Calvin and Hobbes Mafia(GAME OVER! Grownups Mafia Wins!)

[Desperado]

Vote: Skullduggery

[Desperado]

Skull is working on town rationale. Too bad scum can play that card, too.
Not getting the Irish Pope/Zoidberg tension. It feels contrived, given they're both flinging baseless arguments back and forth as if they had merit.
Otherwise, I definitely don't like how inflammatory Irish Pope is, especially in response to Skullduggery.
We're getting nowhere as it is.

My history with big games has generally been a pretty big day 1, then short days for the rest. Honestly, I'd prefer lynching out weaker players so they don't make it to those last clutch days.
Also, those players could easily be scum hiding behind the guise of being a weak player, or playing to their meta, etc.
Not that there's much else to go on at page 8 right now. Eh, maybe I'll comb the thread and notice something worthwhile.

What I got from this:

"Skull seems town- wait, no that's how scum can play too."
"Pope-Zoidberg is contrived, Pope is being obtuse."
"I'm all for policy lynching weaker players, regardless of alignment."
"You see, newer players -could- be scum."
"I might re-read."

1/5 useful things.

There's a useful thing in that lot?

Vote: Varsoon

And I naked voted in RVS because I felt like it.

[Desperado]

Desperado, you don't need to be so defensive if you're town. /shrug.

This is a weird misrep. TSO bolded a question asking me to explain my naked vote. So I answered him. How does this equate to me being so defensive?

[Desperado]

TIP has the right read here. Town doesn't need to take the time to tell you that they will say what they want, when the want, to whom they want...they just do it.

[Desperado]

But yeah, you caught me, I'm scum.

Sarcastic confession tell

Let's go guys, more votes on Varsoon

[Desperado]

wut.....


I-don't-even.



There are not words....



Just none....



Leaving now before TIP atrophies my brain via prolonged exposure.

WTF is this shit? There was nothing wrong with what TIP said and it was perfectly cogent.

[Desperado]

Ok, desperado can be a TIP buddy XD. In what world is that cogent? Seriously man, look at that again and open your eyes Z_Z.

How about you get more specific and tell him what you didn't understand, rather than just completely disengaging him?

He typed up a bunch of letters together into words and sentences, and they made sense in conjunction with one another. That's what cogent means.

[Desperado]

As far as I'm concerned a zoidberg scumflip confirms multiball.

Do 20+ player games usually have about 5/6 scum?

In our last game (xenoblade), it was a multiball setup, so I didn't want to go into this one expecting it just because that was the norm for me so far.

I'm in two ongoing larges and both are confirmed multiball.

Unvote
Vote: Zoidberg

[Desperado]

Multiball or not, I smell Scum on Zoidberg's wagon. They smell like sauerkraut. Unmistakable scent. Very pungent. Desperado, my friend, you seem fairly confident that Varsoon is Scum, but you switched over to Zoidberg at the drop of a hat. Why is he suddenly a bigger priority than Varsoon?

Wasn't getting much traction on a Varsoon wagon and I liked the Zoidberg case.

[Desperado]

What is up with this TIP white-knighting from Desperado?

Be more specific about how calling out players for skirting a discussion by blatantly disengaging another player is scummy.

[Desperado]

Why would it be bizarre?

Zoidberg was asking deliberately obtuse questions that he already knew the answer to, and Tiphaine chose to discredit TIP over engaging him. You would expect townies to just let these things go?

And for all of quote mining you're apparently doing, you aren't even reading any of it. I did vote for Varsoon (in fact, I voted him before everything you're referencing here), and cogent arguments =/= persuasive arguments.

[Desperado]

Desperado, can we talk about roflcopter please?

You keep rhetorically asking if we can talk about rolf, but then you just keep it open ended. If you want to talk about him...ask me something.

[Desperado]

Hey TSO what do you think about TIP and Roflcopter?

Rather than speculate about what the scum flavour is, let's talk about Roflcopter and IrishPope.

Desperado, can we talk about roflcopter please?

I didn't say you were repeatedly asking me.

And 303 is a stretch.

It falls apart completely if Rofl isn't voting you for your flavor speculation.

And I can't see the line of thought that town would have when guessing scum rolenames at all. You've admitted that it's even more useless than normal speculation unless we have a role cop, so why (as town) would you even concern yourself with it?

The fact that you have multiple posts speculating on the flavor AND multiple posts pointing out how said speculation is both useless and patently obvious to anyone familiar with the theme is the main reason I'm voting you right now.

[Desperado]

Psyche looks terrible here, even worse than TIP blatantly lying

[Desperado]

Psyche, why are you so defensive of all these other players? You've spent more time defending players (even TIP, who you had a non-rvs-vote on earlier) then pushing good cases. Are you just trying to earn yourself some towncred?

I don't have to worry about earning towncred in this game. I'm just trying to 1) collect a lot of townreads and 2) contribute in the most protown way possible until we're at a point when I can push a case confidently (when I finish my program that will analyze tells like Varsoon's scumclaim, etc, and enough posts in this thread have been made).

My attitude toward D1 is a lot like NS's except more actually helpful. :/

You know who doesn't have any trouble collecting D1 town reads and appearing protown? Scum.

[Desperado]

Vote: Zoidberg

[Desperado]

I'm struggling to find anything interesting to say about it. You have anything?

[Desperado]

It's just as likely to be a scum team that has a daykill. Especially if it's multiball (!) and they have daytalk (!).

[Desperado]

I don't understand. If you think it's a town dayvig, why should we look at BRO? There's no reason to examine his posts if you think a townie killed him.

[Desperado]

I don't understand. If you think it's a town dayvig, why should we look at BRO? There's no reason to examine his posts if you think a townie killed him.

[Desperado]

Varsoon:

I don't understand. If you think it's a town dayvig, why should we look at BRO? There's no reason to examine his posts if you think a townie killed him.

[Desperado]

When Varsoon claims scum

he means it

lynch him ffs


Roflcopter is also a good lynch though I would join

If you have meta on Varsoon why haven't you linked it yet?

