Good vs Evil, Law vs Chaos Reboot - Game Over, Good wins

[Zar]

Hi. I'm a replacement to Guy-Named-Riggs.

I'm going to do re-reads and come back with thoughts later on the day.

Just in case.

UNVOTE.

Tammy: remind me again why you are using out of game META to defend?

[Zar]

Meh, definitely not enough time to conduct a full Read to get notes on everyone before end of day. #fail

I have fully read the first 15 pages and for the moment I am narrowing my reads to the people I've found somewhat suspicious so far:

Probably some of these things have been covered already, since they belong to the early pages. Still want to bring them up.

ShadowPsc
(not digging the Foxace tunnel from #43 - #75, not digging the early waning of the Norman wagon in #106.)

Tammy
(Her questioning hints to slight defenses #115, #119, #418, #457. While her OMGUssy tunnel of Zdenek for mischaracterization seems genuine, it looks like she's looking to divert the attention, and there's something that rubs me the wrong way about her acknowlegdment of avoiding to bring/use META into games, while she is using META to point out the consistency of her playstyle seems out of character).

FoxAce,
(#82 looks like a backtrack after being pressured, #85 is a wishy washy post, #141 is a poor defense, #146 is another odd backtrack to a vote, #147 looks nervous and over-explanatory)

Something about #20 in Maniacal Lemon makes me want to read him in isolation (bolded to highlight)

"However, if you want to play toward your own factions singular win condition,

of only killing the other faction

, then in my opinion we should alignment claim. Because you wouldn't care about a CE if you are a CG... any way, this set-up probably needs some more thought before I start posting though "
It'd be pointless to not let the scum NK each other."

Also, based on Tammy's back and forth with Zdenek, I'm going to take a look at him as well.

- As for what I read from Norman, his playstyle is self-serving and denotes survivalistic intents, but his secretive motives are not alignment telling. Annoying as hell and distracting? I'll give you that.

I should be back in 10~12 hours:

For now,

VOTE: FOXACE

.
being wishy-washy, back-tracking and nervously overexplanatory are scum-tells.

[Zar]

Tammy
(Her questioning hints to slight defenses #115, #119, #418, #457. While her OMGUssy tunnel of Zdenek for mischaracterization seems genuine, it looks like she's looking to divert the attention, and there's something that rubs me the wrong way about her acknowlegdment of avoiding to bring/use META into games, while she is using META to point out the consistency of her playstyle seems out of character).

Hmmm...it looks like I was wrong and we are cursed to not be on team innocent together once again, huh? So, Zar, how is my question in #457 a slight defense? Considering that 457 isn't a question at all but a response to why I ask questions, you're going to have to do better than that. How are any of them?

Considering there are two team innocents, the odds of both of us being in the same one are rather low, perhaps?

By the way this is my note on your #457. Tell me how my logic is faulty here, please.

#457 Weak Defense against Zdenek (more a reactive counter-accusation), based on "excessive questioning". Tammy's soft attack is based on being possibly halted.

In 115, I'd like for you to point out who I'm slightly defending and why. How is me responding to Greenknight's vote on Avox and asking for his opinion on the debate of the other thread in light of the person he was originally in agreement with who ended up changing his mind a defense of...anyone? I was having a conversation with Greenknight to help me determine what I thought about Greenknight.

#115. You are bringing up a point about AV which I interpret as asking greeknight to reevaluate his position on AV.

In 119, I'd like for you to point out who I'm slightly defending and why. In that post I state that I don't like policy lynches, or comments like the one being presented. If you read you'll notice that Foxace changed Norman's words and suggested a policy lynch. So who am I defending there? I would have said the same thing no matter who had done it.

You are diminishing Foxace's vote on Norman by emphasizing it's policy lynch nature.

In 418, I'd like for you to point out who I'm slightly defending and why. I'm asking your predecessor if that's the only thing he found suspicious about Shadow1 as I was trying to evaluate your predecessor.

Point clarified.

You're stretching, Zar. The sad thing is you know I know you're stretching, and you're still actually trying to do it. So, either you're testing me to see if I'm innocent or you're throwing undeserved crap at me to cast suspicion my way.

