Smoke-Filled Antechamber [Endgame]

[Alisae]

VOTE: midway

[Alisae]

Pooky, am I a terrible person?

[Alisae]

Peta, anyone?
Am I actually just a terrible person and player

[Alisae]

Am I just some awful manipulative narcissist
I just wanna win a mafia game.

[Alisae]

Pooky, am I a terrible person?

I think if we all understood each other we would realize we have more in common than we have differences.

It's just sometimes distance makes it hard for this to happen.

This is just a game, if I didn't enjoy playing it with any of you - I would not be here and it really shouldn't be personal.

Everyone here is lovely and I think if we just calm down we can laugh and enjoy this game a bit more and it doesn't have to be so hurtful - winning is not that important.

<3

I took a nap because I didn’t really want todo anything else and I kinda just feltbad

[Alisae]

I like feel better now but I don’t think its okay for me to feel better idunno

[Alisae]

i cant believe mwb-gf-scum is still here spinning this game is wild

the thing i keep coming back to is why does a scum godfather ever shoot jake night 3

but why not shoot the doctor claim

Has anyone answered these questions?

I could see midway shooting Jake because
- he’s bad at scum
- Jake is in the Deathy and had a chance to be the insane/sane cop
- due to having a chance to be the insane/sane cop, things would get out of control really quickly if Jake was insane and Tammy was sane.

As for not shooting the doctors, due to the amount of viable kills there were, there’s no need to shoot them until you absolutely have to. Prior to day 5, me and pooky were lovers so if they did want to shoot us to bring the game to F4, they would do it then. And there was a no kill.

[Alisae]

jake is a confirmed innocent mason who was not going to be protected

the godfather has to kill the masons to win the game

Also this

[Alisae]

I had fun this game

[Alisae]

because we said in thread that we were protecting Tammy.

[Alisae]

Well rather I said that.
At the time we were in thread mason lover doctors.

Jake was also unprotected because quite frankly he wasn't doing much in thread throughout the whole game. The Deathy said that most of his contributions were in hood.

[Alisae]

Tammy was just the better player to protect basically

[Alisae]

because we said in thread that we were protecting Tammy.

Ohhhhhh naaaaaah

No

That's like WIFOM-ception.

That whole premise stinks rotten.

okay DGB, why would you protect Jake over Tammy?

[Alisae]

They’re both confirmed town with unknown sanities.
Why is Jake more important to keep alive then Tammy

[Alisae]

Let’s not even assign names to them.
Why would you protect the confirmed townie that isn’t participating in thread and has 63 posts over the townie that is participating in thread and has 400+ posts

[Alisae]

Why don't I kill the doc/mason again?

You tried to on night 4!

[Alisae]

Correct play was

Declare you will protect Jake

But in fact protect Tammy

I smell deceit

As scum would you believe a doctor that says they’re going to doc an AFK player?

[Alisae]

It also doesn’t make logical sense as a protective why you would want to stop a night kill. If anything thats just a sweet bonus.
Its far better to just protect the person who is the most valuable to you to keep alive because you randed a role that says “No, you’re not allowed to kill this player.”

[Alisae]

Correct play was

Declare you will protect Jake

But in fact protect Tammy

I smell deceit

As scum would you believe a doctor that says they’re going to doc an AFK player?

Make it believable. As long as scum believes that's what you think

But it is you who is scum

”Just do it idiot”

[Alisae]

Now that I REALLY think about it DGB you are fucking wild.
How does it make any sense for me to be scum when I’m not the doctor and I’m just Pooky’s shield.
If he really wanted to WIFOM a protect because he wanted to stop a kill, then he is the one that needed to send in teh action to protect Jake, NOT me

[Alisae]

I so want to yeet Alisae right now

Why Alisae before Pooky?

Is there a reason to expel Pooky first?

YES IT PROVE THAT THEY’RE A DOCTOR AND THAT THEY STOPPED A NIGHT KILL ON ME ON NIGHT 4.

[Alisae]

I have a solid town read on petapan, and midway is totally growing on me.

There are only two options for my vote. Pooky or Alisae.

I cannot wait for DGB to win this game for scum

[Alisae]

Calling it now

[Alisae]

Somebody is lying about something somewhere in this game.

What do you mean by this?

If at least one of Pooky and Alisae are scum, they are lying to our faces about the doctor business. I don't know what the truth is underneath the lie, but there's a lie.

what exactly am I lieing about? I’m just a fucking vanilla townie

[Alisae]

We lied about being lovers and masons.
That’s it.
When there was a no kill, I came out and said that we weren’t lovers or masons.

[Alisae]

what exactly am I lieing about? I’m just a fucking vanilla townie

Just so you are aware. I consider your posts white noise and I pay no attention to your scum flail. Flail away if you must get it out of your system, but don't expect responses from me.

So don’t expect you to read the game or use your brain?
Got it

[Alisae]

i literally want to just lynch scum as soon as possible, I would prefer not to deal with DGB if I don't have to

[Alisae]

DGB doesn't decide shit.
Peta does.

[Alisae]

Man I hate replacements

[Alisae]

Combined ISO of me + Diamond

[Alisae]

I honestly think if I'm scum with DS and Bell I either do 1 of 2 things
- Try not to bus them as much as possible or
- Tell them to just suicide bomb the deathy N1 and just literally delete the deathy

[Alisae]

I also think if I tell tehm to just suicide bomb the deathy N1 I probably lose cause my late game is actually just non-existant as that alignment.
Late Game is hard bro.

[Alisae]

is it ggs?

[Alisae]

HOLY SHIT DUDE

[Alisae]

IS THE GAME OVER

[Alisae]

okay ig its just pooky then
idunno how that makes sense but ig it is :/

[Alisae]

well DGB shouldn't be dieing because Pooky is a claimed doctor and they have to protect the claimed cop.
As long as DGB checks me we should be good?

[Alisae]

if DGB dies then we just kill Pooky anyways.

[Alisae]

i stg if ur twilight trolling

[Alisae]

btw Peta in the event its you with Pooky I need to leave you with a nugget of wisdom
read back when he first claims doctor and refer that to the night kill.
You might see a pattern.

