House of the Dragon - Game Over!

[UNOwen]

Hello everyone

VOTE: Dannflor

[UNOwen]

UNVOTE: Dannflor
VOTE: Andante

[UNOwen]

Yeah yeah,I read the post, and I can't find the seven days thing

Did someone ask this is the scum pt and you forgot?

I think we got a candidate for first execution

Ah it does Say seven nvm

This looks like a fake progression to me.

[UNOwen]

For the record, this is me actually being silly and blind after actually missing the 7 days thing after reading pooky's post like 5 times

Ok maybe, though 68 is still weird.

I don't have an idea of what scum-Andante looks like, but she seems to have the same energy as the previous game I played with her where she was town.

[UNOwen]

It reads as fake progression to you? so put yourself in those shoes. If I made a wallpost going "UNOWEN MAF" and you never saw the seven day thing, saw me saying 7, went "oh! slip from scum chat!!" Cause to me that progression reads more like a town falsely being accused of maf... not that I fully trust Junko right now but that's just my thoughts on this.

Since those posts were in response to you highlighting the exact part of the quote that talked about seven days, then yes I think it was fake that Junko still wouldn't have noticed and instead thought you had slipped. Don't you?

[UNOwen]

Ok maybe, though 68 is still weird.

why is it weird?

66 and 67 make sense as being silly, pretending to still not notice. Feels like if that's what Junko was going with 68 doesn't seem silly enough? Which is a weird description I suppose.

[UNOwen]

It reads as fake progression to you? so put yourself in those shoes. If I made a wallpost going "UNOWEN MAF" and you never saw the seven day thing, saw me saying 7, went "oh! slip from scum chat!!" Cause to me that progression reads more like a town falsely being accused of maf... not that I fully trust Junko right now but that's just my thoughts on this.

Since those posts were in response to you highlighting the exact part of the quote that talked about seven days, then yes I think it was fake that Junko still wouldn't have noticed and instead thought you had slipped. Don't you?

You do realize I replied, and quoted the sentence with SEVEN... I bolded it... you don't think Junko read my post? I'm confused where this is going

No Junko did read your post and pretended not to see that you had quoted the sentence with SEVEN in it. That's the point.

[UNOwen]

unowen, do you think junko is scum for this?

I wouldn't go that far. Most suspicious so far though.

[UNOwen]

unowen, do you think junko is scum for this?

I wouldn't go that far. Most suspicious so far though.

what makes her suspicious? like, even if it's true that she was pretending not to notice the word seven... what's scummy about that?

Well it looks like I misunderstood what she meant by being "silly" so scratch the stuff about 68 being the weird one.

The idea is that if you thought someone was coming at you with a slip, and they quoted a specific line - you'd actually read the post rather than assume they were slipping. Like the first reaction would be Andante probably has a reason for her confidence on it so the "seven days" thing is probably somewhere in Pooky's post. To instead go with the scum pt theory feels more likely to be someone trying to pretend to be unobservant.

[UNOwen]

i still don't get what scum-junko gains by doing this

The gain would be inspiring the reaction in these posts:

Spoiler:

I want to say that this is town, because what scum is going to fake this argument

It reads as fake progression to you? so put yourself in those shoes. If I made a wallpost going "UNOWEN MAF" and you never saw the seven day thing, saw me saying 7, went "oh! slip from scum chat!!" Cause to me that progression reads more like a town falsely being accused of maf... not that I fully trust Junko right now but that's just my thoughts on this.

if Junko knew Andante was town, I think it'd be less likely for them to assume the scum!PT argument would work and miss Andante quoting where the mod gave us that info. she'd know Andante was telling the truth so I don't think the scumslip idea would occur to her. I think that's what Andante is saying as well.

Which I actually agree with the logic of. In theory it would be more likely that town pushes on this as a slip, because scum would know nothing has slipped so might not even think of the idea. My suspicion is that 66, 67, 68 continue that thought beyond the point where town would probably have realised their mistake.

[UNOwen]

Speaking of

Vote: UNOwen

This is my most confident pick for town at the moment, though I suspect they would struggle to be king.

UNVOTE: Andante
VOTE: UNOwen

I have my full support. I would be a most judicious king.

[UNOwen]

I also dislike Shea

Agree with this read. Why is Lukewarm town?

[UNOwen]

Tsq

[UNOwen]

Don't think I agree that's the path we are on. I appreciate your urgency, but also think you're trying to control the outcome a little bit...

plus UNOwen as king seems kind of LOL

, frankly.

Explain this slander?

[UNOwen]

@VPB

Don't think I agree that's the path we are on. I appreciate your urgency, but also think you're trying to control the outcome a little bit...

plus UNOwen as king seems kind of LOL

, frankly.

Explain this slander?

This was actually a real question.

[UNOwen]

I'm having a little bit of a hard time understanding the strong unowen town read from you LLD, but also I'm beginning to start getting paranoid of hitting the posting limit and not being able to spam later when its important so probably going to drop off for a bit but I'll be checking in if anyone desperately needs to talk with me.

What's your read on me?

[UNOwen]

Dont really have one because I feel like you havent done a whole lot.

That's true, but I did say I didn't trust you earlier even though you'd barely posted.

[UNOwen]

@UNOwen

can you explain why you voted me originally? I don't believe we have any experience together so I'm wondering where that came from

is there a reason you didn't start out by advocating for yourself if you want to be Monarch? why exactly did LLD voicing her support make you want to start doing that

We have briefly, Situation Room. My vote for you was the same rational as GuiltyLion, I expect you'd explain yourself and be cautious so less risk of getting away with scum shenanigans. I think the same applies to him but he wasn't being voted.

Typically I'm not going to get massively town read especially early on so I wasn't planning on advocating myself, but if trust exists there's a chance and of course I want it.

[UNOwen]

Why would that matter to me more than any other thing you've said?

Well you didn't seem to think that was reasonable from me, so maybe it would be suspicious?

[UNOwen]

Why would that matter to me more than any other thing you've said?

Well you didn't seem to think that was reasonable from me, so maybe it would be suspicious?

I already told you my read on you so I'm not sure why you'd want to delve into micro-level thoughts I had on a very specific post here, but it WAS unreasonable, but townies are frequently unreasonable and I don't have a good sense of it specifically being likely to come from a scum player wrt your motivations.

It could be, but clearly, as I already said, I didn't come to that conclusion, so what is the point of this line of questioning?

Idk your original post seemed to be accusing me of faking the read so I was suprised that you had me as a complete null despite that.

[UNOwen]

I really have no read on you and I don't see how anyone could at this point unless they are like the UNOwen whisperer. Which, maybe LLD is, but I haven't seen anything compelling to call you town and you're maybe kind of faffing off a bit.

Open to being convinced otherwise. Why should you be the monarch?

How does that compare to your vote for Dwlee?

I should be king because I can be trusted to lead this town to a peaceful and glorious future. What more could you ask from a king?

[UNOwen]

Rhaenyra being mastina's No.1 fan is I assume a shtick that she'd do regardless of alignment.

TSQ is town I think.

[UNOwen]

@Firebringer - What's your read on LLD here?

[UNOwen]

This post stinks. He's CLEARLY TRYING TO FIGURE THEM OUT RIGHT NOW IN REAL TIME. Just let him fucking work?

There's no way this is a real question that you think will lead to you sorting either LLD OR firebringer.

I mean he seems to be suggesting she's manipulative as either town or scum which case it doesn't seem like it's going to lead anywhere.

[UNOwen]

I find it... Frustrating, that i am only person to selfvote. Reminds me about coalition games, where people know they are town and they want to be chosen to win, but reluctant to force self in coalition via atleast selfhealing. Probably, because they don't want to appear "scummy" for that.
Most hilariously, they also call people scum for voting self.

Violation of common sense as direct.

So, yeah, I can't see any person in this game atleast at some merit seriously and so far, i am only person playing for my wincon.

I agree but you aren't the only person self-voting, stop voting for yourself and vote for me instead.

[UNOwen]

i do think it's townie?? for baltar to be pushing andres to be king, because uh. i don't think scum-baltar would want that to happen.

Why not?

[UNOwen]

because town-andres is generally good at reading baltar?

Well that isn't common knowledge, but if you say so.

