Warrior Cats Mafia [Game Over!]

[Val89]

Meow!

VOTE: Dannflor

[Val89]

VOTE: Bell

[Val89]

I'm not sure I buy bell's explanation, and I'm also reading an twinge of complaint in SS's 31 regarding the mod having potentially screwed over dark forest - and I don't understand why there would be "a hard time parsing this from any alignment." If you are Starclan, there is no need for a sample PM, because the sample PM is sitting in your inbox, no?

Nobody else seems to have had any trouble, and, while yes, I can see how being simultaneously a member of Starclan + a neighbourhood clan might be a source of potential confusion; I am wondering how it is possible to confirm in reply to the role PM ones "role and alignment" whilst that confusion remains. Surely you sort that out there and then while confirming?

What am I missing?

[Val89]

And I don't think confirming role + alignment rules out clan confusion; it's usually easy to tell alignment from coloring + lack of partners/obvious scum info, even if you don't fully understand the factions or the wincon.

It may be obvious from the colouring + lack of partners that your role pm is one belonging to the uninformed majority, but if you were in possession of such, you would also have (and I assume it's acceptable to quote directly now it is given publicly) the wincon given to starclan -

"You and all other members of the protectors of StarClan win when all Dark Forest cats have been eliminated."

- which is patently clear on the issue bell expressed confusion about.

That's my hypothesis - that scum!bell was trying to replicate that selfmeta of 'derping about set up early game and asking the most basic questions that are usually also “town slippy”' without access to a critical piece of information - how the wincon was presented to starclan; and thus failing to realise there was zero, none, nada ambiguity there to 'town slip' over. I don't buy the post-sample explanation that starclan!bell thought "dark forest cats" was some larger descriptor for two or more scum clans without also believing that starclan was some larger descriptor for the town clans, and thus windclan, thunderclan, etc to be pure; and that's never going to pass review. It's nonsensical.

I can easily see town!SS realising this situation has only arisen because of the lack of a publicly posted sample PM, and thus suffer some sort of second-hand guilt on behalf of the dark forest for having a member outed so early over what is arguably a mod mistake, but why defend him now?

[Val89]

@Titus: Can we take your 78 and your earlier reference to being a stay as a claim not to belong to any neighbourhood clan?

[Val89]

why 4 of 5 over 5 of 4?

Might I refer your catself to the daystart pm?

[Val89]

almost certain they would because of how the neighborhoods are set up

Care to explain further?

[Val89]

He asks Norwee if he feels that he is on the same page I am and here I am going ??? because like what kind of question is that???

Trying to get out in front of it, I see.

I find the timing of Alisae soliciting opinions on my ISO more than a touch suspicious. I did ask Norwee if he agreed he was on the same page as Alisae, given that was the justification Alisea gave for townreading Norwee, indicating that I might be suspicious about that read, and almost immediately Alisea is here in main thread trying to advance a case on me.

For reference, since my clan affiliation has now been disclosed:

I mean it's mostly just me trying to get him to spew himself to me. I asked him about FA, Charloux, and Datisi and we seemed to reach similar conclusions.
If anything our only disagreement seemed to be on Charloux whom Norwee (understandably) fos' charloux.

Alisea didn't appear to give much of their own opinions, but I take from this that Alisae agreed with Norwee's takes on FA, and Datisi, but not Charloux, and that was enough to give Norwee a townread.

Those takes? That FA seemed pretty townie for calling out Charloux (while Alisea thinks Charloux is townie, since they are disagreeing with Norwees fos there), and Datisi was null.

Those takes were given after Alisea asked Norwee, and only Norwee, very leading questions that amounted to "What is your read on X player based on posts Y and Z", which as you can see from the conclusion given by themselves, focused on a very narrow subset of the player base; and I was very surprised to see Alisea give Norwee a townread on that basis, and I asked Norwee if he thought he was in agreement with Alisea. To be fair, the answer Norwee gave was 'yes', but I made no secret of the fact I had my suspicions there, and to see that quickly manifest in main thread as a case against me is to say the least.

VOTE: Alisea

[Val89]

So i don’t believe this was malicious or unwarranted from Alisae.

