Scummies Invitational 2012 (Game Over)

[xRECKONERx]

No, I don't. The rest of the post would've been useless without the hammer.

Whatever, I don't actually think this is a productive line of questioning.

[xRECKONERx]

"Reck quickhammering doesn't make sense" - Bulbazak

I've done this time and time again, both as scum and as town. That is what Fate was hinting at in thread, that he wanted me to quickhammer. It's what we've done before, and despite my hesitance, I got a gleam in my eye that you knew he was going to flip scum and were lining up mislynches.

"I took it as a sign you were partners, but then once he flipped town, I did whatever I could to make Reck-scum make sense in my head because I'm tunneling like a moron".

[xRECKONERx]

I am sincerely not trying to misrep anyone, I don't see where I've done that, at all.

[xRECKONERx]

I only mentioned Reck misrepping Bulbs motives... Bulb never says anything about Reck misrepping.

Reck was misrepping me and setting me up to be the day's mislynch

go on...

[xRECKONERx]

Ugh. I actually don't feel strongly about anyone in particular being scum, which means I'm likely on the wrong path, here.

But, SD was on my would lynch list, so I'm not going to fight it,

Vote: SD

L-1

[xRECKONERx]

No no no no.

Roleblocker could easily be scum PR, and it would make sense with the amount of PRs we have already. We lynch SD, then deal with Fate based on his flip. If SD is scum, great. If SD is town, having a compulsive RB potentially blocking town abilities is more of a liability.

Lynch. Test the claim.

[xRECKONERx]

BULBA.

DO YOU REALIZE THE ONLY OPTION HERE IS THAT FATE IS THE

SERIAL KILLER

ACCORDING TO SD'S CLAIM?

THERE'S NO FUCKING WAY WE'RE SCUMBUDDIES.

ARE YOU SHITTING ME? FUCK

[xRECKONERx]

We don't need to lynch Fate today. We

need

to lynch SD for a number of reasons:

- If Fate IS the SK, then it will be basically confirmed upon SD's flip.
- If Fate ISN'T the SK, then it's a waste of a lynch and it leaves us staring down SD again tomorrow (because if Fate flips anything other than SK, it just means that there's another explanation for the missing kill).

And, probably most of all, I'm way more interested in lynching scum than lynching SK at this point. With an SK alive, crosskills could keep us in the game. With no SK alive, I'm pretty sure that makes tomorrow LYLO. I'm not sure, I haven't done the math in full, but I'm pretty sure SK hunting is the 100000% wrong way to go today (and if SD is scum, doubly so).

[xRECKONERx]

BULBA.

DO YOU REALIZE THE ONLY OPTION HERE IS THAT FATE IS THE

SERIAL KILLER

ACCORDING TO SD'S CLAIM?

THERE'S NO FUCKING WAY WE'RE SCUMBUDDIES.

ARE YOU SHITTING ME? FUCK

Says the wanting to test the flip to test the claim...

This means literally nothing, you're just using irrelevant attacks to try and discredit me. Bulbazak's insistence that me/Fate are scum IN THE FACE OF THE CLAIMED POWER ROLE SAYING THAT'S NOT POSSIBLE is either ignorance or blind tunneling, or both, and either makes him purposefully obtuse town or scum who just doesn't realize what's happening right now.

The facts are simple: lynching Fate (regardless of him being SK or town) gives us nothing today and potentially harms us tomorrow, lynching SD (regardless of him being town or scum) gives us at least something today and sets us up with more information and better decision making tomorrow.

[xRECKONERx]

Damn... I don't really know what to think of this claim.

Town points for SD for his thought process on the actions each night. Additional town points for SD based on the compulsive modifier that was used on the framer in Zor's Always On... Zor's way of making sure a particularly incriminating role gets used each night...

Plus the possibility of getting double day out of a Fate lynch...

Damn... Sorry Fate... Time to think.

This is an interesting point on the mod meta that makes the SD claim a little more believable in my eyes, but I still don't think Fate is the play today. SK has to hit scum soon, and so do we, so for the moment, if Fate

is

the Serial Killer, our goals are mutual.

[xRECKONERx]

Wait, holy shit, we still have FIFTEEN players alive?