[Alisae]

sounds like a lost cause bro

[Alisae]

btw Peta in the event its you with Pooky I need to leave you with a nugget of wisdom
read back when he first claims doctor and refer that to the night kill.
You might see a pattern.

what

It's just ammo if you need it.
I didn't bring it up this day phase because like, it just seemed to make more sense that it was midway to me but sit on it and think about pooky's N1 target.
You might just see something interesting

[Alisae]

dont give up alisae

trust in dgb

its doomed

[Alisae]

you can beat peta

i believe in you

thats not what I'm worried about at all

[Alisae]

is alisae hellbusseing eir team while in a lover mason fakeclaim? i dunno

Judging by this game, it would be in character.

HOLY SHIT JUST INVESTIGATE ME

[Alisae]

I might pop up as town but if you don't think there's a gf in the game there you go

[Alisae]

and if you get a town result on me and its me and peta then guess what
there's a godfather
it doesn't matter anyways

[Alisae]

Pooky how am I supposed to convince DGB to make the right decision
it impossible
I don't doubt that she might have been this good player but from 2018 onward when DGB has been town its a sign that things are just doomed.

[Alisae]

If it was Tammy
I had a chance

but DGB

Hell no she hates me and probably wouldn't even give me the light of day

[Alisae]

when she gets angry at me i just hide and post a picture of flowers

if i have to do that then the game is just doomed

[Alisae]

actually I thin I just need to straight up just post what I think.

Alisae and me are Lover-Doctor-Masons.

We protected Tammy last night.

The thing about asking for a private notes PT neighborhood was our crumb. :3

We debated between you and Ffery for a while and decided to pick you because we thought the scum team would think Ffery would draw protection.

this is a weird explanation for a protect when on N1 you can safely assume that no one knows your existance.

[Alisae]

actually I should probably just say what I think

Pooky's explanation for his N1 doc is weird considering the kill was on syr. If its him that strikes a red flag to me.

[Alisae]

Wait for the morphheads to get their catnaps, and then yeah, we'll act tonight and get on with it.

Sadly, no catnap.

It feels like useless idle speculation, but players Tayl0r mentioned more than once:

Prior to Dethy reveal

Midway:
211Picked up on what she (and I and probably half the players) thought was a neighbor crumb.
252 sarcasm about engaged and focused town (sort of a pooky defend)
386 Called Midway and DS scum
392 at least one of midway and DS scum because of interactions
1094 Asked Midway why Gamma's post about OMG TAMMY TOWN was a townpost
1234 Asked Cabd why midway is a strong townread

Pooky:
251 backhanded attack on pooky about RP in reply to Cakez
252 backhanded defense of pooky about RP in reply to midway
1111 start of back and forth about whether to play catchup or skip to real time 1113 more


Cabd:
212Used my dethy post to him to crumb traitor by suggesting Cabd would betray me. -- convenient way to crumb traitor.
1234 Asked Cabd why midway is a strong townread

252 Haircolor post


DS:
260 Who am I buddying?
386 Called Midway and DS scum
392 at least one of midway and DS scum because of interactions
385 Votes DS
1098 Agrees with DS about not liking Bell but liking Bell wagon less
1099 Unvotes DS, wants more from SS
1283 asks if she's the only one townreading DS
1294 1297replies to peta about people scumreading DS


Alisae:
284 votes Alisae
289 297 300(?) trollery
1121 asks about reads list format

SS:
311 Asks SS why he jumps in on Bell on midway's behalf
323 trollery
329 Calls SS Town
348 oh snap u right
Unvotes DS wants more from SS

SirCakez
251 "Ur Scum" over liking the RP
1145 tells Cakez not to lie about her

petapan
334 Tells petapan not to abuse her tendency to townread people who pocket her
392 398 responds to peta's push about midway/DS scum
404 asks for peta's reads
406 "same, honestly" to peta's "no"
1294 1297 1308 1310replies to peta about people scumreading DS
1358 asks why DS is now a scumread


Bulge
1122 replies to his question about why she's asking questions about the reads list format
1524 replies to his post about difficulty getting stuck in the game with a comment about the 2012 cohort

Bell
311 Asks SS why he jumps in on Bell on midway's behalf
1098 Agrees with DS about not liking Bell but liking Bell wagon less
1135 Weird post about Bell's grandparents being spies.
1529 troll about bell reading

Gamma
1094Asked Midway why Gamma's post about OMG TAMMY TOWN was a townpost

2012 Cohort
Agrees with Bulge about difficulty getting engaged, says she's having trouble parsing 2012 posts

Reads After Dethy Reveal

1647 Jake traitor
1689 SS town
1690 "stronger townread on SS and scumreads on peta and bell."
1692 "midway is scum too. pooky feels not great but im not sure yet."
1752 Asks about midway saying not in a neighborhood after "softclaiming" (her word) neighborhood earlier
1763"gl with the 2012 cohort"

Players she didn't mention:

Nahdia
Syryana

Players she hardly mentioned

Cabd
Bulge
tammy - 1437fortune cookie post
fferyllt - hair color post, traitor crumb (links above)

----------------

Stuff that sticks out

1690 "stronger townread on SS and scumreads on peta and bell." -- could be my confbias but given the differing depths of interactions I feel like this could mean Bell-scum. Otoh Bell's reaction the the grandparent post feels counter to that.
Posts to bulge feel low-engagement. Maybe because Bulge wasn't around much to interact with? After the dethy announcement bulge was more focused on the rest of the dethy than on Tayl0r.
Posts to Cakez are at about the level of engagement she had with me :/

1690 would have been about 2 scumreads and this is analysis from a traitor's ISO.

[Alisae]

actually I should probably just say what I think

Pooky's explanation for his N1 doc is weird considering the kill was on syr. If its him that strikes a red flag to me.

I posted this twice because i refreshed hte page and saw that my post got yeeted somehow btw it was weird

[Alisae]

What do you mean?

i just felt like you were being shifty and not committing to any read, if i could have understood what you were thinking i would have maybe been able to change my mind

i guess again for the 3rd time this game it's my fault for not trying harder to solve you

if it makes you feel any better, we were both wrong for the same reason and I don't think its your fault.

