Weird Dreams Mafia Redux [Finished]

[Radical Rat]

Damn, you guys have been busy.

I'm a Miller btw

[Radical Rat]

For D1 at least, is there any reason the nightmare SHOULDN'T include everyone?

HURT: All of the above (Korina please don't make me type it all out

[Radical Rat]

Well, you could always check. I think it would be a waste of an ability, but it can be done

[Radical Rat]

For D1 at least, is there any reason the nightmare SHOULDN'T include everyone?

HURT: All of the above (Korina please don't make me type it all out

Reposting since everyone seems to have ignored it

[Radical Rat]

Also is it really best to hurt everyone?

I only like hurting those I love.

My thinking is that in an ideal world we would have all Town and no scum in the nightmare, but since D1 reads are... not usually great... This way we can at least guarantee all of the Town gets in, AND we have more meaningful content to form reads going into D2.

[Radical Rat]

Also is it really best to hurt everyone?

I only like hurting those I love.

My thinking is that in an ideal world we would have all Town and no scum in the nightmare, but since D1 reads are... not usually great... This way we can at least guarantee all of the Town gets in, AND we have more meaningful content to form reads going into D2.

Ok, I get that.

I want more people who were in the first game, and smarter to the mech side of things than me, to offer their opinion though.

I forget Rat, were you in the first game?

I was in a hydra with biancospino, but didn't actually get to participate much because I was busy early on, and then well. Y'know.

[Radical Rat]

I once had a dream that.....
I once had a dream that..........
I once had a dream that...............
I once had a dream that..........
I once had a dream that..........
I once had a dream that..........
I once had a dream that..........
I once had a dream that..........
I once had a dream that..........
I once had a dream that..........
I once had a dream that..........
I once had a dream that..........
I once had a dream that..........
I once had a dream that..........
I once had a dream that..........

the silence spoke

Post restriction?

[Radical Rat]

Nevermind, don't know why I didn't get a P-edit

[Radical Rat]

Loyal Fruit Vendor is only really better than an IC assuming that there are no blocking/interfering roles, which... would be very odd in role madness I think?

[Radical Rat]

Cult Leader Enabler is interesting, but I don't think it works unless we know the name of the cult leader role?

[Radical Rat]

Wait if we can specify a modifier too...

Bulletproof IC, easy game

[Radical Rat]

It says in accordance with Normal guidelines, so I'd say Normal page counts

[Radical Rat]

Definitely good to double check though

@Mod

[Radical Rat]

Wait if we can specify a modifier too...

Bulletproof IC, easy game

Bulletproof does not exist on this page so I'm guessing it wouldn't work that way: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... _modifiers

It is on this page though
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Normal_Game

[Radical Rat]

The problem with Enabler is that, while somewhat ambiguous here, it functions based on role name, and we don't know what that is. We do have the standardized names in our PMs too, but I don't know if that would count for an Enabler since it's just a description and not the ACTUAL role name.


P-Edit: That too, cults are explicitly non-normal

[Radical Rat]

I think it pretty clearly falls under the "If I have to ask implosion" clause

[Radical Rat]

Innocent Child is an explicitly Normal role, and Bulletproof is an explicitly Normal modifier, so on paper that should be fine

[Radical Rat]

The link I sent is the page that covers the Normal Guidelines, and if you scroll down Bulletproof is on the list of explicitly Normal modifiers

[Radical Rat]

If Korina comes back and says we can't, then that's fine, but rules as written it SHOULD work

[Radical Rat]

IC can be an action, and that version is explicitly Normal

[Radical Rat]

According to the IC wiki page, under the Normal section, that's how it's commonly used, so I don't think it needs to be called anything special

[Radical Rat]

JOAT is a modular role so would a JOAT (IC, Fruit Vendor) be legal?

I would guess not, since it says we grant "one action"

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: Rautherdir

You seem to be really opposed to ICs existing, huh?

I will concede the cult point is a good one, but it is bizarre how much you're trying to get out of having confirmed alignments on the board

[Radical Rat]

If we math out when a hypothetical Cult would have critical mass, and enforce claims just before that point, that should work

[Radical Rat]

Though that depends on whether they started with just a cult leader, or an amount of default cultists exists...

[Radical Rat]

That's what the Bulletproof is for

[Radical Rat]

Attempting a pure nightmare is more worthwhile as it becomes more feasible.

Personally, I do not feel at all confident in picking out seven high confidence townreads on D1, and even less so seven townreads I can convince everyone else on, so I'm working under the assumption tonight's nightmare is just gonna have scum in it regardless, so better to ensure everyone gets to participate and at least avoid the terrifying possibility of a MAJORITY scum Nightmare.

[Radical Rat]

Namely, we're going to make a scummier player a day 4 IC or something like that. And probably continue until we have three of those on day 4. We either force scum to shoot with the nightmare picks, or... risk getting a whole bunch of conf town all at once. Or just get outright revealed as scum if we do land lucky shots on scum.

Why would we give up Bulletproof for a day restriction instead of just... telling them not to reveal?

[Radical Rat]

Regardless and in any scenario deep mech talks in this game in day phase is distractions. Based on game design we need to find scum and town and vote town for nightmare as best as we can. rest is not important for day itself

I find the mech discussion to be helpful for sorting alignment as well. Beats the heck out of RVS anyway.

[Radical Rat]

... Are PGOs Normal?

[Radical Rat]

Fair enough.

Had a brief vision of Disloyal PGO, which would be very spicy, and potentially change how I wanted to approach this whole thing

[Radical Rat]

I don't think we can do backups since it's not an "action"

[Radical Rat]

Same for Enablers probably

[Radical Rat]

i feel confident enough to make my own nightmare vote now

HURT: snivy, ranger, merlyn, drew, abnegation

in order from most to least towny of the 5

We need 7 if you want an IC.

(I know, mech talk, but like. Obviously the number of people we should be voting is not something we can reasonably put off)

[Radical Rat]

what would we get out of wagoning someone who is just gonna get prodded and replaced? (because they haven't posted)

I agree with this. If WhemeStar shows up, I'd be down to wagon though.

In the meantime, consider Rautherdir. You'll have to read the mech talk, but like. His contributions to the discussion have been focused around finding any excuse possible to not create Bulletproof ICs, in a manner beyond the expected concerns about legality.

In particular, I'd highlight the repeated suggestion of sacrificing not only Bulletproof but ANY useful modifier in favor of a day restriction that we know would be irrelevant when the ICs are just open to being shot anyway. That's not just a bad idea, it's a malicious one, especially when so many of his other suggestions are just ways to make a worse IC.

[Radical Rat]

But you weren't arguing that, at least not primarily. You were trying to suggest a string of obviously worse abilities as being somehow better.

[Radical Rat]

Well, that's not how it appeared to me

[Radical Rat]

These suggestions are all just "IC but made worse" being peddled as "best strategies."

Yeah. And I mean. We could even make it compulsive IC actually.

Hmm.... day 4 ICs maybe?

With everyone in the Nightmare chat....

Day 4 or Day 5 ICs I think might be the best strategy. Cult can't recruit them until after they get revealed, if town then scum is forced to kill the targets early and basically hand their kill over to town's control, or they get to deal with a wave of conf town all at once and have to pick and choose between them afterwards...
I'm not sure how many night kills are in play right now so day 4 is probably the safer bet.

Tree Stumps is... conditionally better depending on the circumstances of a players death. if an investigative dies without having revealed information we might want to let them share their results for example.

Vig is potentially good as well but probably less valuable then either of the above.

If we can get a large solid town block early then Housing might be good.

And this one is a potentially viable alternative, situationally, but your suggestion of BP as a modifier indicates that you did accept it as valid, and your suggestions were not actually based on the assumption it was illegal.

BP doctor or such might be conditionally useful once we have more of a town block.

[Radical Rat]

I would strongly advise reading the mech stuff anyway if you can. Even if you don't understand/care about the mech itself, you can look at how people are treating it and try to see the mindset they're in.

I hate the concept I keep seeing crop up in games that mech isn't helpful or "game advancing." I get it's not for everyone, but it does matter and is relevant.

[Radical Rat]

We could also pick who to IC during the day?

Not unless we're putting everyone in the Nightmare, and even then it's a discussion better saved for the night after we have at least one flip to go off of

[Radical Rat]

Random idea:

We ask every player to name 7 people for their nightmare tonight. We add up the results and the seven most voted people do it.

Positives:
A lot of information for future nights
Generally townread people get put in

Negatives:
Scum working with more information than town?

Elaborate on scum getting more information from this?

[Radical Rat]

As far as I can tell reading the rules the whole 5-x thing is completely irrelevant unless someone gets dayvigged or something.