On D3, with 1 scum dead, that gives us... uh, hold on:

15 players (10-4-1)

IF SK LYNCH: D4 = 9-4, D5 = 7-4, D6 = 5-4 (LYLO)

IF TOWN LYNCH...
...AND MAFIA/SK CROSSKILL: D4 = 9-3, D5 = 7-3, D6 = 5-3 (MYLO)
...AND SK SHOOTS MAFIA TEAM: D4 = 9-3-1, D5 = 7-2-1, D6 = 5-1-1, D7 crosskill = win, or D7 kill one faction = 4-1, D8 = 2-1

Hmm.

This math is too hard and has too many variables, but I think the SK killing mafia is the best? I can't believe it's only D3 and there are still 15 players left, wow. Regardless, I don't want to off the SK yet.

[xRECKONERx]

Fate isn't confirmed scum. He's only confirmed scum if SD is telling the truth, which we only know he's doing if he's actually town. With SD dead as a town RB, THEN we can go off of his claims.

Why is your theory that Fate only carried out the kill N2? Why not N1 too? Why does it

matter

in the grand scheme of things? We're still missing kills either way -- you're going out of your way to stretch the realm of probability that the N1 kill was stopped for a completely different reason altogether. And, let's be honest, adding a protective role to a setup that, in your mind, contains a town RB, a town cop, and a town adjusting investigator seems to be a little bit broken, in terms of balance, especially with a dead goon revealed.

I

do not

think Fate is mafia. I

do think

it's possible he's the SK, but even in that case, he can be dealt with at any point and possibly provide us some value in the meantime.

I'll explain it again this time:
- If we lynch Fate, regardless of if he flips SK or town, it tells us nothing about SD, because people could just go "Oh, well must've been something else stopping the kills!" and we're back to square one with no information.
- If we lynch SD, regardless of if he flips scum or town, it tells us

something

about the gamestate because we'll know what his actual ability is/was, and we'll know if he was telling the truth or not.

It makes no sense to lynch Fate first, we can easily lynch him tomorrow if SD turns up right and town. Bulb, you're tunneling so hard that you're doing mental acrobatics to try and make a Fate/Reck scumteam make sense in your head. You think, with Fate's head on the block, I'd forgo a chance to bus him? I bus

hard

in the motherfucking paint. And, furthermore, you think that as scum, I'd try to corral hito & LLD into secretly starting a vote train on him because of his refusal to communicate with us D1 in the Always On party? NOTHING in this game fits with a Fate/Reck team. I believe it was you who said you don't look at associative tells and look at each person individually -- well, I suggest you stop playing such an obtuse game and start thinking about what is actually happening.

[xRECKONERx]

And, on the idea of Fate being any kind of scum, I can pretty much say he's NOT beyond a shadow of a doubt because of a private conversation we had during D1/N1 and the Always On party, and I

promise

I'll explain why at a later time.

[xRECKONERx]

Do

you

buy it, LLD?

[xRECKONERx]

I read it as scum saving himself with information that just so happens to be useful to the town, yeah.

[xRECKONERx]

Oh, holy fuck, I completely missed that part of the rules.

In which case, scum DEFINITELY want the SK lynched because he can pose a threat to them and they can't kill him. In which case, I'm DEFINITELY not lynching Fate today.

Mafia kills instead "roleblock" the SK... which, if I'm understanding correctly, literally couldn't have happened yet (because N1 there was vig shot + mafia shot, N2 there was one kill).

Mafia benefit HEAVILY from a SK lynch, town only benefit slightly. LYNCHING THE SK IS NOT THE PLAY TODAY OR ANY TIME SOON.

And we're certainly not taking our double day right now when we're so low on information to use, the double day would be MUCH more beneficial later.

[xRECKONERx]

@Bulbazak:

#1) My point wasn't that SD can't tell the truth as scum, it was that Fate wasn't "CONFIRMED SCUM" as you suggested UNLESS SD flipped town and we could then verify he was telling the truth (since town wouldn't lie about that, but scum might).

#2) How do you know that there are protective roles in the game? I must've missed it, because I thought

hito

was the role that could check if other roles are in the game (note: this is not rolefishing, this is an attempt to understand what is influencing your POV).

#3) If I were mafia, I'd be leaping at the chance to lynch the SK for the reasons outlined above (mafia can't kill him, but he can kill mafia, meaning he's purely a liability). Keeping the SK around is not a mafia tactic, especially given the circumstances surrounding the SK in this game.

