Weird Dreams Mafia Redux [Finished]

[Rautherdir]

With the claims and flips we've seen so far, and assuming 4 group+a recruitable traitor scum, night 2 there is a potential for 5 scum in pt, four masons, plus three or four people from KKFC's role (which admittedly can overlap with the previous groups) for a potential total of 10-13 players in PTs, with up to 17 total people alive if no night kills. Add a cult on top of that and you easily get potentially every living player in a PT on night two, which invalidates TAs completely. And I'm not even factoring in the Nightmare.

You're forgetting that it forces people to claim they're in a PT and also that a no PT result is basically the greenest check you can get this game

It's also a difference of potentially 3-7 players that can give that result night two without a cult or about 0-3 players with a negative TA result with a cult. Out of ~15 targets.

[Rautherdir]

Normal games also usually aren't multiball I'm pretty sure, which makes mafia or ww/not mafia or ww results and town/not town results identical in effect. (Except for SK games)

[Rautherdir]

With the claims and flips we've seen so far, and assuming 4 group+a recruitable traitor scum, night 2 there is a potential for 5 scum in pt, four masons, plus three or four people from KKFC's role (which admittedly can overlap with the previous groups) for a potential total of 10-13 players in PTs, with up to 17 total people alive if no night kills. Add a cult on top of that and you easily get potentially every living player in a PT on night two, which invalidates TAs completely. And I'm not even factoring in the Nightmare.

You're forgetting that it forces people to claim they're in a PT and also that a no PT result is basically the greenest check you can get this game

It's also a difference of potentially 3-7 players that can give that result night two without a cult or about 0-3 players with a negative TA result with a cult. Out of ~15 targets.

You're forgetting that ~5 people N1 literally have to treat a TA check as either a guilty or a way to fake messenger since unlike Mason/Neighbors they can't just claim to be in a PT without instantly dying

This is admittedly something I hadn't considered.

[Rautherdir]

Exactly, claiming Mason or Neighbor in a game that already has Masons or Neighbors won't work.

Masons, sure. Neighbors is somewhat dangerous but not as counter-claimable. Assuming scum refuses to claim partners.

[Rautherdir]

Anyways. Outside of Normals cops are usually mafia/not mafia I think.

[Rautherdir]

There is in fact a difference between Normal and normal.

[Rautherdir]

Unique is to prevent my Absorber ability from functioning on them. The roles that are Unique should tell you what alignment I am.

My flavor does scream scum though, pfft. I am a dream of a Face Trader.

[Rautherdir]

.... I literally wasn't here for night one and outright said that on day 2. So either I was playing a long game or you think I did something different last night.

[Rautherdir]

Oh yay three kills and apparently a very telegraphed elite bodyguard success. I should note it makes sense for us to have so many TAs in retrospect, they might be our cult cops. (The actual cops going off of the nightmare actions are for the horrible dreams)

Anyways I am having to catch up on things like the elimination result as well, my internet has not been friendly with this site lately.

[Rautherdir]

I'll just go ahead and say this but I know Rautherdir lied when he claimed actions, so you should fade him next.

How?

That's for me to know and you to find out later.

It's already a scumclaim to say as much if the evidence I didn't do so isn't in public, so might as well be out with it.

[Rautherdir]

I did not lie though. I had lingering internet issues that kept me from submitting actions for night one, and the only thing I thought I could confirmed get with absorber night two was the vig from Radical Rat.

[Rautherdir]

Rangers IC I also knew about night two but I guessed it was likely to be unique.

[Rautherdir]

Also I wanted to confirm the masonry wasn't a cult being brazen. Unfortunate timing with that.

[Rautherdir]

I probably should have just started with the theory that there isn't a cult though, pfft. I thought presenting a reason that worked with our assumptions of the game would make more sense.

[Rautherdir]

Out of actions I can steal one shot of IC is one of the more broken ones. And I was informed there were unique roles. Vig was a safe assumption and if it was cult it would probably be a factional ability that I couldn't steal instead of a personal ability and thus I get to check that as well. And then a mason flipped anyways.

