZD.

Who are you?

[Zdenek]

I'm scum.

What a peculiar post. No meaning, no purpose, no humour. Everything else in this game thus far is smoke clouding my vision.

Vote: bjc

(Note: Kinda busy today and tomorrow. Home with my family for my birthday. Though I still should have enough access to post and keep up, I won't be able to make more substantive posts until Monday.)

#4

[Zdenek]

Mister Rogers, Talah and Doc all getting ~into it~ right out of the gate is lovely. Whether they are super-cool town or over-enthusiastic scum remains to be seen, however.

Doc Holliday, I have to say that your 'out of RVS' post was rather disappointing, and unfortunately I am inclined to believe that it was in reaction to my vote. Considering that there wasn't any in-game evidence to be had, I think it would have been more beneficial to wait if talah actually continued doing this later, before making an early accusation. It would have been appropriate as merely a pressure vote, but the post where you leave your vote on talah despite your dislike for the guy that claimed scum indicates that it's actually something serious. Talah may still be scum, I don't know, but I don't see how he/she/puppy would would be more likely to do that as scum than as town.

I can also confirm that talah was not burned by me whatsoever. Rogers, what was it that gave you that impression? Also, why are you so interested in the game? What do you hope to gain from having the link to it?

ThAdmiral, is there any point to your vote on bjc other than to look town?

I think that he (Deas) tends to get over-explanatory as scum, dotting i's and crossing t's where town probably wouldn't.

I think you are completely right about this.

Taleh, is this DV dotting i's and crossing t's?

I really dislike that first sentence and that question about why someone would ask for a link to a game odd.

[Zdenek]

And 4nx, I presume?

hmm?

You attack Mr. Rogers for reasons that suggest that you think that he's hyper-aggressive scum, or whatever phrase you used, but cheapen it by saying that it's too early to tell if that's what he is.

[Zdenek]

The only point I see zdenek making about me is "#4", which you'll forgive me if I don't find it to be spectacular analysis.

That is where you are wrong.

[Zdenek]

Zdenek! I feel that our reads are similar (I can't say I'm feeling Damon-scum yet though), but you're scumreading me and that's not very good, so I'll kindly ask you to stop.

No problem DV!

I have a proposal: larges these days have exploded in length. I am proposing we limit posts per person to be five a day, to see if we can get the shortest recent large game.

No way mastin. (But I don't mind wagonning people and lynching someone and not drawing day one out to 100 pages for instance.)

Can you explain why you're white-knighting bjc so much?

I don't think I'm white-knighting him. I mean I don't have a take on him yet. I do think that the people voting him over claiming scum are somewhat scummy - you for trying to dodge the accusation of taking the bait by making light of it in your post, and Gant for voting him while only saying that he found his post peculiar, plus making out of game excuses.

I don't like that you are accusing me of white-knighting someone you're voting.

[Zdenek]

Yeah, you're scum. This line of thought simply doesn't come from a town player. Town player? "Why do you think Rogers is town? Why do you think I'm scum?" Scum player? "Why do you think our interactions are town vs. scum?" (Making an assumption that interactions have anything to do with the read. They might contribute to the overall picture, but are largely irrelevant.) "...Also, he unvoted me; surely that makes him either scum or wrong." (That's essentially what talah's saying, here.)

This looks good.

[Zdenek]

Yo.

I have a proposal: larges these days have exploded in length. I am proposing we limit posts per person to be five a day, to see if we can get the shortest recent large game.

This is just...no. No. Stop it.

Mr. Rogers is a cutie pie thus far! (also seemingly town)

VOTE: mastin

Your posts annoy me. Please make them not, thx.

We could lynch this, for instance.

[Zdenek]

how the heck do you have me leaning town when I have barely posted Talah?

Cause she's scum.

how the heck do you have me leaning town when I have barely posted Talah?

Prolly cuz posts like this. I'm townreading you pretty hard right now, Rachy.

Prolly with BioChemist.

Mastin's play continues to be very bleh. Giving garbage reads, and now trying to spoonfeed us what his meta is. That's not going to work - when I have time tonight I'll be looking at Mastin's meta for myself. It does need doing, because of the unorthodox playstyle - but I'm not going to be told by the player himself what his meta is, and essentially that his meta this game corresponds with his meta for town.

And him.

Anx isn't as bad as I thought.

[Zdenek]

I'm scum.

There is no legitimate purpose to this as Town. bjc is either scum or not worth listening to. Obtuse gambits are anti-Town.

Sticking with talah for now, but this deserves a vote later.

*bets on Doc being buddies with Taleh*

I have played with BB a lot and he replaces out due to RL issues not because of alignment.

It drives me nuts when people assume that others have the same knowledge as they do.

People's reaction to my first post has been stupid. Mastin's in particular seems like he just has a problem with just the way that I weighed my words. It's how I post - particularly if I'm making a post with quite a simple and concise point. Indeed, just in general, I don't find Mastin's reads to be very good. The certainty in them is obviously part of his meta, but I do disagree with pretty much all of it. I'm not sure if posting such disagreeable reads is part of his meta! I don't have any particularly strong feelings on his proposal for a limit of posting - but as others do, I guess that's not happening.

