Xenogears Mafia (Game Over)

zMuffinMan · Post Post #13 (isolation #0) » Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:02 am

99% sure Nachopappa is scum.

Vote: Nachopappa

zMuffinMan · Post Post #41 (isolation #1) » Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:36 am

@TD,

PGO claiming isn't bad. But like millers, they die before lylo.

What's stopping you from voting Venmar?

zMuffinMan · Post Post #43 (isolation #2) » Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:49 am

Vote: TiphaineDeath

zMuffinMan · Post Post #98 (isolation #3) » Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:43 am

tiphaine wrote:I want zmuffin to answer this, not ven, what's scummy about my post?

If by "scummy", you mean "something that scum does", then I think your post is scummy because it came from you.

This should be fairly straight-forward.

If you're asking how I know you're scum from this, then it comes down to two reasons. The first is that I see no town reason to vent your frustration here, especially since his play as a PGO is valid and makes sense, and I see every reason why you as scum would think that making a big deal out of it would possibly make you seem more town because you didn't consider that it was a good move for a town PGO to make. The second is my personal belief that the way in which you said what you said was awful and fake.

Also, since that post, I don't believe you have no better place to put your vote than where it currently is for RVS reasons... You could have even voted me, and at least pretended to apply some pressure to me, but you didn't. So yep, you're scum and you need to die. This part is no longer valid as of #93, but you're still scum.

More votes on TD please. TY.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #505 (isolation #4) » Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:45 pm

People I'm not lynching today: venmar, notscience, mac, sound of silence
People maybe town but not completely sure: beautyandthebeast, ghostlin, nickthename, trustfund

If mastin is town, this is the first game i've seen him read me incorrectly from my initial posting. but I don't really think he's town atm so that doesn't particularly matter to me.
BRO is probably scum, there was a wall somewhere on like p8 that made me think this. The next post about scum on the TD wagon and no effort to do anything about it pretty much solidified this.

The speed with which the TD wagon built up is

not

a sign that he's town, or even likely town. It's null at best, and I'm sure as fuck not going to discount his play just because his wagon built up quickly. Off the top of my head, Ghostlin should remember the shit position town got put in when the whole town thought this exact same thing on D1 of Cyclic x02 - it made for a very easy scum win. The point being; judge his play, and the play of the people voting him, not the fucking speed of the wagon.

I think someone asked me a question some pages back about why I voted TD before he answered my question. The answer is, "why the fuck not?" It was a better place to put my vote than where it currently was for RVS reasons, and I pretty much told you why I voted TD in my next post anyway, so this kind of seems like a dumb question.

I'm skimming a lot of these posts, so if I missed any questions, meh. I might go back and read this thread closely when I have time and see what else I can find in the first 20 pages, but these are my basic thoughts on the game so far.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #507 (isolation #5) » Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:16 pm

I agree. AtE isn't a reason to lynch someone over. But I think the way in which he handled the votes was bad, and I think if he were town, he'd at least try to show that he's town rather than whine and AtE.

I also still hold that his initial post about the PGO looked really, really fake, for reasons that have been listed by several posters.

Point me to posts that gave you scum reads on nickthename, rachmarie and nhammen.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #508 (isolation #6) » Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:29 pm

I would also like to note that BRO still isn't voting anyone, and after his claim about scum on the TD wagon, I at least think he would try get some momentum going on a scum read of his if he were actually town.

If the TD wagon dies, I'll move to BRO.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #511 (isolation #7) » Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:39 pm

@Aj,

I thought the WTF is this shit post looked more town than scum. "Strong reasoning" isn't necessarily a town trait. I thought his reaction was more natural, thus more likely town. The Venmar vote I didn't really care about. If anything though, I think the reasoning he gave for the Venmar vote looked more town than TD's initial reaction to it.

I skimmed over all the rest of his posts, so I can't really comment on the rest of it (thus, asking to be pointed to specific posts). If a nick wagon actually builds up, I'll review his ISO, but for now I don't care about him.

@thezmon,

I'll look over rachmarie in a bit, she's one of the posters I've skimmed over and not really paid attention to.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #512 (isolation #8) » Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:47 pm

OK, yeah, RachMarie is scum, too.

#66 was pretty much all IIoA and then ended with "time for content" which was kind of ironic.

Rest of her posts are not any better.

Literally zero content, no votes so far, no reads (as far as I can tell).

If a RachMarie wagon starts I'll sheep that.

I'll read FTL soon and tell you what I think of that wagon because I don't remember thinking anything about his alignment from what I've read.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #520 (isolation #9) » Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:19 pm

@AJ,

Spoiler:

aj wrote:I never quite understood the TD wagon.

While I can't speak for others, I'll explain my line of reasoning here.

The reaction to the PGO claim felt fake. Talked about this a lot already, and I can maybe see how it's possible he would make the same post as town, but I still feel it's more likely to come from scum than town.

The flippant posting around p4 and p5 was just plain horrible. I considered two possibilities here: he's town and just playing really, really badly, or he's scum who thinks playing like this will make it seem like he doesn't care about the votes (and that perhaps this will make people think he's town). Again, I can see the possibility that he is town, but I think it's far more likely to come from him as scum.

Since then, while I've seen some posts that gave me slightly townish vibes, I've seen nothing that really makes me think town.

I want to see his reads on the game so far, and explanations for them, and then I'll decide from there whether I think the TD wagon is still good or not. His attack on mac for a "slip" is terrible and he should feel bad regardless of his alignment. I can maybe understand him not reading mac as town, but I don't see the scum read making much sense. (Yes, I'm aware that I have a town read on nick and he's also voting mac but I don't have an issue with nick's mac case, it doesn't strike me as a fake scum case, I just think he's wrong.)

aj wrote:This isn't TD's scum game

I don't care much for meta, but what about his play so far resembles his town game?

If nothing, then we can assume his play so far neither resembles his town or scum game, and therefore conclude that this means nothing.

aj wrote:I do believe B&B were right with the idea to analyze that wagon

That's an absolutely horrible idea prior to a flip, and if I see anyone doing it I'll basically ignore their opinion on anything for the entire game.

Unless by "analysing the wagon", you simply mean analysing who was saying what about the wagon, both on and off it, and determining which is more likely to come from scum than town. In which case, go ahead, but don't do it on the assumption of TD's alignment. And if this is the case, I'd like to point you towards BRO and RachMarie.

aj wrote:Varsoons post to Nhm was awful

I'll go back and read FTL in a bit, but tell me why you think it was awful and why this makes him scum?

---

ghost wrote:Mastin's being passive, but he's being Town passive.

I don't agree with this. I don't think his approach to the game so far is at all an indication of his alignment (I can see him doing the same thing as scum or town), and I'm not all that impressed with the apathetic attitude he seems (or is pretending) to have adopted.

The only thing that's making me think mastin could be town is I don't think mastin-scum would seriously think attacking me is a good choice to start the game with. If he's scum, either he's forgotten how obvious I make it when I'm town, or he's doing some reverse-reverse-reverse psychology bullshit because he knows that i know that he knows that i know etc etc...

zMuffinMan · Post Post #521 (isolation #10) » Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:20 pm

While I have issues with some of FTL's posts (#53, #55, #99, #144), I don't see anything else that really points to scum right now, and my issues with these posts have been partially explained in later posts by him. If you think the inadequacy of his explanations makes him obvscum, that's fine, but I don't see it and I'd like to see the reasons people think this.

I don't see anything that stands out as town either, but I think the arguments for him being scum are meh.

I have trouble reading this type of player.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #523 (isolation #11) » Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:09 pm

Why do you think TD is town?
If you think TD is town, why are you still voting for him?

zMuffinMan · Post Post #525 (isolation #12) » Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:18 pm

zMuffinMan · Post Post #528 (isolation #13) » Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:26 pm

ftl wrote:so what?

So why is that stopping you from unvoting him and voting any of your scum reads?

And why do you think TD is town?

Also didn't Nacho get replaced?

zMuffinMan · Post Post #529 (isolation #14) » Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:26 pm

Oh, other Nacho got replaced. I see.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #535 (isolation #15) » Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:57 am

@nick,

Who do you think is scum apart from mac? I've read your points on mac, they're thoroughly unconvincing. Do you have any other scum reads?

@ftl

OK, I really don't give two shits if you write an essay or not. You had TD as a scum read, you now have him as a town read, this needs explanation. I want to understand the progression of your read on him.

Try not to answer with something like, "only Varsoon thought he was scum!" because that's a cop-out answer. You're a hydra, stop posting your reads if you can't even agree on the person you're voting. Hydra dissonance is fucking annoying.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #540 (isolation #16) » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:12 am

ftl wrote:why are you so concerned over where my slot parks its vote?

... ... ... ... ... Because where you have your vote is _usually_ an indication of who your top scum read is, or at least the scum read that you think has the most support to be lynched.

At the moment, it's on a town read of yours, and seeing as I'm still trying to figure out whether you're town or scum, it should be rather obvious why I'm questioning you about this.

Lucky for me, I've decided I don't think you're scum right now, so I can ignore all your posts from now on and save myself a headache.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #543 (isolation #17) » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:18 am

Godly One wrote:BRO is probably scum, there was a wall somewhere on like p8 that made me think this. The next post about scum on the TD wagon and no effort to do anything about it pretty much solidified this.

Godly One wrote:I would also like to note that BRO still isn't voting anyone, and after his claim about scum on the TD wagon, I at least think he would try get some momentum going on a scum read of his if he were actually town.

If the TD wagon dies, I'll move to BRO.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #545 (isolation #18) » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:39 am

I have already explained my thoughts on TD in #520 (click the spoiler)

zMuffinMan · Post Post #552 (isolation #19) » Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:18 am

You can if you want.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #573 (isolation #20) » Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:04 am

Vote: RachMarie

I have decided that this needs to die.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #574 (isolation #21) » Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:07 am

Also Mac is town, and FTL is likely town, too.

When I feel like it, I may wall you into oblivion to show my thoughts on why both of them are likely town, but the time for that is not now.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #579 (isolation #22) » Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:31 am

Mac isn't a controversial read. Only you and TD are reading her as scum, and you're both wrong about it. If I need to go over why, I will later. Currently in the process of doing something else at the moment that requires much more of my attention.

As for FTL, the back-and-forth with the MS head is what gave me the town read, and again if I need to go into more detail, later.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #603 (isolation #23) » Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:50 am

I have decided that all my reads are shit and I need to start over.

I'll give the reasoning behind my current reads on Mac and TFL before I do, but they may change when I properly read the game.

I've gone really, really wrong somewhere. I have the entire early TD wagon as town (or likely town). Even if TD is scum, this doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

I need to reevaluate things.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #879 (isolation #24) » Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:07 am

The spoilered contains a wall of responses, comments and questions to different people (TD, nick, BRO, desperado, malakittens). The rest of the game is free to ignore it if they want.

