Mafia 69: noXkill - Game over!

[Sonicpulsar]

Vote: Fernando

He was the last person to join the game.

[Sonicpulsar]

I agree, Karen needs to calm down. She made 3 posts within a time span of 6 minutes. I'd proclaim noobness but she continues to throw out fairly ridiculous arguments and complaints. If she doesn't get into the swing of things fairly quickly, I'll vote for her.

[Sonicpulsar]

Sweet Enola Gay people, take a minute before you click the "submit" button to make sure you've said all you need to say in one post. The double posts within minutes of each other is annoying. Are you trying to pad your post count?

Anyways, the evidence against Karen doesn't seem to amount to much. As I've said in previous games, so often players like Karen tend to be one of two things: 1. scum 2. crappy town. Neither of these is good for the town. I mean, who votes for him/herself? Basically, just crappy town or scum.

I know this will come off as scummy, but it wouldn't bother me overly much to lose Karen on Day 1, even if she is town. I'm doubting she'll contribute much to this game based on the way she's played thus far. I'd much rather lose her than another townie and there's a fair chance she's scum. But take note, I haven't voted for her yet. I'm hoping to glean some more information from this day before a quicklynch happens. Personally, I'd like to see her replaced.

[Sonicpulsar]

Tomorrow, while I'm bored teaching a lab (I'm a TA), I'll try and make a list of scumminess (aka The List). At this point, it'll probably be rather dull, but I should be able to put people toward ends of the spectrum with most occupying the middle ground.

And, as Fernando pointed out, we're well past the random phase so I'll

Unvote Fernando

.

I'm keeping my

FOS Karen

up. She needs to pull it together and quit making a noob of herself. As I said before, scum or not, I doubt she's gonna help the town much. I'd just as soon see her replaced, but she has to learn at some point I suppose.

[Sonicpulsar]

So wow, The List is considerably harder to formulate this early in the game with this many people. Let me first of all state that we have several lurkers. Yogurt, Twomz, Tar (I know he replaced but still little from him), Blight, and Honary just to name the obvious ones. I don't think YogurtBandit has posted yet. I just got done with a game with him where he lurked the entire game and survived because of it.

Can we get a replacement for him? Or at least a prod?

Anyways, I'll not really include the lurkers in this list until we get closer to the deadline. If some of them keep up at the rate they're going, I'll cast my vote for one of them.

Stolen from another thread (my post):

It's my opinion that people tend to do the following:

Scum/Power Roles: More inclined to lurk. They don't want to put themselves out there too much for fear of screwing up or saying something stupid. Thus, when given a situation where they don't feel like they can contribute much to the game (the last few posts), they'll tend to lurk rather than post. There's always the classic Lurking in Plain Sight as well. But I tend to find those players just annoying.

Vanilla: More likely to need a replacement. For whatever reason, people don't like to play vanilla. I find it the most entertaining (read: challenging) simply because you don't have any gadgets at your disposal. They're also more likely to be the "strong townies" simply because they tend to feel they have less to lose for the town if they screw up.

Now, I absolutely realize everyone and their sister can think up 50 people who these don't fit, no matter the circumstances, but I'm talking about generalities and tendencies.

/soapbox

Now, on to the list. With this many people, I'm just going to analyze the ends of the spectrum.

Starting with scummiest:

1. Karen. I hate to say it, but at this point, she's proclaimed how she's not a noob and what she's doing is on purpose. I just don't see it. I'll say it again, she's either crappy town or scum (crappy scum at that). A crappy townie can be very detrimental to the town late game. I think this is where Cephrir made the comment about being surprised she hasn't been lynched. She's not someone we want to take to the late game with us.

2. Dybeck. He's been trying to get everyone off her back repeatedly and vehemently. I'm all for trying to logically convince people why someone is a stupid lynch but he's been going the route of "analyze it yourself and you'll come to same conclusion." That's really scummy in my opinion. Why you might ask? He's asking others to do the logical reasoning for him and basically setting them up for "if you don't agree with me, you're dumb." I challenge you to concisely state why it's such a bad idea to lynch her.

3. Kison. He jumped all over Cephrir for pointing out the exact same thing I stated way back when. He didn't even comment on my post. It seems scummy to me. Karen isn't a frustrated townie. She's frustrating to play with but I don't think her posts stem from frustration.