#4) If Fate flips SK, it still doesn't mean that SD is town, I guess is what I meant to say. If Fate flips town, it could've been someone else stopping the kills. If Fate flips SK, it literally means NOTHING about SD's alignment.

#5) The point is that

we can't be sure he's telling the truth unless he's town

, so we can't take his claims as the Word of God. Are you seriously suggesting that you'd blindly follow a confirmed scum's reads/directions, knowing that scum have purely selfish motivations and their entire purpose in this game is to LIE?

#6) It's possible he is the SK and is just being ballsy with his play, but I find it unlikely. I find it pretty IMPOSSIBLE that he could be mafia, though.

#7) I had suspicion of Fate D1 early on, but you have to understand, I hang out with him in real life and can talk to him face-to-face. Of COURSE after I talked with him and got a read on him I'd be convinced he's town or scum... playing face-to-face mafia while everyone else is playing forum mafia is a HUGE gamechanger, one that you've constantly ignored in your relentless tunnelling on the imaginary Fate/Reck scumteam.

[xRECKONERx]

Still disliking how Bulbazak first tried to tie me to a Zdenek scum flip, and when Zdenek flipped town, still found reasons to come after me. Now he's trying to tie me to a Fate scum flip, and when Fate flips not-mafia, he'll still find a way to come after me.

The thing is, it makes ZERO sense for mafia to try to setup mislynches like that and tie me down to people they KNOW aren't going to flip what they're banking they are, but it could just be a very stupid game of WIFOM.

[xRECKONERx]

We don't lynch Fate today, and we don't lynch him at all unless SalmonellaDreams flips town RB. If he flips scum RB, we can consider the options.

Double day now isn't as useful as double day later, and if Fate

is

the SK, it's not like mafia are going to be able to kill him or waste a shot on him just to RB him. And if they do, then it's less kills flying at us. I actually think leaving the SK alive is the optimal, smartest play. I can't think of any positive benefit to killing the SK now, other than "the SK might hit town" but he also might hit mafia, and he also might absorb a mafia kill which would STOP his kill.

[xRECKONERx]

Also, if Fate was actually the SK, I would've thought Tierce would've eaten a bullet by now.

[xRECKONERx]

He's been roleblocked for two nights, Reck...?

Mmm, yeah, hypothetically.

I really still just wanna lynch SD and figure this shit out.

[xRECKONERx]

What is my motivation in stopping a lynch on Fate, here? Is it SCUM motivated? Sure, only if we're buddies, and we're not, and if SD stopped the kill both nights then it's literally IMPOSSIBLE for us to be buddies... and if Fate IS the SK, it's actually NOT beneficial for me to stop his lynch. Is it SK motivated? No, it's a completely null play if I'm the SK. Is it TOWN motivated? Yes, yes it is -- because I truly believe that Fate isn't scum, and while there's an outside chance he's the SK, keeping the SK around benefits town more than scum at this juncture, and I have a really hard time believing a RB claim as town no questions asked, so I want some clarity before we just pump the brakes.

I should be lynched because we have a claim from someone who was at L-1 and I want to test it to see if it's legitimate? Are you high?

[xRECKONERx]

@Bulbazak: Because Fate is someone who has had interest in lynching expressed on him, and it's an easy way to explain the missing kills while buying some town credit? Like, of course mafia, if they have to fakeclaim, are going to fakeclaim whatever makes them seem most town/increases their chances of survival. And no, there aren't always protective roles, especially with so many other power roles already. And, as I've explained already, it doesn't increase the odds of winning because mafia can still get hit by SK shots as well, and at this point, it's much more in the SK's favor to shoot mafia instead of town.

You're being fucking obtuse on purpose and misreading what I'm saying just to frustrate me.

SD isn't confirmed scum

yet

; if he

FLIPS SCUM

then he is confirmed scum, at which point you'd purposefully follow the reads of a known liar/scumbag?

I'm not elaborating quite yet on why I think it's impossible for Fate to be mafia, nor why I think it's unlikely he is SK. I will do so at a future time, but it won't be today. I think there is still value to withholding information to make scum make shots in the dark at what's going on.