Spoiler: wall of bullshit

Special spoiler wall for mastin:

Spoiler: 8==D

mastin wrote:I'm a bit concerned about [Muffin's] stances, such as nicktown, Rachscum, maScum2, TD as scum

What specifically concerns you about these reads?

Also can you put all your current reads together in one post (just the reads, don't give a shit about the explanations for now).

As for the RM-town stuff, no. Just no.

Here are my basic thoughts on RM:

RM wrote:Besides his reaction to Venmar's claim is there even a case on TD? Something other than oh he was scum last time please.

RM wrote:Could you explain your case on him, besides the whole thing with Venmar?

RM wrote:I gather from that that Notty is basically an Innocent Child mod verified?

RM wrote:Could someone let me know who the heads of the hydrae are?

A bunch of quotes from RM with questions that should have been self-apparent to anyone even skimming the game. I added some that you left out to further illustrate the point. All of these are pointless questions that she should either already know the answer to, or should be able to find out with 30 seconds of reading. What this actually looks like to me is RM-scum thinking, "If I ask these questions, maybe I'll look like I'm town who is curious!" or something along those lines.

RM wrote:peeps with votes on Venmar need to like remove them for a bit, the claim will sort itself out soon enough.

This is nothing but fence-sitting. It doesn't suggest anything about her thoughts on Venmar, just that the PGO claim isn't necessarily scummy. She isn't accountable for anything here, so regardless of whatever you think it implies, it doesn't actually mean anything. You can't look back at this and go, "oh, but she thought he was town here!" if she later calls him scum. Also this is

exactly

what I imagine RM-scum would say about this - it is the most simple and basic example of fence-sitting and pretending to be busy.

RM wrote:Want to take a look at the interplay tween B n B and SoS
I do realize of course that the Mollie head and the fery head are long time friends from another site, but want to be sure it is not being used as a cover for buddying.

This is nothing more than a throwaway comment. I would agree that it could be perceived as town

if she actually followed it up with anything

but she never does. What this actually looks like to me is RM-scum just throwing this out there to look like she's being busy when she's actually not doing anything productive at all. You'd have a case for calling her town if she did anything with this, but the far more likely scenario here is RM-scum throwing this out and doing nothing with it (I am aware that you think she did something with this, but I'll get to that in a bit). Do you imagine RM-scum would have said it differently or just not commented on it or something?

RM wrote:Cause though I can see how that would look scummy, the fact we have a wagon build up this fast this early before everyone has even posted kinda sets up my scumdar a tad.

RM wrote:Whether TD is scum or town I am not sure on, but I am leaning town cause that wagon hell Nacho has not even posted yet..... And a few others as well. 8 of 11 votes? Cmon guys n gals we need to examine those on his wagon duh.

These are just throwaway comments. They mean nothing. You can't hold her to a read here or ask her to explain anything, because there

is no read

. There's no accountability in this statement. She's not saying she thinks TD is town and the wagon is bad, or she thinks TD is scum but the wagon has her doubting this, she's just saying the wagon was quick, and it should be examined. And again, this is another throwaway comment because she never actually

does anything

with this... It's another useless statement and far more likely to come from RM-scum than RM-town.

RM wrote:No need to get worried Mollie just I am not 100% sold that both your slot and hers are town. Given time will be better at sorting it out. And part of that would be finding out if its just hey we know each other or that you are playing buddy buddy knowing peeps would think it too blatant to be buddying. As Jiffy and Syr post that will help too.

This is not a followup of her earlier statement about looking into the interplay between SoS and BnB. This is nothing. Literally nothing. It doesn't show she's done anything more to look into it than she did way back when she first said she'd look into it, and there's absolutely nothing here that she can be held accountable for as a read.

And here's the thing mastin, I could deconstruct her entire ISO and show that not only the above stuff points to her being likely scum, but that she has quite literally done no scum hunting, given no reads that she can be held accountable for, has not voted anyone yet, and has basically coasted through the game mostly unnoticed or ignored for reasons I'm not quite able to comprehend at this point in time.

You say she's trying to figure things out? No. Mac is an example of someone trying to figure things out. He's been asking game-relevant questions, giving his positions on players, etc. Compare this to RM and you'd be lying if you actually said she's been trying to figure anything out in this game.

The fact you think all this makes her town and that there's nothing scummy about all this is intriguing.

Current reads:

Town: Venmar, FTL, nick, mac, SoS, BnB
Maybe town: Aj, nacho, desperado
Maybe scum: TD, andrius
Scum: RM, BRO
Good vig shot: notscience (please)

Haven't sorted my thoughts on the rest yet. May look through ISOs later if I can be bothered. If not, tomorrow.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #881 (isolation #25) » Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:15 am

I will be glad to look at any cases on my town reads tomorrow and give my opinions on why they're all shit.

In the mean time, it should be rather obvious that I'd prefer they not be lynched.

RM or BRO lynches are infinitely better atm.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #882 (isolation #26) » Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:16 am

I might make some cases when I can be bothered.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #885 (isolation #27) » Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:21 am

Scum killing notscience would be playing against their wincon. Read his ISO.

ftl wrote:why are you reading Rach as scum?

Click the mastin wall.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #889 (isolation #28) » Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:27 am

You assume lylo is 2:1.

Lylo with you still alive is likely 7:6 or 6:5.

Scum know this. They won't kill you.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #892 (isolation #29) » Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:33 am

notscience wrote:Not really.

Say you're town. We're both in 6v5 Lylo. You now know 2 of the 6 town. Therefore it's 5v4 , or a 5/9 chance to vote scum.

Which is over 50%.

And 5/9*4/7*3/5*2/4*1/3 is not good odds to get to a 2:1 lylo at which point we'd be left with you to make a decision, meaning 0% overall chance of town win.

Scum know this, they want to keep you alive.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #893 (isolation #30) » Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:34 am

er I scrwed up the maths at the end but point still stands

zMuffinMan · Post Post #959 (isolation #31) » Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:04 am

Sad thing is I actually believe you're town, mastin. It's just your reads are horrible.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #962 (isolation #32) » Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:15 am

Someone link me to posts explaining the scum reads on FTL and nick, please.

I feel I haven't bashed my head against a desk enough already and want something that will motivate me to do it a bit more.

Also mala, questions and shit for you in #879. Please read + reply ty.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1137 (isolation #33) » Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:33 pm

@MALA,

Spoiler:

malakittens wrote:I also find it odd how many people didn't comment on my interaction with Ghostlin besides Mac

I am reading everything, but I've lost interest in commenting on most of the stuff happening - I feel like my opinion's being drowned in a sea of dumbshitness so I don't see a need. It's factoring into my reads, though. And if it's something I feel I need to bring attention to, then I'll do it. I'm also betting that anyone who I'm not responding to is currently skipping over my walls, which is why I'm choosing only to respond to about 5 people. I'm actually considering just lurking through the game until the herd thins, because there's so much dumb shit going on and so few people properly analysing it.

mala wrote:It's like [FTL's] trying to not look scummy and is avoiding in the future being called out for lurking.

I can understand why you might think that, maybe, sorta, but I was null on that. Considering there were already a couple people calling him scummy at the time, it doesn't really surprise me one way or another that he said something like that. It was bad, and he could be scum saying it, but I can also imagine him saying the same thing as town, so I don't really have an issue with it.

mala wrote:Also this is just lazy excuse to have a vote on someone. If I disagree with a read my partner has I'll fight it as much as possible on skype etc. At least I'll attempt to change my hydra's partner's mind. It's like I'm reading him as town, but I'm too lazy to really scum hunt and place a vote.

This is what I initially thought when I started questioning him about it, but during the exchange with him, I actually felt he came off as rather townish. For example, I imagine them as town here because it seems MS genuinely wanted to find out why his other head had a scum read on TD when he was reading TD as town, and I think the openness in him giving his own reads when he questioned me about my scum reads showed town intention. Also it became rather apparent (during the exchange and in FTL's later posts) that they have been trying to get in contact with each other to discuss their reads.

I actually do not see how anyone who really analyses the exchange between MS and I on that page can come off thinking he's more likely scum than town. :/

@MASTIN,

Spoiler:

@DESPERADO,

Spoiler:

thezmon et al wrote:By the way. 5 scum slipping. Mastin, are you sure you didn't receive a scum role PM?

Stuff like this is bad. mastin isn't

this

dumb. It's extremely likely he legitimately thought the host said there were 5 scum in this game - whether that actually happened is another case altogether, and I seriously doubt it has anything to do with his alignment, regardless of whether he's actually town or scum here.

---

andrius wrote:Uh, care to explain? I didn't see my name in your post except here so I'm a bit confused.

Gut. I don't have any substantial reason here, so you're a maybe. I didn't like the overreactions in your first wall and I'm not following some of the conclusions you came to in your reads. If I had any strong reason for thinking you were scum right now, you'd be more than maybe-scum, but I don't.

Although I will say the wall this quote is from came off as a bit more townish. It'd help if you explained the SoS/BnB scum reads though, and why you're maybescum on FTL and nick.

---

Also pretty sure #1123 was a scum post. Those questions are really, really bad.

Haven't read p46 yet.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1144 (isolation #34) » Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:01 pm

Ghostlin wrote:That's...not a town stance.
That's not even a sensible one.
Yeah, TF goes on the list.

Basically my thoughts on TF summarised in three sentences.

The bolded are my thoughts on the entire game summarised in one sentence.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1145 (isolation #35) » Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:03 pm

BRO wrote:Wagon speed is alignment indicative because scum are more likely to push a wagon on town than on scum relative to the likeliness of town pushing one on scum. Unless you have bus-heavy scum, but then you can look for the busser.

I have about ten reasons this is really, really horrible, but I think it's a waste of time to discuss theory here.

What I do want to say is that wagon analysis is

at most

circumstantial (as you seem to acknowledge in the last sentence here), and should never be talked about prior to flips, and certainly not as a reason for thinking someone is likely town.

But you seem to think differently, so when are we going to get your analysis and reads based on the speed of the TD wagon? You've mentioned in passing a couple people you think were likely scum on the wagon, but haven't elaborated on any of this yet (unless I missed it).

BRO wrote:Thing that triggered you as scummy was that you jumped on the TD wagon that was bad.

And what made you think I was scum because of this? Am I town now or just less scummy than you initially thought?

BRO wrote:The Mac scumread came mostly from the tone that he had towards the end of his TD questioning: it sounded less like he was trying to discern TD’s alignment and more like he was trying to bully TD into a position to get lynched. Mac’s recent posts have been more townie, though.

So is mac scum, town or null now?

When you finish catching up can you give a list of all your reads (preferably sorted into town, scum and null)? Don't care if there are explanations here, just want something to reference so I know your thoughts on the game.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1151 (isolation #36) » Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:11 pm

I've been saying that about BRO for the entire game. Why are people just realising this now?

Look at the first wall post from him in the game. It's the same stuff.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1178 (isolation #37) » Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:53 am

are there any serious mastin votes?

