The Wire, Season 1 - Final Credits!

[camn]

Hi everyone!
I want to say up front- my work schedule is mad these days... but I will do my best to vote keep my activity level up. Mostly when I get home I just eat donuts and cry... but I can probably post every day, too.

Second- no reason voting sucks. FoS: EVERYONE ON THIS PAGE.
BUT... I cant vote for all of them...so

vote Shadoweh

why sign up with no flavor knowledge? I don't believe it.

[camn]

Plenty of the good guys on the show are black, too!

But I dont see how this convo is useful.

[camn]

Yea but there is not one white person in the Barksdale crew from memory. So anyone claiming a white guy would be not town.

Massclaim? Names only?

[camn]

Yea but there is not one white person in the Barksdale crew from memory. So anyone claiming a white guy would be not town.

Nah scum probably have fakeclaims

exactly.

[camn]

Cerulean- Encouraging us out of the RVS. Randomly naming names is the worst kind of first page. But- no longer relevant.
And- why not just post as the hydra? This talk about your internal discussion with the other head.... it confuses me.

DAYNE- please tell me- do you have a post restriction? Or are you doing this on purpose?

[camn]

Which btw camn, doesn't look like a PR, as pretty sure he broke 'character' in his red text.

I'd like an answer from him just the same.

[camn]

Dayne- Post restriction? yes or no.

[camn]

UNVOTE.
VOTE : Plessiezarus

Plessiezarus is scum who is hiding in drivel.
No vote. No real commentary. No real discussion... BUT they find time for hydra self-reference, which is my new scumtell.
"Hey guys! we are REALLY scumhunting here in our QT.. so much we actually get in REAL ARGUMENTS about who is scum... cuz we dont already know! See! See what I did there? Now it is proven I am town.... so there"

If you are having such a rousing debate internally, why cant you find the time to post something of substance?
Answer: you aren't. Its bullsh- you are scum.

[camn]

Shadow- I'm town. And I don't know if you know my game or not.... but my posts are rarely >useless<. If you don't see why I am doing something, look harder. Or ask. I might tell you.

[camn]

/NOT GAME RELATED @Cerulean

The hydra thing bothers me, especially when there are so many of you, because you say things like: "Benmage is empire's strongest townread at the moment".. and for a second.. or sometimes longer than a second.. I think.. who the f is that? empire? Then I think, Jesus, f-ing Large Themes.. I can hardly keep track of the players... then I think OH YEAH THIS IS A FUCKING HYDRA. And I curse, in my mind, which I am not wont to do.
It distracts me.
I would, personally, and in general, like it if you hydras just said "We have a townread on Benmage." Or, if you are truly in disagreement (which makes me suspicious all on its own), maybe remind me? Like... Say- "My Other head has a townread on Benmage".
Or maybe, Could All Hydras post their Membership in their sigs, if they insist on constantly referencing player names of their other parts? That would also help ME IN PARTICULAR.

Obviously, none of this (save maybe the 'disagreements') is alignment-related... it just interferes with my flow, you know? I have a hard enough time with larges as it is.

/THANK YOU FOR INDULGING MY OFF-TOPIC CHATTER

[camn]

The disagreement thing is something, I'm not real sure why you find suspicious, but is going to happen.

Lets stop talking about you, and start talking about

Plessizarus

The whole idea that they are having an internal DEBATE is predicated on the assumption that they are town, which I can't do at this point in the game.
If they are scum, then certainly there is no

disagreement

about who is scum, right? But it is TOTALLY in their scum-interest to give us that impression. How? By telling us all about their disagreements! Im sure they would post a QT to 'prove' it, if that werent against the rules (and famously faked in the past)

It's like they are distancing with another player- which is obv scummy this early in the game- only the other player is THEMSELVES, so we cant even lynch them for faction association.

Which is why they get my vote.
Because in THIS case.. Plessizarus is stating that they are having a debate of sorts, in fact in 135 they refer to some opinion that one of the heads has that they miraculously have time to discuss in the QT- but not in-thread.

That, to me, is one of three things.
a) blatantly anti-town. We need to hear the discussion.. the reasoning.. the data. We need it.
OR
b) a lie. There is no internal discussion, because they KNOW everyones faction already... and they are just saying that to look town (as outlined above)
OR
c) misdirection. They are Power-Hunting or SK-hunting in the QT.. but they flip the script to look like they are SCUM-hunting.. for reasons just explained.

Savvy?

[camn]

Please, my dear townies, observe Plez' response to my vote.
Denial.
Combativeness.
Defensiveness.

Could be I have struck a nerve.
Some finer points:
First- I DID answer that question! But Perez didn't notice in his eagerness to create a counter crap case. Attack your attacker, hmm? Not a logical way to find scum... but QUITE logical to try and avoid heat.
Second- calling something 'silly' is no way to argue against it.

[camn]

Oops. Accidentally submitted

Third- the sudden uptick in your post volume after they catch a vote? Classic lurkerscum.
'Uh oh! ... I'm not under the radar anymore! Time to switch tactics!"

Last- Petty is petty, and not pro town.

[camn]

I am not convinced on Jasonscum. It certainly could be that he is fooling me, but I generally feel confident on my gut reads of Jason.
In re: my so-called "obsession"..... if that's gonna keep getting mentioned, I would like someone to point out where it actually happened. I am officially telling you that it was just a question, and one I would want answered any time someone displays a weird post-style. But to spin it as "obsession "...... It does occur to me to wonder why anyone would spin it that way So cite, please. Or retract.

[camn]

camn, who are you complaining to?

Who's complaining? The misrep just nags at me, that's all.
Its been buried/qouted in a couple walls.... They know who they are.

[camn]

Yep.

UNVOTE
VOTE MCSTAB

[camn]

Ps- based on recent posts, I think Plezz and McStab are scum together.
I'd support either of their lynches at the moment.... but I do need to reread McStab when I get the time.

[camn]

I could also get behind a peta wagon.

[camn]

I'm pretty sure I read Cerulean defending Plees from Camn too which makes me urk. But I will look back again later.

I missed this- I would love to see it, if you can point it out.

[camn]

Why is pless scum and why are they together?

Please, PLEASE read the thread before you ask questions like this.
I dont have anything to elaborate on my reasons for thinking Pless is scum..and I think I have actually been quite clear for a Day-1 case in a large.
As far as the connection? Read the thread and we can talk about it.

In other news:
this is scummy.

SD is actually pretty solid, people should back off of that wagon.

Vifam was scummy in general, and so is his replacement. Also note the hypocrisy of asking me 'why' while delivering absolutely nothing in the way of 'why'.

And FURTHER furthermore:

Hmmm, actually there's something interesting I just found out about SafetyDance I have to run by my other head first. Stay tuned.

THIS IS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT.
just spill it.
Its like if I said:
"Whoa.. I just had a crazy thought about Jason.... Im going to run it by my mother to see if it is logically viable right quick. Be back in a week."
Not useful to the game.
Either spill it.. or shut up about it and just tell us when after you have two-head-approval. Hydra self-reference is

not useful

.. and although I have townread on YOUR SLOT, I am starting to think it is a scumtell in general.

[camn]

OK, Plez. Here.

Camn - Do you really suspect people who give no reasons for their votes ...blah.... what are you doing here?

Cerulean- Encouraging us out of the RVS. Randomly naming names is the worst kind of first page. But- no longer relevant.

Do you feel better?
More importantly.. have I cleared anything up for you? Is something that was unclear now clear? Please tell us your conclusions..
Because me ignoring questions that dont actually help the game (that is, your question about if I answered a different question)- I do that for a reason. To avoid polluting the game with crap-spam.
I also protest the hydra stuff for the same reason....

to avoid polluting the thread with crap

.

Why? Because it is in the scum's best interest to fill the thread with nonsense that does

nothing

to expose ANYONE's alignment.
So if you are town, and you want to win, then think about it.
If you like stupid ego-wars, and that is more important to you than winning, OR if you are scum.. then keep it up. Me- i will continue to protest things that work against a town win.. because I actually like to win.

Re: Vifam- Now. Today. Thats when I decided. BT rang my bell, I ISO'd Vifam, and went wow. scummy.
What do you conclude from the timeline of my suspicions? Anything? Or was that just a question for the sake of chainsawing your partner? I actually want to know. WHAT DID YOU JUST LEARN?

And Hydra self-reference certainly can be a scumtell. Cerulean alluded to it already-

"look they're trying to fake hydra dissonance since everyone thinks that's town."

And before you say it- I understand that there may actually be real hydra dissonance.... but telling the real from the fake is the name of the game, right? If I think someone is faking a discussion with thier partner... or making too much of a SHOW of it, thats scummy.

This is the solo-equivalent to hydra self reference-

"GOSH! This game is SO HARD!
I totally have NO IDEA who the scum are!!? Hmmm..
Let me think.... who could it be?
omg imso confusednow.
Everytime I think I has it figured out... I dont!
Because I am TOTALLY a member of the uninformed majority!!!"

[camn]

Cerulean asked if you thought voting with no reason was scummy.

Ok.. I am taking a break from this conversation after this, because it is not fruitful, and it bores me.... but this was not the real question.. and it was

also

not

something I ever claimed, nor voted anyone for in this game. Do you actually understand that? Because if you are going to pick at details, it would be better if you were precise about things.

In fact- I agree with you... and if you would actually read the thread you would see that. RVS votes without even the semblance of a reason- they suck. They deserve

my

RVS vote, but they dont actually make anyone scum. Which I know, you know, Cerulean knows, and Cerulean KNOWS that I know, which is what prompted the question- "what are you (camn) doing?".
I answered it, and Cerulean was apparently satisfied with the answer... and then you jump in like a hippo asking if I answered it as a desperate attempt to attack me for SOMETHING since I voted for you. I'm onto you.

And now, I apologize to everyone, I have wasted my 30 minutes worth of free mafia time this weekend talking about NOTHING.
I will not return to this topic, for the sake of the game. And please.. dont let me break my rule again: dont argue with scum.

[camn]

FoS: McStab

You can do better than that. Jason is town.

[camn]

BT- I dont really understand your post, or your questions?

Truthfully? I think Plezzie is doing a pretty good job of defending themselves, and I am softening my opinion on them. I think it is interesting that you are defending them as much as you are, but Im going to file that away for future reference. I'm not interested in restating my posts from last week right now.
In re: your 'questions'/insults- I really am not sure what you are looking for... and I'm also not interested in talking about hydras any more.
I certainly AM stubborn, but I try not to be.
Some times.

[camn]

I'm sick and tired of his fucking bull shit.

ooOOoo.. big man!

[camn]

Absta's thing looks horribly contrived anyways.

Oh, yes. I agree.

And Jason- Weak and gut is all I got at this point. You know I can barely keep everyone straight day 1 in a MINI.. not to mention a hydra-filled large.
That's why I lust for blood... to get the numbers down

[camn]

I will, though.

[camn]

OK.. I can see that.
I read that as Cerulean still carrying on a little bit about our ADMITTEDLY OFF TOPIC discussion of hydras.. But reading it now I can see what you are saying.

Cerulean- is that what that was? were you defending Plez against me?

[camn]

List reads (or whatever you call them) are not proper reads or effective scumhunting.

