Touhou UPick 2 - [Game Over]

[zMuffinMan]

don't target me with any abilities this game

Vote: GIF

[zMuffinMan]

actually, you can target me with stuff during the day, just don't do it at night (unless your sole goal is to confirm that it's a bad idea to target me at night)

(aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand i think i've said something similar in every fakegod game i've been in now, but he keeps trolling me so whatever)

[zMuffinMan]

i picked my character because i expected some awesome night ability/ies

instead fakegod is like, "NOPE! TROLOLOLOL!"

[zMuffinMan]

Also, miller claim bugs me because I don't remember a cop in the last one.

there was. bitmap. 1-shot. used it on me n1 i think

[zMuffinMan]

ilu too pieguy

[zMuffinMan]

i think i have a surefire way of figuring out who is scum and who is town in this game

Spoiler: please don't read this if you are scum

if you are town, answer this question: why did cirno cross the road?

respond without quoting what's inside the spoiler, i do not want scum figuring it out and i'm pretty sure they won't read it given the spoiler title

[zMuffinMan]

My issue is we're pseudo-MCing on page 2

And yet noone seems to be questioning why

claiming/hinting at negative utility aspects of roles is hardly mass claiming

[zMuffinMan]

also fakegod likes duplicity (e.g. see me+nati both being investigation immune last game, or the clusterfuck of role overlaps in the last viscon game) so even if they did have similar roles, so what?

[zMuffinMan]

pieguy

i'm town. are you town?

[zMuffinMan]

@Muffin, yeah there are a lot of duplicates

if you know he likes duplicates, then why does it bother you?

eh

sure

[zMuffinMan]

OK GIF

Unvote
Vote: pieguy
Unvote
Vote: GIF

[zMuffinMan]

my votes are always serious

knowing everyone's flavour is reminding me of your role in the first upick where you could detective every spell card that was used - i don't think it's a town role

do you think gif is town or something?

and i dunno about sakura. #83 is the only post that bothers me so far

[zMuffinMan]

except he didn't detect night actions used, just the spell cards used (e.g. flavour)

[zMuffinMan]

what do you think of his early posting?

most of it was fluff

i dunno why he asked me to vote you (it doesn't look like he's scum reading you?)

[zMuffinMan]

The difference is that the spellcard thing was 1-shot and is possible to miss some of the spell cards while my info is conplete

ok?

still not a town role

[zMuffinMan]

He's being awfully open about it if he's scum.

indeed. he did the same thing in the first game though with a PGO claim that he didn't technically need to be open about and for a while i considered it a town claim because of that

[zMuffinMan]

he's not giving any thoughts on the game and he's claimed something that i don't think makes a lot of sense as a town role

[zMuffinMan]

why is knowing everyone's flavor name not make sense as a town role?

compare it to the last touhou upick and the roles there

i was a race cop who had to check race one by one each night; that is the sort of thing i'd expect in a town role, not what gif claimed

on the other hand, given this is fakegod and role madness, i could def see a scum role who can multivote and knows everyone's flavour

If flavor is alignment independent I don't see how this follows

i don't really understand what the relevance of this is, so i'm just going to pretend i do and nod sagely :nod:

[zMuffinMan]

GIF

give me your reads
give me your thoughts
tell me what you're wearing

[zMuffinMan]

he was an honorable vig

[zMuffinMan]

and hated

[zMuffinMan]

i'm pretty town

do you disagree

[zMuffinMan]

Whoever I'm unvoting are my townreads.

why did you want me to vote pieguy?

who do you think is scum?

[zMuffinMan]

will it confirm me as town?

coz you're gonna have to figure me out from day play and day cards in this game

[zMuffinMan]

But you can't see a town role that does this?

i'm not going to rule out the possibility it's a town role, i just don't think it's a town role

i'm also thinking an early mass claim in this game (like D2 maybe depending on what happens between now and then) is a good idea

[zMuffinMan]

Why are you concerned with being conf-town?

my role is such that, unless scum have X (where X counters me) and use it on me, i'm gonna be around until i'm lynched or endgame - i'd rather be conftown than have to deal with the paranoia that will inevitably surface with me regardless of how obvtown i am

what kind of question is this, anyway?

I'm not thrilled with his angle on you - it's simplistic, not based on play, and it's ONE ROLE in a HEAVY role madness game

i was basing my read on play, though (mentioned in 99 and 114), it's just the questions that keep coming up about my read were asking about gif's role. and there's only so much you can say about someone who hasn't provided content

[zMuffinMan]

I don't buy into muffin town becausae I have no scum baseline to compare him to

you didn't follow gif's game?

