NY136: The Death of ReaperCharlie (GAME OVER, Town win!)


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Post Post #1875 (ISO) » Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:03 am

Post by Iecerint »

I think I could've reached a surer decision faster if I'd been more knowledgeable about Normal game norms. For example, when Yos-CTD argued about the plausibility of a Godfather re: gunsmith immunity, I interpreted Yos's claim of impossibility as a scummy "assumption" on Yos's part, because I'm so used to Theme games. Someone more used to Normal norms would probably have seen it as legitimate information.
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Post Post #1876 (ISO) » Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:17 am

Post by Meransiel »

Shocking.
Great job though.
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Post Post #1877 (ISO) » Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:53 am

Post by Hrezs »

gj town

sorry to amrun/everyone for flaking, I had no drive to actually participate in any of my games at the time (wasn't because I was scum)

CTD did amazing though from what I can tell (only read lylo)
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Post Post #1878 (ISO) » Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:05 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

Oh, thank god.

Whew. Can't believe we pulled that off, despite having multiple confirmed townies and even PJ tunneling on me all freaking game.

I think this is the one of the best voting records I've ever had, heh. Only time I was wrong was on day 1.

Anyway, good game, everyone.
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
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Post Post #1879 (ISO) » Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:05 am

Post by CrashTextDummie »

I'm heartbroken that we lost this game, but only because I've enjoyed it tremendously. Huge roller-coaster all the way.

Hat's off to Yos who really did play a great game for the town, his reads were spot-on for the most part and I think they had to be for him to win it in the end. I really enjoyed sparring against him for the better part of a month and I'm proud I managed to make it that hard of a decision for Iece and Toasty. Congratulations to them as well, I don't think this was the easiest endgame decision ever.

Being scum with MBL is one item crossed off my mafiascum bucket list, and he was every bit as fun to scheme with as I'd hoped. The doc counter claim was as much his as it was mine. Ludi was an exemplary scum buddy as well, he played a damn good day game along with Thor in my humble estimation and was a valuable and pleasant presence in the scum QT as well. I'm sorry he didn't get to play some of the gambits he wanted, and I'm even more sorry I couldn't do more to avoid his lynch. This was the most rewarding and spirited scum team I've ever had the pleasure to play with, and for that I am very thankful.

My thanks also go to Amrun, who did a great job modding this game and always felt on top of things. I particularly enjoyed her flavor texts! I may have something to say about the balance of this game, but that's for after I've cried myself to sleep. ;)

PS: Someone should have warned me not to read the dead QT.
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Post Post #1880 (ISO) » Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:07 am

Post by CrashTextDummie »

I imagine this is as much of a load off your shoulders as it is for me, eh Yos? ;)

Congrats again, very well done!
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Post Post #1881 (ISO) » Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:09 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

In post 1875, Iecerint wrote:I think I could've reached a surer decision faster if I'd been more knowledgeable about Normal game norms. For example, when Yos-CTD argued about the plausibility of a Godfather re: gunsmith immunity, I interpreted Yos's claim of impossibility as a scummy "assumption" on Yos's part, because I'm so used to Theme games. Someone more used to Normal norms would probably have seen it as legitimate information.


the normal rules on the wiki wrote:
Roles which are explicitly Normal include:
Vanilla Townie, Sane Cop, Doctor, Vigilante, Roleblocker, Mason, Innocent Child, Jailkeeper, Tracker, Watcher, Gunsmith, Miller, Bodyguard, Role Cop, Doublevoter, Hider, Neighbor, Neighborizer, Jack of All Trades, Serial Killer, Mafia Goon, Mafia Traitor, Mafia Godfather, Mafia Framer, Mafia-aligned versions of above roles
Modifiers which are explicitly Normal include:
Even/Odd Night, Non-Consecutive Night, X-Shot, Bulletproof, Compulsive, Macho, Weak, Backup (with or without primary role present)


https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Normal


"Godfather" is defined on the wiki as being either investigative-immune or nightkill-immune.

There can be a liiitttle wiggle room for mods to come up with some new roles, but for the most part, that's all that you're going to see in normal games. The entire definition of normal has been narrowed so much that it's to the point where they're basically open games these days.
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
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Post Post #1882 (ISO) » Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:15 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

In post 1880, CrashTextDummie wrote:I imagine this is as much of a load off your shoulders as it is for me, eh Yos? ;)

Congrats again, very well done!


