Song Contest U-Pick - GAME OVER

[Paschendale]

Attention

Please state if you'd be willing to flavorclaim in your next post

We know that flavor is not relevant to alignment, but possibly to power roles. Rolefishing?

VOTE: Notscience

[Paschendale]

3. Songs can be ANY ROLE and ANY ALIGNMENT.

VOTE: Pasch

Sup?

Serious vote for no reason, or just pissy OMGUS? Probably the latter. But then we get to a more interesting question. If the songs don't matter at all, why bother claiming them?

[Paschendale]

Parama definitely looks town. Garruk could go either way. Definitely not supporting the lynch on him right now. Notscience vote was mostly RVS.

Dat bandwagon vote...

Also, Garruk is pretty town. We can move on to more important things like lynching scum now, rather than continuing to flood the thread with pointless back-and-forth wall posts between town. K?

I don't think there's anything wrong with Porkens so far. But you? Wagon hopping like crazy. Definitely nothing authentic in Garruk vote. It's absolutely as much a bandwagon vote as you accuse Porkens of. Moreso, really. So, bad votes and calling someone out (inaccurately) for doing something you're doing.

VOTE: Mastermind of Sin

50 Shades, Desperado, Formerfish, Sajin, Pacman, and Generic haven't even posted yet.

[Paschendale]

I'm not going give reads because I don't feel like it

And this is productive and pro-town... how?

[Paschendale]

Why should he have to give reads right this second?

He doesn't. I just think it's a strange thing to insist so vehemently. Town should be sharing our ideas. It's perfectly fine to share our complete ideas, and not half-formed ones, but to not share what thoughts we have gets us nowhere.

Generic's assertions about "fast and loose" experienced players being a towntell is trash. Town and scum do that. It's null, but when we see the results of it, it can most certainly be a scumtell.

[Paschendale]

Feel free to lynch me, just realise it will be a mislynch. But I'm VT so you don't lose a PR at least.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of that, either.

[Paschendale]

I often start slow, especially in bigger games. I also often garner a few votes for it. Nacho has seen this and should know better. That's all I have to say about the votes on me.

Also, "slow" in this game means starting the second biggest wagon, a wagon that Purple hopped on quite happily. Food for thought.

Generic, Prana, and MoS are the scummiest looking so far.

[Paschendale]

So 50, apparently it's okay for you to vote without strong justification in early game, but it's not okay for me to do it? They're "not a big deal", but you're voting me for doing it. Make up your mind.

[Paschendale]

I voted you because of you consistently making surface accusations and having an odd push on NS that you explained away as "RVS" even though it didn't look like RVS at all. Neither of these things are things that I've done.

So yes, for the slow start, then. "Surface accusations" because no one has done anything more telling yet, and an RVS vote that had a little bit of seriousness, but not a lot. Gee, that's what the beginning of the game is. I don't pretend to more confidence in early reads than I actually have, unlike some people (not a swipe at you) who insist that their initial reads are perfect. What you're describing is exactly a slow start. You're voting me for taking my time in the beginning and not pretending that my reads are stronger than they actually are. That's not scumhunting you're doing, that's simply "who can I push around for not being as agressive as me." It's lazy and it's counterproductive.

[Paschendale]

Generic, Prana, or MoS

[Paschendale]

VOTE: PranaDevil

MoS can wait for now, especially since he's decided to just clam up.

[Paschendale]

VOTE: PranaDevil

MoS can wait for now, especially since he's decided to just clam up.

This vote is garbage. Justify it.

You have to say anything this game that wasn't garbage. Please, be a good role model.

For those who aren't Desperado and are curious, Prana has been parked on me the whole time, yet has no actual reasons for this vote. Instead, Prana is courting support for every other wagon, trying to get on everyone's good side, without actually believing anything they're saying. The critique that he's playing to popular opinion is correct, despite the snarky denial. Lots of talky talky from Prana, but not sticking his neck out for anything.

[Paschendale]

question. in what world is this the proper response, if anything that should make you want to pursue a read more. Why did you back off?

Because arguing for a lynch that everyone else disagrees with is kind of a waste of time. And, as I've said, my reads aren't terribly strong yet. Which is, of course, why I'm being wagoned.

It's pretty obvious to anyone who is giving real consideration to the game that I'm not a good candidate for scum right now. MoS is, but so few people are willing to place a vote there.

I agree that Maenara is playing careful and avoiding making any committing posts. Going back on her few reads in the same sentence she makes them? Not great. Certainly not the most worthy of a wagon, though.

I don't like her Fish vote. Did she even mention Fish beforehand? (Spoiler: no) Why this vote? But it does mainly seem like the more agressive players are just attacking the elss agressive ones, and this is forming the basis of most of the wagons thus far. Some lazy players (and possibly some scum) are joining these wagons to look active. That's kind of, you know, stupid. And unlikely to lead to a town win. (Wrote this before getting to Maenara's latest post, and her reaction pretty much confirms my position on this wagon. Attacking the players who are slower out of the gate is a terribad way to try to find scum, except maybe by looking at who sheeps such awful wagons.)

Oh look, Desperado is wagon hopping again. Guy's just full of conviction. He's one of the lazy or scum crowd. Either way, a detriment to town. Notscience is apparently taking the same route. This is not out of character for either of them.