[Alisae]

like i said, the blame ultimately lies with the voter, and that's me. but none of this was inevitable. we could have done things differently

Well I'm convinced its not you.

if you're scum, you vote Pooky when he's at L-1
you kill DGB
and then we're stuck in the disaster that is Me you and Midway

[Alisae]

though technically you couldn't vote pooky right away, that would be too obv
but he was at L-1 for a good amount of time
I think its just more likely you're town but if I have to 1v1 you I will come at you with full force.

[Alisae]

I'll come at Pooky full force too.

[Alisae]

tomorrow is actually gonna be a whole lotta fun if I'm living
its doomed
but I think it would have to be the first time I really poured my heart and soul into a 1v1 with someone tomorrow.

Idunno its looking fun.
Its weird because I want to be alive tomorrow but looking at teh game objectively, me dgb and pooky is probably a loss for me.

[Alisae]

WAIT NO SHIT
I JUST REALIZED
HOLY SHIT

[Alisae]

I don't think I instavote Pooky if its Pooky Peta Me

wtf

[Alisae]

I WANNA 1V1 IN F3 T_T

[Alisae]

I don't think I instavote Pooky if its Pooky Peta Me

wtf

What why

gut feeling that that decision is actually going to be really hard for me to make. Is it intuition, is it foresight? Am I baiting Pooky?
Who fucking knows

[Alisae]

POOKY PLEASE
DO NOT CREATE A GAMESTATE THAT WOULD ENCOURAGE YOU ME AND PETA IN F3
PLEASE DON'T DO THAT

[Alisae]

Alright well it seems like I'm at the disadvantage here.
VOTE: Pooky

I'm going to need some time to actually write up a case.

[Alisae]

Thank you

[Alisae]

Day 1 - Scum identified that Taylor was their traitor.

I don't think D1 is actually that relevant to proving Pooky is scum.
During D1 a lot didn't really happen that involved Pooky until the Deathy was actually revealed.

There is something that I caught on Day 4 which Bell posted.
The post is really huge, its 1417 if you want to take a look for it yourself, but in this post, posts in a spoiler to taylor who is a traitor

#1094: Pinged.
#1098: Okay.
#1099: Okay?
#1111: You sound like there's a

terrorist

with a gun to your head forcing you to play in 12 games just out of frame or something.
#1113: I don't!
#1125: Sure.
#1135: Wut? We went to a Halloween pumpkin tour thing. It was very pretty. My grandpa said his favorite part was the pumpkin 'Dinasnores.' which is my new favorite made up word.
#1214: What about the last few pages wasn't fun? I had fun.

This is important because

if scum's team composition is just 3 suicide bombers and 1 traitor rolecop, then this is the best proof we have of this because this is Bell telling Taylor exactly what scum has.

This would mean that the scumteam already found their tratior.

So with this in mind, you could technically argue that this is Pooky defending Taylor. This was after the Deathy was revealed

i can actually see taylor doing that because she's a massive shitposting troll

i find it less likely she does it when she's an actual traitor

I feel like Labelling Taylor as a troll is not a bad way to protect your traitor?
What I feel like makes it good is it acts as a way to distance from your partner if they die but also its really easy for scum to fake this reasoning to townread someone.
I feel like its really easy to label someone you think is a troll as town and I feel like thats what he's banking on.
Also apparently somewhere later Pooky apparently accused Taylor of crumbing to them.
At this point they just want to distance themselves from Taylor because they know Taylor is going to die.
They don't ever actually vote Taylor though.

--

Day 2/Setup Spec - Pooky's Mason Lover play and how his claim evolves in general.

I think this is where things start to get really bad for Pooky.
There was another townie (Nahdia) who at the time was suspecting Pooky.
Pooky I feel like was mostly in a town/nullish spot, I don't think he was really set up for late game.
And it gets even worse when Cabd and Something_Smart come out as masons. I want to note that Cabd's exactly claim was that he was masons with Something_Smart and that

he is a miller novice vig

.

I was buddying Pooky around the time he makes this post. I think I said somewhere that I wanted a neighborhood with him.
Pooky probably feels really pressured to make a play and take a risks given if he feels like he doesn't, he might end up on the chopping block. Hence why he does this

Alisae should we claim too ? :3

and he claims Lover Doctor Masons.
Now, this is bullshit. We don't need to talk about the Lover and Mason parts. Its a really good claim to use to not get investigated for awhile.
But I do want to talk about the doctor part, because by making this exact claim, he locks himself into claiming doctor if he wants to fakeclaim some kind of PR.
So with that said, this is justification for a fake action and I find this justification to be really strange and sticks out to me.

We debated between you and Ffery for a while and decided to pick you because we thought the scum team would think Ffery would draw protection.

This is a really bad mindset for a doctor to actually have.
N1 its better to play as if scum don't know you exist since you don't have any evidence to prove that you do exist.
This line of reasoning also sticks out to me because Syr was shot N1.
Why this sticks out to me is because his reasoning for targetting Tammy was to play around scum playing around a doctor, but the night kill feels like it was set up to support this narative.

Let's fast foward a bit to his actual claim which is here:

pool should be me, alisae, pooky

actually Alisae is conf-town.

I protected Alisae last night - so you have to be the scum

This is actually huge because this is a huge mistake for several reasons.
Let's start with some basic setup spec. Let's say I'm a godfather and Pooky actually is a doctor.

Doctor
Lover Mason Miller
Lover Mason 1-shot Vig (I don't remember if Novice was actually a modifer that Cabd had but I do know he likes fakeclaiming novice).
Sane Cop
Insane Cop
Paranoid Cop
Naive Cop
(And let's remember that any of these cops can become confirmed town as soon as they kill the traitor).

VS

Rolecop Traitor
suicide bomber
suicide bomber
Godfather

An ungated doctor is one of the strongest roles you can have in a mafia game. You can essentially deny scum from killing 1 individual until they deal with you.
The Doctor just seems like it has too much power in the setup and just feels like it doesn't need to exist.
I also think that because of suicide bombers in the game (which apparently invalidate the doctor according to Pooky), suicide bomber vs protection interactions weren't planned. We'll never be able to know for sure because FakeGod didn't post how the suicide bombers actually function.
What also doesn't make sense is why the Doctor is ungated by the Vig is gated.