[UNOwen]

And btw, if you’re giving this really wish washy view (I don’t know whether they’re Town or Scum) I’m amazed you’re this offended about me arguing that I have them as Slight Town. Yeah they’re experienced. But I wouldn’t actually agree that they’re difficult to read when Scum. I mean they had me fooled for half of a game as Scum, and then I teased them out. Otherwise, I think I have been able to read them relatively well. I don’t know if VPB would agree or disagree.

I'd probably put you in the same category as datisi where I think you've played with me enough that you'll get a bad vibe from me if I'm scum.

Idk if my meta is really clear, but people who have lots of experience with me tend to have better than average ability to scumhunt me on nuances I do not understand all the time.

So he did.

[UNOwen]

VOTE: tsq

Is rhea an alt? I feel I missed a ton of context.

Andante is town, dweelee is town

Why dwlee?

[UNOwen]

okay, so i went back to reread the first ~100 posts of her iso there, and it's like... i don't think anything of her iso in HDP is even remotely as townie as 136. the two isos feel like night and day. she did have the weird "lol what if 4 gentlemen scum" read, which like sure ok weird. but i feel like post after post in this game, she's coming up with new wacky theories on what is going on in the game. it's like she cannot stop herself from yelling out her reads.

contrast to hdp, where it's like... a lot of fluff posting, a lot of weird defensive "i'm not maf", and very very few reads when compared to this game.

hyperactivity maybe, but i don't feel like she did either of pendulum read swings or projected confidence in hdp. and the "4 gent scum" is like, the only wacky theory of hers i've found there, compared to... like 50 of them she's had this game probably. these two isos don't feel similar at all

Agree with the idea of this post, I think there's a distinction between Andante first posts here vs HDP - though not sure amount of wacky theories is a key difference.

[UNOwen]

Unowen is strange, and given his interactions and what posted. Would not be surprised about scum on that.

I don't see point in a lot of there posts

and could even see scum motivation in questions posing and what they are looking into as not scumhunting. think someone
else said this? Might be me agreeing with Shea again. Not again....

Which posts are you talking about here?

[UNOwen]

The end result of that statement is to make people doubt Andante town reads, and it never acknowledges that. It doesn't have the "I think Andante is town anyways, but..." aspect in there, which I would expect from an uninformed view point that is entering into that conversation with a town read on Andante.

It does not engage with Andante's alignment, or even engage with your alignment for making such a post.

It is just... there.

I think this is a bad take. Town doesn't have to be laser-focused on sorting with every interjection, it's not a stretch to imagine someone wanting to make a point that was more to do with theory in general than being specific to this game.

[UNOwen]

Mom Baltar is acting scummy again

Maaaaafiiiiiaaaaaa

Good posts.

[UNOwen]

Oh and just so that we’re clear - if I conclude Datisi that you’re Scum, you will absolutely see me state it plainly. And if I feel that way once I finish reading today, you will know. If I still can’t make a definitive statement on your alignment, I will voice that too. What I can tell you is that I think I’ve produced enough content that you really shouldn’t be treating me as Scum here. And I think I (out of everyone else) should have a really strong reason to TR VPB - he’s advocating for me to be King. Sure, they haven’t directly voted for me, so in a way if there’s no real potential for me to be King, I will discount this somewhat. But I know I’m Town. I know Scum benefits greatly from having Scum be King. So I definitely have to consider VPB’s push and read of my slot as a big positive. Scum could use this as a strategy to pocket. No question about that. But VPB is actively campaigning on my behalf in a way I cannot possibly conclude is Scummy at this point in time. And that correct read could really backfire on VPB because I have not given any indication whatsoever that my strongest TR is on them, so they

know

that it isn’t reciprocated. That’s important. Now, if my entire view of the game is

wrong

, and VPB advocates for my kingship and I actually get voted as King, then VPB may have ushered in a Town that’s wrong about the game in a position of true power. But they don’t know that yet (as I have not shared my plans for a potential Council, or a full summary of all my reads), so I absolutely see it as a positive.

What do you make of VPB planning your council for you?

[UNOwen]

I think it’s weird you would even assume I would just take VPB’s suggestions and make them my own with no edits.

I don't assume that you would do that, but VPB's post looked to me to be trying to shift the small council decision to a popular vote rather than the Kings responsibility. Specifically: "What other roles do we need to assign? Are we taking risks with the kingsguard appointments by not putting any scummy people on the small council?". I don't interpret it as a list of trust since he obviously trusts himself but he's still assigned himself a specific role and suggested how he would use it.

[UNOwen]

y'all are cowards, and that's why you should not have power.

We need people with OPINOINS to be leading Westeros. HOT TAKES even.

Opinions and Hot Takes are not enough, we also need a leader who's prepared to stand up to ambitious councilors who overreach their authority!

[UNOwen]

A king should always take their subjects' desires into decision making. It's why we need a to follow my criteria for choosing a king.

I also just think we need something new to move discussion forward and I don't really care if people level zero attack me over it.

Do you have issues with my list generally other than I made it? who on there do you think shouldn't have power and who would you put in their place?

King should take advise of the town, but not be driven by it. Weak kings are the bane of any kingdom. The reason choosing a town king is important is because they will be deciding PRs, which is a great advantage if they can stack the council with town. Moving to a consensus for PRs seems to allow scum an easier route into the council if they miss out on the kingship. And your post didn't really take into account Andres role in the decision at all.

I can't decide my council unless and until I get elected, at which point the game will have presumably changed significantly because it looks like an uphill climb at the moment. I'm not actively distrusting any of GuiltyLion/TSQ/Dannflor/Andres though, so don't have an issue with the list in those terms - with the exception of you, who is suspicious to me.

[UNOwen]

I think you should be questioning VPB as to what they expect will happen if I’m picked as King with regards to the positions on the Council. But are you actually SR’ing a player for sharing their views and trying to find consensus about the slots in the Council? Because that doesn’t make sense to me. The King should definitely pay attention to what other players are saying, and they should try and make sure their Council reflects their own views and those of the players they trust. Are you disagreeing with that?

Take into account the opinions of others of course, but a King should act like a King! Otherwise you nullify the advantage the role could play in town hands. Voting for the council is not the way to go, especially down to specific council positions. I didn't see VPBs post as helpful suggestions to you - seemed more like he was positioning himself as being part of the decision making.

[UNOwen]

I had same thoughts.

Fine.
VOTE: UNOwen

Yesssss.

[UNOwen]

do you think positioning himself in that way is inherently scummy? I feel town!VPB would want to do that as well

Why advocate Andres to be king if you're going to try to undercut him before he's been crowned? Why not make the case for full democracy then elect the king once that has been agreed? Or why not advocate himself as king if he wants to be in a position of power? It feels underhand and treasonous to me.

Sure maybe VPB would just have this approach as town, I do intend to think more on it. But first reaction is not good.

[UNOwen]

Yo Firebringer, you appear to have missed 834.

[UNOwen]

But I think I fundamentally disagree that the idea should to "either name king, and let king do all of the PR naming without other people's input OR democracy all positions" so I am not surprised at all to see VP giving input on the roles, and dont view it as "undercutting".

It's good that you disagree with that idea, I disagree with it too. There

is

an in between and I'm not saying whoever becomes king should rule by dictat. But there's a difference between giving input and giving instruction.

If you're trying to build a consensus before your proposal for king has even started discussing it, you are going to in effect be putting pressure on them to conform to whatever council the majority (or VPB + whoever else he got to participate in council decisions) wants. In which case you are undercutting the kings power. Since the objective is to put competent town on the throne, it seems like this would be more desirable for scum.

[UNOwen]

VPB I'm voting you largely because I'm most confident you are town and you have momentum, and I'm really curious to see who is really actively against you being King because we are getting to a stage where I find scumreading you somewhat implausible on the whole. personally I've seen you as scum twice now and your vibes are different to me this game. I would also keep in mind there's only 4 players

actually voting you

right now, talk is cheap, votes are what matter.

Why are you considering VPB so obvtown, ignoring meta reasons?

[UNOwen]

everything he's done so far in this game seems centered around promoting a cohesive town core - and so far I've generally liked his picks/selections for that towncore. He's been transparent and exhaustive with his thought process while doing so and none of it at all has triggered any yellow/red flags for me at any step of the way. He's genuinely engaging with multiple people and encouraging new avenues of discussion while ignoring unproductive ones. None of his expressions of suspicion/scumreads have felt slimy to me at all. in a sea of noise, he's giving me the strongest vibes of someone authentically trying to steer things in a pro-town direction - other than Andres as well who I would also be fine with voting if he had a comparable wagon.

the only point I can recall that people have raised against him is possible posturing/pocketing with talking about council picks and I find that pretty uncharitable. talking about council picks is a useful thing to do, and his justification for it feels pure to me.

