Townstumps Mafia (Endgame)

[House]

IC Commuter should basically be a town tree stump with a vote.

[House]

I don't understand how a commuter died.

Commuter was disabled when nk died.

I don't know how scum got two kills.

Oh. Duh.

What scares me is if they were able to choose a killing role such as poisoner or x-shot vig.

If so, this game is already lost.

[House]

Anywho, my only options for votes today are Moongrass & Fey hydra.

[House]

We're at mylo possibly. It's bed time for me. No one do anything rash.

Not possibly, we are.

2 scum still alive, we mislim & they kill = game over.

[House]

How so?
Like, why is Titus off the table?
Only people I’m definitely NOT touching are myself and mastina

You, mastina, Titus, and myself are all town.

I'm betting the game on that.

[House]

@stumps without saying what it is if the answer is no, did the role you chose flip?

[House]

WHY THOUGH??????

You and mastina are confirmed. I'm confirmed to myself. Titus is town.

[House]

WHY IS TITUS TOWN THOUGH
You have been asserting that for most of the game with practically no meat behind it. I’m tired of the bare-bones read! Give me something juicy!

No.

[House]

WHY IS TITUS TOWN THOUGH
You have been asserting that for most of the game with practically no meat behind it. I’m tired of the bare-bones read! Give me something juicy!

No.

To clarify, it's not a matter of won't. It's a matter of can't, but it's based on our interactions (as are most of my reads).

[House]

WHY IS TITUS TOWN THOUGH
You have been asserting that for most of the game with practically no meat behind it. I’m tired of the bare-bones read! Give me something juicy!

No.

Wrong answer.

Okay.

[House]

To be clear, if I'm mislimmed because I refuse to explain a read, it won't break my heart.

I'm happy that I found the answer. Do whatever you feel the need to do.

[House]

I agree that Titus is town.

@Gamma why would Titus kill dgb here?

Because DGB is IC?
It seems like the kills were chosen to wipe out town power as efficiently as possible last night

True but she almost got elimed and dgb was unlikely to vote for her. I would vote anyone in this playerlist except of course you and Mastina before Titus.

I don't believe you.

[House]

Whatever.

[House]

I agree that Titus is town.

@Gamma why would Titus kill dgb here?

Because DGB is IC?
It seems like the kills were chosen to wipe out town power as efficiently as possible last night

True but she almost got elimed and dgb was unlikely to vote for her. I would vote anyone in this playerlist except of course you and Mastina before Titus.

I don't believe you.

What don’t you believe? Gamma and Mastina are confitown and Titus is my strongest unconfirmed tr.

So in your world, Moon and I have to be scum.

Somehow, I doubt you'll support a Moon lim.

[House]

Nobody that's actually trying to gamesolve would ever try to claim that Moon & I are teamed.

Moon buddied the shit out of me for a lot of the game, until I called them scum.

[House]

Fey hydra's reads are literally impossible to believe.

[House]

It's like I'm prescient.

[House]

I have my answer.

I'll wait for Gamma, mastina, and Titus to catch up.

Good night.

[House]

Fey hydra's reads are literally impossible to believe.

This is rich from you

Considering they're calling my biggest buddyer my teammate, you might say it's simple logic.

[House]

Fey hydra's reads are literally impossible to believe.

This is rich from you

Considering they're calling my biggest buddyer my teammate, you might say it's simple logic.

Their Titus TR is infinitely more believable than yours

They HAVE NO reads.

They have knowledge.

[House]

But they could say the same about you

Nobody that actually paid attention to the interactions between Moon and I would think we're teamed.

Do your homework.

[House]

I had no idea who to vote for but moon seems pretty damn townie rn.

and House isn’t making any sense at all.

Called it.

Somehow, I doubt you'll support a Moon lim.

[House]

The funny part is, both of the confirmed town + Titus should be able to easily identify my town game.

Post-game will be lulz if I'm mislimmed.

[House]

If I were NM I would have announced someone I wanted shot but hidden behind someone else. Basically a two for one once it had been uncovered in thread.

Convenient of you to wait for him to be dead to mention that.

[House]

I had no idea who to vote for but moon seems pretty damn townie rn.

and House isn’t making any sense at all.

Called it.

Somehow, I doubt you'll support a Moon lim.

Because her posts today look better than yours.

And your reads conveniently ignore everything that doesn't suit you, like how Moon only scumread me after I called them scum, then put me as a high townread and voted with me on the turn of a dime.

But taking that into account doesn't suit your agenda.

[House]

But they could say the same about you

Nobody that actually paid attention to the interactions between Moon and I would think we're teamed.

Do your homework.

I mean I think it’s likely you and Titus, they’re just so damn pocketed by Titus that’s the only conclusion they’re left with

Are you really that superficial?

Tell me Gamma... what alignment was I when I was difficult in the past?

When I was my most superficially "pro-town", what did I flip?

Knock the rust out.

[House]

oh nevermind

If I were NM I would have announced someone I wanted shot but hidden behind someone else. Basically a two for one once it had been uncovered in thread.

Convenient of you to wait for him to be dead to mention that.

Lol it's a side note on how to do that better for anyone who gets a similar opportunity in future.

Which doesn't negate my point AT ALL.

[House]

I don't understand how you even have a point.

Lame attempt at a discredit.

Give it another go.

[House]

You’ve been pushing me and moon as buddies, what am I supposed to think? Huh?

"Uh-oh, we're caught. Better get him eliminated."

Which is exactly what you're thinking.

[House]

Notice I called the scum team Feys & Moon, and they are both after me. Not actually gamesolving, just reacting to a threat.

[House]

I don't understand how you even have a point.

Lame attempt at a discredit.

Give it another go.

I say it here.

Bet you're happy jjh is out of the way so you don't look so silly trying to reason your fabricated reads.

It comes out there.

[House]

Vote me then.

I honestly don't give a shit.

I got my answer. Not my issue if everybody else has their head shoved elsewhere.

[House]

But they could say the same about you

Nobody that actually paid attention to the interactions between Moon and I would think we're teamed.

Do your homework.

I mean I think it’s likely you and Titus, they’re just so damn pocketed by Titus that’s the only conclusion they’re left with

Are you really that superficial?

Tell me Gamma... what alignment was I when I was difficult in the past?

When I was my most superficially "pro-town", what did I flip?

Knock the rust out.

I at least recall you being willing to play ball in the past as town
You’re being completely obstinate here.