Gant complaining about Mastin's reads is rather hilarious considering he apparently doesn't have many of his own.

[Zdenek]

I meant to

Vote: Gant

[Zdenek]

So why did you disagree with Mastin's reads?

[Zdenek]

- Zdenek, from your perspective don't you think it's a reasonable assumption that if a person votes you and says on the very next line that the person attacking you is town, that they're assuming an argument is town vs scum?

Yes, but that doesn't need to be the reason that they think you are scum.

Couple that with the fact that for a supposed 'reaction vote' on me - I was the player who'd already come under the most scrutiny up to that point. So mastin's happy to townread, say, aptil on the basis of one very shonky post, but needs to reaction-test me when I'm the player who already has the most in-thread content to read from?

All of this fits with the Mastin I know and I don't think it's alignment related. However, I think you are misrepresenting what actually happened. Mastin read your content, thought it was scummy, voted you and also didn't like your reaction to the vote.

[Zdenek]

Bad logic is anti-town, therefore scum. Good logic is anti-town, therefore increased probability of being scum.

I feel like those aren't the words you meant to use.
Also,

So why did you disagree with Mastin's reads?

[Zdenek]

I agree with Smudger and Nero, would like to see posts from them, but poking a projectmatt is kinda dumb. He replaced in just about an hour before your post.

Ha ha. You are scum with Gant. That is the most boring interaction imaginable.

[Zdenek]

Zdenek - what's it up to now 6 scum reads and no town reads? Bullshit alarm is going off. scum

I've seen no reason to have given out any town reads yet.

[Zdenek]

I agree with Smudger and Nero, would like to see posts from them, but poking a projectmatt is kinda dumb. He replaced in just about an hour before your post.

Ha ha. You are scum with Gant. That is the most boring interaction imaginable.

Aw dang man, ya caught me. Great comment by the way, totally not boring and meaningless. Any specific reason you think I'm scum?

Yes - trying to undermine mastin, your argument for why Taleh could be town reading Rach.

[Zdenek]

Oh and ThAd is literally voting me for scum-hunting.

[Zdenek]

Vote: BipolarChemist

[Zdenek]

Rach made posts questioning why someone else thought she was town. I think that's pretty town, as I don't see scum questioning that. I also see it as some decent scumhunting.

The post you are talking about came AFTER Taleh a gave a town read on Rach and could not have been the reason why Taleh was town reading Rach. So the fact that you are defending Taleh's town read on Rach by citing that post makes absolutely no sense.

[Zdenek]

how the heck do you have me leaning town when I have barely posted Talah?

Prolly cuz posts like this. I'm townreading you pretty hard right now, Rachy.

It's pretty clear to me.

[Zdenek]

BipolarChemist's change in tone is really weird to me. He goes from being insulting to saying lol nah man between two posts.

I think it's cause he's scum who's angry I busted him and now he's trying to get me to back off by relaxing.

[Zdenek]

So you don't have a town read on Rach?

[Zdenek]

The time for you to have come clean about being sarcastic was in 151. I also was very specific about you defending Taleh's town read on Rach. I did not say that you were generally defending Taleh.

Frankly, I don't believe that you were being sarcastic - You quoted a post of hers that you said was town and you've since argued that it was town. Are you trying to argue that you actually don't think that Taleh's town read on Rach is justified, and that is the thing that you were being sarcastic about?

[Zdenek]

The time for you to have come clean about being sarcastic was in 151. I also was very specific about you defending Taleh's town read on Rach. I did not say that you were generally defending Taleh.

Frankly, I don't believe that you were being sarcastic - You quoted a post of hers that you said was town and you've since argued that it was town. Are you trying to argue that you actually don't think that Talah's town read on Rach is justified, and that is the thing that you were being sarcastic about?

You're assuming I garnered an opinion on Talah's read, rather than making a general statement. I didn't have more of an opinion on Talah's read because I didn't care enough about it to make more than a sarcastic comment.

I'm not to sure of the point you're trying to make with this either. Would there be a problem if I did think Talah is correct in his townread?

Well, what I think is that I gave some reasons for why I think that your scum, you reacted by becoming angry and insulting, and now you're trying to weasel your way out of the situation by saying that you were being sarcastic. I also think that if you were town you would have explained that you were being sarcastic off the bat. Right now, I'm trying to work out just how full of shit you are.

[Zdenek]

Wouldn't be the first time.

[Zdenek]

Kill: BipolarChemist

Fuck this noise.

[Zdenek]

He thought I was scum, but gave away that he knows I am town in the preceding post. It was obvious that he's scum. gg

[Zdenek]

@ZD: Can you clarify which posts from the rapid cluster you are referring to?

You two in love in your little scummy corner?

Thinks I'm scum.

But you're also wrong?

I got that feeling.

Okay make sense if he thinks I'm town.

[Zdenek]

Man, you don't really get that I'm being sarcastic do you?