4-17 So many lurkers and people contributing little to the game despite posting makes this area fairly unimportant at the moment.

18. Davidangelsummers. He's done a good job of pointing out other people's logical fallacies, etc. I'm getting a very good townie vibe from him.

19. Curiouskarmadog. I don't necessarily agree with a lot of your posts but you seem to be genuinely scum hunting and remaining somewhat logical.

Conclusions: The people I placed at the ends of the specturm also happen to be the people posting the most. This is intentional. I'm definitely aware of the lurkers and LIPers.

Vote: Karen

Perhaps it's all party of her game play to be the object of everyone's attention or to make the town feel stupid when she dies, but I don't she's gonna help us this game. I highly doubt she'll get night killed simply because she won't contribute to the town (good for the mafia) or because she's scum.

I think it should be re-emphasized that the werewolves and mafia are really gunning for the other side to get lynched (since that's the only way the sides can "attack" each other). I doubt at this point if they really care as much about townie's getting lynched as they do about the other side getting lynched. Keep this in mind.

I'll give this post a reread tonight since I wrote it over a 4 hour period (having to come back to it every few minutes due to students asking questions....lousy students...) to check for inconsistencies or lack of clarity.

[Sonicpulsar]

I don't think you're getting the fact that it's a gamble at least a few of us are willing to take that she's scum. Objectively, she might not be my scummiest player (she'd still be in the top 3) but coupled with the fact that she's sucking as a townie, even if that's what she is, makes me want to lynch her over some of the other scummy people.

In other words, I tend to weigh scumminess AND contribution to the game to determine who to vote for. This is why I try to call out lurkers for lurking.

[Sonicpulsar]

At no point did I ever get the impression Karen was claiming power role. Did I miss a post or misread a statement?

[Sonicpulsar]

I understand why you think i have Karen's back. I am not defending her craziness, I am attacking the weak reasoned bandwagon. Also, I agree, I would like to see Karen replaced....but given her attitude and cockiness, I doubt that she will want to, just out of spite.

I agree with Zoneace's assessment. You're clearly not really reading his posts or anyone else's that's says the same thing (my posts specifically). I think I can safely say we all think there's a good chance Karen is scum. Couple this with the fact that she's crappy town and you have an obvious choice to lynch. Few of us have claimed that "we're sure Karen is scum". We're not effin sure. But she's acted like scum and even if she's not, she's not gonna do the town much good. We (I) can't say it any clearer than that.

I'll go ahead and say it right now, KarmaDog's stock is worth about as much as Dybeck's for me now.

FOS CuriousKarmaDog

Karma, your illogical (yep, I said it) arguments continue to astound me when you say you think one of the mafia groups will NK Karen. They have absolutely no reason to. I sincerely hope the mafia guys are dumb enough to read this and it change their minds if they were going to lynch Karen because it means we'll probably have an easier game (because they're dumb). There's absolutely no reason for the mafia groups to NK a crappy townie.

From my experience (somewhat limited), mafia will tend to target the strong townie or who they think are the power roles. This early in the game, the best anyone can guess when it comes to power roles is MY assertion that power roles tend to lurk (as well as scum). Since the scum know each other (but in this game it's fun because they don't know the other group), they know when one of their own is lurking versus a possible power role lurking.

But this is all fairly moot because there's two groups. Obviously, each group can only kill the other via lynches. So, we'll have to look closely at any cross voting later in the game as each side gains more knowledge on the other side.

For now, I think Karen is our best lynch.

[Sonicpulsar]

Sweet Enola Gay, we lost a wolfsbane, whatever that is. I'm assuming it would have helped us eliminate the werewolves. So, we're off to a rocky start.

I don't understand why Theo was killed. I must admit, I thought his hammering was quite scummy. I was fully prepared to put him toward the top of my scum list based purely on this day 1 actions, particularly that hammer with the lame excuse. Guess I'll have to go back and reread some of his earlier posts and find a connection to his death by the werewolves.

I'd like to go ahead and say "I told you so" when it came to UltimaAvalon. He blatantly admitted to lurking and we now know he was a power role. It just seems more often than not that the lurkers are the town power roles or are scum. I'm guessing him was wacked based on this.

