Scummies Invitational 2012 (Game Over)

[Magua]

Hai guiz.



10 pages? Go away.

[Magua]

So out of Fate/Reckoner/LLD/Hito drama, the only thing I've gotten out of that is a townread on kanyeknowsbest.

I had a scumread on Reckoner with his "Fate claimed scum to me out-of-thread and is lulzing about it," because that's pretty much the epitome of what Fate would do regardless of alignment and Reckoner not seeing it that way was incredibly off. But since the whole thing was fake anyways, that read being manufactured is explained and lulnull.

Benmage not reading the thread is Benmage. This is bad but null for him. Originally hoped kdowns slipped and could just be lynched, but absolutely believe he just is horribly confused. Neither of these is alignment tells for them, as I believe they just don't care/understand, respectively, regardless of alignment. (The only thing out of the ordinary for Benmage at this point FMPOV is actually posting a full reads list, which is lolwtf in itself.)

Entirely believe Elmo TeH AzN will never post useful content in this game.

Fully support a policy lynch on any of the three, in pretty much reverse order: Elmo > kdowns > Benmage.

VOTE: Elmo TeH AzN

Before the inevitable, nope, no scumreads strong enough to override my desire to see those three gone.

[Magua]

Can we agree on a kdowns lynch? It's easy to get reads on the people who aren't reck, fate and tierce right now. Not that hard to do, and here he is focusing on them mostly for no real reason despite the fact that he has school and shit, like it'll really help

Fully support a policy lynch on any of the three, in pretty much reverse order: Elmo > kdowns > Benmage.

VOTE: kdowns

And kdowns why are you surprised by that mechanic based on what the game was originally based on. That just rubs me the wrong way here.

By "rubs me the wrong way," do you think kdowns' Always On bit is scummy (as opposed to just dumb)?

[Magua]

Yeppppp Magua is scum.

Magua ( 0 )

Not Voting ( 7 ) Amrun* Elmo Teh AzN*

kdowns*

Guy_Named_Riggs kanyeknowsbest Magua hitogoroshi*

And I am tickled by the rush of a policy lynch on me.

Do you think BBmolla and Matias are scum as well?

[Magua]

Hey. kdowns. A question:

Do you think BBmolla and Matias are scum as well?

[Magua]

@Magua...if you do believe it's out of character, does that make him more scum than town in your eyes (policy lynch aside)? In any case, Benmage has posted read lists like that before, so whether or not it's actually out of character is questionable.

Keep this in mind: I am already predisposed to lynch Benmage because he's a godawful anchor even when he's Town.

That said, *I* haven't seen him do it, and given that even he says it's useless, I do find it scummy enough to mention. Benmage, as far as I have seen, plays in a shoot-from-the-hip-reaction-test-the-shit-out-of-everyone manner[1], and posting a reads list is the opposite of that. Reads more as a way of trying to stay consistent with reads.

Putting Benmage last on my "want to policy lynch list" is solely because I know he will play the game, whereas I have serious doubts about Elmo and kdowns.

@Reckoner & Fate:

You two should talk about Elmo.

---

Don't like Tierce's latest posts. Reads way too defensive, to Elmo, of all people. Want more Tierce reads on other people, less "omg how can you think I'm scum".

Do like DeasVail.

Also like hitogoroshi.

@CES:

Example of Johhog looking scummy please. Pretty sure my only game with him was Cyclic x02 (truncated by Tiger incursion), where he was pretty strongly townread by everyone.

[1] Fully believe that his "guys I haven't read the thread what's this about out-of-thread communication" is exactly this.

[Magua]

Tierce, I admit that I'm just skimming through your posts, but as far as I can tell, your plan is thusly:

- If CES dies, he can replace back in.
- CES has to play to win with his new alignment.
- Hey, if CES is scum and replaces back in as town, that means he'll tell us who all his partners are!

Do I have that right? I'm hoping I don't, because that seems like a terrible plan that I cannot in any good way imagine zoraster putting into his game. Even were everything you said to be exactly true, I as a mod would instantly make CES' slot into a traitor that didn't know the scumteam were he to roll scum.

(Really, really, really, really, really, really wish people would stop just trying to make up obvious shit to reaction test with.)

[Magua]

Alignment was rolled independently from Award roles.

Alignment is independent from awards, which is why the awards are *not* curbstomping powers. You're saying, OTOH, that yours'/CES' *could* be a curb stomping power that takes everything ever said about why the Saulus is a godawful role and had zoraster say, whelp, let's give it a shot.

No.

I'm not buying it.

If he is a Traitor, lynching CES is still hardly a bad choice, non?

What sort of fucked up logic is this? This same logic applies to *everyone* regardless of award.

I admit that the reluctance coming from someone who was supporting policy lynches on several players is rather jarring, as in the worst case scenario (CES is Town) we can eliminate one of those players instead.

Tierce. Do you think CES is policy lynch worthy?

[Magua]

You can have him replace into Elmo's or kdown's slot?

[Magua]

Well, now. That's different.

(I mean, it's not going to work in terms of outting the entire scumteam. But still on board to replace Elmo or kdowns.)

[Magua]

UNVOTE: kdowns
VOTE: Cogito Ergo Sum

[Magua]

*snores*

The sooner you're out of the game, the happier I will be. And I say this with complete knowledge that Benmage and Fate are also both in this game. So that's really an achievement on your part.

Congrats!

[Magua]

Also, kdowns, let's see how many times you can ignore me asking a goddamn simple question, shall we? Current high score is only 2, but I have every faith you can do so much better.

Hey. kdowns. A question:

Do you think BBmolla and Matias are scum as well?

[Magua]

Is this a reference to the reads list or this quote? If it's this quote I meant that LLD's chances of lynching a player like yourself D1 would seem a daunting challenge, no? I surely NEVER expect myself lynched D1 ever, yet every D1 someone has to go.... Hence also why it's futile to pursue obvscumMagua at this point.

Hey. Benmage. Hey.

Have you noticed that you're voting the person who I started out voting?

How does that make you feel?

[Magua]

There is no way, no how that kdowns has just dayvigged me.

Come *on*.

Reck/Fate's "Fate is scum guiz he claimed to me" was fine, but this level of herpaderp has just gone over the bloody edge. Only thing left is for Ludi to show up and claim to be a daycop with a guilty on someone.

You want to wait for mod confirmation before lynching, that's fine, but there's literally no reason to hold off on commenting.

[Magua]

Im

reading

this Tierce thing... why did she claim?

This word...I do not think it means what you think it means.

Or else you would know why.

Cause you would've read it.

Is the joke.

[Magua]

Shock.

[Magua]

Sadly, I find it more likely that he's town, under the "sheer stupidity is town" principle.

Still want him gone.

---

I already pointed that out to him in 377. Do not believe he's actually reading the thread.

[Magua]

Reading. It's not just for breakfast anymore.

[Magua]

hito, Johhog is agreeing with you (both saying, "There's no way, no how that CES-scum can sell out the entire scumteam.")

The only person who thinks its possible that CES can sell out his scumteam is Tierce, and I can't tell if it's genuine or derp.

That said, I think it's pretty confirmed that Tierce *can* cause CES to replace back in, and let me tell you how much I'd rather have CES in kdowns' slot than kdowns.

[Magua]

The opening page said 5 scum, not including a possible traitor.

This game has the following:
14 Town
5 Mafia

(including any traitors)

1 Double Day SK

You can always replace out.

[Magua]

@hitogoroshi:

But no one thinks that CES could sell out the scumteam outside of Tierce. I immediately dispensed with the idea, as did you. Johhog did too, just not in the same site meta way that we did. ie, I do not think that you need to convince Johhog (or anyone aside from Tierce) that you are right.

CES may not be transparent, but he's leaps and bounds above Elmo and kdowns. But you're right that part of going for CES is just variety -- if I'm content with policy lynching (as I am), then it makes no statistical difference whether I lynch eg Elmo or lynch CES and have CES replace Elmo. It's just the novelty of it all.