I feel like with all of these reasons above, it doesn't make sense for Pooky's role to co-exist within the setup.
The way he has to make this claim work is to prove it exists.

--

The No Kill

A wise bear once said

scum no-kill out of desperation to create a claim they need

Generally, when you want to no kill as scum there is a reason for it and there is something you want to do with it.

This is Pooky's best opportunity to make his doctor claim look real because the only player thats in the deathy that's alive is Tammy and there is a ton of motivation to just keep protecting Tammy. Shooting around Tammy doesn't really play out for him that well in the long run. It also just doesn't make sense to kill me because at this point in time I'm still his mason lover buddy.
I think it would be believable to lie about protecting me to prove yourself because its very believable to expect me to get shot at Night 4 due to the amount of thread presence I commanded.

The only problem with this play is that here he confirms he's an ungated doctor. The only reason to believe that he's an ungated doctor was that he protected me, but DGB, you should know that by now that one of us no killed.

--

Nahdia Kill

I think both of us would want to kill Nahdia here.
I think there is more reason for Pooky to want to get Nahdia out of the game as soon as possible because before D5 ended, Nahdia thought that Pooky was scum.
That's all I really have for this.

--

Pooky's Day 6

Pooky's plan at the start of Day 6 was simple.
He presents that he should be the flip to prove that he did in fact protect me and he self-votes and I also vote him.

peta take care of alisae get mwb tomm

VOTE: pooky

Around this point he is insisting that he selfs.

This seems fine but this is something that I find to be really strange.
When I start consolidating votes onto Midway to force Midway.

Pooky I have a brilliant idea.
Let's force Midway to vote you
VOTE: Midway

VOTE: Midway

I'm ready my love

And I force Midway to vote him.

VOTE: Pooky
fine...

VOTE: Pooky

If Pooky was okay with dieing, why doesn't he ever move his vote off Midway?

--

Why does Pooky pick this F3

I feel like Pooky's best chance of winning this game is through you.
I think its really apparent that our playstyles don't vibe with each other and Pooky knows you way better then I do.
I feel like what his goal in this F3 is going to be is he is going to argue that I'm in the better position and because I'm in the better position I'm scum for creating this LyLo.
And to an extent, he's right. This IS my best F3 to win if I'm scum. I think if it was me vs Peta it would be a lot harder for me to win then it would be me vs Pooky.
But with that said, I still think its easier for Pooky to convince you to vote me then it is for me to convince you to vote Pooky.

--

The main reasons why Pooky is scum boils down to this.
- His defense of taylor makes sense for scum to make in his position
- He felt pressured to make a play when he learned that he had to deal with a pair of masons as well as a bunch of cops that he cannot discredit. He convinces me to claim mason lovers with him so he can go a few nights without being investigated.
- The N1 kill in particular makes it feel like Pooky is setting up for a play due to Pooky's explanation of his N1 protect and what actually happened.
- An ungated doctor makes no sense to actually be in the setup. It's just too strong and doesn't match up with the fact that the vig is gated.
- Because he already claimed doctor, he feels obligated to prove it so he opts to no kill.
- Pooky has a lot of reason to want Nahdia dead.
- Pooky's day 5 play is weird because he presents a plan but does not go through with it when given the opportunity to do so.
- Pooky likely wants to bring me into this F3 because it's more likely that he'll be able to convince you to vote me then I will be able to convince you to vote Pooky.

[Alisae]

In case you're curious, Alisae...

My comments and interactions yester-gameday were completely insincere and totally strategic. My reasons for thinking Pooky was the last scum were less convincing than yours in the big post you just laid out, but that's where I was. It was in the interest of my own survival to make Pooky feel that I would be solidly in his corner, and prejudiced against you, who was the least confirmed player.

That’s fine. You lead me along and I believed it

[Alisae]

If Pooky was okay with dieing, why doesn't he ever move his vote off Midway?

I mean you said you were ok with dying yesterday too and you never even voted yourself. I said to Peta that I was ready to die when he was convinced my solve was correct.

Which apparently it's shit so now I have to try-hard to make it up to mwb

Okay, who got to L-1 and actually had a chance to fall through with killing themselves?

[Alisae]

im doctor

if i wasnt doctor you would not be alive.

I think it’s really unfair for a doctor to be in this game with unlimited shots.
It’s one of the most powerful roles in the game along the likes of cops and vigs.

[Alisae]

Dgb I’m in a rose garden at night cuz I decided to go for a walk.
Ima respond to poorly more later, but do you want pics?

[Alisae]

Pooky*
Dang auto correct

[Alisae]

DGB do you understand that if I'm a suicide bomber as Alisae says - it would make no sense for me to claim doctor at F6 with a confirmed sane mason cop because this means the sane mason cop will just find me and I can't ever kill the sane mason cop right?

You're right, there are a few conditions that you need to meet to win the game with this play. I'm not going to entertain that it makes no sense anymore. From my POV, you're scum, its an event that happened, and I need to justify why you did it.

Let's address the "Why"
In my post I said it was a mistake but the thing is, in the moment of night 4, you were stuck.
- You couldn't kill Tammy.
- Killing me outs that we aren't lovers or masons.
- Killing anyone outside of {Me, Tammy} makes the claim look a lot more questionable. If I ever decide to out we're not mason lovers and anyone else is killed, that makes you look weird for saying you lied about being a doctor. While yes, you can argue the town motivation behind the fakeclaim, you have to deal with the risk that its might not be that well recieved and you go back into the PoE pool anyways.

BUT, if you could make your claim look better, maybe you have a chance to live longer and eventually you might find an opportunity to win the game.
It also delays your investigation a bit, but its enough time to be able to maybe find an opening.

I feel like that's satisfactory as to why, but now let's get into the conditions you need to actually win.