:)

That was an amazing fake-claim, CTD. It even had me fooled for a little while, hehe. In general, the scum team played really, really well this game, and it really felt like an uphill struggle every step of the way.

On the other hand, this was an awesome town (despite the way people kept trying to lynch me :lol: ). It's so damn rare to see town get into a 5 vs 3 endgame and then lynch right 3 times in a row; the odds of pulling that off are (3/8 * 2/6 * 1/4) = about a 3% chance.

I've got to say, stressful as it was, the endgame wasn't the scariest part of the game for me. The absolute scariest part of the game was on day 6, when DH voted for me right at the start of the day, I had a strong suspicion that the scumteam was Hydra and CTD, and we were only one vote away from a town loss. Thank you for being willing to listen to reason and unvote me and vote Hydra instead that day, DH, if you hadn't done that we would have lost the game for certain. I'll admit, I was flailing around pretty desperately to try to get you to unvote me there, hehe.

This game, with DH, Iece, Toasty, ect, is a perfect example of why one of most important pro-town virtues is being willing to change your mind. Thank you for a great game, everyone.
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
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Post Post #1883 (ISO) » Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:23 am

Post by ToastyToast »

CTD, you did a great job. I was torn till the very end

Also, to Yos, I hope I didn't come off as someone who just didn't like you. I just had a hard time getting a read on you this game, partially because your posting style is somewhat hard to read (and as such, being NULL all the time can actually be useful in mafia games).

What made me pick CTD was the fact that my reasons for suspecting Yos were very much subjective. Just because I don't enjoy reading someone's posts doesn't make them scum. Phew.
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Post Post #1884 (ISO) » Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:24 am

Post by Amrun »

In post 1872, Iecerint wrote:CORRECTION TO FIRST PAGE: CTD WAS LYNCHED ON D8.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG.

also huh ss was here?


We never reached day 8. ?


In post 1874, MrBuddyLee wrote:Thanks for the fun, Amrun. You did an amazing job filling the game with quality replacements.

Also, thanks to all the replacements.

Also, poo on earworm for investigating me N1. I spent all of D1 trying to lynch scum!

The game felt a little unbalanced in favor of town, and definitely swingy, but it still ended up being a lot of fun. Parama ended up costing us the game by getting lynched--his lynch cleared two townie neighbors. And there weren't enough vanillas left to throw suspicion upon--despite the fact that scum didn't kill a single vanilla. (1 lynched, 2 vigged, 2 killed by SK.) 5 power roles and 2 confirmed-town neighbors was too much to overcome.

We could have used a rolecop... :D

Yos, Iece and Toasty pulled it out in the end with some reasonable logic/argument. CTD played a valiant endgame, and might have won if he hadn't defended all scum to the death like the best teammate EVER! Much love to my teammates for a game well-played.


In the end, that was how this played out: too many named roles. HOWEVER, one of my hopes for this game really did come true. I wanted scum to realize how many roles there were and think, "How do we combat this?" One of the BEST ways is to fakeclaim a role intelligently, which is what happened.

I wanted town to be skeptical and doubt some of the claims (which is also what happened).


HOWEVER, in hindsight, I would have given scum a rolecop and put in an extra VT or two, and probably take out the innocent child. Rolecop would have been a good aid to scum in this situation.

I also didn't think people would take one-scum-in-the-neighborhood for granted so heavily. Of course, I never wanted to PUT one scum in the neighborhood, but that's how it worked out anyway.

Some of my thoughts on the roles:

There was a lot of town power, but they were meant to foil each other, in certain ways. For example, there were lots of red herrings for the tracker (and indeed, the tracker accidentally outed the vig). The gunsmith had a miller in the vig as well. Some of the power roles could be interrupted by the alien (jailkeeper variant).

I knew that there would be claims going on, so to give scum a way to combat this, I gave them daytalk.


I think, perhaps, in light of this, I should have not put an SK in. The balance was precarious and much of the swing lay in the SK. The way the SK decided to play could change things. If I were to run a similar set up again, I would not put an SK in. SKs are fun, but not quite right for this particular set up.


Feel free to comment/discuss the above and how successful my plans were or were not.
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Post Post #1885 (ISO) » Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:30 am

Post by CrashTextDummie »

Amrun wrote:There was a lot of town power, but they were meant to foil each other, in certain ways.


Bwah, I told you so! But no one listens to the
doc rolecop
scumbag.

