Street Racers: New York (Game over!)

[penguin_alien]

Just posting to say that I'm still working on catching up; I generally prefer not to waste people's time with such posts, but given that it's taking me a while to catch up on 95 pages, it seems only proper to keep people informed.

[penguin_alien]

I'm not totally caught up on Day One, but I'm good on most of it, and Day Two and what's happened today. I'll try to fill in Day One where/if it becomes relevant.

Darthe. I'm guessing that NJ vigged Bumi in part of the neighbour thing. Do you think that makes you look more or less town?

I'm not following; I thought the 'arrested' thing in the flavor implied a vig rather than scum?

I find it shady that ArcAngel9 is willing to vote for Albus Dumbledore with the strongest reason I can find being that he's on an unflipped player's presumed town list and said unflipped player (Skyhook) is a top scum suspect of hers. And she seems to have no problem with the fact that another of her scum reads, in The Mini-Librarian, is right there joining her wagon. And for that matter, ArcAngel9, why do you think The Mini-Librarian is scum rather than what was claimed?

VOTE: ArcAngel9

The case on the DeasVail slot seems scattered a bit. I saw where curiouskarmadog thought that the slot should have been pushing his scum read on Sixx more strongly, but I get the sense that some of the push on the slot now is residual from minor stuff in early phases.

I don't like the wagon on Albus Dumbledore, as I think I covered earlier. I also don't concur on the Edosurist push I'm seeing; he comes off as competent town to me, and it feels like his game is similar to another game I was in (Newbie 1304) where he was so townie that scum-me would likely have NK'd him over the IC but for two PR claims being in play. His vote on the Albus Dumbledore wagon is less reassuring, but his point about it looking artificial is more solid.

Town reads on Jal and thezom221 as far as I can collate. After the super-long Day One and the truncated Day Two, this is a weird game to get a handle on. If there are outstanding questions to my slot, let me know; I don't recall seeing any that are currently relevant, but I wouldn't swear to it.

[penguin_alien]

Edosurist, your tone is a bit more relaxed in this game, and there's a point in Day One where the day going on so long seems to wear you and most of the other players down, but your individual points/responses to specific people and the way you direct questions to people is reminiscent of the other game. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but that was my initial impression.

[penguin_alien]

So Boniface, you don't think Albus Dumbledore is scum, but you want him to claim why? What do you anticipate gaining for your read or for the town's benefit from such a move?

[penguin_alien]

I honestly have like 6-7 people who I would gladly vote and with the size and length of this game I do not care who dies until it is down to about 16 people. By all means, provide a case on someone good enough for me to get behind and I will be there but I am not putting myself into a hundred pages worth of posts. It has too much info for anyone to come out clean.

...I think we

are

down to sixteen people?

Does anyone with a town read on ArcAngel9 care to explain why? Because I still think her vote on Albus Dumbledore was pretty sketchy.

Jal, JacobSavage is V/LA according to the activity overview, for purposes of getting a reaction out of him.

DeasVail, as odd as Edosurist questioning my town read was, I see no situation where scum would do that.

[penguin_alien]

I don't think I have; give me a minute to double-check what my slot's done in its three previous incarnations. (FWIW, I think the V/LA in the activity overview status is universal, not game-specific)

[penguin_alien]

jeck was the only one of my predecessors to mention him: #582 as a null-leaning-scum with no reasons given. I didn't mention him before the post in question.

Although I did notice him being on the browsing status thanks to Ctrl+F highlighting his name in checking my ISO. So, yeah, at this point I don't know that he deserves much leeway.

I think most of the wagon on you was terrible, Albus Dumbledore, headlined by ArcAngel9. There's a lot of her play that seems aimless this game, and I've read town and scum game(s) from her, so I don't know that this is exactly her town play.

[penguin_alien]

Bumi's dead and flipped Town Neighbor, Slaandar.

Rereading your (Jal's) ISO with JacobSavage, does underline the degree to which he's avoided addressing any of your questions since the start of Day One. I suppose it's a better lynch than Albus Dumbledore.

I still think ArcAngel9's push on Albus Dumbledore is scummy. I've had reason to check out her meta; Boniface, I don't think I buy that she could only be playing over-the-top bad as town. See: WOW Cataclysm Mafia in her threads for a start. DeasVail, you said you haven't seen her as scum; does the WOW iso: [ur=http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go]here[/url] affect your read?

