Designer Mafia II: Game Over!

[Fuldu]

Interesting, Otaku's killer claiming to be a doc before shooting him. Seems strange.

random vote: Gaspode

[Fuldu]

I don't know, I'm inclined to give DS the benefit of the doubt on that, at least to get a bandwagon rolling this early on. I didn't create any post-restricted roles this time around, but they are a good way of balancing otherwise powerful roles.

unvote: Gaspode; vote: Scott Morgan

[Fuldu]

Well, the role sharing was more of a danger when everyone knew that each individual had exactly one of their roles submitted. If I come out and point to a role that I submitted, that no longer means that none of my other roles were used. And, since there are some people who didn't have any of their roles used, it isn't necessarily to scum's benefit to target people on the basis of who has and has not admitted to submitted roles. I think knowing what the roles do might aid in figuring out what has happened with various actions and players (though maybe not with these two roles), and I especially think that people ought to support role claims as they come up, if they created that role. Since the roles have been modified, it isn't completely useful, but I think it helps enough to make it worthwhile.

[Fuldu]

Dragon Slayer clearly isn't going to say why he voted that way, and he's further gone out of his way to suggest that there's a reason for it. For me, especially on day 1 of a game that is certain to have unusual roles, that is enough to suggest that we should push a bandwagon on Scott to a claim and see where that takes us. If we lynch an innocent, DS knows we'll want to lynch him tomorrow.

As for the "doc-proof killer," I think that's a premature conclusion to draw. The killer was (for whatever reason) pretending to be a doc before he shot Otaku. The quoted portion seems more like flavor to me than a suggestion that if the killer had actually been a doc he wouldn't have been able to do anything about the kill.

[Fuldu]

Vote: Fuldu for threatening the starter of a random day one bandwagon being a bit trigger-happy huh?

huh, where did he do that?

I think he's referring to my pushing on Scott Morgan and then saying that if it turned out badly we'd turn on Dragon Slayer. Now, the whole reason I was doing that was that DS was presenting it as a

non-random

day one bandwagon, which he's now stepped away from. He still seems to have

some

reason for voting Scott Morgan, since he said it wasn't random, but it isn't enough of a reason for him to feel strongly about (note that he's now unvoted). I have a hard time distinguishing exactly what DS has going on that he considers this bandwagon worth doing, but not enough to stake his credibility on. But, since this is Designer Mafia, there could be any number of explanations. I think characterizing what I said as a threat is unfair, since DS was giving the impression of an investigative role and that's a fairly standard response to claims of investigative role that don't turn out well.

[Fuldu]

Sorry, i've been away for a couple of days.

I clearly fail to see why waiting to vote can be any indecation of me being mafia. I just refuse to make a random vote (or any vote at all for that matter) untill i have at least a little bit of a hunch to go on. If you think that makes me a mafia, than go ahead and lynch me.

Not exactly a confidence inspiring response, but it strikes me as more newbieish than scummy. As for me, the reason I was voting you didn't have anything to do with inactivity, it was because DS suggested there was a reason for his vote. Now it's appearing that, whatever it was, it wasn't much of a reason, which was a mistaken conclusion on my part. I don't think it was unreasonable given the crypticism of DS's approach to the situation, but it's clearly unreasonable now.

unvote: Scott Morgan

[Fuldu]

I'm also seeing Lord Fuldi jumping around was a little strange, strange enough to warrant this.

What's that now? You voted for Gurgi, so I assume that's what you meant, but this is just weird.

[Fuldu]

Well, BlueSin, Totem is the only player who hasn't posted. the silent speaker posted longest ago, and shadyforce and Scott Morgan have both only posted twice. Even though I grossly misread Dragon Slayer's reasoning for voting Scott Morgan the first time, both his posts are noncontributive; in fact, providing reasons why he thinks it makes sense not to contribute. So,

vote: Scott Morgan

.

[Fuldu]

This typically happens when there's a call for a replacement. People tend to fade out until the replacement (in this case I know NanookTheWolf has volunteered) posts that they've gotten their role and are read up.

[Fuldu]

Ok first - its spelt Chao
Thank you but let's not hope for the towns sake that I live longer than you did, I still don't trust you for being a scummy liar.