A proposal by default must have five players, and no one gets confirmed unless a proposal reaches majority, and the only way out is if someone dies, which if we had only voted for a five person nightmare would drop below the minimum threshold and we'd have to vote again I think?

[Radical Rat]

.... wow is me playing to my town meta in Conception really going to screw me over twice?

But really there isn't much I can do to defend myself against the original argument for why I'm scum even if I wanted to.
I'm being scum read for having bad takes and not clarifying my assumptions with every mech post I make. All I can do now is try and look at everyone else and get reads... which early on I'm terrible at.

For what it's worth I think there's a chance at least one scum is pushing me, I'm just trying to figure out why. DragonEater I don't think is that though, and I like a lot of what else they're posting. Drew I'm going to agree with Ranger on and keep them as town... Python and Radical Rat I think were decent enough though the latter should probably be resolved one way or another at some point due to their claim. THOUGH. I believe we can actually do that without flipping them... by using Inquiry to ask if Radical Rat would investigate as an alignment they are not. (Doesn't actually confirm alignment on it's own since both scum and town can have roles that can do this.) That leaves... Aureal and Abnegation... Abnegation I'm... not sure about... I don't see much in the way that leans me town or scum from them. Aureal is just... not present mostly? Hmm. Let me look elsewhere as well, but.

HURT: Doctor Drew, DragonEater, UsesPython, RadicalRat, Ranger
I'll expand it to seven later once I get more town reads and probably change the list some, but. There's an initial list of people I think are town.

VOTE: Aureal
If anything just to get you to do a bit more in the game.

Sure, we could waste a Nightmare on an inquiry that doesn't actually tell you anything useful, or we could y'know. ACTUALLY confirm alignment?

This is what I'm talking about. We've already established Bulletproof IC is legal, and while I am open to alternative ideas if there's something better I'm overlooking, you just keep trying to insist we do objectively worse things instead.

Does a Townie really get handed the possibility of Bulletproof IC and think "Hmmm, I'd rather have a weaker investigation and no protection"???

[Radical Rat]

It isn't confirming, no. It's close, but there are edge cases.

A rolestop is theoretically possible, but this setup falls apart pretty quick if scum can just completely negate the primary gimmick, so even if they have one I don't think it would apply to the Nightmare, and even if it did, why would it only apply to the invention?

[Radical Rat]

Real coolposting hours

[Radical Rat]

My opinions haven't really changed much. Still think Rauth's scum, still don't have seven people I trust strongly enough to feel confident on, but once the VC goes up I'll pick the least objectionable one if we're not doing everybody

[Radical Rat]

This is a mod announcement Doctor Drew has been confirmed to Run The Nightmare tonight. All future proposals do not need to include Doctor Drew, and will automatically include him.

All current proposals will be amended to include Doctor Drew when I’m done with work.

I don't understand the Nightmare voting rules.

I thought the Coalition style meant only a whole proposal got approved at once? What's separating this from how it worked before then?

[Radical Rat]

HEAL: Everyone[/vote]

[Radical Rat]

I tried to play PaRappa the Rapper for the first time today, and understanding KKFC's username makes me scumread him more

[Radical Rat]

I tried to play PaRappa the Rapper for the first time today, and understanding KKFC's username makes me scumread him more

I am now realizing I misread the username and this post makes no sense. Ignore me, I shouldn't be awake right now

[Radical Rat]

Half+1 of everyone I think have Doctor Drew included in a proposal right now, so....
We don't want to put everyone in but uh.... Well, I guess we have one person already confirmed in now, so.

i only counted 8, majority is 10.
i don't think that's even how the voting system works. i'm pretty sure what korina said was that you get confirmed to be in the nightmare by being in a proposal (not multiple proposals) that reaches majority.
my impression of it was that someone put doctor drew in there via day ability. idk if i like that.

I'm waiting on the VCs to know for sure, but if this is the case I want Drew dead.

[Radical Rat]

I did have a thought in between failed attempts at sleep.

I think it's obvious scum submitted Drew here, because there's no reason Town would have done it secretly without discussion.

HOWEVER, I am considering rescinding my kneejerk reaction of wanting Drew dead, because like. SURELY scum would have known pulling something like that would put a lot of heat on the one getting confirmed, and does it really make sense to do that to a partner?

Maybe as a last-second effort before the day ends when it's too late to do anything about it, but the middle of the day like this, with everything still up in the air? It's weird, right?

[Radical Rat]

I'd had both Abnegation and Python in my probably Town pile.

Idk, I'm really interested in the VCs around this, but I'm stuck on mobile and do not have it in me to count it up manually

[Radical Rat]

It's +town for Abnegation to notice Drew wasn't at 10 votes to Run the Nightmare in 590. Maybe Abnegation/Doctor Drew are opposite teams?

By "opposite teams" are you suggesting multiball here?

[Radical Rat]

VC later, prods later. (Working a holiday shift.)

This is a mod announcement Doctor Drew has been confirmed to Run The Nightmare tonight. All future proposals do not need to include Doctor Drew, and will automatically include him.

All current proposals will be amended to include Doctor Drew when I’m done with work.

There's just over a three hour gap between these posts. So we can reasonably conclude that whoever forced Drew into the nightmare was active at some point during that window.

Flea, me, DragonEater, and Ranger all posted during that window. This is an imperfect methodology, because there's no guarantee the perpetrator actually posted, but it's a place to start.

Flea, I believe about not being around much, and I don't think fae would do this spontaneously without knowing the gamestate.

I'm me, and I know I didn't do it, but if you're not me I think my questioning of the voting system made it pretty clear I didn't know what happened.

DragonEater could have, but this doesn't seem to line up with his pushes.

And then Ranger started to lightly shade Drew, just before the announcement was made.


So I'll just ask directly. Is this your doing, Ranger?

[Radical Rat]

So I'm supposed to not try to solve anything because something else could have happened, and not ever ask questions because the answer might be different than what I expect?

I acknowledge it's not an airtight case or anything, I point out the lurking possibility already, but I'm working with what I have here. And I do find it curious that you're already presuming Ranger would deny responsibility. Know something I don't?

[Radical Rat]

So I'm supposed to not try to solve anything because something else could have happened, and not ever ask questions because the answer might be different than what I expect?

I acknowledge it's not an airtight case or anything, I point out the lurking possibility already, but I'm working with what I have here. And I do find it curious that you're already presuming Ranger would deny responsibility. Know something I don't?

Why would town!Ranger put Drew in the nightmare when she was also shading him?

That's something I'd hope a hypothetical Town!Ranger who submitted Drew would be able to answer.

If she's scum who didn't, I don't know how she'd approach the accusation, but I would like to find out.

If she's not responsible at all, then yeah, she'll probably just say no, but I think it's ridiculous to say I shouldn't ask because she might say no. That's... the whole point of questions? To see what someone says?

[Radical Rat]

So I'm supposed to not try to solve anything because something else could have happened, and not ever ask questions because the answer might be different than what I expect?

I acknowledge it's not an airtight case or anything, I point out the lurking possibility already, but I'm working with what I have here. And I do find it curious that you're already presuming Ranger would deny responsibility. Know something I don't?

yeah putting drew in the thing is just something scum did and is a scumclaim (if someone claims it we should flashwagon them)

and it’s simply going to be completely impossible to deduce who performed that scum action just based on the posts in thread. we know it won’t lead to anything. so it feels performative

Do you disagree that the action was most likely submitted within that three hour window? While it is true someone could have been lurking, it is guaranteed that everyone who posted was in fact present. It is not guaranteed that the people who posted are responsible, and I admit as much, but like. It's SOMETHING. And I'm actively trying to figure out how much to take away from it.

Maybe I come up empty, maybe I find something worth pushing forward more, but how am I supposed to know if I don't try? Just never act on anything unless I have a 100% confirmation that can never truly exist (outside of some Open setups anyway)?

[Radical Rat]

Which to be fair I am also a little guilty of. No, the person who did this shouldn't claim yet if town, we don't need that confirmation in order to get a better picture of Drew's alignment. I don't think this confirmation alone makes Drew scum. (Probably, unless scum used it on a partner for... some weird reason. If we're in multiball that might also be a reason it could happen with Drew scum, and more likely of one.)

So probably not scum from that, though I still don't like Drew's posting more recently. Regardless the fact they got confirmed to run the nightmare shouldn't impact reads on them or be a reason to vote them on it's own.

p-edit
No, saying Radical Rat was, by asking Ranger directly if they did or didn't. That's just textbook role fishing.

I think it is far more likely scum did this, regardless of reason, than Town did this. Therefore, I think finding who did it is (probably) finding scum, and if it WAS Town that did it, they'd better have a damn good excuse.

Technically I guess that IS rolefishing, but it's... different.