Boniface, now you're 'curious' about the Albus Dumbledore wagon. In what respect? Do you still think he should claim?

[penguin_alien]

EBWOP: the WOW iso: here

[penguin_alien]

Oh, sorry.

[penguin_alien]

It's not a matter of expecting anything in particular from town-ArcAngel9. I'm not thinking that she's more/less emotional, better/worse poster; it's just that she plays in a way that gets written off as newbish or not competent, and since it happens as both alignments, I don't think it's a good reason to ignore her when she makes a suspect case on someone as she did with Albus Dumbledore in my opinion.

[penguin_alien]

I find it shady that ArcAngel9 is willing to vote for Albus Dumbledore with the strongest reason I can find being that he's on an unflipped player's presumed town list and said unflipped player (Skyhook) is a top scum suspect of hers. And she seems to have no problem with the fact that another of her scum reads, in The Mini-Librarian, is right there joining her wagon. And for that matter, ArcAngel9, why do you think The Mini-Librarian is scum rather than what was claimed?

ArcAngel9, could you please address this? And as soon as Baby Spice votes you she's scummier than someone you spent a lot of time making a case on?

Boniface, what's your take on the Albus Dumbledore wagon? You keep saying you [were] curious about it, or wanted him to claim for 'everyone's benefit'; if you still think he's town, are you curious about the wagon because you think there was scum there or because you think a misguided town is making a big mistake?

[penguin_alien]

Penguin, Please refer to my Post # 2607 & 2594 about Baby Spice.

Yes, you mention her responses to Slaandar, but you seem to give at least equal weight to the fact that she voted for you.

And about Mini, His reasons didn't sit well for me... He seems to be agreeing with alot with others on this game. i have played with him before and he is not like this .. At least that is not he is when he is town... that's is just my suspect, there is a good chance he could be town too... But for now. BabySpice has most point less reasons to go after people which is totally a scum slip....

The Mini-Librarian has role-claimed. Admittedly, while I've never played with a universal back-up before, it might be easy to fake, especially with Doctor being the first PR flipped to back-up. You say he doesn't agree with others a lot when town; does he do this when scum in your experience?

And you're still not addressing my point: your vote on Albus Dumbledore seemed to be based on associating him with someone (Skyhook-now-Lurker) who you thought was scum but hadn't flipped; not even directly associating him, but rather based on Albus Dumbledore's position on a reads list. And you avoid addressing that The Mini-Librarian hopped on the wagon right after you until well after I pointed it out, then you 'remember' to come back to my question. In going from Skyhook-Lurker to Albus Dumbledore, you make a case on Skyhook, then jump to Albus Dumbledore within a page.

Then while you're on Albus Dumbledore, there's this:

If the Albus wagon not going to work.. Second in my list is Curiouskarmadog

What's to 'work' there? You had more than half the people on the wagon needed to lynch. So a couple others argue against it; why not present a counterargument instead of poising yourself to jump off the wagon?

If you can vote someone right now, who would you vote?

Well, right now I'm voting for you.

[penguin_alien]

I'm of several minds about the Jal wagon. On the one hand, I didn't see what Slaandar did yesterday WRT Baby Spice, but he turned out to be correct, so that inclines me to buy into his reads off the bat. But then it seems that his initial basis for calling out Jal was saying that she had extra information obtained by being scum to know which kills should be credited to which faction, namely who the blues NK'd, yet that was demonstrated to be incorrect, negating the whole start of the wagon. But then there's how Jal responded to being run up so far. Which upon rereading her ISO, seems pretty consistent with a town mindset in terms of continuing to scum-hunt while defending herself. Admittedly this is my first multiball game, and I understand that such a set-up makes it easier for scum to maintain such a townie attitude, but it's consistent and doesn't feel like scum flailing to me.

I'm also not sure I agree with Slaandar being so certain that ArcAngel9 and Boniface are town. While ArcAngel9 can be impulsive, I think it's more a matter of playstyle across the board rather than a town tell, and while we didn't lose a PR with the JacobSavage lynch, it certainly wasn't thanks to her concern for such an outcome. I read her explanation for thinking that JacobSavage was at L-2, but that all happened in < 10 posts, from StrangerCoug's vote count to her hammer. JacobSavage is at L-2 in the vote count, he responds to something, Baby Spice votes, and The Mini-Librarian points out that JacobSavage's response

made when he was still at L-2

was not congruent with town play in such a situation. Yes, Baby Spice should have noted that her vote put JacobSavage at L-1, but as scum her failure to do so isn't exactly shocking. ArcAngel9 becoming defensive and then immediately claiming that by being defensive she's obviously town is shady too. And I still don't feel like ArcAngel9's push on Albus Dumbledore tracked very well last day phase; it felt scum-motivated with the willingness to jump around and vote based on associations with unflipped players.

