Red Wine Mafia: Game Over

[projectmatt]

vote: Empire

rot, you evildoer

[projectmatt]

I could care less if Pjovek is disruptive, he's probably not mafia. Bad wagon.

[projectmatt]

Unvote

Vote: Albert

[projectmatt]

I could care less if Pjovek is disruptive, he's probably not mafia. Bad wagon.

Pjovek is perfectly capable of trolling as scum.

That's not why I townread him.

I'll be more in-depth later.

[projectmatt]

Stuff tomorrow. Long weekend.

[projectmatt]

Unvote

I have townreads on Empire, Tammy, Pjvoek, Chamber, Katsuki and maybe T S O. My early reads can be shaky but at the moment I have reasons to townread all of these players and though I'm far too lazy to specifically reason out each one I will happily elaborate on some of them for you.

Oh, I think projectmatt's Town too.

Why?

Vote: Espeonage

I have lesser reads on Cabd/fferyllt and I really, really dislike a majority of Espeonage's play so far.
crashtextdummie's posts have actually struck a bit of a chord with me. Specifically, this post reads as having some really forced questioning/reads and his silence after doesn't exactly make me want to jump up and down. I'm willing to let that read go for the moment considering his contribution has been minimal but I would suggest not letting him fly under the radar.

[projectmatt]

Re: Tammy being tow

n

since someone asked a few pages back but I don't remember who:

I guess you could say it's primarily based on meta. I have two games of experience with Tammy and the game that just finished I was her scum partner. I've noticed that as scum Tammy seems to be overly reflective and nervous while still trying to maintain confidence - the difference between her play this game and her scumplay is the fact that she isn't constantly reminding herself and everybody that she is town by faking tells. Instead, she is inquisitive and unabashedly kind of shoving her thoughts down everybody's throats - which is a good thing.

Click on these words.

Now, compare to these words.

There is a comparative difference in tone and the way she responds to accusations and her willingness to actually search for reads. A majority of her scum game seems to be reserved and full of brevity while from everything I've observed this appears to be her town-game. I like the things that she has chosen to call out and I agree with a majority of her logic (so far).

Cephir,

I'm generally a little bit more quiet when it comes to larger games like these. My contribution will start to pick up more as I become less busy and am able to invest more time into this game. Perhaps I'll even go person by person and make a post like that explaining my read on them if I have the time.

[projectmatt]

I sort of townread Llamarble in spite of the fact this reads are almost the polar opposites of mine. I am shamelessly prod-dodging right now because I know I won't be able to get to this game again until Sunday, probably.

Empire, I am interested in hearing your other townreads but more specifically I am interested in knowing who you have scumreads on apart from Espeonage. Get to that.

[projectmatt]

The above post makes me want to switch to Albert very, very badly. I have little motivation for this game right now.

[projectmatt]

The above post makes me want to switch to Albert very, very badly. I have little motivation for this game right now.

[projectmatt]

My urge to lynch pjovek meter is rising.

Turn your meter down.

Stuff tomorrow. I'm exhausted.

[projectmatt]

I have been slacking due to some real life responbility. Pretty soon I'll be able to actually do stuff as normal.

I am let down with Empire replacing but I still have my townread on him.

Still have townreads on Tammy, Katsuki and Pjvoek and milder townreads on Chamber, Llamamarble and T S O. TSO, you are mistaken but that's okay.

Empire (or whoever replaces him), Tammy, Pmatt:

Quick recap on your scum read on espeonage, please.

I think my initial read on him came from the fact that his scumhunting/accusations looked extremely forced. His play so far has not been extremely scummy but still very unimpressive. I might be willing to switch to Albert but I'm waiting for a vote count.

[projectmatt]

T S O

, why do you scumread me?

Albert's play is shamefully lazy but I'm not exactly letting go of my read on Espeonage here. The thing about Espeonage is that none of the meta that I have on him adds up at all. While comparing his early town play to this one, I saw that when Espeonage is town he tends to be genuinely excited and aggressive. His overall play this game comes off not only as lazy - but as really nervous. It feels like to me that Espeonage isn't actually scumhunting but looking for reasons to accuse people. That might sound like a silly sentence but there's a huge difference between the two.

For example, his method of scumhunting in http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=22308 is really hyper and erratic. His conclusions of the mafia aren't based on on big analysis but rather through repeated questioning and pressuring. None of that is here.

After reading that ISO, read all of these posts

It comes off to me like he's willing to give up too easily and isn't actually invested in the game short of coasting long enough to get a lynch. I can understand he hasn't played in a year and a half - but it doesn't change the fact that his game is extremely, extremely sloppy and uncomfortable. That is why my vote will at the moment remain on Espeonage.