Well it doesn't matter cause you're dead and I won't have to worry about it any more.

[Zdenek]

Whelp

Unvote

Vote: Gant

[Zdenek]

Well at least we know you're town.

[Zdenek]

What do you think of Anxiety's last post?

[Zdenek]

You're not dead.

[Zdenek]

You're not dead.

...was that a fake shot? Or are you just trying to get my hopes up?

It was fake.

Anyway, what I don't like about 4nx's post is that he both Mastin and Gant are scum reading Doc, 4nx is interested in Gant's scum read, calls Mastin's read garbage. The only way this makes any sense is if Anx is town reading Doc, but as far as I can tell he doesn't have a read on him.

[Zdenek]

That makes sense.

[Zdenek]

Yeah, you're scum. This line of thought simply doesn't come from a town player. Town player? "Why do you think Rogers is town? Why do you think I'm scum?" Scum player? "Why do you think our interactions are town vs. scum?" (Making an assumption that interactions have anything to do with the read. They might contribute to the overall picture, but are largely irrelevant.) "...Also, he unvoted me; surely that makes him either scum or wrong." (That's essentially what talah's saying, here.)

This looks good.

Really? Am I missing something because (no offense to Mastin) but it read to me like a barely substantial semantics argument which would be better suited for RVS.

I think mastin's view of the townie thought process is about right. I think that talah asking about interactions, which mastin never mentioned, is an attempt to get mastin to argue for something that the never claimed, force him into arguing a particular point or have him admit that he doesn't think that the interactions are scummy. The second comment seems to me to be simply manipulative. To me it boils down to Talah saying: if you think I'm scum, then you must think that I've fooled Mr. Rogers, Mr. Rogers is town, but wrong, which is really not a remarkable opinion to hold in a mafia game at all.

[Zdenek]

I would expect a normal town player who is actually trying to determine people's alignments to have come up with approximately the same amount of scum reads as town reads.

At this stage of the game that's just silly.

[Zdenek]

Provocative in the right ways. His other posts are neutral, but I definitely feel this one leans town.

Yet Doc is a scum read of yours?

both myself AND DG but

Anx goes back down the list.

@Zdenek - can you explain how you arrived at what must be an obv Town read on bjc that's so strong it lead you to the conclusions posted in posts 50, 51, 53, and 56?

Those have little bearing on any read that I have on bjc. I've explained some of them already.

Also, on a kind of related but unrelated point, can you explain post 144 to me? I mean, I agree with Chemist that Gant calling out a dude [projectmatt] for not posting that has only been in the game for an hour is pretty sketch. Do you disagree? What am I missing, here?

I think Gant is scum and I think that there are positive things that BipolarChemist could have brought up, but he focused on something incredibly boring. It was a really weak interaction between someone and a scum read of mine and I wanted to provoke BipolarChemist.

This all happened in the span of like 15 minutes. This actually looks organic to some of you???

What does the time frame have to do with it?

[Zdenek]

I don't have a read on bjc at the moment. What I have are reads on people's reactions to his scum claim.

[Zdenek]

I don't have a read on bjc at the moment. What I have are reads on people's reactions to his scum claim.

How can those reads have any validity without a read on bjc?

Because they aren't about him.
The issue I had with ThAd's post was that he shielded himself from complaints that he was taking the bait by making a joke about it.
The issue I had with Doc's post was the comment about this deserves a vote later. It's him opening up the door to get off the Talah wagon.
The issue I had with Damon Gant's post was that he was making out of game excuses. I also didn't like that he called the post peculiar (as opposed to scummy).

[Zdenek]

Why?

Why in God's name should anyone have the same number as town reads as scum reads?

[Zdenek]

I don't have a read on bjc at the moment. What I have are reads on people's reactions to his scum claim.

How can those reads have any validity without a read on bjc?

Because they aren't about him.
The issue I had with ThAd's post was that he shielded himself from complaints that he was taking the bait by making a joke about it.

(Scum bait or town bait?)

The issue I had with Doc's post was the comment about this deserves a vote later. It's him opening up the door to get off the Talah wagon.

(To vote scum bjc to bus or vote town bjc to mislynch?)

The issue I had with Damon Gant's post was that he was making out of game excuses. I also didn't like that he called the post peculiar (as opposed to scummy).

(so is he distancing from scum-bjc or fencesitting on town-bjc?)

I don't feel you can adequately assign alignments to reactions-to-bjc without assigning a bjc alignment (without MSU).

It's like you just demonstrated how I don't need to have a read on bjc, since you gave possibilities for each of those things regardless of what alignment bjc is.

[Zdenek]

How do you get from giving me examples of things scum could be doing based on bjc being either town or scum to asking me about whether ThAd, doc or damon is scum or not scum?

[Zdenek]

Your thought progression here makes no sense to me at all.

[Zdenek]

indeed.

Unvote.
Vote: Talah

[Zdenek]

I saw Zdenek's vote coming from halfway around the map.

Good. Then you know what I am thinking and should be town reading me.