Then you don't recall very accurately.

I played ball as scum. I was a stubborn dick as town because I was didn't know who to trust.

Oh, here's something else for you to use: even though I considered Titus as scum for a bit, she's the only non-confirmed player in this game I haven't voted.

[House]

Notice I called the scum team Feys & Moon, and they are both after me. Not actually gamesolving, just reacting to a threat.

You call repeatedly calling us the team “game solving”? I didn’t have any idea who to vote for until you started pushing me and moon as the scumteam and that’s pretty much all you’ve been doing since day started.

This is how I know you're not gamesolving.

If you were, you'd know I've been hard townreading Titus for a while which means it HAS to be you two.

If you were town, you'd see the logic and try to convince me that I'm wrong on Titus, but you're scum so you're just counterattacking.

[House]

But town!Mia+Maya wouldn’t know YOU’RE town
like, bruh

You're missing the point.

They're not even TRYING to gamesolve. Because they don't have to. Because they know the answers.

[House]

But town!Mia+Maya wouldn’t know YOU’RE town
like, bruh

Think about it Gamma.

Coming into toDay, the scum team had to be in Titus, Moon, Feys, and me.

I'm obviously not going to scumread myself. Right?
I've been hard townreading Titus. Right?

Who are my scumreads, by default?

[House]

I don't actually think Titus is scum tbh

On that, we can agree.

[House]

All I can see is that since this day started you’ve been pushing me as scum with moon and that doesn’t make any sense. So I don’t know why I’d tr that.

Because you're actively ignoring the game state from my perspective.

My Titus townread isn't news to anybody.

That leaves you 2 by default.

[House]

I don't actually think Titus is scum tbh, this is the point in the game where scum distance in case of a bus. I know I'm going to get instavoted but I think house/hydra are the most likely based on the timing of their 180 on each other. Titus is the optimal mislynch bait.

I mean I could be wrong but that's how I would play this mylo as scum.

I’m not buddies with anyone but at least it’s a less insane read than me and you.

You're so full of crap.

If I wasn't calling you and Moon scum together, you'd be attacking me right now for flipping my read on Titus, which I'd literally have to do to have ANY other conclusion.

[House]

I don't actually think Titus is scum tbh, this is the point in the game where scum distance in case of a bus. I know I'm going to get instavoted but I think house/hydra are the most likely based on the timing of their 180 on each other. Titus is the optimal mislynch bait.

I mean I could be wrong but that's how I would play this mylo as scum.

And moon is pushing you with me.

this is the point in the game where scum distance in case of a bus

That must be embarrassing.

[House]

Gamma.

Was I ever sloppy scum in Mylo in the past?

I know the answer. No. I wasn't. I left myself the flexibility to change my reads. I don't corner myself into reads as scum.

Moon and the Feys are literally the only players in this game I can justify voting, regardless of my own alignment.

If I'm scum, that's really fucking sloppy, and I'm insulted if you think I'm that shit as scum when I've carried my teams in the past.

[House]

I at least recall you being willing to play ball in the past as town

Link to a single game when this happened.

I'll be sitting here growing my beard while I wait.

[House]

viewtopic.php?p=6229721#p6229721

I even knew in my first game in the site, lol.

[House]

I can link games too, like the one where scum played such a flawless game and hard bussed their entire team and because I didn’t see any buddies try to stop the wagon on a mafia rolecop no less, I wound up be the game-losing miselim.

Cool story.

[House]

Tbf your argument doesn't hold up since you didn't know there was a Hider in the game until yesterday, therefore it's unlikely being this cornered was intentional.

Oh look. Another case of not even trying to gamesolve.

I'm the one that suggested Weak Hider back in pregame, and got called out for knowing too much about what N_M was before anyone else.

Scum.

[House]

Between the IC and NM's results (and townreading him because I believe him), that leaves you, Titus, cyrus, moon, and jjh.

Like, if I'm annoying to this in the game thread, there's no way I don't leave myself contingencies if I was scum.

My eyes. They roll.

[House]

Between the IC and NM's results (and townreading him because I believe him), that leaves you, Titus, cyrus, moon, and jjh.

Like, if I'm admitting to this in the game thread, there's no way I don't leave myself contingencies if I was scum.

My eyes. They roll.

Edit.

[House]

Look at the scum scrambling lmao. It's probably just the hydra and house. Especially if titus flips town.

House tries to get some momentum on cyrus, no luck so he redirects back to old suspects. Hydra instavotes me for having them in my poe, but doesn't blink at House's shade...and now the nom kill makes sense. The no kill probably because both forgot to put a kill through.

Jjh this is the best reason yet to townread cyrus. We get Titus limmed and it really is auto win after that regardless of alignment.

NM is coming over tonight and we're going to make s'mores while telling ghost stories by the camp fire and he's going to tell everyone the next day what a great host I am.

Like, this is where I'm literally leaking my belief that he's a Weak Hider.

[House]

Why, do you have some ability to fool his ability?

Your desperation is showing.

There's no tampering with his results.

Tada!

[House]

How do you know?

Because I'm an Informed Town Godfather.

And this is where Gamma called me out.

[House]

Incredibly. That's why if he lives you get him to claim, because I think you know what his role is and how it can wrongly confirm you.

His results can't be tampered with, and your team can't kill him.

You know you can't kill him, because you tried to last night.

Oshi~

Heyo~

[House]

Lol! Is that what happened?? NM are you bulletproof? Because only scum would know they failed. Please keep talking house.

Try again.

It's not a modifier. It's a mechanic of the role.

Lolol

[House]

But town!Mia+Maya wouldn’t know YOU’RE town
like, bruh

Think about it Gamma.

Coming into toDay, the scum team had to be in Titus, Moon, Feys, and me.

I'm obviously not going to scumread myself. Right?
I've been hard townreading Titus. Right?

Who are my scumreads, by default?

You’re trying to call Feys scum for not trying to work with you, but what incentive exists for town!them to do so when they don’t think you’re town?

If they were town, they'd see I have no logical alternative to my reads.

Seriously, get yourself unstuck would you?

[House]

Lol! Is that what happened?? NM are you bulletproof? Because only scum would know they failed. Please keep talking house.

Try again.

It's not a modifier. It's a mechanic of the role.