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1182 (isolation #38) » Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:57 am

There are none, I'm checking ISOs now. Thus #1178.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1184 (isolation #39) » Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:04 am

In post 1137, zMuffinMan wrote:
thezmon et al wrote:By the way. 5 scum slipping. Mastin, are you sure you didn't receive a scum role PM?
Stuff like this is bad. mastin isn't
this
dumb. It's extremely likely he legitimately thought the host said there were 5 scum in this game - whether that actually happened is another case altogether, and I seriously doubt it has anything to do with his alignment, regardless of whether he's actually town or scum here.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1190 (isolation #40) » Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:11 am

The issue is some people going, "derp, him saying the mod said there were 5 scum = him admitting he's scum." Though how the former implies the latter hasn't actually been explained by anyone because it's nonsense and a way for people to pretend they're doing something when they're not really doing anything at all.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1193 (isolation #41) » Thu Aug 15, 2013 3:37 am

ftl wrote:obviously there are scum pushing this bullshit

who is the scum?

On the mastin wagon?

{Trust Fund, BROseidon, TiphaineDeath, Skullduggery}

I don't feel particularly good about any of these names, but I imagine only two of them are scum.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1206 (isolation #42) » Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:08 am

aj wrote:The team I have is Nick, skull, Mala, with an end of TF/Rach/Andrius.

So you think the entire scum team (outside of Rach?) has said they think mastin is scum?

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1222 (isolation #43) » Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:20 am

tf wrote:He's spent more time saying he's town than doing anything else.

Not really, but I agree he's been harping on about it a bit too much. Doesn't make him scum.

tf wrote:His analysis is entirely internal

And this makes him scum because...?

tf wrote:He scumslipped by calling 5 scum
No.

Also,

tf wrote:this dude sat round and jumped hard on Ghostlin's reasons to not like us and the mastin wagon, what're the words.... "opportunistic as fuck"

I didn't have particularly strong feelings about you either way before the mastin push. You were firmly in my null pile because, while you hadn't done anything that looked particularly scummy, you'd also done nothing that looked town either.

But yes, I agree with Ghostlin's points about you liking everyone who votes mastin.

If you want to call that "jumping hard" on you, or "opportunistic as fuck", frankly I don't give a shit. If you're town, your read on me is horrible, and if you're scum, I really hope you try to get me lynched. There's nothing I love more than having some dumb fuck come after me when I'm town.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1223 (isolation #44) » Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:20 am

Fucked up quote tags there but whatever

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1233 (isolation #45) » Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:34 am

.............................................

Yeah, I think I'm best off just ignoring you until it's time to lynch you.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1238 (isolation #46) » Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:38 am

@AJ,

This

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1262 (isolation #47) » Thu Aug 15, 2013 6:30 am

sos wrote:I disagree with him on some stuff

Which stuff?

bnb wrote:I almost want to engage him but he doesn't seem interested in anything I have to say

*shrug* You were one of my first town reads, I don't engage with my town reads as much as my other reads, unless I really feel a need to get them on the same page as me, or understand why they're not on the same page as me. You're free to ask me questions if you want, and I am reading all your posts, but I don't feel a need to engage with you.

bnb wrote:he is defending mastin but going after lynchbait rach

If she's lynchbait then why is it so fucking hard to get her lynched?

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1275 (isolation #48) » Thu Aug 15, 2013 6:42 am

@TD,

Even if I don't like TrustFund, that's not actually what happened and for someone who got all antsy about me apparently misrepresenting you, you're doing a fine job with your hypocrisy here.

@SoS,

If the RM wagon goes nowhere, I'll join you on the BRO wagon, but yeah, I don't see her as town right now. Is RM just null for you because zero content?

As for TD, I'm actually not sure what to think of him atm. I have him as maybe-scum because I'm having a lot of trouble reading any of his posts as town and I see some stuff that makes me think scum. People keep saying his posts look town but I don't see it at all.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1299 (isolation #49) » Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:30 am

desperado wrote:What did we actually learn about Rach's view of the game from this post? Nothing. "There are almost definitely scum on this bad wagon, we should look there!" is not content. "I'm not sold on both of you as town and you might be using your "hey we know each other" to blatantly buddy as scum" is not content, it's obfuscation.

QFT. This (and the rest of 1294) is a more concise version of the thoughts I posted back in 879 in my mastin response, which expands on a lot of the reasons I think the quotes mastin called town are actually scum quotes.

Don't see where the town reads are coming from.

Also, @Desperado, 1137 has some responses to you.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1331 (isolation #50) » Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:35 am

adding mastin to my ignore list

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1332 (isolation #51) » Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:42 am

venmar, mac, bnb, sos, ftl, nick

desperado, ghostlin, nacho, mastin

low

malakittens
aj
thezmon
trustfund
td
andrius
skullduggery
bro
RM

high

this is me compared to you btw mastin. so it's not that difference, but I literally think I'm going to break something that I don't want to break if I read any more of the bullshit in your walls, so I'm just going to ignore them from now. first line is town reads i'm very confident about, second line is reads i'm pretty sure but not as confident about.

it's not _that_ different to your list

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1334 (isolation #52) » Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:52 am

I've said it a fair few times already, but it began with the exchange I had with MS earlier in the game (like.. p26? or whenever) and then when I was rereading the game I just started reading most of their posts as town.

I've already discussed it in #879 (see response to nick in wall of bullshit) and 1137 (see response to Mala, where I talk more about my exchange with MS).

Since then, I've basically been townreading him every post so yeah.

Why do you think differently?

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1338 (isolation #53) » Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:03 am

@desperado,

I don't have any experience with either head, but the MS head is currently the biggest reason I think FTL is town, and I haven't seen anything particularly scummy from the varsoon head either after the early dumb shit with posts like #53. I can't (read: don't want to) compare his play in other games so that's not an issue for me.

@ns,

It's the list of players outside my town reads in order of how likely I think it is that they're scum. My vote is currently on RM for reference.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1341 (isolation #54) » Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:09 am

@ns,

RM I've been over a million times. 879 has my really long, expanded thoughts on RM (in the response to mastin - the 8==D spoiler). My other thoughts on RM are riddled throughout my ISO.

As for skullduggery, it's mostly gut based on 1123. I mentioned it in an earlier post (cbf finding it) but the questions he asked here were absolutely useless and basically fake scum hunting. I don't have anything substantial here except gut and feel less good about him than others I'm not reading as town atm.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1347 (isolation #55) » Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:38 am

RM is RachMarie, but yes, I know which of your reads are different to yours and which are similar.

We seem to have like 15 reads we agree on.

Thing is, I like who's on the nick wagon, I just don't think he's scum. I don't know why that particular wagon hasn't picked up speed if I'm right about him and the other people on it, but I think it has something to do with a majority of the *crowd* thinking he's town.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1348 (isolation #56) » Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:38 am

which of my reads* are different to yours

and obviously the above was @mastin

zMuffinMan · Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:05 am

@mastin,

I read over nick in ISO again and I'm not seeing the scum that you're apparently seeing.

Early posts I was null on. Attack on Mac felt genuine. Some posts after that gave me mild town vibes. Responses to various people and comments on various things looked to be coming from a town mindset. And I just don't see the scumminess.

Talk about your read here in as un-mastin-like a way as possible, and convince me I'm wrong about this.

zMuffinMan · Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:07 am

Why would he bother reading the N1 vig target? Seems like a waste of time.

zMuffinMan · Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:24 pm

ns wrote:@Muffin- I feel like if we both make it to lylo I want to vote you out of spite

We can crossvote, then.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1459 (isolation #60) » Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:08 pm

Skimmed the last few pages, more later but

@Rach,

Could you compile your current reads into 3 categories (town, null, scum)? You can add null-town or null-scum as categories if you want.

I ask this because it's very hard to actually tell what your reads are and Andrius was the only one I saw you actually call scum (and that was just a "leaning" read because something apparently felt "off"). Did I miss something?

As for my games, it's been a long time since I've played a game, so I'm not exactly sure how useful meta research on me is going to be. Do you honestly have no opinion of my play? Would you even know what to look for to judge me based on "meta"?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/search.php?a ... &sr=topics

It's probably difficult to find games I didn't replace into (since I preferred doing that over joining games from the beginning) and I have never drawn scum in a Large game (normal or theme) before. Go ahead and tell me what you find.

Also how much of this game have you actually read?

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1460 (isolation #61) » Thu Aug 15, 2013 8:26 pm

OK, no looks like I missed the scum read on Desperado, too.

This is what I gather from compiling my own list

Aj weak town
Andrius leaning scum
BnB town
BRO weak town
Desperado weak scum
FTL nullish - scummy MS (?) and town Var
Ghostlin feeling town?
Mac leaning town
mastin2 ???
nacho leaning town
thezmon probably town
malakittens null?
nick leaning town
skullduggery nullish
SoS most likely town
TD ???
TrustFund weak town
Venmar leaning town
Muffin ???

So...

Town: BnB, SoS?, thezmon
Leaning town: Ghostlin?, Mac, nacho, nick, Venmar
Weak town: Aj, BRO, TrustFund
Null: FTL, skullduggery, malakittens?
Weak scum: Desperado
Leaning scum: Andrius
???: mastin, TD, muffin

zMuffinMan · Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:11 pm

Question for anyone calling RM town: Why?

If it's based on shitty "meta" reasons, then describe at least one (preferably more than one) difference between her scum and town play, and why you think this is her town play rather than her scum play.

If it's based on the content of her posts, then... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 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... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 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I have no words.

zMuffinMan · Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:44 pm

I could get behind that vote, too, but I imagine it will be even harder to push through than the RM lynch.

zMuffinMan · Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:41 am

I would personally like to see RM expand more on

all

her reads, but that's probably a big ask, so I at least want to see her expand more on the people below...

Andrius: "but his play just does not feel right here leaning scum" <- EXPAND on this
Desperado: "Confirmation Bias much there Des? Seriously dude have you even read any of my town games, weak scum read here." <- Why is Desperado scum for this? I've probably been pushing for you harder than Desperado, and for longer too, and for much the same reasons. Besides, confirmation bias is something

townies

have - I assume you mean his tunneling is scummy? If so, why? What about his points (or mine) aren't legitimate?
FTL: "nullish due to I see scummy MS and towny Var" <- Please explain the scummy MS part at least.
thezmon: "However his tunneling looks more town tunneling than scum tunneling." <- what is the difference here that makes Desperado scum and thezmon town?
zMuffinMan: How do you have no read on me based on my content and how do you expect to discern my town and scum game if you don't already have an opinion of my play?

The biggest issue I have with #1381 (outside of the fact that the reasons for almost all of these reads are weak at best, and the scum reads are especially odd in this regard) is that it looks like her reads were manufactured so as not to go against the grain at all. This is why I want to know how much of the thread RM has actually read and what she's currently basing her reads on.

I'm not exactly sure what I expected from RM-town in terms of reads, but the reads and explanations she ended up giving are in line with what I did expet from RM-scum.