Zdenek, I feel really conflicted about Bipolar's reaction to your fakevig. I completely agreed with your scumread, but considering that the dayvig gambit has become so common that it's often used as a joke, I don't know if I trust his reaction. What are your thoughts?

I think that if he's scum, then he's scum who claimed VT on one day one of a large game and will get busted any way.
I also think that his responses to what I did look legit.

How do you get from giving me examples of things scum could be doing based on bjc being either town or scum to asking me about whether ThAd, doc or damon is scum or not scum?

Because how scum interacts with scum is different than how scum interacts with town. You are trying to contend that all are scum merely because they interacted?

Nope. I contend that a bunch of people reacted poorly to a day one scum claim.

[Zdenek]

Why do you think there are at least three people asking you how you jumped to these conclusions?

I like to think they are just being a bit obnoxious and pressuring me a little because it's all pretty obvious stuff.

[Zdenek]

Everything? The timing makes it look orchestrated.

So you think it should have happened faster?

[Zdenek]

ESPECIALLY the certainty that came with it.

What certainty?

Actually it makes perfect sense. You are trying to assign scum motivation to people's reaction to the bjc post whilst leaving the -exact- motivation up for interpretation. Is there a distinct -lack- of town motivation in the responses? I don't see any. Its realllly not going to fly to say "Ya these reactions are scum-motivated for whatever reason you want them to be". Justify yourself or get dunked.

It was page two and I was trying to provoke reactions. I find it hard to imagine that you could think I was doing anything differently.

[Zdenek]

Actually, that last sentence by AP is so fucking stupid I can't imagine that it's coming from town-AP. It's pretty fucking standard reasoning in mafia to express the point of view that someone is scummy for something for different reasons depending on the unknown alignment of another.

[Zdenek]

Unvote
Vote: AP

[Zdenek]

The part where he auto-claims without bothering to figure out at all if you are full of shit. Townies are generally paranoid about that.

He's pretty new, so him taking it face-value isn't really that surprising. Personally, I still think that he could be scum, I really hate the sarcasm excuse that he kept using, but having him locked into a claim is okay for me for now.

Ok, well this is page 10 and you apparently still believe those reads are good because you are arguing them with PV so cut this crap about it being page 2. I think PV's points make sense.

I'm arguing with PV about them because he's bringing them up. They are doing little to inform my reads at the moment.

[Zdenek]

but that doesn't mean that I think they are irrelevant.

[Zdenek]

The day there is a post that town couldn't make I'll eat my hat.

[Zdenek]

Do you believe them or not? You clearly at least partially believe those points since you are bothering to argue them with PV.

I believe everything that I wrote, but I'm not going to try to drive anyone to the gallows because of those things.

[Zdenek]

The fact the BipolarChemist vanished when the pressure came off of him bugs me quite a lot, and he's been posting elsewhere.

[Zdenek]

Angry Pidgeon is here to save the day!

Do you think he's town?

I am pretty shocked about ZD's reactions regarding your posts.

AP is posting nonsense. The "I don't see why town couldn't make that post" argument is nuts and the you have to specify exactly what the scum motivation argument is too. He's using fancy rhetoric, but his thoughts are contrived.

I didn't think Chemist's responses were authentic - I mean the fact that he's asking Zdenek whether he can still post or not implies he *knows* that Zdnenek is town?

What would have been authentic?

Yeah, then I might know what you're thinking. But right now I have no idea.

I only get one vote, I was using it somewhere else at the time. Now, I'm using it somewhere else again. Laa dee daa.

But Zdenek bailed on his strong push pretty quickly only on the basis of the reaction.

It wasn't just the reaction. It was the also the claim and BPC being antagonistic. It was good enough for me at the time.

I was dayvigged by scum I would be fucking livid, not asking that scum whether I was still allowed to post.

I hadn't thought about this. I still think that there is a certain consistency in BPCs thoughts - the comment about antagonizing me being fun, and expressing an interest in going playing in a friends game - they jive with him not being upset.

[Zdenek]

He comes across as apathetic, which I would attribute more to Town in the early stages of a game as opposed to scum.

Where does this idea come from?

[Zdenek]

So he *could be* scum but he's at least scum that claimed VT so whatevs?

It means he can never do the nk and there are a variety of power-roles that could potentially catch him if he's scum. It means that he has very little wiggle room to get out of anything.

[Zdenek]

Yes. It should have looked even more scripted. <- That's sarcasm, btw. I felt the need to point that out since you are missing a lot of obvious points lately.

If it happened slower and I would have thought that he was taking time to perfect lies.

[Zdenek]

What makes you think, that I think that it is some sort of game-changer? I don't think that, by the way, it's just strange that's the impression that you have.

[Zdenek]

I really don't think that it's even possible for the whole thing to have happened over a day or two. We were both there typing at once.

This is probably the first time I've seen someone suggest that interactions taking place over a longer period of time seem more legitimate.