I agree. Its not a great hunting tool.

But

it DOES lock scum into a position on someone. That can be referred back to at a later time... forcing the scum into certain plays later in the game. For instance say, their townread (who is actually town) starts to get run up.. they cant just hammer them, cuz it's their townread. To mention just ONE example of the usefulness of list-reads. Not to mention the placement of their buddies on the spectrum.
Which is why I use/demand them from time to time. (which I am not doing right now.) It winnows the scum's options down as the game progresses. Strategy, man!

In other strategic news:

I don't think Zach's the guys to lie about activity: post 490

My read of the famous DGB-scumtell , "RL Excuses", is slightly different.
I could be wrong, but my read of it is this:
Scum are more likely to USE actual real-life excuses.
We all have RL stuff going on... except chesskid.... but when we are TOWN, we dont bother mentioning it more than once. Because our town righteousness shines through regardless of what we do- we dont NEED to bring it up every second.. But as SCUM, we are hypersensitive to things like, our activity level (amongst others), and thus we are inclined to excessively point out the REASONS for our lapses.

Thus- RL excuses = scum.

Like all tells, its not 100%. But the odds are there.

[camn]

a- DAY ONE content is solid gold later in the game, DV. Skip it if you must right now.. but I personally encourage it. We mine it in endgame.
Of course, later in the game it is LESS valuable, and more easily fabricated by scum.

b- real life excuses. The McStab/Zdenek is scum.

[camn]

/yawn at Absta.

if I wanted to say something was scummy... I would use that word instead of the word 'hypocrisy'.
And if townies never did scummy things, there would never be any mislynches. But seriously.... the Hydra talk is off topic, out of game, and not relevant. Talk to someone else about it if you want.

[camn]

camn, why are you voting me

h8ers gunna h8

This is classic scum.
"Im not bothered, guys See? See how un-bothered I am?"

and why did you think that Plessiezarus was bussing?

because back then I had a scumread on then (which is resolving due to their play since), and they had an isolated vote on you, which is a typical place for scum to lay their buss-vote early on. Then later.. days later, when their partner flips the implication is there that they were totally ready to kill Day 1.


Clear? Now more Zdenek votes please.

[camn]

I almost had a heart attack when I saw the red.

"Hey look guys! I got a town pm! I swear!"

F-ing precisely.

I'm gonna be honest here. I still haven't read those Plessiezarus case walls. My eye just kinda glaze over when I see them. Will read soon though.

They are actually worth reading. I think Plez might be town.

[camn]

1) Your pointing that out wasn't particularly convincing. (hint: there's a difference between acting nonchalant about a vote yet explaining why the person is wrong and just acting nonchalant about the vote) 2) even if you're right, why does this make camn scum?

To me, the difference is ACTING nonchalant, when in reality you are worried, because scum are generally more hypersensitive to heat.. and BEING nonchalant, because there is no actual heat.
The truth is, McStab's h8tergonnah8 comment was just the nail in the coffin. the rest was just my FEELINGS.
Plus, Librarian, you bring up a good point in 2). Are scum more or less likely to be hypocrites? Especially experienced scum? Or am I WIFOMing right now? I think hypocrisy and scummieness can certainly co-exist, but are separate entities.

@absta- I really feel like addressing your 'points' would be arguing with scum. And by that, I use the Spyrex definition.
Tighten up your questions, and I will consider them.

[camn]

Sorry guys-drunk this weekend.

Camn,

Can you explain what besides "h8ers gonna hate" that made you think Mcstab was scum?

No.
That slot is off the table today.

unvote

I'll read more tomorrow.

[camn]

OK.. since focus is in order here:

TheGreatestAmericanHero

I dont like his early posts. 66, 76, 16.. they all seem very .. externalized. they are questions about why people thing whatever.. and seem like a mask . No real personal opinions. Which I think is scummy.. but their later posts get away from that, and I am not sure I am sold on them as scum.
I can maybe see it, though, and I CERTAINLY will hammer at deadline.

ActionDan

His entry post was scummy, but I do think we shouldn't default-lynch him... though even if his claim is TRUE.. I dont know how useful it is. IIRC, I had a similar role as scum and just crushed the town with it... but I was crushing that game in general, so whatev. I certainly dont see how a few UNCONFIRMED people in a qt together is helpful to the town at all, unless he somehow could get them confirmed- so they could plot. That role seems like a sideshow-distraction to me, and as likely to be scum as not.

Zdenek

This role is totally worth aborting the lynch over, as has been done. I support that, and see no reason to guide his targets.
However.. I think anyone who gets his message overnight should immediately report it in thread.. and Zdenek will only be confirmed by the DEATH of one of the reportees.. and a town flip there. If by some shenanigans that doesn't happen.. thenwe rethink that slot.

OTHER NEWS:

I am feeling nice townvibes from Benmage.
I dont have a good alternative lynch to TGAH.
Off the cuff? absta101, ChannelDelibird, Safetydance or BT.
But I am not ready to really push there.
I think we should keep Jason in the game anther day, as well.

must pass out now.

[camn]

OK.. lets talk absta.
I think we could manage a counter-wagon if we tried... but I am really bringing this up as a backup just in case TGAH claims his way out of the lynch somehow.

Absta Is likely scum. An if he ISNT scum.. he is not particularly useful as town, and wouldnt be the worst mislynch. Here is why:
I am of the opinion that scum KNOW low activity sets off warning bells.. and they ALSO know that actually exposing themselves, especially early, either gives them away or severely limits their options later in the game. Thus, they try to LOOK busy... but SAY nothing. Here are examples:

first.. a number of Absta's early posts are setup speculation and other chatter. Great to talk about.. says nothing about your alignment.

Spoiler: Early nonsense.

I haven't watched season 1 in a year or so but from what I can remember there shouldn't be any white people in town.

@Benmage - The kind of speed where I leave and come back to see 3/2 extra pages.

@Nost - Stringer Bell / Avon are the leaders of the barksdale org in the show. Outing them would be dumb.

There's quite a lot of hydras here huh...

Have I played a game with you before? Your name sounds familiar.

Next- the RL excuses tell.
I breifly mentioned it earlier. I think it is real.
I cram in 'complains about speed" in the same tell-category. It happens to everyone, but scum are more likely to use it as an excuse.

Spoiler: RL excuses

I'm not used to this speed. My activity/effort should get better after this friday which is my last exam. Not sure if I've already mentioned that.

Fuck that, there's too much.

@peta - I wanted to catch up fully before I voted.

Stop fucking posting so much. I've been sitting here trying to post this fucking post. FUCK!

Fuck this, i'm still like 10 pages behind. I'm going to skip a few (A LOT) the next time I post.

Seriously, go fuck yourself. I'm not going to finish reading 10+ (boring) pages when one of you voters could just tell me.

Last, and though it may seem OMGUS-ey since its me, someone else also mentioned it as well.. His attack on me is not only shallow and contrived... it is classic scum, since it is a nonstarter. I am not a viable lynch, he has no support.. and thus he can actually make a LOT of noise about it, and seem like he is doing a lot of 'hunting'... with no risk of actually mislynching me and catching a ton of heat for it. The very definition of crap-casing:

Spoiler: crapcase

You know what?
VOTE: Camn
I'm sick and tired of his fucking bull shit.

People should vote Camn for what I brought up.

Why is Camn town exactly?

Wtf, she's not confused, she's scum. Vote her.

How am I the only one who sees this shit? ...The only reason her read became weak is because it needed to so that she could vote McStab with Plez on the same waggon as her.

More votes on Camn please.

So.. my townie brethren.. take a gander at those quotes and decide for yourself. Town? Scum? Worth keeping alive? VigBait?
And understand. I will hammer TGAH if it comes down to it. But for now...

VOTE: ABSTA

[camn]

...and their failure to claim here is a problem for me.

for me as well. I would like to see that claim. Sooner rather than later.


On a different note, how would you rate the post above you on a townieness scale... 1 being "NOT TOWNY" and 10 being "TOTALLY CONF-TOWN"?

[camn]

I have to come in and see this shit from Camn? Just look at how selective she's been with her evidence. Fucking scum.

To my town brethren, I must point out... In my case I direct-quoted

parts

of 17 out of Absta's total of 34 posts (50%). No paraphrasing. No misrepresentations. Direct quotes.. with my interpretation of what the motivations behind them were.
A quick review of Absta's so=called 'case' on me shows 7 direct quotes out of my total of 37 (19%).

For clarity

... I point this out not to say that being 'selective' is scummy... and

not even that hypocrisy is scummy

..... but to show you that I am actually being quite comprehensive, as far as presenting cases goes, unlike some players.
Usually things hinge on a post or two out of dozens. Mine encompasses half the man's posts, with little in the way of word-twisting or misrepresentation. Like Absta's misreps here, which I actually DO find scummy:

Spoiler: Absta revises history whilst building a crapcase. e.g shit that never happened.

he's just jumped on McStab because a few players were saying "hmm, McStab is lynchable"

How is it scummy for him to ask you why and not state why himself? You could easily ask him "why", so I don't see the scum motivation in this. Terrible reason for calling him scummy.

The only reason her read became weak is because it needed to so that she could vote McStab with Plez on the same waggon as her.

...instead you've responded with "I don't like the way those questions look, could you make them stand out a bit more"

How many times are you going to dodge what I present to you?

[camn]

I don't see Absta going today... I could honestly go for either of them tomorrow though as good lynches

Jason- lets see that vote. ActionDan is not an option.
you, too, SafteyDance. If you are holding out for the hammer.. hold your vote on Absta.

[camn]

Not sure what the point is though. You'd have to get those off the TGAH for it to get anywhere near lynchable

I explained...Its a viable back-up plan against shenanigans.
And actually.. I just need ONE person from the TGAH wagon.

[camn]

I don't have the energy to read this camnvabstas....

You don't need to- its not urgent.
I think TGAH is probably inevitable.

Its more for later.. and, you know, just in case.
I have been doing better lately, but it is not unheard of for me to be quickly and mercilessly killed N1.

You guys really want the hammer? i think a final post would be nice from TGAH. Maybe a claim. Maybe a scumlist?

[camn]

camn that case on absta would have been great like three days ago when people might have actually been able to shift to him.

It will hold for tomorrow
And people could shift. They are just full of apathy. There are fully 7 people NOT on the TAGH wagon that could join.
But they have their votes elsewhere. Which is telling, IMO.

BUUT ..If no one wants a counterwagon, I dont see any reason to wait on hammering. Does anyone?

[camn]

Who are your partners, Hero?

[camn]

Jesus I just pulled my extra-ocular muscles from rolling my eyes too hard.

Lets

just

look at the last point, since I dont actually think saying 'DID NOT!' is a valid defense...

post #288. Again, more to that post than the single sentence you provided. I gave two reads below the ( --- ). Also, this post came 9 minutes after my previous post which gave a read on Jason.

I take it absta is claiming that that was something other than 'chatter', in my words.
As if his 'reads' are useful.
Lets look at the post in question.. and

the town can be the judge

.
Keep in mind.. this is one of Absta's exemplars of his overwhelming townieness, no?