[Desperado]

When Varsoon claims scum

he means it

lynch him ffs


Roflcopter is also a good lynch though I would join

If you have meta on Varsoon why haven't you linked it yet?

[Desperado]

@TIP: Only Scum deal in absolutes.

Zoidberg, don't think you're off the hook. I've got full intent to hammer your ass whenever it comes up. You're confirmed scum to me.

This dude is scum yo

[Desperado]

admitting

You should really start reading. Varsoon has already explicitly said he wasn't soft claiming anything.

[Desperado]

Unvote
Vote: roflcopter

[Desperado]

@Zoidberg: I'm not soft-claiming, I'm just hoping people actually -read- what I'm posting before they spout nonsense and slam votes that get town nowhere.

[Desperado]

Also, Zoidberg...you really didn't need to claim. When you realized that you're "why don't you just unvote and vote rofl for a while" campaign wasn't working, maybe you should have just tried something else?

It's not like you were in danger of getting lynched.

With that said, it is a large theme, so I don't have a huge problem with claiming D1 with caught scum. You'll be protected somehow tonight, I'm sure.

[Desperado]

We lynch Zoidberg
NOW

...

Why?

[Desperado]

Looks like a contradiction to me.

He was saying things that others were interpreting as a soft claim (I know Zoid is scum), and then said "I am not soft claiming anything."

Then he says he has information (that implicates Zoid as scum) but he doesn't want that to be the whole case? Why not?

If he's a PR then his info on Zoidscum is all he needs.

So yeah, I saw it. He's scum.

[Desperado]

Reading Varsoon's case in full, I have no problem seeing Zoid bussing rofl here. The case is good.

Zoid's "I'm trying to be like Nacho" line and then complaining about Varsoon's AtE right before calling us all sheep for believing his case are amazingly miscalculated.

Also, seeing that case and then just claiming without even bothering to address anything Varsoon said is super scummy.

[Desperado]

Right, and I have a quote of him saying he isn't softing anything before he posted that.

So why would he say he isn't softing and then soft something?

[Desperado]

Varsoon not being capable of expressing the scum motivation in your posts doesn't negate the case.

Sometimes IIOA is good. I know I certainly wouldn't have taken the time to do that. But putting everything in one place (with relevant links) for those players that CAN understand and express scum motivation is pro-town.

Basically...there's a certain point where something goes from mere IIOA to a catalog of information. If he had just picked out a couple quotes for each point and said "look, this is this thing, that's that thing, and there's that thing over there" then you would have a point...but he linked every single post you've made and had a relevant comment for every single one.

The dedication is genuinely town.

[Desperado]

I'm telling you, "description in a scummy light" is a very powerful tool.

I have no doubt that it's powerful, which is why varsoon thinks he can get away with it.

One could easily go through the same list of posts that Varsoon did, explain them the same way that Varsoon did, but put editorialized comments on it that are positive instead of negative. All of a sudden it's a clear and strident defense written by someone who thinks Zoidberg is obvtown.

That is, of course, until you actually notice that his case is hollow and without merit.

We have plenty of time. Go ahead and do it.

[Desperado]

Varsoon not being capable of expressing the scum motivation in your posts doesn't negate the case.

Yes it does.

Sometimes IIOA is good. I know I certainly wouldn't have taken the time to do that. But putting everything in one place (with relevant links) for those players that CAN understand and express scum motivation is pro-town.

So point out the scum motivation behind each post, then? Find the words that Varsoon can't?

[quote[Basically...there's a certain point where something goes from mere IIOA to a catalog of information. If he had just picked out a couple quotes for each point and said "look, this is this thing, that's that thing, and there's that thing over there" then you would have a point...but he linked every single post you've made and had a relevant comment for every single one.

Well, he made a comment about each one. But if he can't show why it's scummy and just says "Zoidberg did xyz in this post" then it's not relevant; it's just paraphrasing.[/quote]

I'm saying that just slapping an IIOA label on the whole post and calling it irrelevant is fucking crazy.

And there's like, a less than zero chance that I will ever do that. I see scum motivation in your play. I have all day.

The possibility that you're a scum PR for one team that caught scum from the other team makes excites me.

[Desperado]

Or maybe he's blowing smoke up everyone's ass

[Desperado]

Go through your post history and identify scum motivation.

Whatever way this works out, that's never going to be a priority for me.

[Desperado]

yawn

He already said he was just saying those things to get people to pay attention to him once. I have no trouble believing he's a VT claiming to be a PR, or a PR being wishy washy, or any number of scenarios.

And I said the

dedication

was genuinely town. Don't twist my words.

[Desperado]

Or maybe he's blowing smoke up everyone's ass

I thought you said he was genuinely town?

Go through your post history and identify scum motivation.

Whatever way this works out, that's never going to be a priority for me.

... good?

PBPA's are almost always useless anyways.

Why are you responding to that as if you didn't tell me to "put it into the words that Varsoon can't?"

[Desperado]

Multiple scum factions.

[Desperado]

Back. Since no one was posting at 5 AM my time, I slept... until 5 PM. I really need to fix my schedule, but it's summer.



Anyway, I'm not surprised to see Zoidberg completely dismantling my case. S'what he does against any accusations made against him, more or less.
Gets mad, gets rude, says it has no merit, claims the approach is useless, etc.
If rofl turned up scum to Zoidberg, then the best possible route is STILL lynch Zoidberg first, then lynch roflcopter. This way, we know Zoid isn't lying about his role PM (No one ever lied about their role PM, right?), and if he is, we can see his case on rofl being bullshit.

Like I said, he's probably a powerful one-shot scum role. He'd do anything to live through the night, even if it is claiming daycop so that he can direct a lynch (or a bus) just to get through one more day.

We have 21 players. We just caught one that was definitely scum. The answer is easy. We lynch Zoidberg. If he flips his role, we lynch scum-roflcopter. If he flips scum, we'll decide what to do from there. I'm positive he's scum, though, and what he posted is likely a fakeclaim.

Are you high?