Boniface's push on ArcAngel9 makes me think better of him than his play yesterday, although again I don't quite buy his actions from last day phase as town-motivated despite his explanations. He felt that the wagon on Albus Dumbledore was wrong, but instead of trying to explain his gut town read or get those on the wagon to explain their case more clearly, he jumps to asking for a claim? I get that the early play from PMysterious as quoted by Slandaar was fairly townie, but it doesn't negate some rather weird claim-hunting.

Slandaar, how do you find The Mini-Librarian to be likely scum given the claim? It was made before any town PRs had died, which meant that it was an incredibly risky choice for a fake claim. If njoseph had been the first town PR to die, TML would have had to explain not taking vig shots if lying. Or if an investigative role got killed, scum-TML'd be stuck making up results for the rest of the game. This isn't to say that I don't want TML to answer your question about the protection choices made thus far, but is the evidence against TML enough to outweigh a really awful choice for a fake-claim?

Push comes to shove, I'm finding ArcAngel9 to have the scummiest postings the last couple day phases.

VOTE: ArcAngel9

[penguin_alien]

Allyra, I wasn't voting ArcAngel9 for defensiveness. My ISO as a recent replacement is pretty short and I think explains my reasoning pretty clearly, but the short version is that her jump onto Albus Dumbledore was really bad when considering her purported scum reads at the time and the hammer on JacobSavage was abysmal. Her refusal to acknowledge this, particularly the last point, is shady to me, but a lot of people seem willing to hand-wave it away as bad play. I'm not.

Having said that, the case on The Mini-Librarian is pretty bad if it really was expected that TML would be protecting B&B the night blue scum opted to kill B&B. Even if red had a roleblocker, why would they block TML and then not go after B&B themselves? Given that the other cases being put forward are the one on Jal, which stems from an erroneous assumption about blue scum kill knowledge and connections to Baby Spice that have yet to be divulged (Darthe, I'm listening), and a push on Edosurist that feels half-assed at best:

VOTE: The Mini-Librarian

[penguin_alien]

Yet another VT.

PeregrineV, from the list of the dead it looks like the character names are all over the map. The cars, it seems like the cop scum drive cop-brand cars, but there are a few brands I don't recognize, namely Shelby, Renault, and Triumph. But I'm not a car person, so if there's any deeper pattern there I'm out of my depth.

[penguin_alien]

I'm Billy Sanders, driving a 1997 Nissan 240SX.

[penguin_alien]

Slandaar, if you want me to check this out, post the link and I will, but does your theory line up with the dead?

[penguin_alien]

Thanks, I'll check it out.

[penguin_alien]

mcqueen, you're saying that we have PRs who are lying in claiming to avoid the NK? But my understanding is that if one claims in a mass claim situation and then changes that claim later, it's considered grounds for a lynch for being most likely scum trying to capitalize on the now-known results of the mass claim. With the likely exception of a PGO-type PR; obviously at this point they'd want to draw the NKs. I suppose if there are PRs in a neighborhood who can vouch for each other, maybe? But how would we know that's not two scum faking such a set-up? Or are you assuming some super-neighborhood with Darthe and Bumi as well? Which again probably should have been declared during mass claim, at least as VTs in such a neighborhood.

mcqueen calling Slandaar a liability sounds desperate. In my books Slandaar gets a lot of credit for pushing The Mini-Librarian to lynch, and he was moving pretty seriously on Baby Spice before the NK. As blue scum he has little motive for whittling away his own team via the TML lynch, and his push on Baby Spice doesn't seem like he'd want to NK her as opposed to working for the lynch. As red scum it works a bit better in that he wouldn't have anticipated the NK making his Baby Spice push useless, but why bus a teammate when you're not desperate for town cred and you're at full strength? Unless he's a third-party trolling by not showing up in the night kills, I think he's about as far from a liability as we can get. So aside from calling you scum, mcqueen, what's he done that's so scummy in your mind?

