Good vs Evil, Law vs Chaos Reboot - Game Over, Good wins

[Junpei]

21 hours, 2 wagons at near equal length, lets take a quick look....

Hm, Tammy changed her vote in to a futile wagon of 1 which gave Zdnenek full control of the lead again since she was voting Foxface. So I'm going to guess either she's emotionally tunneling or pretending to emotionally tunnel, since no one who writes a wall like 1205 is a VI.

Well then, off to Tammy's ISO to see what kind of precedent there is for this.. Oh look... the site isn't loading anything past post 50 in her ISO, that's fantastic. I guess I'm going to have to just read back and see that way... well I guess Tammy's past is tunneling on Zdnenek and bursting on Zar for suspecting her for faulty reasons.

Okay, so lets see if I want foxface or Zdnenek lynched before I decide on whether to try to get Tammy to change her vote back or not.

Foxface...
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p3923081
after saying doesn't throw votes around willy nilly?

trying to please early on not good

wow those reads.. and really bad play overall

self voting

is very ready to kneel over and die and doesn't seem to want to do any work for this game.

Foxface seems like the lynch to me, what's the debate about?

So if someone could hook me up with a link to a Zdnenek case that'd be awesome. If it's the VT claim I am guessing he made from one of these posts I'm skimming in his ISO that has him leading for death, then let me know so I can vote foxface.

20ish hours, I'd like to do a few other things before the night comes in case mafia is comfortable with the current gamestate thus decides to kill me.

Tammy: Zar isn't dying, you're tunneling Zar and that's okay, but you need to vote Foxface because foxface is just going to become Toogeloo from Cyclic Experiment II and be a cop-out for scum all game long if he's town, and if he's scum then obviously he needs to die. He's done enough scummy things to warrant his death anyway.

[Junpei]

Why is Zdenenk scum?

vote foxface

I don't see why this wouldn't be the lynch; Tammy better not lurk till deadline.

[Junpei]

If Zdenenek is scum, Tammy is more likely scum. Unfortunately we won't be lynching Zdenenek so we won't know this, but the good news is that fortunately we'll be lynching foxface who has a good chance to be scum. Also I think Tammy is town, so there's that.

Mastin: Where are those QT posts? I think that there are 6 scum by the way, 3 for each team.

CoolDoG reads as scum, seems to be trying to look busy, I can't get the feeling he really believes what he's typing.

[Junpei]

Might as well just let the clock run, in case someone wants to post.

Shadow1psc, is there anything you want me to analyze at night in particular (some event, for instance)?

[Junpei]

Was that hammer?

I have L-1.

[Junpei]

Mastin, why haven't you posted the QT posts you talked about so long ago?

vote CooLDoG

Haven't read most of the game mainly because I forgot to, partially because [insert another excuse here]. Anyway, I'll do ISOs on people as it becomes necessary, but for now I'll scumhunt as normal.

[Junpei]

I think the doc should keep quiet. MoI has a reputation so it's not inconceivable to think that both scum factions killed him. Unless we have a way of determining if this is not what happened, the doctor outing themselves would be useless.

[Junpei]

Mastermind of Sin, don't try to softly undermine the CoolDoG lynch please. If you have a stance to take take it, don't hide behind MoI's words.

[Junpei]

vote AurorusVox

This beast needs to be put down.

[Junpei]

The difference being: townies will actually see the value in the exercise.

I only answered because I thought you were drunk and didn't want you doing or saying something stupid. There's no real value in the exercise, holding someone to that type of mafia theory is ridiculous as it is pointless.

[Junpei]

1) Tammy is in the right, MoS is in the wrong; MoS has completely failed to convince me that tammy is scum and is IIoA just screams faking content.

2) Mastin is as useful as FourseenCircumstance

3) Pine thinks Mastins' articles are without flaws when in fact they often have quite a few flaws, and Pine thinks he knows best when really he is just going off of Mastins' flawed theory.

4) MoI is easy to catch as scum, once you know what to look for it is not difficult like you say it is. You must suck then?

5) Pine nice try at alignment fishing with your "only alignment X would care about me being bard and react this way T!"; I'm glad someone stopped that.

6) AurorousVox is still scum and Pines' investigation is mostly useless and could easily be a scum role.

[Junpei]

MoS is suffering from hindsight bias. You're wasting time; I've read walls of Mastermind of Sin abusing hindsight and Tammy swiftly smacking it down.

[Junpei]

It is when you are only NOW attacking people (tammy) for being on the lynch. Also were you a major pillar in campaigning for a Zedenek lynch and NOT a Foxface lynch? You're using hindsight to validate attacks on Tammy and indirectly others, when before the flip you weren't hounding people as much because you didn't have a flip to validate your suspicion.

[Junpei]

.I don't think Pine-scum would have gone to such lengths to make up a fake RB claim

Uh claiming RB isn't a difficult connection at all... Also in this post you go from "he wouldn't claim RB'd because a tracker could track him to MoI so he'd just claim a result on MoI" to "the scumteam wouldn't let Pine make the kill on MoI".

[Junpei]

The whole idea of spelling out pet theories like that which you aren't willing to push a lynch on at the time is ridiculous, it's mudslinging at its finest. Also Pine may be scum who thought he was under more pressure than he actually was, I'll look into his ISO later.

[Junpei]

Oh, that's just as erroneous. What's the difference between targeting the dead AND getting roleblocked and just getting roleblocked on someone else? Well, Pine had to have a theory to give us for why he picked his target, and MoI apparantly fit his bill in the reads department. Furthermore, Pine delaying announcing who he got the result on until a decent time into the day; that could be read as him making sure there was no watcher on MoI. Roleblock is just so he doesn't have to fake the formatting of the result.

That's a lot more likely than your "scum wouldn't RB and target dead claim LOL too obvious... haha".

[Junpei]

1) You just told Tammy that just because you can't prove your claim doesn't mean that she is exempt from having to prove your claim false. The evidence you have presented is laughable, Mastermind of Sin.

2) Nice job completely missing the crux of my post and instead deciding to deflect my whole point with a clarification of one line which clearly means to represent your argument in a caricature fashion. I almost want to lynch you just on your faulty arguments alone, Mastermind of Sin.

[Junpei]

Sigh, you've been out of the game for too long, Mastermind of Sin; that or you've degraded in intelligence this past year. You're using highly fallacious arguments, and now I'm going to ignore you for a while.

[Junpei]

Tammy ignore MoS who doesn't understand laws of well formed arguments.

By his logic, he must prove his claim that your claim that his claim is false, is in fact false, ad infinitinum.

[Junpei]

And yet you continued for two more pages.

vote Mastermind of Sin

You need to be put down.

[Junpei]

Junpei, are you voting Mastermind of Sin as a policy lynch or do you believe he is scum?

I think he's scum who's making things up on the fly, and in the process mudslinging and baselessly attacking Tammy in a logically inconsistent manner.

[Junpei]

Uh, Ad Hominem is different than verbal attacks. Ad hominem implies the absence of other premises and conclusions; it implies the sole premise being the arguer is himself and that the conclusion is not self evident. Not only that, but the premises and conclusions of those statements are valid and not a model of ad hominem.

After the game I can give you lessons if you want MoS,; but for now back to ignoring you.