That was back when I gave a fuck and was on tryhard mode

Vifam is scum for using the word tryhard.

Have I played a game with you before? Your name sounds familiar.
---

Petapan is prob scum finding it hard to create reads.

DV is slight town due to meta (from memory).

QED.

[camn]

2-shot Modified Rolecop and traitor to the PO-lice

Open question, which is needed for association tells-
Does this mean TGAH was, role-wise, a 'TRAITOR", as in he was unknown to the rest of the police? Or did they all know he was with them?

Theme wise I think the former.... but I am not a good one for setups.

[camn]

Dont sweat absta.
He was rookie scum who got crushed by me and was frustrated by it.
Its not unusual.
He was probably thinking he was 'caught for the wrong reasons'.. and he is too new to realize he was actually caught for the RIGHT reasons.

And all this chatter about me- I would ignore it. There is no amount of bussing that I would be unwilling to do, as scum, and thus it is all WIFOM.
That said, I happen to be town this game, and I am in love with our unknown vigilante for believing in me

Now- let me reread for associations.

[camn]

I dont get what you are saying... hammer-revenge?

and do we need night claims from you?

[camn]

nm, she didnt even hammer....

[camn]

OK.. association wise Im not really seeing much.
Absta is rookie scum, thus IN GENERAL it seems likely his RVS vote was on scum, and later votes on town.
This is slightly consistent. He RVS'd

petapan

, then unvotes in 134, despite a continued 'scumread' on that slot. This is reiterated 150 posts later....

Petapan is prob scum finding it hard to create reads.

But his vote is nowhere! Why unvote your 'scumread'? because its your partner.
of course suddenly.. in 432 and 514... he has a townread on that slot.
THEN.. after Dan replaced in, he pretty much ignores the position entirely.

To me, this reeks of Action-Dan scum via absta tells.
So, I would like some confirmation of Dan's night play, and more importantly a reason that he is town, or that his role is even useful.

TGAH is tougher. Looking back, he plays classic traitor.
I would expect him to be very conflicted.. he cant attack scum too much- because he then earns the nightkill. But he cant aggressively attack townies.. cuz then he gets lynched. So shit, he has to avoid everything.. which is reflected in his voting patterns. I am inclined to give towncred to the people he voted... especially given the fact he was so lackluster about them all. If he was going after scum.. he could have gone HARD. as it was, he knew he was attacking town, and didnt even have his buddies to watch out for him.

Poor little guy.

td:lr
Based on association tells:

TOWN

:
benmage
Nostredeus
Jason

SCUM

:

petapan

Action Dan

[camn]

@camn: Could you explain the town read on benmage based on associative tells? I see the others, that one is eluding me.

Simply based on TGAH avoiding ANY votes on scum, including his RVS vote.
Its just a data point, no hard clearance at all.. but there it is.

[camn]

We were trying to mke sense of the modified role cop and wonder if it's possible that they only knew the identity of a couple cops but not the others. Does this make sense?

Maybe.. but I doubt it.
The rolecop was to ID certain ROLES amongst the TOWNteam. If it was an ALIGNMENT cop it would have a different name. God knows what the modification was.

[camn]

vote: actiondan

[camn]

Your role is useless to the town.
It is a smokscreen.

You are trying to use it to make you valuable, but it doesn't.
I don't even care who you meighborized... because it doesn't help us catch scum.

[camn]

There are values to having neighborhoods and for it's members to be undisclosed.

Name them. The values.

[camn]

[redacted]
But.. tell me more, Dan. What other advantages may there be?
How will they 'scumhunt more effectively' in private?

[camn]

his story if effing swiss cheese.

Cuz, Like, when I wanna scumhunt better.. I bounce my ideas off someone who I think might be scum, right?
But MAYBE they are town, so I get them to claim, and maybe accidentally tell the scum their role.

Its like scumdaytalk+rolefishing.

Dan, admit it. You are scum, yes?

Tell me your ideal three person neighborhood.

[camn]

Well I've felt pretty abused since I came into this game so I don't really care.

I'm sorry you have felt abused.
this can be a stressful game sometimes.

Will you tell us your top 3 scumpicks before you go?

[camn]

kuribo- fullclaim now.

[camn]

UNVOTE

nonsense aside, there are worse players to have in the game.

And regarding NKA-
maybe the scum have a heart, and a long memory, and they know how sad I was when I was getting nightkilled N1 every game...and took pity on my poor soul. My poor, inflated-ego soul.
Or absta foolishly thought he could take me in a 1v1. Which, I say withOUT ego, would have been impossible
Or 1M other reasons not worth discussing, cuz NKA is low yield, imo.

[camn]

drunkposts are best.

[camn]

Seriously? peta? the guy's a fucking troll. He probably masturbates while he thinks of new ways to fuck with people.

Cant think of a better reason to lynch someone. We cant have that in endgame if we wanna win.

@camn, this is not a loaded question, but: in this game, do you murder people at night as a member of a third party?

I dont do

anything

as a third party this game.

[camn]

dan said in the neighbor QT that he felt bullied by you, but you've played with me before and you know I don't get bullied

And you know I am not a bully!
I'm sweet!


(But if I DID have death on my side... that would help my bargaining position, generally.)

[camn]

You're supposed to have some reads.

All mine flipped.

Omg classic, scum reading their predecessors iso. ScumQT, you name it. Why is he alive?

Agreed. It tickled me when he replaced in I think a real townie would have just told me to shove it BEFORE reading. But I like giving kuribo a little rope to play with, you know?

ANY VOTES NOT FOR ME OR BEN IS TANTAMOUNT TO A FUCKING SCUM CLAIM

Hmm. 1v1s are dumb. If this continues my vote will be on kuribo.

[camn]

ven ben admitted that he had misunderstood what I said, so my question to you is "are you illiterate?"

Except I actually understood what you said.
You read my 'request'. You thought you would tell me to shove it. Then you went and read your QT. Then you changed your mind.
It tickles me.

[camn]

she's either SK or town, her interaction with absta would require incredibly ballsy bussing

I thought I mentioned it- there is no limit to my ability to buss.

VOTE: CHANNELDELIBIRD

a) he seems nervous.
b) RL excuses
c) He mentioned he was scum last game... which is him trying to use the biggest cognitive fallacy in all of statistics against us. Subtle, but not too subtle for me to notice.

[camn]

she's either SK or town, her interaction with absta would require incredibly ballsy bussing

I thought I mentioned it- there is no limit to my ability to buss.

What's the point of this?

Must I tell you?

[camn]

Procrastinating and having to work are not scumtells for me.

Have you been skimming?
Its OK if you have.

[camn]

I am ok with BT scum, I think.

Oh.. ps- I am sick as hell.. I almost had my appendix out today... which means I am stuck at home and will have more time for mafia. So watch yourselves

[camn]

I think it is reasonable to think that since the scum actually thought they could mislynch me yesterday, before Absta got ruthlessly vigged, they were a bit out of sorts today, and scattered in re: their strategy to deal with me.

in fact... lets lynch BT.

UNVOTE
VOTE : BT

case to follow.

[camn]

My thoughts on the Day one play of

15)

Vifam

BT

OK..
First of, Vifam.
Read his ISO, and you will see the most scummy, worthless run of posts ever created.
He pretty much complains of how slow the game is (while posting no content), and then complains about 'too much text', which to me means its too FAST, no? While providing no content. There is nothing there. He is terrible. I would lynch him on this alone.
Notably, he does put petapan on a scumlist, and he does completely ignore absta calling him (vifam) scum... but meh.

Then BT replaces in with some content.. including

Someone who knows Absta should give me their opinion on #134. It's either scum being stupid nitpicky or town being stupid nitpicky...

plus a rather unhealthy fixation on myself- which was addressed at the time. Of course, looking back.. with everything there was to comment on, wasting 2 long posts on something that I had specifically noted was off-topic is easy scum-content.

Of course.. despite having a LOT to say about me and Cerulean's discussion (which was not even oppositional), he has NOTHING to say about me and absta's discussion... which was

fully

oppositional. Nothing AT ALL. Hmm. Not a single mention.

hmm.

[camn]

I just deleted a rant about this setup talk. It wasnt useful.


But please. . . please stop. It hurts.

[camn]

Optimal town play right now is to fucking lynch me and remove the distraction, so get on with it.

If you put it that way....

UNVOTE,
VOTE KURIBO.

I cant

None of us can take another day of this.

[camn]

a poor strategy for scum....... but certainly worth lynching over. CERTAINLY.

[camn]

Can we Lynch BT, guys? Please?

C

[camn]

Opps.. the using-an-alt-to-check-your-scumgame tell?

UNVOTE
VOTE KISE

And sot/zack.. its hard to do LARGE formatting from my phone.. thus my last post.
But now there is a good old fashioned lurkerlynch.. so lets do it

[camn]

ffs then I forgot to large format.

[camn]

Its closely related to the "lurk-until-you-start-to-catch-votes" tell. scum.

[camn]

Oh yeah, and scum totally claim doctor in a bind. It's like the oldest trick in the book.

[camn]

First off... I am paying attention, kuribo. Close attention. I have just shifted my strategy in a way you dont yet understand

Second...qft

I lynch scum. Kise has done zilch this game. I do not allow PR claims to change my judgement.

Third.. understand

I am willing to hammer Kise

. Per above, I totally agree with Benmage on this point.

Fourth... if we need a counterwagon-

UNVOTE:
VOTE KURIBO

Fifth.. I totally frown on running up any unclaimed right now. We are ahead. We can lynch on play.

[camn]

Not that I don't want kuribo dead.....I want kuribo dead.

But

,

UNVOTE
VOTE : BT

[camn]

I want you dead because of your negative influence on the game. We cant tolerate another day like today
If you are unhappy AT ALL with the state of conversation today.. you have only to look at yourself for the reason.

Of course, if you are scum- well played.
Today was a good day for the scum, regardless of the lynch.
Hopefully tomorrow will be better.

Lynch please.
I will hammer Dayne if you guys can get the votes, but I think BT is a better lynch.

[camn]

again, I will hammer Dayne if I can.
I will check in again before deadline.

And kuribo- not the benmage thing. ALL of it. Your last post included.
There has been little room for an intelligent Lynch today, in bulk because of your play. If that is what you want, then keep it up. If you think we ARE lynching intelligently, keep it up.
Otherwise, just think it over tonight, and maybe tomorrow can be better.

[camn]

UNVOTE
VOTE SER ARTHUR DAYNE

[camn]

Oops. Sorry, cerulean. I missed your post.

[camn]

OK, people.
First off, those so-called 'breadcrumbs' are an insult to me.
I am the fucking queen of breadcrumbing, and that shit it just white noise.

Secondly, its time to get serious. Reading wise.
I am of the school of thought that the first two days show us all the scum. It is all written there in the thread.. so I implore everyone- re-read if you can. Re-read as much as you can. Lets get after it.

As per tradition, It is time for me to offer my reads based on skimming ISOs. I will try to avoid reading associatively here.. I will iso.
Also as per tradition, I will not elaborate on town-reads here. Not optimal.
Also- this is the first of a few waves of D1/D2 re-reading. It is the shallow cut
I do this to clarify my thinking and narrow the pool.