Also unless I notice what everyone is talking about my second time through I much prefer a Pasch wagon to Maenara one.

Hint: They're both really bad wagons.

[Paschendale]

Notscience made me happy for two whole posts. And then Caledvotewhat?

Sadface.

[Paschendale]

I would love to refute the attacks on me, but there's basically nothing to refute. A couple of empty gut feelings and some like Maenara's, which basically come down to lack of any better idea. I'll probably end up the "information lynch" today. Which is sad, because I'm pretty sure it's mostly town driven and won't yield much information.

Pac, why Minnesota? People have been suggesting his lynch the whole game so far, and I'm honestly baffled as to why. Could you explain it to me?

[Paschendale]

Let's make a deal.

I can quote Paschedale saying the same thing in at least 2 other games. Do we have a deal here, Paschendale-wagoniers?

And they were bad reasons and I was town. But either way, what does having a stock phrase to describe a situation that has occurred more than once have to do with my alignment? Listen to Pacman. He was in those games, too. Day 1 wagons on me like this are always mislynches.

[Paschendale]

I like a Generic lynch, but SpyreX's reasons do not thrill me. I like a Generic lynch more for him being unfocused, having weak reads, and doing a lot of yapping.

VOTE: Generic

[Paschendale]

You like to follow the hot wagon at the time don't you pasch...

NS was an RVS vote. No one else was voting for MoS. Prana's wagon certainly wasn't hot. And I'm the third vote on you.

If that's the best you've got, then I feel even better about voting for you.

@Porkens: If you want someone dead, vote for them. Don't try to pass off accountability by asking for someone else to do it.

[Paschendale]

I do not like day 1 lurker lynches, and that is what a Caled wagon looks like to me.

Scum, please continue trying to lynch me so that town can hang you tomorrow. If that's the best way for me to contribute to my team, so be it. At this point, pretty much everything I do is being labeled as scummy. Please scum, keep piling on. Town, it's okay to have a Pasch mislynch today, because you can pick out the scum on the wagon that will, in hindsight, be obviously terrible.

[Paschendale]

Pasch is town, and that wagon is hilariously scumdriven. caled, the secondary wagon, is also bad. The PranaDevil wagon also is bad. The other 2-vote wagons are on town, too.

I'm curious, then. If my wagon is scum driven, but the wagons on Prana, Maenara, and Generic are on town, then why aren't you voting for Parama, Hiraki, or Pecanpie? One or more of them, by your own assertion, must be scum driving the wagon. Why not pursue them? That's some serious dissonance between your words and your actions, and looks like passing up a good chance to kill scum. Instead... Porkens? Why?

[Paschendale]

2.) A reason why generic is town that isn't some form of nonsense.

I'm p sure I've already said this doesn't sound like scum-generic from my meta with him

But ya kno, Keep it up.

If a meta case is all you have, you shouldn't rely on it.

[Paschendale]

Town aligned but not pro-town? That sounds like a big steaming pile of bullshit.

[Paschendale]

MoS is still a good vote. He's two-faced.

Generic is also still a good vote.

I don't understand the Morph votes. Someone want to fill me in?

NS isn't really arguing well in favor of Generic. It's much more buddying than good arguing.

[Paschendale]

I'm really not (for a change) seeing the Hiraki scum. That said, I usually find Hiraki to be pretty unreadable. He's usually just a pain in the ass all the time and obstructs the game, but he's really not doing that here. This is a much more levelheaded and reasoned Hiraki. Does that mean town? Does that mean scum? I don't buy that acting differently than usual is a scumtell.

I'm interested to see where this wagon goes, but not interested in joining it right now.

[Paschendale]

Why should we ignore meta arguments in your mind? You call MoS a good vote, and Generic a good vote. Is MoS bussing his partner on day 1?

We shouldn't ignore them. We just shouldn't hyperfocus on them. They're useful to help an argument, but when they're the crux of one, the arguments tend to be wrong. MoS might be bussing Generic. I don't know. I try to avoid associative tells before anyone has flipped.

I'm not seeing scum from Hiraki. Want to expound on your reasons?

[Paschendale]

For the sake of a deadline lynch I'm willing to vote Hiraki, but the wagon's putting a bad taste in my mouth all the same. As a Generic counter-wagon would.

So what wouldn't?

What makes sense to me about pasch is the reactions of other players and that his wagon never really went anywhere despite how scummy his posts looked to me. That, and nacho being tweaked that my initial reads looked too easy.

It's because I'm not very good at large games. There's so many voices and it's hard to get a clear narrative about anyone. I get lynched right away and I never get the chance to practice. I get as far as "what the hell is going on" and then apparently that's a scumtell, so I'm dead right away. The one time I wasn't lynched, I was a lover and my partner was NK'd. I don't say this as some kind of AtE. I say it to explain where I'm coming from. I seriously have no idea about most of the players' alignments. 75% of the posts read as fluff and meta arguments between players who have played together for years, and in hydras that I can't keep track of. I don't see the reasoning behind most people's reads in this game. There's just so much noise and I don't really engage in banter, which is why it looks like I'm not trying.