Same goes to you, I hope you will be doing better than defending against people find you suspicious by accusing them of "throwing undeserved crap your way."

You are using faulty information concerning meta as well. I told LMP that I try to avoid meta as much as I can when I asked him about how often he uses word choice to catch killers - which if you look at it is me asking him about his playstyle, which is a type of meta that I've always thought was perfectly acceptable. He linked me to a previous game he played to show me an example...that is the type of meta I said I try to avoid. But, Zar, how does me explaining my play style in order to explain myself seem out of character to you?

Struck me as rather awkward you chose to rely on it while you were putting META off in previous posts here. But I guess it seems you find using playstyle META agreeable. Will keep that as a mental note.

I await your response as it should tell me everything I need to know about your alignment.

Do let me know.

[Zar]

Seriously guys, if I do not make it through the night do not take your eyes off of him.

^ LOL

[Zar]

But regardless, I still have scumreads on: Foxace, Haze, greenknight, Lord Mhork, Tammy, norman and trekker in that order. I'm going to put my balls on the table and say that's our scumteams plus one town who is yet to be determined.

Okay. Can you tell us why they're your scumpicks?

[Zar]

BTW Tammy, if you think I'm scum why am I not among your list? <_<

[Zar]

Question is: is it because you think I'm scum or is it because I don't trust you?

[Zar]

Maniacal Lemon / mastin2
#4 Believes aligment claim helps scum over town. - Null Tell.
#20 defends Shadoweh.
#23 Votes CoolDog (no reason given). Responds to #22 by Norman.
#56 claims to have voted CoolDog to get a reaction. Calls Magua's "Daykill" was a rection test.
#59 Thinks Foxace is sheeping Magua.
#68 Slight defense of Norman (just a troll, not scum).
#79 Implies giving Norman a Freepass
#86 Votes Norman after Magua's #80, looks OMGUS.
#305 "Norman is scummier and scummier"
#308 "Reacts to Norman's #306"
#319 Reaction to Norman's WTF #309
#380 points at an inconsistency in Norman's #321 vs. #335
#393 Follow-Up vote agaisnt Norman
#536 Calls Norman "Confusing as fuck", keeps vote on him, but has other scum reads.
#560. Votes top suspect CoolDog
#567. "Cool Dog is Mafia", disagrees to a Shadoweh, Tammy Mobs.
#572. Response to 569, says Norman still seems scummy. (no longer Obvscum), possibility of a Jester?
-
CONCLUSION: I find the previous holder of mastin's slot to be scummy. His contribution is basically limited to reacting to Norman. He's voting CoolDoog, but never gave reasons to his kondi, Pine, MoS scumreads.

As for mastin2:
#971 Votes scumread: Foxace

The rest is: his Hard Zdenek Defense. Mastin vs. The World
#1088 - #1090 - #1091 - #1094 - #1100 - #1126 - #1160 Hard Zdenek defense
Mastin: Why are you so focused on defending a player? Why are you not more interested in finding other suspicious players?

[Zar]

Question is: is it because you think I'm scum or is it because I don't trust you?

Because I believe you're scum. You are parroting and you are deliberately mischaracterizing my intent. You know you are; don't even pretend like you aren't.

So, of all the players that suspect you, how many are mischaracterizing your intent?

[Zar]

Question is: is it because you think I'm scum or is it because I don't trust you?

Serious question Zar. Why did you replace into this game?

Karmic Debt.

Anyway. I am not scum, though. So I'm trying to understand why you think I am.

[Zar]

I just think that it's really strange that after I told you that I thought that at this site it would be a good idea for us not to play in the same game, you deliberately replace into a game that I'm playing in. And you immediately start lying to me about me. I'm trying to figure out your angle. I've already gotten into enough arguments and been called enough names, I will not take it from you too. So, if that was your intent in joining this game, tell me now.

I was asked to replace in. I didn't come in deliberately.

[Zar]

Tammy: how about before making up your mind, you let me post a few of my thoughts on other players and then tell me if you still think I'm scum?

Also, is there anything you found inherently scummy on my previous slot holder?