[Junpei]

Wait -- Zar = House Lannister?

Also you guys replacing out is ridiculous; one of you try not to be insecure and stay, at least.

[Junpei]

Hello Faraday, what's your read on Mastermind of Sin, and your opinions on his interaction with Tammy and myself? They're on recent pages, if you don't know.

Are you planning to read the whole thread?

[Junpei]

Wow I hate this game. So many people, so many illogical arguments... Too bad I don't have time to deconstruct every faulty premise and presumed conclusion; and even if I did no one would listen.

I'll take requests as to what people want me to comment on because this game is turning into a marsh of egos.

[Junpei]

House Lannister is HL, clearly. Tiphaine, how much are you willing to commit to those X town = Y scum syllogisms?

[Junpei]

v/la 4/13-15

[Junpei]

hey guys, norman has been threatening me, I don't like this, even though I offered him his spot back quite nicely, do you know how I may report this to the site administrator?

LOL

Okay, this game. I just recently got back from V/LA and am checking in. Not ready to dig in though at this moment, just posting to laugh and let you guys know.

[Junpei]

Mhork that is NOT how you analyze someone's play and form a massive case. Wow that was awfully done. Sorry but... wow.

[Junpei]

>_>

It didn't start as a massive case now did it?

Also, you managed to read everything I posted in four minutes? Really?

No, one quick scan of it shows a massive quote wall with a tldr section which doesn't cover everything.

Just a heads up, I doubt you'll convince many people with a big ISO wall like that. You need to carefully construct cases with succinctness and conviction; I may as well do all the heavy lifting myself, because your case isn't doing what cases are supposed to do: summarize and isolate the problem.

[Junpei]

skenvoy totes matched my thought process for the first 5 pages so idk

Sigh... I don't understand how you don't realize why that means absolutely nothing, especially in this game.

[Junpei]

skenvoy totes matched my thought process for the first 5 pages so idk

Sigh... I don't understand how you don't realize why that means absolutely nothing, especially in this game.

Oh, sorry. I've never played multi scum before. Maybe you could explain the basics to me?

No matter what your specific alignment, there is a scum team who is looking for the same things you are, and especially early on when it's easiest for scum to fake thought processes in multiball.

As for my ISo being bad, I'm having trouble reading even the new posts in this game because you and others keep spamming the thread. You need to learn to post in more concise manners, Faraday, because chainposting really DOES hurt town.

Regardless of how I feel about how you're playing on a technical level I know I need to put more effort into this game but it's not a particularly easy thing to do.

[Junpei]

Man, I wish this game had the playerlist of Cyclic Experiment II; I would read 80 pages of that type of conversation for anyone, but instead I don't. Either way I will scumhunt; it was easier when I had to only investigate two people though (I picked the right choice, even if it seems to have been wrong).

On this page, Shadow's appeal to probability is bad but so is Tammys' interaction on her side of things.

pedit: *moan*...

[Junpei]

Too long, don't read. Used as an abstract for a long wall of text/post.

Or you could have googled it.

[Junpei]

I'd say thanks, but the unnecessary rudeness prevents me from it.

Huh? Wasn't intending any rudeness, I suppose I will apologize since I seem to have irked you.


I understand you've probably said something about this in the game but I can't find it, so I'll ask: How much do you value logic?

ugh. so terrible.

I think if I was scum I'd just nightkill myself to get away from you and junpei.

This post just inspired me to try harder in this game, that and Faraday's other "ass-in-mouth" posts on this page. Sorry to say but your laughable award and experience don't outweigh my analytical and cognitive skill set, get over yourself and learn how to post better.

This is pure OMGUS masquerading as reasoning.

Pine: did you really think he was OMGUSing your RVS vote?

Pines' premmature claim is either Pine getting emotional (plausible) or Pine pretending to be emotional (plausible as well), I have issues with Zdenek and Tammys' rebuttal on why they think he claimed early, but since I have issues with both sides, I prefer to just tell my viewpoint. Needless to say it is null.

AurorusVox (5) - Lost Butterfly, Jackal711, Feysal, BBmolla, Shadoweh

This is a terrible wagon. The only person on there I have any modicum of faith in right now is Feysal, and he admitted himself he's not paying enough attention today.

People who are unintelligent/scum-reads can't be on a wagon on scum? Rule 1: Accept your own fallibility
Rule 2: Discrediting the accuracy of the wagon by attacking the personas of the people riding it is fallacious. You can either attack the arguments against AurorusVox or accept his votes; but what you're doing is mudslinging.

[Junpei]

but to win in this game they don't care whether the other scum team lives or dies meaning all of their kills will be aimed towards people they're relatively certain is town.

No... no. What makes you say that? I don't recall ever being told what the scums' wincon was. In fact I specifically asked the mod for the scums' wincon since I couldn't find it, and nothing he said (which was basically, "no") implied anything of that sort.

Regfan, are you slipping up already? I'd like an explanation as to how you reached i) your first conclusion regarding consolation nokills, and ii) your second conclusion regarding the scums' win con. What I'm asking for is a thought process and how it came to mind. Thank you.

[Junpei]

He did the same as scum in Dram's bastard and we lynched him for it.

Then why would he do it again here?

[Junpei]

He did the same as scum in Dram's bastard and we lynched him for it.

Then why would he do it again here?

Humans are creatures of habit?

And sentient. Even of things they do.

[Junpei]

This post from Seacore in the cache file:

Oh, I didn't read that.. interesting. Well in that case Pines' claim seems difficult to come from scum just based on the technicality of the role he's claiming. He's not my play for today, I'm glad the wagon fell apart.

[Junpei]

What were you thinking?

He claimed Choatic Good. The fact that he's uncc'd Bard means if he's scum he's Choatic Evil.

If he's scum, then he has just painted a target on his back, because the scum team could be detected. Pines' scumteam would be aiming to shoot at whoever Pine marks as "Law", and the scumteam would be marked as Law. It basically increases the odds of a crosskill, and that's scary.

Essentially, if Pine is scum, then for however long he is alive, the odds of the Lawful Evil getting crosskilled increases. If Pine is town, then well we have a similar situation, except for that the punishment will be delayed, and there are several psychological changes to the game that could happen later on when Pine reveals investigations which are variable enough. Whether scum would be worried about this is debatable, though Pine is putting on a gamble if he's scum that the scumteam is willing to take the risk that he is town and even then live with the possible consequences of that.

[Junpei]

A definitive list of classes and their alignment restrictions.

I read this as "these roles must be in the game", but I suppose we should ask.

Mod, are all of the roles in "Post 2" of this thread in this game for certain?

[Junpei]

Regfan immediately investigating the workings of the setup is not suspicious.

Regfan: I would like to hear a new summarized case on Briz which takes into account his rebuttal please.

[Junpei]

Not sure why Moneybags doesn't get any pressure; his ISO is just noncommittal vote after noncommittal vote. Regfan you said that the genuineness of his VT claim offset all of Moneybags' scumminess; why did it read so genuine to you?

[Junpei]

BBmolla has done nothing but churn out a few terrible reads and filler like "why isn't anyone voting MoS [as I posted one reason and only one to do so]?" He's a fine person to kill.

Regfan: You have BBmolla as town, and I'd like to briefly challenge that. What about his "response" to his wagon is town? I personally found it to be very null.