---

RM wrote:I rely a lot on Meta especially if I have not played a bunch of games with someone, which is why I was asking for links so I can skim through and see if I can get a better handle on some of the other players.

Other than the fact that I think meta arguments are ridiculously stupid because 99% of players who look at "meta" generally have no clue what to look for, I'm not sure how exactly you think you'll be able to discern scum play from town play just from skimming through a bunch of games.

mala wrote:Everyone is calling her scum and pushing her for being useless, but her reads really don't develop until later.

No. This isn't why anyone thinks she's scum (at least not as far as I can tell). It literally has nothing to do with how "useful" she's been. You're grossly understating the reasons people think she's scum.

ghost wrote:the fact you used scumslip is part of your reasoning is superfuckingbadhorrible and you should feel superfuckingbad horrible.

To be fair, it isn't part of the reason Desperado is pushing for the RM lynch, and I also read it as a weird thing for RM-town to say when I first read it. But I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt here and assume she meant "if I get lynched" rather than that being a slip.

But I mostly agree with your opinion on slips, and it's why I think the mastin "5 scum" stuff was borderline retarded. There are some times when I think you can legitimately argue that a person was not thinking with a town mindset, but they are few and far between.

ghost wrote:...sadly I would support either of these lynches for the above reasons right the hell now.

So, like I said in #1468, I can get behind the skullduggery vote, but I don't really see what you're hoping to accomplish with this vote. You apparently think RM is scum, and you said you'd be willing to vote either Andy (another leading wagon) or nacho (who many others apparently think is scum). Why skullduggery?

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1475 (isolation #65) » Fri Aug 16, 2013 2:31 am

sos wrote:Wait ppl are still discussing if NS should be vigged?

I know, right?

It's getting a bit ridiculous. I think everyone is in agreement that he needs to be vigged N1 so I don't see why people are still talking about it.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1494 (isolation #66) » Fri Aug 16, 2013 6:30 am

You realise the game that you're quoting that from, she has her scum partner in the leaning scum pile, essentially ruining your theory, right?

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1497 (isolation #67) » Fri Aug 16, 2013 6:42 am

@BnB

Your reason for thinking Andrius is scum is entirely meta reasons, right?

nacho just pointed out that you're misinterpreting Andrius's meta. Or do you think your interpretation of Andrius's meta is better than nacho's because ~reason~?

I have a gut scum read on Andrius, but it's not enough that I'd want to lynch him over someone more likely to be scum based on play.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1500 (isolation #68) » Fri Aug 16, 2013 6:48 am

I don't hold stock in meta arguments in the first place, as I've mentioned over... and over... and over...

Because almost every single person who uses meta arguments has no idea how to properly interpret meta.

I haven't personally looked at the meta arguments for nacho being scum, but I imagine they're all shit, and nacho pretty clearly described some reasons they could very well all be shit.

Whether or not nacho is scum, you're going to have to show that what nacho said about Andrius's meta is wrong if you want to push a lynch through based on meta reasons.

tl;dr Fuck meta

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1502 (isolation #69) » Fri Aug 16, 2013 6:49 am

for andrius being scum*

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1507 (isolation #70) » Fri Aug 16, 2013 7:08 am

nick wrote:Rach hasn't provided much content at all today, her reads sit on the fence so hard it's ver difficult to tell what she thinks of anyone.

You realise that interaction tells can be derived not only from what she says (or doesn't say) about people, but what other people say (or don't say) about her, right?

nick wrote:However, she has promised better reads and commentary day 2.

I imagine everyone can promise that. Do we just not lynch anyone today?

nick wrote:During day 2, if she still fails to provide any useful content, we lynch her.

I have a better idea. Let's push the deadline for her providing "useful" content to D1. Then do the same.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1517 (isolation #71) » Fri Aug 16, 2013 7:21 am

bnb wrote:I think his reactions to being called out are over the top and scummy.

OK. Then your read on Andrius is largely in line with the one I stated I had with Andrius earlier in the game, and I don't think that's enough to lynch him over right now. At least not in comparison to reasons I can think of for lynching others.

bnb wrote:But for what it's worth, I feel Mollie + Ffery agreeing on meta is pretty damning, regardless of what Nacho says.

OK. I don't think you'll be able to convince me of this, ever. Although I do want to hear a detailed analysis of Andrius's scum meta and Andrius's town meta and why he is apparently playing to his scum meta. Just linking games and saying, "oh there are similarities here!" is not a reason to think he's scum unless he never does it as town.

If you (or your other head or whoever else) can show me why what Andrius is doing here is never done by him as town, then I'd consider dropping the RM wagon for Andrius, but I highly doubt that's possible because I highly doubt they're properly interpreting the meta. I don't mean any offense here, but I'm 99% sure I'm right about this. Feel free to prove me wrong.

Or I guess people can ignore me and continue claiming this is his scum meta. Seems to have worked so far. *shrug*

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1528 (isolation #72) » Fri Aug 16, 2013 7:30 am

@bnb,

OK. It doesn't particularly bother me if it never happens, but hopefully you can understand why I'm going to ignore every argument about meta.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1537 (isolation #73) » Fri Aug 16, 2013 7:43 am

bnb wrote:best meta-based scumhunters

This means nothing to me.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1542 (isolation #74) » Fri Aug 16, 2013 7:49 am

nacho wrote:If you discount a style of scumhunting, you miss out on a lot of good stuff and suffer as a player as a result.

OK.

Which is why I said I'd consider it if they show in detail why Andrius is scum for meta reasons.

bnb just outright said it shouldn't matter and I should trust them because

bnb wrote:best meta-based scumhunters

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1562 (isolation #75) » Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:21 am

someone unvote skullduggery so he doesn't get lynched before mastin is able to post

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1576 (isolation #76) » Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:32 am

everything i say is 100% serious

i want to read mastin's wall

zMuffinMan · Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:13 am

so essentially your scum candidates are all scum because they make sense as scum together?

zMuffinMan · Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:46 am

mastin wrote:Venmar, STOP! YOU'RE GOING TO AWAKEN THE BEAST!

btw this is the funniest thing I have read in this thread so far.

zMuffinMan · Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:05 am

just going to put it out there

i, for one, am glad that we didn't quicklynch skullduggery before mastin got his thoughts out.

zMuffinMan · Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:11 am

ghostlin wrote:Although, the Skull wagon has increased by 50%. So she's still in very real danger.

this might be another case of a fast wagon meaning the person being voted is town.

zMuffinMan · Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:25 am

@bnb,

Do you want to engage me? Because you're not asking me questions, and seeing as the Andrius wagon is going nowhere until you either do something about it or he posts something that you can call scummy (hint: not happening in the next 24 hours, according to his latest post), I think the burden is on you to engage other players if you want your lynch to happen.

In the mean time, I still have to wait for RM to post some stuff so I can call all of it scummy and whine about how everyone is ignoring the obvscum in her posts. So forgive me if I make light banter while I wait. You're free to ignore it and pretend I'm not here, I imagine that's what's happened with most of my posts in this game anyway.

zMuffinMan · Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:00 pm

bnb wrote:there are plenty of objective tells to work from there so why aren't you

I honestly didn't know people still used "scum tells".

Do you want me to break down why each of them is bad?

I would rather have you explain why you think Andrius is a good lynch by citing examples of his posts rather than claiming that tells make him scum.

My thoughts on Andrius are the same as they were back here:

Godly One wrote:Gut. I don't have any substantial reason here, so you're a maybe. I didn't like the overreactions in your first wall and I'm not following some of the conclusions you came to in your reads. If I had any strong reason for thinking you were scum right now, you'd be more than maybe-scum, but I don't.

Although I will say the wall this quote is from came off as a bit more townish. It'd help if you explained the SoS/BnB scum reads though, and why you're maybescum on FTL and nick.

This is still outstanding seeing as he hasn't posted since I asked him this, and I'm not comfortable enough with my read on him that I'm happy to lynch him right now.

Tell me why I should vote for him with something more specific than "he committed tells" or "meta".

Not even going to bother pointing out the differences between Andrius/RM, or why you're wrong about me ignoring Andrius because you're clearly not reading my posts about either of them.

zMuffinMan · Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:10 pm

I have a condition under which I'd be willing to vote Andrius right now, and that is if there is enough support for a lynch on him before Varsoon is able to post his reads list. Then if he gets killed N1, I'll have no regrets regardless of the Andrius flip. It'll be magical.

zMuffinMan · Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:33 pm

@bnb,

It's debatable whether RM "stepped it up" - and it has nothing to do with painting everything she does as scummy. Are you ignoring the issues with her reads post or are you just dismissing it because ~reasons~?

My opposition to the Andrius lynch has nothing to do with whether or not there is support, but how strong my read on him is. I also have issues with the tail-end of the Andrius wagon (minus mac).

My read on RM is not gut-based.

Them being on the same team is a possibility I considered the very moment Andrius put his vote on RM (and actually played a factor in my gut read on him, because it's exactly what I thought he'd do if he was scum with RM). I'm not as sure of it now, or I'd be perfectly fine with voting Andrius (duh).

I'm not sure if it is two competing scum wagons. See last sentence of above paragraph.

zMuffinMan · Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:38 pm

OK.

Thanks for the tip.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1692 (isolation #86) » Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:28 am

rm wrote:here you go another game

I'm 10 ISO posts into that game and I already notice significant differences in your play.

rm wrote:I think the case on me is crap

Cool. Can't wait to hear why.

rm wrote:peeps were pushing skull and bam turns out he is replacing out?

damn psychics! why won't they leave normal people alone?

rm wrote:How about we catch real scum instead?

How about you try to look town? For starters, you can address the things in my #1469

In other news, I read through Andrius's ISO and I'm less confident about him being scum now. I liked most of his posts after #1043. The big wall immediately following this looks town. Why am I wrong about this?

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1694 (isolation #87) » Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:46 am

OK. From about ISO#36 onwards?

- You didn't constantly complain about being town and you actually were scum hunting.
- You acknowledged the points against you and argued why they were wrong
- "And when I flip town what will you do then TIP? Move on to your next derp lynch?" <--- Not really going to make a big deal out of this, but it's kind of funny that you used "when" instead of "if" in that game.

*shrug*

What am I meant to be seeing here that's so similar to your play in this game?

Are you going to address my #1469 at some point in the future? I don't care if you take your time, but I would prefer you stop complaining about people thinking you're scum and start trying to look town if you're actually town.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1701 (isolation #88) » Sat Aug 17, 2013 2:52 am

tl;dr

@ghostlin

who are you currently reading as town/scum?

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1704 (isolation #89) » Sat Aug 17, 2013 3:10 am

ftl wrote:scum are andy/trust fund/ nickthename /thezmon

Without reading, I'm going to guess the stuff you noticed about thezmon is the same stuff that's keeping me from putting him into my town reads. I also think if Andrius

is

scum, that thezmon makes sense as a partner, and it would probably mean RM is town or there's some really hard bussing going on right now.