[Zar]

I actually feel the people picking sides on this are scummier then the arguers themselves, it seems like they're capitalizing on the hard work of others. Zar is the worst example of this right now as Zdenek Jr. Jackal's latest posts have been very appeasey, but I'm weak to what seems like honest earnesty. I'm not sure if that's a real word but it sounds good to me right now.

Care to ellaborate? Why am I the worst example?

[Zar]

So shadowpsc1,

This one's really old...

So Shadow – you are wary of the wagon on Norman because he’s a non-scum hunting troll and those people are lynched for being themselves but you think the entire wagon is Town? Then why were you still voting Foxace since he was on the wagon when you posted this?

You might also note that I've called Foxace town on multiple occasions

. I was waiting for some substance from people that haven't posted/posted much since the restart. I got what I wanted though, so let me read back into the original thread one more time, there was something that struck me wrong.

Where are these ocassions? Because I ISO'd you and I honestly can't find them.

[Zar]

My latest count has Zdenek at 8 and Fox at 10.
Just over 12 hours til deadline.

Tammy's voting Zar. Tammy is scum.

Is that all you've got? Anything else to build up from in the 20 pages you agreed to reading? (since you already stated you're ignoring the other 30?)

[Zar]

I've been giving my opinion in the rest of the game: you've already quoted the post where I've given reads. Why are you trying to make it look like I haven't?

But regardless, I still have scumreads on: Foxace, Haze, greenknight, Lord Mhork, Tammy, norman and trekker in that order. I'm going to put my balls on the table and say that's our scumteams plus one town who is yet to be determined.

Okay. Can you tell us why they're your scumpicks?

Question stands.

[Zar]

[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?
Why is Zar not scum? He has to explain it to me. He lied. He is the only one who can make it right.

@Tammy: I didn't lie. I said what I thought and I asked what I thought I should have. I found your choice of defense a bit... awkward. I am now inclined to think it was the emotional momentum from the D1 confrontation. I don't possess a magic ball to gaze into people's heads to know whether their intents are truthful or not. I work with what I can read, see if their behavior is coherent with what they've been predicating, and if I interpret things in a way that you disagree with, it's who I am.

Anyway... I think shadow1psc is scum:

Shadow1psc:

#10 filler post asking for relevancy of previous day one info.
#43 Voted Foxace for non-commital post #40
#46 slight attack against Foxace because of voting logic.
#48 Prods Foxace = Vote = pressure. Not voting means wishy washy. Not thowing the hat leaves no vote record Stance.
#69 continues prodding Foxeace36.
#75 claims Foxace is not making any pressure with their vote because of quick move.
#76 attacks Norman for suspecting everyone that's voting him.
#106 claims to be wary of the Norman Wagon.
#162 Fluff
#169 Troll Reaction to a Bad post by GNR
#186 "Has called Foxace town on multiple stances" (= Not True)
#190 Votes cooldog after being called out for keeping his vote parked in a town read.
#196 Finds CoolDog suspicious for not commenting on the first 5 pages of the game
#197 Null
#204 Implies Magua's reason to vote him is bad
#206 sarcastic post about being accused of scum in 205 by Magua
#249 Null
#257 Norman Policy Lynch
#375 Wants norman to claim
#532 calls CoolDog out for ignoring his posts
#549 agrees with trekker about cooldog's irrelevancy
#555 dislikes people who go after cooldog but don't vote him, or who don't comment on his CoolDog's thoughts.
#838 Fluff
#842 says scum is less interested in reading about mechanics in his opinion because scum is more informed. Thinks CoolDog's posts are not genuine.
#867 Responds to Mastermind of Sin's inquiry of why he thinks CD is scum based on mechanics questions, while calling MoS town based on previous Out of Game META.
#875 Reinstate dislike of CoolDog's refusal to address his questions.
#922 Votes Norman because of his lack of contribution with the other players
#934. Calls for Norman wagon.
#940 Doesn't mind lynching Pine based on claim.
#1150 fluff
#1152 Asks Tammy about why Norman isn't being considered.
#1154 dislikes Norman's vanishing.
#1178 doesn't think scum buses hard on D1.
#1235 doesn't like either leading wagon.
#1237 Buddying Mastin

Shadow lied about calling Foxace Town, and for someone who has been around since the beginning, has een extremely narrow in his focus: Foxace, Norman, CoolDog. Basically narrows to Norman + CoolDog Tunnels for two weeks.