This is alarmingly unconvincing.

[UNOwen]

This is alarmingly unconvincing.

alright, explain why I'm wrong then. Explain why he's scum.

I'm not even confident he is scum, but he certainly doesn't come across as so trustworthy.

You say he's hasn't expressed slimy scumreads - sure, but what are his scum reads? We're in a part of the game where scum aren't needing to wagon anyone - how is the lack of sliminess meaningful? I'd expect a scum strategy here could be to coast this part by being proactive in King electing theory to boost their own townie stakes. Steering in a pro-town direction? How? By balloting people for their opinions on Andres as king? Again this seems a fairly neutral activity in the context of VPB not expecting Andres to do much more than go with consensus. Ignoring unproductive conversations - what are you referring to here and how is that extremely townie?

My point basically is I'm not clear what sort of expectations you have for how scum would be playing this that VPB is defying such a great extent.

[UNOwen]

UNOwen - Sunfyre

Sunfyre is the best dragon, so this does make sense.

UNVOTE: UNOwen
VOTE: Junkochan

[UNOwen]

prob town? wouldn't lim today, maybe a deep wolf in here that I don't think I'd catch with no info and no flips

: {Andante}

What's the story here?

[UNOwen]

UNVOTE: Junkochan
VOTE: thestatusquo

GuiltyLion, I don't think you answered my question about your Andante read progression.

[UNOwen]

to me it feels obvious and indisputable.

Sure is, from a mathematical perspective reliant entirely on theory.

Sure isn't, based on actual practice accounting for the scum tools in the game versus the town's restrictions/limitations based on the weaknesses of the town that act as force dividers and the strengths of the scum that act as force multipliers.

Granted, I don't think JunkoChan is scum with VP Baltar now, anyway, so like. That means there was at least one town in there anyway. But that was a conclusion I made based off of play--not a conclusion based off of a fallacy.

I agree with this btw. In theory, three scum leading wagons in this game is not impossible at all and should not be discounted as an idea. Based on the actual game though it is not what happened.

[UNOwen]

and second because scum has no reason to play that way even if you think all three of these wagons are fundamentally scum driven. Like which scum were behind the push to switch from a leading VPB wagon to a leading Junko wagon? Why would the mafia team do that?

I didn't read the whole argument, this point is also good and agreeable.

[UNOwen]

VOTE: dwlee

[UNOwen]

Not too interested in talking about the others

Insert I play a priority game etc.

Junko asked me to convey the message that she expected more from your response, but she wishes you a good day all the same.

[UNOwen]

many people say the same, I do have a wonderful tree

[UNOwen]

Do you have any defense to my accusations made about you

Sure - I've encountered those sorts of comments about the way I post before. "detached/coasting/forgettable" etc. Maybe you were getting at a different idea but it feels familiar to me. Some players just find me suspicious, this sometimes improves as the game progresses and I start getting more involved.

I can assure you though that my pokes do have the goal of getting me a better read on the target.

[UNOwen]

mastina is there a reason VPB can't just be bussing dwlee for the town cred?

[UNOwen]

Whenever VP Baltar has a push, that push gets a

disproportionately large support

in a disproportionately short amount of time.

Datisi wants to know what you're suggesting specifically with this argument.

I'm guessing the idea is that you think other members of the scum team are swinging behind VPB whenever he wants to do something.

[UNOwen]

What is the reason for the Enchant votes?

[UNOwen]

UNOwen do you think Follow the Cop works? If there's scum somewhere in the chain we can work out who it is, otherwise we get a check every night

I don't care at all. Someone else can think about mechanics to figure it out.

[UNOwen]

Are you bitter not to have a cool title yet? I'm sure they'll all get killed off and we can take over

Extremely bitter yes, especially since I was cruelly led to believe I would be on the council.

But actually I'm just not really interested in trying to break or otherwise optimize a set up. Mechanics talk is always dull to me.

[UNOwen]

Follow the Cop is never a breaking strat, I'm just suggesting what might be good play.

I haven't read much of the game, why don't you talk me through your no 1 townread and no 1 scumread?

I'm very confident TSQ is town. They seem to be on the level - not trying to push any agenda, keep an open mind about all players. I feel as scum there would be a more consistent narrative coming from him, but he's touching on all parts of the game with the perspective of someone who's truly uninformed. For example, he's expressed doubts about Andres a couple of times - IMO scum would not think to show that fear at this point, they'd just bank Andres as a town read until they needed to go back to it later. Especially since TSQ is more focused elsewhere. Specifically I started to town read him when he didn't see a problem with him accusing me of faking my read on him but thinking I could be town doing that. I think his response to me sounded very sincere, as in he truly didn't get what I was getting at, which makes me believe that his approach was genuine.

I don't really have scum reads that I'm all that confident on yet but Charloux is my best bet if I had to pick at the moment. The most "smoking gun" about him is that this progression:

Spoiler:

Baltar is a jerk. Don't like him deciding the whole roster of who gets what position, feels powerwolfy.

You would say that as both alignments tho. To me you being town is ~70%. It would be 75% but i have a weak townread on Enchant and Fire.

VOTE: VP Baltar I don't really have a reason to oppose it, and he seems competent.

Looks bad to me. I don't think it's likely that town would phrase the first comment in that way about someone they were 70-75% sure was town. The way they backed down so quickly on the VPB council picking being an issue doesn't seem natural. I also disliked the comments about not putting himself on the council, which sounds like something town!Charloux is unlikely to bother saying since obviously he wasn't getting on the council but scum!Charloux might say because he wants to look uninterested in getting power.

[UNOwen]

What do you think this progression on VPB says in terms of associative? I agree that the snippet you provided is alarming regardless. Could you also weigh in on LLD? That was one of your biggest defenders and I'd like to see your perspective on it.

My working suspicion is that Charloux and VPB are both scum, though Charloux!scum doesn't necessarily lock this in. I think the best explanation of Charloux behaviour is that he wanted VPB to be king so couldn't stay in character as suspecting him. IMO VPB's lack of mention of Charloux after this interaction doesn't look great, especially since Charloux refused to engage with VPB's "give me reads" task. 1216 doesn't read like he cares about sorting Charloux, which is odd since I would expect him to have flagged up the same problem about read consistency as I did. VPB preferring a dwlee wagon to Charloux also lends support to this.

LLD I'm pretty confident is town. I haven't actually read the whole case against her, this week has been busy so I've been skimming a lot. In general though I highly doubt scum makes the choice to push for me as king, and if even she did she would actually push it. The realization that I'm too lazy of a poster to ever realistically reach kingship felt town, scum LLD wouldn't care so would stick with the strategy (which I would assume would be "town!LLD has a really strong town read that no-one's listening to, look how townie she is"). I've also found myself agreeing with most of her other early town reads - you/Junko/TSQ. That means only Lukewarm remains as a potential buddy, and I'm not actively suspicious of him either. So a townie reads list from my perspective.

[UNOwen]

This seems like a scummy reply from Owen. Being so salty you didn't get on council that you're not even thinking about the mechanics? As town who didn't get on the council, I find this an unreasonable and unlikely stance.

Did you not hit "preview" before posting this?

[UNOwen]

Yeah, what you're saying is antitown, and probably just bullshit.

You don't think you cam help town win by being VT?

How is that statement/question relevant to this post:

Extremely bitter yes, especially since I was cruelly led to believe I would be on the council.

But actually I'm just not really interested in trying to break or otherwise optimize a set up. Mechanics talk is always dull to me.

?

Am I not clearly saying I don't care about mechanics talk? That has nothing to do with whether I think I can contribute to a win as VT.

[UNOwen]

Furtiveglance asked you an extremely simple mech question and you kind of had a little boo hoo party that you didn't get a PR and then didn't answer the Q.

I don't believe a person who wanted a power role has no desire to talk at all about mechanics. It's not like it was some wide ranging question that would require in depth thought. It was "what do you think about follow the cop".

So let me put this a different way: if you were on the council, would you have the same statement that you don't like to talk about mechanics? If yes, why did you want on the council?