[Zdenek]

Let's look at this a different way...
When is the last time you saw a fake vig shot catch scum?
OR - since this will give you are larger pool - when is the last time you saw a fake hammer catch scum?
Cripes, in ALL the REAL hammers you have seen - in what % of those hammers [excluding end game] did the scum just give up the ghost and go "awe shucks - you caught me. Good job!"

I think that it's somewhat rare to catch scum in single instances, but what this has done is it's caused people to take stances on me on BipolarChemist, hell even on things like gambits. Depending on how the game goes, these may be useful later.

[Zdenek]

Dang Talah calm down my head is on fire reading your :goodposting:

What did you like about Talah's posting?

[Zdenek]

It's okay. I was rereading. I'll get to it.

[Zdenek]

Pardon me but are you guys a hydra? Or is it scum buddies? I mean, why are you answering for Yates here?

Wow, what a terrible post. No, I happened to agree with Yates about the Vig interaction. People townreading the situation ARE being naive and your stated reasons for voting Yates don't make any sense. I'll call bullshit out when I see it, thanks.

The only thing that bothered me about Pisskop was his stance on Talah:

At this point, I want to say that Talah's style of posting seems to have a natural town feel.

Not too sure on him, but still leaning scum.

And the quoted posts seem mostly arbitrary on top of this. Then suddenly he affirms Talah is town after this post:

Pidgeon - quick one from work - were you asked to join this game, or did you replace in of your own accord?

And did you skim / read any of the thread prior to replacing in?

talah can be towny for now

Which wasn't a townie post? I mean it was a pretty whatever post, dunno why pisskop cared about it unless he just wanted to rectify his previous waffle on Talah.

LOLZ

Unvote
Vote: pisskop

[Zdenek]

Probably the fact you immediately dropped your pursuit after a VT claim.

I'm gonna do that a lot today. That's hardly indicative of game changing.

Right. To me a normal conversation looks like what we are doing now. When there's just a back and forth between two people over a super short period of time? It stands out.

I don't get it - "stands out" - who gives a fuck?

You dropping the focus off Chemist entirely is another. I don't know if it's because you are scum buddies and you feel like you got the Town to read you both as Town as a result of your gambit or if YOU are scum and just don't want to pursue a VT since you'd rather nail a PR. I also wouldn't expect you - as Town - to just assume Chemist is Town because he claimed VT as if that isn't the most common fake scum claim ever. I don't really like any of these scenarios and I don't understand the game play here.

We're on day one. I voted BPC for something that looked out of place. He said he was being sarcastic. I did't really buy it, but based on my interactions with him, it seems like a more reasonable explanation that I thought it was.

[Zdenek]

Nope. I contend that a bunch of people reacted poorly to a day one scum claim.

I don't want to fight about this, but what is a "good" (as opposed to poor) reaction to a day one scum claim?

Good, idk, but there are ones that are "not poor." In this thread even. Even one written by you.

[Zdenek]

Vote Talah

I could still go this way.

[Zdenek]

Vote Talah

I could still go this way.

Who are your top scum reads?

There's too many people I don't have a handle on for me to make reasonable list at this point.

[Zdenek]

So you want to vote someone that isn't scum?

I'm not sure why your asking me this, but, no.

[Zdenek]

I figure Pisskop isn't talking about his Talah read because he's scum and he's hoping no one will notice his shifting read on the slot.

[Zdenek]

I figure Pisskop isn't talking about his Talah read because he's scum and he's hoping no one will notice his shifting read on the slot.

Im unsure whats sillier -

-that you have a solid enough scumread on talah to vote me for (quite) publicly waffling on him and yet still vote me

-that Im avoiding discussion about a read I have when nobody has outstanding questions about. that includes you, who made a deliberate show of ignoring direct reference to me until then.

-that of all the content Ive put forth my read on Talah is your focus. nevermind my 'flip' on thad or my interactions with yates or my refusal to judge the absence of content.

-that you responded to a quote of APs to vote me

in short, get bent or get a case.

This is basically a confession, so I guess I don't need case.
Good. This way to the gallows.

[Zdenek]

So what does Pisskop do when the problem with his reads on Talah is mentioned. He ignores it. When I don't let him get away with that he tries to pretend that he was "publicly waffling" on Talah, which would be all well and good if it came with some explanation of what he was thinking, but it doesn't. He acts as though somehow that I didn't mention him before affects his alignment, as though somehow is other content should make me forget about his Talah problem without explaining why, and as though since AP pointed out the problem with his Talah read, I shouldn't be using it against him.

Also there's one of my favourite things, he asks me to get a case on him. That's just him telling us that he's scum.

[Zdenek]

I did notice that his sudden switch on Talah looked poorly done, based on his own expressed logic.

It's cause he's scum.

Rather obvious here: MOAR BJC VOTES.

Why's that?
I think Pisskop is scummier. Especially after his response.

I'm having trouble finding a real scumread here, and I'm continually re-reading.

I have a suggestion.

And when I call it out he sits back and instead of elaboration let's you swoop in.

I responded before AP, so he didn't swoop in.

I'm not talking about my talah read because nobody is asking about it.

