Mafia of the Raptured (Game Over!)

[Zachrulez]

Zdenek is town. I wouldn't worry overly much about the role that must be protected claiming, being run up to a claim or being narrowed down via vanilla claims, all that can be avoided by not carelessly running someone up that we don't actually have an intention of lynching.

For the sake of the universe and contiguity, I need everyone to claim the game/universe their character is from.

Nothing important, just a lil dash of flavor.

It's no big deal guys.

What could possibly go wrong.

Vote: Pjovek

[Zachrulez]

Hey Zach--want to obvTown so I can stop worrying about players 10-15? That'd look really cool on my notes.

Want to help me lynch Pjovek? It would fill me with warm feelings inside.

[Zachrulez]

I uhhh have no idea how that quote fail happened...

Hey Zach--want to obvTown so I can stop worrying about players 10-15? That'd look really cool on my notes.

Want to help me lynch Pjovek? It would fill me with warm feelings inside.[/quote]

[Zachrulez]

Close enough.

[Zachrulez]

Hey Zach--want to obvTown so I can stop worrying about players 10-15? That'd look really cool on my notes.

Want to help me lynch Pjovek? It would fill me with warm feelings inside.

Why do you think he would troll like that as scum and not as Town? He's not an insecure newbie, regardless of his post count in MS.

My friend Jason a while back ran a theme game. It featured the scum pushing a mass claim on day 1 and getting away with it. Seeing that kind of action again in another theme game, and nothing from Pjovek's iso to indicate to me that he's town, I'm more than fine to say DIESCUMDIE as of this 5 minutes.

@Kat & Zach: Mind stating your opinion on whimsical?

I'm barely paying attention to anything else in this game beyond my initial observations right now.

[Zachrulez]

implosion and Pjovek are bringing home the bacon.

VOTE: Zachrulez

You're making my notes very, very sad, Zach.

Pushing for a massclaim D1 is a specific situation that has nothing to do with Pjovek's behavior so far. Why are you trying to pin someone else's meta and somegame else's situation on him?


(Pregame QTs exist and Vi games have a tendency to have Daytalk for scum anyway.)


PEdit: Not really for that, it's easy to fake.

Without a given reason for doing so, I'm not going to let the action pass.

[Zachrulez]

Pjovek--walk me through the thought process of writing Post 16.

Not yet, no.
Suffice to say I was feeling a bit lazy.

Also I'd like to note that I never asked for a massclaim. Just a claim of really minor flavor. Not even rolenames or anything. Really minor. I honestly didn't (and don't) see the harm in it.

My main concern is the inherent risk involved in making a post like that. You appear to be an intelligent player (trolling notwithstanding), and there is an immediate risk that someone

will

think it's not a big deal indeed and start claiming info about their character. I expect you to be aware of this risk--so why take it?

Putting things simply: the scum might know which character is the Apocalypse one. Revealing universes/continuity might help them. Why do you think this is a risk worth taking, either in a trolling form ("let's see who jumps on this!") or genuinely thinking a partial flavor claim is something we should do?


PEdit: I don't see how scum having a fabricated Townread on anyone makes the second person Town.

Hey Tierce the above consequences you listed are exactly why I'm voting him.

[Zachrulez]

Pedit: Zdenek. Why would scum want to push something obviously scum? That would be the height of dumbfuckery; "HAY GAIZ THERE'S A ROLE OUT THERE THAT DOES GOOD THINGS FOR SCUM LET'S ALL OUT OUR FLAVOR INFO SO IT WOULD BE EASIER FOR THE SCUM TO FIND IT" So I ask you; why would scum not think releasing flavor information is a bad idea?

I see any comment in the scum-qt about this going something like: "town will be on the look-out for people trying to fish for people's flavour, so we should be careful not to do things that could appear to be flavour fishing," and not like "I think its a bad idea for us to flavour claim." The difference in the conversations makes me think that it's a mistake that scum is unlikely to make, and that it's more likely that Whimsy just invented the reason for his MattP town-rea with the scum-motivation being to buddy MattP directly, and indirect buddy Oversoul by agreeing with him on a read.

It's not impossible for MattP and Whimsy to be buddies, but my feeling is that at that moment, at the start of the game and under no pressure, that scum is not likely to give a false reason for read a buddy - it's something they are usually more careful about.

It featured the scum pushing a mass claim on day 1 and getting away with it. Seeing that kind of action again in another theme game, and nothing from Pjovek's iso to indicate to me that he's town, I'm more than fine to say DIESCUMDIE as of this 5 minutes.

Well, he's pushing for us to claim a small part of our flavour, which is potentially anti-town, but it's definitely not him pushing for mass-claim, so you're blowing this out of proportion.

Even a partial claim on mass can be beneficial to scum. Even if it's not a mass claim of everything, it's still a type of massclaim he asked for.

[Zachrulez]

Pjovek--walk me through the thought process of writing Post 16.