Also, how can lurking and being a nonfactor be indicative of town meta and slightly, or to some degree less than 1 but greater than 0, indicative of scum meta? I don't understand what you're saying.

[Junpei]

Shadowehs' ability DOES go off her own alignment, doesn't it?

It requires HER alignment be the same as her target.

[Junpei]

My claim will probably just make your

penis harder

hammer swifter btw

Why would town BBmolla say this? I think that it is him cushioning his claim because he is nervous about it.

I'm more concerned about BB's claim tbh. I still think he's town but:
From a set-up POV if he's town we have 2 apparent roleblockers.The one who blocked Pine and BB. That's a little inelegant.
There's also him no actioning which i REALLY don't fucking get.
Also both him and Shadoweh are Lawful Good, apparently. That's 2 protective roles on that side of the town, would the other then have another 2. (I'm sort of tempted to massclaim tomorrow...but)

Issues with this post:

1) He assumes Pine is town and did not lie about being roleblocked but brings into question BB being a roleblocker based on Pine being town. I checked, and Faraday never takes a real stance on Pine; there is no precedent here.

2) His other reasons for not believing the claim are terrible: "FOUR PRs in a 26 player game!?!", "Why would BBmolla noaction other than for the reason he stated?"

[Junpei]

Vote BBmolla

For now.

[Junpei]

Why would town BBmolla say this? I think that it is him cushioning his claim because he is nervous about it.

Because it's a shitty claim. No actioning is actually fairly horrible if true, imo. It's the type of thing that I could conceviably see myself hammer if I had little read on BBmolla.

It reads incredibly fake to me; and a not strong town read is not reason to assume he's telling the truth when evaluating a deadline vote situation between two players.

In case this isn't obvious, you're a scumread, Faraday.

[Junpei]

Faraday is scum because he knows Pine is telling the truth; or at least he is scum and Pine is not scum with him and so assumed he was telling the truth.

In addition, it's at the point where it's either me and Shadoweh, and I know I'm town so...

This doesn't come from demotivated and defeatist town, by the way.

[Junpei]

Ha, Faraday and his inadequate skill can't tell what is and isn't a hammer. Faraday will be lucky to live another day.

pedit: Don't scum usually get inactive around deadline to avoid situations like this? Please think more and talk less, Faraday.

[Junpei]

why you busting mah gambit sirrah

not really sure. wanted an actual hammer asap.

Because you actually were fooled.

[Junpei]

Are you asking if I think you were fooled by Chesskids' fake vote? Yes I do.

[Junpei]

LYNCHER WIN.

This was the first post, and I think that this combined with the very fake sounding "seriously someone hammer" shows that you were just covering your ego in that later post.

[Junpei]

> 10 minute response time. Ouch. Nice cover.

..? Sorry if I don't sit at the computer and spam f5 all the time for you Faraday; if you're curious I'm waiting a few hours before I head out, and am burning time every now and again by shooting free throws. Nice indirect response, this conversation about your wounded ego is over though.

[Junpei]

BBmolla why would you ask that question?

Pine, why chesskid?

[Junpei]

vote BBmolla

Faraday please post less.. 2403 is basically an "I don't know and I don't care" post; why even respond if that's the case? 2404 is nonsensical.

[Junpei]

Also the person I roleblocked may be able to confirm me.

...As a roleblocker. Which is a common scum role, which you want to out an information role for.

[Junpei]

Also the person I roleblocked may be able to confirm me.

...As a roleblocker. Which is a common scum role, which you want to out an information role for.

Stupid or scummy?

Scummy because it would seem to imply that he isn't worried about if his actions are hurting town, even in the idea of hiding/protecting power roles. Seems like he was worried that we wouldn't believe his claim.

[Junpei]

I think both mastin and bbmolla are scum.

[Junpei]

I think both mastin and bbmolla are scum.

Why do you think this? Do you think they're on the same team?

Independently scummy; not sure about what specific team; that's not how I operate most of the time.

[Junpei]

Hi ya'll lets get this fustercluck back on track shall we? As a rule when I replace in I only read the last ten pages. This is what I have just done. If there is pertinent information beyond that, tell me and quote the area, I'll go back and re read it. Here's what I got from the last ten pages.

Mos Scum=Pine Scum
Mos Scum= Junpei town
Junpei Town= Mos Scum
Cool dog Scum= Tammy scum
HLScum=Tammy town
Tammy Town=HL Scum
Mos Scum= Zdenek Town
Zdenek scum= Mos scum
Empking= Town
Lost Butterfly= town
BB= possible scum (major lurking=BB scum)
Pine Scum= PV town
PIneSCUm =GV town
MOS SCum= BB Town

VOTE: MOS This lynch gives us a lot of information as well as likely being scum, lets get this rolling folks.

Uh Tiphaine... I think you lost a lot of credibility with your association convictions with this post.

Av/Junpei-if one is scum both are, and of the same alignment. Made this connection awhile back, figured I'd point it out again if your thinkging of lynching them. BB and Mastin are still both town. But I was wrong about shadoweh, :/.

1) A connection you have no commitment to

2) Completely irrelevant as we aren't considering either of us as a lynch at this exact moment

3) A soft push away from Mastin/Bbmolla wagons without any real commitment.

[Junpei]

Bah. Just lost my post. It was starting a list of reasons for my vote. Let's do it again.
-Shadow flipped Lawful Evil. Shadow was not on either of my scumteams, and was in fact near the top of my townlist. That means that I was at least partially wrong in my reads.
-I'm still alive. Neither faction has tried to nightkill me, despite there being very little support for a wagon on me and many players having come to my defense as being, "Meh, it's Mastin". This tells me that I'm not on the right track--in fact, I'm probably mostly wrong, since if I were even CLOSE to being on the right track, I'd be a threat to the scum. The fact that I'm not dead is proof enough that I was wrong.
-This is further supported by MoS's thoughts on Tammy. It rules her out as Lawful Evil at the very least.

"My reads suck" fluff

Not going to comment on the rest of the post yet.

[Junpei]

1 town ethical cop
1 town RB
1 Scum RB

Why are you assuming that BBmolla scum = BBmolla RB? Why do you think he's a roleblocker at all..?

[Junpei]

if you look at the game from Pine's perspective it's pretty easy to see where most of his thought-processes have come from, even if he didn't always think things through correctly.

Elaborate on this.

[Junpei]

When someone has town reads on my main suspects and scum reads on four of my top town reads, I see more than a little cause for concern

Never understood this because fallibility, but whatever.

...if Pine was scum, why would he not just pretend to listen to us and claim OBVRESULT on someone who has already claimed their alignment?
.

That isn't a response to what CooLDoG said. CooLDoG said that action X is scum motivated because Y. You said that action X is not scum motivated because why wouldn't action X be action B. The issue here is that all that action X is what happened, not B. If action X is devoid of town motivation but has scum motivation, then pointing out another possible scum action in B does not change anything.

[Junpei]

Let's see. If I'm a power role, and I've been suspicious of someone all game, and then investigate them and discover that I am wrong, I wouidn't call that person suddenly obv. town.

No, I'd call them slightly scummy, and then Day 5 when I claim I get speedlynched because of it. Shadowehs' softclaim makes sense from a town perspective and a scum perspective.