I don't believe it was malicious either, but having asked those leading questions, for whatever reason, about a very narrow subset of players, and getting some (as I am sure you admit yourself) fairly weak and non-committal stances on 3 players; on which they admit to having disagree with you on 33% of that tiny sample, to say

Yes he is playing the game and I feel like we are on the same page when it comes to the topics we discussed

is reasoning 'left unexplained' is more generous that I think its deserving. Reasoning is given. It's just obvious crap - and I say again, the timing of Alisea's soliciting opinions on my own ISO in Main thread, directly after I had given an indication I wasn't buying what they were selling in clan chat, is suspicious.

[Val89]

Like idunno I don't get it, if he is town and genuinely thinks I am going to build a case on him, why doesn't he just wait to see how the read develops, or even wait for me to respond to Ceph. It just doesn't add up.

And give up the ability to prosecute someone who is, to me, pretty obvious scum? No thanks.

You seem to be labouring under a misapprehension here. I have you in my sights now.

The beauty or rolling town is that, even if I fail to convince enough of the others that I am the one that goes down today, sheer numbers means my faction can afford my mislim much more than your faction can afford yours. I don't think it'll come to that, but that knowledge is all I need to throw myself in to the crossfire and bring attention to the two of us. You will rue the day you crossed me, she-cat.

[Val89]

I find myself having cooled on both Bell and Alisea overnight. I still think Alisea is the best lead we have, but I am no longer of the opinion that it's as clear cut as I was feeling last night, and its simple a matter of spending the next 9 days trying to convince everyone else of that.

The whole thing that lead me to suspicion on Alisea is around their interactions with Norwee, and I don't think Norwee is the play here. I've paraphrased the interactions in Windclan PT between the two, and initially I did get the general feeling that during the directed, step-by-step questioning of Norwee trying to elicit reads on certain players based on specific posts that Norwee was being slightly evasive; it was clear the two of them were having a thing together, and I wasn't surprised to see Norwee first on the list of Alisea's read list, for "norwee wind tribe" in 216. It was when pushed by Dann to articulate that exactly that meant that I saw Alisea give an answer in 222 that did not gybe with what I was seeing in Windclan.

I think Alisea gave a townread on Norwee as a consequence of what they thought (and are probably correct about) was a successful pocket attempt in Windclan, and wasn't expecting to be made to justify it as far as they were asked to. I understand if you aren't privy to that clan chat, it's difficult to make an assessment on the issue - but I am reasonably confident is saying that I don't see Alisea and Norwee being scum together, and Alisea has given me a lot more to be concerned about that Norwee has.

[Val89]

I find Dannflor's point regarding Charloux in 384 to be persuasive - and to a lesser degree Something_smarts point about the reference to having some sort of role in 416 - and find myself agreeing with the townreads on Charloux. I don't think that is the right place for a wagon either.

I don't see anything that particularly pings me about Marashu from what is evident in this thread. Anyone from Thunder able to give me a TLDR on what's happening in there to want to wagon Marashu, or point me to it if it's already been given and I've missed it?

[Val89]

"actually i've cooled down and i'm no longer that sure of it... but i'm anyway gonna spend the next 9 days trying to convince everyone to kill alisae" is ???

I'm going to assume this was a misunderstanding rather than a deliberate rephrasing, but it was an 'and', not a 'but'. My point was that I still think Alisea is sus, but not the lockscum my attentions were best directed towards pushing to have eliminated for the rest of this dayphase, which is how I felt if you had asked me 12 hours prior.

If we were already at deadline, and I was directing the lim, I would still have picked Alisea as the best chance of hitting scum, but I was thinking my vote would be better served, particularly this early, on an actual wagon rather than a vanity one, and I was evaluating the ones that were forming at the time of the post - I didn't like Charloux because I had been persuaded to treat them as town for now, Marashu I didn't understand and was waiting for clarification, and I had started looking in more detail at Datisi, but real life interceded.

Those were my feelings at the time - I see there has been quite the activity in the meantime, including a theory about a Norwee-Alisae scum pairing, something I had expressly ruled out - so I'll need to go and look if that is still how I feel after looking at it more deeply.

[Val89]

what made you re-evaluate, then? the whole 444 still feels to be talking negatively about ali

I slept on it, nothing much more than that.