You need to identify who you bring into F3 and get there without being investigated. This is the easy part. Let's start at Night 5.
You lose against Nahdia; her read on you is just too natural for you to deal with and she would likely get in the way of you trying to lynch in the pool of investigated players. She has to go.
You will safely not get investigated this night for a few reasons.
- You claimed doctor. It doesn't make sense for the cop to investigate the doctor who if he is town, will likely die anyway.
- Tammy said who she was investigating and I think its pretty safe to say that she wouldn't lie herself because she doesn't like liars. You saw that based on how she handled me unclaiming lover masons.

We're now at F5 with Peta, Me, and Midway alive.
Ideally, you want to keep me alive as long as possible because I'm the uninvestigated player. As long as you take the other uninvestigated player into night 6, you can still win because of the 50-50 choice DGB has to make on who to investigate.
Midway is the most lynchable out of the clears so he has to go.

Get him out of the picture and me alive, you got to F3 without getting investigated, all that's left is to decide who to kill and build an F3 that you can win.
The reason why you killed Peta is because you lose the 1v1 against Peta. I don't feel like DGB would vote Peta over you in that gamestate.

Really, what the claim boils down to is why does Pooky ever need to make this play as doctor because if he actually is a doctor, he doesn't need a shield, he just needs to stay hidden.

Alisae and me are Lover-Doctor-Masons.

We protected Tammy last night.

The thing about asking for a private notes PT neighborhood was our crumb. :3

Simply by the existence of this post and this play, this level of reasoning is possible for me to deduce. What do you think DGB?

[Alisae]

Okay, who got to L-1 and actually had a chance to fall through with killing themselves?

well I tried a lot harder to kill myself. You kind of just posted a 1 liner.

I was ready to die yesterday as soon as Tammy/Peta were ok with it but then you got into that fight with Tammy and everything started falling apart.

Then wouldn't the responsibility be on you to make sure everything gets back on track? Or did me and Peta being greedy about wanting to kill Midway convince you that you didn't need to keep that sharade up anymore?

[Alisae]

its not that powerful when scum have a godfather

I disagree and I generally think its not exactly understood how strong it is to deny a player from dieing.
If you save 2 players, that is 1 extra lynch and you have 2 extra players that are clear to boot as well.
It can snowball like crazy too if you're good enough.

You're value as a doctor doesn't just come from stopping kills.
You don't have to stop a kill to get value out of your role, you get value out of your role just by existing and making sure that 1 player will always be alive at the next day phase.

And when it works, its significantly harder to say that that person no killed then to say that another person is a godfather. Its a clear that goes beyond investigations.

When it comes to the godfather, it also scales into the game but it has the problem that it relies on teammates. A godfather cannot win in this setup by itself because it will eventually be found out and because of how well known the role is, its easy for townies to talk themselves into thinking that one might exist.

There's also problems with the claim in general that my post mostly just focuses on. If you look at what's already been flipped, your claim sticks out as a sore thumb because it has no reason to be here.

[Alisae]

There is something that I caught on Day 4 which Bell posted.
The post is really huge, its 1417 if you want to take a look for it yourself, but in this post, posts in a spoiler to taylor who is a traitor
In post 1417, Bell wrote:
#1094: Pinged.
#1098: Okay.
#1099: Okay?
#1111: You sound like there's a terrorist with a gun to your head forcing you to play in 12 games just out of frame or something.
#1113: I don't!
#1125: Sure.
#1135: Wut? We went to a Halloween pumpkin tour thing. It was very pretty. My grandpa said his favorite part was the pumpkin 'Dinasnores.' which is my new favorite made up word.
#1214: What about the last few pages wasn't fun? I had fun.
This is important because if scum's team composition is just 3 suicide bombers and 1 traitor rolecop, then this is the best proof we have of this because this is Bell telling Taylor exactly what scum has.
This would mean that the scumteam already found their tratior.

can you explain why bell would ever want to signal to taylor that the scum team is three suicide bombers? I don't see why that information is relevant to Taylor.

You don't see how signalling to a rolecop that the scumteam is composed of suicide bombers is relevant for a rolecop?

--

like how do you even read "3 suicide bombers" out of "terrorist with a gun" anyway? This feels like a bit of a stretch.

I can see why he would crumb that so his Godfather could cite it later and try to show it's some sign that there is no Godfather in the game and there is three suicide bombers.

because the italian mafia isn't a terrorist group and terrorism involves explosions. You think things go boom when you think of terrorism.

But the level of foresight you are suggesting doesn't make sense because it requires Bell to predict how the game is played out on Day 1 without knowing any of the other major pieces of the setup that are at play. I don't think Taylor was even in any danger at that point. Its a lot more likely that he's signalling to taylor what their team composition is.

[Alisae]

I disagree and I generally think its not exactly understood how strong it is to deny a player from dieing.
If you save 2 players, that is 1 extra lynch and you have 2 extra players that are clear to boot as well.
It can snowball like crazy too if you're good enough.

No because I was literally leashed to Tammy for all the night protections. I can't just wander off and protect somebody else to try to steal half an elim - if I get outguessed and mafia kills tammy, I am auto-elimd the next day and we lose both the IC-Cop and the Doctor.

I don't expect you to. The post was mostly theory about how strong the role is in general.
My arguement is that due to how strong the role is, it stands out and wouldn't exist within the setup. If it did exist, it needs limitations but your role supposedly has no limitations.

[Alisae]

When it comes to the godfather, it also scales into the game but it has the problem that it relies on teammates. A godfather cannot win in this setup by itself because it will eventually be found out and because of how well known the role is, its easy for townies to talk themselves into thinking that one might exist.

how would a cop/doc pair find a godfather?

If everyone is clear, no one is clear.

[Alisae]

You will safely not get investigated this night for a few reasons.
- You claimed doctor. It doesn't make sense for the cop to investigate the doctor who if he is town, will likely die anyway.
- Tammy said who she was investigating and I think its pretty safe to say that she wouldn't lie herself because she doesn't like liars. You saw that based on how she handled me unclaiming lover masons.

I had no idea who tammy would investigate before I claimed doctor. there's no reason for tammy to not investigate me. She had 2 investigations out of 3 people. - I have only a 33% chance of not getting investigated and fake-claiming doctor basically forces me to take the chance Tammy will not investigated me AND I have to argue whoever she does investigate is GFather AND I have to leave a IC-Cop alive all the way into endgame.