He claimed JOAT. There is no way we are lynching Zoid first to test his claim, and I honestly struggle to understand how you even came to that conclusion.

[Desperado]

Why are you including "If he flips his role, we lynch scum-rofl" when you are "positive" that he's scum fakeclaiming?

You are scummy as fuck man

P-Edit: He has claimed JOAT with less than 8 abilities. Likely the standard 4.

You are suggesting we lynch a claimed town JOAT with a daycop ability to test his claim.

There is no fucking way we are doing that.

[Desperado]

I've been in games like this before, where a scum claimed a one-shot PR to attempt to scramble for a little more life in the game. It didn't work then, and I don't want to see it work now.

Links

[Desperado]

@Psyche: No, unlike scum-Zoidberg, I'm not going to use my claim to give my argument leverage.

You're gonna lose then

[Desperado]

None of those are even close to this situation. Zoidberg wasn't in danger of getting lynched, and certainly isn't saving his own ass.

He's trying to get someone lynched.

The only scenario where I would consider lynching Zoid today is if ROFL claims a PR himself. And then Varsoon would have to claim with his info on Zoid.

[Desperado]

THE WHOLE REASON HE CLAIMED THAT PR WAS SO YOU'D BELIEVE THAT SHIT AND AVOID LYNCHING HIM.
HE'S LYING.
HE HAS A STRONG SCUM PR, LIKELY ONE-SHOT.
HE INTENDS TO USE IT TONIGHT.
WE HAVE TO LYNCH HIM TODAY.
HE WILL SAY LITERALLY ANYTHING TO TRY TO AVOID THAT AND CURRY TOWN FAVOR.

Yeah I bet being on L-7 was really making scum-Zoid quake in his boots.

Come on man. He claimed PR to get ROFL lynched, not save his ass. This is a crazy misrep.

[Desperado]

Too bad. Would have been great to have a 2nd scum caught.

Someone hammer please.

Why are you calling for a hammer? rofl only has like 4 votes on him

[Desperado]

Skull is gonna have a fucking aneurysm when he checks this thread

[Desperado]

Yeah you're right, that vote count was way out of date and I missed a page on a reread.

[Desperado]

He's actually saying that he'll only believe Zoid is town when he flips town and proves his unspecified info wrong.

[Desperado]

I'm very interested in hearing more about Varsoon's role.

As in, that needs to happen before we do anything else.

[Desperado]

Vote: Varsoon

[Desperado]

He tracked you to one of the dead people...

[Desperado]

Like that's pretty damning evidence.

And then you told him he's full of it even though he confirms what you claim to have done.

And then you were totally nonspecific about what information you got that confirmed the setup as multiball which is weird because you're argument is that Zoid is scum because he knows it's multiball (because he's scum) and he slipped, but...you're town, and you know it's multiball. So why is he automatically scum???

Oh yeah because you're scum.

[Desperado]

OK. But you still visited Radioactive.

And what does TIPscum gain from fakeclaiming tracker with a guilty on you?

Your "Would you jump off a bridge if he told you to?" defense is pathetic.

[Desperado]

Why would TIPscum feel like he needed to claim for false leverage this early in the day? It's not like you've been a paragon of towniness. You tunneled a claimed town PR (that caught scum) based on role PM knowledge because...he slipped in a way that revealed he had role PM knowledge. Your justification above is extremely lacking.

Look at the facts man.

You claim to be a miller neighborizer whose N1 target died. The level of convenience here is far past bordering on reasonable.
Another person has claimed town PR who tracked you to the kill.
You made an ill fated push on another claimed town PR and continue to champion his lynch even though he must eventually confirm himself or die.

If it walks like a duck, and it talks like a duck...it's probably scum.

PEdit: soft claimed miller. Give me a fucking break.

[Desperado]

That's like asking "Are your steaks, absent their seasoning, flavorful?"

The case against Varsoon is that his claim reeks, he got tracked to the kill, and he tried to get a claimed town PR lynched because he said they had slipped up with information that only scum could have, even though he himself had that information (and claims to be town).

I don't care if his posts are "genuine" or any other buzzwords you can come up with. He's dirty as shit and needs rope.

[Desperado]

He isn't a daycop, he's a Jack of all trades.

And it's not that I can't be reasoned with. There is overwhelming evidence that you're scum. There's a difference.

[Desperado]

Why did you want to neighborize Skull?

[Desperado]

No Varsoon, I'm not pressing the point that you confirmed multiball. I am pressing the point that you purport to be town, you have role PM information that confirms multiball, and you were convinced that another player was scum because they said something that may or my not have been a slip confirming multiball.

Nowhere in your analysis did you allow for the possibility that he was town with the same information you had. What's the town motivation for that?

Oh yeah there is none.
And you got tracked to the kill
And you "soft claimed" miller
And your neighborizer target died

PEdit: What would you say to my making the argument that you're scum and you wanted to tried to kill the most pro-town player in the game?

[Desperado]

No Varsoon, I'm not pressing the point that you confirmed multiball. I am pressing the point that you purport to be town, you have role PM information that confirms multiball, and you were convinced that another player was scum because they said something that may or my not have been a slip confirming multiball.

Nowhere in your analysis did you allow for the possibility that he was town with the same information you had. What's the town motivation for that?

Oh yeah there is none.
And you got tracked to the kill
And you "soft claimed" miller
And your neighborizer target died

PEdit: What would you say to my making the argument that you're scum and you wanted to tried to kill the most pro-town player in the game?

[Desperado]

@Desperado: I've already explained the town motivation and my thought-process. Please actually read my case and my posts explaining why I believe Zoidberg's info on multi-ball is scum-influenced.

Also, please actually -read my entire case built against Zoidberg-. You know, the one that Zoidberg dismissed as useless and everyone ignored. I've laid out more than a few reasons for him to be scum, but if you continue to selectively ignore information, it's not like I can stop you--and it's not worth talking to you anymore.

Reading Varsoon's case in full, I have no problem seeing Zoid bussing rofl here. The case is good.

Zoid's "I'm trying to be like Nacho" line and then complaining about Varsoon's AtE right before calling us all sheep for believing his case are amazingly miscalculated.