VOTE: mcqueen

Darthe, are you working with the theory that Slandaar and Jal are scum together, and that's your 'both'? I plan to investigate how the dead fit into Slandaar's theory tomorrow (I thought the Midnight Racer thing was the mod's invention...not a video game aficionado here) so I'll have to get a handle on the wiki. Meanwhile, Darthe, your case on Baby Spice-TML-Jal was comprehensive, but some of it at least seemed to hinge on Baby Spice and TML being on the same team. It tracks better if Jal is the last blue scum, but your linking Baby Spice to TML as part of a triangle destabilizes things for me. Then with your Slandaar-Jal team theory, if that's what you mean and not that they're separate scum, they can't both be blue unless we have a 5-3 or 5-4 situation. Which seems either inequitable in the former case or pretty formidable in the latter. I'm assuming it's not 5-5 because that would leave six scum alive right now and render this game pretty futile given the PRs claimed to be in the set-up.

[penguin_alien]

Prod dodge.

[penguin_alien]

Who, me? I am voting. Have been for a while.

[penguin_alien]

...I am voting for mcqueen? I'm sorry, if you're talking to me I'm not tracking.

[penguin_alien]

I'm not inclined to let the mcqueen slot off the hook, but since I assume we'll have time to interrogate his replacement I'm also not too worried about that happening.

Could someone who wants to string up DeasVail explain the case in brief or point me to what they think is a good summary? Because it keeps coming back to, 'the slot is scummy, lynch it' and I don't see a cogent argument in place.

[penguin_alien]

The arguments mcqueen was making made zero sense coming from town. You have Slaandar, who pushed through the case on The Mini-Librarian, which rules him out as blue scum in my mind. There's no way he'd want to leave himself last blue man standing. Then he was pushing the case on Baby Spice in a way that went beyond distancing or bussing at a time when I don't see where the red team needed to make waves. So unlikely red scum. Yet mcqueen was seriously giving us a scum read on Slaandar. So Lurker, new guy comes in and doesn't step in it: his not being super-scummy doesn't negate the actions of his predecessor. And yes, wind-up, I think when someone's pushing a case that is patently full of holes it's unlikely they have town motivations.

As far as ArcAngel9 is concerned, I don't have a town read on her, but mcqueen really pushed your slot to the head of the queue for me. WRT ArcAngel9 in light of The Mini-Librarian's flip, she had TML as a scum read, yet happily voted with TML when wagoning Albus Dumbledore. Then there's the hammer without a claim on JacobSavage. I'm not sure how to interpret her early jump with The Mini-Librarian wagon. If she's the last blue scum, it was a lousy time to bus. If she's red scum, that worked out pretty well. I just get a weird vibe from her inconsistency when it comes to TML, but everyone's writing her off as town, to the point where I don't really want to pursue it above a scum read on your slot unless I can articulate it better, since what I'm saying now obviously isn't persuasive. I also find it puzzling that she skipped out on the whole discussion of the mcqueen slot. Yes, she declared V/LA, but she didn't give us anything on the subject before heading out when it seemed quite feasible that, as a VT claim at L-1, he'd be lynched before her return.

LlamaFluff was definitely calling out SlySly in those posts; I'll look over SlySly-slot's ISO later. It certainly doesn't help in my mind that Lurker was content with you (wind-up) showing up as impetus to unvote if he thought mcqueen was scummy in his own right.

[penguin_alien]

The arguments mcqueen was making made zero sense coming from town.

Qualify this assertion.

The arguments mcqueen was making made zero sense coming from town...to me? Not sure what you mean by asking me to qualify that. The only reason I see for mcqueen to have made such a lousy argument was an attempt to get the very pro-town Slandaar lynched. Which shouldn't be a town move. So, scum.

Darthe makes a good point about the mcqueen wagon stall. If he's not scum, why didn't scum hammer? Unless we're really going to make the argument that all the other scum jumped on his wagon. I'd buy that blue scum might have already been there, but unless it was Lurker, I just don't see it with Darthe or Slandaar not likely scum of any color. But if mcqueen wasn't red scum, there were four other people on the wagon, none of whom are on my scum list. So why didn't scum hammer? Heaven knows there was enough time, and unless I'm wrong and the red team is Slandaar, Lurker, and Darthe, there should have been red scum off the wagon available to hammer. The only motivation I see not to hammer is if red scum thinks they don't need to bus.