I had gone to bed believing Bell had most likely slipped that he hadn't had sight of the starclan wincon in the starclan role pm prior to the posting of the sample, and thus could not be town - and that Alisea had outing themselves as scum, and it just wasn't as obvious to everyone else because a) they hadn't correctly read me as town yet and maybe harboured suspicions about my own motives and b) not everyone saw how it went down in windclan - and thus my task for the next 9 days was to convince everyone else to boot Alisea, flip scum, thus trust me enough to maybe sheep me on to Bell and that was 2 scum done for, ez game.

I had dismissed Mistyx's point about the scum getting fakeclaims in #175 as being not obvious at all, but my cooler head realised I was predisposed to distrust Mistyx because she had rude to me earlier, not because she was actually sus, and if I put that aside and forget who said it - the point, regardless of how likely or not scum getting fakeclaims is, the existence of them does blow my theory regarding bell out the water.

Having realised my emotions had affected the strength of my read on Bell, I looked at Alisae again and realised I still thought them scummy but not the lockscum I thought the night before; and my 294 was pretty cringe in retrospect.

You are correct that 444 is still negative on Ali - it's a matter of degree rather than having changed my mind, and it's an attempt to explain my less-strong but still scumleaning read there in a calmer manner as well as explain why I thought the votes going Norwee's direction were misguided.

[Val89]

I understand if you aren't privy to that clan chat, it's difficult to make an assessment on the issue - but I am reasonably confident is saying that I don't see Alisea and Norwee being scum together

I've re-read in light of Mastina's theory, and I stand by this. I don't see it as scum-scum.

Full disclosure; as I said in 444, my impression was that there was clearly

something

going on between the two, and my initial impression was that Norwee looked slightly sus from the interactions - not enough to say anything, particularly as I've read Norwee incorrectly in the past, and that one of the things that had felt off to me was a reply to Alisae asking if he had anything to work with - paraphrasing - 'just that people hated him', at time I don't recall them catching much flack in main thread, which felt a little manipulative but I didn't want to fuel that if it was genuine (which I guess is why it felt manipulative, thinking about it) - I also got the impression of an element of evasion.

I was interested, but not overly concerned when Alisae said 'I TR Norwee because windclan' - I recognise that others might have different impressions, but when it was when in response to more detailed questioning on the matter that Alisae said "Yes he is playing the game and I feel like we are on the same page when it comes to the topics we discussed" that I had a 'wait, no?' moment, and asked Norwee about it in Windclan. It looks much much more likely scum!Alisae trying to pocket someone they admit they are familiar with in the confines of a neighbourhood, putting out an underdeveloped TR on Norwee in Main thread in consequence of that, and not expecting to be quizzed on it, and when they were, giving an answer that seems reasonable if you weren't there, and not expecting to be challenged on it if you were - particularly not by the only player that 279 makes clear Alisae is unfamiliar with, and has a pretty low opinion of.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think who has played with me that making "rookie scum mistakes" is something that people associate with my scum-play.

I'm trying to see the whole thing through the lens of it being scum-theatre for the rest of the clans benefit and I don't see it. All this was going on before Shiidaji had revealed themselves as a member, and Shiro had made a single contentless post. I guess it's possible scum are informed about the neighbourhoods in a way I'm not considering, but it seems a scum-pairing would not know their audience at the time they (immediately) launched into that act.

I understand that others can't see the interactions and are relying on a second hand description of them - but to the best of my recollection I don't think I've ever been taken in by scum theatre before, and every time I've decided a pairing aren't scum together, I have been correct on the issue.

@mastina: If your view on this game is predicated on a Norwee-Alisae pairing, I would at least have a think about what it means if they weren't. I'm pretty sure about this one.

[Val89]

{Norwee, Alisae, Something_Smart, Titus, KittyTacky} (default team of five) feels a bit too easy to be the right solve.

This is also an issue for me. I asked for confirmation that 394 was a claim of KittyTacky's membership in Windclan and not a mistake since they still haven't posted there, and was told by Norwee is was the most unnecessary question ever, but if that is confirmed, and KT is scum, that means Windclan is both a 6 player clan and one that is absolutely stuffed with Dark Forest cats.

I understand that is a possibility given the nature of random assignment, but I do wonder if that was the case if they would have chosen to play this the way they did.

[Val89]

On the Norwee side of things I'm like 97.5% certain that this is Norwee's style of interacting with scumbuddies, especially when given a neighborhood with them. I swear that I've seen this verbatim from Norwee when Norwee was scum talking about a scumbuddy, but not seen once when Norwee was town.

