Mafia 126 - Lovers Mafia! [Game Over]


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Post Post #2950 (ISO) » Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:57 pm

Post by LlamaFluff »

GreyICE wrote:
LlamaFluff wrote:I played shitty, but dram was still very obviously scum that game (along with PO town, and Ice town, and PZ town). I just knew that no one would listen to me unless I lynched his partner first. Also completely called Fate scum in QT from his first post which was horribad. Another one of those things though that no one would listen to due to all the yelling, which I am coming closer and closer to policy lynching due to the amount of damage they do.
My lord, make the damn case instead of sitting there and poking obvtown marble and obvtown ashblade.
Well I tried at first, but everyone shot it down so I went looking for the partner. When just about everyone, including your lover, shuts down your case you look for other things. Also apathy, I shouldnt have replaced into this game.

Might make my MD post about why rage posting is amazingly anti-town and should be policy lynched after this game. Fun fact, I read maybe 10% of posts that people post in caps or "rage" style.
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Post Post #2951 (ISO) » Sun Apr 24, 2011 8:58 pm

Post by GreyICE »

That would explain why you were poking Llamarble and Ashblade :P
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Post Post #2952 (ISO) » Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:02 pm

Post by LlamaFluff »

Well no one else worked. You were town, PZ was town by default of not working with anyone, Emp was hard to pair with anyone remaining save just you, Reck was probably town. That pair worked perfectly with dram-scum, which was why I was refusing to compramise on it, I was intentionally lynching who I thought was scum with the person no one would lynch.
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Post Post #2953 (ISO) » Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:03 pm

Post by EmpTyger »

Well done, werewolves. Thanks all and mod for the game.

Sorry town for D7. Real-life picked a devil of a time to swallow me up. Every time I caught a breath, something else fell on me. I never got more than 4 pages into a read. I was trying to be complete, but in retrospect, should probably should have just made a case on Reckoner so that it would have been out there. My twilight post was obviously not enough.



Reckoner:
xRECKONERx wrote:Also, the fact that NOBODY suspected Me/mastin + Fate/Dram today or yesterday is hilarious.
...Almost nobody:
EmpTyger wrote:
Lynch Reckoner tomorrow.

That will buy you 2 days to find his partners. I'm thinking GreyIce and dramonic should do it.
Of course, thanks to are-you-sure-you-didn't-get-a-traitor-role-PM GreyIce, it was too late for the town.

But you did such a great job discrediting me that, ironically, I think that it was for the best I died before lynch-or-lose. In any case, I was in no shape to fight you D7, and kind of got what I deserved. Considering I couldn't ever even convince Hiraki when he knew my alignment...

And, how many times did you lie, misrepresent, spout utter nonsense, outright hinder the town... and then talk yourself out of it to the point where so many people declared you town?


GreyIce:
The number of times I had to stop in my logical tracks because "well, that can't be, because there are only 4 werewolves"... ugh. Until postgame I seriously couldn't tell which of dramonic and you were Reckoner's partner. I mean, I understand a bad read: I cleared Kcda. But that was because I saw an easylynch being pushed by guilties. Whereas, you were loudly declaring Reckoner innocent for doing things that a guilty player would do and would *want* to do. I'm still baffled.


Kise:
Then again, you did the same thing. And you even called out how Reckoner was lying D1! What was with that D1, with your recanting? That gave me enough pause to let up on Reckoner, and made me question you as much as him.


LlamaF:
I could see dramonic innocent and Reckoner guilty. But I couldn't see dramonic guilty and Reckoner innocent. That's why I didn't support a dramonicwagon. To a lesser degree, I probably should have minded the gamestate and kept you alive, but your minor slips and Kise's major ones made me support your lynch. Plus if Reckoner were innocent, you and Kise pretty much had to be guilty- there just weren't any other pairs.

As for "rage-posting"- yeah, that cost the town. I was trying to fight it D2, but after Kcda easylynch wound up being on target, I hesitated, and then silavor and Espeonage stumbled into mislynches and their weren't really enough townspeople left to fight it.

Also, for the record, why did you think a loverclaim bad in this setup?


silavor/Charlie:
Ugh. A lot of almosts here. If I hadn't been so wrong about Kcda- that shook me into reevaluating every single thing. But, I'm not apologizing- you both said the absolute wrong things at the wrong times, and didn't stick around to defend yourselves. If you had held on a little longer, vezok might have succumbed first. It would have been good to have had you and around, to say nothing of the extra day.