[Rautherdir]

Yeahhh they have pretty much scum claimed at this point. They're trying to bring me down as well which I find interesting, though I don't think there is a cult so I'm at worst just third party. I'd guess it means the other scum are likely vig targets, so... Me having two vigs probably isn't good for them.

[Rautherdir]

I was one of the first to vote them today, but fair. (If for a bad reason that I backed off of pretty soon after.)

[Rautherdir]

I'll have to go look at that PoE for targets tonight I suppose... I feel pretty safe doing preflip for Ircher at this point so what do we think about what that means? (Assuming they don't like flip cult or something at which point I'd be very lost)

[Rautherdir]

... hmm. I think I know what to do now then, yes.

[Rautherdir]

With a potential scum redirector in play? Nah.

[Rautherdir]

I will claim what I did tomorrow in the event it isn't obvious, but trying to publicly aim a vig when a scum redirector, deflector, or other such is almost certainly in play is a good way to hand scum a free extra kill.

pedit - there is at least one redirecting ability. I don't think it's a redirector or else I'd holster entirely, but.

[Rautherdir]

VOTE: Ircher
I believe this power to be scum (if beneficial to town, it is immensely more useful in a non-cult scum's hands to keep key town players from getting culted without overlapping on scum already immune to culting)

Why would you want to prevent key townies from being culted as scum? Aren't you going to kill them all the same?

I admittedly might not have been thinking when I made that argument, my primary argument is that I don't think there is a cult, and thus don't think there is an alarmist.

[Rautherdir]

Ircher seems pretty set on getting me limmed so.

[Rautherdir]

Ranger is only a lim if they refuse to trigger IC after the masons ask them to.

[Rautherdir]

I believe scum have figured this out by now so I'll go ahead and say it. My flip would actually prove Morning Tweet and Ranger's claims and make both town, given that both of them claimed the unique modifier before I claimed my role which has the reason for that modifier existing. If Ircher flips with the redirecting component then my night action should be very predictable.

[Rautherdir]

Make both town assuming there isn't a cult. If there is a cult then uh. Hmm. Ircher if scum have a reason to suspect a cult please just tell us because they're probably close to a win right now.

[Rautherdir]

Nightmare mechanic means self-hammer isn't as valuable if we already have a proposal up. Or yeah, vengeful sort of thing.

[Rautherdir]

Annoying cause from my perspective Morning Tweet is almost certainly town, but yeah scum wouldn't be hammering in that situation and this is the odd moment where someone's role works while dead.

[Rautherdir]

Alternatively we try to get the next person in the poe to hammer. Oh and uh I guess I should probably do this:
HURT: usesPython

I have another theory about what is going on but it's not likely I think and I don't know what to do if it is the case.

[Rautherdir]

It's the difference between me trying to shoot scum tonight and me trying to catch cult.

[Rautherdir]

If you have a mechanical reason to think I lied abouty role and actions then uh. Not sure what to tell you cause I said the truth about both.

[Rautherdir]

Scum could also have unique, sure. The main connotation was that your roles were probably true, and both medium and IC are pretty much only ever going to be town roles.

[Rautherdir]

If Ircher is cult I think they might actually be CL anyways. Would explain why they didn't self hammer.

[Rautherdir]

Just... Waiting for the flip pretty much though. I'm pretty sure this is horrible dream and not cult.

[Rautherdir]

Anyway, Rautherdir lied about his N2 action. There's no way that he could have absorbed a vigilante shot from Radical Rat.

Weird, since I've checked twice now and that is definitely what I got.

[Rautherdir]

Absorber might have weird Action Resolution timing, keep in mind.

[Rautherdir]

I can absorb powers that are already used up. I cannot absorb new powers that were given by inventions or such.

[Rautherdir]

I.e. it's based on their original role.

[Rautherdir]

So if whatever happened was on night two my action would have happened first.