[Radical Rat]

Well, it's kind of a moot point since Ranger's refusing to answer anyway.

I believe I understand why she's refusing, so while I would personally much rather she give a straight answer, I will accept this as a dead end... for now.

[Radical Rat]

To be fair it is beneficial for town to keep information about roles hidden from scum early game.

And this is why I'm begrudgingly okay with it.

It's a balance that in this case I think is merited, but in the absence of better reasons to scumread her on top of it, I recognize is just going to be pushing against a brick wall. And Ranger is a brick wall I don't feel like pushing against this time. Yet.

[Radical Rat]

HEAL: Doctor Drew, Abnegation, Aureal, Radical Rat, usesPython, DragonEater70, Titus

It's Python's proposal, minus Ranger.

I officially no longer want to eliminate Drew (today), but Ranger is a big enough question mark for me that if we ARE trying to make a pure Nightmare, I don't want her in it yet.

[Radical Rat]

I did have a thought in between failed attempts at sleep.

I think it's obvious scum submitted Drew here, because there's no reason Town would have done it secretly without discussion.

HOWEVER, I am considering rescinding my kneejerk reaction of wanting Drew dead, because like. SURELY scum would have known pulling something like that would put a lot of heat on the one getting confirmed, and does it really make sense to do that to a partner?

Maybe as a last-second effort before the day ends when it's too late to do anything about it, but the middle of the day like this, with everything still up in the air? It's weird, right?

what, you're on #TeamInsomnia too?! Excellent. I am having the same thoughts, it seems too wolfy to be wolf. I also don't like this: a couple of folks including me were expressing doubt on Abnegation, who said she'd get some reads done for real this time. Then suddenly she started talking about the drew notice from the mod and now she's the co-chair of the nightmare proposals with python. It's an awfully effective way to get attention of you

Cycling back to this now that VCs exist, but I don't really think it holds water. Two votes isn't really enough to be a serious threat, and the leading wagon was Rautherdir at time, and his wagon actually DID get mostly dispelled in the confusion.

But also the momentum was dying anyway, so it seems unnecessary? Definitely entering WIFOM territory now though

[Radical Rat]

HURT: Usespython's votes

VLA now until July 7th. MS stability issues.

I haven't read since my last post but I don't want a dead slot atm. I'll look after surgery but I might be high AF.

Hope everything goes well for you

[Radical Rat]

I think that if the one who did it is Town, they should come forward and talk about why, because from an outside perspective it makes no sense as to why Town should have done that, especially given how it worked out for you last time. So if they get caught later without fessing up, that's worse for them.

That said, I can see why Ranger's refusing to answer, and the evidence sadly just isn't strong enough for me to insist on it yet, and I'm not strong enough to win an argument with Ranger over it without that evidence. But it has taken Ranger out of my presumed Town list.

[Radical Rat]

So what do you want me to do then? If trying to figure out the cause and reasoning of what I believe to be a scum motivated action ISN'T scumhunting, what is?

How is this NOT "playing Mafia?"

[Radical Rat]

So what do you want me to do then? If trying to figure out the cause and reasoning of what I believe to be a scum motivated action ISN'T scumhunting, what is?

How is this NOT "playing Mafia?"

How exactly are you going to find who put me in the Nightmare unless they come out and claim it?

Literally explain this to me.

I gave a little bit of my thoughts, but you seem dead set on finding out exactly who did it......in lieu of looking at the moving parts around all this.

Pre Edit: Pretty much what Rauth said.

I AM looking at the moving parts around this.

I started by narrowing a pool of likely suspects that pointed toward Ranger. Ranger refused to answer, I acknowledge that I don't have enough to push further yet, and then once the VCs went up I looked at the wagons of the time to investigate Merlyn's suggestion about it being to distract from Abnegation, and have used my conclusions to make a new Nightmare proposal.

I'm not just sitting around going "Hmmm, who could it beeeeeeee??????" I'm looking at evidence and asking questions and trying to use the limited information we have to find scum, and suggesting otherwise is either indicative of not reading, or deliberate misrepresentation.

[Radical Rat]

Players who posted (and therefore were known to be active) in between the announcement you were in the nightmare and the previous mod post.

[Radical Rat]

Finally able to get onto the site to post.

I like how Radical Rat is trying to figure out who put Drew into the Nightmare, but isn't it more likely that scum were talking in their own PT about doing this? I could see how if they're talking in there they would intentionally not talk in here during the time Drew was added to the Nightmare.

Interesting "neither confirm nor deny" post from Ranger though. The discussion around the post reads either like 1) a game starved for progressing posts or 2) post that actually hit scum?

This is also possible, and it's why I'm not tunneling Ranger over it.

But if you're a detective, and a murder was just committed, do you start by looking at people you know were at the scene of the crime, or do you just shrug your shoulders and go "Could have been anybody, guess there's no point in looking"?

[Radical Rat]

The scene of the crime is mafiascum.net

If they posted in the thread, during the estimated time the crime was committed, they were online at the time.

There's not an easy way of knowing who was online and didn't post, so it isn't an exhaustive list, but it's a starting point. Of those that we knew were there, Ranger is the most likely, and while her evasiveness isn't on its own proof of anything, the suspicion is strong enough that I don't want her in the Nightmare because of it.

[Radical Rat]

The scene of the crime is mafiascum.net

If they posted in the thread, during the estimated time the crime was committed, they were online at the time.

There's not an easy way of knowing who was online and didn't post, so it isn't an exhaustive list, but it's a starting point. Of those that we knew were there, Ranger is the most likely, and while her evasiveness isn't on its own proof of anything, the suspicion is strong enough that I don't want her in the Nightmare because of it.

Why would scum!Ranger be evasive instead of just saying she didn't do it when thread consensus seemed to be that it was scum doing it?

Because Ranger's smart enough to know that refusing to answer is +Town, and that if she Did do it and gets caught later after a hard denial it'll be even more difficult to talk her way out of it than it already is.

I'm giving her space because of it, but I don't trust her enough right now to want her in the Nightmare, especially when we already have the numbers without her.

[Radical Rat]

She could definitely be doing it as Town, yeah. I'm not saying it's impossible. Notably I'm not voting her over it. I just don't trust her right now.

[Radical Rat]

I read the circumstances around it as pointing to her. Her response itself is slightly Town indicative, and I acknowledge the evidence as largely circumstantial at this point, but it's not at a point where I trust her right now.

[Radical Rat]

In this case it's relevant to the Nightmare. We have seven people without her, I think she's a liability, so even if it's just to sate my paranoia, can we like. Not have her in? That's all I'm asking at this point.

[Radical Rat]

Oh my bad, I got mixed up on hurt/heal lol.

HURT: Doctor Drew, Abnegation, Aureal, Radical Rat, usesPython, DragonEater70, Titus

[Radical Rat]

I'm not able to engage with 30 pages of mech. I'll just give my opinion if selected.

Can someone summarize cases?

Rautherdir has spent the whole game bending over backwards trying to find ways out of creating Bulletproof ICs, and it's REALLY weird.

Doctor Drew has been put into the nightmare by a day action, with no announcement or discussion by the player who did it.

Ranger has circumstantial evidence pointing toward her being the one to have done that, but refuses to answer to keep PR WIFOM up.

Most everyone else I've seen being voted have been for varying flavors of "not doing enough"

[Radical Rat]

I'm confused why people think scum!rauthe would do whatever rauthe did to make himself look scummy

If it had worked, it prevents Town from using a strong strategy and allows scum more control over the gamestate.

[Radical Rat]

I'm not going to stop using it as the reason I'm voting you, because it IS the reason I'm voting you.

And no, it isn't because you were looking for alternatives, it's that the way you went about it looks malicious.

I've been making a conscious effort to not engage with it further, but if people are asking why I'm pushing you, I'm gonna tell them.

[Radical Rat]

Like I feel pythons argument is "why wouldn't you ask that in your scum pt you dingleberry" and the logical conclusion is that rauthe doesn't have one

But I'm only kind of skimming so maybe I'm missing something

Because it's not about actually getting an answer, it's FUD tactics

[Radical Rat]

Ranger is a big enough question mark for me that if we ARE trying to make a pure Nightmare, I don't want her in it yet.

I think that if the one who did it is Town, they should come forward and talk about why, because from an outside perspective it makes no sense as to why Town should have done that, especially given how it worked out for you last time. So if they get caught later without fessing up, that's worse for them.

That said, I can see why Ranger's refusing to answer, and the evidence sadly just isn't strong enough for me to insist on it yet, and I'm not strong enough to win an argument with Ranger over it without that evidence. But it has taken Ranger out of my presumed Town list.