You think that me/hito/Fate are scum... because we'd be able to pull off a gambit? What kind of gambit? Who did we pull it on? What kind of gambit could we pull off in Always On that we couldn't pull off as scum with daytalk? Why does that have an impact on ANYTHING -- Tierce pointed out scum have daytalk, so the ability to talk outside the game is useless for the three of us if we're scum. Why isn't LLD scum, too? She was in the original group of four that devised the D1 plan, so why exclude her? And hito doesn't live near us, he hasn't spent any REAL LIFE FACE TO FACE time with us.

[xRECKONERx]

Bulbazak do you actually believe that there are ALWAYS protective roles in mafia games?

[xRECKONERx]

Except, it also could result in scum kills. Getting rid of the NK doesn't actually tip the odds in our favor, because the odds are sporadic to begin with. PLUS, with an SK alive, LyLo doesn't actually mean LyLo, as we can keep going if there's a third party to fuck with mafia. Say we don't kill another mafia, say it gets down to 7 players. I'd much rather be in 3-3-1 than 3-4, because SK would HAVE to kill mafia, and mafia couldn't kill SK.

You also have to think about the fact that lynching the SK gives double day, meaning none of town power get a night to figure anything out. Right now, a double day would be disastrous, as we would pretty much still be informationless and squandering. Later on, with more information, having two days could win us the game.

[xRECKONERx]

Man, I just CANNOT get across what I mean to say. I'm brain fried from being at work and can't think hard enough to formulate what I want to say. I'll give this another go later if anyone is confused by my points.

[xRECKONERx]

Ugh.

I have a bad feeling about this. Why can't we lynch SD first?

[xRECKONERx]

Because it's incredibly likely that he's a mafia roleblocker and we could have dead scum now, get night results in, then worry about Fate and get a double day? Or because if he's mafia and lying, we lynch Fate for literally no reason, then he just goes WOOPSIES I GUESS IT WASN'T ME STOPPING THE KILLS and we have to lynch him anyway? For that matter, if he's town and ACTUALLY wasn't stopping the kills, we STILL have to lynch him because of the WIFOM of it all.

Basically, no matter what happens when we lynch Fate, we have to lynch SalmonellaDreams next.

However, there's a small chance that if we lynch SalmonellaDreams first, and he flips NOT ROLEBLOCKER, we don't have to lynch Fate. Otherwise, we do.

Lynching SD first eliminates any room for doubt, and he is going to be lynched REGARDLESS. Fate isn't necessarily going to be lynched because we don't know if SD is telling the truth or not.

I just think it's a much smarter play to lynch SD first.

[xRECKONERx]

Here, I made a flowchart to help everyone!



F-1: With Fate as the SK, SD could still be the mafia roleblocker, so we lynch him.
F-2: With Fate as town, SD is more likely to be lying in some capacity, so we lynch him.
F-3: With Fate as mafia, SD could still be bussing, so we lynch him.

S-1: With SD as the Town RB, his claim is valid, so we lynch Fate.
S-2: With SD as the Mafia RB, his claim still carries weight, so we lynch Fate.
S-3: With SD as the [Anything Not RB], there is

literally no more reason to lynch Fate

, so we don't.

In any and all situations where we lynch Fate first, we lynch SD immediately afterwards. There IS an outcome in lynching SD first, however, where we do NOT proceed by lynching Fate, thereby saving us a mislynch AND killing a liar in the process. If all situations are likely to end in the same result anyway, why not eliminate the ONE outcome that WOULDN'T result in lynching both of them?

[xRECKONERx]

Like, if SD flips roleblocker, you'll have my voice and support for a Fate lynch tomorrow. But in that event where he DOESN'T flip RB, we've just avoided a massive pile of bullshit.

[xRECKONERx]

After spending the evening frustrated that I can't get my point across, organizing the way I viewed the situation this way was the best way I could think to help everyone. And I've never seen Nuwen make a flowchart AFAIK.

@Tierce: And if we lynch Fate today and he's NOT the SK,

THE SERIAL KILLER STILL GETS A GODDAMNED NIGHT KILL

. Considering the fact that SD has been scummy and just pulled this claim out of his ass at L-1, and blocking someone you think is town isn't actually internally congruent with how town would play that role. Even if Fate

is

the SK and

does

get a NK, there's NOTHING to suggest he'd hit town over scum.

[xRECKONERx]

See? I'm not finishing thoughts again.

There are six possible outcomes.