[Rautherdir]

Absorber already didn't care about if abilities were taken away or given since the start of the game, so I assumed it might be a bit odd in other ways as well.

[Rautherdir]

I neglected to actually ask if my ability could get redirected though. That probably should have been important to ask given uh... I have a redirecting ability so I knew they were possible.

[Rautherdir]

The first part is all that is needed for there to be a conflict. If two abilities being used would determine how one of the abilities functions, that's a conflict. I already know that absorber doesn't even care about vanillaisation that happened on earlier nights, so. Not caring about redirect especially since copy has higher priority to begin with doesn't seem like a stretch.

[Rautherdir]

Then again, also can't copy inventions, so. Probably more of a nerf in this setup.

[Rautherdir]

Whenever the order of actions matters, that's a conflict

[Rautherdir]

And a deflect plus any other action on the same target creates a conflict.

[Rautherdir]

Wow, that means Absorb probably doesn't even care about hiders or rolestops either.

[Rautherdir]

I think a redirector or roleblocker on me would still affect Absorb though? Weird rules be weird.

[Rautherdir]

Might want to clarify a copy class ability since there's no proof absorber exists yet..

[Rautherdir]

(the question as it is can only be asked privately by me)

[Rautherdir]

All I know is that I got vig from targeting Radical Rat

[Rautherdir]

I've just been assuming Ircher was lying to get me elimed honestly. I assumed redirects would work myself. Though learning that action priority does make me think it might work different.

[Rautherdir]

Welp, there we go.

[Rautherdir]

Boom, headshot

[Rautherdir]

I was very shaken by Ircher's flip but reasoned that my original planned action shouldn't be affected. I feel like I telegraphed that pretty hard.

[Rautherdir]

Yeh. Morning Tweet was town by claim, STD was only scum if Snivy was scum. Snivy was the obvious choice tbh.

[Rautherdir]

Unfortunate that scum didn't shoot or got blocked or I'd be more clear, but. Does make our job easier if there was only one blocking action.

[Rautherdir]

I've expressed not trusting Snivy multiple times.

[Rautherdir]

But also. Too many investigatives, and alignment cop stood out.

[Rautherdir]

Flea and sheep never pinged me and I didn't remember Ircher interacting with them significantly. Dragoneater I thought was mason. KKFC was a good inquiry/investigation target.

[Rautherdir]

usesPython was a potential other shot for being cult specifically but not one I ever seriously considered going through with.

[Rautherdir]

Everyone else was only cult if recruited, and didn't have any chance of being horrible dreams

[Rautherdir]

N1: sheep
N2: sheep
N3: DE70

with two cult dead

I am clear of being CL, unless we think there were multiple starting cult with me.

Cult should be gone, Mentee's die when the Mentor dies

Ircher was not a mentee. There may be other such, but if so they are neutered now and at best another killing faction.

[Rautherdir]

So Rauth question.

Why were you aiming for cult, not scum?

I was most confident in Snivy being scum of either type after Irchers interactions yesterday. I did not have strong reasons to scum read anyone else.

[Rautherdir]

I've listed my thoughts on all living slots as they were last night.

[Rautherdir]

I haven't yet gone to look for traitor signalling, that could have caused me to do something else last night, but vacation so limited time to read.

[Rautherdir]

VOTE: DragonEater
I believe this is a given for me at this point with the information revealed today.

[Rautherdir]

True. Ranger needs to use IC, people need to show up and claim. But I'll go ahead and park my vote. I don't plan on moving it.

[Rautherdir]

N1: sheep
N2: sheep
N3: DE70

with two cult dead

I am clear of being CL, unless we think there were multiple starting cult with me.

Cult should be gone, Mentee's die when the Mentor dies

Ircher was not a mentee. There may be other such, but if so they are neutered now and at best another killing faction.

So you're saying Cult was CCS/Ircher on game start and then DE70 was recruited? That means CCS could have recruited someone tonight, but wouldn't they have died when he died?

... No? Dragon is probably Horrible Dreams.
I'm saying it's possible cult started with three.