Also, seeing that case and then just claiming without even bothering to address anything Varsoon said is super scummy.

Varsoon not being capable of expressing the scum motivation in your posts doesn't negate the case.

Sometimes IIOA is good. I know I certainly wouldn't have taken the time to do that. But putting everything in one place (with relevant links) for those players that CAN understand and express scum motivation is pro-town.

Basically...there's a certain point where something goes from mere IIOA to a catalog of information. If he had just picked out a couple quotes for each point and said "look, this is this thing, that's that thing, and there's that thing over there" then you would have a point...but he linked every single post you've made and had a relevant comment for every single one.

The dedication is genuinely town.

Go fuck yourself bro.

[Desperado]

Cool,

So, why are you riding my ass instead of Zoidberg's?

Because a lot has changed since you made that case.

[Desperado]

@Rubicon: You can start by showcasing what you feel is bad about it?

He repeatedly emphasizes that you were tracked to the kill in almost every post he's made since your claim, tries to suggest that this is "pretty damning evidence"

even after Psyche correctly pointed out that if you were redirected as you say, the result would be the same.

He's determined to get you mislynched. If this is multiball, he's acting exactly like I'd expect him to act as scum.

This doesn't make any sense, particularly the bolded

Varsoon targeted Radioactive
He is now dead
Someone tracked him to the kill

Why shouldn't I be mentioning this?

[Desperado]

@Rubicon: You can start by showcasing what you feel is bad about it?

He repeatedly emphasizes that you were tracked to the kill in almost every post he's made since your claim, tries to suggest that this is "pretty damning evidence"

even after Psyche correctly pointed out that if you were redirected as you say, the result would be the same.

He's determined to get you mislynched. If this is multiball, he's acting exactly like I'd expect him to act as scum.

This doesn't make any sense, particularly the bolded

Varsoon targeted Radioactive
He is now dead
Someone tracked him to the kill

Why shouldn't I be mentioning this?

[Desperado]

are you fucking serious

[Desperado]

So...I need you to explain why you did that, and then fullclaim again.

[Desperado]

Yes I'm aware of how game mechanics work.

Now explain how this doesn't implicate Varsoon as Radioactive's killer.

[Desperado]

@Desperado: I already explained why a trace on me would turn up that way. I did before traces were even mentioned. I did not know I was traced until TIP said he traced me.

That's great, but as scum you have no choice BUT to explain why the track would turn up that way. If you hadn't been redirected, and Skull had died instead, and TIP still tracked you, you'd just be saying the same thing.

"I tried to neighborize Skull but he's dead now so if you tracked me to him that's why, and btw if you got a guilty on me it's because I'm a miller."

And claiming scum and then later saying that that was a breadcrumb to you being a miller is just...it's out there, man.

[Desperado]

It's a lot more plausible that one of the scum-teams that made the radio-wolf NK also had my actions redirected to radio, so that in the case of a tracker following me, the case could be levied against me for a mislynch.

hahahahahahahahahaha "it's a lot more plausible" you have got to be kidding me.

Either you're town and the target of an elaborate frame job that includes two scum PRs and a town PR

Or you're scum and you killed Radioactive.

Occam's Razor.

[Desperado]

@Desperado: I already explained why a trace on me would turn up that way. I did before traces were even mentioned. I did not know I was traced until TIP said he traced me.

That's great, but as scum you have no choice BUT to explain why the track would turn up that way. If you hadn't been redirected, and Skull had died instead, and TIP still tracked you, you'd just be saying the same thing.

"I tried to neighborize Skull but he's dead now so if you tracked me to him that's why, and btw if you got a guilty on me it's because I'm a miller."

And claiming scum and then later saying that that was a breadcrumb to you being a miller is just...it's out there, man.

Why would Varsoon assume he'd been tracked? If he thought he was going to be tracked, why would he have done the kill in the first place?

Maybe he doesn't have a choice.

I don't have access to a scum role PM so I can't tell you how their nightkill works, but I can imagine several scenarios that would force him to perform the kill.

[Desperado]

Vote: Zoidberg

[Desperado]

You both did the exact same thing. You both lied to advance a lynch. But you're saying we should be lynching Varsoons for it, but not you.

I suppose so, yes.

I'm not the one who's been tracked to the nightkill and is claiming miller, though.

Yeah it's actually worse, because Varsoon COULD be telling you the truth.

Your lie has been completely exposed.

[Desperado]

He didn't, rofl was just "completely obvscum" and the wagon was losing steam.

[Desperado]

^ the sheer odds against Zoidberg correctly guessing rofl scum on the 2-3 posts rofl had made are what make me think zoid's scum.

also ITT: Desperado avoids my question and silently switches away from the line of attack I was criticizing him for.

...what did I avoid?

And yes, I "silently switched away" after Zoidberg fucking admitted to lying about his role.

[Desperado]

@Desperado: I already explained why a trace on me would turn up that way. I did before traces were even mentioned. I did not know I was traced until TIP said he traced me.

That's great, but as scum you have no choice BUT to explain why the track would turn up that way. If you hadn't been redirected, and Skull had died instead, and TIP still tracked you, you'd just be saying the same thing.

"I tried to neighborize Skull but he's dead now so if you tracked me to him that's why, and btw if you got a guilty on me it's because I'm a miller."

And claiming scum and then later saying that that was a breadcrumb to you being a miller is just...it's out there, man.

Why would Varsoon assume he'd been tracked? If he thought he was going to be tracked, why would he have done the kill in the first place?

Maybe he doesn't have a choice.

I don't have access to a scum role PM so I can't tell you how their nightkill works, but I can imagine several scenarios that would force him to perform the kill.

Okay, but why would he think someone was going to track him?

Why are asking me why Varsoon thought something? I have no idea why Varsoon thought he got tracked.

[Desperado]

Guys are you forgetting that I tracked Varsoon and he killed radioactive

It is possible that a third party also visited radioactive and performed the kill

Varsoon: day/night vig, not cop

[Desperado]

@Zoid: Wasn't Radioactive Wolf's flip two-shot day/night cop?