If we're going to be pedantic, it's spelled C-I-A-O. But more importantly, what is that other sentence even talking about? A different game? And are you really saying that it would be good for the town if you didn't live very long? Because that's the only way I can interpret "let's not hope for the towns sake that I live longer than you did." I'm going to assume that's not what you mean and give you another chance to explain what you mean.

[Fuldu]

Wow that stinks.

This is the sort of post Gaspode is talking about, LG. In this case, I can't tell if "that" is the fact that you have three votes, FD's internet connectivity problem, or something else entirely. If it's about the three votes, I'd relax a little; it's presently eight to lynch. If it's about FD's connection problem, it's kind of you to comment on it, but completely game-irrelevent posts are sort of frowned on in the middle of an ongoing game. If it was something else, how could you possibly expect us to intuit what you're talking about?

[Fuldu]

We're not getting anywhere, and the day is starting to stall, so I'm going to

unvote: Scott Morgan; vote: Lord Gurgi

I still feel his posts have been more newbieish than scummy, but I have little else to go on at this point.

[Fuldu]

Whoa, hold on, we're not even going to give him an opportunity to claim? That's a little premature.

unvote: Lord Gurgi

for some breathing room.

[Fuldu]

Gurgi, which did you do last night?

[Fuldu]

No, that's a horrible idea. What if he picks scum?

FOS: Dragon Slayer

for even suggesting it.

[Fuldu]

I don't think we should know who you are putting on your payroll, LG. You should investigate, and if you get an innocent, put that person on your payroll the following day. That way, we'll have a new cop, but the scum won't know who it is. Otherwise, it's a problem of making sure the docs cover both you and the other person without coming out to coordinate.

[Fuldu]

well, i don't agree that it's so terrible to accidently give the investigation power to the scum, they already knew our arragement anyway...So, instead of wasting an investigation before adding people to the list, why don't just add people to the list randomly. imagine scum's face when everyone can investigate at night...LOL.

Oh, that's a different interpretation of the role than I had read. I assumed Gurgi could only put one person on his payroll. If he can do more than one, then we're really just losing time by putting scum on the payroll. Not a good thing, but not nearly as bad as I was suggesting. I doubt FD would make the role such that LG could make a cult of pro-town investigators, all of whom send their results back to LG, though, so I'm going to stick with my initial interpretation that the Master Spy can only hire one assistant. Can we get a clarification, Lord Gurgi?

[Fuldu]

Ummm, Internet Stranger isn't in this game. Based on the Mr., I assume you're thinking of Oval OFfice.

[Fuldu]

I agree, Narninian. Asking for a vote count sounds like a bad use of a limited resource.

vote: Scott Morgan

[Fuldu]

Okay, I didn't want to say it yesterday, in case I was wrong, but after today, I would have even if he wasn't already dead. The Mimic SK was my role. He was able to target one individual in the guise of a second individual. So, Night 1, he probably used the guise of SinisterOverlord and was told (through the daybreak post, as we all were) that SO was a doc. This also tells us that there's a ninja out there, whose guise Shadyforce used last night.

Lord Gurgi, what'd you do last night? Investigate or hire?

[Fuldu]

That's right, silgado106, I made the role that shadyforce was, but because of the way the role worked, we also know that there exists a Ninja role out there. shadyforce knows who it is, but he's not likely to get the opportunity to tell us.

[Fuldu]

BlueSin is talking about the quote TSS posted about BlueSin thinking there had been enough discussion. It's Post 131, for anyone who was looking. I disagree with him that this is an instance where scum has clearly screwed up in targeting him. Frankly, I like to see 10+ page days, as long as conversation doesn't lag. It's when conversation lags that it might become preferable to just lynch somebody rather than wait around for the deadline to force us into action.

The more important issue, to me, is that BlueSin acted on this to try to push through a lynch of Lord Gurgi yesterday, without giving him time to claim. To me, that is recklessly impatient, and might be indicative of scum.

vote: BlueSin

[Fuldu]

To people voting me,
what do you want from me now? ask whatever questions you want and I will try to satisfy your curiousity. I doubted it helps to make you trust me though. Nothing can be explain with the 'one sentence' that started this bandwagon.

I would like an explanation as to why you didn't feel it necessary to give Lord Gurgi an opportunity to claim or even defend himself especially well before putting on the next-to-last vote to lynch yesterday. I find it amusing that I exhibited caution in a bandwagon on an innocent whereas you were rushing to lynch him, and I'm the one who is suspicious.