That's why my wagon didn't go anywhere. Because I'm just not following most of what's going on. Most everyone looks to just be throwing darts to pick out their votes, people disappear for ten pages at a time, and people (especially you and 50 shades) spent about 10 pages babbling back and forth, seemingly about nothing. I'd happily lynch you for making noise and saying nothing, but other people apparently see content in it. So, I don't know what the fuck most of you are talking about most of the time, but when I do have some reads, I'm pursuing them. I meant it and justified it when I pursued MoS, and I mean it now on Generic. I meant it when I said that the Manaera wagon was bad, too.

So, I didn't get lynched because I look like town to anyone who isn't primarily playing this game via banter. I don't do that, and banter is not a towntell, despite how much people in these big games seem to think it is.

[Paschendale]

I don't suppose we could do a flashlynch on epm

See, and I have no idea why you'd want to do this. I just ISO's EPM, and there's nothing subversive there. Spell out a case, maybe point out some interactions that would make it a good information lynch, then we'll talk. But this sort of thing looks like just picking a name out of a hat. That's not gonna do us any good d2 when there's nothing to learn from the flip.

[Paschendale]

@Pasch

[...] do you understand that bantering is part of how people

obtain

their reads?

This. Definitely this.

It's also how you obscure any legitimate ideas with fluff and nonsense. This game long since crossed the line from useful discussion to babbling.

Interesting aside, literally none of my questions this game have been answered. When I press people for reasons, they just brush me off. And then they wonder why I'm less engaged as this game goes on.

[Paschendale]

Okay, I'll be the dummy and ask... Why vote Pecan? I'm really tired of trying to guess why people are casting their votes.

[Paschendale]

I'm hesitant to join a wagon that no one is actually making an argument in support of.

Majiffy asks for feels. I don't want feels. I want facts, analysis, and conclusions.

[Paschendale]

I'm hesitant to join a wagon that no one is actually making an argument in support of.

Majiffy asks for feels. I don't want feels. I want facts, analysis, and conclusions.

Because that never happened like 8 posts earlier.

Why do you suck so hard?

I'm sorry, I didn't you know were still in the fourth grade and didn't have anything besides a couple of buzzwords. If you don't have a case, just admit it.

One comment of "I don't like this" does not a case make.

[Paschendale]

I am, too. Nor do I see any reason to doubt the RB claim.

VOTE: Spyrex

[Paschendale]

The thing that unsettles me is there could have been a doc shot also, that person would not only know there is a chance garruks theory is wrong but that they actually stopped the kill.

I don't want a doc to step forward, I just think we have potentially found scum amongst those two shots and yet the focus has been entirely on spyrex

Without knowing who the doc is or who they protected, how exactly do we use that idea to find scum? Unless you really do want a doc to claim, all you're doing is discounting Garruk's idea and then supporting it, all in the same sentence. That's a lot of waffling.

I say we force Spyrex to hard claim. If he is town, #2 is probably true and he will have protection.

This actually sounds rather reasonable.

The "Let's make Spy claim cause there might be protection for him if he turns out to actually be fucking important" is a good idea and all, except it isn't. Say that GR is town and is the RB, if Spy is also town and turns out to be a PR as well then the doc (if one even exists in this game) would have to choose between two PRs to save. I know that would be the ultimate wifom but why even let it get to that. We don't force Spy to claim, the hypothetical doc saves GR and forces scum to take a shot in the dark. Hell we could even have GR block Spy again to test his scumminess. And I know that scum could nk to set Spy up, in theory, but I would trade a nk and another night of info for one life, and Spy could always claim tomorrow.

Spy already claimed PR pretty solidly, just not WHICH PR. He's going to be a target. That dilemma for the doc is going to exist either way. Or rather, it already exists.

Also wifomy. Spy could be a vt trying to seem like a PR to draw attention away from GR, or he could be legit. Is scum going to waste a nk on someone who may simply be vanilla? Are they going to worry about a potential watcher camping out on Spy to catch a killer? Could we have another protective role that could cover both. The possibilities of it all are endless.

What difference would this make? Spy can just as easily be a VT who lies about a claim as a VT who soft-claims. Neither of the reasons you're giving for Spy not claiming make any difference. The cat is already out of the bag.

[Paschendale]

Despite just blasting Formerfish for opposing Spy fullclaiming, I kind of like Majiffy's reasons not to. They're much better reasons. I also like his lynchpool and his criticisms of Pecan. Go Jiffy. So much win!

But Fitty Shades is right in 1443. The softclaim doesn't make much difference. The damage is already done. Now there's two outed PRs stretching any protection we might have even thinner.

That said, I'm not seeing much reason to believe Spy's claim at all. That's the one argument Jiffy doesn't make. Yeah, maybe it's better to leave it soft, but it doesn't seem particularly true.

Pecan wagon looks like an okay counterwagon, though. My scumread on MoS has been wavering for a while. I don't know how I'd feel about such a wagon, even though it's in Jiffy's pool.

[Paschendale]

That said, I'm not seeing much reason to believe Spy's claim at all. That's the one argument Jiffy doesn't make. Yeah, maybe it's better to leave it soft, but it doesn't seem particularly true.

I haven't claimed anything and you already don't believe it? Thats a pretty neat trick.

If you really need the claim from me, I will but I'd rather not. The one thing I will say I'm pretty damn positive Garruk is telling the truth and town.