I'm going to need to see that, given what I am seeing in clan chat.

I'll reiterate: Excluding the above, its appears to me that Mastina has come up with the theory based on my second-hand description of the interactions between the two in Windclan. As the first-party witness to 4 pages, almost from the get go, of those interactions; I am clearly saying that if it is in fact scum theatre, they both deserve an oscar.

I've seen both Alisae and Norwee both mention that Norwee returned to play this game specifically with Alisae, and I checked the queue thread for this game and saw no pre-alignment roll evidence of that fact, I don't really have a reason to distrust it.

I think this is the point that other 2 Windclanners need to come and chime in on this issue, but they both seem to be missing in action currently.

[Val89]

I don’t trust either of you tho.

What about me, then?

I think it's reasonably self-evident the 3 of us aren't some scum-trinity randing into Windclan together, and then deciding our game plan is to come in main thread and compete to desperately bus one or other of us D1; thus at least one of the three of us is town.

I'm ruling out a scum Norwee-Alisae pairing. I've had over 100 hundred posts in Windclan to evaluate that and my mind has been directed to that possibility. I've had a minor suspicion on Norwee, followed by a stronger suspicion on Alisae almost from the start, so I think even pre-Mastina I would be attuned to that possibility. I've not, to the best of my recollection, been taken in by any sort of scum theatre before. You may well doubt the accuracy of my determination on that point, but I think the onus is on anyone who does so to explain why they prefer the testimony of someone who was not a first-hand witness to those posts on their nature over someone who is; particularly when I can't see any scum motivation for me to mislead you on this point even if I were scum.

I know I can't expect anyone to simply take my word for being town, but from my point of view my own alignment means at least 2 of the 3 of us town. My determination at the moment is the most likely scenario we are in is a scum!Alisae by a decent margin; followed behind by a scum!Norwee and the 3 of us being town not too far behind that (if I were to assign numbers to those probabilities for clarity, I would judge it something like 60-25-15).

I think this Norwee-Alisae theory has become a bit of a distraction. I think Alisae is >rand scum at this point, but even so, I don't think it is in our interests to allow the theory that Norwee/Alisae are possibly scum together - which is what I take from posts like "I don't trust either of you tho" - without pushback.

By all means, I don't expect my word on this issue to be treated as gospel, particularly when you don't have access to Windclan PT to evaluate it yourself, but I think if you are going to disregard what I think is an important part of the jigsaw towards solving this game, you might want to say a word or two on why.

[Val89]

I don’t trust either of you tho.

What about me, then?

I think it's reasonably self-evident the 3 of us aren't some scum-trinity randing into Windclan together, and then deciding our game plan is to come in main thread and compete to desperately bus one or other of us D1; thus at least one of the three of us is town.

I'm ruling out a scum Norwee-Alisae pairing. I've had over 100 hundred posts in Windclan to evaluate that and my mind has been directed to that possibility. I've had a minor suspicion on Norwee, followed by a stronger suspicion on Alisae almost from the start, so I think even pre-Mastina I would be attuned to that possibility. I've not, to the best of my recollection, been taken in by any sort of scum theatre before. You may well doubt the accuracy of my determination on that point, but I think the onus is on anyone who does so to explain why they prefer the testimony of someone who was not a first-hand witness to those posts on their nature over someone who is; particularly when I can't see any scum motivation for me to mislead you on this point even if I were scum.

I know I can't expect anyone to simply take my word for being town, but from my point of view my own alignment means at least 2 of the 3 of us town. My determination at the moment is the most likely scenario we are in is a scum!Alisae by a decent margin; followed behind by a scum!Norwee and the 3 of us being town not too far behind that (if I were to assign numbers to those probabilities for clarity, I would judge it something like 60-25-15).

I think this Norwee-Alisae theory has become a bit of a distraction. I think Alisae is >rand scum at this point, but even so, I don't think it is in our interests to allow the theory that Norwee/Alisae are possibly scum together - which is what I take from posts like "I don't trust either of you tho" - without pushback.

By all means, I don't expect my word on this issue to be treated as gospel, particularly when you don't have access to Windclan PT to evaluate it yourself, but I think if you are going to disregard what I think is an important part of the jigsaw towards solving this game, you might want to say a word or two on why.