Not yet, no.
Suffice to say I was feeling a bit lazy.

Also I'd like to note that I never asked for a massclaim. Just a claim of really minor flavor. Not even rolenames or anything. Really minor. I honestly didn't (and don't) see the harm in it.

My main concern is the inherent risk involved in making a post like that. You appear to be an intelligent player (trolling notwithstanding), and there is an immediate risk that someone

will

think it's not a big deal indeed and start claiming info about their character. I expect you to be aware of this risk--so why take it?

Putting things simply: the scum might know which character is the Apocalypse one. Revealing universes/continuity might help them. Why do you think this is a risk worth taking, either in a trolling form ("let's see who jumps on this!") or genuinely thinking a partial flavor claim is something we should do?


PEdit: I don't see how scum having a fabricated Townread on anyone makes the second person Town.

Hey Tierce the above consequences you listed are exactly why I'm voting him.

Hey Zach you did not mention this at all. You jumped on him immediately and, when asked, didn't explain your thought process, instead bringing up a completely unrelated situation with no relation to this game and playerlist. Forgive me if I'm not inclined to believe that Zach-Town would not push and prod instead of laying down a vote without any investigative push on your scumread.

Pjovek's request may not (does not) benefit Town, yet you still happily dumped a truckload of someone-else's-meta and somegame-else's-situation on him with no actual thinking from

you

about

this game

and

this player

expressed in it. Dull, boring, lazy, and you're better than that.


PEdit: Probably because it was boring/incomprehensible. Be more entertaining and engaged and I might to do more than skim your posts.

I figured that my thought process would be obvious even if one didn't agree with my POV. Since you listed the potential consequences that shockingly DID enter my thought process, I found it prudent to reveal that yes, that is actually a part of my reasoning for the vote.

I brought up the other game to demonstrate that the action does have potential scum motivation and generally no town motivation if a damn good reason for proposing it isn't brought up with it... none of this vague "I have a good reason" bullshit. (My reference to the other game is to put context on the action being scummy, not a personal meta reference.)

I do notice the context you are trying to put my reference of meta into seems to be attempting to make my reference to it look really bad? Are you town? I'm curious.

[Zachrulez]

I'm going to assume syryana is town for a while, because i want him to be.

On an unrelated note because I'm curious, why do you want me to be town?

I'm going to assume syryana is town for a while, because i want him to be.

On an unrelated note because I'm curious, why do you want me to be town?

it makes things a little simpler i guess? idk really. Also you should stop spamming :\. Quintupleposts shouldn't be a thing.

Zach: could you link to the game you mentioned?

Argh I had to actually go look it up because Jason has modded like 513 games.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=24130

[Zachrulez]

Argh I had to actually go look it up because Jason has modded like 513 games.

The game is very recent, why did you say this?

He runs so many games, one right after the other and even multiple games at the same time I have trouble keeping them all straight. I wasn't referencing the game on anything other than memory, being asked for the link was somewhat annoying because I was then being asked to actually look the game up. (Bah at having to do work.)

[Zachrulez]

but when I see someone with a scummy for Best Town Performance doing lazy/bad things like this it calls for some voteage. And I'm shamelessly sheeping Tierce.

Oh dear god...

Have you actually read the game that won that award? You probably should.

[Zachrulez]

Let's delve into the giant paragraph now.

Then why switch wagon? Give me a legit reason why you think Zach wagon is better.

My reason for being on the Whimsywagon was primarily due to the scumslip.

By extension you're saying my actions are more unforgivable than a scum slip. I uhhh... don't even know what to say to that. (Or to the fact that if he is your top suspect you can actually make him the top wagon right nao. What's stopping you.)

It's fairly obvious at this point that wagon is going precisely nowhere (particularly given Whimsy hasn't been seen since that slip post)

This is bullshit. See above. You can literally make him the #1 wagon with your one vote. The fact that he hasn't posted actually merits more pressure on him IMO.

and I like the Zach wagon for a couple of reasons. The problem with Zach is not what he's saying against Pjovek's flavor claim; I 100% agree that flavor claim is a terrible idea. However, look how Zach pushes the idea;

It seems agreeing that it's a bad idea should be where it ends. It's almost like you guys are trying to force an extra level of play here where you're trying to work an already made conclusion of Zach scum into taking advantage of the situation. This presumes Pjovek town and frankly I'm just floored that this kind of leap and presumption is being made.

he links a game where scum got away with pushing mass claim on Day 1

Yeah, the reason I did that was to demonstrate that the action has a scum motivation and that the reaction to the action leads to an anti-town gamestate if you don't answer the action directly with a rebuke like I did.

without giving reasons and claims that's sufficient reason to lynch Pjovek (as Pjo has not given reasons either).

I voted with reason. Part of the game at that point is to get people to react to my vote and infer what my reasons are, something that... you know would help me come to positions on reacting players. (I don't think my reasoning for that vote at that point in the game is that hard to infer if you put some thought into it.)