Are you denying that the intent of this post was to claim that you are a PR? Why would anyone be reluctant to claim VT?

[Paschendale]

Why would he bring up claiming at all? No one asked him for one. He's not close to a lynch. Why are you choosing to latch onto improbable and nonsensical explanations rather than likely and reasonable ones? There is no reason to even mention it other than to dissuade us from voting for him. Stop being so smug. You have no reason to be.

[Paschendale]

There is no good reason to bring up claiming if you're not going to claim and no one asked you for one. It just muddles the discussion, like is happening now. Spy only did it to discourage votes for him. Why are you so deadset on defending him without offering any reason nor even suggesting why such a claim would be true or useful? I am not doing your work for you.

[Paschendale]

I mean if this is "he's scum because he doesn't want to be lynched" just go ahead and say so so we can move on.

No, it's "Spy is probably lying and doing nothing to make his claim seem credible or compelling, and a fake claim at this juncture looks much more scum motivated than town motivated." Apparently this concept is too difficult for some people. Weird.

Admittedly it's probably more likely that there was some successful protect than that the RB not only hit scum but hit the scum they picked to make the kill so I'm not vote-parking, just to be clear.
Actually pecan is a good vote.
Hm.

Unless there are multiple blockers or protectors, aren't the odds exactly the same? One PR picking the one correct target?

Nvm, a likely scenario just occurred to me.

Can you expand on this scenario?

[Paschendale]

Maenara did not look scummy. Micc was barely a blip on the radar. DV does look kinda scummy, but not enough to vote.

I still support the roleblock-lead lynch of Spy. I think it's the most likely course to lead us to lynching scum. And I think that one of our extremely active players who have essentially stopped that wagon is definitely Spy's scumbuddy.

[Paschendale]

Alright, Nacho. I'll trust you.

VOTE: DeasVail

But I do want to ask, what do you think about Spy. Why isn't that good a choice?

[Paschendale]

I have never played a game with you when you weren't in a hydra, Mollie. I know literally nothing about what you sound like. I also don't really pay that much attention to things like that.

[Paschendale]

I already went over some stuff in Porkens' posts! =|

I really don't care if it's popp or Porkens but I doubt I'll want to lymch outside of those two.

Well you're not trying very hard to convince anyone to join you on those wagons, are you?

[Paschendale]

V/LA this weekend

[Paschendale]

My head is still spinning a bit from this sudden turn on the DV wagon. 50, you fought for it really hard and then one whiney complaining post is enough to switch gears? DV has added nothing but waffling and equivocation and his supposed points to defend himself were little more than "I'm not scum so people who suspect me must be scum", which we all know is nonsense. I preferred the Spy lynch to begin with, but I was willing to play ball. Now, this wagon was apparently so flimsy that it wasn't genuine to begin with. What's the deal?

It's mostly due to my extreme intense boredom with this game. I lurked out the first part of yesterday and likely will continue to until around day 4/5 or I die, one of the two.

I do care about lynching SpyreX, because I have a fairly obvious guilty on him and he's continued to not die, because of a stupid alignment-neutral claim.

This is one of the few posts I actually trust right now. Majiffy, 50, Morph... they're muddying everything and flailing wildly. I have no confidence at all in their reads anymore. They muck everything up with fluff and meta and jokes and bickering and the result is incredibly weak wagons. They need to shut the hell up and stop bloating this thread and stop pretending that their half-baked ideas are anything more than that.

Garruk's claim and results look genuine and are reasonably likely to be correct. I think lynching Spy based on them is a good choice. I don't think 50's new vote on Spy is town-motivated at all. I think Pecan's accusation of EPM look genuine, though it needs to be expanded on. I don't agree with it, though, because I think EPM is pretty genuine, too.

So, Spy should die. EPM and Pecan should live. 50, Morph, and Majiffy have squandered all their townpoints. I should not have trusted you, Mollie. I won't make that mistake again.

VOTE: Spyrex

[Paschendale]

"I'm not scum so people who suspect me must be scum"

I don't see where I say anything like this.

Your "read list" was just people on your wagon, and you try to paint the wagon as scum motivated. None of those reads contribute to a case and you're not even particularly pushing one.

oh wait now I see what you mean about pasch.

No, you don't. You're just making shit up as you go along. It's hurting town's scumhunting. Stop it.

I'd only consider lynching DV if we lynch 50 Shades after he flips town.

That idea is starting to grow on me.

[Paschendale]

The DV wagon really does not get me excited, but at this point, there's been sufficient discussion about both that and Spy's wagons that either one is probably fine. There will be a lot to go on. I still think that Spy is more likely scum than DV, but not by a wide margin. Who knows, maybe they both are? For the blustering (like, by MoS), none of the other wagons are appealing or likely to go anywhere. Not unless someone has a genuinely fresh and exciting case to make. And considering the lack of exciting cases at all in this game, I don't expect that to happen.

I find it rather interesting to note how little analysis there really was over the Hiraki wagon, though. Given how contentious it was, I expected today's wagons to be centered around how goddawful that one was. But no one was biting. If there's another townflip today, I'll bet that the players who lead that wagon and also lead the Hiraki one are good choices to follow them to the noose.