BBmolla should still be lynched.

[Junpei]

I understand people's concerns about BB's actions concerning his role, but I still have a town read on him.

Alright, lets hear it: The town thought process behind BBmolla's actions this day.

[Junpei]

Tammy, all I want to know is why you think (go a level or two deeper than "prove role": there's always a "why" to be had) BBmolla acted today the way he did. I'll tell you why I think so but I want to hear from you.

pedit: not everyone is good at scum, people make mistakes. The key is to tell what is a scum mistake and what is a town ignorance.

[Junpei]

I think he thought as town he had a chance to catch AV as scum possibly and have himself confirmed as town. If he legitimately believed AV to be scum, which he had stated before, then there isn't rolefishing involved. He thought he found a way to prove himself and AV.

Lets be clear here: You are saying that BBmolla felt that despite the fact that there were two successful kills, that he had roleblocked scum?

I haven't forgotten the rest of 2570; I think it is reasonable to reference what you did, although I'm not interested in discussing it or considering it right now.

Why did BBmolla ask if he should claim who he roleblocked?

Why did BBmolla claim he did not roleblock Pine?

Why did BBmolla delay claiming that AurorusVox was his target?

Also I don't see anywhere in BBmolla's thought process where he thinks he'll be confirmed town or anything... care to point that out?

[Junpei]

Err Tammy, could you do me a favor?

Could you re-respond to 2571 after you get some sleep?

[Junpei]

Are you saying my logic is flawed.

I mean, sure, if you don't mind waiting until mid-next week.

I meant I think you're completely misunderstanding my post because you're not completely lucid. If I have to wait four days then I have to wait four days. I won't forget though, this is very important.

Also I think editing Normans' silly post is unfortunate. I still read his ISO from time to time just to laugh.

[Junpei]

Moreover, have I tried to excuse anything scummy I said while I was drunk by just saying ":drunkposting:"?

Implicitly and indirectly, yes. By making it abundantly clear that you were drunk, you might suggest that we should take into account that what you're doing is out of your control and thus null.

[Junpei]

Also Tammy: how do you feel right now? Sleepy?

[Junpei]

@Junpei, ah but can I be held accountable for that implied meaning? DUN DUN DUNNNNNNN

Yes and here's how: We don't know how much of that was you being legitimately drunk and how much was over-exaggerating.

[Junpei]

AVox's failure to pick up on what Tammy actually meant by "snooze-fest" indicates that he's not really reading the thread with the intent to understand what's going on.

I disagree, I thought she was tired as well.

[Junpei]

Unvote
Vote: Nachomamma

Where did this vote come from?

[Junpei]

But why did you vote him specifically in 2617?

[Junpei]

But why did you vote him specifically in 2617?

Because I don't like having my vote in a useless place.

A 2 man wagon is much more useful than a 1 man wagon?

[Junpei]

Sigh, Mastins posts make me want to punch something.

My feelings exactly.

[Junpei]

Less fluff; more anything else.

To avoid this from being fluff: I endorse MoS' question towards TiphaineDeath.

[Junpei]

Actually, I want everyone to ISO Briz and let me know why they aren't voting him because none of his scumhunting is genuine at all.

I'll do this later.

[Junpei]

I've done what I - and no one else - feels is right.

Hm, how can you be sure? I would like to implore people voting Pine to look from Pines' perspective and see if his targets help town from his perspective. There is a difference, after all, between objective facts and subjective truths. The former is static, the latter is why we play the game. I'm sure we can find out if Pine is scummy for his targets in isolation. I would think that someone would have already done this though.

I think that Pines' claim itself is town and think Mastin is surely scum; lets lynch Mastin.

[Junpei]

I'm the only one I know has the Town's best interests in mind. I won't be intimidated. Chesskid was a mostly random choice from my large null pool.

Uhoh, an ISO of Pine might find that this trips a lot of wires, I need to do it later, but I'm busy today. Also this makes no sense if you're claiming that you are ignoring input from everyone else on who to investigate yet choose randomly from your null pool. By doing this you aren't even accepting your own input, and are actually only considering people who have given no input whatsoever, making it an impossible choice.

From your perspective this makes no sense because you claim to care much about your choice yet randomly choose from a set of unknowns independent of all input.

[Junpei]

Incorrect. The best use of an investigative ability is to clarify or gain information about unclear reads. Hence why I have chosen people I was uncertain about.

So then what does others' input and "towns best interest" have to do with anything?

[Junpei]

Junpei, you're confusing the WHO with the HOW. The influence of others and my own opinion have entirely to do with HOW I use the ability: whether to verify claims or to reveal the unclaimed alignments of unknown quantities. I choose the latter. When you choose the latter, the WHO matters less, as long as it's someone who is null or unclear.

No, what I meant was, what does the apparent truism that you are the only person you know that has towns' best interests have to do with anything?

[Junpei]

Especially now with the town flip.

Look at me and my old post hoc fallacious reasoning.

But Peregrine I disagree, it is not legitimate, it just isn't suspect.

[Junpei]

Compared to the revelation of completely new information

Explain the benefits of this information, please.

[Junpei]

he's better when he doesn't post ._.

...so then what does this say about him?

Should we be expecting to see anything from Empking at all today/in the next few days?

My experience with Empking is that he thinks he is being very strong and secretive but never really contributes. So I guess the next few days is wrapped in the confines of "this game". Why do you ask this question?

[Junpei]

Well then, I guess I have to assume Pine is scum because he isn't this oblivious. He just backed himself into a corner and is playing the dumb card.

BBmolla still the lynch today, but Pine is a major suspect right now.

[Junpei]

Would you say he's the sort of town to sheep whatever other people tell him to do?

So we agree that using this type of meta on Pine is useless?

[Junpei]

Yea, not buying it. I'm going with Occam's Razor on this one.

Oh yes lets go with the formal fallacy which is easily abused, that sounds safe. Lets not do our best to decide if Pine is faking or not, lets just fall on Occam's Razor, and pretend that we are worried about slipping down a 'slippery slope'.

[Junpei]

Here is how pines' role is useful to town:

IF he had not outed himself, scum might change alignment names to confuse the town or to stage a gambit. However... there is one thing which I think we forget: We don't know scums' powers or win con. Those two things are very important in determining how useful Pines' role is to town. What I can say is that once outed, Pines' role can not help town further.

[Junpei]

However... there is one thing which I think we forget

: We don't know scums

' powers or

win con

. Those two things are very important in determining how useful Pines' role is to town.

Yes we do, I quoted it earlier and you even went as far to comment on it. Also how is Briz's ISO going?

Oh yeah, now I remember why Pines' role makes sense from town. If scum are Lawful and claim Lawful town, then they will be targeted by the opposing scum team. Scum has EVERY INCENTIVE to lie because it protects them from the other scumteam. If Pines' role isn't known then you can catch those lies.

There, now we can stop being dumb about Pines' roles' usefulness if true. I'll do the Briz ISO.

[Junpei]

MoS: Zdenek is also saying that Pines' actions are highly unlikely to come from town, qualifying his belief that Pine is trying to act abstract purposefully (which we are perceiving as scummy).