[penguin_alien]

slandaar never has been "oh theyre my teammates so ill let them go" kind of guy. not to say he will kill his partners on purpose, but seeing as youve gotten yourselves this far, and slandaar is so "conftown," i'm going to put that out there.

now, after killing his partners, all he has to do is seek out the rest of the other team, get them lynched using his "conftown" status, and win.

very easy game for him to win. i will say, it was obviously a risky and successful gambit, so i respect you for that, but that doesnt mean that in this game you arent scum.

wind-up, this is the gist of what mcqueen was saying that made no sense. Maybe Slandaar is the bussing type in general, but it doesn't add up here for him to be on either scum team. There was other stuff about scum not claiming PRs during the mass claim that was shady as well, but this is what I was referring to.

[penguin_alien]

PeregrineV, why did you come in after ArcAngel9's hammer and say you'd have more later? It reads like an attempt to deflect attention.

[penguin_alien]

Two town and one scum at night is a scum win, ArcAngel9, barring a PGO or some such. But nice try.

Yes, I've been saying you're scum all game; no one's been interested. I believe I addressed this yesterday. mcqueen-wind-up seemed like a scum lynch that was more likely to be successful, so I went there. Everyone's been giving you a pass for your scummy play, but I don't think you're town here. Your hammer on JS was awful, and your voting in lockstep with TML on AD belies your scum read there. You actually end up voting with TML a lot by day's end. That makes me think you're the last blue scum, especially with you spinning scenarios why we shouldn't be aiming for blue at all that has you glossing over a near-guaranteed second red scum. Since you pretty much have every living player down as red or blue. Then I become the only red scum option. Right. Convenient, that.

I still think wind-up could be red scum. I can't fathom why else mcqueen wasn't lynched at L-1; presumably red thought they could get another target out there, and unfortunately for them it was another of their number.

PeregrineV, since I disagree that wind-up was definitely a counterwagon, I don't think your pointing out that I was on a wagon I still think was on scum with town and scum players really says all that much.

[penguin_alien]

Since I'd assume scum not on the wagon would hammer at this point, this actually makes me more confident in my scum reads on wind-up and ArcAngel9, and given discussion today I'm inclined to think PeregrineV is the third scum. Only question is whether ArvAngel9 or PeregrineV is the blue we need to lynch today to avoid the chance of a likely town loss on the morrow. I'm inclined to trust Slandaar on this, but I ask again: Slandaar, are you sure ArcAngel9 is more likely red scum for her interactions with Baby Spice?

wind-up, given the pressure on your slot I'm not surprised you went for the town credit in hopping on the DV wagon when you replaced in. One of you was going down, and your slot looked better pre-mcqueen self-destructing.

[penguin_alien]

wind-up, given the pressure on your slot I'm not surprised you went for the town credit in hopping on the DV wagon when you replaced in. One of you was going down, and your slot looked better pre-mcqueen self-destructing.

Your reasoning is circular. Apparently, I am scum because I am scum.

Moreover, it would be a pretty moronic idea to bus my bulletproof buddy approaching what looks like a multi-faction endgame. But of course you conveniently leave that out.

You asked me why you didn't start a non-red counterwagon if you were red scum. Yes, bussing the bulletproof PR on your own team is moronic on the surface, but it sure gave you a nice argument here.

Since I'd assume scum not on the wagon would hammer at this point, this actually makes me more confident in my scum reads on wind-up and ArcAngel9, and given discussion today I'm inclined to think PeregrineV is the third scum. Only question is whether ArvAngel9 or PeregrineV is the blue we need to lynch today to avoid the chance of a likely town loss on the morrow. I'm inclined to trust Slandaar on this, but I ask again: Slandaar, are you sure ArcAngel9 is more likely red scum for her interactions with Baby Spice?

wind-up, given the pressure on your slot I'm not surprised you went for the town credit in hopping on the DV wagon when you replaced in. One of you was going down, and your slot looked better pre-mcqueen self-destructing.

you're obviously trying to fake yourself so that you can save yourself. how ironic it is that you have finally come here with only agenda to get me lynched. Any scum in your place would exactly react in this way... "WAit, the people in this wagon are scums... vote them, lynch them..blah blah.. "

seriously, you think you can come and say things like these and people would believe it?


folks, i said this before i am telling you again. we don't know for a certain who is the blue scum and filtering blue scum out of 4 people is not worth of the risk. penguin is confirmed red scum, we lynch her today and keep our chance of winning.