[Paschendale]

Oh good, I didn't miss anything important while I was gone yesterday. I'm losing interest in the Spy wagon. He's not really acting all that scummy and the night result alone really shouldn't be sufficient. Everyone on it seems complacent and I feel similarly and I don't think that's a sign of a good wagon. EMP's detractors, meanwhile, are full of passion. That's a good indicator to me at the moment, but then I looked him over. I think he's right about the general consensus against Porkens. Why aren't there more votes there? Most of his posts are weak, and there are so few of them. A lot of his talk is about PRs, and sure he gives lists, but he doesn't back most of his reads up with any thoroughness. I find myself agreeing with EPM a lot more than agreeing with his detractors.

VOTE: Porkens

[Paschendale]

T-Bone one was a better case, though he doesn't feel particularly scummy to me. MoS one was nitpicky and weak, and I lean scummier on MoS.

[Paschendale]

I feel pretty good jumping right back on the Porkens wagon for now. I'm kinda drunk right now and I'm going to have to go V/LA until Wednesday, as I sort out the final bits of my move to NYC. I'll try to keep up, but now is not the time.

[Paschendale]

Okay, my travels are over and I shan't be disappearing so much.

Definitely feel good about placing my vote back on Porkens.

VOTE: Porkens

[Paschendale]

T-Bone > DV

[Paschendale]

Spy... just no. Don't OMGUS. Vote someplace actually useful.

[Paschendale]

So much bickering...

Pecan and T-Bone, wanna give us a condensed version of your reasons for your current votes?

[Paschendale]

I think MoS has successfully shed the scumread from yesterday.

Also, why does a claimed town RBer survive the night?

Good question. Possibly to trick us into lynching him? Or possibly because he's not a RBer at all.

[Paschendale]

Wow, 10 pages to catch up on. Here's what Pasch thinks:

With only one nightkill in two days, multiball seems extremely unlikely. Normally, this would make me immediately think that T-Bone is lying, but suppose the only scum faction is werewolves and there is no mafia? Either way, I think either our cop claim or our seer claim is likely false.

Two docs also doesn't make a lot of sense. Even with one of thme having a lover.

So, out of Porkens/Spy and T-Bone/Pecan, I expect there to be a scum in each pair. Porkens has been the best choice since before all this claiming, and still is. I'm on the fence about T-Bone, though I find his claim superficially credible. Vote stays on Porkens.

[Paschendale]

Two docs also doesn't make a lot of sense. Even with one of thme having a lover.

There are three claimed doctors.

Who's the third? I thought it was just Porkens and Spyrex.

[Paschendale]

So sue me, I missed one. Be useful and point it out or just shut the fuck up.

[Paschendale]

Two docs also doesn't make a lot of sense. Even with one of thme having a lover.

There are three claimed doctors.

Who's the third? I thought it was just Porkens and Spyrex.

Also Former Fish. It's been counterclaimed twice.

Thanks. Reading all the claims in quick succession, I mixed up Spy and FF into one thought. Clearly, making a mistake like that is a very malicious and duplicitous thing to do.

On the subject of the three doc claims, Spy didn't tell us who he protected on night 1, but his crumbs actually look legit. Of course, someone could fake crumbs to use later, so I don't think that crumbs really make much difference. But Porkens would have us believe that scum tried to kill Majiffy twice in a row? Majiffy is a loose cannon, able to help town or scum. I don't think they were that desperate to kill him.

Three docs seems like nonsense, a doc/lover seems reasonable, and Fish's claimed actions look better than Porkens'.

Also, agree with AJ about not revealing the lover. We don't want that extra liability.

[Paschendale]

I'm good with Garruk going first. Of the four, he's the one I trust the least.

50 is playing that technically correct game where he (Nacho) pushes town into mislynches that he does when he's scum.

VOTE: Garruk

[Paschendale]

Spy, your play improved after your wagon lost steam. Also, you're right and 50 is the best lynch for today. But if Garruk is going to try to pull something (and wanting his claim to be last to disguise a faked night action), that's seriously suspicious and I don't want that to happen.

[Paschendale]

Yeah, that looks right.

VOTE: Empking

[Paschendale]

Oh, are we wasting a day lynching me because I'm not in the buddy club of people who'll hand each other townreads?

Explain this to me. Three people vote for Empking. None give a reason. My vote is the only one that people care about. And yet, no one's got an articulate reason for why. Pecan's reason is just an attempt to prevent me from voting for him, but I wasn't going to anyway. The Empking slot is basically a lurker slot, and there was a lot of discussion of Agent M before, but given some of the inane wagons that have happened in this game, maybe a lurker lynch is a good idea. Town certainly doesn't need help turning on its own, so maybe scum is sitting back and letting us have at each other. Porkens was kinda doing that, too.

Also, Pecan is not scum. MoS still might be. Pecan is, however, just as obviously out of better ideas as I am, but thinks that Fish's empty bravado makes for a safer sheep than the more questionable Notsci and Desperado.

I mean, waste a day on this if you want. I'm not overly enjoying this game. But I'd prefer to lynch scum, and I am actually trying to do that.

[Paschendale]

fuck off, if you are gonna play the emo tantrum card in a game where the master of that play is lurking you had better make it worthwhile.

