A Dance with Dragons Mafia: A New Dawn!

[Jal]

@Dolorous Edd

: I don't understand where your votes are coming from.

Your sudden unvote for Starbuck and vote for Sal in post 214, for example. It took me quite awhile going through the thread looking for any recent Sal posts you were referring to. You're telling me that given your level of participation in this thread along with other suspect contributors whoch you underlined in Benmage's town/scum post, your legitimate next-best vote was Sal? I don't buy it.

Your re-vote for Starbuck indicates your unvote from earlier was due to you thinking that she's town. What made you start thinking she's town?

I'd like to know your own thoughts on the people you underlined in 212 also. What category would you put them in?

@BB:

I really couldn't get a could gauge on Sal's alignment with his wall post. What about it seem town enough to make him go from obv scum to town in your eyes?

Meanwhile, I'd like to see Starbuck post without being on the defensive constantly, or at the very least give us some content while doing so. Hasdgfas strikes me as town along with Benmage a long ways after. There's just something off about Tyene's posts I can't quite pinpoint.

VOTE: Dorlorous Edd

[Jal]

He used his brain while writing it

Having played a game with Sal, I honestly doubt that still.

Is brainless posting scum-Sal specific?

Aww, I don't even get a "hi" after all we've been through (Newbie 1237!!)

In any case, I voted Sal because I looked up at the VC and saw a decent wagon that I can add some pressure to. Plus I wanted Sal to contribute more.

About my unvote of Star, I thought she was genuinely confused when she said we should pick scum to target other scum or something like that which was just weird, but then it all just felt off when her idea didn't make sense at all, and I can't see where she's coming from.

You were scum and killed me N1. What didja expect?

All right. Far enough.

What are your thoughts on Minimum and that wagon?

On a side note, I feel like I'm missing out on the meta Minimum goodness.

[Jal]

Time to try and get myself back into this.

I've played once briefly with Hyperion before and he came across as a very scummy player even though he was town. I can

kinda

see his thought process behind his BBmolla vote in post 298, but I can't quite tell if that's just him being willfully dense or not. He strikes me as a player you have to "wait and see" to find his proper alignment.

I'm getting slight scum vibes from Snow mostly due to post 194 wherein he talks about scum not killing Jon Snow if we send them to the wall. Especially when he asks "What do you think?" It feels like a callback to Dolorous Edd's post 14 which someone called a town-tell not much sooner. I know someone said Snow's over-thinking of the flavor is a town-tell of sorts, but I just don't think his post seemed completely genuine.

@Snow

: Who do you think is scummy?

@Plums Yo Mamma:

Which one of you are at the helm in your recent posts? What are your thoughts on SnowStorm?

@Shadow

: I really don't see much content from you, except mainly you talking about yourself. What are your thoughts on some of the bigger wagons in the game so far?

@Dorlous Edd:

Have you yet answered the question at all regarding your thoughts on Minimum and that wagon? I know Pandora asked you earlier, but your only reply was,

No, but neither do you seem like you have an opinion for why you're voting them.

Which, other than expressing nothing of value, you just deflected the question back at them. I also see you didn't underline Benmage putting Minimum in the scum category, which I assume to mean you didn't necessarily disagree with his placement of Minimum there at that time. So what are your thoughts - or am I just missing this?

VOTE: SnowStorm

Choose: Dolorous Edd

Where did Starbucko go?

[Jal]

We'll see, Plums. I think I'd prefer a Sal wagon if I chose my pet-lynch. Old games, old games.

@SnowStorm

Of all the people voting me I think you presented one of the worst reasons. Why would I (or anyone in my position) as scum, make that post?

I don't have any scum reads atm, as I said, I need to re-read. But I do have some bad feelings about Minimum and now about you.

Why scum would make that post:

"Especially when he asks "What do you think?" It feels like a callback to Dolorous Edd's post 14 which someone called a town-tell not much sooner."

To use a phrase that someone already declared was a town-tell of sorts and hopefully apply said tell to work for themselves. Helpful when a bandwagon is starting on someone, no?

Now then, is my post really one of the worst reasonings presented? Tsk. I thought I was

at the very least

ahead of the people getting on you for not saying hi or being too serious at the beginning.

Maybe instead of writing walls explaining how you don't have any scum reads or that you need to reread, you should do just go ahead on the rereading bit and come back to us.

Hey Jal, what are YOUR thoughts on Minimum? You keep asking that to D.Edd but you never expressed any thoughts on Minimum yourself.

Hmm, my gut currently leans to the townier side of things. I'd like to see Minimum without all the pressure, though.

By the way, asking the question (again) yourself isn't going to help you gain any town cred.

@Minimum

: I'd actually prefer to see more bitchiness and self-pitying instead of telling us how you could have/were going to be moreso. Being a bitch and sore about yourself can come across as very genuine and sometimes town-like. Telling us about it, is not.

@Dolorous Edd

Thus, scum can easily fly through that, because just because they are being pressured by one or two or even five or six people, they can still easily wiggle out of it, esp by lurking or something. For example right now (and I know he didn’t do this on purpose, but just an example), when Hyper went on V/LA or whatever, and got replaced and stuff, he significantly lowered the suspicion on him, because a) It’s really pointless to create pressure when someone isn’t here to respond to it and b) People just start losing that passion, that drive, when someone isn’t posting, interacting, etc.

How and where do you notice that the suspicion on Hyperion was lowered significantly when he went on V/LA? He actually

gained

a vote after he declared V/LA and when his replacement came in.

I seem to be better at evaluating the events surrounding Min

You say this, but I haven't see this evaluation in-game.

[Jal]

Mina criticized a few players in particular, but you're implying she's throwing her hands up in the air and walking away, when this is not what is happening.

Never got the impression that's what Green meant. At all.

There was kind of an "all you guys suck" feel to at least one of Mina's posts (641), although it was more in tone than what was actually said. I wouldn't call it exaggerated though. Well, the guaranteed lynch stuff is certainly an exaggeration. I'd more appropriately call Min's post,

refined

.

I don't get this. You were criticizing me for my lynch/choosing theory (that is, you pick a good player who is a scumread to get Chosen and Lynch the chaff) but now seem to have a similar logic. What is the problem with Post 247, then?

They weren't criticizing you on your theory. In fact, I believe they're saying you aren't following it. Calling Minimum a "bad lynch" threw a lot of people off. People are taking this to mean you didn't think Minimum is a strong enough (or

even

a) candidate to be lynched today, and if they're not scummy enough to lynch, why choose them? The whole "pick a better player to choose with a decent chance of flipping scum" doesn't even register at that point.

However, it certainly doesn't help that later in post 374 you implied that you chose Min because you don't have as strong as a scum read them.

[Jal]

It doesn't help that Tyene barely interacted or said much of anything about Minimum prior to choosing them.

@Tyene, I'd take this opportunity to full explain what you meant by choosing Minimum instead of telling players to go back and read. Also, what about Minimum originally made them appear scummy to you that lead to your choosing?

[Jal]

Dealing with some work drama the past two days. Expect a reply within 5-6 hours from now.