He makes no attempt to ask Pjo what his reasons are and the game he linked has little to do with the situation at hand; the mechanics are entirely different, pushing flavor claim is different from pushing massclaim, etc. I believe Tierce has already gone over this.

They're different kinds of claims, but they generally contribute to anti-town gamestates. The fact that they are different kind of claims doesn't change my stance on the issue. He pushed for a form of massclaim. Are we really going to argue semantics about full massclaim vs partial massclaim? Hell trying to push a more subtle massclaim that people see as seemingly harmless is something I would find more scummy because the damaging effects of such a partial massclaim are not likely to be immediately apparent to a town.

In the meantime, Zach

still

has not tried to scumhunt, figure out Pjo's reasoning for pushing flavor claim, has not looked for any suspects other than Pjo. He's being very lazy and his method for pushing his scumread on Pjo frankly sucks.

Bullshit. Two simultaneous arguments are being made here. One that Zach is not scumhunting, and two that Zach's scumhunting sucks in your opinion. The two of these do not resolve together. If you're going to challenge my reasoning and call my lazy... fine. (But also you should probably make sure that I've never exhibited these traits as town in other games as well, just a tip.) Just don't say I'm not scumhunting, because the statement is entirely untrue.

Now, I've never played with Zach before (he was my mod in Micro 134, <3), but when I see someone with a scummy for Best Town Performance doing lazy/bad things like this it calls for some voteage. And I'm shamelessly sheeping Tierce.

I already touched on this, but part of the reason you're voting me is because I have a scummy and you expect more from me as a result?

Are you even sure Tierce is town? (I'm inferring that on your willingness to sheep her.) I'm not exactly having great feelings about her early play. Her jump on me feels just a bit opportunistic and more over semantics than anything else.

[Zachrulez]

To be fair, my vote on Pjovek is starting to look silly now given how early it was in the game and how much as happened then, coupled with the fact that I've lost some interest in it.

Vote: Whimsey Eggplant

I've heard a scumslip referred to, but I don't see it. My issue is that he hit Tammy for discussing game mechanics/merley commenting, when his own post basically amounted to the same thing. Tammy's done far more than he claims she has at this point, and we've seen no followup from the Whimsey one so far, which irks me because you think that would be the kind of line of thought someone genuinely scumhunting actually would follow up on. His lack of follow up doesn't come from not being available to respond either. He posted on site twice on Sunday.

[Zachrulez]

Errr...

Vote: Whimsical Eggplant

In case the incorrectly named one doesn't count.

My lack of attention to the game over the weekend was due to having lots of shiny distractions. My lack of attention in that timeframe isn't meant to say that I was never going to give the content in the game attention, just that I wasn't in much of a position to over the last couple of days.

[Zachrulez]

Did it occured to you: (zach, fferyllt and pjovek) that he did not read this thread considering his post is only 2 at other forums and they are only 2 mins apart. Which means there is a high chance that he viewed other forums on mobile and did not read this thread( my interpretation) Thoughts?

It's possible. I don't think it weakens my point, though it's not the entire crux of my vote anyway.

Also I went back to your post where you originally voted for Whimsical and I see the point you're making now. He's agreeing with Matt about something Matt never mentioned in game as far as I can see.

[Zachrulez]

@zach:It weakens your case a lot actually we have seen no follow up because he has not read this thread at all(my interpretation). But bah.

Well I mean it's possible he hasn't, but I don't find it the most likely reason.

[Zachrulez]

All it took was for Tierce to ask nicerly ffery?

What don't you like about the wagon Tierce?

[Zachrulez]

Reasoning and speed and this game's mechanics. I don't think he's scum, so.

And considering I'm voting the lady up there and she is more interested on my request for an unvote than on my reasons for voting her, color me intrigued. A word that here means "Hey guys, she really

is

scum!"

I will confess I don't much care for her vote on the wagon or her reactions to inquiries on the wagon, which led to an unvote which came way too easily.

But that's why god invented bussing. There's nothing to say they can't

both

be scum.

[Zachrulez]

I guess Pjovek can't even wait until Sword fails to post following his V/LA to call him lurker scum.

By fails, I mean like, we get to tommorow/Wednesday and he still hasn't posted.

[Zachrulez]

I was under the impression that it was for 'out of context' arguments. Either way Zach doesn't give me a good vibe, vastly different from our time together in team mafia.

Oh well.

Time together in team mafia?
You weren't on his team and you didn't play in his specific game.

What? Where do you think my BEST TOWN PERFORMANCE scummy came from? (noob zach had to get himself shot to prevent our wonderful townsweep)

I am going to assume you are talking about 2011/2010 scummies then?

Pretty sure it was 2012, since I still had it hanging about a few months ago. Date doesn't particularly matter and I'm not sure why you're caught up about this?

That game was in 2011, and I posted 6 times barely saying anything.