And think about this, if penguin is really town, this is the kind of defense she would give? like seriously? after this far, she would just give up with no fight?

I'm not sure what's so ironic about me trying to get scum lynched. I've thought you and wind-up were scum for a good while now, and if there was a scum not on my wagon they would have hammered to send this game into night at 3-2-1. Which makes me conclude that PV is scum in conjunction with Slandaar's theory.

Regarding our chance of winning (the town's, not yours) if we lynch red scum today there's a very good chance we end up in the 2-1-1 endgame scenario outlined in the wiki that leaves the town's only chance of winning with the hope of scum cross-killing after a no-lynch. Lynching blue at least gives us a guaranteed chance to choose wisely at LyLo. Go look up dilemma on the mafia wiki and read about the four player scenario, substituting in a second mafia faction for the SK, to help you fake town better.

Personally I think Slandaar's points about ArcAngel9's interaction with TML reconcile my questions over whether her stance on that slot makes her blue or red scum. Which means PV is our lynch for today. Allyra, Jal, anything you see differently?

P-edit: catching up again...

[penguin_alien]

ArcAngel9, can you give any reason to think me or Slandaar is scum aside from being on a wagon you disagree with and calling out your scummy play? And yes, your hammer on JS was unabashedly scummy.

[penguin_alien]

7 alive, 5 town, 2 redscum, 1 bluescum.

Lynch town today, makes it 4:2:1.

Then, tomorrow it's either

2:2:1
or
4:1:0
or
3:1:1

Right?

Or maybe not, since maybe red has a bulletproof

You asked me why you didn't start a non-red counterwagon if you were red scum. Yes, bussing the bulletproof PR on your own team is moronic on the surface, but it sure gave you a nice argument here.

Or a double target occurs.

So then it's maybe

4:2:0
or
3:2:1

With me so far?

No, because 5 + 2 + 1 isn't 7, it's 8. Try again.

[penguin_alien]

2:1:1 should be a no-lynch. There's no good outcome for town. See the dilemma I pointed ArcAngel9 to earlier.

At 4:1:1 at night, scum has no incentive to cross-kill, which means unless we get lucky with an overlapping kill, we're right back to the 2:1:1 that takes the power out of town hands. By aiming for blue with today's lynch, we at least attempt to put ourselves in a position to win without relying on derp scum.

[penguin_alien]

That you're so determined to ignore the ramifications of lynching blue scum doesn't look good. If you actually think I'm red scum and you're town, you should be saving me for another day. Lynching town today goes to 3:2:1, in which case cross-kiling is MyLo, red killing blue with blue killing town is game over, and vice versa is the aforementioned 2:1:1.

To summarize three scenarios:

Lynching town: we lose outright or hope scum are feeling cooperative in their night actions.
Lynching red: we hope scum kill in our favor here again as above.
Lynching blue: we have a guaranteee then of getting another shot at scum at 5 person LyLo.

I haven't been in the game as long as most of you, but for what I've invested I sure don't want it to come down to crossing our fingers and hoping scum self-destruct after months of play.

P-edit: Or the short version as Slandaar said.

[penguin_alien]

ArcAngel9, please explain what about my post is stupid. And saying yku're town or I'm scum doesn't count.

Sigh. Or saying Slandaar's scum, to cover all bases.

[penguin_alien]

your post # 3306, Its a wanna be town post.

So, my post sounds townie, which must be false because I'm scum?

You're scum, and the act you're putting and pretending to be town by just tellign things we already know.. ITS a freaking FILLER POST!!!!

If you were town you're not acting like you already understand my points, rendering it not-filler from town-you perspective.

And how comfortabaly you are not even talkign about how you missed DV wagaon

I thought and continue to think wind-up is red scum. Given the way DV was under pressure from the time I replaced in, I'd have bussed like mad with all the opportunity I had to do so. Yes, that's WIFOM, but given his recurring popularity as a lynch target, it would have been foolish to hope he'd never be strung up.

and how you dont' suspect Slaandar for not being DV wagon. and the way you think him as town with no reasons and the way he sees you as no reason.

One more time: my top reason for Slandaar not being blue scum is his persuasive case on TML, and he's not red because he called out Baby Spice when red was a full team and not in danger. Ergo, not scum. He'll have to address why he's figured out I'm town.

And both of you giving these point less numbers that is not helping this game.. Do I need to say more?