[Jal]

I actually started on these posts about 2-3 days ago but I haven't had a lot of time to finish them, even now but I need to push myself to get content out. I know Snowstorm got outed as a mason, but things need to be answered:

@SnowStorm

:

I don't like this post. I hate your tone. You think I'm scum because I said "what do you think?", which someone had declared to be a town tell earlier, thus making it a scum-tell for anyone who said it after. That makes perfect sense . (See Tyene, some people do believe scum = stupid.)

Except, I never said or implied that the question becomes a scum tell after some person called it a town tell for Edd.

You

just did though. I made it clear: It was the timing of the question in relation to when the person pointed out at it being a probable town-tell. I also gave more reasoning in my original post as to why I think that particular of yours post is scummy.

Don't try and twist my answer regarding:

"

Why would I (or anyone in my position) as scum, make that post?"

. . .into some black and white shit that it's not. Also, where in any of my posts did I imply you're stupid scum? Stop being dramatic.

Yeah, that's what I said. I can understand why someone like Regfan (who has played with me) would think I had an odd start, it's not a bad reason, especially for the start of the game. Do you think that reason was worse than yours? You're calling someone else's reasons to vote me bad, yet, it's clear that your intention is to make me look bad. Because you never really brought that up until now. So what's your point?

No, I didn't call someone's vote on you bad. I was being snarky regarding your over-exaggeration.

And you're mistaken. My intention is to not make you look bad. My intention is to try and find scum. I don't need to make you look bad when you do things that make you look bad in the first place.

So my questions are not any relevant because I'm just trying to win some town cred? Seriously? According to you I shouldn't even bother asking any questions, because I'm not getting town cred for them. You don't think for a second that I ask questions to help me get some reads? WTF was the point in saying that? That whole post was about you antagonizing me. So you're either scum or you're a pretty confident townie, but then why haven't you tried to convince everyone else of my guiltiness, why do you only have one crappy argument against me?

I am noticing a theme here SnowStorm. You exaggerate.

I didn't say you shouldn't bother asking questions because you're not getting town cred from them. I was referring only to you asking about the read on Min to Edd (although I don't think I made this clear). Even then, it doesn't imply that. I don't like it though when you take a question I've asked and repeat it though while not asking or contributing much else along with it. What is your own purpose for asking Edd about Minimum?

You didn't really say how or why I'm scummy in any of that post. You just pointed out a bunch of things you just don't like. You think I am antagonizing you - but how does that make me scum, exactly?

Also, where in your reread did those bad feelings for Minimum go?

[Jal]

@Dolorous Edd

:

Jal is totally scum. Seriously. No jokes. Go ISO him in Newbie 1237 and go look at this. In 1237 he was so town it hurt by like mid-day1. His overall tone and everything feels so off this time

I think it was Reg who says he thinks I play the same as I did in Newbie 1237, but I don't think so.

I wasn't too shabby my first game. However, if you're going to play the meta card, try basing it on more than one game, and not only my town games either. I generally don't always come across as obvtown in my games, including this one. I think I have about 5 completed town games. Out of them:

Open 413: I was lynched D1 with only one scum hopping on my wagon towards the end of the day.

Newbie 1245: Garnered a few votes at the end of D1, becoming one of the top bandwagons. At the end of the day, it was the bandwagon on me vs the bandwagon I started on scum. If it weren't for the cop choosing the appropriate bandwagon which tipped the balance in my favour, I could have easily been lynched. Night killed immediately after that flip, though.

Open 410: I was suspected a good chunk of D1 especially after Kondi made an entire list of probable scum team combinations, and I was on most of them listed. Was brought into lylo with the other town player suspecting me.

410 is probably the best game to look at since it started in May and just ended recently. I think it gives a good overview of how I've changed and adjusted my play style over a period of time.

Here's a scum game of mine. Bonus town meta of Sal also: Open 422.

Plus his Snowstorm vote is crap. In the same post where he votes, he simply says that he is getting "slight scum vibes" from Snowstorm and he doesn't think his posts are "completely" genuine. This kind of ambiguous statments feel forced as hell and he looks like he is trying to justify bandwagoning Snow.

Yes, I was getting slight scum vibes from that particular post and it didn't read as completely genuine. It's how I feel: so what? If you disagree with my explanation, especially my thoughts towards about the question he asked, then feel free to go right on ahead and do so instead of using quotes around my words like they mean anything.

I find it peculiar that you bring this up

now

though instead of when I initially made the post. It's not like I have made a lot of posts in this game either and there's two of you to sort through the game so I doubt you missed it.

You say you sometimes read what's going on and not really analyze it, but again, there are two of you and you have made comments regarding me and my low posting in the past hinting that I was on the scummy side of things with that Cerywn's Bible stuff. Which, I noticed, you posted not too long after I made my vote for SnowStorm. You said you referring to Jal, Sala, Plum, Mockingjay, Hyper and that due to our activity we would lean more towards scum. It also indicated at the time that you viewed me as flying "under the radar."

So not only was I

not

"leaning town," you didn't just look at the player list and go, "golly gee, who is this person and where have they been?" I've been getting the feeling for awhile now that you've been wanting to place a vote on me.

While we're here, answer my question on Hyperion I asked you previously. Also, please explain this:

Also, what I really caught about Jal that also gave me scum vibes is what I like to call post-justification. It's when someone votes for someone else, and then they start trying to justify that vote, instead of already having a justification when voting.

Because I made all the justification in my original vote for SnowStorm. Why do I get the utter feeling you're talking about my explanation regarding the scum motivation of what he said? I actually answer questions, Edd.

Meant to unvote,

UNVOTE:

[Jal]

Just a few things at the top of my head while I have some time:

- I'm going to believe Snow's claim. I've noticed there hasn't really been a lot of opposition to Snow's wagon, at least not

strong

opposition. Even if this game is multiball and Snow would have few teammates, I at least would except a decent counter-wagon or argument at the very least. Instead, Snow's wagon seems to have grown as a counter-wagon of its own. I don't think Snow's mason buddy should claim, at least not now. No point right now, unless the other is being ran up.

- I'm a bit skeptical of the "support" I got when a few votes got on me. Maybe it's because in many games I've had scum buddy up to me in many games and throw a town read at me (maybe it's because I'm one of those ones who'll defend a town read to hell and back) but it seemed odd, and I wouldn't be surprised if one of those individuals is scum.

- I need to re-read the last 9 pages more in-depth before I put a vote back down.

Benmage: When did Jal Shinori and Kortul's become the 3 people to vote between?

[Jal]

I've given up trying to fully catch-up to the weekday play. Makes me want to get my own hydra slave to do the work for me and make notes.

@Saporerint:

Jal votes for DE, which...well, it makes sense to me, but it seems at odds with the normative PoV.

What do you mean by this?

@Plessiezarus:

Doesn't seem impossible to us that Faraday would have given out a fake-claim like this (open question to anyone who's been in an Eddard Stark game: that's how fake-claims worked in past games, right?), so the "SnowStorm wouldn't have thought to fake claim Mason" defence doesn't seem that persuasive. But whatever -- presumably he'll die soon enough anyway.