I think what bothered me most from a set-up point of view is how much of a burden the scum neighbor turned out to be. Not only did it put the spotlight on one of us immediately, it gave the town two more cleared players after Parama went under.

MBL wrote:CTD played a valiant endgame, and might have won if he hadn't defended all scum to the death like the best teammate EVER!


To the DEATH! :D
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Post Post #1886 (ISO) » Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:57 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

By the way, I really don't think the setup was unbalanced.

Yes, the town had a lot of power, but we needed it; in order to win, we had to lynch scum
5 days in a row.
If we had a little less power on our side, it would have been hopeless.

Yeah, there were a few things that could have gone differently that would have been better for the town (Xantos's slot missing nights, Iece should probably have not made his second kill since that cost us a day, Mastin not tripping up a gambit and outing the innocent child on day 2), but all in all, town pretty much had to use all their resources just in order to make it an even fight.
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
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Post Post #1887 (ISO) » Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:08 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

By the way, the mafia discussion is awesome, everyone should read it.

CrashTextDummie wrote:
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone.


Hahaha
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
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Post Post #1888 (ISO) » Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:09 am

Post by Amrun »

Yeah, the mafia QT was great this game! I really enjoyed following along.
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Post Post #1889 (ISO) » Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:15 am

Post by MrBuddyLee »

In post 1886, Yosarian2 wrote:Yes, the town had a lot of power, but we needed it; in order to win, we had to lynch scum
5 days in a row.
If we had a little less power on our side, it would have been hopeless.

Ways to overcome:
1) vig a scumbag
2) SK kills a scumbag
3) announce your guilty result on a scumbag

Town power roles and the SK targeted 9 players over the course of 8 game days. All 9 were town. :)

Yes, the game was unbalanced. Scum played well and avoided being targeted, otherwise we'd have lost a hell of a lot worse. Regardless, it was still a blast.
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Post Post #1890 (ISO) » Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:16 am

Post by MrBuddyLee »

In post 1889, MrBuddyLee wrote:All 9 were town.

Haha, look at that, I'm still lying to myself about my alignment. Make that "8 of 9 were town".
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Post Post #1891 (ISO) » Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:16 am

Post by ToastyToast »

I wouldn't say it was THAT unbalanced. I mean, our protective power was gone D1. We also didn't have a cop (investigation power was there, but no cop). Also, the neighbors don't have confirmed allignment. If we were MASONS on the other hand...the fact that kondi townslipped made it a little harder on scum.
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Post Post #1892 (ISO) » Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:17 am

Post by MrBuddyLee »

4) Scum appears to have been able to kill the SK--no reference to them being NK-immune
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Post Post #1893 (ISO) » Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:21 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

SK is generally going to shoot confirmed townies, though. The basic formula for winning as a SK is to shoot the confirmed townies at night and try to lynch the scum during the day; SK can't lynch confirmed townies during the day, and absolutely has to get rid of them all ASAP in order to have a chance of winning.

Xantos claiming guilty earlier wouldn't have been much different then what happened (1 scum lynch, cop gets nightkilled by the mafia, basically the same as what happened), other then perhaps him being more likely to be trusted.
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
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Post Post #1894 (ISO) » Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:22 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Pretty sure the only reason scum are complaining about balance is because we lynched Parama instead of the other two Neighbors. This game had 6 vanilla townies and 2 neighbors, which are plenty of fodder for lynching when in this particular variant of the set-up the scum apparently only needed
two
mislynches to win the game.
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Post Post #1895 (ISO) » Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:37 am

Post by Amrun »

I didn't really get any complaints. I just would like to hear thoughts for future set up creations on my part.
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Post Post #1896 (ISO) » Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:41 am

Post by David Xanatos »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but theoretically Town could have lost at the end of D3, correct?
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Post Post #1897 (ISO) » Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:50 am

Post by Amrun »

In post 1896, David Xanatos wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but theoretically Town could have lost at the end of D3, correct?


No, they couldn't.
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Post Post #1898 (ISO) » Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:57 am

Post by David Xanatos »

D1 T lynch = 12
N1 = 3 kills = 9
D2 = 8
N2 = 5
D3 = 4

Ah, yeah, the SK would tip it to at least a N3 loss..
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Post Post #1899 (ISO) » Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:00 pm

Post by Amrun »

It would have to be a really extraordinary circumstance for that to happen, though.
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