[Junpei]

Oh; well that's odd, I'll look into that after Briz. I personally think that Pines' actions are highly unlikely to come from town, which qualifies my suspicion. So now you have my argument to respond to and strawman.

Faraday: I don't have a strong read on MoS right now, but I think he's easily misled by himself.

[Junpei]

Okay, fine. I just went through brizingre's ISO and his reads don't make any sense with each other or his other posting to me whatsoever.

vote brixingre1

Been busy, but here we go; lets lynch.

[Junpei]

Also if anyone is undecided on briz, I can point out examples to his contradicting reads. Not to mention I feel that his "I'll lynch these guys" lists and read list are just made up to give appearance of scumhunting and to let him lynch someone. Pines' sudden appearance as a scum read after being listed as town in his first list and Pines' reoccurance in his lists implicate Pine a bit to me, but that's only after briz flips scum.

[Junpei]

Ugh, triple post but

vote Oversoul

since he replaced in.

Lets, go, 5 days is enough.

[Junpei]

Junpei what's your Nacho read

Scum read, but Briz is stronger.

[Junpei]

Junpei what's your Nacho read

Scum read, but Briz is stronger.

Have you heard of the spoiler effect?

Yes, I have.

However I will remind you that "similar" candidates are described as similar in more than one attribute (level of scumminess). Nacho is suspicious yes, but Briz is suspicious for different reasons. While the level of scum/town is similar (though different), the lower levels are even more different (Nacho for not caring about who is scum/his own reads, Briz for inconsistent reads and very suspect read patterns).

But if you want to play the "compromise card", then come to Briz, why don't you?

[Junpei]

Faraday: Sure thing, I pride myself on the ability to be succinct.

Notice Pines' positioning on his town-scum list (near the top) One post later, doesn't understand why LMP finds Pine town. Then a few more posts later outright says that Pine is scummy.

Here's the first scumlist, compare it with the list in the first post I linked.

After unvoting Norman a post prior, backs away from his Norman suspicion completely when responding to Haze

Compare this lynch list with the previous two, the progression makes no sense with his posting.

Third lynch list, and Fourth lynch list.

That should be enough. Also he wasn't pushing any lynches actively and left a lot of "I'll do more later" clauses in his writing.

[Junpei]

Junpei which person has more votes atm.

You.

[Junpei]

Vote BBmolla with me today and I'll go with you on Oversoul tomorrow

I have two policies of my own:
1) Replacements only change plans during a policy lynch
2) No vote exchange deals - I do what I think is the best decision at the given time and won't barter my vote out.

Just vote Oversoul, he doesn't need to catch up, he's likely scum.

[Junpei]

I don't like voting replacements either before they have a chance to come in and make an impression. There are some people that are just damn suspicious. I've seen slots that are highly regarded as scum slots be replaced into by better players who've been able to turn things around for their slot.

Is Oversoul someone you think will massively catch up and turn around the slot?

The replacement argument is flawed in that the alignment of the slot doesn't change. Briz has shown nothing but scum motive, and no town thought processes. That's a no as in none. That's all we need, the case is solved; we don't need Oversoul to supply us a second set of data.

[Junpei]

Well I'll save the acquaintance and tell you that Oversoul isn't someone who is going to turn a slot into super pro-town, especially in a 100+page replace-in game to a very suspicious slot.

Do you hold any qualms with my case on Briz?

[Junpei]

Why did BBmolla ask if he should claim who he roleblocked?

Why did BBmolla claim he did not roleblock Pine?

Why did BBmolla delay claiming that AurorusVox was his target?

Also I don't see anywhere in BBmolla's thought process where he thinks he'll be confirmed town or anything... care to point that out?

Also Tammy, after you finish that, could you answer these questions? Don't vote BBmolla though, vote Oversoul (Briz' replacement).

[Junpei]

Well the briz thing is more important right now, if you are crunched for time. You can wait till tomorrow for the BBmolla questions if you feel pressured.

[Junpei]

Please do not wagon or lynch me until I've read everything. I'm on page 15.

Sorry but that's not an option. Your slot is highly suspicious, and is a lynch target today.

Note the replacement card being played by Oversoul, trying to fend of votes.

[Junpei]

Tammy you should relax.

I'll switch votes to Briz if I can get MAH NACHO WAGON interested. CHESSKID what say you? Zdenek?

You'd be willing to switch your vote to someone who just replaced in and hasn't had a chance to read everything yet? I'm asking in a most relaxed manner possible...

There's no time to wait for him to catch up. I guarantee he won't catch up and have reads ready by the end of the day, and there's a decent chance he never will.

[Junpei]

But Nachomamma isn't either, and he's had time. What's the difference?

Briz has been far more scummy. Not catching up in a game of this size is understandable. I haven't even read everything; Nacho if town will come around eventually or flake, or perhaps trip some wires and we'll bring him up for some rope. But right now, my Briz case is the best bet I see; why don't you like it?

[Junpei]

Hm, interesting. Even so, there are some inconsistencies in his reads. I'll think some more about it though.

[Junpei]

~Mina

You should take over the posting, I can already tell that this conversation will be more meaningful than anything had with Faraday.

I had not a real read on brizingre until very recently (this real life day, in fact) and only gained it upon request by Regfan that I read brizingre's ISO. I had no opinion on him, and read the posts and lists as they came, and as I did I noticed inconsistencies. I noted them as they went, and then after that I read his ISO again with the inconsistencies in hand to make sure that none of them were actually consistent or otherwise not scummy.

What I found scummy was his inconsistent lists, his not pushing of any scum reads, and his overall way of bringing up lynch lists without any reasoning attached, as if to just try to tee people up to vote them.

Does that answer your question?

[Junpei]

Junpei, I'm not playing any card. I don't want to waste legitimately 4 hours of my life if the slot is just going to get lynched.

Then just waste some of it and give us reads from part of the game. That way you don't fully commit and can contribute and get the ball rolling in case you aren't lynched.

[Junpei]

Tammy, I would also say that I think that briz was never fully caught up later in the game, and just made lists at will because he felt that the elapsed time should justify it when really he had no reasons and was just thinking that people would accept it as evolving reads over time.

[Junpei]

@Junpei. How is this any different than the stuff you're pointing out with Briz, or some of it?

I'm providing reasoning on everything. I have actual reason for development of certain reads, I see no evidence in briz's ISO that he was every caught up, that he had more than one or two reasons overall for his reads, or that he actually wanted any of his reads lynched.

[Junpei]

A follow up? Today? You'll need to be more articulate.

[Junpei]

1) Don't insult my comprehension skills and then turn around and say you may have not read something properly

2) You aren't someone who is getting lynched as, you aren't the most suspicious person and, when I said "Faraday is scum" I meant "Faraday is suspicious" (hyperbole, something you use a lot).

3) My MoS scum read diminished because he wasn't saying anything overtly suspicious and he faded away. He didn't do anything too suspicious and on review I am not sold on my initial suspicion of him.

[Junpei]

Help me now and maybe I'll consider a reshuffle.

What? Help you lynch BBmolla and maybe you'll reconsider and vote Briz? If that's not what you mean, then enough of the vote deals, they're fundamentally bad.

[Junpei]

Junpei, what do you think I meant if not what you suggested?