[Zachrulez]

The only thing that slows the battery drain based on what the ruleset says is true activity, thus spam is not going to slow down the battery drain.

It's a net negative because everyone has to go through that spam that doesn't slow down the battery drain at all, so it just makes it harder to read through the game on top of giving people less time to do it.

[Zachrulez]

I do think the content of Whimsey's one post is worth lynching for.

But I'd be happy to see ffrey or pjovek lynched as well. Them be my scumreads.

[Zachrulez]

Tierce is in the I'm not sure category and it makes me sad, but I won't let that get in the way of my agreement with her that ffrey is scummy.

[Zachrulez]

And what magnificent info would we get out of D1 from that Whimsical Eggplant lynch, Zach, other than vague wagon analysis?

You'll come to find that the allure of what kind of "information" a lynch yields isn't highly valued by me. My priority is to find scummy players and lynch them for it, get scum flip, rinse, repeat, ect.

Yeah,

nada

. Because the slot hasn't had the chance to interact with anyone. The game started not 72 hours ago. Settle down.

I haven't said I'm unwilling to hear a replacement out.

Or at least to pretend I'm willing...

...you only have to meta a couple of games to see that I'm ridiculously obvTown, Zach. Go do that. I'll even tell you that my best scum game ever was my latest one--short as it was--and that it's CES's Doctor Who micro. I'm bleeding Town all over the thread.

I'm trying to remember if you actually asked me to do this in Khan mafia.

[Zachrulez]

I do think the content of Whimsey's one post is worth lynching for.

But I'd be happy to see ffrey or pjovek lynched as well. Them be my scumreads.

If you lynch me and I flip town, what will that do to your pjovek read?

The basis of my read isn't based entirely on a link. If you flipped town I would still find pjovek scummy.

[Zachrulez]

So do you think my read of pjovek is wrong? I'm not really sure what you think about anyone else in the game other than whimsey and that's why I don't have a good feeling about you.

[Zachrulez]

And what magnificent info would we get out of D1 from that Whimsical Eggplant lynch, Zach, other than vague wagon analysis?

You'll come to find that the allure of what kind of "information" a lynch yields isn't highly valued by me. My priority is to find scummy players and lynch them for it, get scum flip, rinse, repeat, ect.

...you only have to meta a couple of games to see that I'm ridiculously obvTown, Zach. Go do that. I'll even tell you that my best scum game ever was my latest one--short as it was--and that it's CES's Doctor Who micro. I'm bleeding Town all over the thread.

I'm trying to remember if you actually asked me to do this in Khan mafia.

Well of course, lynching scum is better than anything else. But you're telling me that your best lead in a game with 13 pages is a single post by a player who is likely to flake? Come on.

One really bad post though. I'm not going to really categorize it as my best lead mostly because I like the idea of lynching the previously mentioned scumreads and I don't really care what order they die in. All this is subject to change based on developments of the game. See disclaimer: This is my position as of these 5 minutes.

And checking it just now actually shows I never used the word "meta" in that game.

Oops.

But yes, I've asked people to go meta me in scum games, because it'd be stupid not to try and mimic behavior I know I have as scum. But honestly, my playstyles are still very far from each other as Town and as scum. I was scum three times in sequence after not being scum since

November

. Go look at that stuff, go look at my Town games. There's fresh meta everywhere and there's no reason for you to have any sort of doubt about me because I definitely think I'm one of the most obvious players on the site.

I don't really have the time to go into an extensive metagame analysis and I find meta borne from my personal experience to be more powerful and reliable to me anyway.

[Zachrulez]

To be fair, my vote on Pjovek is starting to look silly now given how early it was in the game and how much as happened then, coupled with the fact that I've lost some interest in it.

Zach remind me. I thought you thought your vote on Pjovek look silly and you lost interest in it?

I did, and then some subsequent posts and positions from him got me interested again.

[Zachrulez]

and the attempt to minimize the impact of spam on the game.

[Zachrulez]

Pjovik is not the person with the most posts in the thread. I think the spam complaints are a little overblown.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... rt_order=d

My point didn't have anything to do with how much spam he personally did or did not post, or even how much exists in the game.

[Zachrulez]

Read 286 in response to 285.

[Zachrulez]

It's because in 285 he tried to minimize the impact of spam in the game. Not sure how that point isn't clear. I didn't say he was doing it the most or that he himself was spamming, I said he was minimizing it's impact.

[Zachrulez]

What is weird about him potentially getting replaced though is that in the sign ups he was giving katsuki a bit of a hard time about playing but possibly replacing out. He said he wouldn't barring external circumstances and talked about how he really wanted to play, so him being gone is eh.

I never looked at the signup page much after actually signing up. Now I think I should.

[Zachrulez]

Everyone on mafiascum is a he.

[Zachrulez]

Unvote: Vote: MattP

No explanation needed I hope.

[Zachrulez]

^ lynch this with fire.