But I'm not confident that Andrius is scum atm.

Also, why vote nick over Andrius? The Andrius wagon clearly has more support.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1710 (isolation #90) » Sat Aug 17, 2013 3:37 am

Yeah, OK, I have more than a few issues with the nick pbpa. This is why ISO PBPA is bad. You're not looking at the posts in context.

For example, you say he throws fuel on the rach fire in a post in which he comments on her, but that is because directly before that Desperado asked him a question that directly relates to this.

I also think the vote-hopping looks like paranoid town, not scum.

I may break down the things I agree/disagree on later in more detail, but the nick pbpa alone makes me think I'm not going to like the rest of it.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1713 (isolation #91) » Sat Aug 17, 2013 3:43 am

I'm reading over the posts again, and while I can see where you're coming from here, a big part of the reason I think nick is town is because the way in which he's attacking multiple players looks more to me like paranoid town than scum trying to accuse everyone.

The mac case, followed by the posts immediately after that (which apparently MS disliked) were a major reason I think he's town. The mastin vote was bad, but it didn't strike me as scum-motivated.

Maybe I'm really, really reading him wrong here, but I just don't see the scumminess.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1716 (isolation #92) » Sat Aug 17, 2013 4:11 am

I agree with most of your points about Andrius's earlier posts, I just disagree with the points about his later posts.

"He has reads that aren't articulated" <- I want him to explain the reads, but I don't think the lack of explanations in this post is inherently scummy like so many people seem to be suggesting.
"and when he disagrees with people he just posits a 'stahp' rather than actually bringing in a counter-argument" <- This isn't even true.
"He uses humorous images and hyperbole to make weak points" <- I didn't read anything into this. It just seemed like typical Andrius humour and I don't think this necessarily makes him scum.
"and ultimately doesn't contribute anything substantive to town" <- This, I disagree with. I thought some of the questions he was asking were good, and I agreed with some of his comments on different things.
"Calls people weak, discredits players left and right, proposes himself as a part of a townbloc" <- Even apart from the fact that I don't think these things are alignment-indicative, this is overstating what he was actually saying in this post.

The #1044 wall is what has me doubting Andrius is scum, so I find it strange that people are calling it scummy.

ftl wrote: I like looking at individual posts and not using context to make them appeal more.

Yes, I like doing this, too, but I think some stuff needs context (so I often click on the posts that I think are alignment-indicative and read them in context) and I also just don't like PBPA where you look for stuff that seems to support a pre-conceived notion about a player. That's why I didn't pay much heed to TD's horrible PBPA much earlier in the game, and I don't think thezmon's PBPA of RM is good, either.

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1802 (isolation #93) » Sun Aug 18, 2013 6:31 am

sos wrote:What part of Nacho reading GiF/me as town in this game is less compelling than him reading you as town?

I'm pretty sure he means that nacho having 100% accuracy in reading him means he's town.

*shameless prod dodge while I wait very, very patiently for RM to post so I can call her scum again*

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1806 (isolation #94) » Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:01 am

That was a typo. I meant assess her post in an unbiased manner.

zMuffinMan · Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:57 am

venmar wrote:he just needs to realize him ( and Thezmon ) trying to make all of Rach's post scummy no matter what is really dumb.

That would be really dumb. But that's not actually what I'm doing.

venmar wrote:I got Skull as null cause he was a lurker. I don't understand the case on him if it exists

Mostly that 1123 was an abominable post full of meaningless questions in an attempt to look like he was scum hunting. Read the questions he asks.

Also I'm pretty sure unvotes don't count unless you do them from the account in this game, bnb. At least that's what bork said in 831

zMuffinMan · Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:04 pm

ns wrote:Something in my gut is bugging me about Muffin.

bnb wrote:yeah well me too

Would it help if I assured you that I'm town?

bnb wrote:you don't like who's last post? muffin's? yeah, he seems to be really concerned about where the votes are.

Is this supposed to be a bad thing?

zMuffinMan · Post Post #1842 (isolation #97) » Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:45 pm

I assume I'm meant to ignore the fact that RM still isn't addressing any of the concerns with her reads post, and pretend that what she's currently doing is town.

Yep, that makes sense.

While we're at it, skullduggery was the epitome of towniness. How can anyone possibly read him as scum?

zMuffinMan · Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:02 pm

mutley wrote:Don't bother Saki. It's just all fluff, trust me I read it

mutley wrote:I will go and place my vote now.

Is this all you have to say after reading the thread?

Please, sir, I want some more.

---

@RachMarie,

Are you ever going to address 1469 or any of the other questions asked of you by other players?

If not, are you ever going to pretend you're actually scum hunting or at least comment on anything relevant to the game (like, for example, the unvotes happening on Andrius and why you're still voting him regardless, orrrrrrrrrrrrrrr anything else that's going on?)

zMuffinMan · Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:12 pm

"Some people" amounts to BnB and notscience as far as I can tell, and neither of them have elaborated on this outside of "gut" (even though I was apparently in BnB's town list as of the last time they gave their reads, I think). I think it's more of a back-of-the-mind suspicion than an outright scum read.

And then there's TrustFund I guess, but he's been silent about that for a while now, and said it was because I agreed with Ghostlin's point about him (apparently this was opportunistic).

And mastin and BRO much earlier in the thread, but they both dropped it.

zMuffinMan · Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:54 pm

sos wrote:Muttley's not winning our hearts so far though. :/

If or when the RM wagon dies, either this or BRO will be my next port of call.

zMuffinMan · Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:26 am

Not that this is related to the discussion of TD's trajectory on mac, but 1601-1610 are another example of TD's "solid" trajectory. fwiw, these posts made me lean town on TD, only because they're so insanely stupid that I have difficulty seeing scum-TD making these posts. It's like mastin goes all savant with his theory that he's found the entire scum team, and TD tried to one-up him in an effort to show who really is the King of Pantsonheadland.

In other news, 1971 and 1982 are mostly in line with my thinking. I'm becoming increasingly frustrated that RM is basically ignoring any request to elaborate on her reads, or how they may or may not have changed since her reads posts, and how she's basically done nothing since a couple people called her town for the reads post. I don't think she's town, and I don't like people saying "she does this as town" because I find it hard to believe she actually does do this as town. See 1466 for my still unanswered questions about RM's "meta". Literally no one has even attempted to give me a decent answer about this.

zMuffinMan · Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:40 pm

The bottom of this list.

BeautyAndTheBeast
Faster Than Light
Sound of Silence
Ghostlin
Venmar
Mac
mastin
Desperado
nacho
AJ
nickthename
TiphaineDeath
Andrius
Malakittens
thezmon
Trust Fund
Skullduggery
BROseidon
RachMarie

Which I haven't updated in the past few pages but the replacements haven't exactly done much to change this, anyway.

zMuffinMan · Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:09 am

ghostlin wrote:Closing options and ending the day doesn't produce more content. If we're going to durr day 2 like the end of this day, then I'd rather keep my vote where it is and see where consensus is.

The problem is that all the major lynch candidates are providing literally zero content. So the game is currently stalling and waiting for Andrius, RM, BRO, Muttley et al to fucking do something.

*shrug*

zMuffinMan · Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:17 am

Actually a wagon on nick never developed because some of the more vocal players have either called nick town (like myself) or simply don't have anything other than a null read on him. Also, no one has actually presented half-decent reasons to think nick is scum. Mastin's non-existent case on nick is that his posts are scummy and that's that. And I don't recall anyone else really giving any reasons.

(2) is flawed for a number of reasons. I could just as easily say RM is scum because if she was such an easy mislynch like everyone is saying she is, then it shouldn't be so damn hard to get her lynched. Based on this, I presume RM is scum and all these little mini-wagons that have been sprouting up are to keep us from consolidating on RM.

zMuffinMan · Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:44 am

bnb wrote:Avoiding answering questions, having poor votes, not showing any town motivation in his posting...

I mean, really, why are you reading him as town?

Your definition of "town motivation" must be different to mine. I think the justification for the "poor" votes looked townish. I also think some of the questioning he's done has looked town (like the way in which he questioned me about my town reads on his scum reads, for example, didn't feel scum-motivated, and felt more like town trying to figure out why someone is reading the game differently to him). I'm not aware of which questions you're saying he avoided answering.

If you want my full thoughts on nick, I've gone over them several times in responses to mastin, FTL, etc.

Ironically, though, those reasons you mentioned for thinking nick is scum are only

some

of the reasons I think RM is scum.

bnb wrote:Do you see the problem with your position?

It wasn't meant to be an analogy. I was attempting to point out the absurdity in theorising why such and such did or didn't happen, by making a similarly absurd case about the RM wagon.

zMuffinMan · Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:47 am

Actually, I'm just going to repeat this:

bnb wrote:
Avoiding answering questions, having poor votes, not showing any town motivation in his posting...

How do you not see the irony in thinking nick is scum and not thinking RM is scum?

zMuffinMan · Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:08 am

majiffy wrote:... Except there's nothing absurd whatsoever with my theory, counterwagons and splitting up wagons is a common scum tactic in games.

No, I'm not saying it's an absurd theory in that it couldn't happen, but that it's an absurd theory if you're saying that

is what's happening

- if you're basing your vote on nick on a theory like that, then I'm calling it absurd. And I could just as easily make up an absurd theory for why the RM wagon is stalling (it's on scum, scum don't want to bus, if she was town, she'd have been lynched already, etc).

majiffy wrote:
(1)
Because RM can be scatter-brained in games with high activity like this. And that explains the first two.
(2)
I'm assuming your argument on the third probably relies on the first two being some kind of alignment-indicative sticking point.

(1) OK. At least you're acknowledging that these reasons apply to RM just as much as nick, so that's a start. The only problem I have here is that you're differentiating between nick and RM because you apparently know RM can do this as town, but you're not sure whether nick does this as town. If you know someone can do this as town, why are these reasons to find nick suspicious and not RM?

(2) The third has to do with, for example, the questions both of them have been asking (whereas nick has been asking questions that actually pertain to scum hunting, like questioning people when their reads differ from his, or asking for explanations of cases, etc, RM has been primarily asking useless questions that didn't have anything to do with her reads or getting a better idea of the thought processes of the people she's questioning) and the way each of them has gone about pursuing their reads (whereas nick has been making cases and giving reasons for his thought processes throughout the game, RM has given two weak scum reads and then gave really, really poor justification for voting Andrius). How easily I can follow the thought processes of a player, and how genuine it looks, is how I discern town motivation from scum motivation. Is it different for you, or do you simply disagree with my assessment?

zMuffinMan · Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:17 am

Also, just a general question, that relates to my 1466 (which still no one has attempted to give me an answer to):

What exactly would RM need to fucking do for you to think she's scum?