No. He wasn't. Go sit in the corner and don't come back until you've actually read the thread.

You really think this approach is going to be effective at this point?

[Desperado]

@Zoid: Wasn't Radioactive Wolf's flip two-shot day/night cop?

No. He wasn't. Go sit in the corner and don't come back until you've actually read the thread.

You really think this approach is going to be effective at this point?

[Desperado]

So I said fuck it, I'll do what I gotta do to get my scumread lynched.

:getout:

[Desperado]

This speculation is important because Zoidberg has just implied that he was planning to come clean at Twilight, but earlier today said he was planning to claim Hider to prevent protection by a doctor.

I'm not moving my vote today, no way.

How about for now we all go back to lynching people for being scummy. <3

Which means

vote NS

[Desperado]

This speculation is important because Zoidberg has just implied that he was planning to come clean at Twilight, but earlier today said he was planning to claim Hider to prevent protection by a doctor.

I'm not moving my vote today, no way.

How about for now we all go back to lynching people for being scummy. <3

Which means

vote NS

lol u gonna lynch me for it or are you just spamming?

I'm cataloging my displeasure with what you just did so that if I have to ISO myself later I'll know what it's in reference to

The scumminess is pretty self explanatory, so I'm glad you picked up on that

But I'm gonna keep voting Zoidberg. You know, the guy you said you'd never unvote today 20 posts ago before unvoting him.

[Desperado]

boxxy can you quote what you consider Zoid's rofl case to have been?

[Desperado]

I find that highly unlikely.

[Desperado]

And you know that's a lie because...

[Desperado]

He's saying he can't talk about what he and Rubicon talked about via PMs

Why are you trying so hard to misrep this?

[Desperado]

I told Rubi to ask him in thread so he responds in thread
Rubi hasn't
Because he knows Monkey will answer against him

Monkey did respond. He said he won't be talking about PMs between him and a player (which is the proper response as a mod)

[Desperado]

So his claim can't be proven
Riddle me this: why would Town say something that is unprovable?

Are you serious?

Do you not have experience with PGOs or what?

[Desperado]

Uhmmm no

Please die.

[Desperado]

PGOs? What are you on about?

His claim is that anyone who targets him dies

What do you think I'm on about?

[Desperado]

Such as?

[Desperado]

Yeah it was

[Desperado]

Right here pal

What's up?

[Desperado]

You know what's up. Explain now.

I'd like to know what your report says first

[Desperado]

No I really don't.

Or I wouldn't have said that I want to know what it says

[Desperado]

I did visit you. Is that all it said?

[Desperado]

I'm a town PR, and your report is incomplete.

That's about all you're going to get for right now. In the future, if you track someone, and they visit someone, and that person doesn't die...don't just out them at the start of the day.

Luckily I'm not a doctor, but what if I was?

What do you hope to gain from just telling me to explain why I visited you?

[Desperado]

What if you were a scum PR?

What kind of scum PR to you expect me to have that I would be visiting you without you dying?

[Desperado]

I'm not playing stupid with you, I'm trying to explain why what you did was stupid and needless...if you're still alive after I visited you, and a mafia roleblocker already flipped, and you already claimed your role (rendering a rolecop useless)...then I'm probably a town PR and you should keep your mouth shut or make something up.

Instead you just said "Where is Desperado...explain yourself!"

Which I will now, in full.

I'm

Calvin's Sled, the town bus driver

.

Last night I switched you with boxxy.

Night one I switched Skullduggery with Radioactive (whoops).

I kinda still want to lynch Varsoon for his atrocious claim, and if he can't confirm someone else as his neighbor I can't envision a scenario where he's town.

[Desperado]

No shit Skull.

That's why I asked him if that's all it said

And that's why I told him it's incomplete

[Desperado]

That vote (and reasoning) is honestly insulting

[Desperado]

Just so we're clear, your logic with that vote is this:

1) I'm scum with a scum PR
2) I targeted the tracker
3) He tracked me to him
4) He claimed that he tracked me and I visited him
5) I asked him specifically if that was all it said
6) He affirmed
7) I, as scum, fake claimed bus driver anyway, even though it doesn't match his results and I had confirmed with him before claiming that he only visited one person

I don't fucking care if it's WIFOM...do you seriously think I'm that stupid?!?

[Desperado]

Bus Driver can be scum as well

Actually, it is scum most of the time

So you can be scum Bus Driver
Or scum whatever planning to fakeclaim scum since D2

Yes it can be

You're going to have to support the claim that it is most of the time though. Links?

Your last line doesn't make any sense.

[Desperado]

Sorry if you feel that way, Desperado. Do you think that Pope is lying about his results then?

I think it's more likely to be mod error than anything else.

I was surprised to get a bus driver role PM in the first place, it wouldn't be a shock if he doesn't know how to handle it properly (for example, my role PM doesn't actually say that I do what I'm supposed to do, and I had to ask for clarification)

[Desperado]

Bus Driver would actually explain what happened N1 very well, no?

It really saddens me that Varsoon is town.

Miller/Neighborizer with him trying to neighborize the guy that I redirected into death just seemed so fucking convenient.

[Desperado]

I already did.

Both times I was trying to redirect a scum kill away from a protown player.

[Desperado]

Why were you so dubious about Varsoon's claim if you knew that you were behind the highly convenient redirection?

The redirection wasn't the convenient part.

This:

@Desperado: I already explained why a trace on me would turn up that way. I did before traces were even mentioned. I did not know I was traced until TIP said he traced me.

That's great, but as scum you have no choice BUT to explain why the track would turn up that way. If you hadn't been redirected, and Skull had died instead, and TIP still tracked you, you'd just be saying the same thing.

"I tried to neighborize Skull but he's dead now so if you tracked me to him that's why, and btw if you got a guilty on me it's because I'm a miller."

And claiming scum and then later saying that that was a breadcrumb to you being a miller is just...it's out there, man.

sums up my feelings about it.

[Desperado]

Yeah...I'm not liking the circumstances of this claim.