I will try responding point-by-point to silgado106's post when I have a little more time.

[Fuldu]

Just reread all of the thread... and I have written a bunch of notes on the person I find the most scummy..... after this I will be expecting a lot of discussion hopefully.... I think that

Fuldu = Mafia

Analysis:

DAY 1

I don't know, I'm inclined to give DS the benefit of the doubt on that, at least to get a bandwagon rolling this early on. I didn't create any post-restricted roles this time around, but they are a good way of balancing otherwise powerful roles.

unvote: Gaspode; vote: Scott Morgan

Puts 3rd vote in Scott Morgan bandwagon (scum buddie) but then unvotes (post 65) just because DS unvoted as well. (needed a reason to unvote his scum mate, DS gave it to him)

This is interesting, because originally I was taking flack (and rightly so) for putting the vote on in the first place. I misread DS, assuming he had more information than he did, and removed the vote once that was made clear to me. DS didn't give me a reason to unvote, he (and others) pointed out that I had a stupid reason for voting in the first place.

If I were scum with Scott, I might have tried to distance myself from him, but I wouldn't have called attention to DS's vote and suggested that it was on the basis of a solid reason when nobody else seemed to be paying any attention to it.

Well, BlueSin, Totem is the only player who hasn't posted. the silent speaker posted longest ago, and shadyforce and Scott Morgan have both only posted twice. Even though I grossly misread Dragon Slayer's reasoning for voting Scott Morgan the first time, both his posts are noncontributive; in fact, providing reasons why he thinks it makes sense not to contribute. So, vote: Scott Morgan.

Here he goes back and votes for Scott again (distancing himself from Scott?)

That's a lot of distancing for one day.

We're not getting anywhere, and the day is starting to stall, so I'm going to
unvote: Scott Morgan; vote: Lord Gurgi

I still feel his posts have been more newbieish than scummy, but I have little else to go on at this point.

Then he comes back to say that the day is stalling, unvotes Scott (scum), and places the 4th vote on the Lord Gurgi bandwaggon.

Well, that's true. But I think my statement is an accurate representation of the state of affairs at the time I made it.

Whoa, hold on, we're not even going to give him an opportunity to claim? That's a little premature. unvote: Lord Gurgi for some breathing room.

Unvotes Lord Gurgi when the bandwaggon gets crowded to give him claiming room (afraid he might be targeted on the next day for stirring an innocent's bandwaggon on day 1?)

Hardly. If I wasn't actually concerned for Lord Gurgi's well-being, I would have just let that go. Had he been lynched, there would have been eight of us as potential targets for stirring an innocent's bandwagon, and whoever came last would have been far more suspect than I.

Gurgi, which did you do last night?

Trying to get info from the cop, afraid that LG had investigated him?
Of course this passed on as a regular townie statement. Fuldu then tries to get as much info as possible from cop, of course making it seem like it's to help the town, but the info she's asking for definately helps him as scum as well.

Gurgi had voted me a couple of times at that point, so it's actually a fair point that, if scum, I might think he had investigated me. But if a cop has already come out, it seems awfully silly to think they wouldn't come right out and post a Night One guilty verdict if they'd had one. Even not knowing their alignment, it's as much to go on on Day One as you're likely to get, and with the cop already exposed, there's little downside.

I agree, Narninian. Asking for a vote count sounds like a bad use of a limited resource.

vote: Scott Morgan

Fuldu, seeing that Scott has pinned himself to the wall with a bad fake claim, adds the 7th vote on Scott. (wanting to make himself part of the bandwaggon that kills his scum buddie?)

Come on now. I wouldn't also do exactly the same thing as a pro-town player?

DAY 2

The more important issue, to me, is that BlueSin acted on this to try to push through a lynch of Lord Gurgi yesterday, without giving him time to claim. To me, that is recklessly impatient, and might be indicative of scum. vote: BlueSin

Puts 3rd vote on Bluesin, going along with TSS and MGM. Although I do agree we need as much discussion as possible, I find Fuldu way more scummy than Bluesin.

Compare what BlueSin did here to what you've claimed I was doing in post 127. I complained that the day wasn't moving fast enough and put the fourth vote on a bandwagon to get things moving again. BlueSin suggested that we'd had enough discussion and it was just important for the day to end, so he put the seventh (or next-to-last) vote on that same bandwagon. Given that I immediately tried to slow things down again to allow for more discussion, how does that make me the scummier of the two of us?