[Sonicpulsar]

Whoops, I didn't read the flavor text on the night kill.

I disagree with Zoneace and, amazingly, agree with Dybeck. Karen simply was too much of an asset to "the other side". In other words, the Wolves possibly suspected she was mafia and voted for her and vice versa. So I'm guessing there were a fair number of scum on her. My personal opinion is somewhere around 2-3 but that really is a guess, don't read a lot into it.

I hate to say it because it always seems lazy, but I'll wait for more people (read: lurkers) to post before I say much else.

[Sonicpulsar]

Blight, considering there has been a lynch and 2 NKs, perhaps it'd be prudent to actually explain your vote and FOS.

[Sonicpulsar]

man, you are a joke....wonder if my vote placement has anything to do with your scum hunting?

funny, so far your scumhunting has produced a townie..good job..now you are barking up my tree because I was opposed to the easiest lynch Day 1 and wanted to town to actually have some conversation and discussion...yeah, you are some scum hunter buddy.so again, what have you done for this town?

I realize that the question wasn't directed towards me, I was answering anyway. Your points are being ignored because they are illogical.

Maybe if you listened to my point day 1, we could have avoided lynching a townie…or maybe your goal in the game is to eliminate townies, because so far you have done exactly nothing protown.

Yes. Obviously. Because I totally wasn't right that Karen had to be lynched eventually. And I absolutely have done nothing protown. Other than, y'know, scumhunting. Which isn't important or anything.

At the moment, actually, I have found scum in at least one of you/dybeck.

No, actually, I'm pretty sure it has more to do with your actions yesterday and the fact that you are scummy.

what were my actions, how am I scummy

Pyramid!

Actual content will come tomorrow morning. Right now, my primary analysis will be on Cephrir and Green Day.

[Sonicpulsar]

I'll be gone from now until Saturday afternoon. I'll make my decision on who to vote for when I get back.

[Sonicpulsar]

I'm not entirely convinced Cephrir will post much content any time soon. I think we've seen most of what we're going to see out of him. Already a lot of what he says is in response to what someone has specifically asked of him. There doesn't tend to be a lot of originality with him, but that's as much a gut feeling of him as an analytic one.

I'm still not sure who to vote for. I see several people as scummy, I'm just not sure who's the scummiest. I need to go back and reread Green Day's contribution to the game thus far.

[Sonicpulsar]

I don't understand the two people voting for Dybeck at this point. I'm not getting any scummy vibes off of him short of his Day 1 play, which seems to be fairly moot at this point. He does seem to be lurking a bit (his last post was the 20th if I didn't miss one).

Killerbob beat me to the punch of putting Cephrir at -2. I'm not convinced Cephrir is scum yet, but I detest his scumhunting tactics/style (or lack thereof).

Something we haven't spent much time on is discussing why Theo was killed by the wolves considering he was awfully scummy on the previous day. As I was reading:

^^ Good point. Why would the wolves have killed theopor_COD? It keeps confusing me... He lynched Karen with no reason. Putting it straight into night. This is scummy, which scum want. Why would scum kill him? Can someone please try and explain to me why someone would do this.

It finally occured to me that I may have been thinking wrong. Theo would have been an obvious target for the lynch today (Day 2) if he'd have been left alive. This is bad for the wolves AND for the mafia. Both sides want the other side lynched during the day. It's in their best interests to kill off the scummy players unless they legitimately think their NK choice is the other side. Just something to think about.

Moving on, I'm not getting much from Green Day. I went thru the last 5 pages and didn't see much there. This means that the two people who are being wagoned at the moment haven't posted much content in the last several pages.

[Sonicpulsar]

Killerbob beat me to the punch of putting Cephrir at -2. I'm not convinced Cephrir is scum yet, but I detest his scumhunting tactics/style (or lack thereof).

by my count cephirr has 4 votes, putting him at -5.

Whoops, the 5 key is above my 2 key.

[Sonicpulsar]

I wanted to apply pressure but I didn't want to put him past the "half-way" mark. Given the number of scum/wolves, I'm wary of getting people too high too quickly.

[Sonicpulsar]

A stretch? Of what, the truth? What possible reason could I have short of the one I've supplied? Let it go.

[Sonicpulsar]

Green, your posts on this page is one of the primary reasons people are voting for you. You refuse to post any sort of content. How about you actually try to analyze some people or refute others' arguments.