[Val89]

Val stepping in makes me hesitate only a tiny bit because 3 is a crowd. But still, it just sounds like it's an emotional party back there and I don't walk in the emotional circle.

I'm still catching up, but I am seeing posts by Shiro in Windclan that possibly indicate they mistook the Norwee-Alisae theory as originating from myself, rather than me arguing against it, and Shiro has been extremely clear that it that scenario I am an idiot for having ever considered it.

So, if it helps, you can make that a clear 4.

I understand that probably doesn't change your position here, and Mastina is the one I really want to hear from about this, frankly.

[Val89]

I look at that and my reaction is to think that anyone with half a braincell is going to know that's exactly how it's going to be taken, and scum is going to be conscious about inviting that scumread. It gets WIFOMy very quickly.

[Val89]

i don't think it's necessarily a thing you have to wifom you just have to consider why would they handle it like that as town

why would they just naked vote without at least commenting on their read changing at all

and if it was for the reason discussed earlier why didn't they move their vote when i first brought it up

And I take the exact opposite position on that - why would

scum

naked vote when a word of explanation might otherwise head off suspicion they ought to know would otherwise arise?

Doing it this way screams out the not-really-give-a-shit-how-it-looks attitude I find from town, unless you are doing it deliberately to

appear

that way, which is why I say it's WIFOM.

[Val89]

mastina came into our hood and immediately locked town datisi/catboi/myself because we were vibing

When was this?

I'm interested if there has been any (substantive) hood activity since 646.

[Val89]

she has posted only a couple times in the hood since that post, val

Like, actual posts that indicate she is at least somewhat aware of what's happening in the game; or prodges?

[Val89]

Mastina probably too.

I'm not convinced a wagon on Mastina will force her back to the table if she tied up IRL.

I do have want to see that happen before a flip, however. 1121 is odd, given what I've been saying, as has Shiro, and has FA; but the door is open currently for her to have not simply seen any of it.

[Val89]

Scum would know the setup immediately from having membership in as little as two hoods. It doesn't take a genius to see a neighborhood that's "thunder clan", see a different one for a different clan, and then figure out that there's going to be four total clans. And if there's four total clans, membership would be loosely equal between them.

That, aside from the fact that the fewer are in a 'hood, the better for the theater.

My point wasn't that they wouldn't know how many were in the hood - it was that they didn't know who the audience was.

So, say you are right and I'm just a gullible little newbie who has been taken in, and I'll have a look at that game next to see if that changes my mind any, but what would have happened if say YOU had been the hidden member of Windclan?

It's not that they think "We can fool Shiro and Val", it's that if this was scum theatre, they went in thinking "we can fool ANYONE". It was well in swing before Shiidaji/T3 revealed themselves to be the other member, and before there was enough pieces in Main thread to have an idea of who was left it could be.

[Val89]

Alright. It's an interesting exercise, but it loses a lot on nuance in the process, because I think some of these would be more properly described as null. Cephrir in particular is one I don't think I would have written either and felt the same.

ALIVE

Alisae: scum
catboi: scum
Charloux: town
Datisi: scum
NorwegianboyEE:town
Bell: scum
KittyTacky: scum
Dannflor:town
Mistyx: scum
SCRRRDBEAR: town
Titus: town
fireisredsir: town
mastina: scum
Frozen Angel: scum
Cephrir: town
Marashu: town
Shiro: town
Something_Smart: town
Val89: town
Shiidaji: scum
PenguinPower:town

[Val89]

VOTE: Mastina

[Val89]

Val thought I was the weakest slot in the hood

I don't recall saying this...

[Val89]

Yes, absolutely no one is saying they shouldn’t be given time to claim their role.

Actually, that might be incorrect. Unless I am misunderstanding something, I think Alisae is advocating the position there is no need to wait for the hammer in Windclan.

[Val89]

No, T3 was a separate thing.

Alisae has been wanted to get a flip - mastina preferably - and has been openly moving their vote around when its clear there is "no interest in flashwagon"s for the last 2 or 3 real life days, so it's a consistent position, and it's one I have some sympathy towards in any case. I find D1 a bit of a chore in these large games myself.

[Val89]

For instance, May I point you to eir posting starting here?

At that time there were--and this part is going to blow your mind--five? players in that PT. With three of them as scum.

Alisae literally did scum theater for two town players.