@BBmolla:

You're a dear, but you're not even in the top 5 of people who need to get replaced. As for Benmage, no, its not alignment specific. He's just an anchor.

[Magua]

Kanye's response is really scummy if CES is a traitor. Or even if the scum know a traitor exists.

Not seeing this, and kanye is one of my stronger townreads at the moment. Do explain.

[Magua]

So, starting from the point of "If CES is scum he has to be SK/traitor/not have access to the Maf QT"...if kanye were scum, why would he be annoyed?

[Magua]

Just...just...

Wha...

k.

How can singer's vote be a late sheep attempt when there were no votes on you when she voted?

For Tierce, you say: "Tierce wagon looks good but what Magua pointed out raises questions as well. VOTE: Tierce"

By "Tierce wagon looks good", I assume you think Tierce is scum. y/n? I mean, you then vote Tierce.
So what did I point out that raised questions, and what questions did it raise?

[Magua]

What I'm confused about is why Magua would rather lynch CES and have him replace Elmo/kdowns than actually lynching kdowns/Elmo themselves. I don't think it makes any sense from his perspective. I know he said something about novelty, but it just seems like the worse option to me, especially if CES is unlikely to be part of the main scumteam.

Push on kdowns/Elmo was policy lynch, not because of any scumread on the slots. So it didn't matter to my overmuch which slot got lynched. eg, lynch kdowns v lynch CES who replaced kdowns work out to the same endpoint.

Agree that CES if Mafia has to be a traitor role, but didn't (and don't) think of that as a super negative in this sense: CES-traitor would still be able to give information from traitor role PM, such as whether he was recruitable, seeker, had a fakeclaim, etc. But, TBH, did not spend too long thinking that part through.

---

@Tierce:

Turn it around. Why do *you* think Fate is trying to push it? What's the scum motivation for trying to paint you with something that is disproven by the mod in the OP?

[Magua]

Why is he a strong townread?

His 340 and the two-level thought put into it (not just the "Reck and Fate are fucking around with a reaction test", but the followup of "And Tierce is in on it").

[Magua]

kanye u no wats totes cool? voting son

[Magua]

Yeesh the douchebag police are out in full force this game. Screw actual thought, lets nitpick!!!

Yayayay typo... well than it should confirm CES town. More or less... but again, why did Tierce feel the need to claim?

unvote vote Tierce

So, let's go for actual thought!

You think Tierce's claim confirms CES as town. y/n?

[Magua]

HOLY SHIT BENMAGE

If I hadn't seen you be this bad as Town in ASOIAF I'd be all over lynching you.

So ok.

Let's go for actual thought part two (as you ignored my 629, but whatever, more trouble than it's worth at this point.)

Tierce and CES have a combined award that allows Tierce to force-replace CES back into the game after he dies.

That's what's being claimed. All paranoia aside at the moment, let's look at the supporting evidence here.

- The mod says you can be force replaced in this game in the OP.
- It seems like the sort of thing that would fit "Smooth Operator" and "Best Replacement" awards.

From this, you have somehow divined that perhaps it is all a MAGICAL MAFIA PLOY to RECRUIT A TRAITOR INTO THE MAFIA!

HOLY SHIT! LET"S....wait...what was the words again? Oh, yes....LET'S APPLY LOGICAL THOUGHT!

No, no, bear with me.

k.

Let's assume you're actually right about the "evil mafia plan" bit. You're not, but let's just assume.

So, how does this plan work in your world? CES has to die. When he dies, his award role will get flipped (this is mod confirmed). Tierce then has the ability to force replace him back into the game (not mod confirmed, but, judging by the evidence 99.999% liekly). That's what it is. A replacement. Like, zoraster saying, "Cogito Ergo Sum replaces Magua effective immediately," wherein he is given my Role PM and takes over for my slot and I am no longer playing the game BUT HE IS NOW MY ROLE. There is no magic traitor recruitment possible here.

IF THERE'S ANY REVIVER SHENANIGANS OMG COGITO COMES BACK VIA ANYTHING OTHER THAN A STRAIGHT UP REPLACEMENT, THEN TIERCE IS CAUGHT IN A BALDFACED LIE AND GETS LYNCHED. WHICH IS WHY THAT SHIT ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN.

The absolute, positive worst-for-the-Town thing that Tierce-scum can do with this is to get CES-town lynched, and then replace a player who is bad for the scumteam (like kdowns or Elmo) with CES. That's pretty much literally the worst possible outcome of all possible outcomes. It doesn't make an "extra" scum slot. Still the same amount of scum before and after.

Holy shit, Jesus, I feel dumber for having to have typed that.

If you think Tierce is scum, fine, vote her. But for the love of all that is holy, let's keep our paranoid delusions in the realm of the vaguely possible here. The CES replacement mechanic will work exactly as Tierce described it, and, here's the important bit, since it'll be flipped when/if CES dies, *we'll know it works exactly as Tierce described it because if it doesn't she'll be outted and where, exactly, is the scum motivation in lying about how something that is going to become public knowledge works?*

[Magua]

tl,dr: Tierce could be scum who's trying to appear town by pushing a plan that even in the best case for Town, is not of particular detriment to scum. Yes. I get this.

However, Tierce is not lying about how the award works nor is any bastard modding involved.

[Magua]

magua's vote is lousy + shows a lack of real effort to be inquisitive which follows thru his whole posting.

Did you just scan through zoraster's vote counts without actually reading the posts? Srs question.

[Magua]

I still don't get why Tierce claimed, or how she thought they'd shoot who CES replaces N1 without knowing who Tierce was selecting.

But I digress, I'll reread this last few pages under a better lens.

I assume the force replacement happens immediately; it's not a Night action. So if CES were to be lynched, and it's now N1, and Tierce invokes the ability, then CES will replace back in immediately, not at the start of the next Day. And so the Mafia can shoot him that Night.

So Tierce says, "Hey, if CES flips Mafia, protect me, then I can replace him in D2 when he can't be shot."

But that protection would only be necessary if CES did in fact flip Mafia, which isn't going to happen, rendering the whole thing supermoot.

[Magua]

Hey. CES. Hey.

Why lynch Fate?

[Magua]

Lessee.

The Party

Boat

Group:

Reck, Fate, hitogoroshi, LLD, singersigner: Not interested in lynching any of them D1. Believe the majority is town, and believe they'll be able to get better reads on each other via party. In essence, shelving this off on other people for now. Hooray.

Elmo TeH AzN, kdowns, Guy Named Riggs, Amrun, petapan:

Should replace out. Or die. But the sad fact is that there's too many to lynch and they can't all be scum, so. Sadface. But, no, seriously, replace out. For once I agree with Benmage. This is a quarter of the game that's contributed less than 5% of the posts, and of those at least half the posts are "I'll post later" or other contentless fluff. I'm still up for lynching Elmo or kdowns, less so for GNR or petapan, not up for lynching Amrun as I actually do expect her to replace out.

BBmolla, kanyeknowsbest, Matias, DeasVail:

Hi, I think you're town. Good on you.

Leaves Benmage, Cogito Ergo Sum, Johhog, nachomamma8, and Tierce.

Benmage is Benmage. Normally I'd want him vigged tonight or something, but the sad truth is that there's actually too many other people who need to be vigged before him. His responses to things have been delayed / garbled enough to make any read on him impossible for me (eg, Tierce/CES first pops up Sunday night, Benmage reads about it Monday morning and only has "Why'd you claim", doesn't begin the "It's all a scumtrap" bit until Monday evening, things go downhill from there.) Finding it annoying that the focus of so many of his posts are on things that are just completely wrong, but meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh. I really want him to be scum. Really really really really really. But that does not make him scum.

CES is bleh. Scumreading Fate for tunneling on someone (Tierce) is bleh. Tunneling on Fate for tunneling on Tierce is superblah. Just, a supreme lack of effort.