You agree with my reasoning regarding BlueSin and find him to be the next most scummy player, after me. If we lynch him today and he turns out to be scum, will you claim I'm distancing myself from him?

And finally, in response to your last post, my comment quoted there was primarily directed at BlueSin, not at you.

[Fuldu]

Since Scott was mafia, it's safe to say the opposite- that Fuldu was just being stupid (sorry, Fuldu- no real offense intended).

DS didn't give me a reason to unvote, he (and others) pointed out that I had a stupid reason for voting in the first place.

No offense taken, DS. It was a stupid reason and I'll gladly admit as much.

As for silgado and BlueSin, I don't think that all of silgado's reasoning was complete crap, so it's not totally unreasonable that BlueSin might feel strong enough about the parts that make some sense to vote for me. However, since BlueSin had, and still has, four votes on him, my guess is that (scum or not), he was just trying to find a bandwagon to push forward that isn't his. I still find him scummy, but I guess I don't find him more scummy because of this.

[Fuldu]

Also, BlueSin, if silgado's logic was correct, I was distancing myself from Scott Morgan, who was mafia. If I were the supposed remaining SK, I wouldn't know Scott Morgan was mafia to distance myself from. BlueSin is seeming increasingly scummy to me as time goes on.

[Fuldu]

Too much back and forth at this point. I know you're on vacation, FD, but can we get a vote count as soon as you are able?

[Fuldu]

Does anyone want to admit to creating the Chemist? Because, frankly, that sounds like a pretty tame role by Designer Mafia standards. It's certainly not impossible, but it hasn't improved my view of BlueSin much. It sounds more like a possible scum doctor, who might also be, say, a poisoner on the side. If anybody wants to admit to creating the Chemist, I'll take my vote off, otherwise (even though it could be because it's one of FD's roles or that of a deceased player or scum who doesn't feel like being helpful) it stays.

[Fuldu]

Well, let's get Lord Gurgi's results first. What did you do last night and what did your recruit do?

[Fuldu]

It's possible that the sudden lynch and the revival are part of the same role. A player with the ability to end the day with an undeserved lynch and the individual will "die" only to be revived in the morning. I didn't submit such a role, but it'd be a good one.

[Fuldu]

BlueSin's role is definitely pro-town, you can also tell because FD has it printed in green on the front page. But another possibility is a cult reviver, so we should keep in mind that there's no guarantee BlueSin is still good. I don't think it's that likely, but it is a possibility.

[Fuldu]

Mod asked and I choose to hide that in my role description.

This bit actually makes me less confident of his innocence, but we should probably leave him alone for the time-being.

[Fuldu]

DS, that's why it concerns me that BlueSin had the choice of whether to include the information about faking his death. He obviously had some input on what that front page would say, so there's no guarantee his role doesn't have full control over it.

That said, I don't think we should lynch BlueSin today and should move on. Mgm keeps talking about two killing parties, but one of them was the Mimic SK who is dead. That seems suspicious, but not especially so.

I'm inclined to follow a hunch and

vote: King Enigma

.

[Fuldu]

No, that was Mgm who said that, and I think he's just mistaken, not trying to mislead us. My hunch on KingEnigma is just that, a hunch. I read over his posts and there's not any particular thing I could point to, but I don't get a good feeling about it.

[Fuldu]

Two killing parties left would mean we've had one kill blocked every night, and two last night when we know we already had two dead docs. It's not inconceivable, but it seems really, really unlikely.

[Fuldu]

unvote: lord gurgi Maybe your not the master spy, but if theres the smallest chance you are, i'm not going to be the one that does you in.

There. That's the single sentence that gets me queasy about KE. There are some other bits, most notably posts that seem incredibly over the top, like someone who isn't sure how to pretend to make a normal first post of the game. But the reasoning behind that unvote is just wrong. It's not "I believe you and I don't want you lynched;" it's not "I don't particularly believe you, but I don't want to risk losing that role;" it's "I don't particularly believe you, but I don't want to be accused of contributing to the lynch of a cop, so I'll take my vote off."

[Fuldu]

I think that's how it was intended to be interpreted, but the more I read it, the less it seems like that's what it's saying.

[Fuldu]

It's spreading quickly enough that it's probably safe to reveal that I'm the person Gurgi hired Night 2 and who investigated Gaspode last night. It's not inconceivable that he's scum who is also a master spy, but I don't think that's the case.