Me voting you should have been your cue.

His reason for voting me is weak, and his support poor and wifomy.

Maybe, but my new reasons - your response to my vote - are bodacious.

Is this a style of his?

I do both.

[Zdenek]

I'm pretty indifferent to lynching bjc. For me it would be a policy lynch.

[Zdenek]

Maybe, but my new reasons - your response to my vote - are bodacious.

Good luck with that. Whenever you feel like substantiating anything you say feel free to use that funky squiggle mark above the foreword slash on your keyboard - after you press the shift key, of course.

Still not talking about your Talah read I see.
I'm assuming that's cause it's bullshit.

[Zdenek]

Zdenek do you have the sparknotes version of why I, personally, should vote Talah?

I actually think you should vote Pisskop.

[Zdenek]

Basically it's cause his response to me attacking him was very scummy. It's 528.

[Zdenek]

@Matt: Yes you are wrong on your assertion as to why I am voting BJC. It is because he is deliberately lurking (as opposed to Aptil who is simply lurking) and because of the bizarre attention that he got for his simple "I'm scum" post.

I think moar people should be voting him.

1. How do you make the distinction between "intentionally" lurking and "simply" lurking? Those two seem like they are exactly the same thing. Bjc is just honest about his own apathy.

2. The second reason you listed is, to me, a very good reason why you should not be voting him and instead be focusing on the people who bizarrely attacked him.

So he shouldn't be lynched for failing to scumhunt?

Did you read my post where I explained why I townread him or did you just make that comment in an attempt to misrep it?

Yes, this push by PV is bad.
I also felt that way about his push on me for my early game posting.

I have been terribly busy recently which is the reason for my lack of posting, I have a day off tomorrow so will try and catch up then. It wouldn't feel right to post reads without having given the thread my full attention.

I think is coming from scum. He's basically padding his post by telling us that he's not going to make up reads.

Idk how often those are pulled, but how often do scum use that as a gambit?

I do it fairly regularly.

It sort of worries me that someone knows this about me, told Bipolar to aggravate me and coached him on how to react. However, if I was a pretty new player like Bipolar and I was involved in that sort of scheme, I'd probably have been excited and wouldn't have followed it up with lurking.

Are you familiar with the Beetlejuice tell?

How much stock do you put in it?

I'm not voting bjc purely for lurking

Why were you voting bjc?

I have scum read each of these 3 independently of their voting for Luca and it just so happens it is a pretty major coincidence that they all synched up together on the same target.

Why do you think that the votes for Luca are scummy?

vote: Yates

oh boi.

This feels legit to me.

This is scum cluttering things up.

Have you seen this happen?

page 30.

[Zdenek]

So here's what's going to happen with my pet scumlurker over the next few days:

HAI LUCA

He'll post just around or after the next dodge with an opinion on one or two of the non-controversial but mentioned players, probably laying down suspicion on someone like bjc or a quizzical query on Admiral or Pere.

A couple of days later, he'll apologise for lack of content again, and promise a catch up in the next couple of days.

He'll come back with three or four days from deadline and post a strong position on a townie for bad reasons. Then he'll attack one or two popular alternatives, very gently mind you, and place his vote on said strong-positioned townie. Posting twice or three times in the process!

Then two days out from deadline he'll say his vote needs to change to the most popular town candidate for lynch, and if there's opportunity or division close to deadline, he'll compromise on whatever townie's available.

I'm an Oracle.

I can't really see why you make this post. It just seems like you're sabotaging yourself in the long run.

Don't use out of game excuses for a read. I burned Pere on this earlier. It's super scummy.

You ignored Rogers when he did it.

Reaction Test: failed. YOU have been playing mafia too long to be dumb enough to think that was an ACTUAL scum slip accusation. If I were scum I'd push that point and call it a "slip" until you were hanged. Point of that post, though, is that it's dumb to tell people what you would do as scum and to try to pretend that the fact you aren't doing that is why you are town even though you just showed that you are aware of your scum meta and could therefore alter your meta accordingly.

This looks like bullshit.

o.o bjc placed out.

i hope its a scumtell.

What do you think?

Ya, thats pretty bad. People voting on a lone wagon should consider changing that.

You can be my Day 1 Mason buddy, AP.

Day 1 Mason QT

I think Talah's posting the last few pages has improved, but only because I didn't look to closely at it. Why am I not getting the town feeling I want from her stuff?

Because of that post?
If so, I don't see it - especially with your Mastin vote.

For an example of a Town reaction to something like this, take a look at how I responded to pisskop when he replaced in and voted me for "meta reasons."

This is Yates giving an utterly unbelievable argument to insinuate that he's town.

TBH, it's kind of a null tell BUT it borders on scummy just enough that it's one of those things you can throw at a person to see how they respond to it.

well this answers one question.

LOOK HOW MUCH FUN WE'RE HAVING!!!

Haha that is funny. You are coming across as town to me, as is Pisskop, so I will go ahead and UNVOTE: Pisskop

VOTE: 4nxi3ty

Have you read?