Spoiler: CAMNS-ISO READS for POE:

Cerulean

I have a faint

town

feeling here, but I am wary with hydras. they mess with me sometimes.

Plessiezarus

I still hold a

TOWN

read here from D1.

Benmage

TOWN

. #138. Though Benmage is excellent as scum.. he not good enough to scare me out of keeping him till endgame- if I make it . If I dont, you guys should double-check this slot.

JasonT1981

Maybe scum! rereading day one his posts seem very outward focused. Like he is hiding somethin.. BUT I did read him as town at the time.. so ima waffle a bit here.

maybescum

.

camn

obvtown

Zdenek

soft confirmed

TOWN

for now..will hard confirm when one of his targets townflips.. (benmage, plessie?)

The Mini-Librarian

#307 could be a bus..some mild suspicion.. a rather quick jump to a wagon on likely town..but I am a fan of his D2 play. I think

TOWN

..

Deasvail

- fart. I am starting to get tored. I think

TOWN

here... but its soft.

BT

- his reactions to the late push on him yesterday were good.. but I think there is enough uncertainty about this slot that it should NOT be allowed to endgame... but likely will.

town?

Im torn.

kuribo

-

TOWN

. Bad for the town-town... but town.

Nostredeus

Suggesting nameclaim in the first post is pretty balls for scum.

ChannelDeliBird

SCUM

. Im actuly proposing RVS BUSSING and COACHINGas real tells here. I know there MIGHT be daytalk, but not for sure right?

Kise

Lurking scum

. As in prob scum, lurking too hard, cant really tell.

OK.. That puts the final scum (unknown number) in the following pool, in my thinking:

[

Jason, BT, ChannelDeliBird, Kise

]

I think the Vig/SK is probably in that pool as well, but meh. I havnt really thought about that.

[camn]

@kise - As noted, I am not expanding townreads at this time. I will expand on BT during pass 2.

[camn]

@zd- I use the term loosely. At this point there is no way to distinguish a vig from a SK, other than florid speculation.

[camn]

I don't really know what you are asking. Day play?
What do I know about an unknown night player's day game?

This is how I see it:
certain players might be have nightkills, based on my assessment of target interaction.
Certain players might be scum, based on anti-town play.
these are completely independent variables, in my mind.
Having a nightkill doesn't make you town.

I use the word "vig" for convenience this early in the game, to indicate a solo nightkiller. Alignment is independent of this, like almost every power role.

I apologize if that's confusing- I will try and be more clear in the future.

[camn]

Zzz?

Read day 1 again. Tell us what you see.

[camn]

[Jason, BT, ChannelDeliBird, Kise]

OK.. this sucks, because I love blood, and my pool is getting too narrow.... but I am finding some serious town evidence on a couple of these.

IN RE: JASON

.
the gambit is real.

Spoiler: The Evidence

I don't like black people, I'm requesting a white man role

^^^^

you must be a member of the cops then lol

Just out of interest does anyone have a white person PM? This is semi-important.

EXACTLY

Way to blow my gambit ffs.

Yea but there is not one white person in the Barksdale crew from memory. So anyone claiming a white guy would be not town.

So the key here is something that Cerulean pointed out on page 6. Follow Jason's thought process here:
- some one says they wanna be a white guy-
- Jason immediately says that that would be a scumclaim (wisely, I think, since he didnt think about the lawyer)
- then he backs up and puts together a crappy, poorly planned 'gambit' to catch out anyone with a white guy role PM.
I say the very ineptitude of it shows us that it was

genuine

. He

really did

just think of it right there.. then went for it. That, my friends, is townplay.

NOW- ASSUMING there are actually white guys on the scumteam, I think this is strong town-evidence for Jason, because scumJason would have known there were white guys!
Of course, that has yet to be proven. If it turns out

all

the scum are NOT white.. (which I doubt), then Jason is simply.. brilliant.

Either way, for today I am against a Jason-lynch.

More to follow.. but for now,
[

Jason

,

BT, ChannelDeliBird, Kise

]

[camn]

I know its not HARD, but the

authenticity

of the gambit is what gets me... he really did think it up right there on the spot, dont you think?
Fielding that would be reckless for scum, imo.
I think he deserves another day or two.. maybe another scumflip?... there must be a white cop, no?

[camn]

Fair enough.
and I certainly agree that Dayne was a suboptimal Lynch.

[camn]

OK. Kise is town.

no, kise is a doctor.

[camn]

Kise, why would you think your role meant SK over vig?

Because it is a 1-shot protection of his scumbuddies from an SK...

[camn]

OK.. there were too many votecounts for me to include them all.. so I picked every 5.
Here is raw data, with Zd as conftown:

Spoiler: Day One VC data

DAY 1, VOTECOUNT 10

TheGreatestAmericanHero

(1) -

sottyrulez

Shadoweh

(3) - The Mini-Librarian, Nostredeus, Baby Spice

Ser Arthur Dayne

(2) - jasonT1981,

Safetydance

JastonT1981 (3) -

Ser Arthur Dayne

, Cerulean, Deasvail
Nostredeus (3) - Vifam,

TheGreatestAmericanHero

,

McStab

Plessiezarus (1) - Benmage

Safetydance

(1) - ChannelDelibird
DeasVail (1) - petapan
Plessiezarus (1) - camn
The Mini-Librarian (1) - Shadoweh

Not voting (2): Plessizarus,

absta101

DAY 1, VOTECOUNT 15

TheGreatestAmericanHero

(1) -

sottyrulez

Shadoweh

(2) - Nostredeus, Baby Spice

Ser Arthur Dayne

(2) - jasonT1981,

Safetydance

JasonT1981 (3) -

Ser Arthur Dayne

, Cerulean, Vifam
Nostredeus (2) -

TheGreatestAmericanHero

,

McStab

Safetydance

(4) - ChannelDelibird,

absta101

, petapan, Deasvail
Plessiezarus (1) - camn
The Mini-Librarian (1) - Shadoweh

absta101

(1) - The Mini-Librarian
petapan (1) - Benmage

McStab

(1) - Plessiezarus

Not voting (0): No one



DAY 1, VOTECOUNT 20

Shadoweh

(1) - Baby Spice
JasonT1981 (4) -

Ser Arthur Dayne

, Cerulean, BT,

TheGreatestAmericanHero

Safetydance

(6) - ChannelDelibird,

absta101

, petapan, Deasvail,

McStab

,

sottyrulez

The Mini-Librarian (1) - Shadoweh
petapan (3) - Benmage, The Mini-Librarian,

Safetydance

McStab

(3) - Plessiezarus, camn, Nostredeus

Not voting (1): JasonT1981



DAY 1, VOTECOUNT 25

Shadoweh

(1) - Baby Spice
JasonT1981 (4) -

Ser Arthur Dayne

, Cerulean, BT,

TheGreatestAmericanHero

Safetydance

(3) - ChannelDelibird, petapan,

Zdenek

petapan (2) - The Mini-Librarian,

Safetydance

Zdenek

(5) - Plessiezarus, camn, Nostredeus, Deasvail, Benmage

absta101

(1) - Shadoweh
camn (1) -

absta101

TheGreatestAmericanHero

(1) -

sottyrulez

Not voting (1): JasonT1981



DAY 1, VOTECOUNT 30

Shadoweh

(1) - Baby Spice
JasonT1981 (5) - Cerulean, BT,

TheGreatestAmericanHero

,

Zdenek

,

Ser Arthur Dayne

Safetydance

(1) - ChannelDelibird
ActionDan (2) - The Mini-Librarian,

Safetydance

Zdenek

(5) - Plessiezarus, camn, Nostredeus, DeasVail, Benmage

absta101

(1) - Shadoweh
camn (1) -

absta101

TheGreatestAmericanHero

(2) -

sottyrulez

. ActionDan

Not voting (1): JasonT1981



DAY 1, VOTECOUNT 35

Shadoweh

(1) - Kise
JasonT1981 (3) - BT,

TheGreatestAmericanHero

,

Zdenek

Safetydance

(1) - ChannelDelibird
ActionDan (5) -

Safetydance

,

Ser Arthur Dayne

, The Mini-Librarian, JasonT1981, Benmage

Zdenek

(2) - camn, Nostredeus

absta101

(1) - Shadoweh
camn (1) -

absta101

TheGreatestAmericanHero

(4) -

sottyrulez

, Plessiezarus, ActionDan, DeasVail

Not voting (1): Cerulean



DAY 1, VOTECOUNT 40 AKA END OF DAY VOTECOUNT

JasonT1981 (3) - BT,

TheGreatestAmericanHero

,

Zdenek

ActionDan (1) - JasonT1981
camn (1) -

absta101

TheGreatestAmericanHero

(10) -

sottyrulez

, Plessiezarus, ActionDan, DeasVail, The Mini-Librarian, ChanelDelibird, Shadoweh,

Ser Arthur Dayne

, Benmage,

Safetydance

Plessiezarus (1) - Kise

absta101

(1) - camn

Not voting (2): Cerulean, Nostredeus

[camn]

and day 2
analysis to follow.

Spoiler: Day 2

DAY 2, VOTECOUNT 10

ChannelDeliBird (3) - Plessiezarus,

Zdenek,

The Mini-Librarian
kuribo (2) - Cerulean, JasonT1981
JastonT1981 (2) -

sottyrulez,

ChannelDelibird

sottyrulez,

(1) - Nostredeus

Not voting (8) : Benmage,

Ser Arthur Dayne,

Safetydance,

Deasvail, BT, Kise, camn, kuribo



DAY 2, VOTECOUNT 15

ChannelDeliBird (5) - Plessiezarus,

Zdenek,

The Mini-Librarian, kuribo, camn
kuribo (5) - Cerulean, JasonT1981, Benmage, BT,

Ser Arthur Dayne

JastonT1981 (1) - ChannelDelibird

sottyrulez,

(1) - Nostredeus
Nostredeus (1) -

sottyrulez,

Not voting (3) :

ZONEACE

, Deasvail, Kise



DAY 2, VOTECOUNT 20

ChannelDeliBird (6) - Plessiezarus,

Zdenek,

The Mini-Librarian, kuribo, camn Nostredeus
kuribo (5) - Cerulean, JasonT1981, Benmage, BT,

Ser Arthur Dayne

Kise (1) -

sottyrulez,

BT (1) - Channeldelibird

Not voting (3) :

ZONEACE

, Deasvail, Kise




DAY 2, VOTECOUNT 25

ChannelDeliBird (1) - Plessiezarus
kuribo (5) - Cerulean, JasonT1981, Benmage, BT,

Ser Arthur Dayne

Kise (2) -

sottyrulez,

The Mini-Librarian
BT (3) - Channeldelibird, camn, kuribo

Ser Arthur Dayne

(1) - Deasvail

Not voting (4) :

ZONEACE

, Kise, Nostredeus,

Zdenek

DAY 2, VOTECOUNT 30

kuribo (4) - JasonT1981, Benmage,

Ser Arthur Dayne,

camn
Kise (2) - The Mini-Librarian, Cerulean
BT (3) - Channeldelibird, kuribo,

sottyrulez,

Ser Arthur Dayne

(2) - Deasvail, Plessiezarus

Not voting (5) :

ZONEACE

, Kise, Nostredeus,

Zdenek,

BT




DAY 2, VOTECOUNT 35

Kise (6) -

Ser Arthur Dayne,

sottyrulez,

Benmage, camn, BT, JasonT1981
BT (2) - Channeldelibird, kuribo

Ser Arthur Dayne

(4) - Deasvail, Plessiezarus,

Zdenek,

Kise

sottyrulez,

(1) - Nostredeus

Not voting (3) :

ZONEACE

, Cerulean, The Mini-Librarian




DAY 2, VOTECOUNT 40

Kise (1) - BT
BT (4) - Channeldelibird, Kise,

sottyrulez,

kuribo

Ser Arthur Dayne

(5) - Deasvail, Plessiezarus,

Zdenek,

JasonT1981, The-Mini Librarian

sottyrulez,

(1) - Nostredeus
Kuribo (3) - camn,

Ser Arthur Dayne,

Benmage

Not voting (2) :

ZONEACE

, Cerulean




DAY 2, VOTECOUNT 45

Kise (1) - BT
BT (4) - Kise, kuribo, Benmage,

Ser Arthur Dayne

Ser Arthur Dayne

(9) - Deasvail, Plessiezarus,

Zdenek,

JasonT1981, The-Mini Librarian, Nostredeus, ChannelDeliBird,

sottyrulez,

camn

Not voting (2) :

ZONEACE

, Cerulean

[camn]

shoot. Shadow got mistagged a couple times.