I thought you were saying "you vote bbmolla/pine today, I'll vote briz/nacho tomorrow", if not what I suggested.

[Junpei]

I'd still not be comfortable voting him today though. There's a replacement that has just come in for his slot, and I don't care who else knows the replacement's meta and thinks it won't be any better, I still don't think it's right. Besides, the replacement could be better; I don't want to lynch him without even giving him a chance.

Tammy, enough with the mafia ethics please. Briz gave us a big enough sample, we don't need Oversouls', especially considering that replacements generally look more town on their own by virtue of having more to work with at the beginning. You have nothing to feel bad about if you lynch Oversoul right now.

[Junpei]

Oversoul.. did you seriously just called Empking ubiquitous? Do you know what that word means? Not surprised at all at me being scum, can't wait to see the case.

[Junpei]

More Oversoul votes, there's time.

Oversoul, don't ignore the fact that Haze only had 12 posts by page 50, answer Regfan.

[Junpei]

ITT: Softclaims.,

Yeah, and he said he was going to bed, but I guess he was lurking.

[Junpei]

With only 4 votes on him currently and a lot more needed for a lynch I don't see how he'd possibly think he could be quick-lynched overnight to the point of begging to have a chance to claim. The soft-claim and reaction reeks of scum.

I disagree. This reeks of Oversoul town so far, actually. He's *really* good at digging himself a hole as town (see: Mortal Kombat).

His town meta is being scummy then? Yeah no, not buying that.

[Junpei]

Oversoul's kind of derpy. He attracts a lot of negative attention as town - MOS is correct on that.

Does he attract negative attention as scum?

[Junpei]

I have a feeling that most people

i) haven't read my briz case

ii) haven't ISO'd briz

or are under the illusion that it'd be too unethical to lynch Oversoul right now because he's a replacement.

[Junpei]

Trying to undermine my point against you because of a technicality based on the word I chose to describe your play.

Considering that you used the word 'ubiquitous' 100% incorrectly (there are a plethora of other words you could have used that have the prefix 'un-' for the acronym) I doubt the issue is with Tammy and more with you not fully understanding what you're explicitly saying.

Also Oversoul, I have seen you get completely wrecked as scum the moment you started to actually try to contribute, so that meta argument isn't going to fly with me.

[Junpei]

Tammy because she was über useless early game and asked a lot of questions.

This is ambiguous in that someone who feels that asking questions is content and productive (Tammy clearly does) is going to see a contradiction here. Suspecting her for that is ridiculous.

[Junpei]

Yes but you also called her specifically scummy for her response. Also 3033 is bad as well because 1) filler posts are inherently harsh and 2) they aren't filler posts so much that they are inherent properties of Tammys' playstyle. The intent behind them is clear and if you are attacking her for that then you have a lot of people (including yourself and your meaningless list) you need to attack as well.

Can we get more votes on Oversoul now? He's hedging every remark made at him, I refuse to correct him each time.

[Junpei]

Maybe it is your naivety or your join date, but you shouldn't worry about MoS *not* contributing. I assume you didn't know that, but everyone else's interaction should have tipped you off. It didn't and I consider you to be a good observer.

I 100% disagree and feel that worrying about MoS not contributing was the right thing to do. People just don't notice lurkers all the time and they slip under the carpet. Also The six months longer Oversoul has been on the site than Tammy means nothing, considering he hasn't exactly impressed many people. Nice condescending remark, I think that you're purposefully being hypocritical to start a hate war, so Tammy please don't respond, just vote him.

pedit: Oversoul that is not what confirmation bias is, go Google it; what you described is OMGUS, or a variant.
pedit2: Why don't you ISO him and stop being useless?

[Junpei]

Any player who is incapable of playing day 1 very well is not a complete player and not a "very good player". Stop buddying MoS, also the fact that you showed suspicion on Tammy on the assumption that she knew MoS's playstyle and supposed reputation is further evidence that you're making things up as you go.

[Junpei]

Oversoul is playing really hyper and defensive for someone replacing into a 122 page game where there were a couple lynch leaders ahead of him at the time of replacing him.

If you vote him we'll have 5 on the wagon.

[Junpei]

8) A lynch will occur when a player achieves 50% +1 of the votes. When this has happened, any subsequent votes and unvotes will not be counted, and the game will enter twilight. Night will begin as soon as I have declared the lynch.
9) You may vote for a ‘no lynch’ if desired. If a majority of the players in the game vote for a no lynch, the game will progress to night without a lynch.

Mod this is ambiguous as to what happens if deadline is reached and we have a majority lynch (someone has the most votes) but not a plurality lynch (someone has 50% + 1 votes)

[Junpei]

Well BBmolla is going to be the days' lynch and I'm going to vote him after Oversoul is done; I won't let a no lynch happen. It'd be nice if we could get more succinct opinions from Feysal or some content from lurkers as well, but Regfan I'm afraid that we are too late with the Oversoul/Briz lynch.

[Junpei]

Ugh, I just realized something.

Also why Nacho?

[Junpei]

Seacore, if I use a basic encryption mechanism such as a Vingere Cipher which is well known is that okay? Or if I tell people to use Vingere Cipher ingame?

Still have that question, Tammy?

[Junpei]

Things that are a waste of time: quote wall wars. Tell me what you want me to know succinctly or don't bother arguing.

[Junpei]

Things that are a waste of time: quote wall wars. Tell me what you want me to know succinctly or don't bother arguing.

No offense Junpei, but I'm pretty sure we weren't interacting or arguing or quote wall waring for your benefit. Pretty sure we were interacting as a means of evaluating each other.

But you were making a point weren't you? You guys were debating something of importance right? You have opinions you value right? You want town to understand and appreciate those values right?

[Junpei]

then she would know that BB had a spell called Hold Person.

Wait, we know for certain that BBmolla is a roleblocker and we know for certain that Shadoweh would make up a spell as the scumteam of BBmolla if circumstances allow that? I think Shadoweh not making up a spell has nothing to do with which side she is on and all to do with her awareness and thinking.

[Junpei]

vote cooldog

Well I have questions later, but I need to think about this guilty. Regardless, it's time to die for CoolDoG.

Come on guys, 9 different people will visit the thread, and a guilty is basically auto-vote.

ATTENTION ALL: THERE IS A COP GUILTY ON COOLDOG, VOTE ASAP

[Junpei]

Chesskid does not look good if CoolDoG flips scum.

[Junpei]

why do you come with this shit with 1d left in dealdine

Unvote

Vote: CoolDoG

*mutters*

Was the only one to question lynching the guilty. Not sure where Feysel came from.

[Junpei]

why do you come with this shit with 1d left in dealdine

Unvote

Vote: CoolDoG

*mutters*

Was the only one to question lynching the guilty. Not sure where Feysel came from.

Yes. And why is this scummy? What does chesskid scum hope to achieve by questioning the guilty other than looking bad?

Consider that he felt that less than 24 hours was daunting for people to switch, or that he could sell that it was. Consider that he is scum with CooLDoG. Consider that he was protecting his buddy rather than watching him burn, because Peregrine's actions are very risky, and it is possible that Chesskid thought that he could turn the tables.

Scum don't always recognize what will look bad or good in the end; that's all post hoc.

Moneybags I don't understand what you're saying.