[projectmatt]

Hey

fferyllt,

how is my play reminding you of Chosen Mafia?

[projectmatt]

Fair enough. Although I would argue my play on Viscon was essentially the same - the only difference being that I had a lot to do at the beginning as I was replacing in. I am following the game, actually. But the days where I have time to actually read the game and post analysis of it at the same time are scarce. The interaction is prompted. You agreed with another play about something and I wanted to see whether or not you had actually read the game or you were just making it up at the top of your head. I'm still planning on making a full post of reads with actual detail but for now you'll have to deal with infrequent content.

[projectmatt]

Wow. You bringing that up got me to actually look at the game in question, and, holy shit. He's way more emotional and tonally... open? transparent? in that game. The difference is pretty shocking, and I suck at meta.

I wish I had two votes.

Ditch the Albert wagon, then.

Hold on, explain like I'm five, I don't follow

Espeonage is bad man!

[projectmatt]

pmatt is clueless, as far as I can tell, at least for the moment.

Haha, I would love for you to elaborate on this.

[projectmatt]

prod-dodge. I hope everyone has a good Thanksgiving. I won't have any family visiting until Friday so hopefully I can get some stuff done in this game tomorrow.

[projectmatt]

Llamarble, the problem is that your reads suck. Sorry. Why is Espeonage not mafia and why are you so desperate to start a counter-wagon? If you would give me a short essay as to why I've pinged your scumdar or whatever crap that is I would be extremely happy.

I have a few extra scumreads but considering I don't expect to actually go anywhere after today I'm saving them. I would make something bigger but you know, family and stuff. After today I should be able to at least explain why you

should

keep the wagon on Espeonage (haha, another empty promise!)

[projectmatt]

I'm mildly spiteful of the fact that you guys switched to Albert at the last second but considering Espeonage got quicklynched I guess I can't stay mad. I'l read through this game and give my reads in light of the flips.

[projectmatt]

I'm actually sort of putting my foot down on a Pjovek lynch for the moment. His reads (like Llamamarble) have been pretty dreadful but I'm not giving up my read on the fact that his conviction and sincerity comes off as town, snide remarks aside.

fferyllt has been completely on the "i really don't have any read on them at all" list of reads for this entire game but after reading through her posts today and also the fact that the two scum flips were pushing pathetically hard to get her lynched, I'm feeling somewhat comfortable saying that she is town.

Tammy isn't mafia, so Guyvett isn't mafia.

I have small reasons to townread Chamber, T S O and natirasha. Truthfully, Natirasha's play has been pretty poor but I still mantain a town read on Empire.

I'm actually thinking that it's Katsuki, partly due to the fact that Silver's play was horrible and her play in itself is really lackluster but I'm not voting anyone yet. This week is one of the busiest weeks I've had all year, so you'll have to bear with me as I try to get in content while I can.

[projectmatt]

Vote: Katuski

Being a douchebag doesn't make you mafia. But being Katuski does.

[projectmatt]

Much like Albert, Pjovek is another player that's disruptive but probably not mafia, and not really having any easy to see reason to be lynched other than getting on the nerves of other players. You're probably going to end up lynching him anyway, but like Albert being lynched while the Espeonage counterwagon was just sitting right there, you guys are probably doing the same thing right now. If I'm wrong for kind of townreading Pjovek then that is OK, but I've seen mislynches based off of nonsense so many times I can't help but defend this one.

Now, whether or not Katsuaki is actually mafia is another tough question, but at the moment he/she is my current lean.

[projectmatt]

Hearing from projectmatt would be nice too.

Yeah, I just got home. Tomorrow is opening night of a play that's essentially consuming my life at the moment, but I am reading in my spare time. I have jumbled thoughts and I'm a little demotivated but I'll try to get some extensive things in.

[projectmatt]

Still going to be away all day tomorrow but at the moment I'm still going to pretty strongly suggest that you guys avoid a Pjovek wagon. I really think you're falling into another mislynch trap and ignoring, once again, the actual mafia right in front of you. Make a vote for freedom and poverty and actually lynch Kat instead of squandering a mislynch.

[projectmatt]

Haha, I meant "freedom and liberty" and not "freedom and poverty."

[projectmatt]

@matt, the entire town except for you isn't accountable for the day1 mislynch. I was actively against an ABR lynch, perhaps the voice most directly against it. Natirasha was on the competing wagon, and I suspect others that overlap simply limped on to make a lynch happen. Those circumstances aren't these circumstance.