Go on

[Desperado]

So the real reason you wanted to lynch Varsoon yesterday was because of the miller neighbor claim, not the tracking to the kill?

It was both. I wouldn't have known that varsoon was at all involved with radios death without TIP tracking him.

[Desperado]

TIP is either lying or Monkey doesn't understand how to run his own setup. Given the mistake he made in my role PM, I'm inclined to go with the latter.

Psyche, if I really were the mafia redirector as you hypothesize, please explain why I claimed bus driver when it a) gives me no towncred and b) directly contradicts the report of another known PR after asking him to clarify his report.

[Desperado]

For posterity, Monkey said in my role PM that I target two players each night and the targets of their night actions would be switched, when he clearly meant that any night actions targeted against them would be switched. I had to ask for clarification. For this reason I find it likely that he is just confused about how a bus driver works.

[Desperado]

WIFOM herpaderp
There's no way you're Town

It isn't WIFOM when it's clear as fucking day that, if I rolled scum redirector like Psyche thinks, I screwed myself

for no reason whatsoever

.

I took the time to ask you if your report said I only visited you, and upon hearing this, I proceeded to...lie in such a way as to directly contradict something that I just asked you to clarify?

Come on. Someone start using their brain, please.

[Desperado]

I just told you that his role PM for me, as originally written, is wrong.

You'll see once I flip town and he shows my role PM at the end of the game.

[Desperado]

I could see the Monkey being wrong deal, but, honestly, I want to see a lynch between TIP or Desperado. Either TIP is absolutely full of it and is scum trying to frame people, or Desperado is scum trying to make himself appear more town.

Regardless, Monkey can't clarify in-thread so this all amounts to an insane amount of WIFOM based off of two PR claims no one can confirm.

Can we do some actual scum-hunting?
Also, Desperado, you're at L-2. Why go down this WIFOM hole so deep?

Because I'm getting lynched for basically nothing, and the argument that I'm scum depends on me being

a fucking moron

.

And I'm not a fucking moron.

[Desperado]

We have to be able to advance with our faith in the mod's credibility. If it turns out that what's going on is a mod-driven mistake, we'll have to complain with it in the endgame.

But right now we don't decide that the game's mechanics must not be executing regularly.

I really can't argue with this

Vote: TheIrishPope

[Desperado]

Desperado, 1066 is a pretty hard ATE and 1067 seems like an OMGUS/squirmvote given that I just set you up as believable antagonists with my post, giving you at least the subconscious idea I might put my vote on him instead.

So, please, dig yourself a deeper hole. You respond really poorly under pressure, scum.

Are you high?

How is it OMGUS when FMPOV

TIP is lying

?

Please misrep harder.

[Desperado]

Desperado, 1066 is a pretty hard ATE and 1067 seems like an OMGUS/squirmvote given that I just set you up as believable antagonists with my post, giving you at least the subconscious idea I might put my vote on him instead.

So, please, dig yourself a deeper hole. You respond really poorly under pressure, scum.

And I respond really poorly when the "pressure" is literally a PR lying about his results and people thinking I, as the scum redirector, specifically asked if he only saw me visit one person (which, in this hypothetical, is the proper amount), and then claimed that I actually visited two players.

Like I said, I don't care if it's WIFOM--that's the stupidest fucking shit I've ever heard and I will simply not have it.

I prefer to believe that Monkey simply misunderstands the role (which I have evidence for, given the mistake in my role PM).

I am being forced to assume, however, that TIP is just lying, because I know I visited both him and boxxy because Monkey told me my action was successful.

There is no case against me. Just this.

So please tell me more about how I react poorly under "pressure." Because FMPOV, this is me reacting poorly to some fabricated bullshit.

[Desperado]

As far as I can tell there is no commonly accepted way the role is done, which is why it's entirely possible that what SEEMS like it should be obvious may not be.

The fact that Monkey made a critical mistake in my role PM that I had to clarify points to this even further.

[Desperado]

Varsoon you are giving me whiplash.

TIP's first post was a giant neon sign that said "DESPERADO VISITED SOMEONE."

Obviously I knew that I had visited him. I gave him several opportunities to not pursue it. He persisted anyway.

At this point, could you envision any scenario during this day that didn't include me full claiming?

Me neither. So why wait?

And you're goddamn right I AtE'd and OMGUS'd all over the place. Because what TIP is claiming is fabricated bullshit. How can I approach something inherently illogical logically?

[Desperado]

I brought the mod into the setup?
Wasn't Desperado the one who whined about a fucking role PM error?

I haven't whined about anything. How are you already misrepping something that happened two hours ago?

The existence of the error merely supports my theory that Monkey just doesn't fully understand the role he included in his game. Which is OK.

[Desperado]

Guys, I'm just gonna come out and say it. I thought my role targeted two people too. Turns out it doesn't. Monkey's ideas of double targeting roles are kinda fucked up. This follows what I would expect it to follow if des was what he says he is. This guy is town. Now can we all join together and lynch varsoon please?

Hey look TIP, more evidence that I was right!

Varsoon what the fuck is up man? You were beyond ready to lynch me. Like, "flail harder, scum" ready to lynch me.

[Desperado]

Varsoon is fine atm but thanks TD.

Varsoon is not fine.

Spoiler: This series of posts is not fucking fine

I don't like the claim by Desperado. Why? It uses info that isn't solely exclusive to him.
Anyone could claim bus-driver swapping the targets of Skull/Wolf after I talked so much about the redirect yesterday.
Also, I think it's actually a good lynch for today. Why?
Flavor-wise, he's bus-driver, which is a slimy girl in the canon of Calvin and Hobbes. Slimy girls are a confirmed scum group.
Also, I already suspect that my actions were redirected to Radiowolf as a setup to lynch me, and it follows that a BusDriver scum on a 2-person team (at N1) could have skull's targets hit Radiowolf, and then have the night kill delivered by the other team-mate.
Finally, I am uncomfortable with how quickly he's pushed my wagon despite being largely on my side on D1. It's like he saw me as an easier lynch target and went for it.