Johhog. Big thing is his "Elmo sucks, but I won't vote him" / "Magz you could persuade me to vote Elmo" bit. It just seems too...tidy. I don't like going for obv slips because scum try not to obv slip so it's so much more often Town that are being dumb, but this bites me in the ass from time to time (eg, Hunterxhunter Mafia). So. Don't want to lynch Johhog at the moment

but setting up a way to backpedal to lynch him if it becomes convenient

.

nachomamma: You know what, nacho didn't have much of an impression on me, but when I reviewed his ISO while I struggled to find something to say about him, I actually really liked most of his posts. Except for his flipflop on Tierce, which I don't get ("Tierce is 90% to be scum" in 494, "Here's a bunch of scummy things Tierce did but she's not as scummy to me now" in 497, "Tierce is more clearly town" in 636) that keeps me from putting him in the Town pile.

Tierce: The main point about Tierce is that I don't like her overall defensiveness ("Why are you voting me?" vs "You should vote X"). CES replacement plan seemed off at the time (which is why I reacted so negatively to it), and doesn't full gel from what Tierce's POV should be (eg, try to determine if CES is Mafia first, then get him lynched if so, instead it's all "If CES is scum town wins, let's lynch him!" coupled with "OMG SCUMZ R SCARED" which really, really, really felt off). I mean, it's one thing to be saying, "No idea who's scum, let's policy lynch someone" (which is, admittedly, what I've done so far) and so then say "Well, if we're policy lynching may as well see what's up with CES", but from Tierce's POV where she already thinks someone is scum (Fate), suddenly switching to CES just seems...unproductive.

UNVOTE: CES
VOTE: Tierce

[Magua]

Matias, why does Elmo qualify for "I'm happy for him to be replaced" but kdowns doesn't? Between just the two of them, I find kdowns to be townier than Elmo, tbqh.

Under which criteria do you not want to lynch Tierce?

[Magua]

As far as tierce is concerned, as of that huge discussion, she's a town read to me, as well as the fact that she has that role and I'm not comfortable messing with that right now. Basically, any of CES/Tierce, the party, or peta's investigation blocking role are all things I'm not willing to entertain a lynch on right now. We have no solid flips or mod confirmed information to go off of right now. From D2 on, I'd be fine with looking into this stuff or the people with these roles further.

I think this (I won't consider lynching someone with an individual award D1) is an extraordinarily bad train of thought.

---

@Johhog:

Why do you think CES is town?

[Magua]

We have a week before deadline. There's no super time rush.

I agree that lynching someone *because* of their award role is dumb. However, to the best of my knowledge, no one is actually doing this (Benmage was all "OMG Tierce should be lynched before she makes a new scum member!" but a) Benmage b) he wanted to lynch Tierce beforehand anyway.)

But saying, eg, "I won't lynch petapan D1 because he's got an award role that makes him investigation immune" is similarly dumb.

[Magua]

I don't understand where you think she's coming from as scum.

Defensiveness as opposed to scumhunting.

"Let's lynch CES and blow this game open if he's scum" just felt to me like an act rather than a solid plan. Or, to put it another way, to someone trying to play to their town meta rather than actually being their town meta.

[Magua]

@Nacho:

Why did Tierce turn from 90% scum to town in your eyes?

What scum motivation does she have for this though? To just out this right away in the middle of nowhere and risk getting lynched herself for a lie?

This is what I was talking about.

I don't think it's a lie. I think Smooth Operator / Best Replacement function exactly as Tierce said they do.

It's the plan, and how the plan was brought up, that I don't like. It didn't feel real to me. It felt like someone trying to pretend to be super-Town rather than someone actually being super-Town. The scum motivation would be towncred, in this case.

PEdit: If you believe that Tierce is town, and you believe that breaking the setup is possible, then why are you not voting CES?

[Magua]

Also I see your point on Tierce, but still do not agree.

The entire point of Tierce's plan was that it was a 25% chance of nabbing the entire scumteam.

Now, some people (Fate, Benmage) think that Tierce is scum. And some people (myself, hitogoroshi, Johhog) said there's no way the game is breakable that way.

But if you believe Tierce is town and you believe that the game is breakable that way, why would you not go for it?

Super serious question.

---

As for the ill ease at Tierce's plan: the big flag is there's no push on her side to try to feel out if CES is scum beforehand. He's mentioned but never questioned or probed. The plan itself I feel is deeply flawed, and feel that Tierce has more than enough site meta and setup meta to have reached the same conclusion that hito and I did. It just really feels like Tierce jumping up and down with a sign that says "Look how protown I am!"

[Magua]

Matias.

CES being a traitor if he's scum is why myself, hito, etc, think that the plan is DOA.

Look back on Tierce's posts Sunday night / Monday morning. All "scum r scared" and "guiz, game breaking plan here." If your initial response to the plan is, "Were CES to be mafia, he'd be a traitor / not know his buddies / etc," then it is hard to believe that Tierce would not have had that exact same reaction. But she didn't. That's what makes it feel fake.

[Magua]

That's why I'm voting for her.

No clue on why Elmo is voting for her, and that tbqh that's disturbing.

Benmage and Fate are tunneling the everloving shit out of her for the lulz.

---

PEdit: The scummy things are the plan and the way it was presented, as discussed on this page ad nauseum, and that a lot of her posts are overly defensive without scumhunting (especially in regards to Fate).

---

PEdit2: Fate, as long as you're here, posting something other than "Tierce is scum" would be great. Your reads on hito, Reck, LLD, and signer would be supergreat.

To be fair, I was reading you and Reck as scum because of "Fate claimed scum to me outside the thread, lynch 'em!", until Reck came clean about it being a lolgambit.

[Magua]

Your points against Tierce seem very theoretical, Magua. Your point about reading me is dumb because Tierce wouldn't expect to be able to read me (doubly true D1 in a large) and your explanation of why she'd suggest it as scum seems cartoonish rather than a fleshed out idea.

I do not believe it gets any *less* theoretical than "her posts feel fake."

Thinking that scum would propose a plan that doesn't benefit Town under the pretense that it does benefit Town also doesn't seem cartoonish, it seems...well, standard operating procedure. From my own personal experience as scum in War in Heaven III, I know that posting a plan that doesn't really help town is a great cover for actually not doing anything of value for the town...because that's what I did.

So, turning it around: Do you think getting yourself lynched today, CES? Do you think Tierce-town would think lynching you today would be a good move?

@Fate:

Reads on party people pl0x.

By the way Magua I was hoping you'd say something about why Tierce didn't claim it early in the day (despite her being sick), because that's the glaring thing that I'm seeing now, especially in the context of how severe claiming to break the setup Day 1 really is

Eh, that part doesn't really bother me too much -- it's not like she waited until 2 days left till deadline or anything. Just reads null. Would've read better, again, if she had tried to do anything regarding CES in the meantime.

[Magua]

EBWOP: "Do you think getting yourself lynched today, CES?" => "Do you think getting yourself lynched today is a good move, CES?"

[Magua]

I don't think this point is particularly amazing.

What about, oh, dunno, the rest of the last 2-3 pages?

You disagree with that point. What about the general idea of "Tierce is scum"? What about the idea of "Tierce is town"?

What about Elmo or kdowns?

Jiminy.

---

@Nacho:

Operating theory is that she did it uncaring about whether it would work or not. If it worked, great (OT being CES not on her team), and if it didn't work, it still generated activity on her part.

Concerned about your dismissal that scum would come up with a plan that's not workable (CES raised this same objection). I did it in War in Heaven III. hitogoroshi did it in Mafia Metamafia. Can't speak to Hito's motives, but in my case it was a cover to appear helpful without actually being helpful. (Come to think of it, I did the same thing in Metropolis by "managing" the vote counts. Let me have the appearance of posting and being active in the game without actually having to bother with giving reads.)

[Magua]

This is a Tierce-specific thought. If she doesn't give reads and use this as an excuse to lurk, then sure I'll powerlynch her in a second. But I don't think the plan is scum-motivated as of yet.

So what reads has she given in the ~60 hours since posting her plan?

[Magua]

hito, remember when in Mafia Metamafia when you tried to get a domain-claim going on?

I classify this as similar.

[Magua]

So I'm town lying. Way to admit you have no clue what you're doing.

You lie as town *all the time*.