[Rautherdir]

They started with at least two. And actually, I'd almost guess that they started with three since no mentees died.

[Rautherdir]

I have a suspicion as to what it is at this point but I'll wait until later for everyone to have shown up and Ranger to have used IC to discuss it.

[Rautherdir]

Actually it is standard for mentees to be lovers isn't it.

[Rautherdir]

I mean. Irchers role was a scum role.

[Rautherdir]

While we're at it.

@Korina

: do killing type actions happen before recruiting actions in action resolution?

[Rautherdir]

Ooh. I assumed the opposite.

[Rautherdir]

... for the second one

[Rautherdir]

... hmm. Irchers flavor doesn't match his role name, does it.

[Rautherdir]

That... Might have been the entire cult then. Wow.

[Rautherdir]

Welp, I think we might just win killing dragon then. I can shoot sheep afterwards if we're still going, then I'm fine being limmed tomorrow if that somehow doesn't end it.

[Rautherdir]

I would like to use my other vig before getting limmed at least. Lets us trim down the poe pool quicker and makes my mislim a bit more even.

[Rautherdir]

Snivy also wouldn't be able to recruit and cop at the same time.

[Rautherdir]

I personally don't see a world where Morning Tweet is scum, so.

[Rautherdir]

I'd prefer sheep instead.

[Rautherdir]

Snivy also wouldn't be able to recruit and cop at the same time.

(Except when motivated)

[Rautherdir]

Honestly just lim sheep or dragon today, I'll shoot the other, and you can use nightmare vig on me if you want. That leaves Flea as the last potential slot in my eyes tomorrow.

[Rautherdir]

If we trust that dragon is a bomb, we could even do a sheep lim, I shoot dragon, nightmare shoots Flea.

[Rautherdir]

Though I'd prefer the former. Less potential loose ends at once.

[Rautherdir]

Oh. Welp.

[Rautherdir]

I wanted to use both my big shots aaaaaaaa

[Rautherdir]

Vig shots. Phone autocorrect why.

[Rautherdir]

Also wait don't you have a traitor as well?

[Rautherdir]

.... Wait. Is it....

[Rautherdir]

.... Guh you might have been able to win that if it's what I think it is.

[Rautherdir]

It is very swingy if my guess is correct and abnegation was completely recruited to town

[Rautherdir]

.... Guh you might have been able to win that if it's what I think it is.

Feel free to explain in the postgame, but you literally announced your intent to shoot me tonight and I'm

almost

the only person who's not mechanically cleared.

The IC also announced they wanted me dead

[Rautherdir]

At least I correctly figured out the cult leader though. So I at least get that mark.

[Rautherdir]

To be fair, our poe pool was less then half the remaining slots, town has one/two vig shots, and if abnegation got completely recruited to town then uh. Yeah this was unwinnable for you. I thought for a moment that abnegation was still horrible dreams in which case you were on track to win possibly, but.

[Rautherdir]

.... Well we'll see what abnegation says.

[Rautherdir]

Look out of all the people Ircher was spewing with Snivy was the only one I didn't town read. And uh. Ircher seemed like the sort to do scum theatre.

[Rautherdir]

.... Well we'll see what abnegation says.

what do you think happened?

your guess is incorrect from what you've hinted, but i'm interested.

You were a mason+mafia traitor, recruitable to either town or scum. That's my current guess.

[Rautherdir]

Possibly you were still scum either way in which case I feel bad for this, but.

P-edit
Ahhhh
Sad then, but a different way

[Rautherdir]

I know in one of the Grand Idea Mafia games I managed to pull off something similar to what you wanted to do, but that was only cause it got close before it came down to either town or werewolves winning along with another faction that was guaranteed to win at that point.

[Rautherdir]

I was expecting two more scum at this point with one being full groupscum though. Do we have a third party somewhere?

[Rautherdir]

You wanna kill me to speak with a dead cultist?

Oh

WAckkk
Good game

A dead cultist that probably didn't even use alignment cop last night for that matter.