PO/Espeonage:
This one I will apologize for. Yours was a horrid, horrid mislynch, and I'm sorry I didn't brake it stronger at the end. Regardless of your alignment, you would have been better to have around than any number of alternatives, and I trusted my partner instead of looking closely at who you could even be paired with. Worst of all, I didn't consider the bigger picture of what the gamestate would be after your lynch. Plus my still being a little shaky after the Kcda mess, and a lingering misread on you from earlier in the game caused me to discount a solid protown read that I picked up. Sorry.


Hiraki:
D5 I trusted you too much with Espeonage/PO, and didn't communicate my doubts.
D6 You trusted me too much with Kise/LlamaF, and didn't communicate your doubts.
D7 neither of us communicated at all. And I don't fault the town for lynching us for it.
So, both of our faults. But the moral of the story? Communication is necessary. The playstyle you prefer- it's what the werewolves did to win, and the townspeople who used it played into their hands.


Llamarble/Ashblade:
Weird question, but: One of the reasons why I was trying to reread D7 was because at some point I had some reason why you couldn't be werewolf with dramonic. I couldn't remember it though, and wanted to check that it was actually there. Um, you don't happen to know what it was?


DH:
I don't blame you too much- knowing GreyIce is innocent and replacing in late makes it really hard to discount his version of events.


Kcda:
Not kidding. I don't remember ever having a worse false negative before; and that's even with this being a known multifaction game.


Yaw:
Thanks for stepping in. Only quibble is that you should have sooner, if the mod's access is that atrocious.
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Post Post #2954 (ISO) » Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:13 pm

Post by LlamaFluff »

EmpTyger wrote:Also, for the record, why did you think a loverclaim bad in this setup?
It allows for more natural attacks and defenses. In this game, whether you like it or not knowing whos partnered to who will create bias in the read of the second person. A perfect example of how that could have changed the game is the reck/NC slot. If people were willing to scrutinize NC more, it could have changed the direction of the early game instead of simply giving the player a pass.

Having nothing be off limits allows for town to scumhunt without the bias an misconceptions that this type of game will naturally create. Any time that those things come into play, scum who know what to do can just feed off it indefinantly and protect/push of people that would not normally be up. This is one of those odd situations (like polygamist, just less so) where the less information the town knows, the better.

Also how did NO ONE go back and do vote count analysis? Seriously?

Im thinking next game I get into with "rage posting" I am going to push for a policy lynch. Its really got to such a point where its destroying the fun of the game while hurting the town. People who do it (Im looking at you Fate) need to realize it makes the game miserable for a majority of the people, and eventually I know I just end up not reading anything you post.
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Post Post #2955 (ISO) » Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:13 pm

Post by Llamarble »

Bah, well played scum. I guess I mixed up townalliance #2 with the scumalliance.
I was kind of hoping for some unvotes and rethinkings and getting to be confirmed town for awhile, hehe.
That Reck/Fate yelling match a couple days ago had me kind of suspicious of the pairing,
and Reck was being outright unreasonable today, but I don't know who I ultimately would have picked given lynch-control.

Kise was the flip that really really surprised me. I was very convinced they were scum.

I think raging is usually just plain effective for the rager rather than pro-town or pro-scum. See multiple personality mafia for town raging.
Basically if you decide who town lynches, you are helping your faction, and raging often helps achieve that.

As for D7, I really cared about lynching you over PZ/Tragedy, which Dram and I wouldn't have, though I don't know if that's what you're specifically talking about.
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Post Post #2956 (ISO) » Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:15 pm

Post by GreyICE »

LlamaFluff wrote:
EmpTyger wrote:Also, for the record, why did you think a loverclaim bad in this setup?
It allows for more natural attacks and defenses. In this game, whether you like it or not knowing whos partnered to who will create bias in the read of the second person. A perfect example of how that could have changed the game is the reck/NC slot. If people were willing to scrutinize NC more, it could have changed the direction of the early game instead of simply giving the player a pass.

Having nothing be off limits allows for town to scumhunt without the bias an misconceptions that this type of game will naturally create. Any time that those things come into play, scum who know what to do can just feed off it indefinantly and protect/push of people that would not normally be up. This is one of those odd situations (like polygamist, just less so) where the less information the town knows, the better.

Also how did NO ONE go back and do
vote count
analysis? Seriously?

Im thinking next game I get into with "rage posting" I am going to push for a policy lynch. Its really got to such a point where its destroying the fun of the game while hurting the town. People who do it (Im looking at you Fate) need to realize it makes the game miserable for a majority of the people, and eventually I know I just end up not reading anything you post.
Vote counts?
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Post Post #2957 (ISO) » Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:17 pm

Post by DemonHybrid »

Vote counts coming from two different mods crushed my will to do VCA rather quickly.
This account is no longer being used.