The scene of the crime is mafiascum.net
If they posted in the thread, during the estimated time the crime was committed, they were online at the time.
There's not an easy way of knowing who was online and didn't post, so it isn't an exhaustive list, but it's a starting point. Of those that we knew were there, Ranger is the most likely, and while her evasiveness isn't on its own proof of anything, the suspicion is strong enough that I don't want her in the Nightmare because of it.

Why would scum!Ranger be evasive instead of just saying she didn't do it when thread consensus seemed to be that it was scum doing it?

Because Ranger's smart enough to know that refusing to answer is +Town, and that if she Did do it and gets caught later after a hard denial it'll be even more difficult to talk her way out of it than it already is.

I'm giving her space because of it, but I don't trust her enough right now to want her in the Nightmare, especially when we already have the numbers without her.

She could definitely be doing it as Town, yeah. I'm not saying it's impossible. Notably I'm not voting her over it. I just don't trust her right now.

I read the circumstances around it as pointing to her. Her response itself is slightly Town indicative, and I acknowledge the evidence as largely circumstantial at this point, but it's not at a point where I trust her right now.

In this case it's relevant to the Nightmare. We have seven people without her, I think she's a liability, so even if it's just to sate my paranoia, can we like. Not have her in? That's all I'm asking at this point.

There's a fundamental issue with Radical Rat's logical process here.

I don't care to explain the hole in their process rn; it's there if you think about it.

Still, while Rat having it is nai, the players going "that's legit" are instantly sus.

If I'm wrong (about maybe being wrong I guess?) I would very much like to know why

[Radical Rat]

Like I feel pythons argument is "why wouldn't you ask that in your scum pt you dingleberry" and the logical conclusion is that rauthe doesn't have one

But I'm only kind of skimming so maybe I'm missing something

Because it's not about actually getting an answer, it's FUD tactics

Sorry, what's FUD?

Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt.

Basically it's using rhetoric meant to undermine confidence in an idea one finds unfavorable. You see it crop up a lot in marketing and politics.

[Radical Rat]

Look. If kills happen before invention awards that doesn't change which invention we should reward. Since that affects all invention awards equally.
It DOES affect how we should give the awards. It would have meant we should definitely try to only put 7 town into the Nightmare, if the person gifted to gets killed then we can guess that scum is within that much smaller group of people then.

So I'm confused why this latest thought of mine is getting used to scum read me since it's an argument for the plan you all are currently proposing and I also fail to see how suggesting it is scummy.

I agree with this more or less, and it's why I've stopped really pushing for an everyone nightmare, but the problem I have is that this isn't how you initially presented it.

You said "wait what order does the kill happen in" and then said "there are

also

reasons we shouldn't do everyone" implying that these are two separate thoughts.

It's the same as earlier where you claimed to be suggesting downgraded ICs because you didn't think Bulletproof IC would be legal, but your list of suggestions included both components, showing that you didn't actually believe either was illegal.

It's post-hoc justification after it backfires.

[Radical Rat]

I'm here and reading. Updates to come, doing some thinking, but I will say Kirigiri feels very Town on a first pass

[Radical Rat]

So, I think I figured out my big logical error. If I'm correct, it explains a lot about Ranger's weirdness, but that's all I'll say on the matter for now.

In terms of Kirigiri, I like her entrance, and I strongly disagree that she's just taking "easy" stances. Semi-recently I spent like half a game trying to push a Traitor, after correctly realizing one existed and who it was, but no one would listen to me about it and it was a major contributing factor to us losing. I don't think that's the angle scum tries to take if they're going for easy, non-controversial pushes.

[Radical Rat]

oh and also that if non-Town get awarded the invention then it just fails (Since IC is only normal for Town) and that nightkills go through after the invention gets handed out so scum can't kill them when they know in advance who's getting it

?????

Didn't we just have a big to-do about how we shouldn't have talked about whether or not kills are foiled by that invention award? I'm probably misreading but it sounds like you're saying that they are blocked by it, and I think that's inaccurate.

We already established NAR would have the invention apply first. Ideally we would have just let scum fuck around and find out, but it's already been said now

[Radical Rat]

I'm kind of stuck here tbh.

I'm admittedly cooling a bit on Rauth, Ranger's probably just Town after all, and nothing else has really screamed scum at me yet.

Rauth's still topping the charts for me, so I guess I'm staying put, but it bothers me that by this point in a game this large I don't have anything better to go off of.

[Radical Rat]

Well in that case, you're not doing what I thought you were doing, and now I'm just more confused.

[Radical Rat]

@Mod

Are both votes required to end the day, or only the elimination vote?

[Radical Rat]

I thought I had worked it out, but it has now become apparent I was wrong. I haven't decided what that means about you yet.

[Radical Rat]

Alright, so here's where I'm at.

I don't have any idea what's going on with Ranger at this point. But I stand by Town wouldn't have just tossed Drew in without any kind of discussion about it. Even Drew last game at least asked first.

The logical flaw I THOUGHT was being highlighted was assuming Town wouldn't have had extra info on Drew to make a decision that he needed to be added to the nightmare without revealing that information. This is apparently not the case though.

So I am doubling down on my assessment that this time around it's far more likely to have been from scum. That may or may not have been Ranger.

For one reason or another though, scum wanted Drew in the nightmare. Maybe it was a diversionary tactic, or maybe they were afraid a Nightmare would form without scum on it, or maybe they have a unique benefit to Drew specifically being on the nightmare.

Right now, the only person who really stood to be a beneficiary from the nightmare thing as a diversion would be Rauth, but even then it was a stale wagon and I don't think he's behaving like someone trying to deflect attention. So I'm willing to bank on scum having some other reason to submit Drew. And I want to deny them that.

This does mean we'll need seven non-Drew people to run the Nightmare, and I do not want Ranger among them right now. I'd propose adding in StD, if people are amenable. Out of those not already on the list, I think he smells pretty Town.

[Radical Rat]

Suddenly I am overcome with the urge to trust Drew unconditionally

[Radical Rat]

I thought I had worked it out, but it has now become apparent I was wrong. I haven't decided what that means about you yet.

Can you do me a favor and make the connection you originally missed obvious to me? I remember remarking at the time that your logic was tenuous but hopefully I can see why it's totally broken at this point in the game.

Here I'm referring to figuring out what Ranger meant by a glaring hole in my logic.

The conclusion I came to was that I'd overlooked the possibility of a Mason or something similar. Ranger explicitly saying she has no connection to Drew though means that isn't what happened though, so I'm more or less back where I was originally, but leaning more in favor of killing Drew

[Radical Rat]

Alright, so here's where I'm at.

I don't have any idea what's going on with Ranger at this point. But I stand by Town wouldn't have just tossed Drew in without any kind of discussion about it. Even Drew last game at least asked first.

The logical flaw I THOUGHT was being highlighted was assuming Town wouldn't have had extra info on Drew to make a decision that he needed to be added to the nightmare without revealing that information. This is apparently not the case though.

So I am doubling down on my assessment that this time around it's far more likely to have been from scum. That may or may not have been Ranger.

For one reason or another though, scum wanted Drew in the nightmare. Maybe it was a diversionary tactic, or maybe they were afraid a Nightmare would form without scum on it, or maybe they have a unique benefit to Drew specifically being on the nightmare.

Right now, the only person who really stood to be a beneficiary from the nightmare thing as a diversion would be Rauth, but even then it was a stale wagon and I don't think he's behaving like someone trying to deflect attention. So I'm willing to bank on scum having some other reason to submit Drew. And I want to deny them that.

This does mean we'll need seven non-Drew people to run the Nightmare, and I do not want Ranger among them right now. I'd propose adding in StD, if people are amenable. Out of those not already on the list, I think he smells pretty Town.

If I'm reading this, you feel Ranger is only evil with Rautherdir but the possibility of that is strong enough to keep Ranger out of the nightmar

Not necessarily. I think, regardless of Rautherdir, Ranger is most likely to be the one who put Drew into the Nightmare, and that due to the circumstances around it, the person who put Drew into the Nightmare is likely to be scum.

There exists enough room for error that I don't want to definitively say 100% that Ranger DID do it though, so I don't want to eliminate her without more evidence yet, but I don't want her in the Nightmare until I figure it out properly.

[Radical Rat]

Also can you update your nightmare vote to not include people you're actively scumreading?

Oops. Missed Aureal was in there.

HEAL: prior proposal

HURT: Doctor Drew, Ranger, usesPython, Abnegation, KatyKimFanclub, Rautherdir, Radical Rat, sheepsaysmeep, Morning Tweet, camelCasedSnivy

Why ten people? Should we not be minimizing the number of people we put in, since more people increases the odds of scum slipping through? Are you really THAT confident in your townreads this early?

[Radical Rat]

Alright, so here's where I'm at.