Anyway- no slam dunks... but lets look at the lynches.
I know there is a monkeywrench with TGAH being a traitor.. but whatev.

TheGreatestAmericanHero

(10) -

sottyrulez

, Plessiezarus, ActionDan, DeasVail, The Mini-Librarian, ChanelDelibird,

Shadoweh

,

Ser Arthur Dayne

, Benmage,

Safetydance

Ser Arthur Dayne

(9) - Deasvail, Plessiezarus,

Zdenek

, JasonT1981, The-Mini Librarian, Nostredeus, ChannelDeliBird,

sottyrulez

, camn

Ok.. I am giong to go with some giant assumptions here.
1- I am town
2- Actiondan/kuribo is town
and more outrageuously..
3- that TGAH wouldnt have pushed Nos or Jason as scum. that gives us:

TheGreatestAmericanHero

(10) -

sottyrulez

, Plessiezarus,

ActionDan

, DeasVail, The Mini-Librarian, ChanelDelibird,

Shadoweh

,

Ser Arthur Dayne

, Benmage,

Safetydance

Ser Arthur Dayne

(9) - Deasvail, Plessiezarus,

Zdenek

,

JasonT1981

, The-Mini Librarian,

Nostredeus

, ChannelDeliBird,

sottyrulez

,

camn

...which totally doesnt close the net nearly enough.
I was thinking that scum are MORE likely to be on theTGAH wagon.. and less on the SAD wagon, knowing it would go by deadline.. but the same fools are on both wagons.

MEH

.

[camn]

OK, Im with Ben.

VOTE CHANELDELIBIRD

You are scum.
And you are caught on rookie tells.

[camn]

Hey! I am not using VCA to justify my vote.
I did VCA hoping it would turn something up.....but like I SAID, and like you guys have also pointed out- it came up with nothing.
HOWEVER - I didn't know it would come up with nothing until I did it.
And a good VCA requires color coding, analysis over time (for wagon jumping) and a methodical approach. So I do it, and I find nothing. It seems like some of you are arguing I should have then NOT EVEN POSTED IT.... but certainly there is the chance that someone else might see something in the trends that I font, no?

[camn]

Premature submit!

Anyway... my vote is to get some wagoning happenjng, and for the reasons stated BEFORE the VCA...the tell mentioned in my player-by-player.
If that was unclear, I apologize. But it wasn't.

[camn]

Also- @Pless
Premature? One can do VCA as many times as one wants. Sorry you think I did it too soon. I hope I didn't waste too much hard drive space? What?

@CDB- are you mad cus you are caught for the wrong reasons?? How adorable

@nos-
Considering alternative lynches is a positive thing for the town. The TML wagon doesn't need my vote... and we all need more varied conversation.

PS..Nos gets town points for this. Scum love it when I color them green.

[camn]

Equinox: I am thirsty for your blood. I feel diverting from your lynch would be a bad idea at this point. Sorry. Also, hi.

Why

,

is there a mini wagon on you?

I added the comma you forgot. Because that IS why.

But srsly, equinox... you are about to die.
you don't have time to ease in.

[camn]

I like DVs commentary on BT more than I like the Librarian/equinox wagon.

Oh and Kise- gtfo. Only Shaft now.

[camn]

What signs?



Though ftr, I will generally endorse a Lynch on my townreads over a NO Lynch.

[camn]

Zd!
I see my wit was unappreciated.
When Jason brought up his gambit, I thought it was flawed, because there would obviously be fake claims.which is why I called it useless.
Of course... it persisted, so I suggested massclaim as an almost totally tounge-in-cheek one-uppance.
Of Scouse, massclaim is just as flawed as RACE claim.... thus the final explaination.

[camn]

Holy shit Pless is conf town.
I never thought of that... and it EXPLAINS EVERYTHING.

Why else would there even BE a neighborhood?
I have thought this whole time that that was a useless thing... an unconfirmed QT... but it is totally just in existence so it can be wiretapped.

Brilliant.
Both pless and the mod.
Brilliant.

[camn]

Also.. lets get practical here people.
we all have slightly different ideas on who is scum, this is clear.
It also feels like we are fatigued and wifomed out....but it is early. Its basically day one of a mini....so lets all play a game.
Let's assume for a second that all three, BT, TML, and Equinox, are all town, and we are all wrong about everything.
Which of those three presumed townies do you think are the least helpful to the game? Which one the most likely to totally screw us in endgame?
Because that townie must die.

[camn]

I know, right!

And sorry, delibird... I meant BT, Equinox and yourself, obviously.

[camn]

Camn - to answer your question: Nostredeus without a doubt, closely followed by Jason.

OF THE THREE ON THE TABLE!

And Equinox- I think the case against you is crap, and the BT case is moderate.

[camn]

To answer my own post- I think BT would be the biggest liability, given all three candidates are town.
For the record- I think Equinox is town, and CDB is scum.. and BT.. maybe scum.
But I am willing to push BT over Equinox, and save Delibird till later.

UNVOTE, VOTE BT

[camn]

I am not sure what CBD's point is.. but it is literally making me laugh out loud.
Only scum are burdened with consistency

As to your question, ben... he is nervous. He is scared that I'm going to eat him. So he is trying to attack my character.

Let me help-

I , camn, am mercurical, led by instinct, inconsistent, and irrational.

I have played whole YEARS where I

never

made a logical case, and simply lynched on revenge alone

.

I am dedicated to covering the world with a pool of

blood

!

But Im trying. I'm trying real hard... to be the shepard.
And to play a more rational game. Until then-

UNVOTE:
VOTE CHANELDELIBIRD

The dream of the scum is to cover the thread in shenanegans. That is how they win.
We must stomp out the perpetrators at the source.

[camn]

But.. but.. I was just starting to doubt my own ben-town-read! I need your insight!

[camn]

OMG!
Citing knowledge of your own scum-meta!

THATS THE OLDEST TELL IN THE BOOK!

And I, as scum, play an intricately orchestrated long-range strategy with multiple fakeclaims and complex manipulation of the town
EXHIBIT A
Ergo.. If I am truly so inconsistent... I MUST BE TOWN! ITS LOGICAL PROOF! AMIRITE??


pedit- ha ha kuribo. We could be friends after all

[camn]

There sure is a lot of attack on my character going on these days... but yeah, what Equinox said!

[camn]

But sir, I think you ARE going after me personally.. because the idea that you

actually

think I am doing this as scum isn't in my realm of thought. Because you KNOW who your partners are! Thus, you resort to the only thing you have.
But worry not.. I am not hurt. I am enjoying myself. Character attacks are the last refuge of caught scum, and they tickle me. They let me know I'm on the right track!
However- I DO apologize if my tone was 'snide'. I was going for 'praying mantis'.... I bear you no ill will.
BUT- being full blooded Irish, your British discomfort is like sweet honey to me

@Equinox- Im not that logical. I dont read you as scum. I

do

read Delibird as scum. All else is window dressing.
Cases? Tells? That shiz is all just tactics to me, and a way to clarify my thinking.
If I could just control the lynch solo for a couple days, I wouldn't need them, and this game would be over fast

(one way or the other!)

[camn]

Town.

And WAY more pro-town town today.

[camn]

But you know who is starting to annoy?
THESE GUYS-->

Not voting (5) : Cerulean, JasonT1981, Zdenek, Equinox, Shaft

[camn]

Ask him! His signal:noise is so much better! I love it.

Mine, otoh, has slipped.....

[camn]

I caught CDB?
I should probably go read that then....if I am of the opinion that no one learns from their mistakes and changes their play.

And Ples- I am too manic right now. Ill get to it when I calm down.

[camn]

I'm starting to have some second thoughts here.
CDBs recent angst has actually persuaded me that he might be town. I know I act unreasonable... but I do it for a reason, and that reason is to figure out who the scum are. Deli seems authentic in his hate... and if he actually believes I'm scum, he probably is town.

UNVOTE

Now... I have never bought the Librarian wagon... but I should take a harder look to explain why. However, I love Equinox so far...I think he is an asset to the game, and I don't wanna Lynch him.

BT I have a scum feeling about... but I think he has been pretty active and a more thourough read of him would be revealing.....

Hm.
I am also entertaining the idea of Benmage scum. I know I read him as town. I know this. But that's what he would want me to think.

Hm.

[camn]

Ill support the neighborhood.
Our goals align.

VOTE: BT

[camn]

And if I had a gun I would be lurkervigging Jason tonight.
Just like that.

[camn]

What is your point Ben?
I have selfvoted as scum before.

Kuribo gets a townread for WHY he was selfvoting, not the fact that he did.

[camn]

Yeah. Vigbait, big time.

Jason- with this play you are not living to endgame. Not on my watch.

[camn]

Now? Really?

[camn]

Yes, you are. He should be vigged for inactivity.

And kuribo- don't second guess.
If we both live, you will see.
I have a plan.

[camn]

That's exactly what has me second guessing you camn.

That's part of the plan

[camn]

Has anyone on the BT wagon been reading the game.

I have. Every excruciating page.

[camn]

asoif? Nerd.

[camn]

I agree Jason must die. I'm with you, Ben.

I think there is some clarity to be had in the playlist now.
I don't know if massclaim is really necessarry yet... but if someone has info, it could be worth it.

[camn]

hee hee.
A) I never have softclaimed. No matter how many times it gets said, it is still untrue. In fact, I have denied it before.
B) anyone AGAINST massclaim? Speak soon or it will start.
C) I am fine going first, but I do think it would be a little more optimal for me to go not-first. I actually think Jason should go first.
D) I also think its best to claim in waves.. first mass ROLE claim.. saving TARGETS for later on. So as to really put the pinch on any scum fake-power claims.

VOTE: JASON

[camn]

Camn should go first, she's been softclaiming vig for awhile now but she's still alive.