One of them involves stopping the SK from getting another shot, a shot that might hit town or scum.

One of them involves stopping a mislynch on a town player, a lynch that would only hit town (from the data's point of view).

The best decision is to lynch SD first.

[xRECKONERx]

Flashy =/= scummy when dealing with me.

And Nuwen is always a flashy player, regardless of alignment.

[xRECKONERx]

@Matias: You're scum. You're at L-1. There's a SK in the game.

You can easily try to wriggle out of a lynch by calling out a player many players have showed a passive interest in voting.

Or, if you ARE a scum RB and you go down in this way, you can potentially take down a high value town player with you.

I'm not saying my way will produce that outside result where SD just isn't a RB at all and made all of this up, but looking at our options, it's the only situation where they don't BOTH get lynched, so why not eliminate the outlier first?

@Oversoul: If Fate flips mafia, it's the same situation as if he'd flipped town or SK. We lynch SD next anyway, because there's nothing to say he's a town RB over a mafia RB. Shit, people are suggesting

using the double day from the SK flip

to lynch SD anyway. SD's claim isn't alignment indicative IN THE SLIGHTEST, which means all the previous votes/suspicion on him that are now jumping ship are unfounded. Nothing about his claim makes it more likely to come from town than scum, even if it is true.

[xRECKONERx]

TL;DR - We lynch Fate first, then we're lynching SD regardless. We lynch SD first, there's an outside chance he's lying and we DON'T have to mislynch Fate.

[xRECKONERx]

I might convince people. Why do you want me to shut up so much? We're discussing the value proposition of each course of action we can take, but you're deadset on lynching Fate without discussing other possible options.

I'll decline your request to shut up.

[xRECKONERx]

@Matias: I'm not ensuring it, because it's not 100% that Fate is SK. In my opinion, the risk of a townie getting killed "randomly" if SD's claim is correct is justifiable to make the smart play and know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Fate is, in fact, the SK before we lynch someone who is a very strong player.

@Oversoul: First off, if Fate flips mafia, it would "clear" SD, and is the exact type of claim I know I would make in that situation to clear myself to LYLO. Furthermore, by "large amount of possible nightkills", do you mean one (1) extra nightkill from Fate-SK?

[xRECKONERx]

Thank you for sanity, Matias. And yes, I will agree to that.

[xRECKONERx]

no

[xRECKONERx]

Hmm. Fair enough.

@Bulbazak: Now that you're FATE AND RECK ARE SCUM TOGETHER FOREVER theory is clearly wrong, what do you think about me?

VOTE: SalmonellaDreams

[xRECKONERx]

It wasn't that Fate was

town

, per se, it was that I was sure he wasn't

mafia

, and I guess it never occurred to me that it was possible for him to have been a SK. He was still scumhunting in earnest.

[xRECKONERx]

Yeah, I'll admit, I was wrong, there.

The conviction came from the belief that he sincerely wasn't mafia, though. When the idea was presented that Fate could be SK, you'll notice I wasn't trying to defend him anymore, because I realized that could be an actual possibility. I'll be interested to see if he tried to shoot me or not. I got somewhat fleeced, I'll admit, but I feel like my reads came from the right place.

[xRECKONERx]

@SD: Reck is scum because...?

[xRECKONERx]

Why would you assume there'd be more traction for a Reck lynch than a Feirei lynch?

[xRECKONERx]

#1) Yes, I do think his reads were genuine. However... I think his read on you was forced early on and since he wasn't actually town he didn't feel challenged to change it.

#2) You're not the towniest player in the game and some of your early play still gives me pause but I have you in my "won't lynch" column right now.

[xRECKONERx]

Number of reasons I'm scum given by my detractors: zero.

[xRECKONERx]

I see more self-hammers from town than scum, tbf

[xRECKONERx]

Well that was a slam dunkarooski.

[xRECKONERx]

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH

[xRECKONERx]

No it didn't. I literally had the opposite reaction.

[xRECKONERx]

Hito... don't go anywhere on me, now.

Come baaaaaaaaack

[xRECKONERx]

Because he had committed to the lynch and pretended like any post-hammer appeals to emotion had any affect on the alignment of SD.

When a lynch on a buddy is inevitable, bussing members have to do

something

to stand out from the crowd and get some town cred.