Lolol

FYI I lol’ed at that because you were both right and wrong (I figured you meant Hider regardless of whether that was the role or not)
Before Hider got normalized the “dying to scum” part was a mechanic of the role, but post-normalization it generally will include the Weak Modifier to indicate that

Stumps wouldn't waste a choice pick on a regular Hider.

Also, NM wouldn't have the confidence to call players confirmed town unless he was Weak

That's just common sense.

I wasn't wrong at all.

[House]

But town!Mia+Maya wouldn’t know YOU’RE town
like, bruh

Think about it Gamma.

Coming into toDay, the scum team had to be in Titus, Moon, Feys, and me.

I'm obviously not going to scumread myself. Right?
I've been hard townreading Titus. Right?

Who are my scumreads, by default?

You’re trying to call Feys scum for not trying to work with you, but what incentive exists for town!them to do so when they don’t think you’re town?

If they were town, they'd see I have no logical alternative to my reads.

Seriously, get yourself unstuck would you?

Sure, but what motive do they have to convince you otherwise on Titus, when they themselves TR Titus?

All the more reason for them to see why I can't possibly consider anyone else scum but them!

[House]

I've been hard townreading Titus since mid-Day 2.

It makes sense for scum!Feys to now townread her as well and claim the team is me and their buddy but push me "In case they're wrong on Moon".

[House]

I'm standing right here, Gamma.

Find me.

[House]

You really want to know why I townread Titus?

Fine.

She reached out to me.

She has NEVER, EVER reached out to me as scum, and she batted away my attempts to reach out to her when I was town and she was scum.

She doesn't always teach out to me as town, but when she reaches out, she flips green.

This means I can no longer rely on it, but there you go.

[House]

Honestly what bothers me is the fact you two agree on moon but are both pushing each other way harder than moon
Feels like you’re both trying to rearrange deck chairs on the Titanic

I haven't rearranged shit. My reads have been on lock all day.

[House]

Don't ever let me think you have any ability to read me in the future, mkay?

[House]

Would you not think it possible she noticed that trend herself and actively tried to play ahead of the curve on it?
I feel like in past years she’s become more self-aware of her meta, especially her scum meta

Sure was aware back then.

She wasn't stupid.

Took ME a while to catch on, though.

[House]

Honestly what bothers me is the fact you two agree on moon but are both pushing each other way harder than moon
Feels like you’re both trying to rearrange deck chairs on the Titanic

I haven't rearranged shit. My reads have been on lock all day.

It’s a metaphor for doing things that are ultimately of little consequence, since no matter what position the deck chairs on the Titanic are in the iceberg renders it all moot
It feels like regardless of you two’s alignments this shouting match isn’t really going to change hearts and minds, at least between the two of you, which it seems is y’all’s aim currently

I'm not stupid enough to think I can get scum to scumread themselves.

That's just silly.

[House]

Honestly what bothers me is the fact you two agree on moon but are both pushing each other way harder than moon
Feels like you’re both trying to rearrange deck chairs on the Titanic

Also, this is highly inaccurate.

I'm pretty much responding to whomever might be posting.

[House]

Would you not think it possible she noticed that trend herself and actively tried to play ahead of the curve on it?
I feel like in past years she’s become more self-aware of her meta, especially her scum meta

Sure was aware back then.

She wasn't stupid.

Took ME a while to catch on, though.

She took until one specific game AFTER I started playing to bother messing with the “Titus never busses” meta point
So like, I think she’s the type to not blow a meta load until it has a real payoff

There was no payoff in blowing her meta on d2.

[House]

Would you not think it possible she noticed that trend herself and actively tried to play ahead of the curve on it?
I feel like in past years she’s become more self-aware of her meta, especially her scum meta

Sure was aware back then.

She wasn't stupid.

Took ME a while to catch on, though.

She took until one specific game AFTER I started playing to bother messing with the “Titus never busses” meta point
So like, I think she’s the type to not blow a meta load until it has a real payoff

There was no payoff in blowing her meta on d2.

How so?

D1 was a strategic Bus.

Scum were very much in control of the game with the ability to multikill and had town happily deluded because of the red flip.

There was literally nothing to gain by reaching out to me when

1) she wasn't in danger
2) I don't have the clout to influence the game that I used to since I've just come back

The reachout was purely for my benefit. Not hers.

[House]

I’ve wanted Titus dead since day 2.
When will it happen?

That depends.

How intent are you on losing?

[House]

Well house, I'm town so from my PoV there's 2/3 scum and I don't like losing. So if you're town too then you either have a bad read on Titus or you're scum.

You should've told Mia to say that.

Would've been more believable.

[House]

Please AtE harder.
I care so much for it.

That's not AtE.

That's snark.

Recalibrate, bruh.

[House]

I'm literally reaching out because I don't want to lose. I don't want to pick the wrong 1/3.

But like, this is 99% of my problem with you.

You spent so much of the game acting like you knew me, just to disabuse me off the notion when I started speculating on who you might be.

Behavior I found acceptable conning from someone I'm familiar with was off-putting coming from a stranger.

"I don't know you like that."

[House]

I'm literally reaching out because I don't want to lose. I don't want to pick the wrong 1/3.

But like, this is 99% of my problem with you.

You spent so much of the game acting like you knew me, just to disabuse me of the notion when I started speculating on who you might be.

Behavior I found acceptable coming from someone I'm familiar with was off-putting coming from a stranger.

"I don't know you like that."

Sigh. Edit.

[House]

I'm literally reaching out because I don't want to lose. I don't want to pick the wrong 1/3.

But like, this is 99% of my problem with you.

You spent so much of the game acting like you knew me, just to disabuse me off the notion when I started speculating on who you might be.

Behavior I found acceptable conning from someone I'm familiar with was off-putting coming from a stranger.

"I don't know you like that."

Ok sorry if I was too familiar, I like to mess around and didn't mean to make you uncomfortable. That doesn't mean I'm scum.

It wasn't off-putting in a personal way as much as it was in a game-related way.

When friends buddy me, it's just banter between friends. When strangers do it, it's sus because it can be manipulative.

[House]

My vote is symbolically on the Feys.

[House]

It's bed time for me.

[House]

Oh and Titus and House openly PR hunting in thread and exposing N_M as a hider for some reason? Where the fuck is the town motivation in that?

A good question!

One which I am tempted, very oh so much tempted, to back with a vote.

[House]

Oh and Titus and House openly PR hunting in thread and exposing N_M as a hider for some reason? Where the fuck is the town motivation in that?

A good question!