Working toward an optimal lynch is not useless. So yes, you do need to say more if you want to provide a satisfactory answer.

[penguin_alien]

Blast, blew the tags. Hopefully no one's confused on what my comments are?

[penguin_alien]

Prod dodge; still thinking PeregrineV is the blue scum with ArcAngel9 as the distant runner-up. But probably PeregrineV.

[penguin_alien]

Allyra, I wasn't voting ArcAngel9 for defensiveness. My ISO as a recent replacement is pretty short and I think explains my reasoning pretty clearly, but the short version is that her jump onto Albus Dumbledore was really bad when considering her purported scum reads at the time and the hammer on JacobSavage was abysmal. Her refusal to acknowledge this, particularly the last point, is shady to me, but a lot of people seem willing to hand-wave it away as bad play. I'm not.

Having said that, the case on The Mini-Librarian is pretty bad if it really was expected that TML would be protecting B&B the night blue scum opted to kill B&B. Even if red had a roleblocker, why would they block TML and then not go after B&B themselves? Given that the other cases being put forward are the one on Jal, which stems from an erroneous assumption about blue scum kill knowledge and connections to Baby Spice that have yet to be divulged (Darthe, I'm listening), and a push on Edosurist that feels half-assed at best:

VOTE: The Mini-Librarian

Why did you vote tml in the same post you claim the case against him is bad?

I meant that it looked pretty bad for TML. Which I realize is not what my statement reads, but the rest of the paragraph should back up my intent.

[penguin_alien]

If mcqueen was blue scum, why wasn't he hammered yesterday? Since I know I'm not red scum, there had to be minimum one red scum off the wagon working with mcqueen as blue, possibly and more likely in that scenario two, since I believe you're town.

[penguin_alien]

I was questioning Slandaar's thinking he was blue. Red should have hammered if mcqueen is blue or town, hence why I suspect him of being red scum.

[penguin_alien]

Yeah, Jal, I suppose they might have passed up the chance, but to what end? As of this vote count, mcqueen's at L-1. Thirteen posts later, DeasVail comes in and declines to vote at all here. The non-mcqueen people on the wagon are Slandaar, myself, Lurker, and Darthe, the last two of whom everyone now knows are town. Unless Slandaar has been playing a wacky scum game, he's town, and I'm town. So, all-town wagon plus a self-vote, and now-known red scum who's been under pressure for multiple days anyways declines to hammer? It reads like DeasVail doesn't like his odds of getting to the end and doesn't want to take out a teammate who's been under less suspicion on the whole. Otherwise DeasVail should have wanted to stay alive at all costs. Even if he hammered a townie there, he had little to lose and would have been able to buy his team another night phase at three-strong and give them a chance to optimize bussing him. Instead DeasVail had to wave a red flag in front of ArcAngel9 to get her to hammer him.

[penguin_alien]

Slandaar, you started out the day thinking PeregrineV was the blue scum. You then found the interactions with TML that pointed toward blue scum being wind-up; where does that leave you on PeregrineV?

[penguin_alien]

Prod dodge waiting for PV to start...

[penguin_alien]

PV still seems luke the most likely blue scum. That's where I plan to vote.

[penguin_alien]

Spin me a theory to support this and we can discuss it. Because I'm pretty sure you and wind-up are the red scum, so I am fascinated to know what you have to back this up.

And who do you think is blue scum?

[penguin_alien]

PeregrineV, who do you think is blue scum? Because I don't see where you think anyone else is.

[penguin_alien]

You keep saying that and failing to back it up. With anything. And never addressing any of my points about your scummy behavior. And now you're quick voting at LyLo. I just hope I'm right that it's you and wind-up, or this could get ugly fast. I was more confident in wind-up being scum at the end of last day phase, but your absurd quick vote puts you well in the lead.

[penguin_alien]

Explain to me why you had The Mini-Librarian as a scum read but were happy to vote where he did? On top of that, I still don't buy that your hammering of JacobSavage was an accident. You start rolefishing in #177 for a day vig. Then you spend a inordinate amount of time telling people under what circumstances they're allowed to think you're scum, and anyone who disagrees is stupid and should have water thrown on them as per #1316. You make gratuitous comments on night results in #2143.

Check out #2417, where Slandaar's predecessor calls out ArcAngel9 on the lousy Albus wagon and wants to vote now-known red scum slot DeasVail-MattP. See how ArcAngel9 reacts? Defensive to the max when she had failed to present any case on Albus. Almost like she is here...!