[Junpei]

Or perhaps Chesskid just subconsciously doubted Peregrine on virtue of him suspecting his scumpal a lot and trying to crusade the lynch. Town chesskid probably wouldn't doubt the guilty like that, no?

[Junpei]

2) Why did you just reveal a bunch of PR ability names and make it easier for scum to fake claim?

Well I'd say that to me it really adds credibility to his claim, especially with less than 24 hours where every post needs to be a vote by a new person, not discussing the terms of the guilty.

[Junpei]

2) Why did you just reveal a bunch of PR ability names and make it easier for scum to fake claim?

Well I'd say that to me it really adds credibility to his claim, especially with less than 24 hours where every post needs to be a vote by a new person, not discussing the terms of the guilty.

Eh peregrine's a cautious player I find, the chances of him pulling anything like faking a claim off is pretty much negligible.

I wasn't implying it was fake... rather that he wanted to have a credible claim followed quickly by a lynch.

Town chesskid probably wouldn't doubt the guilty like that, no?

Not sure if this is rhetorical or you're asking what I know of chesskid - I think he might as he tends to get attached to his own scumreads (i.e. nacho) and pretty much want to ignore everything else.

That's very unfortunate and I hope he is able to remedy that....

[Junpei]

Vote Oversoul

We won't be claiming ethics today, it's too early no thanks. Now can we lynch this guy even though he's new?

[Junpei]

Also Pine if you ever live to future days, wait to claim your result until after we have decided to or not to mass claim. That will force scum (if you're town) to be honest. We aren't mass claiming as long as that can't be helped.

[Junpei]

I was still hoping the scumblocker would block you and I'd get confirmed notblockingPine.

How would Pine claiming roleblocked confirm you as "not blocking Pine".

[Junpei]

BBmolla... how would we know if Feysal was roleblocked or not? Also that assumes Pine is town.

Feysal is a scumread by the way. That last post isn't scumhunting and it seems every post is similar. He seems to write a lot without saying much.

[Junpei]

OH yeah, I was the guy who turned that code into the mod, and I think it's very low of you to use a code for any reason, it better be mindgames. Regardless, since you're softclaiming PR, just let it be known that anything you claim in code from earlier does not gain any more merit.

Also wouldn't you WANT scum to do predictable scum things? That makes them NOTICABLE. Now post reads.

[Junpei]

So guys. Why is Oversoul scum?

So you haven't been paying attention. Go ISO me for "briz" and you'll find my case on the Oversoul slot.

[Junpei]

Ok, so, pine is chaotic evil role blocker Its good to know that.

Elaborate.

[Junpei]

a lot of pages.. jesus christ..

[Junpei]

Wait, I thought you once told me that you never read walls.

I LOVE this comment. Chesskid finally will stop acting like such an arrogant fool perhaps.

Can someone quickly tell me why the BBmolla wagon has exploded? The pages seem to contain lots of text and I don't have time tonight to read it but am curious.

[Junpei]

There are some issues with that claim... if no one else points it out by the time I can, I will.

[Junpei]

Well I"m behind again... stop posting so much.

is it safe to vote BBmolla?

[Junpei]

Oh yeah I forgot about that. Alright, I'm heading out in 10 minutes for a while.. I assume you won't mind if I post the points in multiple posts hours apart.

[Junpei]

1. Claimed Lawful good. Claimed to have found one of both scumteams with absolute certainty, yet votes the scum which is not against his supposed faction

2. CCd wizard. BBmolla claimed in post 2291 Feysel's next post was not sounding convinced of bbmolla scum. His next post the next day did not sound like he was initially convinced or that he is 99% sure. It doesn't feel like he is town who genuinely has a mechanical scum read on another slot. And we're talking about multiple gamedays here.

3. BBmolla's response thusfar has been very defeatist. But not defeatist like you'd expect from town, but from scum who thinks he has a guilty on him. The issue is that Feysels' claim has had holes in it as pointed above and BBmolla as scum probably wouldn't feel defeated in that scenario. Therefore I suspect bussing between BBmolla and Feysel. That explains why there are trails leading to a wizard claim but they are not genuine sounding in the least. It also explains BBmolla's lackluster responses.

[Junpei]

Yeah, probably a bus Shadow. Seems too much like a plan to me. I bet Feysel is the scumteam which won't attack lawful good. There are several parts of Feysal's claim which allow it to live to endgame.

pedit: Rule 3 about a guilty-bus in my opinion is ending the day asap. Rule 1 is don't go quickly but BBmolla isn't the best at this I'm guessing.

[Junpei]

When BB responded to Feysal he never voted for Feysal, do you think that has any significance?

It obviously would fit with my ideal, but on its own no. Because he is playing the part of scum who is flat out busted, he wouldn't bother to vote Feysal anyway. I don't think either of them are town, but I don't think the not voting Feysal is important.

[Junpei]

The likelihood of a bus by Feysal is remote. Feysal has painted a giant target on himself for the CE team to shoot at. That would be ridiculously bad scumplay

>implying Feysel is not CE

Do you know something I don't?

[Junpei]

The likelihood of a bus by Feysal is remote. Feysal has painted a giant target on himself for the CE team to shoot at. That would be ridiculously bad scumplay

>implying Feysel is not CE

Do you know something I don't?

...really? If Feysal is CE, he can't be bussing

How do we know that BBmolla isn't CE?

[Junpei]

8 scum in 26p game isn't that crazy. it's less than 33%, the max with two scum teams as a general rule.

pedit: too late, pal.

[Junpei]

I've seen 9:4 minis.. I'm sure I have. Regardless, I firmly believe BBmolla and Feysal are bussing. Let me know when you're ready to end the day, I'll try to find time to read what I've missed.

[Junpei]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FRKEURw ... re=related
This is a good song.

Pine, pretend that Feysal is bussing BBmolla for a moment. You're the other scumteam. What do you see when you look at that claim? What about the rest of the town?

[Junpei]

junpei, do you have a link to your most recent scum game? I'd look at your Wiki, but you don't have one

I don't keep wikis because I don't believe in meta. But Red Dead Redemption Mafia I think was lost in the crash. If you want to see my only other scum games, look at Setals' Speed Mafia (not going to link unless you want to see my second onsite game and a speed mafia game) and Magician Mafia: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=19062

Red Dead was a vast improvement from that game though, I'm not bad at scum like that game implies.

[Junpei]

They DO, however, see a claimed Lawful Good PR with undisclosed powers that just blew up scum.

That just blew up CE scum. Not whatever the other scumteam is called. It makes much more sense for PRs to help their alignment, not other alignments.

[Junpei]

I'm saying that Feysal and BB are Chaotic Evil.

I'm hammering BBmolla to prove my point within an hour.

[Junpei]

Big FOS on Junpei. Town has absolutely zero reason to believe there are four on each team. If we lynch a third person for either scumteam and that half of the game doesn't end, Junpei gets turbolynched

Why do we think there are only six scum in a 26 player game and not eight scum in a 26 player game?

6/26 is 23%... 8/26 is 30%

The latter number is much more attractive considering.. you know... two scum teams and all. I know basic balance theory, and it states that 23% is too low generally for two scum teams. I'll believe it when I see it. Your 10:3 + 10:3 theory is ridiculous and 9:4 9:4 is much more believable to me.