And then after the MathBlade elimination, it gets even better.

It became three town players to two scum players.
Alisae(A2), QuantumLeap scum.
Bulbazak, Titus, Ginngie town. (Creature too, I think?) (It was 5 after Ginngie died. Creature got swapped out but was still town brought in.)

Literally two scum three town in a neighborhood.

If you think Alisae wouldn't do theater, e absolutely would.

Thank you for showing me this game. You have me convinced; totally convinced....that you 'intuition' on the matter can't be trusted at all.

I've looked at the interactions between A2 and QuantumLeap, and with QL predecessor. Where is the scum theatre? There is basically no interaction between the two. It's a night and day difference between how those two slots interacted with each other and how Norwee-Alisae interacted in WindClan. In fact, its much closer with how Alisae interacted with Ginngie - and almost EXACTLY matches how A2 and nancy were together, once that account turns up - and was a scum-town.

You can not be correct that Alisea-Norwee are scum together. I could be wrong on either or both of my reads on those players, but they are NOT scum together, and if showing me this game was supposed to change my mind on the issue, it's done the exact opposite.

[Val89]

Bell
Titus
catboi
Norwee
Bear
fire
S_S
Val
——————————————- [Cephrir, PP and Shiro are floating somewhere around here]
Datisi
Alisae
Dannflor
Charloux
Mistyx
KT

EBWOP

That list looks a lot more reasonable that I was expecting.

[Val89]

the takes they have don't really feel real tho

What takes are we talking about here?

We've not got much, and there isn't anything extra in Windclan, but a fair bit of what he said has been thoughts and feelings I've had at points in the game, even if I have moved on since, which seems to me would more closely fit the model of uninterested townie.

Take, for example to reasoning, on Titus: I know it's something that's taken some pushback, including from Titus herself, but it was a feeling I had and discussed in Windclan before either Titus or T3 joined.

[Val89]

i don't think the reasoning expressed about titus matches up with her placement on the readlist and its hard to believe that reason, while fine on its own, is enough to make titus a 2nd to top townread.

Yeah, I can see that actually.

I do wonder though if T3 is forcing themselves to distinguish between reads and put them in an ordered list more than they ought. The top read there, Bell, was settled by the end of page 25 according to the very little extra bits of discussion we've had in Windclan, and when questioned only really had vibes, agreement with a case on Datisi and a sense of genuineness (which I also takes as 'vibes') as reasons - which seems to say it isn't taking very much to gain an extreme spot on the list, and perhaps that also applies to Titus and the rest.

You can decide for yourself whether forcing that ordered list, if that is what is happening, is scummy or not but I'm pretty sure I've pushed a town T3 for similar reasons in the past and been burnt enough to not want to flip him here and now.

[Val89]

who do you want to flip, val?

I'm having a discussion about it in Windclan right now. My strongest scum read is still probably Alisae, and my second is Kitty, but the fact that I

thought

the two wanted to kill each other was making me scratch my head and wonder if I was on the wrong track; but Alisae is telling me things in Windclan (in particluar, that they FOS Catboi for pushing on KT today) that I can't make sense, and I'm trying to get there with them now.

I'm also not too keen on Mistyx and I'm discussing that read. I might end up joining you there.

[Val89]

Because the answer may well depend on making sense of what Alisae really thinks of KT (and the issue with Catboi) right now. My default answer would be "Alisae", but I could be labouring under a misunderstanding that might get resolved with a bit more dialogue that is taking place as we speak.

[Val89]

Hey val, do you mind explaining for me why you voted mastina on Day 1?

I got the distinct impression she was ignoring what I was saying about Alisae and Norwee being unpartnered, despite trying to engage her on the issue several times, and I was being told that was meta for scum!Mastina; and matched what I remember about the only experience I have with scum!mastina in Control.

Perhaps I fucked up by not checking that out in more detail, but I wanted an answer as to why she was disregarding evidence that didn't fit her mental model, and the most likely answer I could see was that she was scum and had a specific agenda to push, and I was small-fry enough she could just disregard and think I would not be threat.

I know "I thought she was flipping scum" is a bit of an unsatisfying answer, but that's basically what it boils down to.

[Val89]

this sounds... weird? why are they fosing him for that?

I have no idea, and I've not been able to get a decent answer.

