Good vs Evil, Law vs Chaos Reboot - Game Over, Good wins

[Regfan]

I'm going to go watch the most recent survivor episode but I'll make catching up on this game my entire focus tonight after that.

If there's anything in particular people want me to read for during my read through let me know within the next hour or so.

[Regfan]

Hyperion

by Dan Simmons is a really good sci-fi book. I'd be interested in your thoughts on it.

No, any recreational reading time I get goes towards Feast for Crows.

I'm making decent progress on this so far, up to page 20 plus got through the cache file. Got a few strong town reads but I have a fuckload of weak scum reads so far. I'll probably continue reading through for another 2-3 hours and see if I can finish the thread in that time.

Faraday, do you think a mechanic such as "If Chaotic Town is lynched during the day then Lawful Evil don't get a night kill and only Chaotic Scum does" might be in play here because while I realize this is two separate games going on at one time the fact that there's just one lynch throws the balance out of it completely.

[Regfan]

This game would go on forever if there was only one kill a night, and tbh having two night kills

doesn't

feel one sided to me when you've got scum vs. 3 factions and you take away their ability to thin the herd or even target the other scum team with a kill. That's my logical thought process, though I know fuckall about game balance.

3 v 3 v 19 might be fairly balanced in a normal game but in this game mafia have no benefit towards cross-killing.

In normal games multi-scum are balanced by the chance of cross-kills since scum have to eliminate the other scum faction but to win in this game they don't care whether the other scum team lives or dies meaning all of their kills will be aimed towards people they're relatively certain is town. So to counteract this difference towards normal games there's very likely to be some sort of mechanic in place to balance the game.

In other news I'm up to page 51 and my reads are starting to come together nicely though there's about 2-3 players I'll need to ISO.

[Regfan]

Up to page 70 but can't keep my eyes open anymore. Going to sleep, should have my entire list of reads and thoughts up in 10ish hours though.

Also Lost Butterfly, I want a full list of reads up from you guys asap.

[Regfan]

Regfan, are you slipping up already? I'd like an explanation as to how you reached i) your first conclusion regarding consolation nokills, and ii) your second conclusion regarding the scums' win con. What I'm asking for is a thought process and how it came to mind. Thank you.

1) I've already explained why I think there's need for some sort of mechanic to balance out the game and the 1 night kill N1 strengthens it.
2) This post from Seacore in the cache file:

There are two separate towns in this game. Lawful Good and Chaotic Good. Each of these is designed like a fairly standard town.
There are two separate scum teams in this game. Lawful Evil and Chaotic Evil. Each of these is designed like a fairly standard scum team.

The win conditions of each team focus on their opposing aligntment

Lawful Good wants Chaotic Evil destroyed. It does not care if either, both or neither of Chaotic Good or Lawful Evil survives.
Chaotic Good wants Lawful Evil destroyed. It does not care if either, both or neither of Lawful Good or Chaotic Evil survives.

Likewise with scum. Lawful Evil is opposed only to Chaotic Good. Chaotic Evil is opposed only to Lawful Good.

How each faction treats the other two factions that they aren't directly opposed to is up to them and does not weigh into their win conditions.

Also;

Mod: Can you please replace Oobas name with Chesskids in the OP.

My reads will be up in an hour or two, fully caught up now though just got some ISO'ing and organziation to do.

[Regfan]

@ Mos

- I believe he did but it was attached to someone elses post as a response from memory and I'm not going to go hunting for it.

@ Shadowpsc

- I'll go over it one more time. In normal games scum have to take out the other scum faction to win, that's what balances multi-scum. In this game scum don't have to take out other scum to win meaning that it's a lot more scum sided, to balance it there's likely a mechanic in place that limits the kills.

My reads are taking me a lot longer then I predicted, might be another few hours.

[Regfan]

I'm going to do MoS and LB later tonight, MoS because I was flip-flopping him every post he made when I was doing my read through and I need more time spent on him to solidify any sort of read and LB because I'm pretty sure that they're scum (Strong scum reads on all of their predecessors) and their actions haven't come of as town as Faraday normally is though I find myself agreeing with most if not all of his reads so I want to go-over him a few more times.

Spoiler: Town Reads

TiphaineDeath - Strong Town Read:

This slot is town without a shadow of doubt, both Norman and Tiphaine are obvtown. If anyone wants an explanation ask otherwise I won't bother.

Tammy - Strong Town Read

Okay, I really don't understand peoples suspicion of her at all. Her questioning, hearing out responses, stating reads and re-evaluating thought process fits her town playstyle exactly and is a very strong town-tell. Her getting emotional at times isn't a scum-tell either and all of her outbursts read as incredibly genuine as does her reaction towards Zar replacing in and her replacing out. Her back and forth with Zdenek were a complete waste of time to read though.

Zdenek - Strong Town Read

I found his cache posting and his point about how scum can help each other to be a town-tell, as scum he could have kept that to himself and allowed it to benefit him whereas revealing something like that prevents the movement from going forward hindering scums chances of winning. While I strongly despise his push on Tammy I find a lot of it very very genuine, that attached with the fact that I think this fits his town meta more then his scum meat makes me pretty confident he's town.

Chesskid - Strong Town Read:

LMP was one of my strongest town reads from the cache file, his mechanics discussion alongside with his reaction towards Feysals opposition to it came across as very genuine. I also liked his continuation posts in the new thread and Chesskids replace in reads as town as fuck.

Pine - Medium Town Read

While I don't agree with Pines usage of his power or his early game I don't think either are strong alignment related tells. I think his role makes sense as both a town and scum role, as a town role it's essentially a cop since as explained scum have to lie about their lawful/chaos otherwise one faction leaving the game will confirm them as mafia meaning he can cop-check/clear people that have claimed their alignments in the thread for later. As a scum role it finds players they need to shoot, similar to a stalker. With that said there's little reason to lynch him just yet, we'll have him either confirm or convict himself within a result or two and/or a mass-claim in the future. I do find his aggression and anger as a town-tell though as it comes of very genuine.