[Magua]

Hey. Petapan. Hey.

Let's play a game. K?

Tell me why you think I was voting ces.

[Magua]

*snores*

@singer:

$10 says: Petapan read the last few pages, and ISO'd the vote counts before that. He was all, "Magua votes CES, then votes Tierce!" and places his vote. Maybe he read some of my posts in ISO, but I doubt it from the links he gave to my posts -- pretty certain he just skimmed through looking for whatever trigger words, didn't see them, didn't read.

---

Benmage is Benmage. CES is CES. No clue what Reckoner is trying to do.

[Magua]

Also, do not find Amrun's replacement out a towntell. There were votes on her even when she wasn't posting, and lurking/a repeat of Balto would've exacerbated that.

Don't find it scummy like Benmage does. Pretty much looking at Ferei to give the slot a read.

[Magua]

@Mod:

It's been 24 hours since kdowns' prod. Replace pl0x.

[Magua]

@Mod:

It's been 24 hours since

kdowns

Guy Named Rigg's prod. Replace pl0x.

[Magua]

Magua, 812 is more hostile than I'd expect. You read me as town, so you can't be that frustrated over lack of readability on my part. The hostility itself probably indicates that you're not interested in having my opinion influence yours, so I'm just confused. Please know that this is not, 'boo hoo, Magua is being a meanie!' The hostility is only very slight (I can't think of a better word), and I don't really care about that. It just feels off to me.

I can be incredibly frustrated over the lack of readability of people, even if -- no, especially if -- I think they are town. There was a good 3 pages of discussion about Tierce being town or Tierce being scum, and you make a one line throwaway post about how you think one thing isn't amazing.

Not even "This is scummy" -- your response is "this isn't amazing."

But, 812 wasn't hostile (unless you count "Jiminy" as being hostile, in which case,

you're a moron

oops, that was hostile). 812 WAS ME ASKING YOU FOR YOUR OPINION ON TIERCE. Why, I am now forced to ask, would I ask you your opinion on Tierce if I was not interested in your opinion?

Alternative reading of the above: Be defensive less, give opinion on Tierce more. (I know you give your opinion in 979. But I am at a loss as to how you could read 812 and come to the conclusion that I don't want your opinion when I was *specifically asking for it*.)

---

Followup question, DeasVail: You mention Tierce's award role as a reason not to lynch her. Then you vote kanye. kanye has an award role. Pray explain the difference. I mean, you don't even give a reason for the kanye vote, so it doesn't seem like "Well he's my biggest scumread." You specifically mention me, but don't vote me. So. (I see you vote me later. Still want to know why you were voting kanye here.)

no fuck off with your condescending horseshit you smug prick

Oh, we're going to get along *fabulously*.

your initial response to tierce is along the lines of "i do not believe your claim", which, okay, shows some kind of suspicion but clearly you then decide to follow along with it and vote CES anyway because "hey i want to replace elmo or kdowns" when that is FUCKING STUPID and if you were town and actually thinking that tierce is your scumread then CES is probably town and there's a chance those others guys aren't. i don't see the read on tierce develop at all, all your reasons are stuff that was there when you initially voted. sort of like how you sitting on weak policy lynches for day 1 doesn't show me you're doing a damn thing to advance this game

I sat on policy lynches until I actually had a suspect, that being Tierce. Alternatives would've been not voting at all, or voting randomly.

To go into more detail, the thought process was as so:

1. Sunday night: Tierce outlines plan
2. Monday morning: I react negatively because I do not think Tierce's plan is thought out
3. Monday morning: Tierce argues, essentially, that lynching CES and having him replace kdowns or Elmo is equivalent to policy lynching, which is what I'm currently doing with my vote at the time.
4. Monday morning: Since I'm policy lynching with my vote anyway, I figure, "what the fuck" and I switch to CES to see what'll happen. This shows in some of my posts with hito at the time.
5. Monday night: You come in and say, "lol Magz ur votes r dumb". This by itself is fine, since I'm aware that my votes are dumb, but you add in "shows a lack of real effort to be inquisitive" when my whole damn ISO is me

being a condescending prick

being inquisitive, which is what I call you on.
6. Wednesday morning: I finally do a reread of Friday-Wednesday and this is when my scumread on Tierce solidifies and I vote her.

He feels distant and mechanical + when it comes to his stance on Tierce, it feels like he's thinking through Tiercetown scenarios properly much more than he's thinking through Tiercescum scenarios.

I'd really like to know what you mean here, because I feel as my thought processes this is something I should've been let in on.

I think CES is scum because of his incompatible stances.

Look, as much as I don't like Cogito Ergo Sum as a person, he's obviously just button-pushing/reaction-testing with his votes. That's not scummy. (I see Tierce already replied about this, but I leave it cuz lazy.)

You also say that hitogoroshi dropped down from town to null. Why was that?

---

Stuff stuff stuff.


Fate's super goddamn annoying, but I have a strong respect for the Always On mechanic as a scumhunting tool, and I am willing to acquiesce to their communal read on Fate.

Tierce voting Feirei is not a scumtell on Tierce's part. Is either a legitimate anger reaction or attempting to replicate one. Tierce is still my strongest scumread, but I had this same sort of reaction to Elmo and kdowns, so. Feels.

Think Zdenek is town. Which is fun, because he's super paranoid as town. But finding him to be so much better than Guy Named Riggs that it's passed not even being funny and looped back around to funny.

Oversoul is probably town. Under the "jumping into game and placing lolvote on largest wagon D1 is too ballsy for Oversoul-scum" to do. Also lingering townread from kdowns being a wreck.

Feirei still null. Did not like the first wallpost so far. Agree with Matias that a Zdenek-style overview of reactions is better than quote striping, especially when the quotes are larger/longer than the reaction. Do want to see actual stances from Feirei regarding who is town/scum, sooner rather than later.

Also, Feirei's a him, not a her.

[Magua]

Tierce-town.
Fate-town.
Reck-SUPERULTRATOWN

You're aware that Fate/Reck think Tierce is scum, and Tierce thnks Fate is scum, yes? Because you don't seem that concerned about it.

It's very clear. Just search for Hito in my ISO. Also, he's not in that position anymore.

I think this is scum-magua trying to get me to make a case against Hito.

It's not clear. I just see "hito and singer dropped from town to null." I know he doesn't stay in that position; I want to know what triggered you saying that in your wall.

---

As for Elmo.

I'm happy with a policy lynch on a slot that's useless. But Elmo is getting ACTIVELY REPLACED. The fact that everyone was all lol before about Elmo, kdowns, etc, but now is all "omg welp lets lynch Elmo" is just wtf.

We've got three days, and I want to see what a replacement in the slot says.

[Magua]

I swear Magua, the things that Hito did that I didn't like are clearly noted, but I'm not bringing them up again because there is no way that I would lynch him today.

Magua: Zdenek, I don't understand this thing in your post. Help me understand.
Zdenek: LOL nope.jpg

[Magua]

@Magua...I've already said I think it's TvT. Like, I'm beyond disinterested in it or trying to convince them otherwise. I told Reck I'd look more closely to the first argument, but I never did and the succeeding ones haven't convinced me that was a bad decision.

You can reference the last game I played to see what happened with TvTvT happened.

Do you think Elmo is scum, or is this just policy lynch time?

Unvote
Vote: Magua

Magua: Zdenek, I don't understand this thing in your post. Help me understand.
Zdenek: LOL nope.jpg
Magua: k, I'll be a pretentious prick to point out that you're not helping me understand your post, because I'd like to understand
Zdenek: vote Magua

[Magua]

What if I claim a daycop guilty on him?

Oh shit. I better pre-emptively daycop guilty you first.

---

CES, you think Fate is scum and fooling everyone else in the Party. You think Reckoner is...misguided town, I suppose?...who is townreading your scumread hard.

I'm all for the reaction test and button pushing and all, but something more than "Tierce is town", "

Fate

Magua is scum" would be appreciated. I'm not holding out hope for usefulness, but some insight into your dazzling intellect would just shed so much light on my dark world.