I don't have any idea what's going on with Ranger at this point. But I stand by Town wouldn't have just tossed Drew in without any kind of discussion about it. Even Drew last game at least asked first.

The logical flaw I THOUGHT was being highlighted was assuming Town wouldn't have had extra info on Drew to make a decision that he needed to be added to the nightmare without revealing that information. This is apparently not the case though.

So I am doubling down on my assessment that this time around it's far more likely to have been from scum. That may or may not have been Ranger.

For one reason or another though, scum wanted Drew in the nightmare. Maybe it was a diversionary tactic, or maybe they were afraid a Nightmare would form without scum on it, or maybe they have a unique benefit to Drew specifically being on the nightmare.

Right now, the only person who really stood to be a beneficiary from the nightmare thing as a diversion would be Rauth, but even then it was a stale wagon and I don't think he's behaving like someone trying to deflect attention. So I'm willing to bank on scum having some other reason to submit Drew. And I want to deny them that.

This does mean we'll need seven non-Drew people to run the Nightmare, and I do not want Ranger among them right now. I'd propose adding in StD, if people are amenable. Out of those not already on the list, I think he smells pretty Town.

If I'm reading this, you feel Ranger is only evil with Rautherdir but the possibility of that is strong enough to keep Ranger out of the nightmar

Not necessarily. I think, regardless of Rautherdir, Ranger is most likely to be the one who put Drew into the Nightmare, and that due to the circumstances around it, the person who put Drew into the Nightmare is likely to be scum.

There exists enough room for error that I don't want to definitively say 100% that Ranger DID do it though, so I don't want to eliminate her without more evidence yet, but I don't want her in the Nightmare until I figure it out properly.

Fair. Thank you for patience. I don't want to accidentally put words in your moth.

If you feel that scum put Drew in the nightmare, then doesn't it follow scum are pushing his wrong opinions or Drew is scum himself.

That, or scum are expecting us to think that and mislim Drew. Which is why I bring up Rauth; he was the leading wagon at the time, so if Drew is bait, he's bait to get us away from Rauth... but there was no real urgency around Rauth so it seems more likely to me scum are actively supporting Drew, like you say.

[Radical Rat]

... I'm now realizing I forgot to actually change my vote. This has probably caused confusion.

HURT: Abnegation, Aureal, Radical Rat, usesPython, DragonEater70, Titus, Save the Dragons

VOTE: Doctor Drew

[Radical Rat]

... I'm now realizing I forgot to actually change my vote. This has probably caused confusion.

HURT: Abnegation, Aureal, Radical Rat, usesPython, DragonEater70, Titus, Save the Dragons

VOTE: Doctor Drew

Is this a gamestate read or are you also independently scumreading Drew?

Mostly gamestate, but I'm certainly not Townreading Drew.

[Radical Rat]

Because I do not believe that someone with such an ability would just pop it D1 without any indication or discussion.

If Ranger had fessed up about it, I MIGHT have believed the Drew puns/offering to pay Drew royalties immediately before the announcement were crumbing, but she has now explicitly denied that possibility, and I don't think anyone else really has anything pointing toward abnormal information about Drew.

[Radical Rat]

The suggestion was a Town Informed role did it. Can't be informed without information

[Radical Rat]

for all we know, scum could have noticed that ranger was making

drew

puns and put him in there to cast suspicion. idk.

This is possible. Fortunately, I think a Drew flip helps with assessing that

[Radical Rat]

I mean if everyone just doesn't read and therefore doesn't contribute anything, then yeah the people who are reading and discussing things are going to end up continuing arguments.

Be the change you want to see.

[Radical Rat]

Abdeg and Katy are prob scum

Wait what's the Abdeg case?

unless you're talking about the pagetop in which case nvm

A bit vibey, and yes involves that.

I have literally never seen a scumteam intentionally coordinate for pagetops. I thought you were joking when you said that

[Radical Rat]

I could definitely be persuaded on Merlyn, I agree that she seemed to be trying to pocket me somewhat, but I do think we should prioritize locking in a Nightmare team before it gets too late

[Radical Rat]

My main stipulation is Not Ranger, and not Rauth. I'd also still prefer we boot out Drew, but no one else really seems to care so I'm probably not getting my way on that one

[Radical Rat]

I could definitely be persuaded on Merlyn, I agree that she seemed to be trying to pocket me somewhat, but I do think we should prioritize locking in a Nightmare team before it gets too late

is there an earlier deadline for that

No, but the elimination ends the day regardless of if we've hammered a Nightmare proposal yet.

[Radical Rat]

My main stipulation is Not Ranger, and not Rauth. I'd also still prefer we boot out Drew, but no one else really seems to care so I'm probably not getting my way on that one

i agree on not rauth and i can understand not ranger. would you consider re-voting your old proposal (not sure whose proposal it is now) of the 5 i mentioned + de70 and titus?

Yeah, I can do that. I believe it should be yours unless I missed you switch earlier.

HURT: Abnegation

VOTE: Merlyn

[Radical Rat]

I don't think we can get a consensus pure nightmare without compromises anymore just due to the fact that we had an anti-mind meld with Aureal and don't tr her hard enough to put her in the Nightmare.

Would you be okay subbing in StD? I don't need Aureal specifically, but I am very firm on not wanting Ranger in yet.

[Radical Rat]

StD's ISO being a big nothingburger is how you know he's Town.

sheep's whole thing of calling me wolfy for daring to ask questions about the events unfolding around me I really really don't like

I could do Snivy?

[Radical Rat]

All I know is one time I was in a game where StD was making wall posts and actively engaging, someone called him scum for it, and I thought it was a silly reason, but he was indeed scum.

Haven't been in a game with him as scum since, but he's been mostly chill and relatively low activity every time.

I normally don't like to rely on meta reads, but haven't been steered wrong yet with StD.

[Radical Rat]

HURT: Doctor Drew, Abnegation, Save the Dragons, Radical Rat, usesPython, DragonEater70, Titus

[Radical Rat]

My main stipulation is Not Ranger, and not Rauth. I'd also still prefer we boot out Drew, but no one else really seems to care so I'm probably not getting my way on that one

i agree on not rauth and i can understand not ranger. would you consider re-voting your old proposal (not sure whose proposal it is now) of the 5 i mentioned + de70 and titus?

Yeah, I can do that. I believe it should be yours unless I missed you switch earlier.

HURT: Abnegation

VOTE: Merlyn

Currently though what's your reason for voting Merlyn. As much as I don't care for her ignoring my question and posts I'm not quite at the point of casting a vote that way. Is it more or less a pressure vote?

I thought the attempt to steer The Drew Incident onto Abnegation was a bit odd, and she seemed weirdly deferential to me during that discussion. I'd tossed it on the deal with it later pile, and now the wagon has momentum and my more preferred wagon doesn't, so later has become now.

[Radical Rat]

I could do Snivy?

StD's ISO being a big nothingburger is how you know he's Town.

We can also do snivy

Why Snivy?

Basically what Python said. I just went down the list and picked someone I didn't have an immediate "No" reaction to

[Radical Rat]

We really should be voting for at least seven people, as that's the requirement for Normal Invention, which most everyone agrees is the best option

[Radical Rat]

We really should be voting for at least seven people, as that's the requirement for Normal Invention, which most everyone agrees is the best option

We can vote for 6, since DD is already in (and would count as one of the seven).

Sure, but Nurse only had 5, which makes the total 6.

[Radical Rat]

This game is big and reads lists just don't work for me, so I'll say what I'm noticing now.

Ranger feels Town to me due to having that large fight with Kyoko. Kyoko I slightly TR due to their level of engagement as well, but the game is still way too young. Merlyn ignores questions or posts directed towards her, and then apparently assumes there must be Scum on her wagon if a handful of people vote her; I've never played with her or most of you before so I don't know her meta. I do get the feeling Katy could be Town, asking those questions. I don't really feel too strongly about the other players currently though. I could see usesPython, Rat, and Snivy as possible Town. As for the rest I'm not sure because it does feel like most of my posts have been ignored and to be honest I DO want players to actually start engaging with me instead of making me feel invisible.

Is there anyone you think might be scum so far?

[Radical Rat]

I am due to be released today with instructions.

Glad to hear it, hope the recovery's quick and easy

[Radical Rat]

Damn it, now I'm nervous, but I feel bad punishing effort if he is Town.

[Radical Rat]

here's a town wall i posted that helped solve the game

viewtopic.php?p=13751825#p13751825

Yeah, alright you can stay for now.

Back to trying to avoid meta reads for me.

[Radical Rat]

My main stipulation is Not Ranger, and not Rauth. I'd also still prefer we boot out Drew, but no one else really seems to care so I'm probably not getting my way on that one

Yeah, pretty much this exactly. It's kinda scary how much Rat has been on the same page as me this game.

what if...WhAt If YoU tWo ArE sCuMpArTnErS!?!?!?