[Zachrulez]

Put your vote back on me. maybe you can save your scumbuddy.

If you feel this way certainly it makes sense to be voting for one of the two, like right now.

[Zachrulez]

I completely recognize my play has gone down the shitter. I attribute it to not having drawn scum at all (this bars ongoing game discussion) for like EIGHT months

I don't even remember what scum DO, every time I draw town in a game now I literally curse inside my head and on top of that I am more stressed than ever with work and mcats. I'm not refusing to fight for my life because I'm being immature, I'm rolling my eyes thinking about how dreadful our last game was when you tunneled me and knowing I do NOT have the mental capacity to deal with that shit right now. And that's not being a sore loser, because that on its own is me making a play. If you would like to disregard it or decide its scummy, fine

I have no choice but to keep joining games hoping for scum draws. I'm not going to be a bitch and replace out if I don't get it. But I'm discouraged and stressed and all alone with no friends in Chicago for two damn months working fifteen hours a day

So no I will not redo War is hell with you, especially when in my opinion you can be incredibly tunnely and dense

This is an actual argument you're making? Your play sucks because you haven't drawn scum? What the hell man?

[Zachrulez]

I'm in awe of the scale of this meltdown.

[Zachrulez]

Oh look I'm now officially getting angry so no longer looking at this thread

That's at least the 2nd time you've said that now.

[Zachrulez]

I don't need that kind of argument, Matt. But you're still focusing on the wrong thing. I'm having trouble seeing that coming from Town with limited time who KNEW this game was going to have harsh deadlines. What's with all the smoke screen instead of being useful where you can?

Zach I'm lynching the hell out of you if he flips Town. Stop trying to make him look worse instead of trying to make him be useful.

At this point I'm blacklisting him if he flips town. This is just ridiculous.

[Zachrulez]

Hell the whole I'm too busy to play the game shtick is my go to argument as scum.

[Zachrulez]

It is ridiculous, yes. But this Zhar-ptitsa is already :Justice: enough for one game and I am STILL trying to understand his mindset. You're not; you're adding more wood to the fire, and it bothers me.

If he's scum, I really don't care what his mindset is. If he's town I have reason to be upset, hence the reaction.

I don't think my reaction is unfair to him at all.

[Zachrulez]

I'm trying to be useful! I'm trying to get fiery lynched. Why wasn't I useful before that? I was moving to Chicago and starting up my job, today is my fourth day of work

Pedit: why should I be blacklisted?

This post right here.

It wasn't faking anything, I was TROLLING you

I am EXPLICITLY saying it wasn't a fake derp, it's so blatantly fucking obvious I wouldn't mistake "L1" and "L-1" when L1 isn't even a thing since L stands for lynch

I don't give a FUCK if you know my role, that is my role, I was being snarky and fullclaiming for shits, now if you would like to believe that I just fake nameclaimed and roleclaimed then congrats

Means that if you're town you're not taking the game seriously, and that's just bullshit.

Pedit2: you just said you're going to blacklist me for doing what you do as scum so you're now an asshole or scum

Saying you're too busy to play is meant to excuse poor activity and contribution, that's a separate point and it's not something I'd blacklist you for. If you're town and it's valid reasoning however, you probably shouldn't have signed up in the first place if you didn't think you'd have sufficient time to play.

[Zachrulez]

Put your vote back on me. maybe you can save your scumbuddy.

If you feel this way certainly it makes sense to be voting for one of the two, like right now.

I won't be chivvied into voting before I'm ready to vote.

I bring it up because I'm having trouble understanding your mindset. You're arguing from a position of apparent certainty not only in a scumread, but a pairing, but you don't have a vote to back it up. I don't understand that.

[Zachrulez]

Let's back this up a bit.

Why did you claim Matt?

Why when Tierce asked you why you moved to Antigen did you give her a dismissive response? It was a fair inquiry?

[Zachrulez]

Sorry the last sentence is not meant to have a question mark.

[Zachrulez]

Oh and Tierce, how reliably do you think you're able to read me based on meta? The answer to this is important to me.

[Zachrulez]

Zach: when did you decide I am Town?

Where do you get that conclusion?

[Zachrulez]

Put your vote back on me. maybe you can save your scumbuddy.

If you feel this way certainly it makes sense to be voting for one of the two, like right now.

I won't be chivvied into voting before I'm ready to vote.

I bring it up because I'm having trouble understanding your mindset. You're arguing from a position of apparent certainty not only in a scumread, but a pairing, but you don't have a vote to back it up. I don't understand that.

I made that comment mostly to draw a reaction. I am not displeased with the ensuing storm tbh. I do have a scum read on Antagon's slot. Matt just confuses me. I thought he looked more townish for it last night. Tierce's comments make sense. But, I dunno. I feel like I should trust my own read.

If I'm wrong about Matt and I put Antagon at L-1, then what do you expect Matt will do?

Oh, I took it at face value. Silly me.