I'm not voting until Slandaar and Jal weigh in. Yes, I think they are town, so why would I mention them? I figured that was implied by nailing down you and wind-up as the red scum, since we have no more than two scum left here.

So why don't you stop blowing hot air about how I'm confirmed red scum and give up? Although I will note that your flip shouldn't make anything over, as we still have to string up your partner after that. Come to think of it, why say that I should give up and it's over? If you actually were town who thought I was red scum, lynching me would actually make the game not over. Whereas scum-you mislynching me...you see where this is going.

[penguin_alien]

Alternative (and correct) theory: you are scum, hence there aren't two scum out there available to quickhammer.

3211 is saying I must be scum because I didn't pig-headedly try to lynch you when no one would listen after repeatedly stating my suspicions at a time when there were (and continue to be) multiple scum in play. Which I pointed out then. The next two posts are you saying I'm confirmed scum with no support, and 3275 is Slandaar.

Care to address anything in #3497?

[penguin_alien]

Please rephrase the above, preferably without calling me a freak, and explain why you think a lynch will end the game for your side if you're town.

[penguin_alien]

Now that's comedy. "Hey, someone come vote here, and I swear my partner won't swoop in and quickhammer!"

[penguin_alien]

Fascinating, you realize that you are saying you have reason to think there's only one scum left, even though we've seen four blue scum? Do tell.

And yeah, I have no interest in self-voting at LyLo. If only because I feel like they would have to institute the Scummy Razzies to commemorate such an idiotic move.

[penguin_alien]

I no longer care what wind-up or rest of you..becuz its evident to me that Penguin is the one of the last two surviving RED scums and Lynching her would secure the TOWN WIN. And I will stick to that.

re: you implying one scum left, half of your statement above implies that one lynch will make for a town win.

Look, your postings in this day phase plus everything I pointed out that you refuse to address make me pretty sure you're scum. I want to hear more from wind-up and Jal, but you look like half the remaining scum team to me. I'm good with voting you once more people have weighed in.

[penguin_alien]

If ArcAngel9 were misguided town voting me, I don't buy that scum wouldn't have hammered. So I'm going with my scum read.

VOTE: ArcAngel9

The flailing and bad LyLo play if it had been coming from town makes me pretty darn certain on this.

[penguin_alien]

What in there eliminates ArcAngel9 from being scum with anyone else? And where's the town motivation for her trying to get me to self-vote? And I'm 'picking' at scum slips, not confusion about intent.

[penguin_alien]

ArcAngel9 has been shady for a while. Her 'sloppy' hammer and awful push on Albus were never adequately explained, with the latter not even addressed, only eclipsed by scummier targets two days ago and the need to pin down blue scum last day phase.

[penguin_alien]

Because she felt more confident focusing there, since she knew where red scum actually was.

[penguin_alien]

Okay guys,

Because she felt more confident focusing there, since she knew where red scum actually was.

This looks like Penguin either just admitted she was red scum (Angel was looking in the right place) or that both she and Angel are scum (Red scum knowing where to look).

Key word

actually

. As red, ignoring blue and pretending to search for red let her try to string up a townie. If she is red scum, she knows where her partner is and so can make sure she directs away from them. Like, say, her insistence that wind-up is town with no support. She could still shoot for blue at night and hope that the blue hit a townie by mistake, which would have brought us into this day phase at 2:2. Even if the blue did hit red, the crosskill still leaves red at MyLo, not a bad gamble for a potential outright win as the payoff.

[penguin_alien]

VOTE: penguin_alien

[penguin_alien]

Thanks to StrangerCoug for modding, fun set-up!

And you thought there was no way you were getting to endgame as last red standing, Jal...were you playing at the end against the possibility of a venge kill?

I had no idea DeasVail was one-shot as opppsed to perpetual BP. I suspect the blue team would have fared much differently with the JK in play, if only to back up the doctor fakeclaim.

Town really went on a tear at the end, there. Like I think I said in the dead thread, for a game with 50+ players participating at different times, it was well-fought by
own, and especially ArcAngel9 for being in there the whole 4+ months.

I had fun with the rest of the red team; I'm only sorry it was so short in some cases.

[penguin_alien]

Blue's scum QT is linked in their role PMs, FYI.

[penguin_alien]

Hey, Edosurist, why were you so upset I read you as town when I replaced in?