Like really, how the fuck do you tell when she's scum if this is her town play?

zMuffinMan · Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:48 am

He spent the early game saying there was scum on the TD wagon, and then did nothing to really dissect it (except name a few names, which later changed anyway). I also think the way in which he wrote TD off as town purely for the speed of the wagon was fake. He later adds that TD's "trajectory" on mac was part of the reason, but none of this was mentioned in BRO's early posts calling TD town. He literally said the speed of the wagon alone makes TD town.

Also his posts are essentially void of content. Take 267 for example. If you really break down the things he's saying there, it's all empty bullshit. I don't sense any real scum hunting ther. It looks like he was just commenting on stuff for the sake of commenting on stuff and making up fake reads based on whatever, which relates to what SoS was talking about when he described them as mushy and sometimes inaccurate.

zMuffinMan · Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:49 am

bnb wrote:Someone can reliably do things as town that are generally scummy. Rach is one of these people.

The thing with tells is if they don't apply universally, then they aren't reliable tells, and thus shouldn't be used in a case against someone (except maybe as extra evidence to go along with a real case).

You can't just say, "well A does X, and B does X, but A does X is town... B is still scummy for doing X"

Logic doesn't work that way.

bnb wrote:Or look at her town play in general.

I have. I gave my thoughts on the town game she herself linked in this game, in a back-and-forth with her that ended when with me telling her that, in this game, she's not doing what she did as town in the game she linked.

bnb wrote:One theory proposed is that the active players have voiced town reads on Nick.

No, I said "vocal" players. I probably should have elaborated that I meant people who were actually putting out analysis in decent volume as opposed to people who were merely calling people scum/town without really elaborating on their reads.

It's hard to really push a lynch through when you don't have a case vs people who are analysing posts and questioning the cases (or lack thereof).

bnb wrote:why has this wagon stalled at 3 votes, while other wagons have had no problems growing and dying out naturally?

This is actually something I commented on much earlier in the game when I was talking with mastin in one of my posts. I cbf going back and finding which one specifically, but I said I really didn't know why the wagon was stalling if I'm right about nick and who was on the wagon at the time, but I thought it might have something to do with the lack of cases or the people opposing it at the time. It would also make sense if there were different town wagons occurring at the time. And it would also make sense if a majority of scum weren't all that active in the game (which actually coincides with who I think is scum, so I like this theory).

zMuffinMan · Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:01 pm

PS:

bnb wrote:only half of these 6 total town-reading-nick players have mounted any kind of legitimate defense / argument for nick-town.

I imagine if I look through the ISOs of the people who have said nick is either scum or maybescum, the amount of people making a case is basically.... FTL? Off the top of my head, he's the only one who has legitimately analysed nick's posts and said why he think's nick is scum, and that was only relatively recently, when the Andrius/RM wagons were the main ones.

zMuffinMan · Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:21 pm

Yeah I'm going through the ISOs of the people you have listed as calling nick scum.

- mastin has no case on nick. at all.
- Your case on nick is (was originally) that his reads are bad and he's playing "hyper-aggressive" which apparently makes him scum because he's done this in skype mafia games.
- AJ had nick as scum for "bad" votes and I talked with AJ a little about what I thought of this (specifically, that I didn't think he was analysing the motivation behind the posts properly)
- FTL's case which came long after the wagon on nick had evaporated (and I've already given my thoughts on that, too)
- Nothing from the rest, really.

If you really,

reeeeeaaaaally

push it, you can maybe call it three cases on nick being scum given in this thread so far, which are all essentially about how "bad" his scum suspects are with little analysis of his actual play.

zMuffinMan · Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:42 pm

So I just went over nick's ISO from as neutral a perspective as I possibly could.

I don't feel as strongly that he's town, but I still get mild town vibes from a lot of his posts (particularly from the lines of questioning and the progression of his reads). And I don't really see the scum intent in his posts. I can see how his early posts might possibly be perceived as scum-motivated but I didn't feel it at all. I don't think his reads look fake, even if they are "bad". The recent lack of activity is meh.

Tell me why I'm wrong about nick without making large generalisations that equally apply to other people.

zMuffinMan · Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:11 pm

bnb wrote:Then there is no such thing as a reliable tell and we aught to just quit
using "tells" as reasons
right now.

ftfy. also, qft.

zMuffinMan · Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:55 pm

*shrug* You think generic tells are useful (except not really, because you only apply them to some players).

zMuffinMan · Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:31 pm

Look, dipshit, you cannot use something as a "scum tell" for one person and then suggest it's not a "scum tell" for another, because ~reasons~.

Logic doesn't work like that. If you know someone commits said tell as town, then it's not a fucking scum tell, and you shouldn't be using generic bullshit in your case on someone.

If avoiding your questions is a scum tell, then RM is scum 100 times over. Either that, or your tell doesn't apply.

If shitty votes is a scum tell, then RM is scum 100 times over (not only because her vote on Andy is shitty, but because it's the only vote she's put down all game, AND she's done nothing with it even though she's posted since people started unvoting Andy). Either that, or your tell doesn't apply.

The only legitimate reason you have for thinking nick is scum is "lack of town motivation" in his posts and that's debatable. Since you've done

absolutely nothing

to show what you mean by this, even when I told you outright some things that looked town-motivated in his posts, you can't really use this as a fucking point against him. So your only legitimate reason isn't even legitimate.

In other words, you have no case on nick, and your shitty generic tells shouldn't be used. Ever.

Want more examples of shitty generic tells you've used?

In post 1637, BeautyAndTheBeast wrote:universal scumtells that andy has dropped:

- thread avoidance
- posturing
- buddying
- over-defensiveness when pushed
- appeal to crowd
- lack of cogent progression of reads
- reads list soup which you guys are and heavy to leap all over rach for but seem to ignore that andy did the same thing. the difference is you have people telling you that rach does this as town but other people are telling you that andy does not <--- tangential to a meta read so you will probably ignore it.

derp

Stop using these fucking "tells" to suggest someone is scum. It's horrible and just discredits any attempt from you at painting someone as scum. These are not fucking scum tells.

tl;dr u moron lol

zMuffinMan · Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:44 pm

*shrug* He started the ad hom. If he can't deal with it, it's not my fault.

zMuffinMan · Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:57 pm

I can't argue the cases on my suspicions any more than I already have without being more repetitive than I'm already being, and nobody wants to give any refutations of them, despite multiple requests to do so (1466 is STILL outstanding, no one has addressed this yet).

I cannot agree with the cases made by other people on someone I think is town if they are completely unwilling to address where I've gone wrong in my read, even though I've been pretty open about how I arrived at each of my reads.

So asking

me

to work towards a different wagon that can be agreed upon seems nonsensical. How about

you

convince me to move my vote, or tell me why you don't agree with my suspicions. Because I've already told you my thoughts on yours.

zMuffinMan · Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:15 pm

@FTL,

My criticisms of the nick wagon are to do with BnB's reasons for thinking nick is scum. They do not reflect my own reasons for thinking RM is scum. They have nothing to do with my reasons for thinking RM is scum. If those were my reasons for thinking RM is scum, I'd be ashamed of myself.

To reiterate the reasons I think RM is scum, it's because she spent a majority of the early game doing virtually no scum hunting, asking useless questions to appear like she was involved in the game (useless questions that she ought to have known the answer to without asking), didn't take any stances on anything up until her reads post, and then there's her reads post itself where I've been repeatedly asking her to explain them in a bit more depth (or at the very least, explain her scum reads) and instead of doing this she's spent the last few days active lurking. These are my reasons for thinking RM is scum in a very condensed version, and I've gone over the reasons in much more detail in previous posts. I also agree with nacho's points on RM in 1971 and think you should read that if you haven't already.

I'm also you're underrating how much information there is to be gained from RM's flip, given how much different people have said about her.

zMuffinMan · Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:50 pm

. . . sure . . .

zMuffinMan · Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:25 am

prod dodge. also,

RM wrote:Well can you at least see why some of us might find him scummy based on his posts, since we all do not have a direct line to his heart?

Please give your own thoughts on his posts and which parts you think are scummy. While you're at it, do the same for your other scum reads.

zMuffinMan · Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:04 am

How much of that thought is from orangutan?

And are you eventually going to post "shittycatchu["?

zMuffinMan · Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:12 am

@sos,

I am more than willing to lynch BRO, but I don't feel the same way about RM as you do. If you put footwork into making the BRO wagon viable, I am willing to switch over... But I don't want to abandon the RM wagon for a pipedream.

zMuffinMan · Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:13 am

Mutley as well*

zMuffinMan · Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:33 am

No, I know the reasons for your suspicion on both, and I completely agree with them (and have my own independent reasons for thinking both are likely scum, which I've already gone over).

It's just that neither of those lynches seems to have any traction at the moment.

If there was enough support for either of them, I'd jump on those wagons.

zMuffinMan · Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:41 am

@sos,

*shrug* Doesn't change anything. If there's not enough support, then there's not enough support. For the sake of argument, you can say my vote is on both mutley and BRO in spirit. You, as well. Then there's Ghostlin (who I believe has both as scum reads of some strength). Then maybe a couple others, and that's it.

@saki,

Please stop.

zMuffinMan · Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:48 am

bnb wrote:can everyone just grow a pair for 5 minutes and call andy on his bluff

While I'm not sure on the exact reasoning for his *plan*, I have two theories about why he wants people to take a firm stance on either him or RM, and I don't think it's a bluff.

zMuffinMan · Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:57 am

bnb wrote:if you don't think it is a bluff then help him

You do realise he was asking for a split between him and RM, right? So... I am technically helping him.

zMuffinMan · Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:18 am

andy wrote:and muffin

no.

zMuffinMan · Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:56 pm

andy wrote:THERE NEEDS TO BE A BIT OF DISCUSSION, UNDERSTANDING, AND ORGANIZATION

overrated

zMuffinMan · Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:59 pm

why do you have BRO as a town read?

zMuffinMan · Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:02 pm

if you swap mastin and BRO, and move around a couple other reads, your list is mostly the same as mine

why is mastin scum? 'coz useless or actual reasons?

zMuffinMan · Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:15 pm

i don't think that makes saki scum, just useless.

and i think mastin being useless is mastin being useless. i don't think it's him being useless because he's scum.

zMuffinMan · Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:31 pm

i take it you no longer think saki is town because of thezmon then, andy?

zMuffinMan · Sun Aug 25, 2013 4:25 pm

RM is effectively L-1 (for all intents and purposes).

RM claim.

zMuffinMan · Sun Aug 25, 2013 4:36 pm

Yeah dividing the wagons even more closer to the deadline is a good idea and not counter-productive at all.

(Y)

zMuffinMan · Sun Aug 25, 2013 4:38 pm

If a flashwagon develops on BRO or mutley because RM happens to do something so amazingly and undeniably town in the next couple hours, I'm fine with that.

zMuffinMan · Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:24 pm

i'm taking you seriously, ftl

it's quite clear that andrius is vig and scum and knows there is no way he will die tonight

zMuffinMan · Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:02 pm

anti-climactic hammer

zMuffinMan · Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:37 pm

BRO wrote:So it's scummy to let town stall out to a no-lynch>?