The line of play where I fake-claim doctor makes absolutely no sense for me as scum to make.

you don't need to know before. She said so after.
Right here?
See
Look at it
its right here

If we no elim:

Pooky heals me.
I cop midwaybear -
Pooky should die

We go into tomorrow with 5 people. If midwaybear is red, we elim him tomorrow gg. If he's town, we elim Alisae. If Alisae is town then we know there's a godfather and they can resolve that in final three.

If Pooky is town and he is telling the truth (here) that he is a doctor and he healed Alisae last night when there was no kill, then midwaybear should come back red. It hasn't cost us anything or any time really. If we no elim, go into fast night where we all submit our actions quickly, we're looking at a quick turn around.

There's shenanigans if pooky's scum, but if he's town this should be easy. Unless godfather.

It doesn't make sense for Tammy to investigate you night 5. If she does and you die, then she wastes an investigation.

--

Also, there's another thing I want to mention.
During Day 5, I was pushing to eliminate one of me and midway.

NO ONE ADDRESSED WHY MY PLAN WAS BAD

and it still bothers to me.
You however were pushing to no eliminate.
See, the thing with my action is if we do eliminate on day 5, you cannot win and let me explain why.

Let's say we eliminate Midway on Day 5 and we go into night with 5 players.
You shoot Nahdia because you can't shoot Tammy, reducing the amount of players into night being 4.
Tammy gets an investigation on me or you. If its you we lose.
If she investigates me, we FTC and no lynch, she investigates you, you can't kill her.
You can kill Nahdia, Peta, or Me but Tammy will investigate you and that means you die if you die to cops.
You have no where to go.

[Alisae]

You can also claim Vanilla Townie.
Let's see how that plays out, let's say we lynch midway.

The next phase you shoot Tammy and this creates an F4 of Nahdia, Peta, You, and Me.
This means that the decision that DGB has to make in this gamestate is the exact same as the decision Peta and Nahdia have to make in a F4 where we are 1v1ing.

I actually think this is really funny but that might just be me, who knows tho.

[Alisae]

you don't need to know before. She said so after.
Right here?
See
Look at it
its right here

Why wouldn't I need to know before? it makes no sense for me to lock myself into a doc-claim as scum who can be investigated.

Why would a cop investigate the doc the night they claimed when they can potentially die? You're wasting an investigation and as a cop, you want to make the most out of your investigations.

[Alisae]

Here are the pictures of roses I promised.
I live near a Rose Garden and its a really nice place to hang out at, especially a night.
They might be hard to see though cause its so dark out.

Spoiler: Rose Garden

this fountain is also just really nice to look at as well

[Alisae]

Alisae-scum would have to be psychic to no-kill on the night Pooky was going to pretend to doc-protect them.

LOL

[Alisae]

i just woke up
gonna do waking up stuff and make some food

[Alisae]

youtube down time to play mafia

[Alisae]

ok I'm around now -

essentially Alisae-scum No-Kills on N4 so that the town has a wider POE pool on D5 - it is harder for the town to hit a scum in 6 players than 5 - similarly it is harder for the town to hit a scum in 4 players than 3.

It is better for scum to play 6p -> 4p lylo rather than 5p -> 3p lylo because their win probability is better.

If town declines the elim at 6 - town gets an extra investigation which helps Alisae-GF because if Alisae gets investigated they are on an even keel with any investigated townies in the endgame.

Or I could just shoot Peta or EVEN better: I could shoot Tammy, go "Pooky wtf?????" and vote you.

[Alisae]

DGB, who is more likely to fakeclaim mason lovers with a random player, a doctor who is only told that they are town, or mafia?
I've seen Mafia fakeclaim masons with a villager before. They also had a janitor so it made sense for them to try to make that play.
I've never seen a villager who is only told that they are town, ask a random player to fakeclaim masons with them. Have you?

[Alisae]

Pooky needs to justify why as a villager he made that play and he hasn't yet and honestly, I don't think he can.

[Alisae]

Or I could just shoot Peta or EVEN better: I could shoot Tammy, go "Pooky wtf?????" and vote you.

if you did that you just die next. town has 2 elims.

our positions are exactly mirrrored.

F5 Nahdia, Me, Pooky, Peta, Midway.
Pooky dies during the day.
I shoot Nahdia.

F3 of Me, Peta, and Midway looks pretty winnable for me.

[Alisae]

Pooky needs to justify why as a villager he made that play and he hasn't yet and honestly, I don't think he can.

I did it because at the time I was town-reading you and thought it would be a fun play to tilt the scum team. I didn't think you would be scum :/

Okay, let's see how this flys

Hey DGB, what do you think of this? Do you think this is a strong enough reason for a villager who only has the information in their role pm that they are town, to fakeclaim mason lovers with another villager?

[Alisae]

F5 Nahdia, Me, Pooky, Peta, Midway.
Pooky dies during the day.
I shoot Nahdia.

F3 of Me, Peta, and Midway looks pretty winnable for me.

?!

We were both claiming doctor mason lover - you had promised to tammy that you would keep her safe. You really think you can get away with shooting Tammy at night!?

Yes

[Alisae]

You don't think I can pocket Peta in F3?

[Alisae]

I think if I was scum I could and I would try to.

[Alisae]

its not as hard as you make it out to be.

[Alisae]

Hey DGB, what do you think of this? Do you think this is a strong enough reason for a villager who only has the information in their role pm that they are town, to fakeclaim mason lovers with another villager?

Well

Once in a hydra with kuribo... we fakeclaimed mason with dramonic... we were town and so was he!

Link?

[Alisae]

Hey DGB, what do you think of this? Do you think this is a strong enough reason for a villager who only has the information in their role pm that they are town, to fakeclaim mason lovers with another villager?

Well

Once in a hydra with kuribo... we fakeclaimed mason with dramonic... we were town and so was he!

Link?

search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&keyw ... 1&start=75

I'ma take a look. In the meanwhile, do you think Pooky's reasoning for making that play is fine?

[Alisae]

You are getting lost in detail.

Ultimately I still cannot accept that Alisae would no kill and

serendipitously

Pooky just happened to be doc-protecting them.