[Zachrulez]

Zach: when did you decide I am Town?

Where do you get that conclusion?

The way you've been treating me.

Been starting to lean that way, I guess my posting perhaps is betraying that.

Still something eating at me about you though. See 473.

[Zachrulez]

Oh and Tierce, how reliably do you think you're able to read me based on meta? The answer to this is important to me.

Not much. My main thing on you was when you clearly jumped from being interested in just one thing or two to having a more spread focus, which matched with your schedule opening up. I liked it, and I like how promptly it happened, without a lot of fuss about that in specific. You began participating more when I pushed you, and THEN had that. I like that they don't match exactly in time, feels natural as Town response to pressure + Town response to more time to put into the game.

On meta, not really a lot. The only game I had with you when we were both Town was YOLOville, and I didn't have to worry much since you were confTown after a bit. My doubts are mostly based on Sottynoia, so you can thank her for it. >.>

I am not Sotty.

In mafia Sotty is the ultimate evil.

It's just that you expect me to meta you and be able to very clearly read you, but apparently of yourself don't expect the same thing of yourself when metaing people with similar metas. (:P) The question was important for me to pose because Sotty herself can clearly read me but the minute she draws scum she suddenly can't.

[Zachrulez]

Yeah I'm not saying I expect you to have a clear meta read on me Tierce, I was just curious as to what you felt your meta knowledge of me was, and lending some perspective that your expectations of my meta knowledge of you might be a little high, especially when compared to your expectations of your own meta knowledge. ^.^

[Zachrulez]

As far as Matt goes, I do understand the idea that drawing scum can help you catch scum because you have firsthand experience of what scum does, but I don't buy the argument because it's not the only tool in finding scum. There are many, and personal experience playing scum is only one of them.

[Zachrulez]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... ct[]=16768

Tammy this is a recent town game filled to the brim with AtE

I'm giving you a challenge. Find even a single scum game from me with even 10 AtE posts in it, if you want to use meta

Your most recent scum game is at least 8 months old? Not to mention you just deliberately asked to be metaed which just introduces WIFOM to the whole thing.

[Zachrulez]

Oh and now I've noticed implosion.

I read Matt's recent posts. Matt is almost certainly town.

I read Zach's 182 in depth. I don't like it. Some of the points are legitimate rebuttals, but trying to defend the push on pjovek is a bit odd, and calling the difference between pushing for a full or a partial massclaim a "semantic difference" when it is in fact a rather large difference seems to be sidestepping the main point that's being made, which is that his push lacked context.

A large difference? The difference is in the amount of what is being claimed. My point is that regardless of the level of information being claimed, I see little town benefit from massclaiming partially or fully on day one and see potential scum benefit to having information from any kind of massclaim. (I feel like I'm turning into a broken record.)

As i continue reading his iso, nothing sticks out as particularly townish. He made a specific point earlier that his reads are subject to change, implying that this is important.

Yeah I did. So what?

I feel like he's dismissing a lot of Mattp's posting as scummy when it's just bad play. I use the word dismissing here because I think a lot of his posting on matt feels like he's assuming that matt is scum and then deriving that Matt's play is bad scumplay. i.e., 493. Even not buying that argument does not make Matt scum. Even if his argument is completely wrong, that doesn't mean that Matt doesn't genuinely believe it. A bad argument can still be genuine.

You can genuinely believe in a bad argument and be scum, just saying.

The big elephant in the room with Matt is his vanilla town claim, it just comes out of nowhere, completely unpromted with only one vote on him... so you can't even argue that there were a lot of votes on him to where he could have misconstrued the vote count to believe he was at lynch -1.

Then his reaction to this "realization." It just doesn't ring true to me. It just feels way overacted.

So you have confused the hell out of town scum play on one side vs WTF town on the other, and to me it just makes more sense that it's more likely the former is what's going on. It's not that I'm dismissing town possibilities completely. It's that I find them less likely to be the case here.

HOORAY I DID THINGS

By doing things you mean affirming and further justifying your zach suspicion? I mean if you have any other suspects in this game I don't know about them. I just have my eyebrow raised because your play is starting to get to the point where you're determined to find something suspicious in my play and I'm not really sure if you're interested in the game as a whole or if you're just singularly interested in getting me lynched, and if the case of the latter if it's because you think I'm scum (hrrrrrrrrm) or simply because you think you can get me lynched. (I've read a bunch of quicktopics where scum actually bet on this.)

So yeah.

[Zachrulez]

What happens if someone who you don't target tries to kill you?

[Zachrulez]

I hate having moments of indecision. Argh.

I think I'm disinclined to lynch Antagon today though.

[Zachrulez]

Zach: when did you decide I am Town?

Where do you get that conclusion?

The way you've been treating me.

Been starting to lean that way, I guess my posting perhaps is betraying that.

Still something eating at me about you though. See 473.