Exactly what would've made Matias go: "Yes, we nailed a scum!" Did he expect scum to just go "Yep, self-hammering, you got me!" and roll over after the hammer? No, of course not... scum are going to keep throwing out as much misinformation as possible until the very last moment. Treating any post-hammer plays by anybody as someone revelatory about their alignment is shallow and vapid, and the ONLY reason to engage in that kind of play is to appear like you're being plaintive about the death of a townie, only to be "surprised" that it was actually a scum lynch! Wow-ee-wow, I sure didn't know their alignment, you guys!

[xRECKONERx]

hey nacho how 'bout my post about matias

[xRECKONERx]

ALSO another point for Matias scum: he worked out a deal with me to lynch Fate first over his buddy.

[xRECKONERx]

I just feel like you've been lurky recently.

I'm not voting Mattos because I'm not sure he is scum. I think it's possible but this game is such a clusterfuck I don't know.

[xRECKONERx]

LLD, do you remember what we talked about in the party? I don't get your 2702

[xRECKONERx]

Secret party language.

[xRECKONERx]

People I'm not very interested in lynching today: Nacho, CES, hito.

People I'm not interested in lynching but wouldn't cry over: Tierce, Bulbazak, Feirei.

Everyone else is pretty much on the table.

[xRECKONERx]

Oh yeah, Oversoul is confirmed town and still alive, very odd.

But I'm certainly not interested in lynching him, either.

I think we have a pretty good chance of hitting scum between Benmage/DeasVail/Lady Lambdadelta/Matias/singersigner.

[xRECKONERx]

Actually, move Feirei to the "pretty good chance" list.

So, let's talk about these people:

Benmage
DeasVail
Lady Lambdadelta
Matias
singersigner
Feirei

[xRECKONERx]

- SD calls LLD, hito, Nacho, me, kanye, Oversoul, and Magua town, calls Feirei scum.

- Hops back and forth between Feirei & Johhog with little hesitation

- Pushes pretty hard for a Feirei lynch, calls Fate & Reck & hito town; defends Tierce

- Pushes more for a Feirei lynch but not TOO hard; I'm town again, CES is null, Nacho is null leaning scum.

- Then pushed to claim, claims RB on Fate, Fate gets lynched, uses WIFOM to try and explain why he's town in this situation, gets lynched.

Not a whole lot to go on, mostly empty, reasonless reads.

Worth nothing that he never mentions Benmage, or DeasVail, or Matias, or singer.

[xRECKONERx]

Reck, why are you willing to lynch LLD?

I probably spent about as much time talking to her one on one as I did singer, and that was "not a lot of time" so I don't necessarily trust my read on her from the group.

[xRECKONERx]

O hey I think I've found a place for my vote.

VOTE: singersigner

In other news, you appear to be terrible at organizing scum-free parties, Reck. Honestly.

I had to use my ability pretty immediately or else I couldn't use it at all.

I think hito is non-scum in the party, along with myself and Fate. It's interesting though... if singer AND LLD were both scum, that wouldn't be TOTALLY surprising.

[xRECKONERx]

Well, to be fair, I had a town read on both of them but I talked to LLD & singer way less than any of the others.

LLD seemed very genuine, though, so I'd be shocked if she was scum (but it's not outside the realm of possibility).

I'm pretty confident hito is town, though.

[xRECKONERx]

I backup gunsmithed Nacho, btw. It should be obvious by my insistence that he was town. Inherited the ability from BBmolla, and yes I forgot to use the cop last night. At least you'll have another confirmed town on your hands.

You...what?

[xRECKONERx]

Backup investigator. Once BBmolla died, I inherited his scaling ability and used it N2, but forgot N3. Actually, it says I can only use it once, so I might not have been able to use the second scale anyway.

This seems like a metric fuckload of town power at this point.

[xRECKONERx]

Vote: Singersigner

Sorry, I just think that's a lot of town power.

[xRECKONERx]

Am I the only one completely skipping over Feirei's posts?

[xRECKONERx]

Wait, who claimed Gunsmith?

[xRECKONERx]

I claimed in the party.

Hito did too.

LLD did too.

Fate was SK so it doesn't matter.

We barely spoke to singer.

[xRECKONERx]

Wait, who claimed Gunsmith?

Reck, are you scum?

No.

I'm serious, did singer claim Gunsmith? I thought she was claiming straight up backup.