BBMolla - Medium Town Read

I really do not understand peoples scum reads on him nor the wagon on him. I had a very strong town read on his predecessor and while Molla hasn't contributed too much since replacing in it's something that's fairly common with his town meta and lesser so with his scum meta. I also find his attitude towards the lynch on him to be a town-tell. The votes on him need to disappear before it ends up being locked into a "Deadline is in 5 hours we have to vote him" situation.

Cooldog - Medium Town Read

I find this read very difficult to put into words but I'll give it a go. I find his confusion about the setup be a town-tell and while at times his posts have been slightly fluffy and overdefensive I find those to be player-related tells for him rather then alignment ones. His posts that do have content in them read as genuine. Also the ''rolefishing' argument against him is horse-shit. Votes can go to

much

better places then this guy.

Feysal - Weak Town Read:

I find some of his reasoning behind his case on MoI to come of as genuine suspicion and his pointing out of Cooldogs setup confusion being something that makes him town reads as a town-tell. That combined with Maguas "Secret reasons for Feysal being town" before dying makes me happy to set him aside in the town-reads section though he needs to start contributing a great deal more.

Empking - Weak Town Read

This is partially gut based which I try to avoid to do normally. There's a few posts of his that come across as town, in particular his mention of a page 'creating a scum read on zdenek that wasn't there before'. I dislike his reasoning for his Cooldog FoS though and want it better explained.

Haze - Weak Town Read

I had him as a weak scum read in my notes but going through his ISO I can't work out why, all of his posts make a decent deal of sense and his responses to MoI read as genuine. His posting needs to pick up though and he needs to start posting more reads.

Spoiler: Undecided and Null Reads

Nachomamma8 - Undecided

Trekker always plays the troll-ish charade, his rage towards MoI is something that he does in every game and isn't a town-tell at all, most of his ISO is null however I do find his 'i forgot my thing and no powers' as a minor town-tell. Dislike Nachos #1931 massively though and want two questions answered before I state my read on him;

1) Why is Lemons interactions with Fox a strong town-tell for him?

2) What's your strong town read on Briz based around?

Greenknight - Undecided

His posts on the whole seem to be very logical and easy to follow, there's a few things that I do want clarified though;

1) In Post 928 you say that Zdenek is playing differently to your scum meta on him and that you think he might be scum changing his playstyle to defy meta but you also state that MoS is scum that's trying to mimmic his town playstyle. Mind telling me why you think either of these things are more likely then just the obvious "Zdenek is playing differently to when he was scum and thus is town" and the "MoS is playing to his town meta thus is probably town" thought process?

2) In Post 1069 you get a response from Feysal saying that this looks like Zdeneks town playstyle and that his playstyle is relatively different, I understand that you claim that you've 'rustled his feathers out of his normal playstyle' but why is it you vote him at this point when someone tells you that he's probably town?

PeregrineV - Undecided

His lack of contribution is terrible and most of what he has posted is complete fluff. There's a few of his reads I want explained, in particular;

1) Explain the town read on Briz

2) Explain the town read on Empking.

Lord Mhork - Undecided

I had a reasonably strong scum read on him earlier but his recent-ish posting (Since he started attacking Pine) are reading a lot more genuine. Probably going to need to do a more in-depth read through of his ISO before I'm sure either way.

In the meantime can you provide a list of reads on more players in the playerlist then just Pine please Lord?

Moneybags - Null

I remember having a fairly strong scum read on his hydra when reading through the cache file and most of Moneybags posts continue to read as fluff and him attempting to coast through the game, the only thing that gives me pause about him is his unprompted claim. Although I can see some scum motive to claiming a VT there (Avoid getting NKed by opposing scum team) the chances of him being a NK target would be slim and the manner in which he did it reads as genuine.

Junpei - Null

I'm torn when it comes to Kondi, I found his "no partners for norman" "votes: norman" as incredibly scummy but there's also a bunch of comments he said that I read as weak town-tells. Don't like the amount of complaining in all of Junpeis posts and he needs to start putting forward a lot more reads but otherwise null.

Spoiler: Scum Reads

Brizingre1 - Strong Scum Read

Briz's vote on Kondi while asking Kondi a question to meta-read another player doesn't make sense at all. His jump vote on Norman is really scummy as well. His Post 658 looks like like an attempt to state support for all the lurkier players in the game that had suspicion shown towards them already. What's interesting is that Post 886 is a compltely different list. His continual shifting of reads seems to be without any reason whatsoever and reads more as if his reads lists are manufactured.

Shadoweh - Medium Scum Read

Another one that's hard to explain. I've found a lot of her content to be questionable and her "Aww Mhork is town I can tell" to move on to vote him and push on him later is really off. Probably the best I can summarize the read is that she's avoiding being a 'lurker' but at the same time not providing any real content.

AurorusVox - Medium Scum Read

His calling himself an easy lynch and stating that anyone that calls him scum has a good shot of being scum while people calling him town are probably town is incredibly scummy. Him asking if the doc should reveal or not isn't a scum-tell and isn't rolefishing so people wanting to lynch him for that make little sense. What

is

a scum tell however is the massive amount of scum reads he's claiming to have. I can probably quote him calling at least 10 or so players scum with just a few town reads inside it which screams of leaving options open for later. From memory AV town hunts as town, he hasn't done that at all this game.