It started because Alisae said they suspected Dann and Catboi were partnered, and they fos catboi. I asked why they fos'd catboi independently and was told it was because they feel like catboi is scum for pushing kitty if kitty turns out to be town. I've not really been able to get to the bottom of where that feeling comes from - I've tried a few times but got various answers (lightly paraphrasing: makes sense for catboi to push KT if catboi is scum, I think catboi has a scum agenda in pushing KT) that seem to me to be variations on 'gut', which doesn't make sense to me from someone who is apparently also scumreading KT.

To be fair, Alisae also pointed out that catboi hasn't really pushed or interacted with any of Cephrir or PP who were listed as bottom scum reads in 1454, which I haven't checked yet to see if that is true, but if it is could well be a valid reason for scumreading catboi - I just don't know why "they are pushing KT" was the first answer I got to the question of why Catboi?

[Val89]

It's not worth talking about if it flipped scum.
I think scum, aka, VOTE: Kitty
saw mastina's posts and is scum hiding behind it.

Yeah, I guess that was my misunderstanding.

More fool me for taking the above as a scumread, I guess.

[Val89]

i dont really understand val's mindset on this in particular - if you decide alisae isn't scum wouldn't that remove your reason for not being sure about a KT vote

It's OK, you are allowed to not understand.

I haven't decided Alisae isn't scum. Having my top 2 scum reads apparently scumread each other and push for each others elimination made me question if I had a proper handle on the game at all - it doesn't look like theatre to me, and if that's true, I am wrong in a big way about at least one of those. Now I find out that wasn't actually the case.

It's true that if I decided Alisae is town, then I probably would want to flip KT unless Alisae convinces me they are right about the newly announced townread there; but I'm not there yet on either of those things - I'm re-reading to firstly evaluate if there is a chance this was just theatre, and secondly, which of the two I would rather flip.

As an aside, it was pointed out to me that I had made a mistake with regards to Misty - I thought something Shiro had said was known to everyone, but it turns out I was mistaken and it was in Windclan - so I'm re-evaluating there, too.

My vote will come when I am good and ready, and not when you think it should, thank you very much.

[Val89]

bell is hard town for this page remind me to explain later

Reminder.

It might help me let go of some residual paranoia he was trying to fake-dumb tell at the game open.

[Val89]

VAL CAN YOU GIVE US ANOTHER LAY DOWN ON THE DYNAMICS OF WIND CLAN

I was writing up an answer to this and in the process realised there was something that was going unexplained I've asked for clarification about; but briefly, and I think this has come out in main thread anyway; Norwee thinks there is one scum in original Windclan (ignoring Titus for the moment); and think it is T3 because he TRing everyone else. He couldn't explain his TR on Alisae to me (or at least, he said I would find it unsatisfying and it's based on volume of experience of games together; which I took to be a variation on 'soulread') but I can live with that.

He wanted me to fully explain my read on Alisae in the hope we can come to an agreement and become a big happy clan family, and we had a minor disagreement about if I should be doing so publicly or keeping it in-house, so to speak. As a compromise, I started with the posting in-clan which I wouldn't be able to legitimately quote to man thread anyhow, and specifically how closely the early posting there between Alisae and Norwee closely matched how scum-Alisae approached town-nancy in that game Mastina linked. I was told it was NAI, and I asked for examples of town-Alisae games with Hoods for comparison, and I have been given them now; so I shall take a look, but I was also given a list of excuses as to why it's not a fair comparison anyway, ones that didn't make a lot of sense, so I am expecting to find there is a difference in meta anyway.

The thing I realised that wasn't clear is why Norwee is interested in hashing out my read on Alisae, and not Alisae's read on me; which unless I missed something, was still a scumread and would preclude us being a TRing happy clan together anyway. I also want to go over the games I've been given in case I am mistaken and the similarities are NAI for Alisae, so I'll flesh this out properly once I have answers there.

[Val89]

I GUESS NORWEE COULD BE MORE RELUCTANT TO CHALLENGE ALISAE BECAUSE OF THEIR ANGST, SO THEY ARE FOCUSING ON YOU? I'M NOT SURE.

I missed where Alisae said during the D1 T3 flashwagon attempt that they thought T3 was scum-in-the-hood because they also TR everyone else. My bad.