Whomever Gurgi hired last night shouldn't come out.

[Fuldu]

I can't say for sure, because this is Designer and there could be a Framer out there who has screwed up the front page, but I think you're misreading shadyforce's death scene, Mgm. As I read it, shady, as the Mimic SK, was pretending to be the ninja (who need not be, but could be, scum). The yellow lines are the ones for the person who killed shady, and I think both they and those of gslamm's killer probably better represent Flying Dutchman's silly sense of humor than the sense of humor of the remaining scum.

[Fuldu]

well obviously the reason I know he wasn't targeted is because of my role.. I thought you guys would know that immediately, sorry for assuming... anyways, no he wasn't targeted by a killing group/person/whatever, and I did not try to get him lynch, didn't you read my post at all? I said that could be one of the possibilities, but the one that I agreed with most was that

because

Bluesin was faking his death, Lord Gurgi wasn't targeted. This was information I thought would be useful, but umm you guys didn't take it as so apparently... anyways, Lord Gurgi wasn't targeted by a killing entity, which I thought would help with eliminating possible outcomes of last night... if you guys make me claim, I'm willing to, but I'd prefer not to of course

I didn't get any of that out of your preceding post the first time through. I barely get any of that out of it now, frankly. You certainly didn't suggest that it was more likely because BlueSin is scum than because Lord Gurgi is scum. It's hard to imagine how you thought that would be clear. And that's nothing to the fact that whoever the remaining scum is would also know who was and was not targeted for a kill last night.

vote: silgado106

[Fuldu]

Any particular reason for that vote, PB?

[Fuldu]

Hey, I'm voting with you, Mgm, so short of adding, "hmm, that seems reasonable," I don't know what more I could do.

I would like to ask whether there is a roleblocker who could explain away last night's lack of a kill by having targeted silgado106. If you're a roleblocker who did such a thing, I think now is the time to come out with it. Obviously, a doc or a hider or BlueSin being the only remaining scum or probably other things that don't come to mind might also explain it, but with an accusation against silgado106, this kind of evidence would probably cement it for a lot of people.

[Fuldu]

I don't remember LG clearing PS, though he did clear Gaspode, through me. Unfortunately, through the vagaries of my role interacting with having been hired by LG, I don't get my own results. I'll check my records, but I believe the_silent_speaker should have received the Gaspode result from Night 3, and someone else received last night's result. I'm not going to say who, because I want them to come out with the result. If they don't do so, I'll vote for them.

Also, LG claimed to have hired someone Night 3, and may have been able to do so last night, as well. They need not come out, but we should remember that they're out there.

[Fuldu]

Well, sure, if they have guilty results, they should come out, but if LG recruited someone last night, they haven't even had a chance to investigate yet. No reason for that person to come out that I can think of.

[Fuldu]

I'm also going to reiterate my request that the individual who received my investigation result last night please tell what it was.

[Fuldu]

Okay, that's enough time for me to wait for the one who received my LG results last night to have said so. Norinel, would you care to explain why you were withholding that information? I said I'd vote if you didn't come out, so I will.

vote: Norinel

[Fuldu]

My role says you should have received information (namely my LG investigation) last night. the silent stranger already admitted that it worked when it was passed to him. I don't see any reason that my investigation shouldn't have gone through last night, though there's always the possibility that I was roleblocked. Since people knew I have an LG investigation, I don't know who would have done that except scum, so I'm not going to ask anyone to cop to it. If it was a pro-town roleblocker, I would ask that, given the kill last night, you trust me now and not do it again.

[Fuldu]

And that's the correct target (information I had deliberately withheld), so either Norinel is scummy or the silent speaker is. I'll trust Norinel for now.

unvote: Norinel; vote: the silent speaker

[Fuldu]

Actually, if it was a mod screw-up, can we get a mod admission of the error?

[Fuldu]

Since Norinel received info about the right investigative target, which Fuldu purposely withheld, I tend to believe his results. That is - unless they work together.

No, tss is right about this. Norinel definitely received the result, since he had the right target, but could easily be lying about what it is. One of them is definitely scum. I think it's a mistake for scum to lie about the contents of a one-off investigation, which is why tss didn't, and why I think Norinel isn't.