Mastin - Weak Scum Read

I had a weaker scum read on Maniacal too, his reads list were near the opposite of mine and his "Scum could be watching us" and his jump on MoS both read as scummy. Mastin hasn't improved the slot at all but just increased my frustration with it. His "I'm going to go back to logic, real logic" and then a piss-poor attempt at yelling out random names for a scum-tell are entirely contradictory though I don't think it's a scum-tell, just Mastin being Mastin. He needs to start explaining reads in depth or die, preferably die so I can keep my sanity.

Shadow1 - Weak Scum Read

I had a stronger scum read on him earlier, I think it was partially due to something in the cache but when re-reading his posts in the new thread there's little that I find incredibly scummy about him, the only thing that I intensly dislike is his case on Cooldog. Probably should read into more when I get the time.

Overall Reads

[Town]

Tiph - Tamm - Zde - Chess - Pine - BB - Cool ------ Feysal -- Haze - Emp

[

Money - Green - Junpei - Lord - Nacho - Pere

]

- Shadow1 - Mast ------- AV - ShadowEH --- Briz --

[Scum]

Shadowehs lynch is marginally better than AV's and there's no support for a Briz or LB lynch right now, so;

Unvote AV, Vote: Shadoweh

[Regfan]

@ Briz -

1. I understand reads change over time however the massive amount of scum reads you've claimed to have don't read as genuine, it seems more like an attempt to keep yourself open to vote almost anyone by rotating them on and of your list. Stating you're willing to vote any "Lurker" involves stating intention to vote almost half the playerlist alone. Also while we're at it some things you might want to explain why Mhork and Moneybags appears on the second list but not the first.

2. If you were confident in Kondi being mafia then his response towards your meta question of another player directed towards him isn't going to give you anything as you won't trust the answer anyway meaning it's a useless question.

3. Your timing of the vote was just after he had his "Lynch me lynch me" spew which while is anti-town isn't a scum-tell so your vote on him with 'sure' as the reasoning looks like an attempt to get on the wagon easily without having to come up with strong reasoning behind

The more and more I read through LB's ISO the more I think Faraday is scum, his play makes a lot more sense as scum worried that if he says too much he'll make himself a night kill target. I don't think he'd be this cautious as town. I realize that few people are going to want to lynch him anytime soon but if I die I'd rather people seriously consider him as scum. With that said join us on Shadoweh, the lynch is infinitely better than BBMolla plus voters on her get free cookies.

[Regfan]

I disagree, doing less to try and avoid a NK isn't pro-town play at all. It's actually incredibly scummy.

Also I don't see how Zar replacing out is a town-tell at all, I found the whole thing rather null. Convince me otherwise?

[Regfan]

@ Briz

- A response to 1) would be nice. As for 2) what you asked Kondi was quite subjective therefore it'd be hard to tell if he was lying or not. Regards to 3) I find policy lynching scummy as it allows scum to easily jump on wagons and claim "I'm PLing" which makes them able to blend in decently without PL votes and compared to the other votes yours was more awkwardly placed + I know that MoI PLs as both town and scum whereas I have no idea on your meta on that front at all.

@LB -

You're right, you're not getting lynched today or soon but I'd rather it be known that I think your slots scum if I die tonight which I have a decent chance of doing. Also while Moneys unprompted claim was super townie all of the rest of his and his hydras posts have been scummy so I'm fairly null on him overall.

[Regfan]

I think the bit about 'Everyone can decide how they want to deal with their non-opponents in whatever way' is clue enough to the fact that this is not true. Scum can just as easily cross kill with one shot as two,

that

seems largely unbalanced, and your reasoning is weak.

Again; I think chance of cross-killing is weak due to the fact scum can shoot obvtown players and avoid hitting the other faction 9 times out of 10 and one of the core difference between one night kill and two is the speed that players/town die in. With it being 2 games and only one lynch it's effectively a lynch per game every second day and if scum were to have a kill every night it's only 1/2 as fair as normal meaning I fail to see how this game can be balanced without some form of limitation on kills or a similar mechanic. I might not be right that it's a "If player lynched that faction can't kill" but there has to be some limitation.

Here's my problem Regfan - if you believe there's a killing limit,

you can't believe Pine is town

. Simple as that. There's no way that role is town if scum have the off chance of not being able to kill. Why, it would almost make sense for each scum team to have a scanner in the event that they can not kill, working in opposite of the kills (scum team that can't kill can scan type of deal). There's no way Pine has that role in a game where scum can be denied kills based on alignment lynches.

Your theory of "Scum team that can't kill can scan" actually makes a great deal of sense. With that said roles such as roleblocker, stalker ect. can easily weaken Pines role to the point where I believe it's possible for it to be a town role. I think a mass-claim a few days from now will completely clear it up.

@ LB -

I'll point out the specific posts about what I liked from Kondi tomorrow, now's drinking time!

@ AV -

I don't find Shadowehs first post to be a town-tell and I won't be changing to anyone else from her today other then Briz/Yourself.

[Regfan]

So hungover right now. Shadowehs claims breadcrumb checks out enough that it's worth moving the lynch today. Probably will vote AV but if other people are interested in a Briz speed deadline lynch right now that'd be awesome because I'm pretty convinced he's scum, if not I'll be moving my vote to AV in 10 or so hours. Feeling better about Green (Mediumish town read) and Pere (Weakish town read) right now alonside Shadow1 moving from weak scum to nulltown.

Unvote, Vote: Briz

@ AV -

I don't think the speed in which a player wants to get out of RVS is a strong town-tell ftr, I push for it early as scum. As for why Skenvoy is town just download the cache and read the 5 pages and you'll understand why I lean towards that slot being town.