[xRECKONERx]

The fuck just happened in this game.

Singer claimed backup investigator, became the role once BBmolla died.

@Singer: Was your role specifically linked to BBmolla's, or if ANY investigative role died would you have assumed their responsibility?

[xRECKONERx]

Holy fucking shit, seriously?

She gets to backup all town investigative roles that die?

[xRECKONERx]

Goddamn I have no clue what to think about this game anymore.

I will happily wagon anybody in the following list:

- Benmage
- Feirei
- DeasVail
- Bulbazak
- LLD
- Matias
- singer
- Tierce

Now... @PartyPeople, if you could trim down the list, what names would you cut? Specifically interested in what LLD & Hito have to say.

[xRECKONERx]

Why?

[xRECKONERx]

VOTE: DeasVail

I've felt this lynch for a long time, peeps.

[xRECKONERx]

Why.

[xRECKONERx]

VOTE: DeasVail

I've felt this lynch for a long time, peeps.

Why?

Honestly? Gut. I've pointed this out a couple times:

Post 1882: "CES & DV go into the 'town but I'm feeling uneasy' pile"
Post 2223: DV goes in the "Beep Boop?" column instead of the "town" column

But I haven't really acted on it or pressured it at all because it was nothing more than gut, and if DV

is

scum, I didn't want him on red alert and I didn't want to spook him.

[xRECKONERx]

I think everyone is forgetting how much DV was pushing SD

it was pretty hard y'all

no it wasn't

[xRECKONERx]

VOTE: Matias

[xRECKONERx]

Don't you

dare

invoke the sacred name of Our God.

Matias just scumtelled really hard and then when I was like, "but maybe I can ignore it" he scumtelled again, so no.

[xRECKONERx]

VOTE: DV

Please explain Reck.

First, he said he'd "need to iso" which is a great way to delay really taking a stance. Then, he called the main competing argument "town vs town" with no explanation behind either (which 8 times out of 10 is coming from scum) and that solidifed it. He reeks of a scumbag who feels awkward putting a foot down on either side for fear of it coming back to bite him.

[xRECKONERx]

VOTE: DV

Please explain Reck.

First, he said he'd "need to iso" which is a great way to delay really taking a stance. Then, he called the main competing argument "town vs town" with no explanation behind either (which 8 times out of 10 is coming from scum) and that solidifed it. He reeks of a scumbag who feels awkward putting a foot down on either side for fear of it coming back to bite him.

Thats a D1 tell.... he wouldn't feel the need to double buddy on D4 if scum.

He would if two of his buddies were already did and there were still 13 players alive. It's essentially D1 in a mini right now.

[xRECKONERx]

And we should discount 3 days/nights of flips and kills, yeah?

My favorite part is when you strawman my argument

[xRECKONERx]

I'm not misrepping it. He implies that scum wouldn't doublebuddy townies on D4 (for... no reason whatsoever), and my counterpoint is that the situation we're in right now, numbers wise, is identical to a D1.

[xRECKONERx]

Scumtells are not only relevant on D1, Matias, and you know that. Scumtells are scumtells.

Benmage's point wasn't that you were using informationless tells, it was that the

buddying

didn't make sense on D1. So here you go stretching his point to fit your agenda.

[xRECKONERx]

I do believe the tell. I also believe scumtells are scumtells in most cases, regardless of the stage in the game.

[xRECKONERx]

VOTE: Bulbazak

[xRECKONERx]

Still letting Tierce live, wheeee.

[xRECKONERx]

Massclaiming today is pretty stupid, but whatevs.

[xRECKONERx]

Feirei Amrun---unclaimed
Benmage---VT
Cogito Ergo Sum----unclaimed/but tied to Tierce
DeasVail---unclaimed
Bulbazak Elmo TeH AzN----BackupDoc
hitogoroshi----role identifier of sorts
Oversoul kdowns-----x-shot vig
Lady Lambdadelta---unclaimed
Matias---unclaimed
nachomamma8----Copped town
singersigner----Backup Cop
Tierce----CES ressurecter..
xRECKONERx---unclaimed

This is retardedly complex.

You're confusing award roles and game roles.

[xRECKONERx]

I'm not hesitating, I'm just not sure what the point of massclaiming this early is altogether? We're not in some situation where we desperately need to figure out some confirmeds to keep us rolling... like, we've got Oversoul & Nacho already, what does it matter?