Okay, I'm relatively new to closed or theme games here. I've read up safenames on the wiki, but I wasn't aware of mods giving out safe

role claims

. Is this common? What do you think of my point regarding how there wasn't a lot of real opposition to Snow's lynch?

I'm going to take the advice someone gave to another and just ISO the top wagons.

[Jal]

I actually don't find Saporerint's posts to make the slot look any more townie than Sal, and actually seems more scummy to me. Most of it is just notes, and notes that just don't really tell much of anything at all. Even then, there's just something that throws me off about them. She has already admitted that she's at least partially read parts of the thread (at least regarding to Snow and Green's mason claim) and I feel like her reads reflects on her knowing the outcome of some things before actually writing down notes.

She says she found SnowStorm town, but doesn't really comment on any of the posts or votes concerning the wagon - and it was quite a big wagon at some point. I'd think she'd at least have a comment to make such as she did concerning the Bvoight wagon.

Apparently, I look likely scum some time between 991 and 1033 where I don't even post. I would think perhaps Saporerint actually looked at DE's Newbie 1237 and maybe agreed with his assessment, but saying "DE's scumtell claim" makes me think she hadn't. So this just comes out of nowhere without many written notes even about me, except a note about how I voted DE out of the norm pov.

Actually, that note in particular (top of 1264) just comes out of pretty much nowhere, and indicates "pre-reading" prior to actually making the notes (they aren't stream of conscious). I later go into the ambivalent pile which strikes of as strange considering the above statement, although given my position I'm probably just riding the edge.

Gives a short version of his last reads which reports Kortul as town now, although none of the notes actually indicates this feeling beyond Kortul's vote for Bvoight being least bad among a set of votes.

The Sal slot was coasting between VI and just nothing. Although, there's a very smart part of me that thinks Sal saw Umbrage's thread in the mafia forum and just failed at listing reads to look townie.

@Saporerint

:

That's my note on your first post. You voted for DE at a time when most were calling him town. It stuck out to me both for that reason and because earlier I had been surprised DE hadn't gotten more scrutiny.

But what about it?
Are your reads in order of strength?

Just to comment. I didn't do some comprehensive self-meta thing. I put down links to both my town and scum games to show and give a better understanding of my town meta because I feel like its evolved beyond my first game on the site. Also, DE didn't post a scum-meta. He posted town-meta.

@Minimum

There's a 75% chance I won't be riding the Shadow gravy train today. Apologies.

More later today and will make vote. Have time off with the holiday.

Unchoose:

[Jal]

*Small part of me

[Jal]

No one is ever happy with the end of the day lynch. I've barely seen a case in my own games where we've gone to lynch scum D1 before and everyone was on board - usually it's a compromise lynch. Everyone just gets antsy even when they think they do have scum at the end of the day. Get over it.

We accidentally lynch or choose town today? It's one or two people out of 28. I assure you, the world won't end tomorrow and the game is not totally lost. Look at the wagons, review the game day (good lord), do your PR thang, and see who looks like scum.

---

DLC's slot leans a bit town. redFF coming back after awhile, speaking only of Starbuck briefly and then replacing the game just struck me as town. I think scum would be a lot more mindful of what they'd say.

I can't get a read on Feysal. Tried reading meta.

Makes reads which stick to Starbuck and lists only two other scum which are two of the most viable wagons today. Strikes me as both odd and playing safe. Would prefer over DCL.

Choose: Feysal

I looked up Bvoight but I'm not entirely convinced he's scum.

I have to go do stuff, so I'll get more into this later. I'll respond to some things later.

Notes

:
- Still think Tyene is scum.
- Plum is probably scum too, based mostly on meta with Nacho.
- Also, pretty much almost every person Kortul looks up is scum.

[Jal]

@DCL:

Unfortunately, you're the Plain Jayne non-PR slot people were hoping for.

Give us reads that don't involve how others are distancing themselves from your wagon. Town or scum, it can be helpful down the road.

@Jal - your words about compromises and lynches are true, and you even apply this to your CHOOSE vote. Why do you hesitate to apply this to your vote in the VOTE section for several days?

I haven't looked into everyone yet, whereas I have looked into DCL and Feysal.

Guys, there's no reason for Stefan to be apparently soft claiming a stupid Aegon aligned character from his 2nd post to use later to claim.

Stefan, please just be clear and straight forward.

[Jal]

No, Mina just speaks with common fucking sense.

@DCL

: I get it. I've been there. What's your end of day reads though?

@Pandora:

He killed his father, probably wants to kill his siblings, trying to reach Dany (the enemy), etc. His actions in this book aren't exactly Lannister aligned.

Although, if I had to choose an appropriate alignment for him, I'd probably pick third right now. Tyrion is doing his own thang.

[Jal]

I guess there is the possibility Stefan is trying to alert other unknown scum of who he is due to what BBmolla said earlier.

P-Edit: All right, Stefan.

[Jal]

That would be less multiball and something else.

[Jal]

I think Stef is town.
I think Edd is town and believes in what he is saying.
Don't quite believe in Bv's claim on a personal level either.

Unfortunately, I don't think Bvoight's wagon is happening, especially with the hop-off of Pandora. Even with that claim, people don't like to take out their PRs D1. I am also not a fan of nolynching today.

VOTE: StefanB

[Jal]

This is why we lynch people.

To get reactions like Tyene freaking out.

[Jal]

Edd? Are you still around?

[Jal]

Wrong Edd!

[Jal]

A few things straight off.

1. There's definitely at least two factions of mafia given what BBmolla said earlier and that fact DCL flipped Stannis aligned. Stannis has few supporters, so there is definitely a really small pool of Stannis aligned left. Maybe, what? 2?

2. Given that DCL was a choose target, he essentially became a vengeful mafia member. There is a good chance, given near the end of D1, that a Stannis aligned individual hopped on-board that choose as there was certainly at least a gain to be had with DCL's death and the tables weren't changing back to Feysal. Also, DCL was only a goon.

Do not

be surprised if

all

Stannis-aligned individuals were on that bandwagon given the role of the chosen.

3. There is a chance that the masons were

both

wiped out by the Stannis-aligned due to a) They were either confirmed town

and/or

B) There was also a good chance they may have been another scum faction.

I have to go eat some orange chicken and I'll reply to people then. Just wanted to get some thoughts off first.

[Jal]

Oh also, I think we need to be wary of VT claims.

I don't think anyone wasn't before. Why wouldn't you be?

@Edd

: You really make me go back and forth with you. I can't figure out any rationality in your thought-process and your conclusions don't make sense.

After all this however, he simply “sheeps” me and chooses Jal, even though he has expressed slight scum reads on others, and he expressed no scum read at all for Jal. And in the tiers he posts in 804:

He lists Jal as a strong scum read. There is no way in he there can simply be a strong scum read based on sheeping someone else. Note, while he also mentions that he doesn’t like Benmage, Benmage doesn’t appear at all in the tiers (this is probably a plus in Benmage’s favor, seeing as DCL would’ve prob made sure he put him in the tiers if he mentioned him). Neither Tyene, who he also expresses scumread on. But Jal is there?