Yep, emo tantrum. Except, you know, neither of those things, since I instead addressed the flaws and presumed reasoning behind attacking me. But yeah, if you're just going to misrep and sheep stupid votes, be my guest.

[Paschendale]

I apologize for derailing things when I'm the subject of discussion, but let's be honest, I'm a terrible wagon.

But on to derailing. I'm moving tomorrow and will be V/LA for a bit. Probably until at least the weekend.

So let's say

V/LA until Sunday

. I'll be back by then, assuming that my internet gets hooked up on time.

[Paschendale]

Or, you know, Pecan, I post a lot when I have theories I want to pursue. I had a lot to say in favor of lynching Porkens, didn't I? I just don't tend to check the site more than once or twice a day, and sometimes not every day. Pecan, if you think I'm scum, share some reasons. If you give townreads to some players, share the reasons. Maybe after some discussion you won't hold the same positions. An argument from ignorance is not a good place to go from.

Also, you know, I tend to get mad and condemn wagons on me because they're wrong. You've seen me get mislynched. Ever seen me get lynched as scum? It hasn't happened many times. I can think of two times, and once was because I was found out with night actions, and the other I was hard bussed by a teammate. As you say, I get mislynched a lot. So what about me don't people get that they keep reading me wrong? It's obviously playstyle, not actions. So what about my actions bothers you? I'd be happy to address them when I get back.

[Paschendale]

Checking in from a friend's internet, so I'm not really back until I get my own hooked up.

Pecan and I have played three games together before (Open 536, Vanger, and Mini 1368). I was town and had serious wagons on me (one resulting in a mislynch) in all of them. He has never seen me as scum. He is pushing my lynch for the exact same reasons (tone, mainly) that were done in those other games. He knows I can be mislynched for my playstyle and is going for exactly that. Empking can wait. Pecan is absolutely scum and is picking tactics from our previous games to get me killed. Town Pecan should realize that wagons on me are usually just over my tone.

This is why his reasons include my not being on Hiraki's wagon. It's crazy, but I've played with Hiraki enough to be able to read him now and know the difference between his normal "pain in the ass"-ness, and when he's doing it on purpose as scum. His "PoE townblocs" are sheer nonsense. There are very few players who could be safely assumed town, and even so, locking someone in as definitely town in your mind is a bad idea. Also I'm not sure why he calls me passive after Open 536, which we just played. I was loud as hell in that game. The part that is missing of his description of my style is that I also get active when I have a firm suspect. That I have been iffy on a lot of cases this game has been the main reason for my quiet-ness.

If I do die today, Pecan should absolutely be next. He KNOWS this is a mislynch. He's watched it happen three times. It's absolutely intentional.

VOTE: Pecan

PeEdit: Oh yeah... "lurking". I'm "lurking" because I'm, you know, moving.

[Paschendale]

Why is all of this coming out now? Pecan has been pushing for your lynch since before your 2915 in which you definitively state "pecan is not scum." So what's up?

It's coming out now because it's relevant now. Pecan was being lazy and stupid about attacking me before. Now he's pushing articulated reasons, but they're the exact same ones that he has watched get lobbed at me as town three times. Before I thought he was just wrong. Now it's clear that it's intentional. Pecan isn't stupid. He knows exactly what he's doing.

Still no internet of my own, so posting will be sporadic still.

[Paschendale]

Oh yeah, I never did claim, did I? I'm Johnny Cash - Hurt. I'm a VT. I'm very disappointed, cuz I thought I would get a vig ability or something like that.

[Paschendale]

Well, that happened quickly.

Because I've been quiet lately (still settling into my new apartment, still no internet), I'll at least toss out a reads list quickly.

-Town-
Morph
AJ (AJ always seems pretty town to me, though, so this isn't as strong as it could be)
Spyrex
Empking (Because I believe that he and Spyrex are lovers, and cross-faction lovers makes little sense to me. Unless there are 4 scum and it's a ploy to keep us from lynching them.)
Desperado

-Could be town, but might not be-
MoS
Formerfish
Generic
DV
Notscience
Mykyonan (My completely null read on him was making me consider joining the wagon on him while catching up.)
Generic

-Leaning scum-
Garruk
Pecan

[Paschendale]

Oh look, two votes on me with no reasons. Want to make cases or do you just like mislynches?

Pecan is still scum and should be our lynch. Period.

VOTE: Pecan

Also, hi everybody! I've finally got my new place set up with internet so I can actually check in more than once every few days. Now that I'm back, be smart and lynch scum instead of me.

[Paschendale]

It's almost like you're blatantly ignoring the cases that were already posted against you...wonder why. Why the fuck would I waste time regurgitating the case that has already been made, unrefuted, when anyone with half a brain can see it for themselves where it was originally posted?

So no, no case. Just jumping on Pecan's bullshit. You his scumbuddy?

[Paschendale]

I find myself more inclined to believe Spy and Emp than to believe Fish.

But Pecan is still the best bet. He's spinning a lot of webs that would be delightfully useful to find his allies. Garruk and MoS are also good choices. Everyone else is a pretty lousy choice.

[Paschendale]

I find myself more inclined to believe Spy and Emp than to believe Fish.

But Pecan is still the best bet. He's spinning a lot of webs that would be delightfully useful to find his allies. Garruk and MoS are also good choices. Everyone else is a pretty lousy choice.