Why are you ascribing my disinterest in mechanics talk to me not getting a PR when I said the opposite?

I don't think I made much of a push to be on the council, but yes I would still be disinterested in talking about the mechanics. Which is different to not being interested in playing the mechanics.

[UNOwen]

UNVOTE: dwlee
VOTE: Charloux

[UNOwen]

Haven't properly caught up yet, don't intend to until later. But I generally think that executing GuiltyLion at this point is unwise unless he's very obviously scum, which when I last checked he wasn't.

I know I still have some homework/lingering questions, namely I feel bad I haven't answered UNOwen on Andante, I want to review her ISO but generally I had her in that probtown zone because there's a number of players that seem to be playing to pocket her and she feels pretty resistant to sucking up to people suspecting/scumreading her, like I don't get any vibes that she's trying to manipulate the gamestate at all here. I know that's probably unsatisfying but that's the best I got in me at the moment

I would still like an elaboration on this though.

[UNOwen]

You see, my problem with this situation is that every single playera on the Guiltylion wagon has presentes why guiltionlion's actions and overall engage with the Game could come from scum, GL has interacted with many of us and has a clear cut group of people backing him up

Where did Firebringer do that?

[UNOwen]

What are you even asking?

"every single playera on the Guiltylion wagon has presentes why guiltionlion's actions and overall engage with the Game could come from scum" <- this includes Firebringer right?

[UNOwen]

VOTE: dwlee

[UNOwen]

What are you even asking?

"every single playera on the Guiltylion wagon has presentes why guiltionlion's actions and overall engage with the Game could come from scum" <- this includes Firebringer right?

Why are you so sure that it's not in the council pt?

Feasibly it was, which is why I was asking.

[UNOwen]

No it is not, but it si a picky question for you to ask, Even tho talla the others have done so, what if fire's motivation is just to follow luke?

It's a pretty rubbish motivation to vote for someone.

[UNOwen]

I don't like the idea of a VP or GL lim today. Both feel like they're kissing Shea's ass (or Shea is scum).

I think you mistyped this?
VP and GL been fighting Shea

Titus did you explain what you meant here?

[UNOwen]

so fmpov, knowing my alignment, after I got the King I voted for, I haven't gotten a council I've wanted, a single flip I've wanted this game, and I'm about to be limmed.

Are you? My assumption is that we're going to end up executing dwlee, unless they become magically obvtown when they next have time to post.

[UNOwen]

UNVOTE: dwlee

[UNOwen]

VOTE: dwlee, E-1.

dwlee has not magically become obvtown.

[UNOwen]

lol RIP Math, too pure for this world

[UNOwen]

I would like GuiltyLion to reconsider his Firebringer read.

[UNOwen]

why me specifically? I'm not the only player TRing Firebringer. A large part of the reason I am TRing FB is specifically because Datisi says he's been really townie in the Council PT

Because I pointed out to you in the supporter PT that your perception of Firebringer's play around your wagon was wrong and I think if you reread that part you will realize this too.

[UNOwen]

why me specifically? I'm not the only player TRing Firebringer. A large part of the reason I am TRing FB is specifically because Datisi says he's been really townie in the Council PT

Because I pointed out to you in the supporter PT that your perception of Firebringer's play around your wagon was wrong and I think if you reread that part you will realize this too.

you were definitely right that I was mistaken to give FB credit for defusing my wagon

I still don't think his vote on me was necessarily scummy. like I don't think scum!FB thinks "sheeping Luke" would look good on my flip and the whole thing had this half-hearted vibe around it that I think is difficult to fake as scum

These posts are the ones that I dislike most:

Spoiler:

Was he saying this in council PT? Cause he was clear yesterday he wanted Dwlee first

Ummm...why you concerned with who goes first because....i mean u would be next if thats the case? Also could we talk about ur comment on mastina trying to pocket people. I feel like the more i look at ur iso now, the more i see ur trying to spread either paranoia or poisoning the well for trust between players....

I feel by play u have been mostly town GL at least ur transitions and where ur going seems to make sense from town!u. I am a bit confused now having gone through Luke posts about u, rechecking ur iso and seeing the points ur making with a more critical lense.

idk i feel a more town!GL question to me response would have been 'why me over dwlee considering luke was focused on dwlee the last game day?" but the way u asked it made it feel less like u were looking for my reasoning more than pushing me towards dwlee over yourself.

that seems like exactly the same statement. Can you expand about what's different between the two?

its the way its framed... i know it sounds like its asking the same thing, but one is like looking for my reasoning (the one i just said would be more town!GL) the other is more pushing me to vote dwlee over himself (manipulative instead of searching for my reason)

GL theres no way im going to be paranoid of Shea in this game.
He gave me the power to control who acts or not in the PR game.
It would have to mean he stacked the council with scum to control the PRs, he doesn't fear any of the PRs, or thinks im so bad that me being in this position actually helps his alignment out the most (i guess this last one might be pretty possible ngl)

I really think if ur living in a world where u think Shea is scum. You would need to really access his council picks more than u are. Like I think u should suspect me of being scum if u think shea is scum.

this feels like trying to win an argument

So start from a basis of "sheeping Luke" but then shading your posts, justifying the vote more with every post. Felt like he was trying to build momentum against you.

[UNOwen]

great choice datisi

[UNOwen]

Execution Vote Day Two

With nineteen players alive - it will require ten votes to eliminate a player.

GuiltyLion [5]:

Junkochan, Thestatusquo, Firebringer, mastina, ProfessorDrapion

Dwlee99 [5]:

GuiltyLion, Titus, Datisi, Andresvmb, VP Baltar

Firebringer [2]:

Enchant, furtiveglance,

not voting [7]:

JohnnyFarrar, PenguinPower, Andante, Dannflor, Unowen, Lady Lambdadelta, Dwlee99


Execution Deadline: (expired on 2022-12-02 22:58:35)

[UNOwen]

VOTE: Johnny

[UNOwen]

Johnny
Roden
Shea
Firebringer

[UNOwen]

Do i need to repeat why Rhae was town? Rhae literally advocated for King Mastina who we know is town.
Ur saying that RHAE who thinks so highly of mastina, as scum wants to put MASTINA in charge of this town. We know mastina is town now, you guys don't have excuses for this shit.

Get of ur terribad reads.

What chance did mastina ever have of becoming king?

[UNOwen]

so ur saying. Rhae faked a tantrum day 1 when no one wanted mastina king. This is what u have to do.
She literally threw a tantrum because no one was pushing mastina king.

Like in ur world not only would scum!rhae think "ohh this will never happen but ill push it" but she also threw in game hissy fit for it and did this all with scum motivation.

Scum strat to do as she would as town. Not unlikely?

[UNOwen]

I kinda think Rhae would be worshipping mastina as either alignment? like I don't think she wouldn't try to pocket her

^^^

[UNOwen]

Half the people in my PT are plotting against the King but I guess that would be expected for the non-supporters. Before Johnny replaced in, 90% of Rhaenyra's posts were about plotting a coup and political intrigue roleplay. Shortly after you made this post, several people began publicly discussing how they plan to overthrow the King depending on or regardless of Dwlee's flip. Day 2 start is also a pretty good place to look.

Please elaborate on this with specific names.

[UNOwen]

At this point it's not really a thing anymore, reads shifted.

No but at the time it was a thing so should be possible for you to list the names right?

[UNOwen]

At this point it's not really a thing anymore, reads shifted.

No but at the time it was a thing so should be possible for you to list the names right?

Yes, and I did.

Sorry I must be blind then, can you do it again?

[UNOwen]

Half the people in my PT are plotting against the King but I guess that would be expected for the non-supporters. Before Johnny replaced in, 90% of Rhaenyra's posts were about plotting a coup and political intrigue roleplay. Shortly after you made this post, several people began publicly discussing how they plan to overthrow the King depending on or regardless of Dwlee's flip. Day 2 start is also a pretty good place to look.

But I am a fool my friend, I do not know which specific people half the pt refers to?

[UNOwen]

I don't think combat trials would end the day if there can be two of them.

[UNOwen]

ohh boy pooky tempting me here.
I so want to get in gladiate combat. Itching to fight unowen.

gogogo

[UNOwen]

I Firebringer, Paramount of the Reach, and trusted Master of Coin. Hereby declare a Trial by combat to the filthy traitor Lord UNOwen of House Glover. He has betrayed Lord of Winterfell Datisi and by extension his highness King Shea First of His Name, by plotting treason to overthrow his Majesty. This crime will not stand!