Alisae no killed because alisae wanted to be investigated and give the town worse elim odds. the fact that happened to be the night i protected alisae is a stroke of luck.

what would be even more unlikely than that is pooky-scum deciding to fakeclaim doctor and then claiming a protect on alisae.

I think I like the way I win this game better if I'm scum.

[Alisae]

Hey DGB, what do you think of this? Do you think this is a strong enough reason for a villager who only has the information in their role pm that they are town, to fakeclaim mason lovers with another villager?

Well

Once in a hydra with kuribo... we fakeclaimed mason with dramonic... we were town and so was he!

Link?

search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&keyw ... 1&start=75

I'ma take a look. In the meanwhile, do you think Pooky's reasoning for making that play is fine?

why did you two make this play?

[Alisae]

SAY WHAT

If this is about what I wrote, I like killing tammy, lynching pooky the next day, shooting nahdia, and trying to convince Peta to vote Midway.
That might not have been clear.

[Alisae]

Hey DGB, what do you think of this? Do you think this is a strong enough reason for a villager who only has the information in their role pm that they are town, to fakeclaim mason lovers with another villager?

Well

Once in a hydra with kuribo... we fakeclaimed mason with dramonic... we were town and so was he!

Link?

search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&keyw ... 1&start=75

I'ma take a look. In the meanwhile, do you think Pooky's reasoning for making that play is fine?

why did you two make this play?

For giggles, Alisae. GIGGLES

Alright ig I can concede the point that Pooky wouldn't claim mason lovers with a random villager? To me it doesn't make sense why any villager would do that period but if you think that the play is valid for town to make then thats fine ig?

[Alisae]

Pooky next game you should try having 800+ posts

[Alisae]

Alright ig I can concede the point that Pooky wouldn't claim mason lovers with a random villager? To me it doesn't make sense why any villager would do that period but if you think that the play is valid for town to make then thats fine ig?

That play was kind a legend at the time.

Its not something that I would ever see today and I think I have like 100+ games logged ever since I started playing in 2017

[Alisae]

Pooky next game you should try having 800+ posts

every game I've gone over 900 posts I end up losing badly

at least you were town!!!!!

[Alisae]

I had a lot of fun this was great

[Alisae]

I also feel really happy with this W except for like 1 thing

[Alisae]

@Tammy
I feel like I should apologize for my D6 if you're reading this.
tbh, I kinda don't really know where I went wrong, and I honestly feel like that is really not good
I just know that I was really out of line in how I acted and I shouldn't have acted like that.
I'm sorry.

[Alisae]

Pooky played well ya

[Alisae]

I think playing the traitor in this setup is super fun

[Alisae]

I honestly feel like Cabd might have overplayed his hand a bit too early but I mean it worked
it got Pooky to make a really big mistake which is the doctor claim.
The way he maintained that claim and kept the doctor part unchanged kinda sticks out like a sore thumb

[Alisae]

I wonder if playing up the godfather angle would have worked?

I genuinely think that the godfather angle wouldn't matter in F3.
The decider in F3 needs to be able to justify who they think is most likely going to be scum given the events that happened in the game.

[Alisae]

Is it weird I don't exactly understand the critism I'm getting in the dead PT?

Maybe I can explain things a bit better then I did with Tammy.

D2 when I saw Pooky asking me if he wanted to claim, I feel like the answer to this question is always yes. I wanted to see what Pooky was going to do. If I really hated it I can just say no.
When he claimed, I figured I should maintain it at least for 1 phase. If Pooky was town, then one of us should get shot and we distracted town from shooting the 2012 cohert for just a tiny bit and the issue resolves itself. If we do this, it works out, the issue resolves itself, and everyone is happy.

Like yes, I would normally just never do this when there are too many ways it could go wrong. I know what LLD did to Katsuki, literally everyone does.

[Alisae]

Like, I feel like if town lost this game, it wasn't because of the mason claims?

[Alisae]

This apology is fine, but I’m not really quite sure you are sorry for your actions more than you’re sorry that I got so pissed.

I think I was out of line when I demanded an apology after the game.

[Alisae]

I would be lieing and pretending to believe that my play was wrong even though I believe it was fine.

I think from a gameplay perspective in this game is fine.

How am I supposed to realize I was wrong and accept that when I don't understand why I would be wrong in the first place.

[Alisae]

sorry for nearly screwing that up there

man, don't feel bad.
You believed in me didn't you?

[Alisae]

I feel like I played that well

[Alisae]

Like
I poured my heart into the game just as much as everyone else did.

[Alisae]

if you dont realize what you did wrong this game then idek what to say

like, day 4 in particular when we eliminated cakez out of a dirth of other options. that didnt have to happen at all. if you had retracted your claim that day, the game might have ended then!

Okay but what if it was literally just cakez.

[Alisae]

I would be lieing and pretending to believe that my play was wrong even though I believe it was fine.

I think from a gameplay perspective in this game is fine.

How am I supposed to realize I was wrong and accept that when I don't understand why I would be wrong in the first place.

Like if you think this is the issue and if you really have 0 remorse given how others feel about this game I don't know what to tell you.

We can't make you see the light if you don't want to, just remind others that this is a pattern of behaviour and people will make the choices they need to make to protect themselves.

Is it basically it doesn't matter if its right or not from a game perspective, it matters from a social perspective?

[Alisae]

i wouldnt go so far as to say alisae is being malicious. clearly e believes this is a valid way to play. i just massively disagree because it strips agency from the entire rest of the town and is just... super arrogant.

LLD and Tammy have reason to believe I'm malcious.
The burden on me is to prove that I'm better and quite frankly I'm not doing that.
I think I'm starting to get it though?
Like actually legit, I think I'm starting to understand that the problem is I care too much about winning that I hurt other people along the way.

[Alisae]

Like actually legit, I think I'm starting to understand that the problem is I care too much about winning that I hurt other people along the way.

If this is the case, I think I actually just need to quit or find a different site to play on until I deal with this. Its probably just the root of all of my problems and I feel like if I address it maybe I can be a better person.