[Fuldu]

I'm definitely not the other half of the Married Couple, which would leave only PopsicleStix. I don't buy tss's claim, but will hold my vote for final confirmation from PS.

[Fuldu]

My role is only consequentially similar to PeaceBringer's claim. As written, my role has no investigative component and only gained that due to Lord Gurgi's influence, but I don't get to keep it for myself.

I would remind everyone that we have a guilty investigative result from Norinel on the silent speaker, so we should probably lynch one to test the other. My vote's still on tss as scum, but I don't know for sure.

As for KingEnigma's claim, let's try this: KE, have I targeted you yet this game, and if so, which night? Or, to be more thorough, if you list who targeted you each night, that ought to confirm your identity (if not necessarily your alignment) with a lot of people.

[Fuldu]

I'm not bothered by the Ninja/Mafia Ninja conflict. We know we had both a Spy and a Master Spy. KE's role is strongly provable, so I think I'll go with that, if he lists who targeted him and it accords with what people admit to having done.

[Fuldu]

Not necessarily, PB. As I read it, each of them has to make an effort to choose someone to protect, as well as try to find their counterpart, and they aren't getting feedback about what happens. I'm not confident that he's getting any feedback about whether he was actually successful for the night, at which point repeat targeting might make sense. It's not clear to me why he'd do it for KE, and I don't believe his claim anyway, but it's certainly a plausible choice.

tss, who were your night choices the other nights?

I do want Pops to come and confirm or contradict tss's claim. His absence is becoming problematic.

[Fuldu]

Nope, I'm comfortable killing off one side and dealing with the other later.

vote: the silent speaker

[Fuldu]

Vote: TSS

I've only read this page, but the concensus seems to be if I'm not the other half of the married couple, tss is scum. I'm not the other half, so TSS=scum.

Bear with me while I read 18 pages.

Right there, Mgm. He says he isn't.

[Fuldu]

It's hard to imagine how that could have gone any better. Plus, the silent speaker's death and role post tells us who's left that's lying. We had two deaths last night, with only two scum groups left, so no kills were blocked. Taking into account that tss didn't have an active non-kill night choice, only the passive poisoning of his lyncher, he couldn't have targeted King Enigma last night. Given that they're clearly on different teams, I can't figure out why they stuck up for one another, but I can't find any way to square KE's claim of having been targeted by tss with the available data.

vote: King Enigma

[Fuldu]

Two scum groups are left. Two kills occurred last night. If tss performed the kill for his group, he didn't target King Enigma, because both kills occurred. If tss didn't perform the kill for his group, he didn't target King Enigma, because he has a passive role (other than kill potential), not an active one. In either case, tss did not target KE and KE is therefore lying scum. Is that clearer?

[Fuldu]

Okay HUGE FOS to FULDU there

making up stuff about TSS role and using it to cast suspiscion on otheres.

Go read the Mafia Scorpion role on page one.

The person who casts the lynch vote gets killed.

So it is not someone else who did the killing.

I don't even know how to respond to this, because I can't understand what the complaint is.

only the passive poisoning of his lyncher

I had read the role on page one, which is what the above was referencing. I'm talking about the Night 4 kills, not BlueSin's death.

[Fuldu]

I have a vote on King Enigma, as well, FD.

Norinel has a point about Mgm, though. I still think the fact that there's no good explanation for KE's results is stronger than the fact that there's no good explanation for Mgm's results, but it does lead me to wonder.

[Fuldu]

PBuG was cleared by my investigation of him, which went to Lord Gurgi and the silent speaker. Now, in truth, neither of them has a complete incentive to tell the truth, but I don't think LG would have lied about that. I don't need to hear PBuG's claim to believe he's innocent.

Especially since I have yet to hear an explanation of how King Enigma's supposed results could possibly have occurred. To me, there's no question that he's lying, whereas Mgm's results really just depend on how the mod felt like dealing with the situation of the Faker. KE hasn't even attempted to explain it. To reiterate, tss couldn't have targeted KE for anything other than a kill. Last night, there were two killing groups remaining and both of them made their kills. tss, therefore did not target KE, but KE has said that he did.

[Fuldu]

You think we started with four killing groups, Norinel, and no more than two have ever been successful in a single night? Yes, that would be a possible explanation, but it seems improbable to me.