This post is bothering me. If he was starting to lean that way, why would he be surprised she picked up on it? It just doesnt really fit with his wondering why he thought she was town.

Mostly because I hadn't gotten around to stating it and I didn't think I'd given any indication to it, but apparently I did. Being there doesn't mean there weren't things that were still eating at me about her. I mean if there wasn't anything bothering me about her, I'd have a much more solid read there.

My lack of attention to the game over the weekend was due to having lots of shiny distractions. My lack of attention in that timeframe isn't meant to say that I was never going to give the content in the game attention, just that I wasn't in much of a position to over the last couple of days.

Why did you feel the need to preempitvely defend yourself for this?

If you have to ask that, I have to wonder if you actually read the part of the game that came from.

[Zachrulez]

Hey.
Antagon's role is over powered like 2 dox.
Lynch now plox.

That doesn't make it more likely to be a fakeclaim. The fact that the role blatently looks WAY out there is what's actually giving me pause. I'd have been more suspicious if the role looked more fitting/convenient.

The only thing that gives me pause
is Tierce is setting up lynches based on an Antigon town filp.

But eh, that's best investigated after an antigon flip. Cause she's like fucking addicted to defending scum.[/quote]

I don't like her asking for that claim at lynch -2. I'm not denying that there was a good chance we'd get there eventually, but it's the fact that she did it, at lynch -2 and did it without voting him herself.

So there's that.

Seriously, if you want to pussy out of an Antigon lynch based on his claim, we could just force him to claim his target everyday, and then if he's ever bottoms up we can just lynch his target, which is lulzy, or he and his target are making it to end game, and unless we are fucking re re that's that's a town win too, so yeah, he's scum.

The claim raises the stakes on being wrong. I'm not exactly thrilled at the prospect of potentially lynching a powerful town power role, if we're going to lynch him I want more certainty that he's scum and I don't think we get that today. I find Matt to be a much stronger choice for a lynch at this point, plus I think a Matt scumflip points to Antagon scum anyway.

[Zachrulez]

Argh I missed a quote tag on that post.

Hey.
Antagon's role is over powered like 2 dox.
Lynch now plox.

That doesn't make it more likely to be a fakeclaim. The fact that the role blatently looks WAY out there is what's actually giving me pause. I'd have been more suspicious if the role looked more fitting/convenient.

The only thing that gives me pause
is Tierce is setting up lynches based on an Antigon town filp.

But eh, that's best investigated after an antigon flip. Cause she's like fucking addicted to defending scum.

I don't like her asking for that claim at lynch -2. I'm not denying that there was a good chance we'd get there eventually, but it's the fact that she did it, at lynch -2 and did it without voting him herself.

So there's that.

Seriously, if you want to pussy out of an Antigon lynch based on his claim, we could just force him to claim his target everyday, and then if he's ever bottoms up we can just lynch his target, which is lulzy, or he and his target are making it to end game, and unless we are fucking re re that's that's a town win too, so yeah, he's scum.

The claim raises the stakes on being wrong. I'm not exactly thrilled at the prospect of potentially lynching a powerful town power role, if we're going to lynch him I want more certainty that he's scum and I don't think we get that today. I find Matt to be a much stronger choice for a lynch at this point, plus I think a Matt scumflip points to Antagon scum anyway.

Yeah I don't have a good argument against that reasoning Tierce, just a strict metagame view that players should be asked to claim at lynch -1 under imminent threat of hammer. It's probably not a reasonable view when people like Benmage who hammer for the hell of it are playing mafia now that I think about it though.

[Zachrulez]

...I did. It struck me as weird the first time I read it through, but I figured I missed something. I think it's pretty obvious I reread most of the game tonight and no it didn't strike me as natural this time either. Feel free to point me to what I missed.

You're making a mountain of a molehill here.

[Zachrulez]

...I did. It struck me as weird the first time I read it through, but I figured I missed something. I think it's pretty obvious I reread most of the game tonight and no it didn't strike me as natural this time either. Feel free to point me to what I missed.

You're making a mountain of a molehill here.

I'm not making anything. I asked you a question as I'm trying to clear up my read on you. If I missed something, why didn't you just point it out?

No I mean you're making too big a deal of that particular action. The game started on the weekend and I had other things on my mind so I felt I should explain that my early play came from very limited attention to the game. I don't even get how you think that has scum motivation, because it would make more sense to wait till I actually get called out for it before I defend myself from it. It's like you're reading through my play and

trying to find something.

Something that isn't there. Seriously if you have any doubts about your read of me go read 160B again.

[Zachrulez]

I mean it's like you would have preferred I say nothing there and try to skate by? I have no idea what your expectations are there.

[Zachrulez]

Oh wait. I'm still voting Tammy.
UNVOTE:
Expect some content when I don't have to deal with school, which should probably happen during the weekend.

Hope you realize I still expect this from you Antagon.

Also interested in what Amrun will bring given who she's replacing. A lot will rest on how she makes her entrance there.