One which I am tempted, very oh so much tempted, to back with a vote.

You need to read me as mastin2, because you're missing all the markers as mastina.

[House]

How come scum got two shots? Or is one something like a poisoner?

I’m just wondering how that goes with the normal-sequence design philosophy that this game purportedly was using

Yeah there's absolutely zero ways for scum to have a multikill in Normals, when this game did have what could literally only be a scum nightkill.

Either Jingle had a critical fail of research when looking into Normals given that there is no allowed scum role that would allow them to get two kills, or he diverged from the Normal roles when designing the scumteam's roles.

Either way I gotta admit I'm a bit disappointed--Jingle could've balanced the commute IC + weak hider combo without giving the scum a non-Normal role (meaning that if he did give scum a killing role that makes it not Normal, it was a poor design choice); Jingle should know that killing roles for scum are not Normal so if he thought "oh a vig is normal so scum having a 1x vig is Normal" then he had a critical research failure.

Basically, there's 100% a scum killing role of some sort, which is 100% not Normal, which is disappointing because the town roles aren't such that Jingle would NEED to diverge from Normal roles on the scumteam to balance them. Thus the disappointment in Jingle having done so.

Not to mention, scum got to choose their own roles & duplicates were expressly allowed, so there may be another 2nd kill tonight.

[House]

Maybe the IC self destructs at mylo? Lol

Between this and trying to convince people scum "forgot" to nk on d3, your muddying of the waters is really keeping me sus.

[House]

It's a joke hence the Lol. It's actually not a bad idea for a game.

Not much of one. Their role was revealed upon flip.

[House]

Not much of an idea or not much of a joke?

Uh, correct.

[House]

I mean, kinda bastard to have hidden mechanics, which would be the only way it would be an effective regulator.

[House]

I've got a dream, which I'm happy to discuss post game.

It's fine to have a dream, but you have to wake up to pursue it.

[House]

Or how about House. As all his posts feel agenda based so far. And they’re much more dangerous since they always try to control the narrative.

Idgaf. Do what you want.

[House]

@nsg I think toDay would be a good time for you to bow out.

It may well be town's last chance at getting the bonus from you doing so

[House]

@House, For both of us to be town, like your position is, the hydra and moongrass must be scum. Nancy's defense of me looks quite similar to the large theme we just finished. So where are the differences? Why does Nancy pocket me here?

I wouldn't know. I wasn't in that game, and I don't read dead games for comparisons.

Even if I did, in mostly checked out. I was in it to get an answer. I'm there. It's up to y'all to find your way there.

[House]

@House, For both of us to be town, like your position is, the hydra and moongrass must be scum. Nancy's defense of me looks quite similar to the large theme we just finished. So where are the differences? Why does Nancy pocket me here?

I wouldn't know. I wasn't in that game, and I don't read dead games for comparisons.

Even if I did, I'm mostly checked out. I was in it to get an answer. I'm there. It's up to y'all to find your way there.

[House]

I think he was at some point, did it change?

Lack of gamesolving.

A quick iso of Gamma shows that he told me earlier today that he thinks it's me and Titus.

Moon isn't trying to do any footwork at all, because they have nothing to figure out.

[House]

I have nothing left to solve, so...

[House]

If you tr us and sr Titus, that obviously means you think House is her buddy, so why not push him and Titus? Why only Titus?

House I'm 100% sure on, I'm still pushing Titus to make dead sure she's scum too. You also already can see house is scum but you're townreading Titus so that's where I need to change your read, that's pretty self-explanatory.

Yes read it again.

This post tells me that Moongrass doesn't actually think Titus is scum.

[House]

If you tr us and sr Titus, that obviously means you think House is her buddy, so why not push him and Titus? Why only Titus?

House I'm 100% sure on, I'm still pushing Titus to make dead sure she's scum too. You also already can see house is scum but you're townreading Titus so that's where I need to change your read, that's pretty self-explanatory.

Yes read it again.

This post tells me that Moongrass doesn't actually think Titus is scum.

Like I hate to agree with anything House says but you’ve been trying to get me to vote a slot you’re not even sr if I’m understanding you correctly?

...

What the actual fuck?

[House]

VOTE: Mia & Maya Fey

Boring.

[House]

Lol at people saying I'm frozen scum.

I don't freeze as scum.

I just lose interest as town when I have nothing left to play for and the game is not moving forward.

Just put your votes down.

[House]

Whatever.

[House]

@House, For both of us to be town, like your position is, the hydra and moongrass must be scum. Nancy's defense of me looks quite similar to the large theme we just finished. So where are the differences?

Why does Nancy pocket me here?

Because you're still invested and I'm not, so you're set up to be the easy mislim toMorrow if the vote swings to one of them toDay.

[House]

Of the Feys and Moongrass, Moongrass is the easy scumread and the Feys are set up to endgame.

That's why I don't want them to get there.

[House]

Anyone thinking I'm scum when I've PoE'd the scumteam down to exactly two has their head in the clouds.

Scum doesn't paint themselves in this corner. They need flexibility, so theyleave themselves rationale to vote anyone while campaigning to eliminate town.

I'm doing none of that. Enjoy losing if you can't see that.

[House]

It's like nobody is even trying to see this game from my perspective.

Titus is town.

mastina's reads are in the trash right now because they have other things going on right now that are far more important than the game, but the game is suffering for it.

Norwe obviously can't read me.

Titus is paranoid because I'm not.

...idk wtf is going on with Gamma. He's who I'd be paranoid about right now if he wasn't literally confirmed town.

Moon & Feys, well, they're just scum doing what they have to do to win.

[House]

Or would you prefer the far more simpler explanation: Titus is probably town and you’re probably not.

Right.

You're literally telling me to ignore my role pm to fit your agenda.

[House]

You have scumlocked the two players who have anti-partner associatives through the freaking roof

You keep saying this. It's almost like there was a strategy involved.

[House]

You have scumlocked the two players who have anti-partner associatives through the freaking roof

You keep saying this. It's almost like there was a strategy involved.

Yes you’re absolutely right, Radiant Cowbells ought to be taking lessons here.

All you care about is taking jabs to sell your narrative, so that leaves me zero incentive to reconsider.

[House]

All you care about is taking jabs to sell your narrative, so that leaves me zero incentive to reconsider.

I say it here.

Whatever dude, you clearly don’t want to listen for whatever reasons.

It comes out there.

[House]

@gamma where would you vote right now if you had to?