What you have here, are reasons why

DCL

is scum.

Frankly, there's no reason for scum-DCL to come into the thread, point fingers at multiple people, and then voted his lovable scum buddy Jal whom he said nothing about prior in his little reads.

Instead, when he talks about Tyene and Benmage, he doesn't indicate that they're scum, just that they either did something odd or something he didn't like and proceeds to not put them anywhere, which is odd itself. DCL doesn't give or say much about either of us three or Feysal probably because he had trouble trying to find something scummy whatsoever, which is sometimes hard for scum to do.

Given that Tyene and Benmage were perceived town by most people D1, there's the possibility given DCL's self-conscious behavior, one of them may be scum. He may have felt one of them was perceived as far scummier than they actually were. Eh, there's also the possibility he was trying to attack big-time universal town reads (as he later on tried to do with Starkgirl and Reggie) to hopefully knock them down a peg. So I wouldn't stake too much on this until after some flips.

I don't see where he listed me as a strong scum read though, only that he voted for me because he was sheeping you.

This really makes Jal a likely partner. It’s the type of interaction that I would expect a scum who just came in the game to do. It is that weird combination of pushing on someone and saying they are scum, but knowing they are no where near a lynch, so it’s really a “safe-push” meant for you to look good. Not that it seems he put much effort in it though, because I really don’t consider saying “sheeping Player X” as really much effort.

He was self-conscious enough to think he was joining

two

of the biggest bandwagons, when the bandwagon on me had only three persons including him. There were 21 posts between SnowStorm's vote for me and DCL's vote which happened in a time period of 3 hours and at the time there were no protests. The protests

then

came after vote and then people pointed out how yours was shitty too. It certainly did

not

look like the bandwagon on me was "safe" and wouldn't be going places. The fact that he was self-conscious about it and commented it in such a manner that got him chosen in the first place, indicates he actually thought it was possibly going somewhere.

However, I do have time to look at Jal’s POV. Post 1395, Jal chooses Feysal over DCL. At the time, Feysal was at 8 and DCL was at 12, so it was pretty close, and could’ve still swung any way. This is what Jal had to say about DCL:
In post 1395, Jal wrote:
DLC's slot leans a bit town. redFF coming back after awhile, speaking only of Starbuck briefly and then replacing the game just struck me as town. I think scum would be a lot more mindful of what they'd say.

Which is pretty much crap.

He also hadn’t mentioned the redff/DCL spot at all before, making it convenient for him to come at any time and drop a read one way or another on the slot without having something before that he has to continue on.

In what exact way was my reasoning crap pre-flip? You thought DCL was fucking town most of the game, finally chose him later saying you were convinced, and then later went on to read him as null even though you had a fucking scum read on Feysal. This from the same person who said we should choose our second strongest scum read. Give me a fucking break.

You are only calling it crap given our knowledge of the flip

now

. Yeah, unfortunately I don't have knowledge of who is actually scum prior a flip.

Also, for someone who apparently went through my ISO, you would have seen

I'm going to take the advice someone gave to another and just ISO the top wagons.

Which is why I went through and gave a read on both him and Feysal at the time. There's 28 people in the game. Guess how many people I have yet to mention before?

I made my reasoning clear why I chose Feysal, indicating I thought his two scum reads aside from Starbuck were the top wagons of the day which seemed odd and "safe" and given my that I thought DCL was town, I voted for Feysal based on this and being more of an unknown. Do you disagree with that reasoning?

You list Feysal as a townread now, where on Monday you had him as scum. Given the flips for the day and acknowledgement that this game is probably multiball, where did your scum read on Feysal go?

Same goes with Starbuck. When and how did she become a townread after saying shit all, then become a potential third party after saying shit all?

My only regret yesterday, was throwing a vote on Stefan at the end of the day, because he was retardedly town at the end of the day and people were throwing votes on him for shit reasoning regarding his claim.

[Jal]

HEY DOLOROUS EDD/ARTHUR. I MADE A BIG ASS POST DIRECTED ALMOST ENTIRELY TOWARDS YOU IN POST 1720 WHICH CONTAINED QUESTIONS. I KNOW YOU JUST READILY SEEM TO MISS THINGS LIKE THAT, SO I AM POSTING THE LINK FOR YOUR CONVENIENCE. YOU ARE WELCOME.

DCLXVI wasn't killed at the end of the day, folks. He was chosen. He died at NIGHT. Go read the mechanic. He had a chance to discuss things with his team even if they only have night-talk (which IIRC Faraday prefers to do over daytalk, but I might be wrong).

Lyanna and D. Edd have pretty good towntells in not realizing this (since DCLXVI's team obviously did). Pit it's people I already had townreads on.

It shows they probably aren't Stannis-aligned.

DCLXVI is of Stannis Faction. Those who've read the book, was it the main faction against Llanister alliance? Also, since BBmola "recieved a letter from someone, it says that Aegon Targaryen's forces are split up so that some do not know who the others are." - was Aegon Targaryen in any way connected with a Stannis Faction?

They are opposite factions. They do not/should not get along in the books.

In post 1395, Jal wrote:
- Plum is probably scum too, based mostly on meta with Nacho.
- Also, pretty much almost every person Kortul looks up is scum.

1. Why?
2. Who?

1. Because of meta with Nacho.
2. People Kortul claimed he ISO'd that turned up scum upon review: Snowstorm (scum), Salamance (scum), Shadow (scum), Greenknight (scum), DCL (Scum), StefanB (scum)

Town: Feysal, Bvoight (not quite town read though).

The observation tickled me as being scummy, but to be honest I don't have really have a read on Kortul today. He's kinda been in the background in my mind.

@Lyanna

Jal spent most of yesterday without a vote or a choose out there. I defended their lack of vote to edd as they said they needed to iso a few people and then would vote, but still they did not vote until deadline. The timing of their choose is suspect as well. In Post 1391 is a vote count with feysal at 8 choose votes and dcl with 12 votes. In Post 1395 jal says that dcl looks town and that she can't get a read on feysal so would prefer him.

I voted for Edd in my first post. In my third post I changed Edd to my Choose (to line up with the bigger wagons) and voted Snow.

I had no choose for approximately 3 hours after taking it off Edd. So other than my first two posts and about 3 hours on Sept 3 - how is that going without a choose for most of the day?

You have more of a case with with my vote, though which I admit I didn't put down on anyone for a long awhile

towards the end of the day

. Mostly because the wagon I actually wanted (Sap) didn't look like it would go anywhere and I hadn't at the time gone through and looked at everyone I wanted to. Still hadn't looked at the Stefan ISO at the end of the day, actually. Except to see his claim and the stupid references to Tyrion some claimed.

When did you "defend" my lack of vote to Edd? I tried looking at your ISO, but Ctrl-F can only go so far. Also, how would that relevant to anything? If you did defend it - so what?

How was the timing of my choose choice suspect? You just listed how many votes were on each when I voted, but you fail to explain why it is suspect. Actually, you just listed that information with nothing corresponding to it.

[Jal]

@Kortul

:

Jal, so why did you decide to ISO choose wagons, where reaching 15 votes wasn't necessary, over ISO-ing vote wagons, where your vote were more important?