Accept Challenge

[UNOwen]

I'll be honest, I don't get this mechanic.

Fantastic flavor!

[UNOwen]

I still feel good about voting here, like, UNO isn't doing anything.. literally nothing... and I want to say I remember UNO doing stuff in another game (don't quote me cause idk) but yeah, I figured I'd check in, see if I needed to at least unvote, nope. vote is staying here

Quoting you here to say that you must be remembering wrong, the idea that I would ever bring myself to actually doing stuff is preposterous.

[UNOwen]

Calling RHEA/UNWND's slot here scum is ridiculous IMO.

Why is that?

[UNOwen]

Half the people in my PT are plotting against the King but I guess that would be expected for the non-supporters. Before Johnny replaced in, 90% of Rhaenyra's posts were about plotting a coup and political intrigue roleplay. Shortly after you made this post, several people began publicly discussing how they plan to overthrow the King depending on or regardless of Dwlee's flip. Day 2 start is also a pretty good place to look.

But I am a fool my friend, I do not know which specific people half the pt refers to?

I am absolutely certain that Roden hasn't yet responded because he is painstakingly devoted to making sure I get the most thorough and comprehensive list of names possible and I just wanted to say how much I appreciate those efforts. Thanks Roden!

[UNOwen]

Half the people in my PT are plotting against the King but I guess that would be expected for the non-supporters. Before Johnny replaced in, 90% of Rhaenyra's posts were about plotting a coup and political intrigue roleplay. Shortly after you made this post, several people began publicly discussing how they plan to overthrow the King depending on or regardless of Dwlee's flip. Day 2 start is also a pretty good place to look.

But I am a fool my friend, I do not know which specific people half the pt refers to?

I am absolutely certain that Roden hasn't yet responded because he is painstakingly devoted to making sure I get the most thorough and comprehensive list of names possible and I just wanted to say how much I appreciate those efforts. Thanks Roden!

Good thing I already did and you're just transparently making busy work posts here.

Where?

[UNOwen]

But I am a fool my friend, I do not know which specific people half the pt refers to?

"But I am a fool my friend, I do not know which specific people half the pt refers to?"

What exactly is the purpose of not answering this question in a straightforward way?

[UNOwen]

Oh no my quote got messed up, let me try again:

Spoiler:

Half the people in my PT are plotting against the King but I guess that would be expected for the non-supporters. Before Johnny replaced in, 90% of Rhaenyra's posts were about plotting a coup and political intrigue roleplay. Shortly after you made this post, several people began publicly discussing how they plan to overthrow the King depending on or regardless of Dwlee's flip. Day 2 start is also a pretty good place to look.

But I am a fool my friend, I do not know which specific people half the pt refers to?

I am absolutely certain that Roden hasn't yet responded because he is painstakingly devoted to making sure I get the most thorough and comprehensive list of names possible and I just wanted to say how much I appreciate those efforts. Thanks Roden!

Good thing I already did and you're just transparently making busy work posts here.

Where?

At this point it's not really a thing anymore, reads shifted.

No but at the time it was a thing so should be possible for you to list the names right?

Yes, and I did.

Sorry I must be blind then, can you do it again?

Drapion and Mastina mentioned in the non-supporter PT that this looks like a major scum/perspective slip. From what I understand, GL has been a major player and influence in this game...yet he claims that town is not in control of this game. It feels like there's some cognitive dissonance here and I don't think it can come from town.

GL has not really been influencing the game much since Shea became king. I would say GL has faced resistance on almost every post he's making. Same for me. The rabble rousing crowd just continually makes bad arguments and is trying to outweigh that with volume and noise.

Drapion and Mastina and Shea can sit there and cry wolf (literally) all day long, dwlee is still the correct yeet for today. It should have happened yesterday, but Shea took unilateral action on a town read he's claiming isn't even locktown, and then he and mastina (in separate threads where they couldn't be communicating mind you) each claimed Shea actually had no choice because I was advocating we lim dwlee. Shea did have a choice though. He could have done nothing, which would have been the proper play for the king, instead of mislimming a town.

Those three can tell whatever conspiracy theories they want, facts are facts.

I don't think any of those three are scum, but yes I do agree that they've gone into conspiracy theory territory. The non-supporter PT is very chaotic and became an echo chamber a while back, looking at the post dates, so that would likely explain why Drapion and Mastina have been loud and in unison. I think this makes them town though, it just reads as natural paranoia and I believe that they both just really want to be right. Though I also agree with some of their other reads; I like Mastina's reads on everyone in the non-supporter PT, and Drapion picked up on a few things that I like that I'll share when it becomes relevant later.

I think the theory that you and GL are a power wolf duo is exciting, but I don't think it's likely tbh. I haven't read your ISO yet, but based on vibes I think that you could be town and mixed in with scum.

Gonna have to disagree that you and GL don't have any influence though, you're both very clearly getting what you want so far. Facing resistance kinda proves that, because resistance can't happen without an opposing influence, and said resistance is hardly being taken seriously as it is. You have the majority of the player list hanging onto your every word, while that same majority either ridicules or ignores Mastina and Drapion. And there's clear dissent and a wish to overthrow Shea among several players, so I don't think this resistance that you're so wary of is as much of a threat as you're making them out to be.

Interesting. Who else is in the “clear dissent” I don’t need a long explanation. Just who please.

Half the people in my PT are plotting against the King but I guess that would be expected for the non-supporters. Before Johnny replaced in, 90% of Rhaenyra's posts were about plotting a coup and political intrigue roleplay. Shortly after you made this post, several people began publicly discussing how they plan to overthrow the King depending on or regardless of Dwlee's flip. Day 2 start is also a pretty good place to look.

"But I am a fool my friend, I do not know which specific people half the pt refers to?"

What exactly is the purpose of not answering this question in a straightforward way?

[UNOwen]

like, people are going "WHY NOT JOHNNY??" VP went "you can't give a single reason to tr johnny??" like, why are yall going after the PRs? Johnny called the dwlee wagon an apathy wagon, do yall seriously think johnny says that about his partner? like, his approach to that didn't seem scummy to me? so like, VP, why are you trying to use what I've been saying for UNO for Johnny?? I could find a lot more towny things about johnny than I could UNO, yet no one wants to talk about UNO...

[UNOwen]

I interpreted Andante as talking about Johnny's perspective - Johnny was calling it an apathy wagon, not necessarily that she agreed it was an apathy wagon.

[UNOwen]

Lets get the unowen wagon going if im no one is objecting to it.
I know ive had like 6-7 people who say scum.
Are we doing a repeat of dwlee with hesitation to buss or something.
What is going on with people vocal in PTs about unowen scum and no one acts on it.

The frustration of scum not getting traction on what they think should be an easy mislim. My sympathies.

[UNOwen]

We are in the spinning wheels stage of the day, my favourite part.

[UNOwen]

i haven't exactly built a case filled with post numbers and deep dives to give a tldr:
> I don't like his questioning, they didn't seem like actual questions to help him get mindset of player
> I don't feel his reads are genuine.
> He hasn't done anything since basically day 1 at all to even pretend to be scumhunting imo.

I can do deep case if needed but skim iso tell me if disagree.

Outrageous slander from the Master of Lies.

Challenge: Firebringer

[UNOwen]

i haven't exactly built a case filled with post numbers and deep dives to give a tldr:
> I don't like his questioning, they didn't seem like actual questions to help him get mindset of player
> I don't feel his reads are genuine.
> He hasn't done anything since basically day 1 at all to even pretend to be scumhunting imo.

I can do deep case if needed but skim iso tell me if disagree.

Outrageous slander from the Master of Lies.

Challenge: Firebringer

prove me wrong friend.

My

green

blood would be all the proof anyone could need if only you dared to try to spill it.

I've asked you before which of my questions you're claiming to take issue with - why don't you start there?

[UNOwen]

Mafia have no incentive to accept challenge. They fear to die.

Truth.

[UNOwen]

The chance to immediately kill a scumread, thus helping the game progress in the quickest way.

[UNOwen]

No it doesn't

[UNOwen]

There can be 2, in the case of failure on one or both.