@ Shadow -

Here, I'll lay it out simple for you and this'll be the last time I do so because this is becoming infuriating. I'm a setup reviewer and have been elsewhere as well for a few years so I tend to try and take a look at mechanics on sites that I'm aware of the meta towards and find flaws ect. Multi-scum is balanced by scum being forced to cross-kill in multiple situations which puts town back in the game. This game doesn't have that element. Normal games (3 scum 10 town) are balanced by towns ability to lynch every day so it's 1 town directed kill sometimes 2 due to vig for every 1 from mafia. This game doesn't have that. Instead this game has 1 lynch for what effectively is 2 different games a day. So there

has

to be some mechanic in play here, alternating night kills perhaps (Odd/Even), kill limitations revolving around the lynch or something along those lines. Also if you respond to this be forewarned I likely won't respond because this is becoming pointless.

[Regfan]

@ Junpei -

1) I think what I find most genuine about Moneys claim is the timing of it, it was pretty much mid-day-phase and from what I judge of him as a player I don't think he'd be the sort of person to randomly claim something without talking to his partners about it beforehand and I don't think daytalk is super-likely. Had he not claimed like that though I'd probably have him up near the top of my scum reads. Also there's much better/more people to pressure other than him right now.

2) I find the fact that BB has openely and repeatly stating disagreement with the alternate wagons a town-tell. Him not joining and pushing one of them increases the chances that he ends up being lynched whereas as scum he can easily attempt to push another lynch through other than his own with more success. I also find his resigned attitude a town-tell primarily due to meta, I've seen him act this way when suspected and run up as town multiple times.

3) I don't have the time for a full-organized case right now, especially since there seems to now be no real chance he gets lynched today. If I'm still alive tomorrow I'll do it first thing but it mostly revolves around his reads essentially being scum on most of the people in the game at different points with weak explanations behind them which screams of scum leaving doors open for future mslynches later. Also for what it's worth I very much see LB-Briz being scum together, Briz called Rigs/Zar (LB's predecessors) scum but never voted them, never really mentined LB other than to put them on their town list and LBs only mention of Briz is saying he's 'eh' and has some minor town tells with none pointed out nor no response to my strong scum read on him.

@AV -

What I liked specifiaclly about Skenvoys cache posts was his "I wouldn't give a fig about the other towns win con if we massclaimed" sort of attitude, I found the demeaner during it to be very genuine. I also liked after he did some mechanical discussion he moved on the very next post to discuss reads which I also mostly agreed with. There's seriously a lot better lynches than BB town.

@LB -

1) I agree with Greenknights reaction to all of this being very town. As for Mastins vote on Pine I actually think what's more likely then it being distancing is that Mastin legitimately believes that Pine is alternate-scum-team player and thinks he can get some sort of town-cred by voting him.

2) I don't think the PRs are identical on Lawful/Chaotic, I think that'd be too breakable with a mass-claim so I don't think 2 protective roles on one side means the same for the other, with that said 2 protective-ish claims on one side seems a lot. I believe BB's claim though which leads towards Shadoweh being the fake one and Green is actually right about Shadoweh's comment being something that makes little sense to actually do as a doc since if Tammy was actually shot at then the scum-team would insta-know that Shadoweh is doc. It actually makes a great deal more sense as a pre-planned fake breadcrumb from scum.

Unvote: Briz, Vote: Shadoweh

Overall Reads

[Town]

Tiph - Tamm - Zde - Chess - Pine - BB - Green - Cool ---- Feysal - Haze - Lord - Emp - Pere - Shadow1

[

Money - Junpei - MoS - Nacho

]

-- Mast ---- AV --- LB - ShadowEH ---- Briz -

[Scum]

Pedit:

@Nacho -

I have some questions for you in one of my previous posts, answer them please?

[Regfan]

Faraday, I don't understand how your scum read on Nacho is strong enough to be willing to blitz lynch him while claiming to have a gut town read on his predecessor.

Unofficial VC:

Shadoweh (9) - Zdenek, Lost Butterfly, brizingre1, Chesskid, Greenknight, Regfan, Tammy, AurorusVox, Nachomamma8
BBmolla (8) - Mastermind of Sin, Empking, Pine, CooLDoG, Shadoweh, PeregrineV, Moneybags, TiphaineDeath
Pine (2) - mastin2, Lord Mhork
CooLDoG (1) - Shadow1psc
AurorusVox (1) - BBmolla
Mastermind of Sin (1) - Junpei

Not Voting (1) - Haze

[Regfan]

Nacho while you're here and wanting to kill time ISO Briz and explain that 'almost certainly town' read for me because pretty damn positive he's scum.

[Regfan]

I messed the last VC up, forgot to add Feysal to BB.

Amended VC:

Shadoweh (10) - Zdenek, Lost Butterfly, brizingre1, Chesskid, Greenknight, Regfan, Tammy, AurorusVox, Nachomamma8, TiphaineDeath
BBmolla (8) - Mastermind of Sin, Empking, Pine, CooLDoG, Shadoweh, PeregrineV, Moneybags, Feysal
Pine (2) - mastin2, Lord Mhork
CooLDoG (1) - Shadow1psc
AurorusVox (1) - BBmolla
Mastermind of Sin (1) - Junpei

Not Voting (1) - Haze

[Regfan]

Tiphanie/Tammy/Zdenek/Chessskid/Greenknight/Pine/Cooldog/BBMolla are town.

Feysal/Haze/Lord/Empking/Nacho/Shadow1/Pere are weaker town reads, much weaker.

MoS/Junpei/Moneybags I don't lean either way on.

Briz/LB/AV/Mastin are probably scum. Moreso LB/Briz together then the other two.

Night all!

[Regfan]

I'll have all my other thoughts up after lunch but first, I want an explanation for the following from Mastin;

TOWN:
(Snip)

BBMolla

I did it, I did it! I got one scumteam!