Don't play my paranoia like this, I already have a problem being an easy pocket

[Radical Rat]

i think my paranoid brain wants to scum read python

Personally, I think changing their mind on you for the nightmare despite already having a compromise available is what pushed Python from probably Town to lockTown, if that helps.

Scum!Python wouldn't have had any incentive to double check your meta, and probably wouldn't have gone through those negotiations anyway since Python being in the Nightmare would already guarantee a scum presence.

[Radical Rat]

curious why people townread Titus

It's a somewhat weak read, but when she's been here she's seemed genuinely invested and asking thoughtful questions, showing what looks to me like a desire to solve

[Radical Rat]

also just so its clear, im willing to condemn anywhere in [aureal/bianco/rauth/python(though I doubt)/wheme(maybe)/StD]

You townreading Merlyn?

[Radical Rat]

also just so its clear, im willing to condemn anywhere in [aureal/bianco/rauth/python(though I doubt)/wheme(maybe)/StD]

You townreading Merlyn?

This seems like a good way to address this. Why aren't you townreading me? When I saw that I was the bottom of ranger's reads without her speaking to me once or even commenting on my posts, I thought, okay, let's see what happens, I won't bring it up unless she does. She still hasn't addressed it, and in fact no one who is voting me has made even one case against me.

My main stipulation is Not Ranger, and not Rauth. I'd also still prefer we boot out Drew, but no one else really seems to care so I'm probably not getting my way on that one

i agree on not rauth and i can understand not ranger. would you consider re-voting your old proposal (not sure whose proposal it is now) of the 5 i mentioned + de70 and titus?

Yeah, I can do that. I believe it should be yours unless I missed you switch earlier.

HURT: Abnegation

VOTE: Merlyn

Currently though what's your reason for voting Merlyn. As much as I don't care for her ignoring my question and posts I'm not quite at the point of casting a vote that way. Is it more or less a pressure vote?

I thought the attempt to steer The Drew Incident onto Abnegation was a bit odd, and she seemed weirdly deferential to me during that discussion. I'd tossed it on the deal with it later pile, and now the wagon has momentum and my more preferred wagon doesn't, so later has become now.

[Radical Rat]

Essentially, it felt like you didn't really have firm stances of your own, and were instead just trying to gauge and reinforce mine.

[Radical Rat]

Damn it, now I'm nervous, but I feel bad punishing effort if he is Town.

You've played me.
Effort is not AI.

It has been in the past for StD specifically. That's the nervousness I'm expressing here, along with concern that I don't want to put him in a box and prevent him from ever putting in effort as Town, which is one of the issues I have with meta tells like that.

Essentially this post was "My confidence is lower but I still want to give you benefit of the doubt"

[Radical Rat]

I apologize in advance for mechanical talk again, but I think something like Loyal Neighborizer might actually be stronger then Loyal Rolecop, given the latter requires revealing the role in public which... can be less then optimal.

I would not recommend using either as a backup though:
Both run into a rather large issue: a cult recruit can mimic both of those functions. It's good for finding non-recruiting scum, but recruiting scum can just... use recruit instead and generate the same results by asking the recruited player to play along. Even if they aren't the recruiting player themselves, given Loyal Neighborizer/Loyal Rolecop are both technically normal for scum to have, not only will the cult player get the power still, the cult player can also just... use the gifted ability on the targeted player anyways at the same time as they are recruited and make it appear that they did in fact do the action to any watchers/trackers/etc.

If for some reason we can't do Bulletproof IC (Likely due to not having seven+ players in the Nightmare, or on the off chance if scum have a role that can prevent certain Nightmare powers from being selected), then probably Vigilante or Inquiry should be used instead.
If a town investigative dies at night before they've claimed, we can consider if Tree Stumps would grant enough information from them to make it worth more then Bulletproof IC.
If we have a role that can tell how many people were town in the nightmare, then we might want to consider doing Housing if we can get a large number of town players assembled and determined.
Unless those conditions happen though, Bulletproof IC is just... way too valuable to consider anything else.

While we don't have explicit confirmation of how it works this game, the last version of the setup had the cult hard limited to two people at a time, and could only attempt recruitment twice the whole game.

The specifics may have changed, but I think it's fair to assume the cult is still reigned in for a similar balance.

[Radical Rat]

Doesn't mean that cult can't fuck with it using whatever recruitment they do have, but that's true of most abilities.

I'd agree neighborizer is better than rolecop though. But we can worry about that when we actually need to

[Radical Rat]

Feel like neighborizer is way worse since the person using it might not be town?

Loyal is a modifier that means you can only use the action on players of the same alignment.

So a Mafia Loyal Neighborizer could only add Mafia to a neighborhood which is... obviously useless. Cult is useless for the same reason, SK couldn't use the ability at all, but for Town it's essentially a Masonizer.

Though I'm also very interested in this take. Since you apparently didn't know what Loyal did, why would you say a Scum Rolecop is better than a Scum Neighborizer?

[Radical Rat]

Oh. Yes, it is worse than IC, because you can't get Bulletproof and Loyal at the same time.

This was about backups that we're talking about because.... why are we talking about backups? We already established it was legal, what the hell Ranger?

[Radical Rat]

But we already have confirmation from the mod that it WILL work. Bringing this up to suck us down the mech black hole again only serves as a distraction.

[Radical Rat]

Preferred: Python, Abnegation, StD, Aureal, Titus, Kirigiri, Radical Rat

Fine: Snivy, DragonEater

If I Must: Flea, KKFC, Nurse

No: Sheep, Merlyn, Drew, Rautherdir

[Radical Rat]

Preferred: Python, Abnegation, StD, Aureal, Titus, Kirigiri, Radical Rat

Fine: Snivy, DragonEater

If I Must: Flea, KKFC, Nurse, Wheme, Morning Tweet

No: Sheep, Merlyn, Drew, Rautherdir, Ranger

Edited to include Wheme and Tweet, who I forgot exist, and Ranger who I could have sworn I already put in No, but mysteriously vanished

[Radical Rat]

The problem with democracy is that I don't get what I personally want B(

[Radical Rat]

I will acquiesce though, we're starting to reach a point where we can't really be dragging things along anymore, and odds are I'm wrong in one direction or another

[Radical Rat]

I don't really know what to give to this game atm. I've asked for anybody voting me to, you know, share why and it just hasn't happened. I think I'll just be around until someone flips me or we get to D2. It's a bummer, this looked like a fun game.

I mean, I think I've been pretty clear about it. I know Ranger's at least implied much of the same thing. A few people have said it's because you don't seem to be contributing much.

Being the D1 lim always sucks, but you aren't being voted for nothing, and people have expressed their reasoning.

[Radical Rat]

HURT: Ranger

But be it noted I'm grumpy about it.

[Radical Rat]

That isn't my personal reasoning, it's just a sentiment I've seen expressed generally, which I mention to counter the assertion that no one has given any reasons.

As I have said already, my reasons are that the attempt to push Drew's surprise confirmation onto Abnegation felt strange, and the way she immediately backed down and shifted to align with me when I disagreed with her seemed like a potential pocket attempt.

[Radical Rat]

I just wanna say I'm explicitly NOT sheeping Ranger here.

I happened to come to a similar conclusion, though I didn't immediately vocalize it because I had other priorities, but honestly Ranger bringing it up is my biggest CONCERN about the wagon.

As of right now, I still think it's the correct play, but I am very iffy on Ranger, and I don't like that she's trying to take credit for everything. Like it's true that she has brought up these points, but I know she wasn't the first to poke holes in the Everyone Nightmare, and while she may have been first to mention Merlyn being weird around me, she also made no effort to actually start the wagon until other people did.

The same can be said of me about Merlyn to an extent, but like. I'm not trying to claim credit for it, beyond refuting accusations of not having a reason.

[Radical Rat]

Do you not think providing a convincing alternative would help your position here?

[Radical Rat]

Do you not think providing a convincing alternative would help your position here?

Maybe, but I'm of the opinion- hey, maybe it's wrong- that I shouldn't have to solve the game D1 and offer someone else up in order to not get limmed. Even if I had no scumreads, I would still be town and this would still be a crap wagon.

You shouldn't have to solve the game, but generally when I'm being pushed and I'm innocent, I'm VERY concerned about who pushing me is scum and why.

[Radical Rat]

Do you not think providing a convincing alternative would help your position here?

Maybe, but I'm of the opinion- hey, maybe it's wrong- that I shouldn't have to solve the game D1 and offer someone else up in order to not get limmed. Even if I had no scumreads, I would still be town and this would still be a crap wagon.