My question is if someone dies does it end the day.

and I've got Mod confirmation now it doesn't anyway, so that's nice

[UNOwen]

i disagree, i think firebringer is very towny

What's so towny about him?

[UNOwen]

I keep saying that if you review the initial GuiltyLion/Shea argument, Firebringer's progression during it is pure villainy.

[UNOwen]

Spoiler:

Was he saying this in council PT? Cause he was clear yesterday he wanted Dwlee first

Ummm...why you concerned with who goes first because....i mean u would be next if thats the case? Also could we talk about ur comment on mastina trying to pocket people. I feel like the more i look at ur iso now, the more i see ur trying to spread either paranoia or poisoning the well for trust between players....

I feel by play u have been mostly town GL at least ur transitions and where ur going seems to make sense from town!u. I am a bit confused now having gone through Luke posts about u, rechecking ur iso and seeing the points ur making with a more critical lense.

idk i feel a more town!GL question to me response would have been 'why me over dwlee considering luke was focused on dwlee the last game day?" but the way u asked it made it feel less like u were looking for my reasoning more than pushing me towards dwlee over yourself.

that seems like exactly the same statement. Can you expand about what's different between the two?

its the way its framed... i know it sounds like its asking the same thing, but one is like looking for my reasoning (the one i just said would be more town!GL) the other is more pushing me to vote dwlee over himself (manipulative instead of searching for my reason)

GL theres no way im going to be paranoid of Shea in this game.
He gave me the power to control who acts or not in the PR game.
It would have to mean he stacked the council with scum to control the PRs, he doesn't fear any of the PRs, or thinks im so bad that me being in this position actually helps his alignment out the most (i guess this last one might be pretty possible ngl)

I really think if ur living in a world where u think Shea is scum. You would need to really access his council picks more than u are. Like I think u should suspect me of being scum if u think shea is scum.

this feels like trying to win an argument

"Oh geee I was only sheeping Luke but now it seems every word you say makes you look like scum!"

[UNOwen]

VOTE: Firebringer

[UNOwen]

@Datisi

Andres i want unity on the council right now. Can we align on someone outside for now?

What is town motivation for this post?

[UNOwen]

I really don't like that he didn't accept UNOwen's challenge, or his UNOwen scumread in general. It feels like he's hoping UNOwen's playstyle will do the legwork for him instead of analyzing at a real level why UNOwen is scum

Ding ding ding ding!

[UNOwen]

I'm not 100% sure on GL and VP being the same alignment. Why is that being assumed?

I don't believe GuiltyLion would fuck up enough on a read for him to be town and VPB scum. And GuiltyLion is high confidence town.

[UNOwen]

I don't know if I like that Firebringer didn't accept UNOwens challenge

Firebringer, why didn't you accept

because u said to reconsider so i want more from unown to show ur wrong instead of just doing a duel.
I haven't had time to review ur link but im considering ur argument that this is personality.

"want more from unown" what is this supposed to mean/how have you suggested that this is your desire at all?

[UNOwen]

The whole argument seems to hinge on him not taking the challenge.

no, no, no.
The argument is his insidious behaviour on Day 2:

Spoiler:

Was he saying this in council PT? Cause he was clear yesterday he wanted Dwlee first

Ummm...why you concerned with who goes first because....i mean u would be next if thats the case? Also could we talk about ur comment on mastina trying to pocket people. I feel like the more i look at ur iso now, the more i see ur trying to spread either paranoia or poisoning the well for trust between players....

I feel by play u have been mostly town GL at least ur transitions and where ur going seems to make sense from town!u. I am a bit confused now having gone through Luke posts about u, rechecking ur iso and seeing the points ur making with a more critical lense.

idk i feel a more town!GL question to me response would have been 'why me over dwlee considering luke was focused on dwlee the last game day?" but the way u asked it made it feel less like u were looking for my reasoning more than pushing me towards dwlee over yourself.

that seems like exactly the same statement. Can you expand about what's different between the two?

its the way its framed... i know it sounds like its asking the same thing, but one is like looking for my reasoning (the one i just said would be more town!GL) the other is more pushing me to vote dwlee over himself (manipulative instead of searching for my reason)

GL theres no way im going to be paranoid of Shea in this game.
He gave me the power to control who acts or not in the PR game.
It would have to mean he stacked the council with scum to control the PRs, he doesn't fear any of the PRs, or thinks im so bad that me being in this position actually helps his alignment out the most (i guess this last one might be pretty possible ngl)

I really think if ur living in a world where u think Shea is scum. You would need to really access his council picks more than u are. Like I think u should suspect me of being scum if u think shea is scum.

this feels like trying to win an argument

"Oh geee I was only sheeping Luke but now it seems every word you say makes you look like scum!"

Do you not see the convenience of someone suddenly interpreting GuiltyLion posts in the scummiest way? It's not a mindset that switches on and off. If you scumread GL's posts - that should be consistent. If you townread GL's posts - that should also be consistent. Instead Firebringer started a mass reevaluation just when the possibility of GL becoming a counter wagon to Dwlee seemed plausible. This is strategic choice, not coincidence!

Then consider Firebringers convo with Andres, which I also keep talking about:
Andres: "I think GL is town"
Firberinger: "Why?"
Andres: "Reasons"
Firebringer: "Okay I think council should consolidate on non-councillor"
Andres: "I'm voting Dwlee"
Firebringer: "..."

What is town thought process here? Surely any town would have the natural reaction of "oh I think the dwlee wagon is a good idea/bad idea because of xxx"? This seems very obvious.

[UNOwen]

This post by GL made me decide not to challenge.

But this post from GL which said the exact same thing you ignored completely:

I'm leaning town on UNOwen. When I was looking through my old games i took a glimpse at UNOwen ISO in Situation Room and people were mistakenly scumreading him for similar things as this game (asking questions that don't seem to lead anywhere, somewhat detached/aloof thread presence). I don't think it's alignment indicative for him and i don't think he's done anything this game overtly scummy, so I'm curious what the case on him is here

???

[UNOwen]

Hahahahaha

[UNOwen]

Did Firebringer/furtive not count? Good if so, let’s try again.

Challenge: Firebringer

[UNOwen]

i want more from u in that if ur town here. I think ur thoughts have been very lacking in thought. When did u start scumreading me and why how about we start from there. Because if i just take this day as a whole, ur arguments rested on my not accepting ur challenge and me being affraid to die which should make no sense to u because I CHALLENGED YOU yesterday. Instead its this nefarious thing today of me going 'naah gonna hold off'.

How do you miss that I suspected you yesterday when

I accepted your challenge

for that very reason?

Yet again ignoring posts that don’t suit your narrative.

Then u suggest its my interactions with dwlee wagon and GL? I was voting Dwlee.
SNIP.
But i did vote dwlee.....what are we talking about im so confused what context for this ur even bringing to table of this convo of andres. Are u saying i defended dwlee at some point by not jumping on with andres at this point?

You voted GuiltyLion, progressed the vote in a scummy way, then unvoted when it was clear wagon was dead, then voted dwlee much later. Can’t just dismiss that skullduggery with “I was voting Dwlee“.

[UNOwen]

I don't think Dannflor is a good vote.

[UNOwen]

1) I never 'missed' you scumread me yesterday. I am saying today is first time im hearing a reason. So i am asking when did this begin and where were u reasons starting. Because if i take today it seemed like just today stuff. Now ur referencing my approach to GL wagon and thats scummy great so u were thinking that then.

Yeah i don't really believe ur scumread.

Deception and lies!

I would like GuiltyLion to reconsider his Firebringer read.

why me specifically? I'm not the only player TRing Firebringer. A large part of the reason I am TRing FB is specifically because Datisi says he's been really townie in the Council PT

Because I pointed out to you in the supporter PT that your perception of Firebringer's play around your wagon was wrong and I think if you reread that part you will realize this too.

why me specifically? I'm not the only player TRing Firebringer. A large part of the reason I am TRing FB is specifically because Datisi says he's been really townie in the Council PT

Because I pointed out to you in the supporter PT that your perception of Firebringer's play around your wagon was wrong and I think if you reread that part you will realize this too.

you were definitely right that I was mistaken to give FB credit for defusing my wagon

I still don't think his vote on me was necessarily scummy. like I don't think scum!FB thinks "sheeping Luke" would look good on my flip and the whole thing had this half-hearted vibe around it that I think is difficult to fake as scum

These posts are the ones that I dislike most:

Spoiler:

Was he saying this in council PT? Cause he was clear yesterday he wanted Dwlee first

Ummm...why you concerned with who goes first because....i mean u would be next if thats the case? Also could we talk about ur comment on mastina trying to pocket people. I feel like the more i look at ur iso now, the more i see ur trying to spread either paranoia or poisoning the well for trust between players....