Pine, Cooldog, and LynchMePls/ooba are Lawful Evil

.

The Chaotic Evil Scumteam is Tammy, Lost Butterfly, and Mastermind of Sin

.

But

BBMolla replaced Skenvoy, who if memory serves was as good as confirmed town

in the original thread. AV's posts have had multiple towntells in them, and have overall shown a town mindset, bringing up multiple good points and in general being a fairly logical player, with solid reads.

Add to that the players suspicious of both of them and it makes them as good as confirmed town. I have, what? Four? Five? Something like that of my suspects on one of the two wagons. And I'm fairly certain all six have expressed suspicion on AT LEAST one of the two at some point in the game. Even if I were wrong on one, two, heck, even three or four of my six scumreads (which I don't think I am), the fact that so many players on the two of them are NOT among my stronger townreads is evidence by ITSELF that the wagons are bad.


Plus, POE. I've got both scumteams, therefore, all players not listed as being one of the six is therefore town.

tl;dr?

They have many posts containing towntells, solid reasoning, show a town mindset, bring up multiple good points fairly logically and have good suspects.

Their wagon has most of my scumspects, along with many null or weaker townreads, making both stink of being scumdriven. Add in POE, and I have every reason to believe neither wagon's on scum.

VOTE: BBMolla.

[Regfan]

For the record scum roleblocker AND town roleblocker both being in a game isn't that uncommon at all.

@ Faraday -

Can you explain the Nacho/AV scum read to me because my scum read on AV is growing much much weaker and I have a weakish town read on Nacho despite his BB-vote and change when the wagon shifted. I can see your Pere scum read now, his vote yesterday and his "Lets go hunt Shadowehs partners" with no follow up on that read as scummy. Also I don't have a scum read on Junpei though I can see why you might FoS him.

Oh also what do you make of Feysals final post and vote yesterday because it's bugging me a lot right now.

@ MoS -

I don't think BB is the roleblocker that blocked Pine, if he were I doubt he'd say "Pine wasn't the person I blocked today" instantly outright given that there's a chance he'd be tracked to Pine and/or Pine was watched catching him visiting. I also think he's town and I recommend you go and read my thoughts on him yesterday and state what you disagree with exactly.

@ Mastin

- I actually can understand

some

of your reasons for your 180 flip on BB however there's a few things I want help understanding;
1) Can you link me to a game where you've changed your reads due to not dying N1/N2 as town because the "I'm wrong since I didn't die" is bullshit.
2) If Tammy isn't mafia and you think BB is now, what are your overall changed reads?
3) Why not elaborate on your change of thoughts in your vote post?

@ Briz -

ScumKondi would have the benefit of re-directing your suspicion. For instance if he said that this isn't how Norman played as town you'd be more inclined to FoS Norman which is good for Kondi-Scum if Norman is town which is why asking him a question as subjective as that makes no sense if you suspect Kondi. Also I've stated how your vote was awkardly placed, it was done after he was yelling "LYNCH ME" which was a pretty big town-tell for one and for two it means that you can just say 'he told me to!' if questioned about it. Full case on Briz coming up in a few hours. For now though;

Vote: Briz

Overall Reads

[Town]

Tammy - Tiph - Zdenek - Chesskid - Cooldog - BBmolla --- Pine -- Haze - Money -- Empking - MoS - Shadow1 -- Nacho

[

Junpei

]

- Feysal - LB - AVox ---- Pere --- Mastin ----- Briz -

[Scum]

[Regfan]

Pine's night actions continue to be very fucking stupid. They're starting to worry me. What do you think of them, Regfan? The CHESSKID investigation is hella dumb. I remember him faking retarded night actions in AFFC, too, as scum.

Yeah, his roleblock claim again and target choice have made me second guess my town-read on him and was why I moved him down the scale in my last post. I'm waiting for him to make a proper post with reads and thoughts + explanation behind his investigation choice before I decide further though.

Can we please have a Mina post sometime today please, I'd like to hear her opinions rather than your recount of them.

How many times do I need to say it - Norman was a policy lynch, scum/town had nothing to do with it, he was playing like a moron and annoying the hell out of most people. Regarding the Kondi thing, you have a fair point but I still don't see it as a particular scum tell - I was interested in kondi's opinion on Norman - you seem to be blowing this way out of proportion.

We're going in circles here. You're stating it was purely a policy lynch vote whereas I'm reading it more-so as opportunistic scum jumping on a lynch with the easy excuse of "I wanted to PL". And yes, the point about Kondi has been talked about more than it deserves, it's only a minor scum-tell in comparison to the sheer amount of scum reads/suspects you've claimed to have all game and the disingenuiness of your scumhunting.

Radical thought here: we should focus on eliminating one group first (i.e. go after Shadoweh's buddies) because if both towns are alive in the long-term, our enemy faction comprise a lower% and we have a lower statistical chance of lynching them.

This doesn't work because the game isn't based on Total Scum Alive vs Total Town Alive but rather Lawful evil alive vs Chaotic good and Chaotic Evil vs Lawful good.

This doesn't make any sense, Regfan. BB already claimed yesterday that he had not blocked Pine, and he also claimed that he thought Pine was town. There is NO way that town-BB would block Pine under these circumstances, so if he got tracked last night to Pine he's already fucked. Therefore there is no reason for him to wait and see if he's caught before claiming another target today, because blocking Pine is an indefensible position

anyway

.

You're actually right on this front. Though I still think you're wrong about BBMolla, other then him though who are your scum reads?

@ Pere

- You stated that you were going to re-read and hunt for Shadowehs partners, where's the follow-up on that? Also you state that you still think my slots mafia, have you read any of my posts at all or are you basing your read solely on Jackal?