[xRECKONERx]

VOTE: Feirei

It is finished.

[xRECKONERx]

Why does that matter in the slightest?

[xRECKONERx]

Why does that matter in the slightest?

Because Ferei hasnt claimed.

Unless you'd like to claim doctor before the night. I'll be sure to NK you. ohwait

Oh.

I thought Feirei had claimed the backup doc, guess I'm all turned around.

See? It all worked out just fine, woop woop.

[xRECKONERx]

Three scum in the party, just my luck. (2 Mafia + SK)

TBQH, I told Fate my singer read was weak as shit. It was mostly, "Singer isn't completely crumbling when speaking to me therefore she's town," because my experiences with singer-mafia involve near-nervous-breakdowns... but I should've realized she had gotten better when I played with her on Halloween in F2F and she carried our scumteam without breaking a sweat. Live and learn, I guess. LLD was also never a super strong town read, and was the MAIN reason I fakeclaimed in the hito/me/LLD claim triad.

Although, I doubt I would've actually gone hard after either of them. Matias was on my list the whole game but never fucked up enough for me to push it through. Singer & LLD probably WOULD have been on my list, but all the claims made no damn sense with both of them being mafia. I doubt town could've won this at all.

[xRECKONERx]

Also the original plan was to actually hang out with singer IRL and get a read on her that way but it just never happened. UGH.

I was so ready to smash LLD too.

snipe: @Zor, I liked the party element to the game, but it didn't feel quite strong enough. I felt like it should've been permanent, or at least longer than a day, or involved more people. I basically had to use it D1 to have five people in the party, which meant taking shots in the dark (which meant three scum ended up in the party). I just can't see how a 4 person or 3 person party would've been that beneficial D2/D3.

[xRECKONERx]

the original plan was to hang out with singer one night and id go shot for shot with her then get her to admit she was mafia but fate said it was too mean

[xRECKONERx]

AKA Fate no killed every night purposefully bc he was the only one in the party who knew I was a tracker but then got fucked by the noncompulsive SK not being public knowledge which lead to scum being able to fakeclaim RBs on him

[xRECKONERx]

Not going to feel bad about the lack of reveal on compulsive. If you were concerned about it, you could have played it as compulsive. You decided to take a risk by not shooting, which was understandable. But that was a calculated risk on your behalf.

Scum, btw had a gunsmith guilty on Fate.

The issue is that people are under the assumption SKs ARE compulsive. Setups are usually balanced with a SK to assume the SK is killing every night... so if the SK takes a calculated risk by no killing, which in and of itself lowers their chances of winning, they shouldn't be further punished by having everyone think "Oh there's not two kills so the SK must be roleblocked"

just my .02

[xRECKONERx]

Yes, Tierce. Usually when I say "just my .02", I am, in fact, speaking for

myself

. I just think if SK is going to be announced as a faction in the game, we should know whether or not they're being forced to kill. It has the potential for way too much misinformation to enter the game if everyone is expecting SK kills and they're not happening.

In any case, this game was pretty awful and exactly proves my theory that if you just take a bunch of "good" players a throw them together in a game, it's a catastrophe. There are too many strong personalities in one place and not enough "mediocre" or "bad" players to fill those much needed gaps in the playerlist. The scum team played as well as they needed here and pulled off a pretty convincing win, there's no doubt... but looking back at all of the lynches I was here for (Johhog, Zdenek/GNR, Fate, SD, Feirei) I don't think I would've done anything different. Every last one of them played in a way that dug their own grave and they deserved lynches. The funny thing is... had we left Fate-SK alive, I'm pretty confident this would've been a town victory, because I'm almost positive Fate would've offed LLD & singer.

[xRECKONERx]

I don't want to badmouth my player list or anything, but there's kind of a difference between Scummies Winners and Mafia All-Stars.

For what it's worth, I think having lots of strong mafia players is good, but having a lot of strong mafia players who are strong in the same way is bad.

I did put "good" in quotation marks. I don't think I'm a great player, but I think I'm "prolific" and therefore add a strong personality to the game.

Then you add in Fate's personality, which of course is going to directly contrast Tierce's stalwart/stubborn personality, none of which is going to play nice with Johhog's abrasiveness or Feirei's VI style of play, and it can just get out of control really quickly.