At the time I thought choose votes had to be locked in order to count prior to a lynch going through, so my choose was more important for me to get down first before a lynch. Realized I was wrong sometime right before DCL was locked in, but it didn't matter much. I did ISO some of the largest votes, which is indicated by my big "Sap is scummy" post post 1285, and indicated I wasn't entirely onboard with scum-Bvoight.

Actually, the only reason I really even thought Bvoight could be scum was due to Benmage's heroic post 1241 wherein he either shows how people on Bvoight's wagon are scummy or their intentions are misplaced in an attempt to gain momentum for the Shadow wagon. I've seen scum pull-out all the cards for a scum buddy before. At the time, the Sap wagon was also relatively large, but he doesn't do the same call-out to them or any on that bandwagon. If Bvoight flips scum, Benmage jumps to the high-end of my scum list.

@Tyene

:

Okay, I might be dense or something, but why do we want to preserve Shinori until tomorrow via jailing? Wouldn't it be a better idea for him to claim his result now and then we act on his results tomorrow?

It just seems a waste of a mechanic that might help us avoid a night-kill, because if we decide on it in public, scum will just kill someone else. And for what? Shinori reads townish, and that "I have something important to talk about" seemed townish as well, but frankly if the alternative is for him to be the jail target, I'd just rather he outed his info now and the jailing be kept private.

Why

wouldn't we

want to preserve Shinori either way if we believe his claims, results or not? Really, though. This is just assuming people will follow through.

[Jal]

That's not really an answer.

Actually, it is an answer. Just not the type of answer you're apparently looking for. So what

are

you looking for?

Nacho has usually been much more reserved in games I've been with him in.

[Jal]

@Zdenek

:

Ideally, descriptions of his play as town and scum, and why his play here is closer to his scum play.

Have not played scum with him, and I think he's playing differently than what I'm used to seeing him (I'm used to him being more reserved) as town. That is the best way I can put it. He usually seems a bit more. . . methodical.

I have watched a scum game of his, though. Open 436 https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=22927 where he seems more emotionally driven, which seems similar to how I feel he is playing here. That is why I asked Plum who wrote the one time, because I don't know how Plum writes and that didn't seem very-Nacho-like to me.

@Kortul

:

Jal, your presentation of several of my reads is not even close. Vote does not equal scum read, and you yourself said good words about compromises on day 1. If it wasn't intentional and you were just skimming at that moment and all of this is from memory, then take another look. And i have two questions.

So, which do you think are not presented accurately?

Here's the deal Kortul. Almost everyone you looked up you either voted or chose. Sometimes you didn't initially say they were scum when voting or choose in, I give you that, but sometimes you would reinforce the idea that you actually really did they were scum all along (your Shadow choose). I'll give you Greenknight though. Why did you choose him?

In the post 1285, that you mentioned, Sapo was scummy for you (even more then his predecessor), you commented that "There's a 75% chance I won't be riding the Shadow gravy train today. Apologies.", and you didn't give your opinion on bvoigt, and their wagons were close (6, 8, 8). You suspected Benmage of pulling people towards Shadow wagon, and thought that Sapo is scum, made a big post of it, isn't it a perfect time for a push and vote placement?

And a second question. Is Saporeint still you scum read? Because after that big post you forgot him for the rest of the day 1 and day 2.

1. I ISO'd Sapo, gave my thoughts, asked questions, wanted to see any reactions and answers. I then wanted to ISO more people before actually putting down a vote. Either way, part of me thought it would be useless anyhow if I did vote due to some strong town reads people were getting from him at the time.

I mentioned Shadow because I believe Min posted about him while I was writing. I already had formed an opinion of Shadow by then anyway, whereas someone like Bvoight hadn't posted much and I hadn't noticed him.

I hadn't looked up Bvoight yet I believe. So why would I mention him?

I forgot about the Benmage stuff way later on to the point it didn't matter, which is why I wanted to bring it up now. However, I was only focusing on Sapo when I made that post, so Benmage's recent superman of Bvoight wasn't of concern then.

By the way, I wanted your opinion about what I said regarding Benmage and his pulling off Bvoigt's wagon. What are your thoughts?

2. I do think Sapo is still scummy. I said what I've wanted to say D1. Don't give a crap about the pm/qt thing, as it doesn't change my opinion of them. I'll tell you if I change my mind to otherwise.

@Lyanna

:

How many games are you basing the meta read on?

Two finished ones. He was a replacement for both.

Newbie 1239 and Newbie 1245.

[Jal]

I...don't have a case. I was merely noting your voting/choosing patterns along with Feysal's because CDL listed you both as scum. Considering, as I said, he listed one of his partners as scum in the scum game he provided it could point to a pattern as some people do feel the need to list one of their partners as scum and make sure to mention them. And, yes even though you want to argue against it, some scum also feel the need to give their partner a vote early in the game/soon after replacing in. Your arguing that he wouldn't irrelevant if it's a type of behavior that he engages in. It's not an exact science and is why I asked if anyone had any experience with scum DLC before.

For the rest, why am I having to spell out the obvious?

1. I didn't defend you; I was mistaken. I defended Mockinjaye for not voting when Edd was saying it was suspicious. So, I'm not a hypocrite. Yay! I think it's quite obvious that if I'm saying that an action is suspicious now. It's an acknowledgement of a previous stance that (I thought) I was reversing.

2. This one is even more surprising that you need spelled out. Feysal was the only other available wagon counter to DCL. Feysal had 8 votes and DCL had 12. You added a vote to the Feysal wagon. Well now that DCL flipped scum, it looks like you tried to throw momentum onto the counter wagon. This doesn't need to be explained as it's self explanatory. It's like when Zdenek brought up a post of mine and said if bvoigt flips scum then it would weaken the town read on me. I knew exactly what he meant because it looks like I avoided the bvoigt wagon and gave him a weak distancing read. I didn't have to ask for clarification because I knew and answered directly for what I did, and since you've played mafia before I have to believe that you would already know this bit about counterwagons so I'm really not following on why you needed it explained.

More of a case, meaning, you have more of a point to make.

For the rest of your post, don't try to turn this back on me. Spell it out for me, eh?

I had to make you aware of your mistake. Also, I never called you a hypocrite or even insinuated it, so stop that bullshit now. Yeah, when you say stuff which isn't true, expect to be both asked and called out about it. Get over it. Your over-defensiveness of having me point this out to you is scummy as shit. The other problem is, it's that you feel a need to almost somehow distance yourself from me. There's no reason, at all, to bring up how tried to defend me to Edd even though you're wrong.

This

is odd and I don't like it one bit.

For the next part, I'll ask this: Other than choosing Feysal towards the end of the day, in what way would you say I was actively trying to get momentum for his lynch instead of DCL?

Also, did you go back through and reread the part where I said DCL leans town, or did you ISO me?

[Jal]

Also, I've sent in my Jailkeep. Will say more stuff later.