VOTE: Shadow1psc.

[Zar]

@ Zar, post 1291 (I'm not going to quote something that long on a prior page);

I'm not sure where your case comes from, because you basically highlighted the majority of my posts as contributing/hunting/interacting in meaningful ways.

If your sole purpose here is to highlight the fact that my list of people I'd want hung day one is short, I'd like you to tell me who's isn't, and why they aren't scummy for it. I'd also like to hear why, then, you don't think Tammy is scum.

@shadow1psc: let me see if I got this straight: your defense agaisnt your narrow focus is that others have a narrow focus too? Why are you only focused on two people out of 25 other players? How, in your opinion, does me suspecting you because you have 2 suspects compares to my stance on Tammy?

You have been around since this game started, how is it that of all the players that have come and gone, you only have 2 suspects?. You were very centered of Foxace very early on, but after Foxace started catching on attention you backed out of it. Why did you end up concluding Foxace was town? Also, why did you keep your vote on Foxace if you thought he was town, and changed it after being called out for it in #190?

Also AV: Power Roles shouldn't claim. The less information scum has, the better. I don't think Doc should claim.

[Zar]

My defense against my 'narrow focus' is that your claim (too narrow focus, on day one, in a large theme game with multiple replacements) is ridiculous. There's no really explaining it beyond that. By my account through your 18 posts you've only made two decent reads, one of which is wrong, so where's your broad focus?

I came in late, and it looks like I have engaged more people in my 18 posts and mentioned more people I;ve found suspicious than you have in three weeks, a crashed game, and 50 odd pages. Tell me, why should I not be convinced by your call to stick exclusively to the Norman/CoolDog wagons that you're conveniently keeping away by not making too many enemies scrutinize you?

And my point still stands, why specifically choose me to come with the narrow claim?

Oh, no, don't claim exclusivity rights by any means. My other reads are coming. When I was doing my notes for the first 15 pages, your soft-seeding at foxace's "flaws" made me want to take a closer look at you. Then came your #106, which wasn't shining in Towniness... Out of the blue you decided to claim to be "wary of the Norman wagon", but later were all for it. So I ISO'd you after ManiacalLemon/Mastin (which has yet to enlighten me of his choice of championing Zdenek, BTW). So yeah, I find it strange it took someone noting you were parking your vote on a "Town Read", when you accused foxace of not causing any pressure with his own vote. So tell me, shadow1psc, double Standard much?

[Zar]

The thing with Zar was based on his lying. He's still smug and lying, and I think it's extremely highly likely that he's scum. Innocent Zar had no reason whatsoever to come into the thread and see me in the midst of an argument and start feeding it by parroting and lying about me. Innocent Zar would have had the common decency to let the argument play out on its own. Scum Zar though, would absolutely behave that way. My moving my vote to Zar was based on this as is my vote on him right now.

Just wanted to inform you that whomever gave you the innocent Zar guidebook must have scammed you. First of all, the official guidebook has not gone out for sale. But as a freebie before purchase, I'd like to point out that innocent Zar would have had the common decency of asking you why you keep appealing to consistency before making up his mind of voting you, since it is a scum-tell in innocent Zar's book.

So now tell me, how have your six other suspects shifted since you last mentioned them?

[Zar]

So now tell me, how have your six other suspects shifted since you last mentioned them?

What in the hell are you talking about.  When did I say my suspects shifted for one, and are you suggesting if I did changing my mind about someone is a scum tell?  Are you serious?  You need to be a little more specific in your line of questioning.

I asked you if your suspects shifted and how they did, which means I was asking you who do you still suspect and why. My question never implied they changed to just one and I also never said that changing suspects was a scumtell. Suspects are bound to change if new evidence arises. What I did say was, that to me, appealing to consistency of gameplay is scummy and this applies to any player, even my own Mother if she was playing.

I also have no intention of turning this into a WIFOM defense.