For instance, fine, you think Fate is so skilled at F2F mafia that for him to mislead Reck is child's play. But Reck has to be just as skilled at F2F mafia as Fate, if not moreso, yet you disregard this. Why?

And why are you so quick to discount Fate-town but so quick to read Tierce-town? Your Tierce read just seems like lolread that you're just pushing for reaction, so, y'know, some actual reads you actually believe in would be nice.

At some point.

[Magua]

Why are you connecting those reads and why is there a "but" in that question? Surely establishing reads quickly would be a general pattern.

The 'but' is you saying that Fate is a super-scum player who can evade being found out while at the same time townreading the fuck out of Tierce for pretty much no reason that I can see. If you're of the opinion that experienced players can easily appear town then I'd expect either more reasoning for a Tierce townread or less wholeheartedness of it.

[Magua]

Well, hell, CES, I'm a downright terrible scum player. If that's what it takes, you should be townreading the shit out of me!

[Magua]

Hence why I caught you D1, duh.

That would require me to actually be scum.

But since I'm town, and terrible as scum, by extension you should be townreading the fuck out of me, so now I'm curious as to why you're not.

[Magua]

Johhog, the real question is: You're voting Elmo as a policy lynch. It's almost 50 pages into the game. Do you seriously have no scumreads?

[Magua]

Have you tried ISOing me and searching for Hito's name?

If not, do that, then go and read Magua's posts directed at me about my Hito read.

Then realize that Magua is just wasting time on BS and vote him.

Don't ask him why again, Matias. He may vote you.

WooooOOOOoooooOOOOOooooo

[Magua]

I'm a strong believer in town!tierce

If you and singer could sit down and have a big ol' come to Jesus talk with Fate and Reck, that'd be great.

It really feels like y'all are not talking a lot over in Party land and that makes me sadface.

[Magua]

Two days to deadline, very much wanting to hear your thoughts, Bulbazak.

[Magua]

Johhog, the real question is: You're voting Elmo as a policy lynch. It's almost 50 pages into the game. Do you seriously have no scumreads?

[Magua]

Elmo's posts were shit and Bulbazak made me realized that something has been wierd about Kanye.

Bulbazak said "Kanye is scum."

What's the revelation that this inspired in you?

---

Need to digest the recent Tierce posts. Initial impression is do not want, but I just got in and skimmed them. Need to reread last two pages.

[Magua]

Oh, boy. That was fun! Let's see. Easy stuff first.

Point the first: BBmolla is terrible, needs to stop being terrible. Or to put it another way: BBmolla stop being stupid

Tierce addressed this already in a nicer way than I ever would, but I feel the need to pile on. I think Fate is town, I think you're wrong about him being scum, but saying "I can't vote Fate because I'll get yelled at" is just...just...well. Something or other.

---

the fact that my walls are always weak are because of this. it's also the reason why I HATE WALLS.

Then don't post walls. Don't say you'll post walls if you know ahead of time they'll be useless. Give reads and whatever reasoning. Neither need nor want quote striping noise.

---

@Johhog:

Nice of you to vote me. Now can you go back and answer this question:

Johhog, the real question is: You're voting Elmo as a policy lynch. It's almost 50 pages into the game. Do you seriously have no scumreads?

Also, want to note that I really liked this bit:

Magua on the other hand... I think he's afraid to challenge other players, perhaps out of fear that they would find him scummy, so he takes the easy ways out.

Spoiler: Response

So in addition to the above question, show me somewhere you think I've been afraid to challenge someone.

---

So, Tierce.

My problem your posts of the last 3 pages is that you start with, "I'm not afraid of being lynched, Fate is scum," to "I'll vote Feirei," to "Magua is the best of the viable counterwagons."

Feirei doesn't fit in there. Honestly not even sure why you voted him; doesn't seem to fit either a town or scum mindset, because the lynch was near non-viable from the start. Trial balloon is the best I can think of, but that's admittedly biased by me already thinking you're scum.

But for the vote on me, it's not that you actually think I'm scum, just that you think I'm scummier than Johhog. That's fine, ostensibly, but seems off in two ways:

I don't like how the wagon is building out of failed momentum to lynch me.

1. This doesn't make sense, because the Johhog wagon is composed almost entirely of people who aren't comfortable lynching you to begin with (Mattias being the only one who's voted you, and that was temporary over the Feirei vote).

Matias--You're saying that Magua is an easier lynch than Bulbazak or Feirei.

Dead serious question: Are you drunk? Have you LOOKED at player skill between them?

2. It's at odds with your posturing in 1273 and thereabouts.

In point of fact, you are voting me exactly because you think I'm an easier lynch than Bulbazak or Feirei. You've flat out admitted as much with Feirei.

(And player skill obviously isn't relevant to avoiding the lynch here, since 2/3 of the main wagons are you and I.)

These both make me feel that your postings are a lot more survival oriented than you are trying to claim they are. That is, you think Fate is scum and push Fate as scum for the majority of the Day, but don't deal with or integrate any evidence to the contrary (ie, you think Reck is town, and so by extension think his Fate townread is wrong, but 1138 doesn't even get a mention from you; nor do I see any posts attempting to either convince Reck of your position or yours of Reck's. More tellingly, there's no interaction with singer, Hito, or LLD about Fate, or any consideration of the fact that all of them are townreading Fate).

So.

[Magua]

MOD

Can we get at least a 48 hour extension? We've had several recent replacements, and are still searching for 1... With the deadline so close?
*People echo this please.

Post your doc.

[Magua]

Do you think Tierce's Feirei vote isn't awkward?

Alternatively: What other votes feel awkward to you?

[Magua]

So Feirei (Johhog), kanyeknowsbest (Johhog), Tierce (Feirei and me), Matias (Johhog), BBmolla (Johhog), and Johhog (me).

Why would you think Tierce's vote on me is awkward? (For that matter, why would you think Johhog's vote on me is awkward?)

[Magua]

Post your doc.

[Magua]

Then stop being stupid in what way? The way that I don't follow through with my reads, or the way I'm reading Fate as scum?

Not following through with your reads.

Being there with your opinion >>>>>> not doing anything >>>>>> not doing anything and whining about it.

[Magua]

Magua's play seems so safe. Like, there is no faulty logic anywhere, but there isn't really a lot of places to be faulty. Most of his posts are responses, or agreeing with universal townreads, or scumreading Tierce.

kanye town, DeasVail town.

Annoying people who are all "lets lynch lurkers when they're being replaced."

[Magua]

Better question is, what does Magua-town make Tierce?

[Magua]

kanye and DeasVail are not near-universal townreads, so I was showing counterexamples to your claim.

Also, whilst on the subject, I challenge you to find a read in Tierce's ISO other than "Fate scum, Reck town, Johhog town, Magua isn't that scummy but is viable"

[Magua]

The "what does Magua-town make Tierce" question was because of your "Magua-scum makes Benmage town."

So, assume I'm a competent player. For sake of argument.

When I flip Town, so that you can go back and read my posts and understand that I actually believe every goddamn word that I said, will that change your opinion of Tierce at all? Or will you be, "Well, Magz is dead, lol whats up guiz?"

[Magua]

And I remember a post that had a few more reads than this, so

So find it.

[Magua]

(Really, though it was directed at BBmolla. Voting me for having "safe reads" is lolwtf but whatever. Voting me for having "safe reads" while having a townread on Tierce is a disconnect that I want resolved.)

[Magua]

The only one I see in there that I missed is hito-Town, and hito is a universal town read.

[Magua]

Oversoul, voting for the person with the largest wagon as soon as you replace in is just not a ballsy thing to do in my opinion (that is, if you're not a newbie). I don't think I've seen you as scum before though, so maybe you're a scaredy-cat when you are? I wouldn't know, but I'd guess not.

Oversoul and Tierce have bad blood between them. His jumping in and purposefully antagonizing Tierce doesn't read as scum to me because it draws too much attention to him at a point where he didn't need to have any attention drawn to him, could've just popped off some reads and then that's it.

You flipping town doesn't somehow make your reads 100% correct.