[Jal]

All right, I just give up. In a large group, I find my success rate for finding someone's alignment increases when I go back-and-forth with someone for whom I find scummy. I see how they characterize their argument, how they defend themselves, or if they're oddly defending someone else in their argument with me. Especially with a game of this size, it's hard to keep up with everyone so I like to focus on a few at a time. Not like anything interesting has happened today either. Bvoigt got caught in a lie that everyone didn't believe at the end of D1? Great. Sap fucked up? Color me surprised if they're scum considering yesterday. Dolorous Edd making bad arguments and ignoring everyone outside of his bubble? Check mark.

I've said what I want to say about DCL scum. Those Stannis-aligned are few. There's a decent chance all Stannis scum were on his bandwagon at least at the very end given the a) Inevitability b) The vengeful mechanic c) He was only a goon. It really just comes down to the experience and skill of Stannis-aligned. Other than Edd's sorry-ass attempts to call DCL town, there weren't a lot of people really sticking out their necks to defend DCL. I'm going to guess at the very least lot of distancing was involved or non-mentioning when the votes started accumulating, and mainly by DCL himself.

DCL made a list of opinions of people on his wagon, in post 1374. He didn't include everyone. There's also a decent chance

a

scum is listed here as

either

a scum or town read. His read on Pandora reads more like buddying than anything else, though.

I want to see what alignment Bvoigt flips before saying or doing much more about him and that bandwagon.

I've decided to jail someone who is a town read but also someone I think is one of the "Obv Townies" that may be scum. If you only look at what they say, they look townie.

How

they say things and the motivation behind their words are unclear. I feel like they are trying to find underlying scummy things that just may not exist.

Also, I'm not from westeros (the site).

[Jal]

This sort of generalization (Stannis are in this group) is not useful. Useful is saying who in that group you actually think is Stannis.

Jal wrote:
Also, I'm not from westeros (the site).


Have you played mafia before mafiascum.net? If so, where/how long?

It all comes down to: I don't know. I don't know who is scum with DCL. However, I think that list DCL made of his bandwagon may include Stannis-aligned, and probably not Pandora. That's the best I've got right now. Now then, what are your thoughts about the actual content of what I've said?

I played a little on EM (a week) before getting into my first Mafiascum game.

@Tyene: They're just trying to say as little as possible about anything. See DCL D1 when I asked for his reads and Bvoigt D2.

[Jal]

I did consider the relationships of some suspects. I agree that Starbuck is very unlikely to be Stannis aligned due to being attacked by redFF, however I can easily see her as partner to bvoigt, after the way bvoigt consistently defended her yesterday. At the time it was fairly safe to do, since few people suspected Starbuck at all, mostly just me and Staeg. In fact, Staeg attacking Starbuck for not name claiming and bvoigt defending her points to them not being a team. I believe Staeg to be the one that does not fit.

Your point regarding Staeg relies a lot on Starbuck being scum in this scenario.

[Jal]

Okay people need to be more clear.

I'm fine with BVO lynch, however if Bvo flips town we look at staeg and shadows because of weird stuff i got in my pm last night.

What were you told in your PM?

Explain what you meant by this:

No I think I actually have info that potentially pegs someone as scum along with BVO. It could implicate bvo as town though but it's also something I don't fele at liberty to discuss because it could just be more beneficial to scum than town.

--

Because he was a person that I'd trust with an inno if town and want deadeadead if scum.

What?

So are Reg and Min not Frey's then?

I'm leaning towards what MOI is saying at the moment.

[Jal]

Kortul makes a really good point in post 2031.

I have a question to those familiar with a book - was Stannis faction there strong? It isn't related to today discussion, just noticed something while doing ISO's, and the answer to my question may be relevant for a better read.

No, not really strong.

[Jal]

@Staeg

, I'm having a hard time buying why you wouldn't legitimately investigate one of the claimed masons. There was a general consensus at the end of D1 that due to the dubious nature of of the mason claims that they probably wouldn't be killed until later on (which didn't hold true).

Regardless

of whether you interpreted their claim as "oh they may be kids, so I dunno if they really were bad or not!" I would figure that you'd want to check out their claims,

to see if they were actually fake claiming or not

especially since apparently one or both were scum reads to you once upon a time. That's two potential scums you could have had, vs an investigation of Regfan which would prove nothing at the time.

Instead, your investigation choices look more similar to whom scum would want to check out: Regfan being a big town read D1 and Minimum a big question mark in general.

You also go back and forth on your feelings about the Freys and their town status. You're still trying to throw around the possibility that maybe Freys (older ones) could be scum in post 2036 and yet partly state your scum read on Regfan due to your role. Irksome.

VOTE: Staeg

[Jal]

Count me down to wanting to Godhand Plum, Minimum, or Benmage at this time.

[Jal]

I thought about that, Zdenek.

However, it was first Tyene who pointed out and lead the charge against Sapo D2.

[Jal]

We took our time yesterday to lynch guaranteed scum, and people aren't even quite sure on Staeg (the main bandwagon). Godhand is safe.

I'm more worried over a rushed Godhand. How do you propose we formally figure it out?

[Jal]

Feysal, if Staeg is scum it's doubtful he would have outed his real role.

Shinori just needs to come out fully with what he meant D2. I don't understand it either.

@Dolorous Edd: If you really wanted to duel me and think I'm for sure scum, why didn't you? Not making the day boring by all voting for Sapo doesn't really cut it since that's essentially what people did anyway with the hurt mechanic.

[Jal]

FFS I have to try and justify my actions now? Also, good job for totally missing everything even close to the usage of my role. Totally nice misrep.

"Not making the day boring by all voting for Sapo doesn't really cut it since that's essentially what people did anyway with the hurt mechanic." Orly? Obv it's going to be people jumping on him on the hurt mechanic. The point was for people to jump on him in a battle instead of simply wasting a lynch that gains no information. And now, people can choose better amongst the lesser suspicions. This is a team game. Instead of really putting myself in the position of deciding who to pick from the lower suspicions, and then having people simply pick Sapo in the lynch mechanic, do you not think it is much better for town and gains a lot more information if the obv target was taken out and then people can decide from the other suspicions?

Eduardo, I am not interested in your little diatribes. I am asking you a question on something you have not fully explained. Just straight-up give me an answer instead of giving me this accusatory word vomit. Perhaps I don't quite understand the mechanics of your role. I want you to explain it to me before going any further down this line of discussion.

I'll make it clear as to what I was trying to get at though.

Why aren't you voting for me? If I am scum, why aren't you doing much about it? You call me scum, but you really don't do very much about it other than arbitrarily defining actions of mine as being scummy. You say things here and there, but you don't really

push

it. You don't actively engage in trying to get me gone. I seem to be just "there."

Why? Please explain. Don't skim over this. Don't slip by this. You don't have some type of VIP pass of throwing thoughts into the air with no explanation. And no, you're not going to lurk the shit out of the thread and then come back here and snip on things here and there.

And how do you suspect Staeg? So you don't believe that is his real role. Do you believe he is fake-claiming? If so, how would he know Regfan/whoever weren't Freys? Do you think he has a similar role as scum (ex, role cop who investigated Regfan/whoever and found out they're not Frey's and modified his role a bit for a fake-claim?).