Got it.

More the fact that you're clearly still following the thread but not posting content.

zMuffinMan · Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:21 am

Vote: BRO

zMuffinMan · Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:37 am

seeing as you obviously wrote that all overnight, the least you could have done is linked the posts you're commenting on. woulda taken you an extra minute or two to add [post] tags.

zMuffinMan · Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:53 am

i read that entire thing and even went through the posts to see which ones you're referencing and i cannot tell who you actually think is scum

as far as i can tell, you mentioned nacho is maybe scum maybe town maybe scum maybe town maybe scum but is apparently a good lynch today
venmar is scum? maybe?
one of nick and BnB is scum (but no elaboration on which one)
and no mention of mala but now a vote on mala (unless i missed you mentioning mala somewhere...)

BRO wrote:Muffin or FTL might be a bus.

hahaha, no. if you're actually entertaining the idea that i spent 75 pages trying to get people to lynch my buddy, only to have them grudgingly (fucking

grudgingly

) agree to it for deadline reasons, then you're kidding yourself.

BRO wrote:2108- The post of mine you linked had plenty of content. Lrn2notdeathtunnel.

no, it didn't. it had zero content.

zMuffinMan · Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:07 am

the post i linked in 2108 was 267. let's break down that post, shall we?

the first quote-response is iioa
the second quote-response is a non-committal read on varsoon
the third quote-response you say youre going to "note" something that you've never seen from mac before (because apparently you not seeing this as either town or scum from mac before is noteworthy and makes mac scum or something)
the fourth quote-response is nothing... it's another non-committal comment that means absolutely nothing
the fifth quote-response is nothing
the sixth quote-response is overreacting to the ic stuff
the seventh quote-response is nothing
the eighth quote-response is the first real read you've given - a scum read on mac... for... ~reasons~
the ninth quote-response is nothing
and the final quote-responses reminds me that i need to go back and look at who RM (and you) attacked for being on the early TD wagon (thanks for making me go back and check this post again, btw, because i probably would not have seen this otherwise) - it's also a bullshit reason to give TD a town read but i don't really care enough about this to argue it again
the final parts of this post you dish out some apparently strong town reads and two weak scum reads, and then you don't even vote either of your scum reads

so i guess it's not fair to say zero content, but very little content. all of your posts feel like this. i don't sense any real scum hunting intent in your posts. the few questions you ask feel empty in the same way skullduggery's third post felt. the comments are mostly non-committal and there's no followup on anything. some of this may be activity-related, but that doesn't really explain everything.

267 and the following posts where you criticise the TD wagon and then do absolutely nothing with it were the main reason for my early scum read on you

zMuffinMan · Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:28 am

give me your current reads in a single post, bro.

zMuffinMan · Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:07 pm

if someone who i think is town gives me good reason to sheep them, i will

zMuffinMan · Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:08 pm

i skimmed the last 10 pages. someone talk to me about who is scum because apparently we're not allowed to lynch any of my scum reads anymore, which is a kick in the balls

zMuffinMan · Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:24 pm

yeah i remember not like mala's response to the rach cases. but i didn't like anyone's fucking repsonses because everyone was fucking dismissing it because "LYNCH BAIT LOL"

i also remember not liking nick's responses to rach, but his were almost too blatant to be scum-scum interaction

i might read some isos

@andrius,

what are your current scum reads?

zMuffinMan · Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:32 pm

if you swap aj for mastin, that list is mostly in line with where i'm at right now

zMuffinMan · Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:34 pm

so i'm not lynching the following today: andrius, bnb, desperado, ftl, ghostlin, mac, mastin, nacho, TD

and i apparently can't lynch the following because they claimed vig or some bullshit actions last night which don't really confirm them but people are giving them a free pass anyway: bro, mutley, trust fund

and so i'm left with: aj, mala, nick, venmar

and anyone else i may have left out

zMuffinMan · Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:42 pm

mutley should shoot venmar tonight. that gets rid of two of my problems.

zMuffinMan · Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:49 pm

he's not a town read

i don't really have issues with him but i'm not reading him as town

zMuffinMan · Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:54 pm

yeah. but maybe scum by poe.

zMuffinMan · Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:07 pm

votecount

Spoiler:

just putting this here so i can ctrl+f my iso and find the important d1 wagons to look at later

bnb wrote:he was on to mala all day what are you talking about

he was talking about a mala/rach scum team for a lot of D1 and swapped to rach relatively late.

if there was bussing on the rach wagon when it was stalling, he would be my first guess.

zMuffinMan · Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:35 pm

bnb wrote:how does that fit in your worldview

I don't know. I haven't thought about it much, yet. I don't think all three of {RM, mala, AJ} make sense together as scum, unless AJ was doing some serious distancing D1 (it's not something I'm currently ruling out).

So. I don't know. It's something that I'll revisit if we lynch one of them and they flip scum. I'm not all that concerned with it at the moment.

mac wrote:there have been developments since you voted him.

ftr, I'm still voting BRO. I'll move my vote when I see a good reason to move it to someone else.

Anyway. Going to read mala/nick/AJ ISOs in a bit.

zMuffinMan · Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:06 am

aj wrote:No one wanted Mala lynched, and I didn't change to Rach until Mastin and Thezmon made a case.

Mastin didn't make a case, unless you count him saying "nacho scum = rach scum!"

thezmon's case was practically a rehash of what desperado and I had been saying about her for the 20 pages prior to that.

aj wrote:When Mala tied herself to Rach by calling Thezmon's case bad, I then voted Rach saying that I could prove Mala was scum if Rach flipped scum.

Yes. That is generally the point I was making in 2724.

zMuffinMan · Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:24 am

aj wrote:This is more than enough to convince me she's protecting her scumbuddy.

As opposed to the 15 other people who are town for doing the same thing, right?

Because it's not like the fucking arguments that desperado and I were making were dismissed by almost everybody for similar reasons.

Question: Why do you think mala would be so blatant in protecting deadweight that was bound to be lynched at some point anyway, if not on D1?

This is what I'm trying to figure out right now.

aj wrote:2. And you have a problem with this line of logic? I've yet to see anyone dispute it.

I'm saying the timing of it is convenient for a bus on a wagon I think is otherwise likely to be all town.

It's possible you're also town. But I'm not picking up on town cues in your posts that everyone else seems to be picking up on, and I could reasonably see your interactions with RM D1 as distancing until the point you realised RM was a viable wagon and you wanted to be a part of it if it went through.

*shrug* If I had a brilliant case against you, it would be more than simply a paranoid suspicion. I'm considering possibilities right now.

zMuffinMan · Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:06 am

aj wrote:Because I think Mala felt that I'd eventually get her lynch

Even if mala is scum, I do not think she felt much in the way of pressure from your suspicion of her.

aj wrote:Therefore, if she could protect a buddy and just stall out to have an andrius lynch go through, she might be able to protect Rach from being pressured on day 2 calling both wagons town.

...

aj wrote:There was a strong chance to save Rach from being lynched and in fact, she almost got it until BnB switched their vote back.

Interestingly, this didn't make me feel any better about you. I will go back and find the post I'm talking about here.

aj wrote:Let me ask you: Had Andrius flipped (which is a flip that is almost certain to be town now), would you go back to Rach and immediately try to lynch her?

No, I think I would have given up on a lynch I spent 75 pages pushing. That seems like the only reasonable course of action.

aj wrote:But show me such a blatant dismissal of a case where someone looks at it and goes "So you're policy lynching Rach?"

EVERY
FUCKING
PERSON
NOT
ON
THE
RM
WAGON
DID
THIS

zMuffinMan · Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:15 am

2331 and 2333 were two posts from you that I didn't like at the end of D1

granted it was getting close to the deadline and i could reasonably see you doing this as town because it's better than a no lynch, but I didn't like the stuff you were saying about the wagons, and this was at a time where people opposing the RM wagon were reconsidering their RM read

zMuffinMan · Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:32 pm

bnb wrote:Why aren't you voting Nick?

Because I have this weird feeling that I'm completely on the wrong track in this game, and that at least two of my town reads are scum, but I don't know which ones.

I'm currently going through each of my reads and trying to figure out which ones I'm wrong about.

ftr, I'm not currently reading nick or venmar as scum and I'm wavering on mala.

:/

zMuffinMan · Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:13 pm

not voting nick

zMuffinMan · Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:15 pm

In post 2962, notscience wrote:There's one scumbuddy

ur reads r good

zMuffinMan · Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:20 pm

1504 is the one post i'm trying to figure out now and is the only interaction with rach that looked like possible scum-scum interaction.

the rest of it looked town. especially the stuff towards the end of d1. e.g. 2345 and 2374 do not make a lot of sense if nick is scum with rach.

also i'm reading the posts today from him as town who genuinely thinks people are shit at reading him (or scum calling him scum). there are also other parts of his iso that look town (i went over this d1)

i don't think his play has been good, but i don't currently think he's scum.

zMuffinMan · Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:23 pm

because rm was lynched before he came back. he said something about being back in 7.5 hours in 2393

zMuffinMan · Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:37 pm

bnb wrote:BROseidon, Trust Fund, mastin2, Ghostlin, zMuffinMan, Aj, Andy, Nacho, BaTB, NS
How many of these people are in your scum reads?

2, with a maybe on a 3rd, and i'm also reconsidering my reads on the rest.

i still think bro is scum, but i realise i probably can't get him lynched today

i'm not as fond of trust fund as others seem to be

and the only reason i'm not avidly defending nick right now is because i'm not completely sure he's town.

what i'm still trying to figure out is why the nick wagon stalled d1 when it was competing with the rm wagon (i have a couple theories regarding this, but they require me being wrong about a couple of my town reads) and whether the interactions with rm makes sense as scum-scum interactions (i'm currently thinking no)

zMuffinMan · Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:47 pm

bnb wrote:Who's the maybe 3rd?

bro and aj are the 2, trust fund is the maybe 3rd

bnb wrote:Also please explain what happened between these posts;

reading isos.

bnb wrote:I went down to the store and got you something

i know. i hate not having clear reads but something feels off about this game and i'm trying to figure out where i've gone wrong.

zMuffinMan · Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:50 pm

if nick is town, what do you make of the wagon stalling when it was in competition with the rm wagon?

zMuffinMan · Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:59 pm

bnb wrote:Weak.

*shrug*

If you consider the possibility that you're wrong and help me figure out what nick being town means for the rest of the game, then I will consider the possibility I'm currently over-thinking things.

bnb wrote:I need the wagon to go through before any meaningful analysis can be made.