You shouldn't have to solve the game, but generally when I'm being pushed and I'm innocent, I'm VERY concerned about who pushing me is scum and why.

Are you also very concerned about showing everyone how concerned you are? I'm not. Sometimes it's smarter to keep your thoughts to yourself for a while and let things play out.

Sometimes it is smarter. I don't think that time is now.

[Radical Rat]

Do you not think providing a convincing alternative would help your position here?

Maybe, but I'm of the opinion- hey, maybe it's wrong- that I shouldn't have to solve the game D1 and offer someone else up in order to not get limmed. Even if I had no scumreads, I would still be town and this would still be a crap wagon.

You shouldn't have to solve the game, but generally when I'm being pushed and I'm innocent, I'm VERY concerned about who pushing me is scum and why.

Are you also very concerned about showing everyone how concerned you are? I'm not. Sometimes it's smarter to keep your thoughts to yourself for a while and let things play out.

Sometimes it is smarter. I don't think that time is now.

Me: I think some of the people on my wagon are scum

Two of the people on my wagon: TELL US WHO RIGHT NOW ITS NOT TOWN TO NOT TELL

I'm just trying to understand you here. I can't work with you if you don't work with me. I can't promise that I will change my mind, but I need to have some kind of insight into your thought process before it's even possible for me to see anything beyond what I've already seen.

[Radical Rat]

HURT: Doctor Drew, usesPython, Abnegation, Aureal, camelCasedSnivy, Save the Dragons, Radical Rat

ugh, i like this proposal better but i think we're pretty much locked into the other one.

I like that lineup much better as well, and would vote it in a second if we had the numbers for it.

[Radical Rat]

I don't think switching is a good idea yet. If we can get a verbal commitment on it from more than the seven we already have, I'll move then.

But as it is now, splitting the vote effectively just means scum can take their pick last second.

[Radical Rat]

Also RR your Ranger SR makes a critical assumption that I don't think is necessarily true, but it's also -EV to point out the error so that's all I'll say about it

My list of Nightmare preferences isn't the same as a readslist. I recognize my arguments for Ranger are hinging on a specific scenario I cannot prove, and have oscillated a lot on whether I believe it myself, and I agree with her arguments in the Kyoko fight that Drew makes more sense to resolve first, however I ALSO know that if there's a disagreement, Ranger is going to be one of the most difficult people to argue with about it, and if she's scum, she's one of the ones I think could successfully leverage a nightmare presence to her advantage.

Basically I'm willing to give her leeway for now, but if I do happen to be right on her, I do not want to be stuck all night fighting with her arguing in bad faith.

[Radical Rat]

RR can you explain your sheep sr to me? You don't like 650 but he thought you were town outside of that in 661?

It was a very strong gut reaction to being told me putting in effort and trying to solve a game is "wolfily pointless," combined with a relatively lackluster slot overall. Also worth noting that while sheep did drop it pretty quick, Drew ran with it a bit longer.

[Radical Rat]

And yet, that isn't actually what happened. It sparked interactions, and while her ultimate answer was a refusal to answer, the context around it and seeing how she reacts to the questioning are valuable. Plus, I don't actually agree that it was a foregone conclusion she would never admit to it, and that there's merit in letting her answer for herself before trying to guess what she might say.

Even then, I wouldn't have had as strong a reaction if it had JUST been called pointless, though I still strongly disagree. It's the assertion that it's not only pointless, but scummy to even try that puts it over the edge for me.

[Radical Rat]

Well, so much for not splitting the vote prematurely.

[Radical Rat]

if she's scum, she's one of the ones I think could successfully leverage a nightmare presence to her advantage.

I'm honored by the respect shown to my scumgame. Given my recent scum neighborhood performance, it's likely warranted. Still, this respect shouldn't deny optimal play. If you think there's a reasonable chance I'm town, then paranoia's no reason to keep me out.

The problem is I Also think there's a decent chance you're scum. And you attempting to strongarm your way in hasn't really helped that.

I'd already mostly resigned to you being in anyway, since I'm in the minority for distrusting you it seems, but there is a growing temptation for selfishness.

I'll stick to this proposal if you want to be in it, I won't support the 10/11 player lineups because that's too many points of failure and makes it harder to find where the fault lies should one arise.

Should the vote continue to splinter, I will back Kirigiri's proposal instead, because I actually like that one instead of tolerating it.

[Radical Rat]

I mean we still have three days, it'll be fine. We can figure out which of Wheme or Merlyn we want in that time, or someone else perhaps.

Three days is less time than it sounds like, especially in a large.

IDEALLY we'd have already sorted out the nightmare business by now, but we're going to be cutting things close on both.

[Radical Rat]

The problem is I Also think there's a decent chance you're scum. And you attempting to strongarm your way in hasn't really helped that.

The reason I've wanted in is specifically because I know my claim would help people, yet I've no desire to give it openly to all. As I said, I was always intending to claim if I trusted the members within. I simply wasn't planning to announce it prior to N1.

I mean, yeah, obviously that's what you say either way here. And against my better judgement, I'm still voting for your proposal because you've given me just enough room for doubt, but you'd better have one hell of a claim in there.

[Radical Rat]

I have a moral opposition to actually eliminating empty slots without hard evidence. I know it's annoying, and unlikely to change any minds, but the replacement deserves the chance to attempt some kind of defense.

[Radical Rat]

Is there a reason Abnegation is suddenly dropping so much?

[Radical Rat]

What's Wheme at now?

[Radical Rat]

7 by my count. Very well then.

VOTE: WhemeStar

Should be E-2

[Radical Rat]

I have a moral opposition to actually eliminating empty slots without hard evidence. I know it's annoying, and unlikely to change any minds, but the replacement deserves the chance to attempt some kind of defense.

I wouldn't really call Merlyn's slot 'empty' though? She wasn't acting like she was busy or anything, just... not doing much but expressing irritation that people would be suspicious of her.

Empty as in it is not currently occupied by a player.

[Radical Rat]

I have a moral opposition to actually eliminating empty slots without hard evidence. I know it's annoying, and unlikely to change any minds, but the replacement deserves the chance to attempt some kind of defense.

I wouldn't really call Merlyn's slot 'empty' though? She wasn't acting like she was busy or anything, just... not doing much but expressing irritation that people would be suspicious of her.

Empty as in it is not currently occupied by a player.

Yeah, but it was. That's probably about all of what we're going to have to work with. Honestly I think the odds of getting a replacement who's going to jump into a 70-page 19-player game and get serious enough to turn the slot around before deadline are not great.

I recognize this, and scum have managed to slip by because I've done this before. But it still never sits right with me. We're here to play a social game with other people, and rushing through a slot with no person feels antithetical to that is all.

WhemeStar conversely, is a slot that IS occupied by a player with an opportunity to play, but has consistently done basically nothing except make vague promises of doing things later. I always struggle to read lurkers, but it's better than nothing, the support is there, and I don't have to feel guilty about doing it.

[Radical Rat]

Wheme votes bad.

VOTE: Merlyn

you said she had town energy, what changed? were you convinced by python's reaction test?

As I mentioned before, things have changed a bit in regards to my reads.

And I hate this Wheme push.

VC happens and see Merlyn is the main wagon.

Oh No, let's move votes off her.

Puh......lease.

Merlyn's been the main wagon for a good while now. Why would it have taken so long to move if this is the case?

[Radical Rat]

... That's just correcting a typo with a joke

[Radical Rat]

F

[Radical Rat]

If you don't think it's true, why do you think people would see it looking at your meta?

[Radical Rat]

Welcome aboard CSF!

[Radical Rat]

And I hate this Wheme push.

Can somebody explain it to me? Is everyone suddenly voting Wheme just because Ranger changed her vote? What's going on?

Merlyn stalled out, then replaced out, Wheme was a nothing slot I was okay taking a chance on, and now that his defense is that Ranger correctly identified his scum meta, but she's scum for doing it lazily... Not super inclined to move back to CSF tbh.

[Radical Rat]

no im more likely to lurk as scum but idk if i consider what im doin lurking im just disassociated

?????

[Radical Rat]

I have not independently verified this meta, nor do I intend to, but like. What are you trying to pull here???

[Radical Rat]

Just throwing out that while there's no guarantee there's one this game, there WAS a strongman shot available to scum last game, so let's maybe not get too ahead of ourselves with announcing targets, yeah?

[Radical Rat]

I have a bad gut feeling about the Snivy wagon. The actual points made are solid, but it doesn't vibe with me.

[Radical Rat]

I meant the wagon in an abstract sense, not the composition. Though I'll acknowledge it being started by one of my scumreads and a counterwagon to another isn't helping the vibes much

[Radical Rat]

I've liked most of his Nightmare suggestions, and though you're right that it's odd he never did much with the Python read, I don't see much point in scum!Snivy holding onto it that long, and also Snivy is a green Pokémon, and green means Town.