Obviously enough, I'm suspect of Green Day.

I haven't cared for Cephrir's contribution to the game. I'm not entirely sure I'm ready to vote for him, but there are two people I consider scummier (Green Day and Tarhalindur).

Tarhalindur has contribued so very little to this game, it's pissing me off. How he continues to skate by amazes me. He's made like 30 posts in other threads since his last post which was just promising a post. He refuses to contribute to this game. I'd like to see him replaced.

[Sonicpulsar]

So the two current wagons are Cephrir and Greenday? I did vote for Cephrir last game day because his activities seemed suspicious but i have grown less susiciois,however could someone explain their arguments on each of the wagon, and against as well?
Ty

Can we get a replacement for this guy? He's posting in other threads, just not ours. Interestingly enough, his latest post (in another game) was voting for Fernando (who was replaced in this game) for inactivity. Pot, meet kettle.

Green Day, mind trying to defend yourself or explain why someone else is scummier? We're not getting much from despite the fact you were at -2.

[Sonicpulsar]

Content will be incoming tomorrow morning. Sorry for my lack of posting.

[Sonicpulsar]

As promised. Queue broken record: When is Green Day gonna attempt to defend himself? His last post was on Sept 26th. Considering the circumstances, this is fairly unacceptable. The last time he posted anything of any real content was post 360 on Sept 20th. Wow.

I was a big supporter of the Karen wagon and I have to agree with Blight's above post that at this point, Green Day actually seems scummier in some ways. I'm not overly convinced he's scum but I am thinking he may be our best play for today. In other words, I won't place a vote on him right now because I don't want a quick lynch without giving him a chance to defend himself.

[Sonicpulsar]

Dybeck and CKD are ignoring the obvious WIFOM setup by their claims that anyone on the Karen wagon is suspect. Karen was a crappy player and most everyone can (or maybe should) agree that she was detrimental to the town in the long run. The two mafia groups realize this too. Couple this with the fact that each mafia group could have easily believed she was on the other side and you're left with little real info on the people on her wagon.

I'd be more likely to believe that most of the people on her were probably other townies trying to get rid of a crappy town player. It'd be in the interest of the mafias to keep her around to suck the life out of the game and distract the town. But yet again, they'd each realize this and we're into WIFOM territory again.

Conclusion: Karen's lynch was necessary. The chance that she was a mafia member was just too great when coupled with the fact she was a crappy townie if not scum. I find it amazing anyone can argue the point.

[Sonicpulsar]

the wagon made sense if you were simple minded or mafia.

[Sonicpulsar]

Why does it seem like the primary targets of wagons tend to either be people who post way, way too much or people who don't post much at all?

Supposedly we'll hear from Cephrir today (happy scum day by the way). I look forward to it.

[Sonicpulsar]

I got nothing. The most prominent wagon at the moment is for a guy who's made so few posts. I mean, look at all of Green Day's posts. 90% of them are 1-2 liners. If we lynch him, it'll be because he was lurking/contributing very little.

At least Cephrir is trying to defend himself and participate in the game, even if he's doing it in a scummy way.

Vote: Thron

He either needs to post or we get rid of him. Bah, this feels worse than the Karen wagon, but this game is dragging.

[Sonicpulsar]

Apparently I can't type and reread.

Vote: Thorn

[Sonicpulsar]

I'm here. I'll give the last two pages a read once I have some free time. I was at an ultimate frisbee tournament in Champaign, IL all weekend. Damn I'm tired. We got 3rd place out of 24 teams though!

[Sonicpulsar]

So yeah, I'm very busy. If I haven't made a contribution to the game by Sunday night, I'm gonna ask for a replacement.

[Sonicpulsar]

As someone who took a break from the game (due to being very busy), I must say Peers was a most excellent replacement for me. He did a very unique and interesting job. I probably enjoyed reading this game more(having some inside knowledge, but not ALL knowledge helped) than any other game on the website. Nicely played everyone.

DR, nicely run.

[Sonicpulsar]

I can tell you right now, there's basically a zero percent chance I would have openly admitted to being mafia. Mind you, I love how it played out, I just never would have done it. Upon seeing the results, I must admit I'm a bit more open-minded now. Good stuff.