Also- I would love to hear kuribo's reasoning on this comment.

We have had 2 kills per night, yes?
It then follows that the scum have chosen NOT to kill me every night-- REGARDLESS OF MY ROLE.
So what is the inference here? That I am a vig AND a busdriver?

[camn]

:rolls eyes:

Just a couple answers first.

Are we OK with role-only first? It seems optimal to me.
And kuribo? Id like you to answer a priori.

[camn]

That is a good question... the why am I not dead.
The truth is, I was halfway trying to draw the nightkill, but here I am.

I'm vanilla.
I'm Donette .. DAngelos baby momma.
I thought that referencing don-ettes would be to obv, so I only spoke of regular doNUTs in my first post.

I want Benmage next

[camn]

I dont see how day-talk enabling would be necessarily town sided... what if it works for both the neighborhood AND the scum?

UNVOTE
VOTE: DEASVAIL.

In re: CDB- I am not buying his cases. The push on me is shortsighted, and I think he is likely scum- but I am not interested in a 1:1 right now... You guys can jump on me if you want, but it leads to a town-lynch with very little info to be gained, IMO. I wont be defending against peoples 'interpretations' of my D1. If you

actually

want to know what I was thinking, Ill try and answer- if I even remember.

HOWEVER, I think we need to clean up the townscape a little today.
Jason, be he town or Scum, is a bad choice to take into endgame. He had so little in the way of content, which means meager pickings when it actually matters.
DeasVail is less bad, but still suboptimal. Also, I am with Pless- I hate the claim.

My thinking at this stage of games is this: The lurkers, the light-content players.. they are either scum who are hiding, or they will totally be mislynched by active scum in endgame. I have seen it 1000 times, and I hate both outcomes- thus, the rope.
In short- I would rather have a 3:2 with all 5 having left full trails of posts to analyse than a 2:1 with one of the townies being a lurker- because the last is a town loss, almost every time. And a 2:1 with TWO lurkers? one town, one scum? Disaster.

Thus, I support a DV or Jason lynch today- and OF COURSE I support a CDB lynch.

[camn]

what if it works for both the neighborhood AND the scum?

It does.

As in, when you die the scum no longer daytalk?

[camn]

...
you are a scum power role.


...

[camn]

unvote

I'm baffled.

[camn]

SYNOPSIS:

Kuribo

- Wendell "Orlando" Blocker, 3-Shot Neighborizer

SHAFT

- Maurice Levy, Expensive Doctorof

Cerulean

- Roland "Wee-Bey" Brice, X-Shot Vigilante

Plessiezarus

- Wintell "Little Man" Royce, Vanilla

Benmage

- Perry, Vanilla

JasonT1981

- Brianna Barksdale, Vanilla

camn

- Donette, Vanilla

Deasvail

- Wallace, Daytalk enabler and 1-shot Bodyguard.

ChannelDeliBird

- Bird, Vanilla

[camn]

Kuribo - Wendell "Orlando" Blocker, 3-Shot Neighborizer
I have a townread here.. and I think it is a

town

ROLE, especially given that the POPO probably can listen in.

SHAFT- Maurice Levy, Expensive Doctor
Worth keeping alive. If real- he is killed before endgame. If not... we reconsider.

Cerulean - Roland "Wee-Bey" Brice, X-Shot Vigilante
As above- this is prime NK bait whether vig or SK. No lynch.

Deasvail - Wallace, Daytalk enabler and 1-shot Bodyguard.
This PR is up in the air.

I cant see the scum motivation in claiming this.

I also think DV should NOT claim whether or not he has targeted anyone........... to leave the scum guessing. If all these PR claims are true, the scum have work to do to avoid engame problem.
I figure 7/2 (at the worst).. which is 4/2 tomorrow... with a myslynch and a mysvig and a NK.
Thens, it is lynch to 3/2 or No-kill to 4/2 and nightplay is WAY in play with protections and the like... so the vanillas are all safe.

Which means our scum are likely in the vanilla pool.

Plessiezarus - Wintell "Little Man" Royce, Vanilla
Townread.

Benmage - Perry, Vanilla
Could be scum. Late game play has been problematical

JasonT1981 - Brianna Barksdale, Vanilla
Needs to die. Really.

camn - Donette, Vanilla
obv.

ChannelDeliBird - Bird, Vanilla
I still think scum, but has been playing better lately.

I think if we lynch/vig Jason and Benmage.... and if that doesnt end the game, and we have myself and delibird in a 5/1 or 4/2, we are doing OK. Both of us have a LOT of material this game to read.. and we have a good endgame team.

VOTE JASON

all lurkers must die.

I am against lynching out of the PR pool at this time.
I am OK with a Benmage or Delibird lynch.

[camn]

Its a good strategy.
How about Jason?

[camn]

. Suppose DV is a second Traitor to the Police.

This would help my bafflement as to why DV-scum would claim as he has.

[camn]

Well, THATS misguided... but at least we are staying in the vanilla pool.

[camn]

I wasnt trying to draw out the vig.. but to draw the nightkill. But not really that hard... because I wasn't softclaiming.
Sure, I didn't deny the idea that I was the vig. Because thoughts that I am the vig actually protect the real vig. But the whole softclaiming idea is a fantasy.

@kise- I don't even remember. BT seemed to handle pressure well. I didn't log the details.
Re: kuribo- it was his authenticity. I don't have time to pull quotes right now, though.

[camn]

And they aren't really that big or anything.... I don't think you would be that impressed.

[camn]

Hmm. Lets do this.

UNVOTE
VOTE: BENMAGE.

case to follow.. when I get a minute.
It turns out Ben is scum after all... and must die.

[camn]

OK-
Day 1 play:

@absta's 5 pages in 24 hours is pretty standard, if not actually a little slow for the start of a 19p game. I wouldn't have been surprised to see 10.
--It seems like a pre-excuse, when the game hasn't moved quickly. Hell there's been comments on how slow it's actually moving.

OK. Previously.. I had WIFOMed myself into thinking this was a Benmage townpost.
I thought, Jeez... that looks like he is really prying a screwdriver into absta. This is something that could actually get a case built up on later in the game.. and Ben-Scum would have known that.. and avoided it, so as not to get his partner killed.
but now I am contemplating Ben's subtlety.
I, of course, understand that bussing goes LONG AND DEEP.. and something like this- calling out your partner's crapplay as actual crapplay is just the kind of thing that I would do as scum, to get just the reaction from players like myself.
td:lr: I may have oversimplified the Mage's capacity for bussing.

Significance?
Well.. he needles at absta.. he prys a LITTLE BIT.

-Why out of everything you've missed did you pick this thing out to note?

Abstas your earlier post was around 150.... You pull a few posts around the 200-220’s.... What or where are you in your catchup?

Slight scum:
absta101

But then what? Absta didnt get any better.. but Ben backs off:

abstas irks me, but it might just be playstyle + inexperience.

post 518
^abstas is terrible at this.

And actually calls for the hammer to pre-empt what ended up to be a pretty furious town vs. scum:

I don't have the energy to read this camnvabstas....

----------------------[]

Conclusion? THis is Subtle, professional bussing on the part of Benmage. Poking, but no cutting. Talk, but no votes.

------------
General points:

The dragon will awaken as it always does. Period.

Ok. When?
Here?

I only read the kuribo one... I can;t do this now.. sory.

Here?

Yes, I've been procrastinating, I promise to get something more substantial tonight.

HERE?

Ughh I think playing rugby below 40 got me sick. Fighting something so I still havent done anything.

OK- maybe thats petty.. but the 'waking the dragon' line feels funny to me. Like he is nervous about catching heat, and trying to bluff his way out pre-emptively.
ACTUALLY OF COURSE!- like he himself says- its a PRE-EXCUSE.
THe pre-excuse scumtell as a freudian slip?

More to come... when I get another few minutes:)

[camn]

I'd like to know why it took so long for you camn to push this.

I, Like many, Have had a town read on him. But part of me really expected him to DECLARE himself with townie righteousness as the game progressed, which hasnt happened.
And now.. I am at a loss scum-wise.
I look back at Jason, and I still cant get over the authenticity of his so -called gambit. I hate his play. I want him to be scum... but I think he might be town.
Whereas BEN- I generally LOVE his play, though he has fallen off these last few weeks.... I WANT him to be town.. but I think he is scum.

[camn]

I could obviously get behind a CDB Lynch.

Shaft- today is the day I took a second look at BenMage. That's why today.

[camn]

Youamrite.

Can a sister get a real wagon around here?
THIS TOWN NEEDS AN ENEMA!

[camn]

I want Bemmage at L-1 by the time I get home tomorrow.

[camn]

hmm.
Interesting turn of events.

NO counterwagon? I cant tell if that bothers me or reassures me.

[camn]

UNVOTE
VOTE CHANELDELIBIRD

this vote is mostly just for spite.

Plus the fact that if he HAPPENS to be town, and is the tiebreaker with me and scum in endgame....his unreasonable fixation on me will lose the game for us. Closed mind = suboptimal.

[camn]

At this point, as long as it is Ben or Delibird, no.

But more importantly, I want to see some life out of the rest of the town. A nice furious counter wagon is just what we need.

[camn]

My thoughts on setup are this- I suck at setups.
BUT- I like giving scum a night after massclaim to decide who they want dead.
The simple fact is- they know who is town, and thus who has true-claims... and they have to decide who is the most dangerous to them, and kill them (hoping that there is no doc-save)

THEN- if there IS a doc-save, bingo, we get a soft-cleared townie.
If there is a kill, bingo- a smaller PR pool for speculation, and a decent chunk of MOSTLY wifom-free data re: NK specualtion.

I obviously agree with the Ben/CDB lynch pool. Lets get after it.

[camn]

I obviously agree with the Ben/CDB lynch pool. Lets get after it.

I really don't like this.. you seem very lynch happy, not caring who gets lynched.

as long as it is either of them, I don't.
and Lynch happy? Oh yes. Blood thirsty? Certainly. Bent on destruction? Of course!

[camn]

They couldn't have killed Shaft? Someone I'm actually paranoid about?

a. This is scummy. Of course the scum play right now is to kill obvtown. But whatev.
b. I havent looked too hard at out claims.. but dont we have some protective roles? I need target claims for all PRs asap.
c. sigh. This is the hardest part of games like this. We need to focus.

Target claims please. Some may have been addressed... but lets just fill in the blanks now.. Shaft especially.-

Kuribo

- Wendell "Orlando" Blocker, 3-Shot Neighborizer: N1, DeasVail/N2, Cerulean /N3, Pless/N4, noaction

SHAFT

- Maurice Levy, Expensive Doctor: N1___/N2___/N3___/N4___

Cerulean

- Roland "Wee-Bey" Brice, X-Shot Vigilante: N1, absta/N2, Arcangel9 ?/N3, BT/N4, ?
Benmage - Perry, Vanilla
JasonT1981 - Brianna Barksdale, Vanilla
camn - Donette, Vanilla

Deasvail

- Wallace, Daytalk enabler and 1-shot Bodyguard: N1___/N2___/N3___/N4___

[camn]

/rolls eyes.