Probably House given his play atp feels a bit like he’s hammersitting
Like he seems to forget part of doing well in endgame scenarios is the “convincing people your reads are right” part, which isn’t atrocious, but he feels a bit too passive at this point for even that

Dude wtf is even won't with you?

How can I possibly be hammer sitting when I'm the only person in the game with a vote on anyone?

[House]

@gamma where would you vote right now if you had to?

Probably House given his play atp feels a bit like he’s hammersitting
Like he seems to forget part of doing well in endgame scenarios is the “convincing people your reads are right” part, which isn’t atrocious, but he feels a bit too passive at this point for even that

Dude wtf is even wrong with you?

How can I possibly be hammer sitting when I'm the only person in the game with a vote on anyone?

[House]

a bit too passive

And I will be for a while.

I'm walking on eggshells because I don't want to cross any lines. Not that being aggressive in itself crosses lines, but i have to learn how to keep that aspect of the game from making ME cross lines.

Until/unless I do, this is what you get.

[House]

Gamma, I told you why I townread Titus.

That townread leaves only 2 other players that can possibly be scum.

Don't act like I'm being obtuse. You're the one using lolwtf thought processes, and you're literally confirmed town.

[House]

There is a slight non-zero possibility that the clears could potentially have been messed with

Wrong.

Hider procs before JK/roleblocker type roles.

As scum, it serves your win con to undermine town clears.

[House]

If I was in house's place, I would seriously consider a moon/mastina team if he resets his read on you.

I have zero problems with a Moon lim.

I don't care which one of them goes first.

Nobody has given me a viable theory as to why NM's results could have been tampered with.

[House]

Here let's resolve this.

Mod: Can a hider be jailkept or roleblocked if such roles exist?

I've been Hider & played with Hiders.

Actions directly on the Hider ALWAYS failed because they were not at home to be targeted.

So if Jingle treats it differently, it's news to me.

The only possible way that I can even think of to tamper with NM would be a role stopper targeting his target? Maybe? I'm not even sure about that.

[House]

Oh shit.

Yeah, that changes my whole world.

[House]

UNVOTE:

[House]

Sorry, I'm just so used to this implementation:

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/da ... role=Hider

[House]

I can easily buy into the theory that N_M was jailed/blocked because he was targeting scum, and 2-ferred the next night when he targeted town.

That world makes a lot of sense.

[House]

SEE?

TITUS IS F@#&$ING TOWN!

[House]

I'm gonna laugh my ass off if we find out in post-game that NM targeted and false cleared both members of the scum team.

It's not an impossible scenario, either. Gamma has been reading me extremely weirdly and I'm trying really hard to write it off to my extended absence and lower intensity townplay.

[House]

If either Mia and Maya Fey or Moongrass were scum, all they would need to do to win the game is to sheep me.

This is incorrect. Scum need two townies to misvote. Moongrass sheeping you would not result in a scum win.

You would get moongrass (scum) house (scum) and you (town) in that scenario.

That scenario is literally impossible.

[House]

The odds of Gamma being a fake clear are much slimmer than mastina. NM is a known troll. I don't see scum deducing he actually was a PR.

I agree that it's much less likely.

That's why I'll find it hilarious in post-game if that's actually what happened.

It's not outside the realm of possibility, though. I advocated for the role pre-game and suspected that's what he was on d1.

Not something I'm willing to bet the farm on, though.

[House]

House, aside from Gamma scum, do you see a scenario where Moongrass is town?

It would pretty much require my lolscenario to be right.

I was townreading the Fey's, that never changed. They only entered my limpool via PoE. It was extremely frustrating to be at odds with my own logic, but I was writing it off to a bad read.

[House]

The odds of Gamma being a fake clear are much slimmer than mastina. NM is a known troll. I don't see scum deducing he actually was a PR.

Btw I can shut down the line of paranoia thought with one sentence proving that I am conftown here but I am deliberately refraining from doing so just to see who buys into the paranoia and tries selling it as a potentially legit thing.

That would be me.

I own every post I've made.

[House]

i don't buy that house townread us than suddenly we're in poe without considering a misclear off the hider

Read 3935 again.

Actually pay attention instead of skimming.

[House]

i don't buy that house townread us than suddenly we're in poe without considering a misclear off the hider

Read 3935 again.

Actually pay attention instead of skimming.

dont care tbh

Then there's no reason for anyone else to care what

you

believe since you are actively choosing ignorance, tbh.

[House]

i don't buy that house townread us than suddenly we're in poe without considering a misclear off the hider

Read 3935 again.

Actually pay attention instead of skimming.

dont care tbh

Then there's no reason for anyone else to care what

you

believe since you are actively choosing ignorance, tbh.

(Not talking to you, Nancy. I don't want you to think I'm confusing you two.)

[House]

I can't see Gamma as scum.

I mean, I can see it as a possibility based on how he's interacted with me, but that behavior can also be explained by other factors, so...

Not something I'm willing to put a vote on.

[House]

@house find me a scum that isnt you or gamma and we'll consider the case

I've been complaining the entire game about mastina.

I put my concerns aside when she was "cleared", but her play had been unendingly frustrating when trying to consider it coming from a town perspective.

She's judging superficial actions as scummy/town without digging down to find scum intent, and I've only known her to do that as scum (but admittedly limited sample size + extended time away == unreliable as a statement of fact).

I've been howling for Moon's head on a platter forever.

[House]

We're going to hit a problem here Mia. I might compromise on House but I'm never voting Gamma. The more I talk about this, the firmer I become in Moongrass scum.

Nah fam.

I ain't trying to lose right when I've found renewed interest in the game.

[House]

Thanks House, I really needed people to be 100% sure I'm not your buddy.

The only person that's been buddying here is you, Moon.

*mic drop*

[House]

House why'd you hammer cyrus early?

I also noticed that you never followed up on this question when I skipped it during my catch up.

It's almost like you didn't really care about the answer and only wanted to poke me with a stick.

[House]

House why'd you hammer cyrus early?

I also noticed that you never followed up on this question when I skipped it during my catch up.

It's almost like you didn't really care about the answer and only wanted to poke me with a stick.

I stopped caring what you thought when I was certain you're scum.

B/S.

It was a probative question that could have either been used to build a wagon on me or townclear me based on the interactions following it.

You just had no incentive to pursue it.

[House]

Please do keep setting up these attempts to make me look like your buddy. It's mildly amusing.