[Junpei]

But the two setups are COMBINED, which changes things. Most setups which are balanced can't just be added together to make a nice large theme game.

[Junpei]

Shadow: What do you think of Pine saying that I am almost confirmed scum if there turn out to be 4 scum per team? Also pretty sure that experimental is meaning to indicate the whole two town thing.

[Junpei]

If that were true, the towns could barely afford any mislynches if they wanted to win.

Not true at all.

Also your claim is just the kind of thing I thought you'd claim. Also find it odd you haven't asked the mod if "commoner" = confirmed town or not.

[Junpei]

Stop pretending like crosskills can't happen, especially with 1 dead scum from what we can only assume was a crosskill.

[Junpei]

Ugh, for today:

vote Oversoul

Long overdue. He's no longer the new replace-in, lets roll.

[Junpei]

I don't care what is agreed, I won't be claiming my ethical standing, and everyone who is is making a premature mistake. I'd LOVE to hear the rational benefits from doing this.

[Junpei]

No, we don't care about your vote or your contrived reasoning. If you need a mass ethics claim to make it then there's no way that it is currently valid. I don't trust you at all to have a good reason if town and even then I think you're scum.

Your reputation isn't good, so no thanks with the blind trust argument.

More Oversoul votes: Clear content hostaging here.

pedit: Wow, you mean that we make no one lie? Wow, so basically the scum won't lie and we won't catch them in a trap! Boy all the usefulness THAT could cause.

[Junpei]

I have a very big issue with this mass claim which stems from the idea of a divided town. I can not give credence to the usefulness of this proposal. I think you're scum, and I don't understand how if we know no one will lie that the physical claiming will do any good.

[Junpei]

but then again I am an idiot and not very good at these sorts of things.

Are you CRAZY?

Pine not claiming his result in encryption should NOT mess with your plan. I'm positive it doesn't, which means your plan is to mass claim and bullshit a reason, nothing more.

No one will lie about their ethics. Get that in your head.

pedit: Chesskid is right, in world T wherein I'm part of a larger town than the other town, I'd ignore the other towns' cries for help.

[Junpei]

ONE scum

One town

with connections available

I don't see why any of the larger town would ever want to help the smaller town rather than just ignore them and let the smaller towns' scum kill of the final of the smaller town.

[Junpei]

Oversoul, there is a very critical reason why Chaotic good would not want a mass claim. Stop getting all "I am outcast, it is too bad you all didn't listen to I!" on us.

pedit: Hm, letme think about that.

[Junpei]

vote Pine

This is the best option, we have no real choice. Either Oversoul is scum or Pine is (or both..) and Oversoul playing the cold card is very town.

Whether you're lawful good or chaotic good, you need to vote Pine. Obviously is anyone CCs Cleric do so asap.

[Junpei]

Since Oversoul has a Lawful Evil guilty on BB, then the odds of BB attacking his own partner are really nonexistent.

Oh by the way if there are 4 man scum teams, Oversoul is scum. But that's not important right now, so lets just get Pine.

Oversoul, clarify the way your ability works.

You visit X
Y visit X

Who gets roleblocked assuming everyone is lawful?

Yes Oversoul we know that you were softclaiming encryptions, we're not stupid.

[Junpei]

Oh oversoul.. that's...
...
So why wouldn't Pine assume the OTHER team got roleblocked?

[Junpei]

Why do we know that CE killed MoI? Why would Pine know this day 2?

[Junpei]

Also Oversoul, I want you to show us how to decrypt your encryption earlier.

pedit: Okay I get that you knew that Chaotic scum killed MoI, but how does Pine know that it was Chaotic scum if he also tried to kill MoI? Why not assume that the Chaotic scum got RB'd?

[Junpei]

Also, stop voting Pine people. If he ends up being the day's lynch that's one thing, but jumping onto it right now does nothing good for either town. kthnx.

He's no where near L-1...

Honestly I don't think that Oversouls' role condemns Pine at all.. but Pines' reaction coupled with Oversouls' claim is interesting.

Also Oversoul 4 man scum teams makes you scum because it eliminates the reason you seem town.

[Junpei]

Oh and Junpei - You better make this reasoning REALLY good for why I'm all of a sudden scum.

Huh? I didn't call you scum. Go to sleep already.

[Junpei]

Mod: If two killing roles successfully submitted a kill some person X on some night, would the following day express the fact that there were TWO attempts on X's life?

[Junpei]

If you investigated me then you tell ME my alignment. I'm not exactly in any danger of being lynched, and there's pressure on you.

[Junpei]

Nah, I'm not claiming my ethics. Either follow through on your lolthreat or move on to the next "possibility".

[Junpei]

If I were scum I wouldn't lie Pine, stop being stupid. There are a lot of reasons not to lie in this game about your ethics. You obviously are either scum with no result who's afraid of being wrong on me or you have a result on someone else; stop bothering me.

[Junpei]

Claim your ethics, or I will.

Nacho, I've made it abundantly clear I'm not claiming my ethics. Yet he has yet to enlighten us with my alignment. Empty threats don't come from people with no explicit information on the threat.

[Junpei]

I mean, empty threats don't come from people WITH explicit information on the threat.

[Junpei]

Pine is indeed at L-2, Tammy. But I see no reason why Pine shouldn't claim my ethic for me.

[Junpei]

Lets put it this way then:

1) I claim my ethics first
-> I am forced to tell the truth, because the risk of lying is too damning

2) Pine claims first
->He investigated me
--->We hear my true ethics
->He didn't investigate me
--->He admits this and claims his other investigation, and I claim my ethics

No matter what, I am committed to something. It does not matter WHO commits me to something. The theory of two-towns demands only that I am committed to an ethic claim, however it does not matter how it is influenced or who makes it, only that it is made and that I am committed to it.

I want Pine to tell me because if he gets it wrong then he is confirmed scum to me. I say this because I have doubts about Pine scum now.

[Junpei]

unvote

There, now you care what I think of you.

I am not afraid of committing to one alignment. In fact, I will have no choice. All you have to do is 1) tell me what my ethic is or 2) tell me you did not investigate me last night.

It's not hard to understand the theory behind making me commit to something, it's that we want every scum to have to either fear crosskill or be autoscum when 1 town wins/1 scum wins. So we have everyone commit to something, including the scum. This theory however is not compromised in any fashion by Pine telling me what he thinks my alignment is or by telling me he did not investigate me. There is serious risk involved for scum telling the truth or lying, even if Pine admits he did not investigate me. So even if I were scum, it'd be fine to let me pick either alignment safely because all that matters is THAT I picked an ethic.

[Junpei]

wonder where junpei is.

What's this? Fear mongering hours after I don't post late at night?

I'm Chaotic; Pine has no useful investigation now.

Need to think about our next move... and make a chart of ethics.

[Junpei]

Tammy: The whole reason I held out on saying my ethic was because I wanted Pine to incorrectly guess it. If he had done that, he'd be confirmed scum to me. When he claimed no investigation, I had no more reason to hold out.

Oversoul's claim was initially very compelling to me and after some thought I had changed my mind.

[Junpei]

erm, I thought we had vetoed this plan...

We did, but so many people have claimed that at this point we might as well pull the trigger.