[Fuldu]

Fair enough, Norinel. I like my reasoning better, but I see the merits of yours. Unless another Lord Gurgi anointed investigator wants to point a finger, I can confortably lynch Mgm today.

unvote: King Enigma; vote: Mgm

[Fuldu]

I've hinted at aspects of my role and three separate players have separately confirmed the various claims I've made. Admittedly, one of those players was scum, one was neutral, and the third also hasn't claimed. However, I think it remains in the best interest of the town not to have me claim.

As for Mgm, his most recent post has some errors. First, as mentioned above, Norinel hasn't claimed either. He has suggested things that his role is able to do, and circumstances have supported that. I've done the same.

Second, pushing for fellow scum's death and backing off when you can't get a bandwagon started is actually quite common behavior.

Third, claims don't really help a great deal in this game. Pretty much any of the claims we've heard from the living could also be roles applied to scum. You could be scum with an investigative power, Norinel could be scum with a time-stopping power, and if I tell you my role, I could just as easily be scum with that role.

[Fuldu]

I soldier on in my preference not to claim. If there's a third person who intends to vote me for this attitude, say so and I'll claim, but I maintain that it is better for the town if I don't do so.

[Fuldu]

PBuG, you didn't claim, you just offered to, but I would definitely like to hear this claim, and please include (if appropriate) anyone you targeted across the various nights.

[Fuldu]

PBuG is claiming Mirror Man, which he hasn't yet described, but I find it an incredibly curious claim, given that it's my role name. I actually don't think it's impossible that there are two of us, because it might explain some oddities. Which is why I was waiting for him to complete his claim before I disputed it. But, since he's taking a long time, I'll go first, and he can follow up.

Mirror Man basically selects a target every night and any night actions directed at him on that night are deflected to his target. Under certain circumstances, it would appear that things can get through. Lord Gurgi's targeting of me, for example, bypassed my defenses and got to me. My investigations, however, come back at me, and reflect onto my mirror (not investigative) target.

The reason I've been hesitant to admit this is that I can win for town in a 1-1 endgame scenario, provided the remaining scum doesn't have an ability that can be used to circumvent my skill

and

still attempt his kill on the same night. Since this makes me a strong candidate for a day-kill, I didn't want to fess up to it. Now that I've claimed the role, I think PBuG should follow up with any differences in his role and a list of his targets.

My other suggestion is that if PBuG says that his role is the same, and you don't believe one or the other of us, we should search for scum in the remaining players and leave the two of us for last. Whichever of us is the real Mirror Man will likely win the final endgame.

[Fuldu]

PBuG was cleared by my investigation of him, which went to Gurgi and tss (who, as a member of the eliminated team, would have no incentive to lie for my benefit). Norinel can also vouch that my investigation of tss bounced to him. Everything that I have said I have done is consistent with my claim. I would point out that we should wait for PBuG to say whether his role is the same as the one I have posted. Do you think I have both the power to bounce my investigations to other players and to find out the details of individual's roles, Mgm? None of the other scum have had a mix of skills like that.

I'm not saying PBuG is lying, either, though I'm not completely convinced, but I think lynching me before PBuG has weighed in on the topic is overzealous.

[Fuldu]

Oh, also, PB, you may want to unvote before voting for someone else. Some mods are more particular about that than others.

[Fuldu]

The investigation is a new ability, but the fact that I don't get those results isn't consistent with the way that it is supposed to work. I can investigate someone separately of targeting someone with my natural ability. So, last night I chose to investigate tss and target Norinel. If I were a plain townie, my understanding is that I would have gotten the investigative result on tss myself (along with Gurgi). That doesn't happen. Instead, my investigative result bounces to the player I targeted, in this case Norinel. Similarly with my investigation of PBuG (Gaspode at the time) bouncing to tss.

Also, the two abilities I'm talking about aren't the investigation and the mirroring. I was talking about the two supposed scum abilities I would have to have to have made this claim falsely; a) the ability to bounce my investigative results to other people (hardly a useful skill, especially as the one we've tested is known to have been true), and b) (assuming PBuG claims a role similar to mine) the ability to know the details of somebody else's role.

[Fuldu]

Actually PBuG, my feeling is that if it's down to the two of us we should target other people every night until it's just us and then, as we've both said, town should win. If we target each other and it eliminates our abilities (which would be my guess), that would allow scum to kill us. Whereas if we target somebody else we're not going to get night killed.

[Fuldu]

Umm..., did you send PBuG the wrong role PM? How did he end up claiming my role?