Hi buddy.

VOTE: Moongrass

I'm gonna bus now. Okay?

Glad we had this talk.

[House]

How polite of you to ask first

COMPLETE lack of paranoia about having inaccurate reads and scum possibly being able to quick hammer noticed.

[House]

How polite of you to ask first

COMPLETE lack of paranoia about having inaccurate reads and scum possibly being able to quick hammer noticed.

Lmfao. Who are the two scum that are going to come quickhammer?

mastina, for one.

But you're safe because it's not like you're going to hammer yourself even if she does bus you.

[House]

Hydra could still possibly be scum but the only people left are confirmed town so mathematically, it's impossible there's two scum outside my wagon.

Now look who's not even reading the game.

[House]

I've read. I've stated I believe both Gamma and mastina are confirmed town. Maybe you should get some glasses.

Titus JUST beat me over the head with facts proving that NM's results were subject to fuckery, and it was pretty widely known he was an investigative role on d2.

Roleblocking him on N2 provided a "clear" on mastina by preventing him from visiting her.

Your buddy lost her free pass.

[House]

I townread mastina independently of the clear so I still believe she is town, and more than likely not, confirmed town.

Confirmed town is a mech clear. She's not.

I literally am mechanically cleared.

Not_Mafia investigated me with a Weak Hider N2.

People have pointed out that there are scum roles that could block a hider hiding behind scum saving them, but literally every single role that could block a weak hider hiding behind scum from death runs into the same problem. And that problem is why I am conftown, because there is no way to explain the problem AND me not being conftown. You can only explain one, or the other, and if you explain me as being not-conftown you're left with the glaring problem.

I don't see that at at all.

Not_Mafia crumbs visiting you.
Scum partner jailkeeps you.
Scum no kill.
Result: Fake clear on mastina.

I think it's more likely they chose some sort of delayed kill mechanism over NK, which is why we had 2 deaths last night

[House]

I townread mastina independently of the clear so I still believe she is town, and more than likely not, confirmed town.

Confirmed town is a mech clear. She's not.

I literally am mechanically cleared.

Not_Mafia investigated me with a Weak Hider N2.

People have pointed out that there are scum roles that could block a hider hiding behind scum saving them, but literally every single role that could block a weak hider hiding behind scum from death runs into the same problem. And that problem is why I am conftown, because there is no way to explain the problem AND me not being conftown. You can only explain one, or the other, and if you explain me as being not-conftown you're left with the glaring problem.

I don't see that at at all.

Not_Mafia crumbs visiting you.
Scum partner jailkeeps you.
Scum no kill.
Result: Fake clear on mastina.

I think it's more likely they chose some sort of delayed kill mechanism over NK, which is why we had 2 deaths last night

3 deaths*

2 targets.

[House]

I think it's more likely scum shot NM directly. Occams razor blah blah.

Mia how do you townread this?

Moon is jumping through hoops spewing blatant impossibilities attempting to muddy the water.

[House]

I think it's more likely scum shot NM directly. Occams razor blah blah.

Mia how do you townread this?

Moon is jumping through hoops spewing blatant impossibilities attempting to muddy the water.

It's not a blatant impossibility that scum shot Not_Mafia. It's unlikely but not impossible.

Actually it is.

Mod confirmed that was well.

Killing actions against him fail as long as he's targeting another player.

Also, for that ridiculous theory to hold water, 2 mafia players targeted 3 town in one night.

If that were possible, they'd have waited for MyLo+1 to instawin.

[House]

VOTE: House

Get over yourself, koba.

[House]

I think it's more likely scum shot NM directly. Occams razor blah blah.

Mia how do you townread this?

Moon is jumping through hoops spewing blatant impossibilities attempting to muddy the water.

It's not a blatant impossibility that scum shot Not_Mafia. It's unlikely but not impossible.

Actually it is.

Mod confirmed that was well.

Killing actions against him fail as long as he's targeting another player.

Also, for that ridiculous theory to hold water, 2 mafia players targeted 3 town in one night.

If that were possible, they'd have waited for MyLo+1 to instawin.

Right, so if scum suspected NM was an investigator but not hider, they could have targeted him for a kill. The kill would fail because they targeted him while he hid behind mastina.

OK. I was headspacing n3.

[House]

rolestopper also works to make the scum partner untargetable

Which still runs into the same problem; if I were rolestopped N2, then Not_Mafia's hider action would've failed...so where's the scum nightkill?

Rolestopper, roleblocker, jailkeeper, they all run into the exact same problem. You can't invent enough fabrications to justify that hypothetical scum role causing Not_Mafia's hide to fail AND explain the lack of kill from the scum that night.

i think you are clear - my point is against gamma.

This is ridiculous.

If Gamma isn't clear to you, mastina is even less so.

[House]

Right, so if scum suspected NM was an investigator but not hider, they could have targeted him for a kill. The kill would fail because they targeted him while he hid behind mastina.

Yes. But this only works if Not_Mafia's hide was successful.

If Not_Mafia's hide was successful...I am conftown.

If Not_Mafia's hide was unsuccessful and mafia targeted him for a kill...he would have died N2.

He didn't die N2, ergo either his hide succeeded or he wasn't targeted by the mafia nightkill N2.
But there's no other option for the lack of N2 nightkill, which means the most likely scenario is that mafia tried to kill him N2.

The logic behind this is painfully self-evident.

Conveniently ignoring blocking mechanics.

That looks oh so town. /s

[House]

Mod: Can a hider be jailkept or roleblocked if such roles exist?

Explicitly the normal version of the role hider can be both Jailkept and roleblocked, and this is the version of the role used for Not_Mafia. I cannot confirm nor deny whether any variant hiders were used in the creation of the scumteam.

"The Normal version of the Hider is one of the simplest: the Hider, when they use their ability, cannot be killed by actions targeted at them; however, if their target dies as a result of an active killing action (e.g. a factional kill or Vigilante shot), the Hider will also die."

No actions other than killing actions fail against the normal version of hider.

NM may well have been both blocked AND targeted.

This post reads like Jingle considers Hider to be killproof (against direct attack), a passive power, which cannot be roleblocked.

[House]

mastina fighting so hard to try to sell themselves as confirmed town when they know damned well they're not just makes me disbelieve them all the more.

[House]

i don't buy that house townread us than suddenly we're in poe without considering a misclear off the hider

Read 3935 again.