Vote: Desperado

Also, I'm confirming this, I did Neighbor Psyche. It actually worked this time, too.

Also-also, why the fuck would he bring up his PR so quickly if he was town?
ESPECIALLY with a PR of that power?
You didn't have to say what it is, either.

Shit, really? Because when I made my case on Zoidberg on D1, he was all about it.

Ach, my memory really does blow. Regardless, I guess I just don't like him for all the other reasons above.

I could see the Monkey being wrong deal, but, honestly, I want to see a lynch between TIP or Desperado. Either TIP is absolutely full of it and is scum trying to frame people, or Desperado is scum trying to make himself appear more town.

Regardless, Monkey can't clarify in-thread so this all amounts to an insane amount of WIFOM based off of two PR claims no one can confirm.

Can we do some actual scum-hunting?
Also, Desperado, you're at L-2. Why go down this WIFOM hole so deep?

Desperado, 1066 is a pretty hard ATE and 1067 seems like an OMGUS/squirmvote given that I just set you up as believable antagonists with my post, giving you at least the subconscious idea I might put my vote on him instead.

So, please, dig yourself a deeper hole. You respond really poorly under pressure, scum.

Fair enough, Psyche.

I don't believe in rushing things, either. I just think Desperado, especially with his claim, deserves some pressure.

I'll keep my vote there.

There's no way I know if he's lying or not, it's literally something I cannot confirm.


From where I am, I see you claiming a PR despite having no pressure to do so, claiming town alongside that PR, then going on to put a vote against the person who's behind there being lots of votes on you.
Also, AtE's and OMGUS's.

Still, I'm hesitant, given the refutation that all of that isn't necessarily scum.
I don't see any reason for you to be lying in 1079, though, especially given how genuine it reads.

I'd rather a longer day, where more people are pressured and info is garnered.

Vote: TIP

I'd like to know why he said he only had one target on his trace, too, if Desperado is telling the truth.
I'd also like to know why he's so lynch-happy and has been using his trace by-and-large to push lynches.


TIP, we're not doing another quicklynch, especially given how short today is.
I know you'd like it to be night so you can get to your quick-thread and NK faster, but town actually wants to lynch scum.
Scum like you.

[Desperado]

Desperado, do you think Rubicon is telling the truth about being a PGO?

I don't have any reason not to believe him at this point.

Do you?

[Desperado]

@Desperado: That's called effective pressure. You sincerely believed I intended to see your lynch go through, but Psyche can confirm that (via out QT) I simply thought you were possible scum and wanted to see you under heavy pressure before I made the verdict. Your responses, by and large, have convinced me that you're town.

You were definitely successful.

What about my response convinced you I was town and how is TIP's handling of the situation more incriminating?

[Desperado]

So, as far as the PR and tracking goes, it generates too much role-based WIFOM and ends in a policy lynch most the time.
I don't like that.
So build a case against Desperado out of tangible evidence, please.

Given his response I don't think we are likely to see that case any time soon

[Desperado]

WIFOM herpaderp
There's no way you're Town

I told you that Zoidberg was not scum and now you owe me one
The only evidence I have against him is my role, so yeah
Also, I'm too stupid to pull this off as scum; have you seen my scum meta?

[Desperado]

Never had someone meta me before. Which scum games did you look at?

Don't you think it's just as likely that TIP is just a newb who doesn't fully understand how to use his PR effectively? Tiphaine has already confirmed that Monkey's definition of a multi-visiting role is unusual...my read of this situation is that Monkey counter-intuitively interprets my role as only visiting the first player I target, and that for a role to visit twice they have to perform two distinct actions--like a scum roleblocker also performing a kill.

There really is no way for TIP to know that I visited him unless he's telling the truth, which limits this to two scenarios...he's either a town tracker or a mafia tracker. I'm inclined to say it's the former.

Unvote

[Desperado]

But I'm a confirmed Town Tracker

Playing the newbie card? Really? Fuck no

You aren't confirmed.

And your behavior in this game is extremely newbish. Sorry if that offends you.

[Desperado]

If you're interested in complete scum games, you can check out Newbie 1338, Mini 1426, and Micro 168.

TIP, please self-evaluate your play. You think you're confirmed, you think your track by itself means something, and you're uninterested in even entertaining an alternative explanation for what's going on here.

How are you not playing like a newb right now?

[Desperado]

Then why haven't you been trying to redirect the night kills to him? He can shoot Scum that way.

"Because I didn't think to do that" is not an acceptable answer, by the way.

How would I switch him without visiting him?

[Desperado]

I'm not playing stupid with you, I'm trying to explain why what you did was stupid and needless...if you're still alive after I visited you, and a mafia roleblocker already flipped, and you already claimed your role (rendering a rolecop useless)...then I'm probably a town PR and you should keep your mouth shut or make something up.

Instead you just said "Where is Desperado...explain yourself!"

Which I will now, in full.

I'm

Calvin's Sled, the town bus driver

.

Last night I switched you with boxxy.

Night one I switched Skullduggery with Radioactive (whoops).

I kinda still want to lynch Varsoon for his atrocious claim, and if he can't confirm someone else as his neighbor I can't envision a scenario where he's town.

If this is true than scum targeted Skull?

Desperado

claim all of your actions the previous nights

and explain the rationale for them

Did he ever respond to this?

If Desperado is Town I will See Skullduggery lynched or die myself.

That is all.

If Desperado is Town wouldn't prove that Skull is Town. If Desperado is the Bus Driver than scum tried to kill Skull but the kill went to Radio instead. No? Or am I missing something?

What I meant to say: If Desperado is town wouldn't that indicate the Skull is most likely town as scum took a shot at Skull and when the switched the kill took out Radio instead.

The answer to all of these questions/scenarios is yes.

[Desperado]

VOTE: Desperado


i will ignore the retarded votes on me

Why are the votes on you retarded?

[Desperado]

Guys.

Metal sonic is playing stupid to get us off of his back.