So in your world I cced my scum partner and was instrumental in their lynching. Did I sum that up correctly?

No. In my world, you're less credible than Spyrex and Empking. Did you notice how you weren't on the list of people I think should be lynched? People were discussing the possibilities that one claim was false. I said which I believe more. I get Pecan trying (and failing) to spin it, but I thought you could read. You can see in black and white what I said. Why are you believing Pecan's obvious fabrication?

[Paschendale]

You said that you believe Spy to be more credible. I don't see how that clashes with my question. If you think he is credible then you think I could be scum. Do you really think as scum I would cc and railroad my partner?

I wouldn't rule out anything.

I don't believe they are lovers. I believe they are the last two scum.

If mos flips scum however I am happy to admit I was totally wrong.

Either / or

It is likely one of the two. Can you give independent cases on Spy and Emp?

[Paschendale]

To elaborate, I haven't seen a good case on Spy since the wagon on day 2, and even that wasn't fantastic in retrospect.

[Paschendale]

You said that you believe Spy to be more credible. I don't see how that clashes with my question. If you think he is credible then you think I could be scum. Do you really think as scum I would cc and railroad my partner?

I wouldn't rule out anything.

In other words, you're agreeing with my dramatised "fabrication". You can't call me a liar while confirming what I say about your posts is true.

You should be eating crow and you should also answer my #3459.

No, you're being intentionally misleading. You're saying I was focusing on Fish, when I was really talking about Spy and Emp. You're a liar and putting words in my mouth to attempt to discredit me.

And in 3459 you're just putting more words in my mouth. All you've got is "did you say that thing that you clearly didn't say?"

Desp, is Deas a PoE target or do you have a new theory?

[Paschendale]

Pecan, your idea of scummy is nothing more than that I'm changing my ideas with new information. And quoting a prediction where I was right? 700 posts ago, I had a pretty good sense of what was up. But I didn't "shift from T-Bone flipping scum also means that you're scum". Who the hell evaluates lynch targets like that? That's insane troll logic. Each person gets evaluated separately. If you don't want me calling you scum, don't pour all of your energy into an incredibly obvious mislynch. You're so obsessed with inconsistencies... you do know that town are often inconsistent, right? Because we're going off of very incomplete information and constantly re-evaluating our positions. That's normal. And trying to lynch people for the normal process of scumhunting... that's pretty scummy.

Not that you're actually doing these evaluations yourself. All you talk about is linking people together. You're not looking at people individually, but trying to put them into pairs or groups. It would be fine if you did this a little, but it's apparently your only tactic. If I list three possible suspects, am I saying they're all allies? No. I'm saying that they, individually, are the most suspect. Can you wrap your mind around separate suspicions that don't revolve around each other? Apparently not. In your case, "reading between the lines" is making shit up that I'm not saying. If I was saying that people were allied, I would be saying it crystal clear.

Pecan's shoddy tactics, his intentional obscuring of pertinent details, his lies, and his awful attacks on me paint the picture of someone who is not trying to help town win, but rather someone who is pushing for mislynches.

Couple this with his voting records from previous days. Pecan's votes can be pretty reliably found on whichever wagon is currently gaining steam, and then quickly taken off when it doesn't look like a safe mislynch. He doesn't fight for them very hard, with the only exceptions being EPM on day 2, who was one of the main people calling for Porkens' head, and me now. His contributions of Porkens and T-Bone's wagons look little more than hopping on inevitable busses of his teammates. Even while on the Myko wagon, he wasn't fighting for it. Pecan's votes look like someone who wanted towncred for bussing teammates, and nothing to be held against him later for his support of mislynches.

[Paschendale]

Backing off your inane case on me when it didn't work buys you nothing, Pecan. You've been arguing with me instead of actually supporting the wagon you're on. That's your whole deal. Stick your vote somewhere safe and coast along until town does your work for you. It's a self-preserving, low-risk way of playing.

I don't like this DV wagon at all. Pecan's "case" on DV is absolute shit. It's mainly predicated on associative tells with me, and I'm alive and unflipped. Pecan has barely mentioned DV prior to today. What few times he does are almost always in the context of trying to tie groups of players together. He has offered no case on why DV individually would be scum. Even this vote is a "good place to park". It's at L-2 and his vote is only there to "keep an eye on the slot". Even his mention of DV, one of his largest, in 3442, is again associatives with me. This is a scum driven wagon. 100%.

And then to top it off, Fish's and Generic's votes gives no reasons, and Desp should know better than to trust Pecan's shit ideas. Get off this bad wagon and lynch Pecan.

[Paschendale]

I think the wagon on you sucks, DV, but you're not helping.

Disinterest is not a stumtell, though, and I do not think this wagon is on the level.

[Paschendale]

You all disappoint me, so very much.

[Paschendale]

That DV wagon was, as I said yesterday, extremely scum driven. It was crap from start to finish. That's where we should look for scum today. Pecan is scum. MoS' hammer had incredible amounts of equivocation. Fish is fishy as well, but harder to pin down.

Fish, make your case on Garruk.

[Paschendale]

I'm actually pretty down with the Garruk lynch.

VOTE: Garruk

L-2, I think.

[Paschendale]

I'm actually pretty down with the Garruk lynch.