To answer your question about the current dynamics in a bit more detail: Norwee thinks there is one scum in Windclan (as does Alisae), and it is most likely T3 because they are TRing everyone else. I am inclined to agree there is at most one, because I can't make pairings in there make sense - I remain confident it isn't Norwee/Alisae; Shiro+{T3, Alisae} is possible, but unlikely - I have Shiro in my 'treat as town' bucket, and T3/Alisae seems unlikely too. This is ignoring Titus given she chose to join Windclan.

I'm TRing Norwee, although when thinking about it, I am only really doing so because I don't think the two are S/S, and I think it's Alisae, plus (apart from having exactly 5 scum reads on his association exercise matching scumreads he had already disclosed, and having everyone else town - which I thought would be a co-incidence if you were truly doing it off the cuff, but certainly possible) I hadn't seen anything to really ping me scummy there, and there is a decent amount of activity in clan, if not main thread, for me to think I would have seen something - it's not like he's lurking.

T3 isn't posting. Norwee thinks a T3 flip will be informative, but when questioned it basically boiled down to if they flipped town, he would have to re-consider who was scum in Windclan - which is fine, I guess, looking through a Norwee lens, but it doesn't help me because I already think if we do have scum, it's Alisae, not T3. A scum!T3 would be +town for Alisae in my eyes, though, so if that flips happens, and it's a mislim and that forces Norwee to re-eval, fine; and if it's not and I need rethink Alisae, then that's not the end of the world either given T3 isn't really doing much to help anyone at this point.

[Val89]

I need to make time to look at KT again after the curveball Alisae threw at me - I hadn't said anything prior, but Alisae seemingly wanting KT dead had given me pause about joining that wagon; and I've been engaged with this discussion about Alisae in Windclan since, but seeing her 180 that read both here and in clan and then reading the interactions on pg 99/100 following that (which best I can make out was an argument that KT is town because Alisae thinks he is bad at the game???)...

You can consider me spiritually on the KT wagon for now, but I don't want the day to end before I've had chance to spell out exactly what my issue with Alisae is in case I have an unfortunate accident while out hunting this evening, and I wont have that time just yet, nor will I be around to unvote if that wagon picks up speed while I'm entertaining IRL.

pedit: Fucking hell, not you as well. Fine.

VOTE: Alisae

[Val89]

WAS THE ASSOCIATION EXERCISE DONE IN MAIN-THREAD? I DON'T REMEMBER READING THAT.

I'm talking about 1434. And looking at it again now, there was actually six reads, so even the minor scumping on Norwee was my mistake.

WHY ARE YOU TREATING SHIRO AS TOWN (JUST THE CLAIM?)

Correct. I have another small independent reason to leantown on shiro, but it's the claim that's made me just put that read aside for now. Same logic as Titus, but it'll depend on what the claim actually is. We will need clarification before too long.

WHY AREN'T YOU INTERESTED IN ASSOCIATIVES WITH TITUS? THE FACT THAT TITUS CHOSE WIND CLAN AND WON'T TALK ABOUT WHY MAKES ME THE MOST INTERESTED IN ASSOCIATIVES WITH HER.

My point in that previous posts is that I was looking at the number of scum in the original Windclan members - I can't see any reason Titus could, or could not be scum with any other member of Windclan, so when I say there is likely 0 or 1 scum in Windclan, that's actually 0, 1 or 2 when you add in Titus. My working theory at the moment is that if titus is scum (and my independant read on Titus has been a light townlean for mech reasons we discussed earlier, ircc) scum sent her to Windclan (and perhaps took advantage of the swap mecahnic fire told us about to make sure it was specifically Titus, who I understand has a reputation that proceeds) to make sure they had someone in Windclan - ie: that she is telling us the truth one way or another about Windclan simply being the towniest. She has also hinted there are undisclosed mech reasons why Windclan was the choice and I'm happy to defer drawing conclusions about Titus today to see what those are and if that changes things for me.

[Val89]

While we wait for replacements, perhaps Thunderclan can give us an update on how things stand with Marashu now we have the claim from Enchant?

I'm confident in the TR on Shiro/Enchant now; and my initial feeling is by claim alone they are probably both town, but I've not seen a 2-half doc, or anything comparable, to speak with any confidence on that part of it.

[Val89]

Intent to hammer

[Val89]

i accidentally added t3 to the dead thread

Has the dead thread been released?

[Val89]

Cheers.