I don't think that the entire town is accountable, but rather I'm seeing right now what I think a town being piled on by a bunch of misled members of town and considering I've seen that situation many times, it's pretty frustrating. Regardless of the circumstance I'm essentially just saying, "let's actually lynch the mafia". I'm not pretending there aren't a few OK reasons to scumread Pjovek but I find any actual evidence against him fairly weak/uncompelling and unable to counter the town tells.

[projectmatt]

@projectmatt, if you have stuff you want to post on Sunday, I'm happy to wait.

Well, surprise! I'll be gone from about 10:30 AM to 11 at night tomorrow and the same schedule will follow suit on Sunday. Though I will be partly free on Monday, I somehow doubt that you want to hold the lynch that wrong considering what I mainly want to say today has been said - though I wish I had more time to create a compelling, logical case.

[projectmatt]

I'm not pretending there aren't a few OK reasons to scumread Pjovek but I find any actual evidence against him fairly weak/uncompelling and unable to counter the town tells.

I don't know what game you've been playing for the last 2 years but in mafia town tells don't counteract scum ones. The scum have an incentive to look like town, so all good scum should be town telling at times. The converse isn't true though.

I've been playing mafia. A few mild things that could be read as scumtells do, in fact, not counteract a huge amount of towntells and reasons to believe a person is town. The point of a towntell is that you think that the mafia wouldn't do it in their position, and it varies from player to player. There's nothing concrete.

[projectmatt]

Note: had you waited until Monday I would have actually provided enough content probably to at least create a decent case for why Pjovek should not be lynched but I guess you guys lynched him anyway. Huuzah. The site has been down a majority of the time I've tried to log in, stuff later.

[projectmatt]

It's not like he was a bad lynch.

lol

I'm not voting yet. I think I've made it clear that I think Katsuki is one mafia - but I'm trying to gather the rest of my reads first.

[projectmatt]

Actually you guys might be heading down a dark path here and after Christmas I'll provide everything I'm thinking. Merry Christmas!

[projectmatt]

I would replace out but that would be a really horrible move to pull on you guys so I'm going to do my best to rev up, and start taking this seriously. I'm sorry for being so slow here. If you're wondering, a majority of my motivation died after Tammy/Empire replaced out and my scumread got lynched, and then of course came a whole bunch of new things in real life that I wasn't able to juggle well with this website.

I think there are two more mafia alive. At the moment, the town really aren't in that dire of a situation but I guess we should do our best not to squander it badly.

I think that Natirasha is town and it's no small secret that the play of Empire influences that read pretty hugely - I think that Empire dropped a consistent amount of towntells, especially in regards to him virtually hiveminding with my reads in this post. Natrisha has come with the kind of confident, slightly snarky town attitude and tone that I would expect from him. He is, by far, one of the options that I would like to lynch the least today.

I also have a townread on Chamber. I feel like, considering this is a general read I don't have to go in depth but a majority of his play has rung as extremely town and I will be impressed if he actually is mafia.

That being said though,

Chamber,

give me a reason to vote Cabd. In terms of players, he has flown off my radar entirely which is actually a good thing as I see no genuine reason to scumread him at the moment.

I'm not sold on a TSO wagon, mainly due to the fact that I still feel like he's towntold incessantly in spite of everything. Yes, his play is both abrasive and overtly aggressive but what TSO is doing is literally grabbing this game by the collar and screaming "LYNCH THIS OR I HOPE YOU DIE" and I don't feel like, especially in a situation like this, TSO would take the lead so harshly as mafia. It feels akin to a suicide mission of sorts if he's actually pushing for a town mislynch as scum, and adding that on to the fact that his early play was pretty blatantly town I'm not inclined to vote him at all.

I townread Llamarble, in spite of myself.

I don't like Guyvett. I really don't like Guyvett but it doesn't change the fact that Tammy was town, which I explained in this post

Right now, I'm honestly thinking the mafia are between:

bbmolla
Katsuki
Cabd

..that is, if my town reads aren't incorrect this is certainly what my lynch pool is looking like. I feel like BBmolla is sort of flying under the radar in spite of the fact him and his predecessors play has been slightly lackluster. I feel like Katuski is mafia, and that's what I'm going to get to later. And when I say later, I mean before this game day ends. Please bear with me.

[projectmatt]

What an awful post

lol

Ffery, I forgot to mention you, but you were not on my lynch list! pls forgive

[projectmatt]

Pmatt, you need to pick one of the two rather soon, it would seem.