You want this one.
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Post Post #2958 (ISO) » Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:22 pm

Post by LlamaFluff »

GreyICE wrote: Vote counts?
End of day at least. Those pointed to at least one, probably two of reck/dram/PZ.
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Post Post #2959 (ISO) » Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:23 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

EmpTyger wrote:But you did such a great job discrediting me that, ironically, I think that it was for the best I died before lynch-or-lose. In any case, I was in no shape to fight you D7, and kind of got what I deserved. Considering I couldn't ever even convince Hiraki when he knew my alignment...

And, how many times did you lie, misrepresent, spout utter nonsense, outright hinder the town... and then talk yourself out of it to the point where so many people declared you town?
I knew there was no way I'd survive lylo if you and Zito were both alive, but I never thought I'd be able to push a lynch through on BOTH of you.

Also of note is that I helped to lynch plenty of people who thought I was town.
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Post Post #2960 (ISO) » Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:52 pm

Post by Kise »

No complaints. Well deserved victory. I was fixated on my own townread of dram to change my mind about his pair. The only times I had a feeling were werewolf55's nag about it taking months when, for the town, it would only take 2 lynches to defeat scum, and Reck making it a point at the beginning of the game to show he was "clueless" about no night phases. But by day 3, I was gunning for others. I told LF it may be reck & grey, but never had dramscum on the mind. HE did however. :-{........ sup PO, Espy?
They have escaped into the mansion where they thought it was safe.

Yet…
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Post Post #2961 (ISO) » Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:54 pm

Post by Kise »

But don't retire, Reck.
They have escaped into the mansion where they thought it was safe.

Yet…
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Post Post #2962 (ISO) » Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:59 pm

Post by EmpTyger »

Re raging:
Raging is essentially an extreme form of tunneling, but with the added detriment of hindering the town's main weapon: the ability to discuss. But I think if you're looking to policy lynch, stick with the basics: Liars and lurkers, in that order. Would've worked this game.


Re votecounts:
Espeonage/PO did have some pretty sophisticated votecounts, but the mafia lynches muddled things D2 and D4, and silavor's lynch D3 wasn't really analyzable. I think Hiraki looked into votecounts also at some point. (Maybe? He talked about "votals" a lot, but I never quite understood what he meant by that term.)

The big thing though was that the lover mechanic distorted voting by essentially doubling the playercount, but the doubling doesn't translate into bandwagons. I looked myself into votecounts a couple times, but there just wasn't anything too discernable. (The original mod's nonsensical deadline policy didn't help the voting process, either.)


LlamaF:
But, let's say Nero does get scrutinized, gets run up, and claims his lover- then it devolves into the claimed scenario. Only, the lack of information makes it easier for antitowns to prevent themselves from being run up in the first place. The problem wasn't that people weren't scrutizing Nero enough it's that they weren't scrutinizing *Reckoner* enough. Even without antitown interference, it's logistically a lot harder to track 22 than it is to track 11.

It's certainly a moot point, but, I still maintain that revealing this information helps the town in discussing the matter. If town can't eliminate their biases, they're going to lose anyhow.
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Post Post #2963 (ISO) » Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:12 pm

Post by LlamaFluff »

EmpTyger wrote:Re raging:
Raging is essentially an extreme form of tunneling, but with the added detriment of hindering the town's main weapon: the ability to discuss. But I think if you're looking to policy lynch, stick with the basics: Liars and lurkers, in that order. Would've worked this game.
I already have a list of policy lynches I somewhat adhere to, mostly chronic anti-town and flakers.
LlamaF:
But, let's say Nero does get scrutinized, gets run up, and claims his lover- then it devolves into the claimed scenario. Only, the lack of information makes it easier for antitowns to prevent themselves from being run up in the first place. The problem wasn't that people weren't scrutizing Nero enough it's that they weren't scrutinizing *Reckoner* enough. Even without antitown interference, it's logistically a lot harder to track 22 than it is to track 11.
It also allows for scum to defend eachother easier. Lets say we never claimed and got later in the game without it and decided to run up NC, we actually are going to get pressure on that spot because scum OR town cant just say "pfft oh he is Reck partner so he is town". We always are going to have bias against people, you start forming them the instant you read a post, and no one can legitimately tell you that a couple posts from everyone into the game you have SOME sort of guess on what someone is that is more then the antitown/town equation.