[Rautherdir]

Guess we're waiting on Korina to either end the game or uh... I guess it'd be a mod kill if town hasn't achieved their win con yet? I'm not sure how concession works in situations like that.

Pedit
Pfft

[Rautherdir]

Eh. This was actually probably unwinnable for him at this point, even with abnegation's help.

Unless there's an SK that's been holstering all game.

[Rautherdir]

But even then I was going to try and ensure it was sheep, dragon, and me all dead tomorrow morning if I could help it, so.

[Rautherdir]

I had two guns and I wanted two kills.

[Rautherdir]

Yeah. I've managed to trick town out of a win before as .. well not masonry but as part of a cult that could win with other alignments.

[Rautherdir]

Motivation is notably higher when you'd win either way though, to be fair. But yeah, sometimes you want your partner to win instead of town in situations like that.

[Rautherdir]

I wasn't expecting the game to actually end today though, I thought you were group scum and we'd still have a traitor to find. So I'm worried it actually isn't over for town and we have a third party to find still... If not then uh. This feels a little too town sided? Guess I'll have to see the full setup later.

[Rautherdir]

(I might've lied about one or two things.)

In about 8 hours, I can compile the full list.

The scum conceding got in the way of me having fun.

Everything I claimed except being Unique was a lie.

There was no IC, doctor, or chess game. I made it all up.

I did have a day action though!

Chess was a bit too complicated/involved of a mechanic for a role. I was starting to suspect you and usesPython of being cult today pfft.

[Rautherdir]

Also I was right that Irchers role was a scum one!

[Rautherdir]

This game was quite fun even if I got a few things rather wrong. I did legitimately start to think there wasn't a cult yesterday.

[Rautherdir]

GG everyone!
Sorry for cutting your enjoyment short but I knew with certainty I was the last scum, and there were too many clears for me and Abnegation to succeed.

Ranger not being able to use IC might have shaken things up quite a bit and opened up the poe to just over half of town, but it still would have been a struggle and likely would have required getting a lim on me or making sure there wasn't a lim on Ranger depending on what Ranger's day action was.

[Rautherdir]

i was also shocked day 1 when rat already deducted i was third party which is why i had to recruit em

I'm guessing this failed?

[Rautherdir]

i was also shocked day 1 when rat already deducted i was third party which is why i had to recruit em

I'm guessing this failed?

richer bus drove rat and themselves

Ahhh I see. I thought that was happening night one. Night two, yeah, I knew Rat got hit by bus driver at this point since uh. That whole shenanigan at the end of yesterday happened.

[Rautherdir]

Oh, yeah, no redactions from the one nightmare PT I was in.

[Rautherdir]

Ooh, universal backup, that explains two TAs. Also, Ircher was originally scum, thus things ended earlier then expected cause there was overlap.

[Rautherdir]

Honestly, that could have been guessed from role name and flavor.

[Rautherdir]

We could have had a five or six person mason team potentially, since I think Flea would have been able to give mason inventions.

[Rautherdir]

My signature remains apt this game, yay. Even if this time I was town with a vig shot.

[Rautherdir]

I think... most of my reads were correct? If sometimes for the wrong reason. Wheme I was wrong on but I did backpedal on that one before the end. Titus I didn't suspect before they died, Kiri I didn't suspect before they got guiltied... Ircher and Snivy I correctly placed as scum, and I did mostly place everyone else as town. I did place dragoneater as town but they were being claimed as mason so I wasn't gonna get that one correct until the end. Where I did say it was between them and Sheep (and me) so.

[Rautherdir]

I like how I successfully hit scum with my vig and people just got more suspicious of me cause it wasn't the right scum team.

[Rautherdir]

Especially since in retrospect there was no way I was going to be able to place dragoneater correctly at the time, and they were the only other scum alive.

[Rautherdir]

I'm also going to stand by my thought of alarmist being a potential scum role for multiball with a full cult. Since scum have to fight cult as well. (Though I guess they do have a night kill for that as well.)