(Sorry for being a bit snarky, it's late at night).

There is nothing to explain with that question other than it's very unlikely Staeg as scum would claim his real role (by role I mainly meant character in regard to Kortul but I guess also role). Yes. I believe he at the very least has a similar role. I already said I am leaning to MoI's opinion in that he is probably a role cop of some sort.

[Jal]

@Staeg

See the previous post.

Getting a Frey result on them wouldn't confirm them as town

, and I thought they would get vigged/crosskilled/investigated/whathave you within two days.

It would confirm either one as a Frey though. There was a possibility of them lying by using Frey's as a town claim if they were scum.

@Kortul

:

@Jal, if Dolorus Edd were regular vig and just killed Sapo at night, would you question that decision? If yes, why? And if not, why do you question his duel decision?

I would ask why he chose Sapo regardless of anything if he were a regular vig. I already answered this in my response to Edd though. I am not necessarily questioning his choice of person. I believed Sapo was scum. I'm trying to get at why he isn't choosing to hurt/lynch/really go after me while saying I'm scum.

In regards to your question concerning mafia not knowing each other in other games - I don't know. A lot of things seem to hint towards it though. Sapo at the very least had insider information on another role.

@MoI:

This is very, very scummy. Dol Ed chose a wise target (self-confirmed Scum) with his ability. It basically saved Town a Day of lynching Sapo and allowed us to get an immediate flip. Questioning why he didn’t choose you as opposed to Sapo effectively is a soft attack on his scum-read on you.

Dear lord I don't give a shit if my question seems scummy. I don't ask things wondering WILL THIS LOOK SCUMMY? OH MAH IMAGE. Where have you been all game? I've barely been "soft attacking" his scum-read on me. I've been full on questioning and attacking him regarding it. And so what? See, I could maybe understand your concern if I was attacking a town read. When did attacking/questioning someone on their actions regarding a scum-read on you become scummy?

@Shin

:

The entire time I thought it made staeg more scummy.

You didn't know he was targeting Regfan though.

Why did you think Staeg conducting an investigation make him seem more scummy? Also, how did that further indicate Bvoigt might be town?

[Jal]

@MoI

:

It's scummy because you've chosen a scum-motivated attack. You have not given reason one that supports why his use of his ability on what is Self-Confirmed Scum as opposed to you is scummy. And the language you used "Why didn't you use it on me if you think I am scum" is specifically aimed at making him look like he's not being honest in his assessment of you as scum and ignores the realities of the game-state. I don't care if he is your scum-read. He's a Town read for me at this juncture and your attack on him is scummy.

What is scummy about his choice? Why is having multiple scum reads in a Multi-scum game scummy? Why do you think that being all 'outrageous' in your posting somehow makes you seem Town for 'not caring about image'?

Feel free to catch-up and read the rest of the thread to understand what I was getting at. Yeah, I think there's a possibility he's not being honest in his scum read towards me. It doesn't feel like he actually thinks I am scum. Glad we have you to keep us on the ball in that regard, though. Might have gotten confusing for everybody else skipping the walls.

Also, I never said that him having multiple scum reads in a multi-scum game is scummy. I never said or implied or even

tried

being "outrageous" somehow makes me town nor did I say that to make me seem town. That is only

you

trying to imply these things onto me. Why ask pointless questions which were never implicated? Get this nonsense out of here. If you're going to try to make up some things to paint me unnecessarily scummy, at least have it be based on

something

.

@Lyanna

:

Particularly statements like "not cutting it" was unnecessarily aggressive and seemed like she was keeping up the fight with him just for the sake of keeping up the fight with him. Then she comes back with "perhaps I don't understand the mechanics of your role". Perhaps you should inquire into the mechanics of the role before you start accusing him.

What exactly did I accuse Edd of, Lyanna?

This is what I am seeing.

Edd has been slowly trying to gun for me without much reason since D1 starting with Cerwin Bible followed by a crappy vote for me which he obviously took off when people pointed out how crap it was. Everything I can and ever will do will be scummy. His rationalization, at least concerning me doesn't make sense. He labeled me as scum and

then

found his reasons.

He takes three of his biggest scum reads and finds reasons for all three to be scum based on D2's jail choosings. Regardless of my actions yesterday, if I had followed through with his plan to jail Shinori I would have been scum bandwagoning. By not bandwagoning, I voted to jail someone who

he

personally perceived as probably not going to reach a majority (news to me since Pless was a big town read and people were telling Edd to buzz off for his Shinori plan). Apparently making me really scum.

He called to have me lynched next (today). He says he wanted to choose me to hurt so bad and now I am especially scum (wasn't I before?) due to my jail choice. Yet, he comes iin today to vote for Staeg. He doesn't really engage with me. He really doesn't do anything much at all with me except at points where it feels like he just wants to confirm with people why I am scum and what new made-up reasoning he's using to prolong that idea.

Get your "unnecessarily aggressive" crap out of here. Reread the thread and come back to me also. Or instead of standing on the sidelines today, just vote for me so we can

just make sure

what my alignment is because I am really sick of your "I DUNNO HOW I FEEL ABOUT THIS" shenanigans.

[Jal]

@MoI:

I want to change my Hand of God thing to be solely on Minimum.

[Jal]

Well, I do think he is probably town.

I'm mostly frustrated and surprised what he says actually gets anywhere.

[Jal]

Shinori definitely needs to be looked at tomorrow. He lurked the hell out of today without answering questions at the end. I'll look to see if he has any connections during the night. I can't figure out any scum motivation he'd have to out a role D2, though.

I think I am probably repeating some things, but my major questions about Staeg and Shinori have already been asked.

Vote: Staeg

I am also perplexed at Shinori. I don't get how Staeg's targeting Regfan made you think that bvoigt might be town, or how it made him and Shadow look scummy to you. What did Shadow and BVoigt even have to do with it? Could you explain your thought process?

The entire time I thought it made staeg more scummy.

According to his own role, he couldn't have known Staeg investigated Regfan.That also doesn't explains how he thought Staeg was scummy the entire time. Why would conducting an investigation look scummy?

No I think I actually have info that potentially pegs someone as scum along with BVO. It could implicate bvo as town though but it's also something I don't fele at liberty to discuss because it could just be more beneficial to scum than town.

How would being a follower actually peg anyone as scum this early in the game?

@Zdenek

: If Tyene hadn't have pushed Sapo, I feel that odd post wouldn't have gotten as far. She seems like the sort who would be smart enough to know how to twist the situation or Sapo around to not seem as bad. Heck, look what she did for Sal.

@Edd

, you are an idiot. Be gone. You can't make a logical conclusion if one was punched into your forehead. I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing, as someone else said. I'm arguing because you are an idiot.

Anyway, it's not uncommon for scum to keep vigs around when they think they'll misfire. You won't die as long as I'm on your chopping block (probably). Start to get worried

after

I'm gone or suspicion is cast off of me. Unless mockingjaywhoever is scum, which is not a bad possibility considering that horrible reasoning for voting Stefan in post 1464. Then you might be screwed.

[Jal]

Prod dodging until I have more time to read a few pages after lunch.