VOTE: Garruk

L-2, I think.

[Paschendale]

Pecan, I'm not relying on associative tells. Scum don't always act in concert. It's often a good tactic not to. Hell, it would be a good tactic for you and I to both be scum and be attacking each other. One of us flipping scum would lend a lot of town cred to the other. I'm evaluating each slot individually and not relying on assumption of what scum would or would not do towards one another.

Morph, Fish, go fuck yourselves and your haughty attitudes. You've been voting for town over and over again and I've at least had the good sense to oppose the bad wagons that have lynched town. That you have any idea who is or isn't scum is a nonsensical assertion. You're fumbling around in the dark at best and if you'd listened to me, maybe we wouldn't have lynched town the last two days. You have zero credibility right now, so stow the arrogance.

[Paschendale]

At this point, everyone should declare everything they can.

[Paschendale]

GR is a vastly superior lynch to Spy. I think there's too much focus on the various claims and not enough on simple conduct. Night powers aren't going to win this game for town, and scum can lie about any claim they like. I think that we're missing the forest for the trees.

[Paschendale]

Pecan and MoS. But I doubt any of you will listen to me anyway. This has been a dull game and I don't have walls of quotes to back up my impressions. A good case could be made on everyone, but they would be cherry picked. Overall impressions of who has been the most genuine and whose scumhunting has been lies, it's Pecan and MoS. Take that and do with it what you will.

[Paschendale]

And they aimed for formerfish?

Bullshit. One of the lovers is almost certainly scum.

Fish does seem an odd choice. Do you think it was because he was harmless? Maybe he was onto something that the scum didn't want him onto? Or do you think he simply chosen for being difficult to lynch?

So apparently instead of blocking formerfish and killing spyrex for two town players in one night the scum team chose to keep the lovers alive for... Wifom?

The theory of saving them for a double kill seems more sound.

When would scum have killed MoS?

Why would scum kill one of their own?

Pasch, Pecan and Emp I could see. I'm not rock hard solid but even carving around there's not many other scenarios that make sense.

One of those three is scum. Hint: It's the middle one.

I'm not rock hard anywhere. I think the play is pasch. But I'm not rushing anything.

Please, work through whatever ideas are leading you to this conclusion. I promise you'll find substantial flaws in them. It's MoS and Pecan. And it's so insanely obvious to me that I don't know how you're not getting it. It's especially obvious with MoS. He's not trying to figure anything out. He's looking for angles. It's in every post he makes.

[Paschendale]

Thats fine and brings up what my concern is:

EVERYONE seems ok with Pasch thats talking. Which has me more than a little worried.

Probably because the attacks on me are atrocious, and when I do give someone a townread it's for good reasons. The only reason I'm still alive is because of how I keep pissing louder people off, so I'm a viable mislynch.

[Paschendale]

Whatever, just get it over with and lose the game. I've never seen a town more committed to not lynching scum.

[Paschendale]

Oh, a prod.... How meaningful. The only reason I'm not voting myself to just get it over with is so that when I flip, my wagon will likely have more scum on it. Not that town isn't hellbent on mislynching me and not listening to anything I say, despite my actually having been right pretty often.

[Paschendale]

@peng

You and morph weren't on it.

Which means scum are bussing.

I also endorse a hammer, because when he was town and they were mylo lynching him he kicked and fought a lot harder than this.

It's hard to care so hard about a game where literally no one has listened to me the entire time. I kinda don't give a fuck anymore. As I said, not self-voting cuz I'm playing to my pro-town win con, but not that excited about shouting into the wind anymore.

[Paschendale]

I think Empking is the pretty obvious bus here, after SpyreX and I baited the shit out of it.

I've been consistently voting Pasche for most since I joined.

Doesn't tunnel behavior like this raise a red flag for anyone? That's not scumhunting. Scumhunting requires updating your positions based on new information.

[Paschendale]

Paschendale, why do you only have two scum reads?

Because town is playing terribad. Seriously, how screwed are they going to be when I flip town?

[Paschendale]

How does our supposedly bad play impact your opinion of how many scum remain?

I don't have an opinion on how many scum remain. I have no reason to think it's two or to think it's three. Why are you so sure that it's three or more? And regardless, most of the play in this game is so goddamn awful that most players in it could be easily of either alignment. I only have two townreads, too. Do you think I think that there are five scum? But the worst part is how much time people are spending trying to figure out who my scumbuddies are. All of that will be a waste and set people up for making mistakes based on confirmation bias when I flip town.

OK then. If this is a mislynch that ends the game, well-played, scum.

VOTE: Paschendale

Far more like really horribly played, town. I wrote that response before you mislynched me, and didn't want to bother erasing it when I saw your vote. I have no doubt that town will lose this game.

[Paschendale]

I've called out bad wagons on town and opposed them even while you rushed to mislynch. If you'd listened to me at all this game, we could have avoided several of them.

[Paschendale]

I played about average, but this game continued a long trend where most people seem to simply suck at reading me, and I'm wrongly run up quite often. People don't like my style. Big games like this one are a lot less fun than smaller (12-13 player) games. Everything is way too chaotic in the beginning.

It's weird how badly MoS wants to defend this, though. Town mislynched and lost. It happens. Why do you want to make this personal?