@ Feysal

- So is your reasoning for voting BBMolla is purely related to his claim and if so what specifically about it makes you think he's mafia.

@ Nacho

- I'm waiting on your Briz-town explanation still...

[Regfan]

Running late for work so I'll be brief.

1. Shadows 180 on Pine is interesting though the softclaim sort of makes sense with it but at the same time I can see it coming from him as scum as well.
2. Pretty sure Cooldog is town and the scum-reads on him need to die.
3. My town read on Moneybags is growing stronger despite his FoS on Cooldog.
4. Zdenek is town without a doubt.

[Regfan]

hey regfan why do you have a town read on nacho? or a better read. i don't get it. has he even posted anything of value ever?

It's a super weak read based on meta. I've seen him act like this as town especially as replacing in town a few times whereas his scum play is different.

I think that BBmolla's claim so far (especially today in particular) have been nothing but attempts to draw out town power roles. He's been baiting someone to contradict his claim so his team can kill them. He almost died yesterday and he's the lead wagon out of the gate today, so it feels like he's not playing for the long haul.

I see

nothing

in his play yesterday that looks anything like attempting to draw out a power role, his claim was very much last day done and not really a claim that's likely to be counter claimed. I can see his "My action is confirmable by the person who I RB'ed if they were RB'ed" as being rolefishing to some degree but at the same time that makes sense coming from him as town as well. You state that we should 'put ourselves in Pine position', I suggest you do the same regarding his claim.

It is about his claim, yes, more specifically about him not using his ability for not wanting to mess anything up. That was terrible yesterday, and it is worse today after his talk of being confirmed by the player he blocked.

I admit that his attitude toward his counterwagons was indifferent and townish, but the weirdness of the claim outweighs that for me.

As stated above I don't find his confirmation-related talk today to be a scum-tell. Also I don't agree with his decision to no-roleblock N1 but I can somewhat follow the logic behind it - that being that the risks may involve roleblocking a stronger town power role ect.

More people should take a leaf out of Tiphs book and vote Briz.

[Regfan]

I'm being worked all weekend so this game will have to wait until Mondayish.

[Regfan]

Work of tomorrow, will get to this game then. I skimmed Tiphs case on Briz, it's good but I'll add a few more things to it then. People really need to move over to him though.

Also Pine needs to post a fuckload more in here, especially an explanation for his investigation choice.

[Regfan]

I strongly disagree. A town PR wouldn't try to get someone to confirm him. He'd merely claim his target and leave it be, because he'd KNOW that he roleblocked the person. BBmolla felt more like he was not sure whether or not AV would counter his claim (because he didn't actually block him!).

See, this is where I disagree. As a roleblocker who has people pushing for your lynch the ultimate aim is to confirm your ability and usage of it as town and as scum as well, this means that him stating that AV can possibly 'confirm' him is a null tell and really nothing more than that and the amount of weight people have been putting behind the "He wanted to be confirmed, rolefishing!" thing is astounding and makes me think there's likely scum on the wagon.

I'd like Briz to hang as well, TD, but I think it's rather obvious that BB is the priority at the moment.

Okay. Why is BB mafia and why is he a priority, you didn't vote him yesterday so you can't say 'scummy claim!'. And if Briz needs to hang, vote her.

@Pine -

Shadows soft-claim of a town-result on you right now is one of the few things holding me back from considering to push on you. If you're town read the fucking thread, state some reads and don't just say "This game is bad" or "I want to use ability tonight!" because neither of them give us anything to work with.

@Zdenek -

Tammys playstyle drives a lot of people crazy, including myself. She's not scum though and you need to lay of her and focus elsewhere more.

@MoS -

Tiph is town, I'd bet near anything on it.

@Fararapist -

ETA on the Mina post? Also join me on Briz, please.

[Regfan]

No ETA on a Mina post! Possibly never? I don't know.

What did you do with her.

Hassle her to post for me please!

Also my current reads;

[Town]

Tammy - Tiph - Zdenek - Chesskid - Cooldog - BBmolla - Money - Pine - MoS ------ Empking -- Shadow1 -- Nacho [Junpei - Haze - AVox]- Feysal - LB ----- Pere --- Mastin ----- Briz -

[Scum]

[Regfan]

Sigh, Mastins posts make me want to punch something. Now I remember why I tried to quit this site.

[Regfan]

I've already hassled. I don't even think she's read the game fully. Hopefully once this Team Mafia stuff calms down she'll be able to do it but I won't hold my breath <_< this feels like test of faith.

Can you get her to post her thoughts/reads on Briz/Mastin/Haze/Feysal specifically at least?

Actually, I want everyone to ISO Briz and let me know why they aren't voting him because none of his scumhunting is genuine at all.

[Regfan]

Still think Briz needs to be lynched. Still think BB lynch is shit. Still think LB might be scum and will until Mina posts and convinces me otherwise.

Also feel better about AV, think he's town at the moment. Also won't be backing a Nacho lynch, he's still nulltown.

Oh and Pine, I'm still waiting for a full list of reads from you.

[Regfan]

AV, thing is unless I've misunderstood something Pine can only really be scum if Shadow1 is also scum meaning that Pines never the optimal lynch at all.

[Regfan]

His explanation on his 180 flip on Pine being scum yesterday to him being town today was a soft-claim of a town result on Pine.

[Regfan]

More Nacho votes would be cool.

I continue to not agree with the strength of your scum read on him, or any scum read on him at all.

Also I've long given up on convincing Pine on how to use his role, it's not a worthwhile use of time anymore and his stubbornness in the manner is actually reading as a slightish town-tell. Instead of people focusing on it they should be focusing on stating their reads on other players than BB.

[Regfan]

Yeah, I didn't either. He doesn't seem to be attempting to scumhunt at all.