I feel by play u have been mostly town GL at least ur transitions and where ur going seems to make sense from town!u. I am a bit confused now having gone through Luke posts about u, rechecking ur iso and seeing the points ur making with a more critical lense.

idk i feel a more town!GL question to me response would have been 'why me over dwlee considering luke was focused on dwlee the last game day?" but the way u asked it made it feel less like u were looking for my reasoning more than pushing me towards dwlee over yourself.

that seems like exactly the same statement. Can you expand about what's different between the two?

its the way its framed... i know it sounds like its asking the same thing, but one is like looking for my reasoning (the one i just said would be more town!GL) the other is more pushing me to vote dwlee over himself (manipulative instead of searching for my reason)

GL theres no way im going to be paranoid of Shea in this game.
He gave me the power to control who acts or not in the PR game.
It would have to mean he stacked the council with scum to control the PRs, he doesn't fear any of the PRs, or thinks im so bad that me being in this position actually helps his alignment out the most (i guess this last one might be pretty possible ngl)

I really think if ur living in a world where u think Shea is scum. You would need to really access his council picks more than u are. Like I think u should suspect me of being scum if u think shea is scum.

this feels like trying to win an argument

So start from a basis of "sheeping Luke" but then shading your posts, justifying the vote more with every post. Felt like he was trying to build momentum against you.

[UNOwen]

i feel its kind of clear in my vote towards GL i was sheeping Luke, and when i was reading through GL i thought there was something to it and began applying questioning/pressure but my heart wasn't ultimately there. So if im so scummy for my switch of votes from GL to Dwlee. Which it seems ur alluding to the deadness of the GL wagon as the reason i flipped?

I think i flipped to dwlee because the dwlee wagon was very sus with how hesitant people were to push it and i thought it was also scummy. Maybe im misremembering but i specifically said the way people were not limming dwlee even though everyone scumread them was odd. If everyone is hesitant which most people here seem to agree (VPB was one of them) why would i call it out and not just keep pushing GL. Because it was dead?

I was also on dwlee the previous game day so its not like my vote there doesn't make sense. u make it sound like i opportunistically bussed.

I don't think this makes sense to u. It doesn't seem to make sense unless u just take a birds eye view of events and just track an event without looking into context of events.

You realised that your heart wasn't in the GuiltyLion vote coincidentally when it stopped looking viable, having spent the first part of setting up yourself to be a convert to GL!scum theory. And despite what you're suggesting you didn't switch to dwlee straight away, you just backed down and started talking about being Master of Coin. Only later did you join the dwlee wagon.

What argument are you making in the second paragraph? Yes you wouldn't stick with the GuiltyLion counterwagon to your buddy because it was dead - scum basics 101. Are you suggesting that dwlee would've escaped if you hadn't pointed out the hesitancy? lol if so.

[UNOwen]

I was also on dwlee the previous game day so its not like my vote there doesn't make sense. u make it sound like i opportunistically bussed.

Good point though, how could I have missed that you didn't opportunistically bus day 2 because you already did on day 1?

VOTE: dwlee
datisi is the king of the north everyone

[UNOwen]

I don't think Dannflor is a good vote.

This makes me think you’re a wolf.
If you believe Firebringer is a wolf, name the 3 players they are a team with.

Idk Shea/Roden/someone mysterious is the current suspicion. Roden feels like a reasonable idea, admittedly Shea is a bit shakier considering some of the interactions between them (and arguably Firebringer's play around Shea/GL start of day 2 better suits scum trying to piggyback wrong town than backing up a buddy). I try not to get too attached to team solves since they're a good path to being wrong.

Dannflor isn't out of contention as someone who

could

be scum, but I've not seen a lot of reasoning for him being so and I thought his early play was decent. Disappearing act is bad in isolation but very easy to verify as not being specific to this game.

[UNOwen]

@Drapion

Execution Vote Day Two

With nineteen players alive - it will require ten votes to eliminate a player.

GuiltyLion [5]:

Junkochan, Thestatusquo, Firebringer, mastina, ProfessorDrapion

Dwlee99 [5]:

GuiltyLion, Titus, Datisi, Andresvmb, VP Baltar

Firebringer [2]:

Enchant, furtiveglance,

not voting [7]:

JohnnyFarrar, PenguinPower, Andante, Dannflor, Unowen, Lady Lambdadelta, Dwlee99


Execution Deadline: (expired on 2022-12-02 22:58:35)

What do you think is going on with this vote count?

[UNOwen]

i think everyday ive had an argument with Shea.
And I don't know how i piggybacking on GL day 2.....
Like today i guess it makes sense cause i want to get his thoughts on u specifically. But what do u even mean by piggybacking wrong town? What are those 2 wrong about that i was piggybacking on. Now that is confusing.

Shea pushed GuiltyLion as scum day 2. You +1'd during the interaction. Most likely because either Shea is your scumbuddy and you wanted to back him up or because Shea was wrong town that you wanted to encourage.

[UNOwen]

Firebringer trying to escape scrutiny by roleplaying as forgetful and confused.

Spoiler:

[UNOwen]

What part of 1681 looks like an opportunistic buss to u

You're the one who evidenced this vote as the reason your day 2 vote shouldn't be seen as an opportunistic bus, so what's so convincing about it? I'd say that your vote being on dwlee end of day 1 but starting day 2 voting VPB/GuiltyLion despite dwlee doing nothing to improve in townieness is a fair indication that this was opportunism.

[UNOwen]

i don't understand ur scum world.
So when ur scum u leave wagons when they are dead or something. In ur world i am scum.
I see GL who in ur world is also town. Is a dead wagon.
Theres momentum building on dwlee but also nobody wants to go over the finish line.
I as scum call this out as weird, and decide to hop on to help finish the job of bussing my ally.

THis is what I don't understand.
Why wouldn't scum me just not jump on. Why would scum me call it to attention. How does it look like im bussing there.

The only thing of substance u have is my flip flopping with GL. Which even in hindsight for myself i feel mixed on. Because I thought i was building something to a scumread on GL and then it just collapsed all of the sudden and i had nothing in my hands, you say its because no one would follow me or it didn't go anywhere so i had to go somewhere else. Why? Why would I have to? Why wouldn't i just keep pushing GL. Why would I need to hop off even if everyone disagreed.

In what world do u think scum me thinks he needs the approval of others to continue making a push on someone else. I could continue making pushes all day and be ignored. Hell, people been ignoring me on YOU. Hasn't stopped me from continuing to press u.


GL, is this seriously a town unowen. I can't even tell if he believes this stuff and im annoyed.

I'm quite certain you understand why it would be preferable for you as scum to not be left on the dwlee counterwagon when dwlee gets executed.

Admire your insistence on portraying yoursef as somehow important to making sure dwlee got executed even though it's obvious from reading the thread at the time that dwlee was getting executed regardless of whether you were on board. Also admire your continued devotion to ignoring facts that are inconvenient to your story.

[UNOwen]

Can you please lay them all out. What do I ignore?

Spoiler:

1) I never 'missed' you scumread me yesterday. I am saying today is first time im hearing a reason. So i am asking when did this begin and where were u reasons starting. Because if i take today it seemed like just today stuff. Now ur referencing my approach to GL wagon and thats scummy great so u were thinking that then.

Yeah i don't really believe ur scumread.

Deception and lies!

I would like GuiltyLion to reconsider his Firebringer read.

why me specifically? I'm not the only player TRing Firebringer. A large part of the reason I am TRing FB is specifically because Datisi says he's been really townie in the Council PT

Because I pointed out to you in the supporter PT that your perception of Firebringer's play around your wagon was wrong and I think if you reread that part you will realize this too.

why me specifically? I'm not the only player TRing Firebringer. A large part of the reason I am TRing FB is specifically because Datisi says he's been really townie in the Council PT

Because I pointed out to you in the supporter PT that your perception of Firebringer's play around your wagon was wrong and I think if you reread that part you will realize this too.

you were definitely right that I was mistaken to give FB credit for defusing my wagon

I still don't think his vote on me was necessarily scummy. like I don't think scum!FB thinks "sheeping Luke" would look good on my flip and the whole thing had this half-hearted vibe around it that I think is difficult to fake as scum

These posts are the ones that I dislike most:
----
So start from a basis of "sheeping Luke" but then shading your posts, justifying the vote more with every post. Felt like he was trying to build momentum against you.