Okay- Ima go back to lurking.
Lynch me if you want.

[camn]

In what world would I let a doctor live this long?

Or Cerulean?

See... this is what I am talking about.
Something is fishy.

I don't mind DeasVail withholding his target... or even just yelling us that he hasn't targeted anyone yet, regardless of if it is the truth....but I'd like to solidify what everyone has been up to at night.

[camn]

Also... not to be confrontational, but Cerulean- if you could, in a calm way, explain exactly why you are against doc target claims?
also.... if DV's ability logically still is in play, which I agree it is, what is the harm in knowing who he targeted?

To me these speak to the though process of both Shaft and DV. I think we agree that MORE clarity on those spots is better than less.
so why the opposition? Did Shaft save your target last night?

[camn]

You do understand that outting that information only tells scum who's available to get NK'd, right?

Actually doesnt make sense at all.
Like... as if previous nights actions have some sway over current night actions?
But then again- I dont really understand (or care) about the modifiers.. expensive, x-shot... whatever. So maybe it matters.

But to answer--- I want to know about those slots. They are soft, and I want data. I care who is targeting who and why. Plus- there was only one kill last night. . . . . Relevant? who knows.

But whatever. Its not really that much of a big deal. I like to maximize my info load at this point in the game- thats the whole point of massclaiming, yes? If you were worried about shaping nightkills, we shouldnt have massclaimed at all.
Anyway, at this point, with all the jabber, anyone who might have FAKED their PR claim has had plenty of time to make sure all their targets make sense.. so meh.

[camn]

Oh yes.

[camn]

Hey Deas!
Tell me this- is it true you have been bodyguarding someone every night, but never had to die for it, and thus can keep bodyguarding?
Or do you only have 1-shot, in which case you can only TARGET one time.... and you may or may not have used your targeting ability already?

[camn]

I still don't know.
Because I don't have much of a head for setup speculation?

What does it mean to be "expensive"?

[camn]

(Tbh, I figured it was just a flavor modifier... like, the ability only works on characters with money or something else I didn't think too long about)

[camn]

Ha. I looked it up.
I can see, and agree with, the rationale for withholding doc targets- given he can only target a player once!

@cerulean- if you really think I am skimming AS SCUM, to the point where I overlook a detail of a powerrole claim.... then I think your logic has failed you.
Insult me all you want, but please try and look for actual scum motivation. If you are town.

[camn]

ok. go ahead and lynch then.

FOR THE RECORD:

How >I< think this should have gone:

camn: hey kise- what were your targets?
kise: Im not telling. That would be suboptimal, since I can only target everyone once.
camn: OH! Very well then.

How it really went:

camn: hey kise- what were your targets?
Cerulean: OMG someone is retarded! >add snarky insults here<
kuribo: fuck slut asshole cunt
camn: Oh.

Given that the second scenario has overwhelmingly been the tone of the game, I guess I shouldnt have been surprised.

Now, back to reality- Cerulean- Sure, scum skim because they know who the scum are. BUT THEY PAY ATTENTION TO POWER CLAIMS. Do you not agree? Are you saying that scum generally dont analyze the most powerful roles against them?

Meanwhile, I certainly have blown off chunks of this game because I am busy and they are boring... but mostly I am following. I just generally blow off the DETAILS of PR claims until endgame, because I have found they dont help me catch scum.
How people behave? Who they target? That helps me.

[camn]

camn did you say you wanted to fool mafia into thinking you were the vig so they'd kill you?

Wanted is a big word.
While kuribo was throwing around accusations, I certainly encouraged it a little bit to that very end- to draw attention away from the real vig. (who I thought was Benmage, incidentally)

[camn]

But now camn since you're halfway to joining the world of the living, the real question is. Is kise really the town doc he claims to be?

As far as your DVD question, he's still not answering that but join me on a ride. A Bg dies if his target is selected, yes? So clearly that means a 1 shot getsonly one shot to target. Are you with me now?

As far as the other PR claim faking their targets, namely us. You do realize our kill flavor is murdered right? Good. So, our targets are absolutely unfakable.

Now that that silliness is done, can we move on to you know scumhunting.

I believe kise right now, and I am no longer interested in his targets.

I DO understand about the bodyguard.
But, I am not sure I believe DV's claim.
It seems to me optimal town-claim is to WITHHOLD the one-shot status.
BUT, I certainly think that a TOWNIE might fake-claim a limited shot so as to lessen the chance of nightkill.
AND I think if DV's claim is true- then the ONLY town response to my question is: "I have not targeted anyone." Whereas scum might be inclined to make something up.

IN re: YOUR claims-- I was kind of interested in what happened LAST night.. but mostly in the context of a doc-save. At this point I dont care.

Inre: Ben- he was giving me vibes early on.. like he was protecting me during the time that kuribo was calling me a SK- just what I would do as a Vig. plus this:

Hmm. Nice shot camn,....

Classic Vig-post.

[camn]

Hmmm- I am re-reading to try and get a grip... I see now the posts where the meaning of expensive is brought up. I actually vaugely remember reading them at the time, and not caring I think I was pretty suspicious that Kise was scum at that time, and was blowing off his claim.
My bad!

Re my attitude?
I am tired of the insults and cursing.
If you think I am scum, lynch me.

If you want to waste time grinding on me because I am a ditz.. go ahead, but at least acknowledge I am town, so we can move on.

[camn]

t. I want to believe your town and if I could just feel better about that I could direct my attention to the other three in my suspect pool.

Ok - well let me put this to you.

If I were scum- then asking Kise for his targets was scummy

if I knew he was expensive

If I

didn't

know.. there actually isn't much scum motivation to it, right?

So ask yourself this: Can you have it both ways?

Either I knew, and Im scum, and Im lying about not knowing, and it was all a fabrication- (and a poor one at that since it was clearly discussed in thread)... and

you should be dead

. Because I knew you could no longer be protected.

Or I

DIDN'T

know, AND I'm scum (with an equally clueless partner) and I didn't kill you because I thought you would be protected (not noticing that it was mentioned in thread that you are done with protection), in which case asking Kise for his targets was NOT particularly scum motivated.

I think it is more feasible that I actually didn't know- and I'm town. Because my dumb partners surely couldn't have all been as blonde as me, right?

@ Ben- you are on my list still. You dont see my vote anywhere ELSE, do you? However, I agree with your reasoning on DV.
@ Kuribo- I DO appreciate your new attitude. and I AM a lollygagger.. and I have been sick of the insults since, like, 2010. But I post when I can. Otherwise I just read on my phone while im in the bathroom But trust me- I HAVE A PLAN.

[camn]

If I knew- then I would have known you could be targeted freely, no?
Not saying that I would have killed you over Pless... but I would have

Of course.. I wonder why ANY scum would kill pless-vanilla over any of the PRs..... but me in particular? I would have been surprised to catch any votes from Pless.

[camn]

Who doesn't kill the doc?

This is the real crux, I think, and really the one of main reasons I started wanting full info-reveals.
The pless kill doesn't make much sense in light of all these PRs.. . but there it is.

I think it is because they think they can get him lynched, no?
Which brings me back to benmage. He was all up on Kise until 2183.. then he drops it entirely. Is that Ben-scum planning on a Kise myslynch later on? It is hard for me to make that work. It would be a big turnaround for him.
Shit.

On a different note: me and Jason?
How many times have I asked you to vig Jason?
I would quicklynch him right now.
and I know, I KNOW that I would certainly buss that hard... but really?

On that note- I actually propose we lynch Jason.
I know I have had a townread on him based on Day 1.. but look:

Cerulean

-

town

play. Town Vig. Un-cc'd

Benmage

- maybe scum.. but as above- why is Shaft alive?

JasonT1981

- town read on EARLY play.. total shit since then. Maybe sleeper

scum

!

camn

- obv.

Deasvail

- Also

maybescum

. The claim consistent with POLICE. Daytalk enabler.. radio operator or something... lets the Cops talk with each other while also keeping a line into the back of the NEIGHBORHOOD.
Why a 1-shot bodyguard? Because he would take a bullet for a fellow cop (someone with a better PR?).. at the expense of losing communications.

kuribo

-

town

on play AND claim

Shaft

-

town

on claim, if not on play.

Hm.
Kind of stream of consciousness.. but I am thinking Scum in DV and Jason now.
And I am more willing to let DV ride than Jason, of the two.
The scum need to narrow down the PR pool sooner or later, so I am inclined to stick with vanilla claims.

VOTE: JASON.

[camn]

Sorry, kuribo- I was on a plane.
I'm not talking about a role... but about Flavor justification for the role of 'daytalk enabler'.
What kind of person makes it so that Police can communicate? A radio Guy. Maybe a cellphone salesman? A communications expert.
Like maybe the skinny white Guy, Prezblewski....sitting in the dark, listening to the phones.

On the other hand... what kind of BARKSDALE GANGSTER makes it so that police can communicate privately all the time? WALLACE? THE RAT? How does that even make sense?

[camn]

In fact.... it really, really doesn't make sense.

DV! Explain your flavor, will you? How does Wallace keep the police's lines of communication open?

[camn]

You can't hate a girl for glazing over a little when a game hits 100 pages.....

Regarding DV- I can see him wanting to float the daytalk thing for the neighborhood for keep-me-alive cred....and maybe the daytalk for cops as an excuse later for avoiding the nightkill?

[camn]

So are you also saying that I'm making it up?

The Wallace part, yes.
alternately, our mod simply put NO thought into the flavor for your role. He just haphazardly paired up an interesting role with a random character assignmant, and didn't really link the personality of the character with the role AT ALL.

Decent hypothesis?

[camn]

Jason needs to die.
If its LYLO now, and Jason is actually town...then we are hosed and this is WHY he should have been vigged.

If its not Lylo, and we let home live, he will be screwing us in lylo just like he is now.

[camn]

Jason needs to die.
If its LYLO now, and Jason is actually town...then we are hosed and this is WHY he should have been vigged.

If its not Lylo, and we let home live, he will be screwing us in lylo just like he is now.

This is what gets me about Camn, and is starting to make me think he could be scum.

He would seemingly rather lynch someone so they are not there at the end, than actually lynch scum.

Except you are just as likely to be scum... maybe even more likely.
So really this commentary is about contingency planning. If we are wrong, we at least have eliminated an obstacle to winning.

Show me obvscum, and of course I support their lynch

[camn]

Wall vs. Nonwall is not relavant.
Jason lurks as scum.
Hypo jasontown is mislynch fodder now OR in lylo.... and now is more optimal.
Our vig let a sista down when they let Jason live.

Ergo- Jason must die.
QED

[camn]

Why couldn't today possibly be lylo?

It could.. in which case the problem with leaving Jason alive has come to pass.
He is too lurker to get a townread on.. too lurkerscummy to NOT lynch.

[camn]

Jason could easily be that second traitor.

[camn]

A meta defense is no defense at all.

Jason- What happened? You started out this game with good activity... then you lost a teammate and a traitor.... did your heart quail? What changed?
Be honest. Was it the size? The walls? the pretty summer days?
Or the loneliness in the QT?

[camn]

Relevance?

And cerulean- please see post 3030 for an organized and recent list of my suspicions.
Not much has changed.