Haze needs to come and explain his last post too.

[Regfan]

My scum read on Mastin only fluctuates in regards to it's strength. I'm not sure how much of it is just due to pure hated towards him and his logical issues. I don't see the Shadow1 obvtown read you have though I feel a

lot

better about him now then I did when I replaced in.

Should we be expecting to see anything from Empking at all today/in the next few days?

[Regfan]

My experience with Empking is that he thinks he is being very strong and secretive but never really contributes. So I guess the next few days is wrapped in the confines of "this game". Why do you ask this question?

Mostly because he's a weaker read that I want to attempt to deal with soon. Also because I have very limited actual game experience with him and one of the games that I remember with him he actually spammed/posted a fuckload as town which is the opposite of this.

[Regfan]

This argument is stupid.

Pines role does have relevance in the fact that if scum lie about their affiliation which they should be doing to prevent themselves from getting fucked late game then he has the ability to catch them. Not just that but he also turns into a complete full-cop when one faction leaves the game. The fact that he's not using his role in the way that others are telling him is the best use of it doesn't make him scum nor does it make his role useless, it just means that he's being stubborn.

Now for the love of god can people focus and state read elsewhere.

[Regfan]

Someone make a logical claim as to why anyone would lie about their alignment

.

Lets say Faraday is a scum bag. More specifically he's a scumbag that's aligned with the Lawful Evil. He knows that Lawful Good are dying like flies and knows that if he claims Lawful Good and the Chaotic Evil win and all leave the game alongside with the Lawful Good he'll become confirmed mafia for not having left the game. This means that Faraday the scumbag has to claim Chaotic Good to avoid this situation which means he has to lie. Pine can catch this lie.

[Regfan]

I think what you're not understanding Shadow is that this game is Lawful Good vs Chaotic Evil and Chaotic Good vs Lawful Evil.

Not Chaotic vs Chaotic and Lawful vs Lawful.

[Regfan]

Pine, those reads..?

[Regfan]

However... there is one thing which I think we forget

: We don't know scums

' powers or

win con

. Those two things are very important in determining how useful Pines' role is to town.

Yes we do, I quoted it earlier and you even went as far to comment on it. Also how is Briz's ISO going?

[Regfan]

Empking, why is Cooldog scum and what are your other reads?

I don't think Nacho town would be this big of a disgrace. We should lynch him.

I've seen him play this poorly as town before. Also you're right on Shadow, if he's scum he's likely to be cross-killed so no reason wasting time on him.

Junpeis post is a great summarization of why Briz (Now oversoul) is scum.

[Regfan]

Feysal, you're really doing the minimal to scrape by right now. You need to be stating reads on a great deal more of the playerlist. You're no longer V/LA, no excuses.

Please do not wagon or lynch me until I've read everything. I'm on page 15. And if you guys are just going to lynch me tell me now so I don't have to waste time or effort.

I'm pretty sure your slot is scum and no, I'm not going to unvote you, there's still more then enough time for you to read through at least a decent chunk of the game and provide a defence alongside with state reads.

I like Pine less and less. I initially read him as town but his continual lack of fucking anything + claimed rule usage is almost too terrible for me to ignore. Eh.

1) Why ask Junpei why he's not pushing you today but not ask me? I also stated a strong-ish scum-read on you.
2) If you're near certain that Shadow is town, or as you say 'obvtown' then how can you be suspecting + considering voting Pine at all?

[Regfan]

Specifically what do you mean by defence? Defence of Briz's actions?

Moreso just reasons on why we shouldn't lynch you other than "I'm a replacement!".

Junpei. I will have my chance to say my piece now that I have committed to reading this game. The fact that you don't want me to say something is fucking scummy as balls because you fear the chance that town won't lynch me and your precious mislynch slips through your fingers like sand.

He's not trying to shut you up at all, you have every chance to read and talk and post.

[Regfan]

Regfan: What's your read on Peregrine over the last 10 pages or so?

Very conflicted. I found this and this very scummy but had a gutish town read on this post which is mostly because I like how he calls Nacho/BB bad lynches.

Overall though he's moved slightly more towards null on my reads.

Oversoul, I understand your want to save yourself RL time but the fact of the matter is that a lynch on you isn't locked in at all; meaning there's every chance you don't get lynched today so any time you spend towards the game wouldn't be 'wasted'.

Also Junpei is not stating that you should be lynched before you get a chance to post your thoughts or reads at all. He's telling people that they shouldn't not vote you just because you replaced in. Sure you might not be saying "I'm a replacement don't lynch me!" yourself but why it's being pointed out so strongly is because 2-3 players have stated a scum read on you but refusal to vote you because they don't like lynching replacements.

[Regfan]

Oversoul, I don't see how Tammy was 'useless' at all. Also you didn't explain the Haze/Pere town reads. Oh and from your prior post it seems like you don't intend to read the rest of the thread at all, nor re-look at BB who is the leading wagon or even catch up on everything your 'leading suspect' has done before placing a vote.

I'm more than happy for an Oversoul lynch to go through still.

[Regfan]

He was lurking for a large part of Day 1 because of VLA. He returned and started being active which I credited to him being town. In telling you Haze lurks as scum. It is a pretty good meta tell.

He had 12ish posts total only at that point, how is that not lurking?

That was mainly at Reg who keeps misrepresentating what I'm saying. Ironically I think his predecessor is on my scum list.

1) What have I misrepresented you on?
2) Who do you think my predecessor is? (Don't go check, just answer instantly)

[Regfan]

Isn't it GNR slot? Zar? I don't remember.

You keep taking things out of context like me "not reading" the next 70 pages when I said my reads probably wouldn't change.

I just said, Reg, that Haze was VLA for the greater part of Day 1 and when he returned he was active.