Actually pay attention instead of skimming.

dont care tbh

Then there's no reason for anyone else to care what

you

believe since you are actively choosing ignorance, tbh.

(Not talking to you, Nancy. I don't want you to think I'm confusing you two.)

Okay, is this somehow supposed to make me feel better?

Just clarifying that I was referring to koba and not mistaking his posts for yours.

Get out of your feels.

[House]

@house find me a scum that isnt you or gamma and we'll consider the case

I've been complaining the entire game about mastina.

I put my concerns aside when she was "cleared", but her play had been unendingly frustrating when trying to consider it coming from a town perspective.

She's judging superficial actions as scummy/town without digging down to find scum intent, and I've only known her to do that as scum (but admittedly limited sample size + extended time away == unreliable as a statement of fact).

I've been howling for Moon's head on a platter forever.

What? This is nuts. So your #1 sr is Moon, yet are voting us and possibly sr Mastina? How does any of this make possible sense to you?

ISO me, because you've missed a lot.

[House]

There is a slight non-zero possibility that the clears could potentially have been messed with

Wrong.

Hider procs before JK/roleblocker type roles.

As scum, it serves your win con to undermine town clears.

@Nancy start here and read on until you catch up.

[House]

(Realistically speaking here: I am not voting anyone other than Titus or House here today. Gamma is conftown and even were he not, this is Gamma's towngame anyway so he's not scum.

I don't see a world where both Moongrass and Mia+Maya Fey are scum; I don't see that as being the scumteam here.

So realistically, there is a MINIMUM of one scum in House+Titus. It's still

possible

for one of them to be town, which is why I haven't placed my vote down because IF one is town, I need to make sure I am voting the one that is scum. It's a moot point if both are scum, obv, but IF one is town I need to make sure I vote the one that is scum.)

Re: the bolded, glad to see that unlike House, Mastina’s actually reading the game.

Seriously.

You need to read the fucking game.

[House]

House, aside from Gamma scum, do you see a scenario where Moongrass is town?

It would pretty much require my lolscenario to be right.

I was townreading the Fey's, that never changed. They only entered my limpool via PoE. It was extremely frustrating to be at odds with my own logic, but I was writing it off to a bad read.

[House]

Mod: Can a hider be jailkept or roleblocked if such roles exist?

Explicitly the normal version of the role hider can be both Jailkept and roleblocked, and this is the version of the role used for Not_Mafia. I cannot confirm nor deny whether any variant hiders were used in the creation of the scumteam.

"The Normal version of the Hider is one of the simplest: the Hider, when they use their ability, cannot be killed by actions targeted at them; however, if their target dies as a result of an active killing action (e.g. a factional kill or Vigilante shot), the Hider will also die."

No actions other than killing actions fail against the normal version of hider.

Oh shit.

Yeah, that changes my whole world.

UNVOTE:

Sorry, I'm just so used to this implementation:

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/da ... role=Hider

I can easily buy into the theory that N_M was jailed/blocked because he was targeting scum, and 2-ferred the next night when he targeted town.

That world makes a lot of sense.

CATCH UP NANCY

[House]

I think it's more likely scum shot NM directly. Occams razor blah blah.

Mia how do you townread this?

Moon is jumping through hoops spewing blatant impossibilities attempting to muddy the water.

I don’t understand why this is scummy?

Keep reading, that was my bad. I was thinking of n3 but they were referring to N2.

Bit of crossed wires, there.

[House]

i don't buy that house townread us than suddenly we're in poe without considering a misclear off the hider

Read 3935 again.

Actually pay attention instead of skimming.

dont care tbh

Then there's no reason for anyone else to care what

you

believe since you are actively choosing ignorance, tbh.

(Not talking to you, Nancy. I don't want you to think I'm confusing you two.)

Okay, is this somehow supposed to make me feel better?

Just clarifying that I was referring to koba and not mistaking his posts for yours.

Get out of your feels.

THEIR. Koba’s pronouns are they/their

So good on you for being able to tell us apart then. Pretty impressive since you couldn’t tell me and LLD apart but whatever.

Must be all that extra information you think I have.

[House]

i don't buy that house townread us than suddenly we're in poe without considering a misclear off the hider

Read 3935 again.

Actually pay attention instead of skimming.

dont care tbh

Then there's no reason for anyone else to care what

you

believe since you are actively choosing ignorance, tbh.

(Not talking to you, Nancy. I don't want you to think I'm confusing you two.)

Okay, is this somehow supposed to make me feel better?

Just clarifying that I was referring to koba and not mistaking his posts for yours.

Get out of your feels.

THEIR. Koba’s pronouns are they/their

So good on you for being able to tell us apart then. Pretty impressive since you couldn’t tell me and LLD apart but whatever.

Must be all that extra information you think I have.

In all honesty however, you and LLD weren't exactly using two very different writing styles.

I'm a grammar hound, so little things like one person capitalizing and one not kinda sticks out.

It's not rocket surgery.

[House]

@house find me a scum that isnt you or gamma and we'll consider the case

I've been complaining the entire game about mastina.

I put my concerns aside when she was "cleared", but her play had been unendingly frustrating when trying to consider it coming from a town perspective.

She's judging superficial actions as scummy/town without digging down to find scum intent, and I've only known her to do that as scum (but admittedly limited sample size + extended time away == unreliable as a statement of fact).

I've been howling for Moon's head on a platter forever.

What? This is nuts. So your #1 sr is Moon, yet are voting us and possibly sr Mastina? How does any of this make possible sense to you?

ISO me, because you've missed a lot.

Yes I see you’ve unvoted us and now think Moon/Mastina?

Roger that.

[House]

There is a slight non-zero possibility that the clears could potentially have been messed with

Wrong.

Hider procs before JK/roleblocker type roles.

As scum, it serves your win con to undermine town clears.

@Nancy start here and read on until you catch up.

Are you calling us scum here or not? I did say it was unlikely but possible and you know who else also did, jjh.

I was in that post.

Then things happened, and now I'm not.

You're scum reading me at least in part for my lack of progression on you... which makes sense, because I never did stop toenails you per se.

It's just that PoE made it impossible in my world for you to be town because I'm not used to playing with Hiders today can have results tinkered with.

When Jingle answered Titus, it flipped my table.

[House]

There is a slight non-zero possibility that the clears could potentially have been messed with

Wrong.

Hider procs before JK/roleblocker type roles.

As scum, it serves your win con to undermine town clears.