[camn]

I think empires reasoning is off.
Imagine you got a blue-colored role saying thou had partners, a QT, and you were a day talk enabler.
That would be just as confusing as getting a red-colored role saying you had nothing but your vote.
So DV's 'genuine' confusion is nothing.
As to why he would true claim? Because he started out crumbing it, didn't think it through, and was committed to the action.

Plus, I am not of the mind too let anything in the neighborhood influence me. I can't see it.

Plus plus, I think DV/Jason makes more sense in re last night than Ben/anyone. Ben has been flaky lately, and could be scum, but he is generally more rational, and would be eliminating powder roles by now.

[camn]

What do you mean, relevance?

I mean- how is this relevant?

If you want to talk about my opinions on Jason-- you should know, my opinions are rarely binary.
Did I think Jason was town? Sure... but not enough to want him to live.
Did I think he could be scum? SURE. But not enough to want his lynch.
Ergo? Vig.
To bad that didnt happen, or we wouldn't be having this conversation.

However, things are different now.
The people I thought were scum have flipped town, and my suspect pool has shrunk.
Jason's early towntells seem less important now.

Are you arguing that because I gave Jason a pass earlier, although I asked for him to be vigged and swore I would see him dead before endgame... that I am somehow being inconsistent.. or that this proves Jason is a rock-solid townie that will come through for us in LYLO?

If so.. whatev. Consistency doesn't win games. Lynching scum wins games.

[camn]

ITT kuribo and I agree completely regarding Jason.

[camn]

He's like, "screw it.. this game is lost anyway. If only I had recruited that traitor instead of him getting lynched. And christ, what a partner- Absta? Everyone knows that trying to mislynch camn is one of the classic blunders. Only slightly less famous than going against a Sicilian when death is on the line!"

[camn]

I don't like that Camn is ignoring the read that empire gave on DV or just blowing it to the side and not commenting on my criticism.

Oops, I missed that post. I dont have much to add.. but I will try and rephrase.

Playing anti-scum is confusing no matter what color you get. I was confused when I saw red- and thought I was scum. To the point that the mod had to actually correct me.
If I had gotten blue, and

partners

I could have been equally confused.
So saying "He was confused, he's obvtown"- to me THAT is "weak sauce". But you disagree, so fine.

AS far as claiming- TRUE CLAIMS ARE THE BEST. Why? because they are true. Thats why people claim them. The best scum claim is a true claim, and so I dont think it is out of line for DV to have decided on the true-claim path early on.. and then been committed.
Again- to me, using that as a TOWNtell is pretty full of wifom, and not reliable. But whatever. The fact that it is kind of

just me

thinking the claim is MUST-SCUM shows that it wasn't actually a BAD decision on his part.
Do you get that? DV is still alive.
Thus, his claim is NOT something that is obv obv ovb scum to everyone- or he would be dead.
So logically, you cant sit there and say, "its TOO ObvScum! No way would scum do it! Thus he's town!" Because if it WAS so obv- he would be dead.
That is WIFOM logic by definition.

in re: ben- please see post 3030. Shaft being alive doesn't make sense to me with ben-scum. At least to the point that it elevates DV and Jason above him in likelihood.

[camn]

I just read through Jason. I think he might be town.

I would totally be for a DV wagon, though obv you are against it.
As noted, I think Ben is less likely scum than Jason, but I would go for him at deadline.
I am against you, Shaft or kuribo. and obviously I am against my own lynch

I agree the Jason wagon sucks, energy wise.. but it would be a pretty easy wagon for scum to push though if it were a mislynch, no?

PS-
I think you are just WIFOM-ing yourself out of DV.
Whenever the argument is - Action X is too scummy to be scum - it is flawed, unless the player has a proven track record of perfect, optimal scumplay at all times.
In which case they should be lynched D1 every time

[camn]

Thank you once again for super oversimplifying something and not reading everything.

Your face is simple.

[camn]

Oh, and re: the "play" argument.. not to simplify- but it is all meta-speculation.
Which is fine. But just an opinion, and one in light of DV actually discussing his own meta.
Which is why meta defenses are no defenses at all.

[camn]

Ok. You have meta on him.
That doesn't, shouldn't and CAN'T affect my read in any way, and we dont even need to argue about it!
Anyone would be a fool to say- Oh! You have Meta! Yay!

Me, I try to look at motivation IN game. That being, scum motivation and town motivation. Meta might work sometimes, but I have never had consistent results with it. However.. scum motivation? That always holds.
IN RE: DV:
He planned his claim.

Spoiler:

Plessiez, why would I need to make this role up as scum? I think my hints at knowing scum have daytalk indicate that I planned to claim it all along, which is just weird on Day 1 or 2 or whatever it was.

Why? Because it gives him a great reason to avoid the nightkill.
This could be either town or scum motivated. As scum, as a great EXCUSE .. or as town as a strategic reason
Of course, he hints that his role hinted to him that there was a town daytalk.. or from his perspective, more than one faction of daytalk. Which means he knew it would discourage THEM from killing him too.

Spoiler:

And yes, with me being alive, anyone that can talk in a QT can do so at all times.

All this, to ME, shows survivalist motivation in re: the CLAIM. Not PURE scum.. but >NOT< total town.
Coupled with the total LACK of any flavor justification at all tells me this: TRUE roleclaim, FALSE characterclaim = likely scum.
Me, If I were TOWN.. I probably would have claimed daytalkenabler in the neighborhood QT, and NOT claimed in the open. Furthermore, I would have softclaimed hard power early, trying to draw the nightkill and end the scum ability to actually daytalk. But DV laid it out in such a way that he could claim power and have an ongoing excuse for not dying.
(Of course, since scum aren't even picking off PRs yet.. the strategy isn't paying off, IMO.)

HOWEVER.. I think Jason is more likely scum than DV. And I could probably come around to Ben again. He is only third on my list because of the Pless kill.

[camn]

The fact that you acknowledge that the strategy isn't paying off is what confuses me the most, since according to you it's my own actions that are making it so.

Thats the incredible self-awareness of it.

A hypo-DV-scum thinks this at the start of the game:
"If I claim this role I have.. then the town will give me a pass since I am a PR.. AND I can use my usefullness to the scum as an excuse for not being killed.. because, in my opinion, that is a valid question for a PR who lives through the night.
BUT.. in my WIFOM glory... if I >as scum< actually go after vanillas.. I can pose the exact question I am worried about to the OTHER claimed PRs!

BOO YAH!"

Of course, Pless thirsting for his partner's blood didn't help them.

[camn]

###
VOTE: BENMAGE
###

Looking at TGAH's posts, his push on Jason makes me think he either wasn't afraid to buss, or didnt know the whole group.
Regardless, we have protection of Benmage here:

You're attacking him because "OMG Benmage hasn't corralled the scum already." It's a logical fallacy and using it as the basis to say someone is scum is quite scummy.

We have

fake cognitive hydra dissonance

(go ahead and hate, it had to be fake since TGAH was scum) here:

I am however waiting for him

[his hydra partner]

to respond to something regarding Benmage/Jason as my reads on those slots are the opposite of him right now.

AND a RVS vote for distancing here:

vote: benmage

for great justice!

--------------------

Then there is Jasons late-game push, here:

Ben has been a long term scum read of mine, with 2 days to go I need to vote... since I am the only other wagon and I won't vote myself. vote: Benmage

Obv scum distancing.
(PS, Id like to point out that Jason fully could have been caught on the

REAL LIFE EXCUSES TELL

, as well as the inverted

THAT SUCKS

tell)

-------------------

Now Ben himself, I wouldn't expect many classic tells from him as scum.. but here we see some early distancing- hate with no vote:

unvote vote Plessie

@absta's 5 pages in 24 hours is pretty standard, if not actually a little slow for the start of a 19p game. I wouldn't have been surprised to see 10.
--It seems like a pre-excuse, when the game hasn't moved quickly. Hell there's been comments on how slow it's actually moving.

Slight scum:
absta101
Safetydance
JasonT1981
TheGreatestAmericanHero (Konowa/roflcopter hydra)

Scum:
petapan

Actually this vote lasted a whole 7 minutes:

unvote vote Jason

Pet wagon is still good.

And his subtle protection of the asskicking I am sure he sensed his parter would get trying to 1v1 against me:

I don't have the energy to read this camnvabstas....

----------------------[]

This day has hit the drag mark. rofl's posting on site... I guess waiting on other head for a proper fakeclaim.

All in all ? Scum.

Setup summary next, to show why this lynch is optimal.

[camn]

Ok: remaining players, and claims:
(ps- I knew that the scum would kill cerulean last night, so I prepped all this. Nothing gives me energy like lynching scum-Jason, and knowing I will live through the night )

Benmage

- GOON

camn

- GOON

Deasvail

– Daytalk/Bodyguard

kuribo

- Neiborizer

Shaft

- DOC

Here's the deal- Im town, and I think there is ONE and only one scum left. Please convince me if this isnt the case.
I am pretty sure Kuribo is town, because scum with his role makes very very little sense.
DV, I think he could CERTAINLY be scum. but I have a plan.
And shaft- same deal

So this is how it plays in my head.
We lynch Ben.

if the game isn't over (which I think it will be, but meh)...than one of the protective roles is scum, imo.

SO

, we agree in thread that Shaft protects either me or kuribo, whichever he can still.. and DV the other.

Then

, whoever is scum HAS to kill one of the protective roles. There is math to this, but it would take too long to explain right now- I'll do it later. Please try and work it for yourself so we can discuss.
That leaves us with Kuribo/camn/[dvORshaft] in endgame, right? This is an endgame I am comfortable with, in the off chance I am wrong about Ben, which is unlikely. Since, imo, and I hope in kuribo's, the two protective roles are the most uncertain slots... forcing one of them to die is awesome, and lylo is easy.
Town win. Unless kuribo is scum.

[camn]

oops- sorry kuribo, i missed your post.

I think that route is suboptimal... but I am of course willing to think it through.
And I am CERTAINLY not about to be steamrolled by your "with us or against us" garbage.
Now is the time for measured discussion. Lets see the reasoning. I am not fully against a Kise lynch, I just think is makes our night play stickier if we are wrong.

If we are stuck with
Benmage - GOON
camn - GOON
Deasvail – Daytalk/Bodyguard
kuribo - Neiborizer

at night... you probly are the kill, and its
Benmage - GOON
camn - GOON
Deasvail – Daytalk/Bodyguard

in LYLO. I dont like that much. I want to force YOU and ME into LYLO if we are wrong.

But lets see the case on Shaft. I do hate a claimed doc that lives to endgame..
I also want a full target-claim from him before we lynch him (if we do).

[camn]

ok.
Im going to read this again tomorrow when I am sober, and try not to get involved in kuribos retarded ego-battles. Because I like to win. Not be an asshole like some people.

DV- Benmage- Kise- I will give your opinions slightly less weight than kuribos, because he is my biggest townread....... but I want to hear from you too.

and kuribo- I DO run things. I still have a plan, you little punk. Try not to lose sight of the goal, which is to win, boy.

UNVOTE

[camn]

Hmm. Are you scum, then, Kise?
I was going to await your rebuttal... But you can save us all the trouble.