Before: Luca Blight [3] (Damon_Gant, 4nxi3ty, talah)
...
After: 4nxi3ty [4] (ThAdmiral, Damon_Gant, talah, Luca Blight)

This looks funny, in a bad way. Can we just lynch them all?

What are you seeing?

35

[Zdenek]

I'm going to be able to finish catching up today.

Mod: I'm going to be V/LA Monday-Wednesday. Please don't replace me.

[Zdenek]

Yay for snork you clarified that slot for me. I felt like peeps were going after bjc as low hanging fruit, something I am very familiar with since I tend to get it a lot.

What about this is alignment related?

My major concern is that he is low hanging fruit and thus an easy bus. Like we could do better?

Then we lynch scum, so that's fine.

The thought occurs to me that Luca might get sorted and we can focus elsewhere today.

How?

See as town, I'm like who is the scummiest player, THE VERY SCUMMIEST that I can be voting for AND THEN, if it is even appropriate to consider consensus, do I consider that.

Yet you defend Luca as low hanging fruit? That doesn't really make sense in the context of just finding the scummiest player.

re: Luca,

This seriously needs lynching.

I agree.

@Town:

Something is causing this imbalance. I assert that the "something" is exaggerated over-sensitivity to suspicion. I personally feel this more of a scum trait than a town trait.

And here, fellow townies, is Rogers softening his read on the player he's voting (me) and commencing Operation Finally Fucking Pushing A Case (TM).

But why would Rogers want to hedge on his scumread being scum? Is he truly going to push a policy lynch when he's been so very clear that he's scum reading me?

Answer: It's a trick question! Rodgers has, actually, been 100% opaque on whether he thinks I'm actually scum. He's hedging on all fronts, now calling it bad null play and seamlessly transitioning from an initial attack and resultant townread, to a period of silence and progressive scumread while bogging down the thread with questions which any educated rhinoceros could ask based on the events unfolding in front of its eyes.

This man who believes my play scum and asked for meta, has not even looked at the meta he asked for.

This post is a horrible misrepresentation of the situation.

Talah, so much digging going on. He claims I am a shoe-in for scum (absolute rubbish, since when has inactivity always equated to scum) and then self-votes. His opening posts also looked every so slightly dodgy.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Talah

I think this is bussing. That "so slightly dodgy" gives it away.

40

[Zdenek]

I don't "do" meta unless it's shoved in my face

+1

So you're saying you're being scummy. What do we do with people who are being scummy?

Well I suppose "we the undefined collective", in answer to a question which rams a broken pool cue into the orifice of the notion that specificity is possible to convey using the English language, attempt to clarify both the premise and the question first.

"So you're saying you're being scummy"

No, I asked Sakura why she didn't challenge my inconsistency. It turns out I'm not on her radar, and that she has Levi on the mind. I accept that response because it means she

does

have an agenda and it looks to be scumhunting. I'll keep a peripheral eye on her and see.

If you really want to know, I voted Sakura because - priorities and priorities. Nati and I vote-teaming is a useful strategy, I think, and I'm a bit disappointed Des didn't follow along (although I missed the fact he was already voting Majiffy in the first place, which may have been a bit offputting).

My understanding - or idea - with the voting pool is that there's an inherent 'unvote before lynch' agreement between all members. It's something I'm inviting my town-leaning reads to participate and interact in.

Spoiler:

You're not invited because your dropped-logic argument on pieguyn was oblivious of the context of pie getting involved in the conversation to begin with. It wasn't an assertion that (s)he made in the first place, to be accountable as scummy for dropping it.

"What do we do with people who are being scummy?"

We? Do you mean good mafia players? Good scumhunters? Yourself notionally as part of one of these groups? Yourself by extension onto the universe of how you think all Mafia players should act?
People? Me? Your grouping of all people who act scummily according to you? People who act in the same way as I am acting?
Scummy? The way I acted in this particular sequence? The assertion you are making?

I suppose one would attempt to scumhunt, assess or assert.
Determine the motivations of the non-specific players who "are being scummy".

---

Couple of follow-ups because I'm tired and have some work over the weekend.

Majiffy

- something about something about three posts. I can't remember what you said but you're irritating me using your weight on someone I've already townread probably when you thought it was still RVS. Get off pie.
Also I'm taking keen mental notes on your interactions with Deas.

dolittle

- another one. another naked townread. I don't know where you're getting this stuff from. Because you're not saying.

kayne

- where'd you go?

---

My next post will probably have "fame", "lurksack" and "hall" in the title.

Check out that awesome scum hunting post from Talah. Do you see anything like that in his ISO in this game? Its not cherry picked. Do his ISO in that game and you will see what I mean.

Sure he towns himself in that game but the active scum hunting like in that game? The active calling people out constantly? No. He definitely isn't lost in that game and its a Large Theme.

Why do you think this post is awesome?
Do you have examples of Talah playing scum that show that his play in this game is closer to his scum game?

[Zdenek]

Zdenek, you seem to think both talah and Luca are scum, but your vote remains on a pisskop wagon that realistically is very unlikely to take off. Why not consider moving it?