And don't act like having Tierce as a scumread is somehow risky when you have Reck and Fate both believing she's scum.

Of course being town doesn't make my reads correct, as is obvious from the fact that there must be town voting me. Was hoping for something like "would consider" or "would reread" or "would give it consideration," but we know all of those things are lies. Am refreshed by your honesty that you just wouldn't give a shit nor allow proof of your mistake to make you rethink things. Courageous, that.

As for Fate and Reck, apparently, we're the *only* ones who think that she's scum.

You don't have any opinion on [Feirei's posts] whatsoever?

nope.jpg. They're useless and essentially contentless. As were Amrun's posts. A bunch of quotes with one line replies and a read list with no explanations. Hence requests for more reads, less quotes.

[Tierce] could be putting in a weaker attempt at the game. I've certainly seen it before. And it's certainly not like she hasn't been putting in the effort; my main problem is that her content has been so one dimensional and focused on a bullheaded lynch even though she's mostly gotten backlash for it. I can't figure out why she's doing it, either. She's possibly so completely blinded by this Fate tunnel and doesn't have other suspects (although she still has a trick up her sleeve in the Fate meta tell; why didn't she out that again?), or she's scum and doesn't want to go through the effort of attacking other people. It also confuses me why she expects me to shoot townbeams in a game that she's admitted is difficult and only has one scumread for, but maybe I'm a rare breed of mafia player that can connect the dots like that.

<snip>

Find me a scumgame in Tierce's history of the site that looks like this. Then, when you fail in that venture, acknowledge that to be in scum here she has to be playing literally the best scumgame of her life and probably deserves to live past Day 1. In a sad, sad way.

So, one-dimensional unanalyzed scumread-tunnel on Fate would be the best scumgame of Tierce's life?

Part of me is asking sarcastically, but then part of me is curious if you really hold both of those views or if I wildly misinterpreted something, but I double checked the quotes you're quoting and the things you were responding to were both about Tierce, so.

Unrelated to Tierce, but if fypov Feirei-scum is giggling over a Fate-town vs Tierce-town one-on-one, what's your theory on why would he be so quick and willing to compromise on a Johhog lynch?

Magua's pretty much the only wagon I'll find tolerable at this point, even though I don't have the same faith that I have with a lynch there than I do with a lynch in kanye's direction, bulbazak's direction, maybe even a zdenek lynche and I don't even find him particularly scummy. I find Magua has a surface-scumhunting style that generally throws a bunch of false positives in my face so if people don't wanna lynch obvious scum then hell YEAH I'm gonna lynch Magua.

Kanye is town. Zdenek is (probably) town. Bulbazak pressure and posting somethign worthwhile would be grand, but I don't think it's going to happen this Day, and a last minute wagon on him just seems a huge mistake.

So.

Yeah.

[Magua]

Spoiler alert: Benmage is going to get his own post because Benmage.

Useless and essentially contentless, shitty trajectory, fake reads... the list goes on and on. What makes it a bad lynch?

I actually have a scumread on Tierce, whereas Feirei is very close to a policy lynch.

I understand you think Tierce is town so that this doesn't apply.

Mostly, though, "useless, contentless, fake reads" applies to Feirei,

Bulbazak

, Johhog, petapan/SalmonellaDreams, and sadly, Cogito Ergo Sum. Arguably would apply to kanyeknowsbest, Benmage, singersigner, except that I think that what kanye actually posted is town, Benmage despite having unexplained reads is at least active and so three steps above the others, and on singer I'm trusting The Party.

Does the list of "Feirei,

Bulbazak

, Johhog, SalmonellaDreams, Cogito Ergo Sum" contain scum? Undoubtedly. But there's nothing that makes Feirei stand out in that list, so. Reticence.

What are kanye's reads at the moment?

Johhog scum, me town...meh, so his list of reads is close to nonexistent and that's bad. But. I still think he's town because of his reaction to Fate/Reck, and there's been other instances where his posts have mirrored my thought process. I've also gotten to see him play SK in Arkham Horror 1 and town in Arkham Horror 2 and this feels like 2 to me.

I actually think this lynch will give us the most information.

(I liked your wall, so I removed your name from the useless list.)

Now, what information will you have when I flip Town?

Also, your reasoning for kanye-scum (he was nervous when Tierce claimed) only makes sense if CES is group-scum. You realize this, yes? (This is part of Tierce's behavior that felt fake to me.)

Regarding your party reads, your read on hitogoroshi is 10000% wrong. That aside, you do not seem to be factoring Party reads into your list either, that is, unless the Party is composed of every single scum in the game (which, though lulzy, is not likely), there's Town in there. They're all townreading eachother.

I don't want to harp too much on the Party, but if you read Always On, it's a phenomenally good tool for catching scum. Massive intra-party-townread is something that's got to be taken into account.

Magua, Oversoul is not at all opposed to being antagonizing as scum. He just needs to feel all :RIGHTEOUS: and then feels he has the right to antagonize and insult everyone in all caps regardless of his alignment. (Then again, I'd call that "being scum". I like me some POWERFUL WIZARDRY.)

I do not agree; using Paradox Mafia as an example, it really felt to me that he went out of his way to avoid antagonizing you and Vi.

On Feirei--didn't you say it wasn't a weird vote at the time? What changed?

No, I said it wasn't a scumtell (because I don't see scum motivation behind it). It wasn't a flail move. Still weird as hell, though.

You're right about me not reaching out to hito/LLD/singer. This is, admittedly, mostly frustration. Anything I tell them specifically about Fate will be refuted ten times over on a medium I don't have access to. What's the point? He'll just yell louder. And Reck is locked up in his self-important read on Fate (pot, meet kettle). It'd be like talking to a wall while being mocked in the process. Ain't nobody got time for that.

I feel compelled to repeat that I find this train of thought ("I'm right about Fate and Reck, hito, LLD, and singer are all wrong") to be incredibly...even lacking the proper word. Obtuse? Head in the sand? Same thing I said to Bulbazak up above in this post. It's essentially that I disbelieve that Tierce-town would look at that and say, "Y'know what, screw 'em, they're wrong," *and then focus on Fate-scum for the majority of D1*.

[Magua]

Benmage post!

Not for nothing would townMagua be taking such a nonchalant for being the lead wagon as long as he has been? HELL NO. He'd Be VENOMOUS as hell to all his attackers. Mocking them for not seeing how obvtown he is. This too cool for school attitude is the only scum card he can play.

No. You're simply wrong on my meta.

It's understandable, though. The venom comes out for incompetence and rampant stupidity. Therefore, you have received the venom from me more than anyone else in this thread.

But what I am not is venomous at people who think I'm scum and seem to have a coherent thought process for doing so. Why not? Because they're playing the goddamn game.

Even better is I have evidence.

League of Legends Mafia: The only time I lose it in this thread is when I say that no lynching is terrible, Ankamius *agrees with me* and then votes me. That is the sole and only time I lose it in that game. My twilight post after being lynched is me calling half of the people on my wagon confirmed town.
Storm fo Swords Mafia: The only time I lose it in the thread is when you governed scum in lylo. I spend the complete rest of the Day trying to get Twilight Sparkle lynched and giving all of my reads and poking people. The *only* person I was venomous to was you.
Scummies Mafia: I replace in D1, begin defending Captain Ajax from the lynch. He gets lynched, flips scum. Oops. The only time I lose it in this game is when MagnaofIllusion calls me stupid. Again, that's it. I become the obvious lynch for Day 2 and spend the Day prodding people and posting reads and whatnot.
HunterxHunter Mafia: Town lynches 5 scum in 6 Days, I'm on 0 of the wagons. Unlike the other games, I didn't actually get lynched in this one, but I came close to it. Still, no venom directed at the Town. I get slightly venomous at Monkeyman for just repeatedly saying over and over "Magz is scum" and nothing else, but that's it. When faced with the coherent case of "There's been 4 scum lynches so far and you were on none of them," I agreed.