@Nancy start here and read on until you catch up.

Are you calling us scum here or not? I did say it was unlikely but possible and you know who else also did, jjh.

I was in that post.

Then things happened, and now I'm not.

You're scum reading me at least in part for my lack of progression on you... which makes sense, because I never did stop townreading you, per se.

It's just that PoE made it impossible in my world for you to be town because I'm not used to playing with Hiders today can have results tinkered with.

When Jingle answered Titus, it flipped my table.

Edit

[House]

There is a slight non-zero possibility that the clears could potentially have been messed with

Wrong.

Hider procs before JK/roleblocker type roles.

As scum, it serves your win con to undermine town clears.

@Nancy start here and read on until you catch up.

Are you calling us scum here or not? I did say it was unlikely but possible and you know who else also did, jjh.

I was in that post.

Then things happened, and now I'm not.

You're scum reading me at least in part for my lack of progression on you... which makes sense, because I never did stop townreading you, per se.

It's just that PoE made it impossible in my world for you to be town because I'm not used to playing with Hiders that can have results tinkered with.

When Jingle answered Titus, it flipped my table.

Edit

Damnit sorry. Edit 2

[House]

i don't buy that house townread us than suddenly we're in poe without considering a misclear off the hider

Read 3935 again.

Actually pay attention instead of skimming.

dont care tbh

Then there's no reason for anyone else to care what

you

believe since you are actively choosing ignorance, tbh.

(Not talking to you, Nancy. I don't want you to think I'm confusing you two.)

Okay, is this somehow supposed to make me feel better?

Just clarifying that I was referring to koba and not mistaking his posts for yours.

Get out of your feels.

THEIR. Koba’s pronouns are they/their

So good on you for being able to tell us apart then. Pretty impressive since you couldn’t tell me and LLD apart but whatever.

Must be all that extra information you think I have.

When have you ever played with Koba? And you couldn’t freaking tell I wasn’t LLD despite playing with me in YGM?

I can't find it now, but somewhere koba mentioned they'd be the one posting without capitalization.

Before that point, I honestly had no clue which of you were posting.

[House]

I can't sleep. Ffs can you two not fight about things that don't matter.

Fight about moongrass.
Fight about mastina.
Fight about gamma (for some reason koba thinks he might be scum).

Maybe we can get somewhere then. Nitpicking at each other won't help and will create spite scumreads.

I feel like there might be potential in this interaction with Mia.

Her questioning feels genuine, and I'm optimistic that she's open to reconsider her read of me as long as I respond honestly about where I'm coming from.

I'm not looking for a slap fight. I promise.

[House]

If one of the stumps could please bow out before we lim today that doc shot would be really helpful in {gamma, mastina}

Where did you get information on what the remaining stump gets when one bows out?

[House]

If one of the stumps could please bow out before we lim today that doc shot would be really helpful in {gamma, mastina}

Also, good job agreeing with me about a stump needing to bow out today.

[House]

Get your glasses out.

That's an evasion, not an answer.

[House]

I really feel like Feys are town atp so it’s between House, Titus, and Moon for me.

It's Moon and mastina.

N_M was most likely roleblocked N2 to fake clear her, then jjh shot n3 to also get rid of N_M.

Glad we had this chat.

[House]

I really feel like Feys are town atp so it’s between House, Titus, and Moon for me.

It's Moon and mastina.

N_M was most likely roleblocked N2 to fake clear her, then jjh shot n3 to also get rid of N_M.

Glad we had this chat.

How does moon’s play before the jjh NK factor into this?
Before that, she was pushing jjh + mastina as scum pretty regularly, I can kinda imagine what you’ll say but fuck it I’m asking anyway

It's common scum strategy to distance by including a buddy in their scum reads but pushing for the towny to be eliminated.

[House]

Vote Count 4.02

Mia and Maya Fey (1):

House,

House (0):

Titus (0):

Moongrass (0):

mastina (0):

Gamma Emerald (0):

No Euphemization (0):

Not Voting (5):

, Titus, Moongrass, Gamma Emerald, mastina, Mia and Maya Fey

With 6 alive, it takes

4

to euphemize and

3

to have no euphemization.

The deadline for Day 4 is in (expired on 2021-07-01 01:00:00). At Deadline, currently No Euphemization will occur.

@mod when you get a chance, please update this, thanks.

We have 6 days, so hopefully I will figure this out by then.

Titus and I are voting Moon.

Moon is voting for me.

[House]

I already have--I was on the D1 scum wagon and a huge proponent of it when I don't bus

This bit nagged at me, so I checked out the d1 VC's.

Had you been late into the wagon, I'd agree that it would have been a bus of you were scum, but I think you just got caught up while distancing and couldn't leave the wagon without raising eyebrows because the NK wagon had more fuel than Texaco.

[House]

I will BURN your House down with fire.
KILL HOUSE
KILL HOUSE
KILL HOUSE
KILL HOUSE
KILL HOUSE

I'm gonna love this shit in post-game.

[House]

[House]

Honestly, I'm just ready for this game to be over so I can go join another one since so many players in this one are determined to lose anyway.

[House]

Honestly, I'm just ready for this game to be over so I can go join another one since so many players in this one are determined to lose anyway.

+1

If that's how you feel...

I can't exactly advocate for my own lim because "play to your own win con" and all that, but I wouldn't exactly be heartbroken if you hammered me if/when I reach l-1.

Don't bother waiting for a claim. I'm VT.

[House]

Thank you for the game, everyone.

Thanks for hosting, Jingle!

[House]

I do put most of the blame here on N_M misplaying his role.
You’re supposed to crumb your target and not make it the most obvious thing in the world you’re an hider.

Considering Hider is crippled as hell on this site now, I agree.

In the original implementation, you could claim the role in your first post and scum couldn't do jack all about it.

[House]

Eh, I would have happily supported a Gamma wagon.

His interactions with/about me were unnatural.

Wasn't worth trying to sell it, though. I don't have the WIM that I used to.

[House]

This game was less toxic than some stump games in the past, but I think that's largely a testament to the characters of the people involved, not any measures I took.

I know this is par for the course for the rest of the players in this game, but I'm proud of the fact that I was able to avoid the toxicity that once made me infamous.

[House]

@Jingle can we get access to the maf thread, please?

[House]

Thank you!

[House]

Maf thread is released. Link in the OP and the post with the PT links. Sorry for the delay.

Thank you.