[Alisae]

I have no idea where to start though

[Alisae]

I didn't give much thought about who to investigate between Alisae and Pooky - if one was town, the other was scum. But there could have been godfather shenanigans 5% chance.

I feel like copping Pooky covers all of the options?

[Alisae]

ig it doesn't matter that much

[Alisae]

The setup is too hard for Taylor

[Alisae]

This isn't an easy setup by any means and Taylor didn't know how to play it.
Honestly, not their fault.

[Alisae]

Like actually legit, I think I'm starting to understand that the problem is I care too much about winning that I hurt other people along the way.

If this is the case, I think I actually just need to quit or find a different site to play on until I deal with this. Its probably just the root of all of my problems and I feel like if I address it maybe I can be a better person.

viewtopic.php?p=7430794#p7430794

Go read it.

Its not normal for me to fakeclaim in my town gameplay to the extreme I did here.
I think whenever I did fakeclaim though it did do a lot more damage socially.

[Alisae]

Like actually legit, I think I'm starting to understand that the problem is I care too much about winning that I hurt other people along the way.

If this is the case, I think I actually just need to quit or find a different site to play on until I deal with this. Its probably just the root of all of my problems and I feel like if I address it maybe I can be a better person.

viewtopic.php?p=7430794#p7430794

Go read it.

OMG a whole thread of "how to suck all the fun out of mafia."

The whole game of mafia already had its fun sucked out of it when you get really good at it.

[Alisae]

This isn't a game that is meant to be played competatively.
Its for casuals who pick it up as a party game

[Alisae]

Honestly
I'm not sure its about the play anymore and about just how I hurt people in the game.
I don't really see why you should defend me when LLD (and now Tammy), have reason to believe that I'm a malcious person.

[Alisae]

Like "I will value my own reads/enjoyment/plans to the extent that I will potentially gamethrow" is a valid choice. It's a free country/mafia site.

Choosing to avoid you going forward for this behavior is ALSO a valid choice that people can react with.

From a social perspective: If you care about the other people in the game, don't do it.
From a gameplay perspective: Someone being fake conftown for 1 or 2 phases isn't going to be the end of the world given that gamestate.

[Alisae]

If Tammy's replacement hadn't been a god tier player I'm not sure it would have been a win.

Disagree

[Alisae]

Like can anyone explain why Taylor was crumbing "Traitor" in this setup?

you randed traitor and you feel pressured to signal to your team because your role pm says you're a traitor

[Alisae]

My big problem with the "gambit" or whatever is that you put your own reads (which were completely terrible) above everyone else's reads and nearly cost everyone the game. It was a super egotistical move and you don't even seem to realize it...

Socially its not the play.
Gameplay wise it was fine in the gamestate and town won.
I don't care about miseliminating you and midway as long as the last scum dies.

[Alisae]

If Alisae didn't fakeclaim it's like 80% likely that Pooky would have just been elimmed day 4

Whats the difference between teh game ending on day 4 and day 7

[Alisae]

Disagree.
NM can read me extremely well and Pooky doesn't know that.

[Alisae]

I don't care about miseliminating you and midway as long as the last scum dies.

Weren't you getting on my case for doing something similar?

I thought you were scum so I wanted to hold you accountable for your actions.

[Alisae]

Disagree.
NM can read me extremely well and Pooky doesn't know that.

Ok you get the gist of what I'm saying, if someone who didn't know how to read you and Pooky repped in it could have been a quick loss

Disagree. I think I always win the 1v1 between Pooky and me. My arguements are just better.

[Alisae]

see i actually think the opposite. socially like, fine. kind of a dick move but im not gonna hate you for it. but gameplay wise it was really bad to hold onto it day 4 onward.

Okay, Maybe.

[Alisae]

Maybe unclaiming at Day 4 is fine and honestly, I didn't think of it cause I was too tunneled on Cakez.
During D4 in the back of my mind I was worried about Pooky. I felt better when Tammy said that Pooky and I were fine.

[Alisae]

Alisae I don't think this argument will be productive so I'm going to cut it off here
Regardless of the debacle I still really enjoyed this game and this playerlist! So ya

how is it not productive for me?
I think its fine I actually love talking about this stuff

[Alisae]

I was kind of using weaker arguments on purpose because DGB tends to suspect me harder when I make better arguments lol :3

oh so thats why I felt like your arguements just sucked.

[Alisae]

oh so thats why I felt like your arguements just sucked.

yea I was trying to go for the confused and unprepared for 1v1 townie look.

it did not work

I mean tbf, I would probably do the same cause its probably your best way to victory.

I feel like if I wasn't able to articulate a convincing arguement as to why you were scum, THEN we lose the game.

[Alisae]

btw Pooky, I did end up making a PT...

At Night 6.

[Alisae]

Alisae I don't think this argument will be productive so I'm going to cut it off here
Regardless of the debacle I still really enjoyed this game and this playerlist! So ya

how is it not productive for me?
I think its fine I actually love talking about this stuff

b/c I feel like you are not processing my points
like how can you not see that if some players who were not good scumhunters and/or not familiar with you replaced in town might have lost regardless of the strength of your arguments

you don't have to be familiar with me to win this game.

If I can't convince whoever to vote the other guy then we lose and luckily for me, the game was very easy to explain if Pooky was scum and Pooky had a harder time explaining the game explaining it from the pov of me being scum.

[Alisae]

Question to the players: if Tammy was Naive instead of Sane, does town still win this game?

I think its a bit harder, but I also think Tammy doesn't out an Inno on Peta if she recieves all Inno results and I feel like I'm a bit more pressured to unclaim if its the case I think?
I'm not 100% on this

[Alisae]

I'm not sure if I would put a neighborhood in the game and confirm that one person in the hood is scum, but I respect it.

[Alisae]

Question to the players: if Tammy was Naive instead of Sane, does town still win this game?

If we end up at the same F3, yes. However a Tammy/peta/Pooky F3 or possibly Pooky/Ali/peta would've been.... less likely town wins.

If Tammy has to decide between Peta and Pooky thats' tough. I think I can maybe convince Peta to vote Pooky?

[Alisae]

what do you mean to avoid a doc, if there was a doc they would have CC'd

[Alisae]

it doesn't really matter but what is DS doing