1) GNR slot is Faraday, not me. I replaced Jackal
2) Haze was V/LA for 3 RL days. Between game start and page 50 was 15 RL days. So in 12 days he made 12 posts only, most prod-dodges effectively.
3) I said that your post 'seems like' that you had no intention to read any further, which is true, wanting to place a vote means you're content with your effort.

[Regfan]

With only 4 votes on him currently and a lot more needed for a lynch I don't see how he'd possibly think he could be quick-lynched overnight to the point of begging to have a chance to claim. The soft-claim and reaction reeks of scum.

[Regfan]

Well I originally didn't want to vote him because he was a replacement who hadn't caught up. It wouldn't be right to do it, no.Now I'm not overly keen on voting him because he seems kinda townie, even though he finds me scum for really weird reasons. He keeps reiterating that we don't claim Law or Chaos, which I would associate with town rather than scum. At any rate, I want to evaluate him for more than a day.

His "Don't claim law/chaos" reads moreso as an attempt to force-town-tell rather than anything else, especially with the amount he's repeating it.

2) Even if point #1 was wrong (hint: it's not), you're claiming that BBmolla has ALWAYS been lurking...which would be even more reason to lynch him. So why aren't you voting BBmolla again?

Lurking isn't that strong a scum-tell for BBMolla. And if Lurking was a scum-tell strong enough to lynch based of why didn't you want to lynch Briz (Who was lurking) or Empking, Haze, Feysal, Nacho and Moneybags who essentially are as well.

This BB lynch is so very wrong, look who is on the lynch and you'll see that. In case you're not sure what I'm talking about;

- Mastin who jumped from BBtown to BBscum and isn't scumhunting at all. In fact he's blatantly avoiding commenting on other things.
- Haze who jumped from not wanting to lynch BB yesterday to voting him today saying he's the obvious lynch with no reason.
- Feysal who hasn't done nearly any scumhunting and is just standing back waiting for this lynch to go through.
- Nacho who hasn't caught up with the game and is 'sheeping mastin' with his vote.

[Regfan]

Kondi is Junpei, not Nacho.

[Regfan]

Pretty positive Faraday is scum in this game now.

Also Feysals whole post is bullshit. You don't need to lynch one particular person to be able to scumhunt on everyone else.

[Regfan]

that just makes you stupid

Yes because "Shadow is obvtown from softclaim" and "Pine might be scum" is a natural town thought process and mixing up Nachos predecessor when Feysal mentioned who it was 5 or so posts above yours also is a town-tell, right?

[Regfan]

You do realize I'm not going to eat that bullshit.

[Regfan]

Regfan - Do you have experience with Oversoul? If you do, then maybe I can see it. But to me he seems like a hyper player that isn't very experienced, which I tend to associate with town.

I have plenty of experience with him. He's not a 'newbie' at all, I'd probably guess he's played 40+ games.

Why then are you not willing to entertain the idea that ONE OF THESE reversed reads is the result of a cop investigation?

Someones read changing from Scum->Town makes sense due to a cop investigation. That being that you investigate your scum read and find out its wrong. Whereas someone changing from Town->Scum makes little sense because it would mean checking someone you think is town. No one investigates their town reads. As for this being 'multiball', it's a valid point except I think the severe amount of shittyvotes on that wagon mean that there's probably some of both scum teams on there.

I like Nacho last few posts. Though his reasoning behind Mastin/Faraday being town is weak. I think there's a big chance of both of BB/Nacho being town.

[Regfan]

Faraday, if you're not going to swing to Oversoul who would you be willing/do you think is possible to lynch instead?

[Regfan]

why did you like my last couple of posts? also, faraday and mastin are my stronger reads. my other reads are either not really touched on or you have expressed disagreement with them.

I mostly liked the demeanor and attitude in your posts, reminds me very much of a few past town games I've played with you. Also I think as scum you'd be more than willing to come in here and fake a catch up reads post or whatnot, your avoidance in doing so just seems like you being bad as town and thinking mastins reads hold any weight. Your read on Oversoul specifically (not the person he replaced), Feysal and Haze would be awesome though.

@ regfork try junpei and feysal as my next level of suspicions. I'd do oversoul over bbmolla too. After that it gets murky - probably the people I have little read on? I've cooled on mastin + Av hate. Particularly Av who looks much better lately.

I won't do Junpei. I can do Feysal, Haze, Oversoul and Mastin though. I see AV's improvement (I think he's town) but why have you cooled on the Mastin hate?

[Regfan]

Nacho, why is Feysal town?

[Regfan]

I don't think Pere would put himself in a 1 v 1 like this as scum, so he's probably town. Also the person that gifted Pere doesn't need to claim it, there's no reason for them to do so. It'd just lead towards them being NKed. The amount of town power claims we have either fully claimed or softed is unbelievable though.

Unvote, Vote: Cooldog

[Regfan]

I actually found the setup tilting towards the scum due to 2 scum-related kills to every town 1 and no incentive for scum to cross-kill.

I don't think the town power roles were as strong as people are making them out to be either and I think the main reason that both towns won so easily at the end of the day was due to poor night play by the scum and bad claiming. Mhork should never have been a night-kill, neither should have MoS and scum (Can blame each other all you want) should have shot Pine so they don't have to worry about lying/getting caught lying about their alignment later. Also Shadoweh/BB were eventually undone by their claims and were run up due to being scummy.

Also I think Feysal/Pere at the end of the day played their PRs very well, they managed to appear scummy enough to avoid ever being night-killed but not scummy enough that they were ever a leading lynch candidate. It's the perfect way to play the roles they were given. Oversoul on the other hand...

[Regfan]

Can we get some links to the scum QTs please?