Waiting for content from places that I was waiting for it from when the weekend started... ect.

[Zachrulez]

Oh wait. I'm still voting Tammy.
UNVOTE:
Expect some content when I don't have to deal with school, which should probably happen during the weekend.

Hope you realize I still expect this from you Antagon.

Also interested in what Amrun will bring given who she's replacing. A lot will rest on how she makes her entrance there.

*here.

[Zachrulez]

I'm liking Antagon even less now that he hasn't really done any real scumhunting since his claim. He left an indicator that he would be able to provide more content over the weekend but aside from talking about his claim... nothing.

Not really sure what I think of Matt now at this point.

Unvote: Vote: Hp [leaves]

On iso I don't like him... or his predecessor at all.

I'd be pretty happy with this day if it ended with an Antagon, Hp, or Amrun (If she doesn't come through with any content.) lynch.

[Zachrulez]

Zachrulez (1) ~ implosion
Pjovek (1) ~ sword_of_omens
hp [leaves] (1) ~ Zachrulez

Not Voting: fferyllt, Antagon

I hate the reasoning for the vote.

I also have no idea what these people think they are doing.

Trying... probably in vain to get an hp wagon going.

[Zachrulez]

Yeah my thought is that the role is quite useful for either alignment.

[Zachrulez]

I'm not sure what others interpretations are of what Antagon claimed, but even the jailing ability by itself is of some use to scum because it can neutralize roles even if it comes at the cost of being unable to kill the target.

What makes the claimed role more useful to scum from an analytical standpoint is the kill immunity he's claiming it grants him (Aside from the target themself.) and the fact that it make him immune to any role that would target him.

There's an argument for a chance of terrible town play here, which I would be lying if I said I wasn't concerned about that possibility, but the role itself definitely would be useful as a scum role.

[Zachrulez]

If you go through you and your predecessor's iso HP, you can see that both of you lack any posts of real substance. It's kinda funny how you rail me for not having a reason for my votes when I haven't really seen your slot give any reasoning for any plays you have made to this point.

[Zachrulez]

It's what we call being active without really saying anything, that's not null.

[Zachrulez]

I'm liking Antagon even less now that he hasn't really done any real scumhunting since his claim. He left an indicator that he would be able to provide more content over the weekend but aside from talking about his claim... nothing.

Not really sure what I think of Matt now at this point.

Unvote: Vote: Hp [leaves]

On iso I don't like him... or his predecessor at all.

I'd be pretty happy with this day if it ended with an Antagon, Hp, or Amrun (If she doesn't come through with any content.) lynch.

I read the first line
then I read the second
Then I saw the vote
and my head exploded

Help me understand this, Zach. Why, if Antigon has given you nothing and you believe him scummier for it, are you changing your vote? What makes hp[leaves] a worthier lynch than Antigon?

I think I've gone as far as to state a willingness to lynch him. The claim still does give me some reluctance to do so. Still, it's possible to have more then one suspect and I don't think I ever actually said I found Antagon scummier than hp.

[Zachrulez]

I just came here to say... God dammit!

[Zachrulez]

I really think the town should have had this after massclaim. Both scum claimed power roles and everyone else vanilla. The claimed power roles not dying should have been something the scumteam had a hard time explaining away. (Nevermind that Syryana flipped doublevoter, he never claimed it.)

[Zachrulez]

VOTE: Zachrulez

VOTE: fferyllt

VOTE: MattP

VOTE: hp [leaves]

VOTE: Katsuki

14) Zachrulez - Mallow (from the Mario series), Town Vanilla - Sublimed Night 1.
6) hp [leaves] - Sheba (from Golden Sun), Town Vanilla - Lynched Day 2.
5) MattP - Rosalina (from the Mario series), Town Vanilla - Impaled Night 2.
2) fferyllt - Rainbow Dash (from My Little Pony), Town Vanilla - Lynched Day 7.
4) Katsuki - Aya Syameimaru (from Touhou Project), Town Vanilla - Endgamed Night 7.

Behold my spectacular vanilla cop lynches!

I clearly wanted to beat Magua's reads in HunterxHunterxHunter.

I don't understand the animosity toward Pjovek and Whimsical Eggplant. They weren't any worse than any other flaking scum player, and your team won the game. Antagon in particular dug himself into a hole and his fakeclaim (and its botching) was his own fault. He could have certainly done better, and blaming Whimsical Eggplant for everything that happened (especially in

that

manner) is rather out of place.

Congratulations to the scumteam.

I'm actually looking back to see where it went wrong with me, and I think in terms of day 1 play I started derailing onto townies after resistance to my earlier votes forced me to actually think. Gut good. Thinking bad!

Hey Zach--want to obvTown so I can stop worrying about players 10-15? That'd look really cool on my notes.

Want to help me lynch Pjovek? It would fill me with warm feelings inside.

Remember Tierce, next time just say yes to a good speed lynchin.