My choice has been Katuski pretty much all day, I was just planning on making a compelling case but I feel like that's somewhat useless considering there's little possibility of the lynch being changed on to anyone else at the moment. Showing intent to hammer as well.

[projectmatt]

I'm a vanilla townie. Thinking.

[projectmatt]

I've been doing a fair amount of re-reading in an attempt to approach the game with a completely objective view, forgetting about prior townreads. My townread on Tammy/Guyvett is still probably the strongest through everything. Guyvett seems really over-eager and at time picking at things that aren't there (like Cabd highlighting himself as green in the VCA) but it seems more like "excited town" and Tammy's slot was really, really good. If that slot manages to be scum, I'll be shell-shocked.

Is there any particular indication that there are 2 mafia left? The reason I am struggling with this is because I'm not sure what the scum would be between Cabd/Ffery/Nat. My mind is currently betting that if there is a partner to BBmolla, it would be Cabd.

And speaking of BBmolla, I think he is more than likely mafia. On top of having a pretty unnatural few days (as well as Mindgamer's slot), he's the only slot that failed to continually towntell, honestly. I'm trying to decide on a few primary questions like:

1. Are there two mafia?

2. Is NL'ing the optimal play today?

But I'm going to bring in a bit more as to why I do not like BBmolla's play. I'm relatively embarassed comparing my level of posting as compared to the rest of you guys. My activity is

slow

and usually I'm not like this in games. I'm hoping there can be at least part of a redemption here.

[projectmatt]

That's a fair point. In regards to your read though, the word "cadence" to describe a play makes no sense.

[projectmatt]

Content later tonight.

[projectmatt]

Anyway, I told you I would explain why I disliked BBmolla's play, so I'll do that. Starting with his predecessor, mindgamer..

Mindgamer's play was not bad, but it was still lacking something. Posts like this show a slightly disconcerting level of self-consciousness

Compare these two ISO's:

BBmolla's ISO from this game:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... ser_select

This is BBmolla's ISO from a game approximately a month ago. He was a vanilla townie.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... lect=16026

There's a pretty big tonal shift between the two. Both ISO's have a very minimalist, blunt way about them but the difference is that the town BBmolla has this town kind of confidence as evidenced by posts like this and this. BBmolla talks in short sentences but gets his point across.

However, his play this game comes off as relatively unnatural and insecure. It's hard to point out specific quotes due to this sporadic playstyle but his ISO is littered with questions that go absolutely nowhere, confusing attempts at scumhunting and things that make me feel like instead of actually attempting to find the scum, BBmolla is simply attempting to find approval.

He asks for reassurance on his Espeonage read, panders with comments like:

Why isn't Pjovek policy lynched yet, I don't want to read his garbage.

It really just comes off as simply

unnatural.

There are no conclusions drawn from scumhunting, no real mental connections made and no actual train of thought to follow. BBmolla is simply following the game as much as he can without actually putting in effort. This is a sharp contrast to the game he played as town, where he not only made logical sense but spoke logically and concisely.

It's not strong, but what else do I have, honestly? Right now, I'm in the middle of also analyzing Cabd and Ffery specifically. Of course I plan on posting more but if you guys also helped me out by letting me know where your current thought process is, that'd be great.

[projectmatt]

The links to the different ISO's don't work, but it isn't hard to find.

Is he deciding to bus or not ffs
lynch the scummy fuck

Whoa Mr. Opportunistic

[projectmatt]

What are the depressing implications behind it coming from a townish place?

[projectmatt]

I lied. I have absolutely no idea what to do now. I almost want to vote Cabd.

[projectmatt]

Okay. I'm pretty sure fferyllt is town. I think Guyvett is also town. Today, I'm going to vote BBmolla or Cabd. I initially almost recalled my scumread on BBmolla because I thought him townreading me all of the sudden looked like something scum wouldn't do - but his reasoning behind it and his sudden change in attitude towards me looks potentially fake. I also am under the opinion that Cabd's play has been pretty disappointing today.

[projectmatt]

And yes, I am waiting for another few hours before I decide to place a vote.

[projectmatt]

I'm probably going to end up voting BBmolla unless somebody can sway me into voting Cabd. I'll be back later this afternoon.

[projectmatt]

Vote: BBmolla

[projectmatt]

I'm either lynching BBmolla today or forcing the game into a no lynch. Might as well try.

[projectmatt]

........

[projectmatt]

i really hope i didn't just get myself blitzed on

[projectmatt]

life and everything sucks

[projectmatt]

Both of my townreads were scum.

Well.