So, no. I don't get venomous at people who think I'm scum. I don't proclaim myself "obvtown." I *do* get angry at general incompetence, insults to my intelligence, and bad play, but aside from lurking no one's demonstrated any of those behaviors, so no venom.

[Magua]

No, it's not. I would be protecting the fuck out of Feirei if he was town. Unfortunately, there's no way in hell he is. I hope you're not like one of those newbies who believe that you need someone to post a lot to get a strong read on them because that sure as hell isn't the case.

If I had any strong belief in your reads, this would be compelling. But I simply don't.

You say Tierce is obviously town, which I disagree with. You say "If Tierce were scum, she would be playing better," essentially, which is almost exactly the opposite of what I think.

So when it comes to Feirei, someone who I'm completely ambivalent about, your "Feirei is obviously scum" just doesn't do anything for me.

Like, Johhog. I don't put much weight into hito's case for Johhog being scum because he was looking to be persuaded to an Elmo policy lynch. That's pretty weak. But I'm not seeing town in Johhog's responses either -- it's progressed to just a set of one-line responses, basically.

About the most town response Johhog had is when he says he has no interest in lynching Elmo 90 posts after talking about policy lynching Elmo which seems like the exact sort of dissonance a scum would go out of their way to *not* make. But that's it in terms of townreadingness -- the rest of his ISO does not show me any town thought processes. A lot of defensiveness during the brouhaha, and then not really anything of worth. It's really just sort of vague and there.

Who are you?

Feirei is CSL/Bowser.

There are certain players, such as Oversoul, who have reacted to your wagon strangely. Your flip will help me get a read on them.

Thank you for the dictionary definition. *I knew that.* I meant, actually, goddamn specifically, when I flip Town, what information will that give you?

That is, Magua flips town, your read on Oversoul becomes...what?

More importantly to me:

Magua flips town, your read on Tierce becomes...what?

Specifics.

I don't always expect scum to act rationally. Kanye acted strangely when Tierce revealed the information. I took notice.

No. That makes no sense. Assume kanye-scum and CES-not-scum. Tierce says, "OMG GUIZ LETS LYNCH CSL." You think kanye flips out because...why? What *possible* reason would kanye-scum have to flip out? At all?

If your position is "scum do irrational things and town do rational things" then I have no idea of how I'm possibly going to be able to communicate with you.

---

The super

depressing

amusing thing about the wagon on me is that literally, and I mean this literally, 6 of the 7 people on it have said they do not think that I'm scum (CES thinks I'm scum, whilst Tierce, Johhog BBmolla, Bulbazak Zdenek and Nachomamma are all "Well, guiz, I don't think he's scum but I'll vote him anyway because of deadline")

I mean, goddamn seriously.

[Magua]

Bulbazak.

You think my lynch will give the most information.

So far, from what you've said, that information is "Oversoul is slightly more town."

That's not really that much information, you understand.

See, the thing is, I'm trying to understand your thought process. If you're all "Tierce is town and Johhog is town and I can't start another wagon this close to deadline," that would be one thing. Your reads would support that and several people on the wagon are already saying it (including both Tierce and Johhog). But you said my lynch would be informative. So I want to know how it would be informative.

Not this "I would reread, and uh, stuff" bullshit. Asking you to take just 10 minutes out of your busy day and tell me what information you would take from a Magua-townflip.

[Magua]

@Johhog:

The time for claiming is now.

[Magua]

Magua, I have scumreads going out of their way to call you town. I have Oversoul, who I don't have a read on, going out of his way to call you town. Your wagon is making connections with every player in this game, which could help a lot in trying to determine alignment. Your flip will help me get a read on Oversoul. Not to mention the fact that if you flip scum, we'll have enough ammo via associative tells to nail every member of the scum team. All of this on top of the fact that you are the only viable wagon that I don't have some degree of townread on. So, yes, I want you lynched. Happy?

No, not happy.

The question, which I shall now repeat for a third time, is WHAT INFORMATION WILL YOU TAKE AWAY WHEN I FLIP TOWN?

Answer so far: Oversoul slightly townier.

Want better answer. You've got a lot of your scumreads calling me town. So I flip town. WHAT THEN?

[Magua]

It is not a super complicated question.

[Magua]

And before you're all "Magz u dum u gonna flip scum," I pre-emptively absolve you of being held to anything and everything you say if I were to flip anything but Town, so don't even.

[Magua]

It gets harder to lynch them. Their scumminess is not predicated on your slot, just like Tierce's townieness is not predicated on your slot. Quit trying to make that the case.

YOU are the one saying my lynch would be informational.

So I ask what information you will receive when I flip.

If me flipping town doesn't change a goddamn thing for you or your reads, then that is NOT an informational lynch.

[Magua]

You don't shove lynches down level-headed people's head just shouting out blank statements the way Fate's been ranting around. You grab each person by the fucking collar and One by One if you must ask them their individual opinion of said person and why they think they aren't scum, YOU FORCE READS OUT OF THEM... and if your reasoning hasn't convinced them. You move fucking on and hope new evidence (flips vca etc) on future days can help with your lynch.

The lack of awareness of the irony of this statement is amusing.

[Magua]

@Bulbazak:

I feel compelled to break this down into small pieces, so you can tell me where you disagree with me.

You say my lynch would be informational.

I, wanting some clue as to your alignment, do not know whether you are town who truly believes this or scum who is just making an excuse to jump on my wagon.

So I devise an experiment. I can ask you about your thought process on it, in order to ascertain if you truly believe this thing you are saying, or if it is so much bullshit.

So I ask you for more information on this statement you have already made. The theory being, if you can give specific answers it indicates truthful thought process, and if you can't then it indicates bullshit.

Hence. Specifics. "If I flip scum" trains of thought don't need to be followed, because were I to flip scum, that's its own reward right there and the town thought process can stop. Town does not need to say "Their lynch will be informational" on someone they think will flip scum. Town says, "They're scum," or similar. "Informational lynch" is reserved for someone you think is going to flip town. So we're keeping to the Magua-town case. It's a) the truth, and b) cleaner.

PEdit: Oh, hooray.

So you think, pending my townflip, that Oversoul is town for defending me. How come this same train of thought does not apply to, eg, Fate?

You also think that my townflip changes nothing about your townread on Tierce, ie, you think I'm just completely wrong on my strongest scumread.

[Magua]

Spoiler: Yum.

[Magua]

Eat hearts.

I mean.

I thought that was kind of obvious.

[Magua]

Magua if you continue to troll so help me god.

Oversoul, you are no fun *at all*.

I'm an X-shot vig, and I get to set my own kill flavor (which, let me tell you, is far and away the best thing evar), with the restriction that it has to be 1000000% obvious that I'm the one who made the kill (ie, zoraster had to approve it). So.

Why didn't you eat tierce?

Or also why Did you end up on KKB?

I was going to eat Tierce's heart, but I backed down at the end out of

cowardice

fear of being wrong. Reread kanye in light of the Johhog flip, and eventually figured that either Nacho-scum was bussing kanye or Nacho-town was more right on kanye than I was.

[Magua]

OVERSOUL

YOU

ARE

A GODDAMN

FUCKING MORON

[Magua]

HOLY SHIT

[Magua]

I MEAN

LITERALLY

THE WORST.

OMG.

[Magua]

Oversoul.

Use your brain

For five seconds.

For the love of Christ and all that is pure.

[Magua]

Oversoul, for fuck's sake.

Jesus H. Christ.

Literally.

No words.

Literally.

No words.

[Magua]

Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh.

I set the kill flavors. "Shot" is Mafia, "Stabbed" is SK, Magua-heart-eating is town.

I did this to try to eat a bullet (or two). BUT THEN OVERSOUL GOES AND FUCKS IT UP.

Like, WHAT THE FUCK IS HE THINKING? "OH, MAGUA IS PUBLICLY CLAIMING A KILL? WELL FUCK, SOUNDS LIKE WHAT AN SK WOULD DO! NO WAY ANYBODY'S GOING TO TRY TO SHOOT HIM NOW, LET'S CLAIM AND RUIN GODDAMN EVERYTHING BECAUSE HUUUUUUUUURR"

[Magua]

Fucking goddamn it.