[Radical Rat]

I'll commit to doing an ISO later with an open mind, but idk, the vibes are just. All off here. It doesn't feel right.

[Radical Rat]

Alright, I ISO'd Snivy, and my conclusion is that this is a person operating without teammates. Reads like somewhat lazy town to me, could theoretically be cult or another third party if Korina decided to spice things up, but I'm still not vibing with the lim.

[Radical Rat]

No, that's not quite right. I'm saying I think you look like Town to me personally, and that you explicitly do not look like groupscum, but that there isn't enough to completely rule out you being third party.

If I thought you were actively scummy, but just couldn't find a pairing, I'd vote you anyway.

[Radical Rat]

VCs momentarily. Deadline is unpaused at 3d10 hours from this post, as I am referring to an old conversation with T-Bone involving a similar incident with an extended deadline pause due to replacements. I am also deferring to this conversation for how to handle any actions. Any questions regarding this can be answered post-game. Please know I am attempting to resolve this as best I can while preserving the game-state as it stands.

Cosmos Mafia Flashbacks

[Radical Rat]

You translate 1726 for me, then. It took three days but I thought I finally got it. Guess not! What the heck does it mean?!

Seems pretty clear.

VC was posted where Merlyn was close to Lim.

Ranger, StD, and Alianna all move off Ranger to Wheme.

Wheme is limbait.

IE, the Wheme push is shit and scum motivated.

Probably all three of these listed are not scum.....but this implicates Merlyn/CSF as scum at the very least.

Now for the love of God, let's lim them and get to the Nightmare so I can work my magic.

Why would they make a wagon on Merlyn, just to switch off onto Wheme instead of committing to the bus? You only get bus credit if your partner actually flips.

[Radical Rat]

I'll admit, I think the wagon change looked forced, but to me it looked more like a perception that the wagon had stalled, and an attempt to try something else and hope it'd go through. Which could honestly come from either Town or Scum. I have my reservations about Ranger, but I don't think this really indicates a Ranger/Merlyn(CSF) scumteam, and I townread StD and Abnegation enough to trust them on it.

What DOES look aligned to me is CSF repping in, and immediately trying to shift the wagon off of Wheme while his attempts at defending himself implode.

[Radical Rat]

Ngl, in spite of disagreeing with most of this, I'm kind of liking Drew better for it

[Radical Rat]

It's a very funny idea. Not one I believe for a second, that'd be a completely ridiculous role, but it'd make a great title after the game's over.

Assuming mastina ever got the thing stopping her from assigning titles figured out.

[Radical Rat]

I do find the idea of a Savior going "No, stop it, you're defending yourself all wrong, let me do it" to be REALLY funny. But it'd have to be an explicitly troll game I think. Or maybe toss it in the Grand Idea thread.

[Radical Rat]

Nah if I get limmed before Ranger tries to explain how I’m in my scum Meta then so be it

I don’t even feel like defending myself what is going on this game

Maybe it’s all the wall posts I’m to lazy to tackle. I was gonna sheep python and while I’m fine with a wagon on me I’m not gonna self vote

Found these while looking for that comment too.

[Radical Rat]

UNVOTE:

I want to think about this more. I think a scum traffic analyst isn't impossible, and it would explain the expressed apathy about being eliminated, but I don't think mistaking it for catching true out of game communication is a mistake that would have lasted long in a scum chat, and is very unlikely to have been faked.

[Radical Rat]

Why would someone who thinks they're basically a cop say things like "a lim on me wouldn't be bad"? Makes me think of this.

I remember him saying this, but isn't it possible he thought his role was only to find cheaters and thus it's kinda useless (at the time)?

I’m Eric I analyze traffic I can target a player and learn if they can communicate with someone outside of game

So I’m pretty sure I’m a cop

These thoughts are in the same post. They simultaneously were thinking the role is pretty much a cop and that it's for outside influence. I'm not sure I can follow that logic, but it's right there that

Wheme

supposedly did.

Seems more likely that a scum buddy just gave them a claim to post and they misread it than something Wheme was thinking all along.

Wouldn't a buddy be like 'specifically say this'?

You are making some reeeeaaaalllll leaps here.

I'm still processing this, no conclusion yet, but I can say that if I were scum I'd just give a role and not write a whole post for a buddy.

[Radical Rat]

Yeah, and I'm leaning towards this being a true claim for now.

Just hard to reconcile "I think I'm a cop" with that kind of complacency with the wagon...

[Radical Rat]

oh wheme is out of E-1 i wanted to see what claim they could've possibly had

Why not just vote for them then.

I don't think its them though, I'm just curious as to their claim

"One of the other significant wagon targets just unvoted me and said they would self vote to end the day, this is definitely a time for me, WhemeStar, to claim"

?

I made up my mind about unvoting wheme after csf started pushing me. All I was saying is I was curious to hear a claim, nothing to do with my reads.

preferably not a wheme flip, but if i must...

Snivy, can you talk about this a bit?

If I'm reading this correctly, you didn't think WhemeStar was scum, but you DID want to see him forced to claim. Why?

[Radical Rat]

Alright, so why haven't you claimed, if any info is good info, that applies to the rest of us right?

(This is NOT a request for you to claim, I just want to know your thought process)

[Radical Rat]

Alright, so why haven't you claimed, if any info is good info, that applies to the rest of us right?

(This is NOT a request for you to claim, I just want to know your thought process)

I wanted any piece of info not based solely on logs that's it

massclaiming obviously outs our most important prs since mafia have tmi on that

What do you mean "based solely on logs?"

And did it not occur to you that Wheme, or anyone else since it was apparently non-specific, might have been one of "our most important PRs?"

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: camelCasedSnivy

Look forward to an explanation in the morning

[Radical Rat]

Because I think he doesn’t say outlandish things like this as scum and tries to post more reserved

Is this personal experience, or just a general theory?

[Radical Rat]

I'm sorry, the Rautherdir/Snivy wagons are sus because you weren't on them?

If anything, I'd expect you to be worried about scum currying favor with you, not being the Independent Thought Police, what the hell?

[Radical Rat]

The fact people formed the first wagon since Rautherdir without my involvement is imo, fairly suspect.

The Rautherdir wagon formed on its own prior to my contributing; once I had, it fell apart. It's not suspect.

So is it suspect or not?

[Radical Rat]

Okay, I apparently missed the word "since," that's my bad.

So is your position that Wheme intentionally faked misunderstanding what a traffic analyst does?

[Radical Rat]

...
Right when I think we're getting somewhere, and this happens.

I have a hard time believing Wheme genuinely thought he was hammered here, like. Several of the unvotes were while he was still here talking about the claim. Surely he should have known he wasn't at E-1 anymore, at the very least

[Radical Rat]

Bruh in my mind I was still e-1 with the python unvote and then they voted me so I double checked by Isoing korina and the last vc is the same one

Abnegation unvoted while you were still actively engaging with the thread

[Radical Rat]

Also you were clearly aware of the Snivy wagon, since you were talking about it to defend him and try to corral people onto Ranger.

Yeah, this has to be a gambit.

VOTE: WhemeStar

I'd have been convinced if you didn't try the hammer stunt

[Radical Rat]

You think fast wagons are more likely scum driven?

I brought it up asking if I should think anything of it and nobody responded so I made my own judgement

So when you asked that, what you meant was "I think fast wagons are scum motivated but I'm open to other opinions if someone feels like disputing my opinion which I didn't even give"? That's... An interesting debate tactic.

Fast wagons being scum is a meta on the site I come from so not sure if its the same ordeal here

Really depends on the game, situation, and players.

Personally, I don't tend to put much stock into wagon speed unless there's something else that makes it seem weird, like a specific block of people consistently controlling the wagons, or if it actually gets hammered.

This close to deadline though, we really can't be picky

[Radical Rat]

Cuz flea isn't doing anything

Isn't that usually more indicative of faer health than alignment?

[Radical Rat]

Flea has always been busy and usually fae have catchup posts but there's a reason thats not happening in this game

I don't believe I have played with them before.

Are they generally a lurky scum type?

Fae can be, but I've also seen faer be lurky Town and active Scum, so I'm hesitant to jump to conclusions here

[Radical Rat]

I do agree that faer absence has been conspicuous, it's just not enough for me to assign a read to it

[Radical Rat]

Shouldn't matter since it goes by plurality at hammer. Welcome aboard!

[Radical Rat]

wait rat has access to a PT?

I was in the Nightmare, lol

[Radical Rat]

So it does.

Anyway, I killed CSF. Merlyn made me paranoid on the slot, figured that'd be the quickest way to resolve it. Only one shot though, so it won't have been me next time.