Well, I suspect that I will, but only once I've caught up.

[Zdenek]

LOL at "ever so slightly dodgy opening posts" being a legit reason for voting someone now.

[Zdenek]

@Zd-how does Luca's vote read as bussin' as opposed to just scum hopping on a bw?

Well I think if was scum hopping on a town band-wagon he'd go with a stronger argument to back his vote. They're already in the thread, so it's not like he as to do much work to find one. I think him going with such a shitty argument is him gassing up the escape pod if he gets the chance to get off the wagon later.

[Zdenek]

This is scum cluttering things up.

Have you seen this happen?

yes and so have you. You were in politics mafia when phil was posting like a mad man and for a more recent game you can read Saki in whatever game I just played with her.

I'm really not getting the same feeling from Mr. Rogers as from Phil, but I'll have to go back and check.

[Zdenek]

Im pretty sure at one person everybody (else) considers town is a scummy scummy man.

The the name is?

[Zdenek]

I'm gonna call Nero scum. Straight up.

Sorry can't take the posting attack pressure. That attack has broken me. Thanks Snor.

Mod replace me.

That was unexpected.

[Zdenek]

He comes across as apathetic, which I would attribute more to Town in the early stages of a game as opposed to scum.

Where does this idea come from?

VOTE: 4nxi3ty

Why did you vote Anx?

Talah looks a decent bet for now for the reasons Snork stated!

Explain them to me.

Don't take the language so literally, I think it's clear what I meant.

Unless its that you think I am scum for thinking that you presented an unnecessarily shitty argument for your vote on Talah, it's not.

[Zdenek]

Talah

, I don't think that you've ever explained why you think that it's multifaction and it's something I'd like to hear too.

Also, What do you think that AP took out of context?

[Zdenek]

Luca just ignored my whole nice post of things I'd like to hear about from him.

[Zdenek]

Vote: Luca

=====[]
[]=====

[Zdenek]

Seeing what would happen.

[Zdenek]

Back. Reading.

[Zdenek]

Let's see.

I don't like AP's defense of Luca over Luca commenting that he wouldn't play like this as scum. Luca's comment was completely null, and AP justifying it by saying that seems like something he would say is unbelievable. I also don't like AP defending PV by using other people's meta. On the other hand, 1522 at least to me it exhibits a fairly natural thought process.

I think that Snork comes out looking pretty bad in the Snork-Nero discussion. Snork made a post where he asked Nero a bunch of rhetorical questions:

Also how is it OMGUSy when I wasn't scumreading you and am unaware if you are scumreading me?

I mean, you have nothing to hide in your ISO, do you? Why wouldn't you want people to ISO you?

That post strongly implies that Snork thinks that Nero is scum, so Snork following the discussion up by saying that he's not scum reading Nero doesn't track.
Then there's

I'm not concerned with people I think are town scumreading me... Why would this even register? If I thought you might be scum, you putting me in your scumpile would be something that supports that theory. But if other evidence made me think you were town, then a healthy dose of paranoia isn't something that's going go ping.

But now that you mention it... that's.. a big list. Talk about casting a wide net.

Snork suggests that scum reading him is scummy, which is dumb, and he's town reading Nero to the point that you aren't reading his posts, but then try to undermine him by accusing him of casting a big net. It also doesn't track with a townie mindset.

I worry that I'm misreading these posts of Snork because he comes across as experienced, but presumably isn't. I thought he looked fine before these events anyway.

I think that Yates' point about PV scum hunting off the wagon is good - it very well could be fake scum hunting.

BioChemist has been chatting it up on site chat the last 2 days so I'm pretty much thinking he's scum.

All townie will I had for him is cancelled.

PV

, I'd really like you to explain your 1469.

I don't like Snow_Storm lecturing his scum-read Talah about town play, but I'm inclined to not worry about that now.

"Yo thad's scum for starting a counterwagon, lets start a counterwagon on thad"
???

Where'd Snow_Storm say the first bit?

[Zdenek]

Unvote
Vote: Talah

I think that the case on him is stronger than the case on Luca.
I also think his self-voting is purely manipulative, especially in light of wanting the town to get information from the lynches.

I also don't want Snork to think that I'm dumb - just a simple Zdenek trying to do his best.

[Zdenek]

Thanks Plessiez.

I sure would love to know what Yates said to you, but I guess that's going to stay private.

It's very hard to determine balance based on one game. I think Gant is right that everything could go well for town did. I'd say it was probably a bit town sided, the 16-4 mountainous is scum sided, so giving town some power evens that up, but I'm not sure that mafia ascetic compensated for the amount of power town had here.

[Zdenek]

If the game had been drawn out, with conflicting claims and the compulsive vig shoot town, the ascetic being investigated. I think it would have been very different. With the game going so fast, it meant that town had time to trust the claims.

[Zdenek]

Yesterday I was obviously still asleep in the morning, because I should have said 16-3 mountainous is scum sided. Not 16-4, and concluded that this game was balanced.