This post by GL made me decide not to challenge.

But this post from GL which said the exact same thing you ignored completely:

I'm leaning town on UNOwen. When I was looking through my old games i took a glimpse at UNOwen ISO in Situation Room and people were mistakenly scumreading him for similar things as this game (asking questions that don't seem to lead anywhere, somewhat detached/aloof thread presence). I don't think it's alignment indicative for him and i don't think he's done anything this game overtly scummy, so I'm curious what the case on him is here

???

[UNOwen]

I guess fact i am missing is i still look worse next day to be on counter wagon. Which I disagree. I guess my disagreement lies in who outside the dwlee wagon has been focused for not voting the dwlee wagon...me and almost everyone else says theres bussers and even I said we should focus on the bussers. So if your argument is I pushed dwlee so as not to be looked at when it flips for the counter wagon lookers, it kind of goes against your theory that I then point at the very wagon i am on as the focus of what should be looked at? Like my actions don't make sense there if my scum mindset is "better hop on so no one accuses me of not hoping on" because then i said "scum are bussing"

We executed Johnny yesterday.

[UNOwen]

reading through that firebringer/unowen convo, i am *still* getting the feeling that firebringer is town and unowen is salty scum who is mad he's not able to sell others on how obviously "scummy" firebringer is.

I have shined a light on a traitor within the heart of government, if you choose to remain in the dark then you only have yourself to blame.

[UNOwen]

What about us executing Johnny?
Are u saying my vote on Johnny was scummy?

It doesn't matter whether you personally said bussers should be focused, in general a town is going to look at off wagon suspects after scum gets executed. Johnny was executed in part because of his interaction with dwlee, so clearly there's a motive for scum you to have a better position than sitting on the sidelines.

4292 I feel like I addressed
Explain this like I’m 5

You claimed that reasoning for suspecting you has come from nowhere, but I clearly explained it at the start of day 3.
You claimed that you didn't accept my challenge because GuiltyLion's meta read made you pause, but ignored it the first time he brought it up.

[UNOwen]

furtive isn't a bad vote.

It's at least correct that from his perspective he really ought to be voting Firebringer here, and the newfound desire to overthrow Shea is weird.

[UNOwen]

Remember when Dwlee got saved

When did you decide this was definitely a scum move?

[UNOwen]

@unowen, can you tell me how your read on guiltylion progressed this game?

I have some experience with GuiltyLion previously and don't play too many games so have an idea of what he should look like as town. Basically reasonable, consistent proactiveness, willingness to reconsider and check his own assumptions. Pretty sure he got meta'd at one point and the theory was that as scum he doesn't keep so engaged later game, though I may be misremembering that for someone else. Think PoP from Baileyposting but much higher involvement so less reason to doubt. The red flags for this type of player I think is that as scum they'd have difficulty mimicking the lack of agenda (which isn't the clearest word to use, but I mean that I don't think we'd get stuff like GuiltyLion considering whether Johnny/dwlee forgetfulness is town suggestive for Johnny) and would be pretty obvious when they need to contrive an opinion.

This game GuiltyLion was vaguely protown in the way that I expect he could also fake as scum early. The first thing that stood out was his VPB read (or maybe it was the Andante meta read, but if it was that I didn't see it as a big problem). GuiltyLion reads should be understandable, but VPB had a conniving way that he seemed to be missing completely. I didn't believe any of the posts he quoted to me were AI so suspected that it could be a cover. I looked back and saw that the Andante read was also suspicious, because A) having skimmed through Andante's ISO in HDP I thought that there was definitely a difference in style compared to this game and Baileyposting - I think that I thought she seemed less confrontational and more appeasing there and B) GuiltyLion had at some point moved Andante to probtown, actually described as potential deepwolf on his read list - which was a very big jump from the starting place of "I don't get why people are townreading Andante" with only "it must be scum TMIing" as apparent explanation.

So towards the end of day 1 I was playing with the theory that VPB/GL were potentially both scum and bussing dwlee. But at some point between then and day 2 I decided that the number of GuiltyLion posts where he looked to be genuinely trying to figure out the game and taking a sincere approach outweighed how much I cared about the weakly justified Andante shift. There should be more than that to point to if he's scum. I think Shea's push against him was the trigger for me to actually consider whether I seriously thought this was what he would look like as scum. I'm also biased to someone who seems to be reading the game in a similar way to me, even if that's not a surefire town tell. For example his case against Charloux which was partly a restatement of what I said but as he had raised the Charloux suspicion in a PT beforehand I fully believe that he just had the same thoughts as me.

Maybe if the game goes really haywire and he's still around this is worth reconsidering, but for now it's easier to just say he's town because he very probably is.

[UNOwen]

You're saying Dats can deepwolf win for all you care, and I'm the one who is being anti-town.

ur the one telling me to kill one of my biggest townreads on the off chance im wrong. for literally zero gain. Even if dats flips scum, I am going to tell you both mastina and titus are still town. It literally changes almost nothing how dats flips to me. Except I only lose a townread when it does flip town and what r u going to do? Ohh you just lose your paranoia over mastina.

Yeah. Not worth

Lol how can a Datisi scum flip change nothing? Even if you still think mastina and Titus are town.

[UNOwen]

I thought it would be too obvious, but now as I've seen 2 scumreads flip green TSQ is standing out more as scummy

This is a wrong timeline btw, as furtive had turned against the king before either Johnny or VPB flipped.

I sort of think it's town though. There isn't really a point to this progression for scum (same with the Enchant vote).

[UNOwen]

Think LLD suggesting to kill Datisi is town, but not sure now is the time to be thinking of that. In theory mastina should be getting killed tonight and Datisi gets another cop check tomorrow.

[UNOwen]

UNVOTE: Firebringer
VOTE: Eiralox

E-1

[UNOwen]

back to thinking Unowen could be scum since my LLD/Dann pushing a shit town read on Unowen is now a dead theory.

Challenge: Firebringer

[UNOwen]

Why are you making it easier for Firebringer to avoid fighting me?

[UNOwen]

No, don’t accept

[UNOwen]

Well then I want him to refuse for all to see

[UNOwen]

If someone was roleblocked we would already know.

[UNOwen]

I think it's convient how mafia killed all trackers beforehand and when it was in firebringer hands they SUDDENLY got gigaplan to perform save.

I don't understand.

[UNOwen]

Challenge: ProfessorDrapion

Firebringer clearly doesn’t want to fight.

[UNOwen]

the fact scum want me dead might be a clue to why

What?

[UNOwen]

Did Firebringer seriously get doc’d/ jk’d last night?
Is that what he’s saying?

[UNOwen]

Because the scum didn't know who to kill and in all probability, just shot Firebringer.
Something council members would know not to do.

HahahahahahhahahahhahahahahhahHahahahahahahahhaha

[UNOwen]

After Firebringer flips scum I want to execute every single one of the council

[UNOwen]

In what world does a scum team comprised of some variety of me/GuiltyLion/Enchant/furtive/Drapion/Roden ever kill Firebringer?

In what world does that happen???

[UNOwen]

I can’t wait to read council pt to find out what sort of insane voodoo magic is being pulled there

[UNOwen]

VOTE: Datisi

[UNOwen]

On phone only for next few days

Haven’t given the back and forth too much thought but I agree with the logic of executing Datisi sooner rather than later, the “give him one more day” argument seems to only be guaranteed at least neutral if we don’t execute today, which I don’t think is desirable. Because it’s boring.

[UNOwen]

So there was definitely scum on the kingsguard then.

[UNOwen]

Fireisredsir should’ve been protected?

[UNOwen]

So there was definitely scum on the kingsguard then.

Were you on the Kingsguard last night?

Yes, GuiltyLion, LLD and Titus were the others

[UNOwen]

Scum on kings guard + scum on council means furtive/drapion/enchant conf town?

[UNOwen]

I’m not in a hurry to kill mastina, if she executed she gets overthrown

[UNOwen]

Gg all!

King for only a night, what a cruel fate...