I just think lover games with the claim give scum a new level of being able to defend, attack and manipulate. How much did you hear wolf mentioned in this game? How much did he post? Now who was his partner and what was the general when someone called him scum? Same with NC. The more information in this setup, the easier it is for scum to attack town, defend eachother and just control the game.

Lack of pairings may make it initally harder, but there will be more late in the game for town to look at I believe. Not sure we ever have had on of these games not degrade into massclaim though so there isnt anything to base it off.
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Post Post #2964 (ISO) » Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:26 pm

Post by xRECKONERx »

Kise wrote:No complaints. Well deserved victory. I was fixated on my own townread of dram to change my mind about his pair. The only times I had a feeling were werewolf55's nag about it taking months when, for the town, it would only take 2 lynches to defeat scum, and Reck making it a point at the beginning of the game to show he was "clueless" about no night phases. But by day 3, I was gunning for others. I told LF it may be reck & grey, but never had dramscum on the mind. HE did however. :-{........ sup PO, Espy?
Actually, I didn't "pretend" to be clueless about the night phases. I just hadn't read my role PM thoroughly enough yet. And that whole AIM convo thing? I never lied - that seriously never happened.
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Post Post #2965 (ISO) » Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:33 pm

Post by silavor »

Oh wow were my reads awful. ;_;

The one person I honestly believed to be town, right from day one, ends up being the guy single-handedly leading the werewolves to victory.
Emp, having me around simply would have had Tragedy and Kise mislynched faster, because I was
so
sure it was tragedy, and fairly certain it was kise up until he was lynched. But for the record, me accidentally saying Babyspice instead of haylen was a total accident. I didn't even know I had gotten their names mixed up until someone pointed it out. So yeah, communication with your partner in a game like this is crucial, if only so you don't get their name mixed up with someone else's.
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Post Post #2966 (ISO) » Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:24 am

Post by Tragedy »

I kind of felt a bit pissed here. I mean, GreyICE just suddenly made them town all of the sudden. -_-..
I blame you for this.
For I have been awaiting for another heart pounding segment of
Dokidoki Precure!


[10/15/2013 - 00:13] -
Tragedy
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Post Post #2967 (ISO) » Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:29 am

Post by Papa Zito »

sigh
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Post Post #2968 (ISO) » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:46 am

Post by silavor »

Tragedy wrote:I kind of felt a bit pissed here. I mean, GreyICE just suddenly made them town all of the sudden. -_-..
Made who town? He's been saying reck and dram were town since day one...
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Post Post #2969 (ISO) » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:47 am

Post by Tragedy »

silavor wrote:
Tragedy wrote:I kind of felt a bit pissed here. I mean, GreyICE just suddenly made them town all of the sudden. -_-..
Made who town? He's been saying reck and dram were town since day one...
That was the point. :P
I blame you for this.
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Post Post #2970 (ISO) » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:53 am

Post by silavor »

...I have this vague feeling there's some sarcasm I'm just not detecting.
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Post Post #2971 (ISO) » Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:54 am

Post by Hiraki »

silavor wrote:...I have this vague feeling there's some sarcasm I'm just not detecting.
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Post Post #2972 (ISO) » Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:24 am

Post by Yaw »

EmpTyger wrote:Yaw:
Thanks for stepping in. Only quibble is that you should have sooner, if the mod's access is that atrocious.
You're welcome. For the record, I agree. It was very tempting to go, "Well, my access problems got cleared up in a day, so there isn't much point in taking over if these problems will be fixed tomorrow..." In the future, I intend to work out a list of conditions under which I take over modding right at the beginning of the game, so this kind of situation won't come up. I'd recommend all backup mods do the same.

As for rageposting, I'd agree with EmpTyger and LlamaFluff here. I usually enjoy reading the games I mod and backup mod, but I just couldn't bring myself to read pages upon pages of capslockrage. So I apologize for the amount of skimming I was doing there. Seriously, it's a very anti-social tactic in a social game, which when combined with spamming tended to get other players to shut down. I would prefer to see players post in proper English, and not use 5 posts in a row where one will do. Also, there's something fundamentally wrong with your tactic if it makes your lynch advantageous to the town no matter what your alignment might be (if you're scum, they lynched scum, and if you're town, they never have to read anything you wrote ever again). It certainly can work if the town isn't willing to take action, but this game might be an object lesson that action needs to be taken.
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Post Post #2973 (ISO) » Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:33 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

I disagree.
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Post Post #2974 (ISO) » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:04 am

Post by Fate »

^
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