[Jal]

MoI was obviously killed because he was a threat. Firstly probably because he became a town leader D3. Secondly, he may have suspected someone big time as scum and could have easily pushed their lynch, which makes me wary of Minimum scum.

Sample size of 1 is meaningless.

Anxijay is scum because:
1) deliberate narrow focus (in multiball)
2) not being her obvtown self

What do you consider of her writing to be a deliberate narrow focus? I'm not seeing it, even if you include MockingJaye's posts.

I have Feysal down as null right now. Definitely worth keeping around at any rate; his alignment'll become obvious over time.

Feysal hasn't done much of anything beyond the first half of D1. He isn't obviously townie or scummy. Scum have also obviously been shooting for either PRs or major town reads. How do you think his alignment will become obvious overtime as the town whittles down leaving the scummy towns/nulls behind? At least enough that he is

definitely

worth keeping?

Jal, you spent some time questioning saporerint in this post yet sapo completely dropped off your radar later on, why?

I explained in my responses to Kortul. He didn't drop off my radar.

[Jal]

Lyanna, your vote on Benmage is a punch-in-the gut reminder of your questioning of Snowstorm for voting, and keeping a vote on town read Benmage, especially when you say you have good feelings about him yet your keep your vote on. I don't like it. What did you get out of your questioning of Benmage?

@Shinori, did you target Minimum N3? Why did you choose not to full-claim until today? That would have helped a lot yesterday, considering

Staeg claimed to be a Frey cop who could have easily investigated you to prove himself and perhaps your own name

.

[Jal]

@Lyanna, for once in this game, I'd like to see you actually respond to a post without a bunch of meaningless junk at the beginning.

You were one of two people I asked a question to or made a comment about not including MoI. Yours was short and sweet and wasn't hostile at all. Again, you are being overly defensive and I can't for the world figure out why. Pointing out something and asking a question is not being aggressive. I clearly said I was looking towards Minimum. So why do you think you're so special today instead?

I clearly said to SnowStorm that I wasn't questioning him only about that, especially considering it's something that I do from time to time. My picking up on that with SnowStorm was in addition to other things I found suspicious about him, which I told him about in that post, and my entire conversation with him was designed to get a read on him.

This is an overdrawn explanation for a simple observation I made.

I do not care that you questioned him about other things. It's not even relevant to this conversation. I'm pointing out how you're essentially doing the same thing you pointed out Snow of being scummy for. Can I believe that your post 333 was trying to scope out a reaction from Snow? Definitely. But you did pick up on it and I do think you were pointing it out as scummy - you also made a distinction between him doing it and

you

doing it.

And since you wanted to know what I got out of questioning Benmage, I'd like for you to tell me what do you think you'd get out of questioning me about this and scolding me for my bad memory? Am I scum for forgetting to remove a vote I made clear was only a reaction vote in the first place? Why are you concerned about what I got out of my interaction with Benmage?

To get a reaction out of you, of course.

Are you going to answer my question about Benmage properly now without the fluff? Did it help or what?

[Jal]

What do you consider of her writing to be a deliberate narrow focus? I'm not seeing it, even if you include MockingJaye's posts.

Um, I'm just talking about mockinjaye and she admitted to having a narrow focus at least twice? The question is purely one of interpreting it correctly (i.e. realizing that this is totes a scum tell for relatively inexperienced scum in a multiball scenario.)

Feysal hasn't done much of anything beyond the first half of D1. He isn't obviously townie or scummy. Scum have also obviously been shooting for either PRs or major town reads. How do you think his alignment will become obvious overtime as the town whittles down leaving the scummy towns/nulls behind? At least enough that he is definitely worth keeping?

It's happened every time I've played with him previously? And he'll probably do his best to scumhunt the opposing faction if he's scum so keeping him alive wouldn't be that in that case.

Um, replying in questions to make the answers seems obvious, lyke, totally doesn't make you seem any better. I don't care what MockingJaye said personally. Where and how do you see her having a deliberate narrow focus?

What has happened every time you've played with Feysal previously? His alignment becoming obvious? Be specific. I do not look up everyone's past and present games, nor should you expect

anyone

else to in this particular regard. I don't know or really care all that much about your history. Don't make it like it should be obvious. Other than not saying much of anything except a lot of words, Feysal has been taking a narrow focus on the Starbuck/Scumhunter slot. You think the slot is town. Do you see him branching out later on in this game if Scumhunter is still around?

[Jal]

Vote: minimum

Why the vote for Minimum?

And no I did not target minimum last night. Why do you think I targeted minimum?

I was mistakenly thinking of Staeg's claimed target there, and how you would need to re-investigate last night. I may have missed it though - who did you investigate?

All through out D2 and even during the trial by combat you didn't talk about or interact with sapo. If you thought he was scum why did you choose to focus on others?

I don't really remember why I didn't talk to/about him D2 much.

Probably because I was focusing more so on Stannis scum. Given Shadow's report on Bvoigt and Sapo's push on StefanB D1, I didn't think DCL and Sapo were from the same scum team. I was working with the flip we were given at the time and he didn't say much worth saying about D2 until the pm slip. I didn't really think that itself was scummy enough to wholly incriminate him, but I still thought he was scummy anyway.

I still think Jal's lack of follow up on sapo because other people had a townread is a bit scummy, especially when it came to the trial by combat.

Explain this.

@4nxi3ty, why do you think it would be okay to kill a claimed PR over a scum read? I don't *think* it prevents the player being killed overnight by scum anyway.

[Jal]

Okay. For the record, I don't think Shinori is scum. I just can't find the scum motivation in claiming D2 like that. I can see it maybe before Shadow came out with his results if he was worried about being suspicious, but not afterwards.

[Jal]

Guys, sorry I have to replace out. I have an emergency situation I've been dealing with for awhile and I find I can't handle any of my games as I try dealing it. I've only read this page since my last post so I'll address a few things.

1. I believe that quote from Anxiety is towards me: It was an obvious choice between Edd (someone I called town) and Sapo. At the time everyone (except Benmage) was waiting for the claim to go down before hurting, and the hurting down during a time I wasn't around. There pretty much was nothing to say or comment about Sapo D3 that wasn't done before my first post (let's wait for claim!). Not much to say afterwards, either. Woohoo?

2. Also wanted to mention: I can't shake the feeling Plum/Nacho, especially in the making of the two lists a few pages back, is just throwing out bull-crap, especially by knowing he'll be revealed soon.

3. Lyanna probably made some long post to me. I have expressed nothing against you. I cooled down yesterday. Come back down with me.

There's a big part of me that believes Lyanna is scum. There is this over explanation in her writing. She's very wishy washy with her reads on people. I said I thought DCL was busing someone, and I thought most strongly (even at the time) it was Lyanna, especially with her post D2 about bothering to argue with scum. Somewhere along the line I axe'd the possibility of her being Stannis scum though. Don't remember why.

Feysal does a similar over-explanation, just without all the wishy washyness. Still say that town snd scum list D1 was pure bunk.

Who the hell knows what's going on with Mina.

Hey Feysal, I doubt there's going to be an explanation in the pm explaining why someone's a VT.