[Magua]

Find two brain cells to rub together next time, Oversoul, Jesus H. Christ. There was no need for you to claim at all. FUCK.

[Magua]

Why would you not use killed by the mafia, killed by the SK, killed by town as your flavors?

Matias I realize I may have prematurely ejaculated but first time I have ever been a vig and I'll be damned if Magua gets me to waste a shot on him with his trolling.

BECAUSE I WAS TRYING TO GET SHOT. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF THE CLAIM. TO GET ME SHOT.

When I flip and the award is revealed it would become 10000% obvious that the "Magua-heart-eating" kills were done by town.

"Killed by Mafia" / "Killed by SK" are out of site-meta and would risk making it obvious what I was doing. "Shot" and "stabbed" are so widely used that it should be obvious to anyone what faction was response.

[Magua]

Matias I realize I may have prematurely ejaculated but first time I have ever been a vig and I'll be damned if Magua gets me to waste a shot on him with his trolling.

IT WASN'T TROLLING I WAS TRYING TO DRAW A BULLET GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD.

[Magua]

I could've drawn a roleblocker, I could've drawn a Mafia kill, I could've drawn an SK kill.

But noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

[Magua]

I knew it. I knew it. I knew when you asked about the flavor, specifically, that it was you. And I said to myself, "Magua, thank god it's Oversoul. He'll see what you're trying to do."

nope.jpg.

[Magua]

@Magua...there are certain times that it's beneficial for town to not show their hand other than to just point out that there are connections to be made. I'm only saying that because he's pointed out that there are several connections, and who would be involved in them, yet you need to know exactly what his opinion would be on each one of them before it even matters? Why?

Because after "it even matters", I would be dead (since it's my flip that was being discussed), and despite me whining to zoraster about it, I can't ask questions after I'm dead.

Srsly.

I cannot possibly believe you are Town, because if you were Town you wouldn't be this mockery of the player I know, and you would actually be giving a damn about this game after the disaster that was Maf.Xenologue. That hammer was inadmissible and you're hoping to survive it because who the fuck cares if you hammer the D1 pet mislynch.

Hi, Tierce.

So.

The wagons yesterday at the end were Johhog, myself, and you.

Johhog was town.
I'm town.
FYPOV you should be town. Which tbqh I don't believe, but we'll use it for sake of argument.

You're yelling at Nacho for hammering in a situation where fypov it was a guaranteed townlynch. If Nacho hadn't've hammered, someone else would've had (me, if nothing else).

The only bad thing about Nacho's hammer was not waiting for a claim, and that doesn't get a mention.

Eh, Just got to 1715 where that last point is addressed so withdrawn.

You're yelling at Nacho for not pushing a wagon that you yourself deserted in order to vote me, a compromise lynch for you. (And that doesn't even count you leaving the Fate wagon.)

This doesn't parse for me.

---

The Mafia killing BBmolla over Fate/hitogoroshi/Reckoner is really making me paranoid. I can only read that as a pr hunt, which means that Mafia wasn't worried about the party, specifically hitogoroshi (considered town by almost everyone D1) or Fate (considered town by less than hito, but had Reck's defense).

Fate's not even raging at the Mafia for killing BBmolla over him, nor is he taunting them for leaving him alive.

---

I still find Bulbazak's scumread on kanye in 1395 to be off. It was accurate (obviously), but I can't follow the thought process, which makes it feel fake. This is lessened in my mind by his push on hito/Reck/Fate, which reads as townier (only so many times Mafia is going to bus with an SK running around).

[Magua]

Kindly tell me about any Party interactions after Johhog's flip.

[Magua]

He was a vanilla townie. His wagon wasn't moving when he claimed vanilla townie.

This is an after the fact justification. As far as you knew when you hammered, he could've been a cop, doc, vig, etc.

[Magua]

@Reck:

Kindly tell me about any Party interactions after Johhog's flip.

[Magua]

I got a really strong read on singer as town early on and I'm sticking by that for the time being. LLD & Hito are also both town. After the Johhog flip, there was some lamenting from me & hito about it, and Fate going FUCKING FUCKERS I SAID IT WASN'T FUCK FUCK FUCK etc more fate stuff but there wasn't a lot of interaction. Hito was moving, I had a really rough few days, plus me/Fate had the prerelease Friday/Saturday so we didn't talk a lot.

So who is the scumteam who looked at (Reckoner, Fate, hito, LLD, and singer)-town and said, "Fuck it, let's shoot molla"?

[Magua]

Like, we're in a party. Okay, sure. So what? Why does that make us a priority kill target?

Ignoring everything else, if the party is all Town, who all read each other as all Town (as y'all are wont to do), then that is a strong 5-person Town bloc, and narrows the Mafia to being in the other 14 people after Johhog's lynch, which is bad news for the Mafia.

That, aside from aaaaaaanything else, could make you a priority kill target.

Then you've got you, former Paragon of Mafia Hunters. And Fate, being Fate but more importantly being townread-the-fuck-out-of by you, again, former Paragon of Mafia Hunters.

But instead, the Mafia chose to kill BBmolla.

[Magua]

I mean, work with me here, Reck.

Let's assume the Party is all Town.

I'm Town.
Oversoul is Town.

That means the list of potential suspects is now reduced to:

Feirei
Benmage
Cogito Ergo Sum
DeasVail
Bulbazak
Zdenek
Matias
nachomamma8
SalmonellaDreams
Tierce

In there are four Mafia (and the deceased kanye) who thought that BBmolla was a better kill than you, Fate, hitogoroshi, LLD, or singer. I'm not seeing it.

[Magua]

Things.

I think there's scum in the party. I think that BBmolla was killed because the mafia were PR-hunting instead of trying to eliminate threats, ie, the mafia did not find the party to be a threat.

I do not like the "omg Magz its totally reasonable for maf to shoot molla over us" from Reckoner. Everyone's like, "Oh, shit, hito led a mislynch, Reck could be protected, yep, it's super obvious that the smart Mafia move is to shoot BBmolla, whom has previously been left alive until lylo as an Innocent Child."

I hate Fate's posts with a passion, but do not believe in Fate-scum/Reck-town. So do not want to lynch Fate today, and do not want to lynch Fate in the event of a Reckoner-town flip. Still, this whole argument of, "Tierce can't shoot me if she's scum because she'll get autolynched so instead she lets me live so I capsrage at her and do nothing else" makes me sadface. Tierce's sarcasm in 1789 pretty much exactly sums up what I think about that line of thought.

---

Feirei and CES need to step it up and start providing content. Really tired of throwaway one line posts.

Really want to know what Zdenek, DeasVail, and Salmonella thinks of everything.

Upon retrospection, Bulbazak can be moved to the cautiously town pile.

[Magua]

Oversoul, I think you're overstating the value of the universal townread as a method of kill determination -- again, reference to him living to endgame as an Innocent Child.

My last interaction with molla was in response to him saying, essentially, "Well, I think Fate is scum, let's no lynch."

@Salmonella:

Your total contribution to this Day is four lines, two of which are saying "Feirei is scum."

Why is Feirei scum?

What do you think of Fate/Reck/Hito?

What do you think of Tierce?

[Magua]

Why did you feel the need to comment about your interaction with BBmolla?

As an example of BBmolla's goddamn poor play[1], which is what makes the kill problematic in my eyes, and why I'm paranoid about the party in response.

[1] In light of his PR flip, he might've been playing this up to try to avoid the NK...but I don't think so.

[Magua]

Spoiler:

[Magua]

I'm actually reading everything. I'm not saying things at the moment because I'm more interested in what other people are saying before I

drop the hammer and release some indiscriminate justice

say my piece.

[Magua]

kanyeknowsbest [Best Scum Team] the Mafia Goon had his children put under the knife, so that he knew that his seed was wiped out forever, before Magua ate his heart.

I regret nothing!

[Magua]

Although I did laugh at the singer/LLD 1v1 that ended with Bulbazak being lynched.

Also, I probably never would've lynched Mattias in a million years, so, good thing I died.