It's pretty transparent, especially in 1187. :/

I'm seeing the same thing you're seeing

[Desperado]

Metal Sonic smells like an easy mislynch to me. Something about it doesn't feel right.

Penguin_Alien's activity so far is eerily reminiscent of her play in WWE Mafia (where she was Scum). What do you think, Desperado? It's not just me, is it?

With only 9 posts it's hard to say. Although PA's lack of presence is problematic in itself.

[Desperado]

Skull I'm not following. My understanding of a Ninja is that they are not seeing targeting anyone, not that someone targeting the Ninja will appear to have not visited them.

[Desperado]

I know what you're saying, and I'm saying that I don't think that's how it works. TIP didn't track boxxy, he tracked me.

[Desperado]

I fear that it won't, skull. My guess is that Monkey does not consider me a multi-visiting role because I don't commit two separate actions, so on a track or watch they will receive only the first name that I visit.

[Desperado]

I don't see how that makes sense, though. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume that when you submit your night action, you say something to the effect of "I'd like to switch Player X and Player Y tonight." You're performing an action on two players simultaneously, so there shouldn't be a "first" or "second" name. Is that not how your role works?

I only see three possibilities here: either you're lying (unlikely), Pope is lying (possible, but also unlikely), or there's something weird going on with Boxxy. Which of these three possibilities do you think is the most likely?

You are correct about my role.

If those are my only three options then something weird is going on with boxxy, but I honestly think it's d) bus drivers are confusing and the way that we think they should work is not how they are working in the context of this game.

[Desperado]

I fear that it won't, skull. My guess is that Monkey does not consider me a multi-visiting role because I don't commit two separate actions, so on a track or watch they will receive only the first name that I visit.

Huh? Say again?

I know I'm not lying.

I seriously doubt TIP is scum and just guessed that a) I'm a PR, and b) that I visited him.

The simplest solution is that our interpretation of what would appear on a tracker's report after visiting me is incorrect. Tiphaine mentioned that Monkey's idea of double targeting roles is "kinda fucked up" because he also thought he targeted two people when in reality, he doesn't.

[Desperado]

How would he know? And how is he believable?

He claims to have a role that also intuitively visits two people but, in practice, does not.

And frankly he's believable because his information explains the inconsistencies perfectly and that is not information I would expect scum to divulge.

[Desperado]

Yes, but HOW would he know that in practice his role doesn't do that?

He asked the mod what would happen if someone tracked him after you claimed?

[Desperado]

Yes, if Tiphaine has a role that he thinks visits two people, he's more than welcome to ask "If a tracker hypothetically tracked me, would I appear to be visiting both people or just one?"

It's no different from what you asked so I'm not sure why you're pretending like it's weird?

Unless you're lying about asking Monkey about your role.

[Desperado]

But it's not about you or the tracker. Tiphaine is free to ask the mod any question that he wants as long as it relates to his role. How was he searching for immunity?

And you had already by the time he revealed his information.

[Desperado]

It just seems odd that you of all people would think he questioned the mod on that subject, but oh well...

...

huh?

[Desperado]

I was confused about why its odd that "me of all people would think he questioned the mod."

[Desperado]

I'm getting flashbacks to WWE day one.

[Desperado]

Nah we have TIP for that

[Desperado]

I am an inanimate object, Calvin's Sled.

[Desperado]

I am an inanimate object, Calvin's Sled.

[Desperado]

No?

I'm not playing stupid with you, I'm trying to explain why what you did was stupid and needless...if you're still alive after I visited you, and a mafia roleblocker already flipped, and you already claimed your role (rendering a rolecop useless)...then I'm probably a town PR and you should keep your mouth shut or make something up.

Instead you just said "Where is Desperado...explain yourself!"

Which I will now, in full.

I'm

Calvin's Sled, the town bus driver

.

Last night I switched you with boxxy.

Night one I switched Skullduggery with Radioactive (whoops).

I kinda still want to lynch Varsoon for his atrocious claim, and if he can't confirm someone else as his neighbor I can't envision a scenario where he's town.

[Desperado]

Vote: Boxxy

[Desperado]

So... TIP has confirmed scum.

No.

[Desperado]

Varsoon, obviously me and Desperado are opposite alignments

It isn't obvious.

[Desperado]

Essentially, TIP, I want you to do the work of a good cop. You, yourself, have info that incriminates a player. However, that info isn't enough to push the case. You need to ISO that player and put the lens on them and find scummy things that others likely overlooked.

@MS: Exactly. Scum's always hungry for mislynches based on things like that.

He doesn't even have info that incriminates me.

[Desperado]

TIP, Dante, Psyche, Rubicon: Let's get those votes changed to boxxy.

[Desperado]

oh wait uh shit

then why would Desperado claim Bus Driver, when supreme Tracker TiP is out to get him?


no scum motivation

Yeah we went over this when it happened. TIP's almost singlehandedly taken me out of this game.

Now vote boxxy

[Desperado]

Supreme Tracker TIP. I like it.
In any fucking case, I'm tracking Desperado every night from now on.

...

[Desperado]

oh wait uh shit

then why would Desperado claim Bus Driver, when supreme Tracker TiP is out to get him?


no scum motivation

Yeah we went over this when it happened. TIP's almost singlehandedly taken me out of this game.

Now vote boxxy

[Desperado]

VOTE: boxxy
Fuck you all when Desp wins as scum

In all seriousness, the notion that I would have behaved as I have had I rolled scum hurts my feelings. I don't need to pull wacky, no-win-proposition gambits for shits and giggles when I roll scum.

So please just shove your dumb agenda away somewhere and start fresh tomorrow after we lynch boxxy scum

[Desperado]

I can't believe you fucking let Varsoon off the hook. Do I really need to quote all of my posts pointing out how scummy he was?

[Desperado]

I also made sure only to claim miller after I felt that cops were out of the picture, because it gave credence to my claim and was safe in case other people were doctors. Since we had the Lie Detector on our team, I don't think anyone would be able to LD me on it.

No it didn't lol

I sniffed you out all game but no one bothered to read my ISO over, or if they did they were too blinded to care.