[7] RachMarie (zMuffinMan, Andrius, Desperado, Aj The Epic, Nachomamma8, TiphaineDeath, Ghostlin)
[5] nickthename (mastin2, notscience, BeautyAndTheBeast, Faster Than Light, Mutleyddmc)
[3] Andrius (Trust Fund, Malakittens, RachMarie)
[2] mastin2 (BROseidon, nickthename)
[1] BROseidon (Sound of Silence)
[1] Mutleyddmc (Saki)
[1] TiphaineDeath (Venmar)

[1] Not Voting (Mac)

zMuffinMan · Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:08 pm

no. that's why i'm trying to figure out what was going on.

either the rm wagon was an elaborate bus
or scum wasn't very active at the time these wagons were occurring
or scum didn't want to take a contradictory stance to one they'd already taken on nick
or i'm wrong about my town reads

zMuffinMan · Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:15 pm

ftl wrote:makes me wonder if he's trying to coast and hope the wagon'll go away

................

YEAH, because that works ALL THE TIME

nick must be a next-level scum player

zMuffinMan · Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:02 am

bnb wrote:How about we go with the more likely and logical answer that nick is scum

i don't think it is necessarily the most likely/logical answer

aj wrote:He's certainly been scummy at a glance and even at an iso

expand on this

also, i don't see what the point of your #2993 is. seems like a lot of talking about nothing, and no conclusion, except that he may have been buddying except that doesn't make sense and so maybe he wasn't and so maybe he is scum but he doesn't make as much sense as scum with your other scum suspect and flipped scum and waffle waffle waffle

zMuffinMan · Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:43 am

@bro

why do you think one of bnb/nick is scum, other than "because..."? i don't think i've seen you explain this, except that you may have said you don't think it's tvt at some point.

also none of those venmar quotes look like scum buddy quotes. maybe i'm weird in thinking this.

the only reason i began doubting my venmar-town read is because near the end of d1 he was fucking useless, pushing lynches that would

never

happen, even to the point where the deadline was looming and it was obvious they wouldn't happen.

the rm interactions i'm leaning town on.

bro wrote:So which of your scumreads are you rethinking

all of them

bro wrote:Have you looked at Rach's interactions towards nick, or just nick's towards Rach?

2966

bro wrote:Can you stop scumreading me so we can work together on this now?

i'll stop scumreading you when i stop scumreading you

zMuffinMan · Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:49 am

bro wrote:Could you indicate why, because his interactions with the Rach wagon suck and saying on a high level "it's bad and scummy" does jack shit towards actually convincing me.

why i think the venmar interactions with the rm wagon were town? because they looked genuine. like he actually thought he was right and that the people pushing rm were idiots tunneling. also, it didn't seem overplayed - he gave his thoughts on it, and didn't come back to it again and again, like he could have done if he really wanted to derail the rm wagon.

also, i don't like comparing the actions of a player who has given up (or at least is pretending to have given up) to yourself and suggesting this is makes nick more likely scum, or somehow makes you more likely town

zMuffinMan · Fri Aug 30, 2013 11:52 am

also, the fact that venmar was reading neither andrius or rm as scum and didn't take an opportunity to jump on andrius for deadline reasons is in his favour as well. (assuming andrius is town)

if venmar's aim was to derail or discredit the rm wagon, i find it more likely that he'd push a fucking viable counterwagon over what he was doing d1

zMuffinMan · Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:02 pm

bro wrote:So you've only dug through nick's stuff?

no, i've looked over rach's iso several times. she has minor interactions with a lot of people that i'm not reading too deeply into, and i don't pretend i can discern which of her reads were more likely to be about her scum partners than townies because they were all tripe. i'm sure you could find equally "scummy" interactions between just about any player you can call scum in her iso (trust me, i've gone through it enough times without any bias to know that i could make a case for just about anyone being her partner given how wishy-washy she was on every single player). so i'm discounting most of the things rm said about people in favour of looking at things that people said about rm.i mentioned the interactions that i thought were most significant

bro wrote:It's either BnB have a really solid case, or BnB are scum who've created a really solid case

i don't think bnb had a solid case on nick (i talked about this in depth d1) and i don't think they're scum.

bro wrote:So then why not try to build a case?

ha. cases are fucking useless in this game. i learnt that all too well d1. priority no.1 is stopping a lynch on someone i think could be town.

zMuffinMan · Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:08 pm

ok, that's great. but so far no one on the nick wagon has really

presented

a case. and i've been talking about the things i think make him likely town.

so what's your fucking point?

this is the exact same fucking shit that happened d1. i talk about reasons i think x. people say no but don't give good reasons why. then it's apparently my fault for not convincing people when i can't even talk about their reasons.

zMuffinMan · Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:12 pm

null. he jumped on for bad reasons, but i can see him doing it as town and scum. vote because he thinks it's a 1v1->unvote when he realises that they weren't considering the possibility of roleblock.

*shrug*

it was bad. but it was utterly fucking stupid if he's scum.

zMuffinMan · Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:23 pm

btw, the fact that there

is no case on nick

is another reason i hate this wagon.

no one has really given opinions on his play, so if he is town, i can't really look at any one player and assess their reasons for being on the nick wagon.

ftl gave his thoughts on nick 50 pages ago, and didn't really care about nick's response to him. bnb had their d1 case on nick. andrius has pointed to some posts he didn't like from nick here and there. and that's it, as far as i can tell.

the rest of it comes down to people thinking nick could be scum for ~reasons~

i really hope i'm wrong about nick being town. it would make this game a lot easier.

zMuffinMan · Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:53 pm

oh, i read it and forgot. i didn't consider it a case. i think a lot of it was misrepresenting what nick was actually saying. parts of it you didn't consider the tone of the posts, and parts of it were just not actually what he was saying. if you want me to break down all your thoughts and tell you what i mean specifically i can.

zMuffinMan · Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:55 pm

also you don't even think nick makes sense as scum with your other suspicions, and when you asked the rhetorical question of whether you personally think nick is scum, your answer was that you wouldn't be surprised if he was because of bad posting.

zMuffinMan · Fri Aug 30, 2013 4:28 pm

@aj

Spoiler:

zMuffinMan · Fri Aug 30, 2013 4:57 pm

bnb wrote:this is a wagon by townies for townies

Who are your scum reads outside of nick?

zMuffinMan · Fri Aug 30, 2013 5:41 pm

bnb wrote:I found these questions weird freaking questions to ask.

*shrug* It pertained to why you thought it was a town-driven wagon.

zMuffinMan · Fri Aug 30, 2013 7:24 pm

bro wrote:This inconsistency from day 1 feels like scum-MS trying to capitalize on SoS and BnB hating my hammer.

while the inconsistency is weird, that doesn't make a lot of sense. sos had been calling you scum all d1. why do you think he'd choose your hammer to capitalise on their read on you?

bro wrote:Really don't like the way FTL responds to the Mala wagon.

you really think that looks like something scum-ftl says about their buddy?

zMuffinMan · Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:12 am

@bnb,

who do you think is scum if nick is town?

zMuffinMan · Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:27 am

bro wrote:SoS was the only one who gave any serious push against me day 1

he was the only one that seriously pushed you because the rest of the game had other priorities in {rm, andrius, nick} and he was the only one who thought all three were town and you were scum.

he was far from the only one scum reading you.

bro wrote:a bunch of people came in with OMG HAMMER SO TERRIBLE

i don't think anyone cared about the hammer itself, more about the fact you were clearly still following the thread but not posting content... which i mentioned... and you never really addressed.

why

were

you still following the thread but not posting anything in the way of content?

zMuffinMan · Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:56 am

@aj,

Spoiler:

zMuffinMan · Sun Sep 01, 2013 1:52 am

@desperado,

who do you think is scum?

zMuffinMan · Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:51 pm

@ghosty

why do you think mala is scum?

zMuffinMan · Mon Sep 02, 2013 2:18 am

ghost wrote:hyper aggressive defense

what is this referring to exactly?

mala wrote:pushing much of no one

i don't agree with this, but i would agree that mala's pushes weren't very strong.

ghost wrote:Day 2 is her doing fuck all passively while we try to hang her

i don't really like this (from mala or nick, it's actually starting to piss me off to the point i'm starting not to care if nick is lynched today), but i'm not convinced this has anything to do with mala's (or nick's) alignment.

ghost wrote:Granted, I rage at everything, but there's no meltdown. It's more 'meh, whatever.

well, there was the ftl thing where mala said she was considering replacing out, but that seemed rather over the top. i have no experience with her, so i don't know if this is overacting or status quo for a player like her

i dunno. i read over mala's iso and saw some things that made me think scum and other things that made me think town. at this point in time with my vote on bro going nowhere, i'm considering voting mala, but i don't really feel all that strongly about her, and would really only be doing it because i don't like the other major wagon today.

zMuffinMan · Mon Sep 02, 2013 2:20 am

nick wrote:I went to a waterpark today. I highly recommend it. Rereading now.

are you rereading the entire thread or something? it's taking a while

zMuffinMan · Mon Sep 02, 2013 5:02 am

venmar

who do you think is scum outside of mac (and nacho)? i'm not as confident as i was d1, but i still think mac is very likely town.

zMuffinMan · Mon Sep 02, 2013 3:28 pm

this game makes me sad

zMuffinMan · Mon Sep 02, 2013 3:42 pm

you're not even reading my posts are you?

zMuffinMan · Mon Sep 02, 2013 3:58 pm

ftl wrote:I want your current reads.
In one post.

these are my tiered reads town at the top, scum at the bottom. the ones in the middle i'm still trying to sort properly right now. the ones at the very top are the reads i'm most confident are town.

Modified: ‎2013‎年‎9‎月‎2‎日, ‏‎0:25:03

bnb, ftl, venmar, td, ghostlin

nick, nacho, mac
desperado, mastin, andrius
mala, muttley, trust fund
aj
bro

zMuffinMan · Mon Sep 02, 2013 4:07 pm

ftl wrote:Zmuffin, would you support a Mala lynch, then?

i'll tell you at a later juncture if a mala wagon becomes relevant.

bnb wrote:muffin what can I do

who do you think is scum if nick is town?

zMuffinMan · Mon Sep 02, 2013 4:27 pm

ftl wrote:It's relevant now.

not really. i have two reasons i don't want to talk about my thoughts on mala at the moment. don't bother asking what they are because i'm not going to tell you.

ftl wrote:I guess the true worst scenario is that I get NK'd and Mala flips town. Hm.

you don't say.

zMuffinMan · Mon Sep 02, 2013 4:35 pm

because i'm not reading him as town (and outside of the people claiming he is playing to his "town meta", i don't think the reasons people are calling him town are all that good). i have a few issues with the reasoning behind his votes/suspicions and a gut suspicion based on his position on different wagons.

most of my thoughts on this i've already gone over in a lot more depth today, which is why i know you haven't been reading any of my posts.

zMuffinMan · Mon Sep 02, 2013 4:40 pm

@trust fund,

i don't think muttley is "confirmed" because he's an "un-cc'd" vig.