[zMuffinMan]

I'm basically 95% sure you are correct. Varsoon is scum.

why? and if you think that, why weren't you voting him?

[zMuffinMan]

muffin is

idk

town

ftfy

[zMuffinMan]

kagami

why varsoon scum?

[zMuffinMan]

i just realised the irony of guyinfreezer having two votes frozen

[zMuffinMan]

[zMuffinMan]

gaiden

why are you still voting hanasawa?

[zMuffinMan]

this reminds me of those posts you kept making in games like marketplace and NY169 where you kept declaring yourself "obvtown" or "this is my towngame" even though it really wasn't.

i am obvtown every game. it's just i'm obvtown and town here

it also lacks a lot of the righteous indignation I associate with whenever you say this as town (AOT - "I dare scum to try and lynch me")

that was role-related. i was a vengeful

are you using "conftown" literally here?

yes? i was assuming someone was hinting at a way of sorting me with a day ability

[zMuffinMan]

i was still obvtown there

[zMuffinMan]

lol i just realised you've only seen me be town twice pieguy, and only been town with me once?

you should have a look at the stuff i normally say when i'm town. the reason i say it when i'm scum is because i say it when i'm town

[zMuffinMan]

Unvote
Vote: Raging Bull

[zMuffinMan]

kagami,

varsoon sorts itself out if gif is telling the truth about the spellcard he just used

who else do you think is scum?

[zMuffinMan]

coz i think he's scum

[zMuffinMan]

I wouldn't put it past him to do smth like this as scum so I still wanna look into it

the timing of it made me feel it was kinda town-looking

but

actually

@sakura

did the mod inform you of anything after gif used that spellcard? (don't need to say anything more than yes or no here)

[zMuffinMan]

I didnt get anything of the sort when GiF used the spellcard.

k

coz now i'm wondering why aya gets a protective ability, and if you didn't receive anything, it could have easily been some other ability that he's claiming is protective

[zMuffinMan]

coz that's a really easy thing to lie about, given sakura didn't receive confirmation

i could easily see you claiming you gave her something, having people think you're town because you gave her something for N1, then killing her like N2 or something and coasting on it

i don't really see how you can call it fishing when i specifically told sakura not to give any additional information if she did receive something

[zMuffinMan]

it probably won't advance the game in any way

[zMuffinMan]

gif

want a present?

you have to _realllllly_ want it, though, because it's pretty amazing

if you don't, i'll have to find someone else to give it to

[zMuffinMan]

Give it to someone else.
I dont want it.

:<

[zMuffinMan]

sakura didn't use a spell card

[zMuffinMan]

I dont even know

I'm freaking out because noone's lookinig really town to me yet

Spoiler:

[zMuffinMan]

But that includes "who believes in you," which makes the point kinda null.

do you think notscience is scum?

[zMuffinMan]

wait why was i not mentioned in 308

that hurts gif

[zMuffinMan]

(i think notscience in this game is playing close to how he played in the first game and isn't showing signs of stuff he does as scum, like blatant buddying and reaching out to particular players in an effort to get them to town read him)

(so either he's imitating his town game really well here or he's town)

[zMuffinMan]

i've never seen you do it as town, but ok

then why aren't you doing it here?

[zMuffinMan]

At the same time, I liked [Gaiden's] latest post, but it's kinda meh regardless.

gonna assume this is referring to #326 and not #336, what did you like about it?

I don't really know what to do regarding muffin

you should do what everyone else does. ignore things i do that look town, say you're paranoid about me, and keep me in your null pile the entire game. seems to be what's in fashion lately.

didn't like muffin dodging Varsoons' question #263. However I can somewhat relate his vote for voting me.

not responding #263 was intentional, i was being deliberately obtuse for a couple reasons (partially because i wanted to see how you'd react to me voting you without giving any reasons, and partially because i wanted to see what varsoon would do when i ignored him)

on that note, seeing as i never actually gave a reason for my vote, i don't really get the last part here. what exactly are you saying you can relate to?

[zMuffinMan]

you're scum who's scared as fuck at the start of the game aren't you

vote: RB

inb4 RB + GIF scumteam

don't be scum, pieguy

[zMuffinMan]

you're doing that thing you do when you're scum where i can't follow your read progressions

what's the RB+GIF thing based on?

[zMuffinMan]

you saying that implies you think other reads don't make sense, right? if so, which ones?

no, not other ones

just how you went from not wanting to let up on gif to gif not giving you answers again to you unvoting gif for rb

[zMuffinMan]

though i'm not actually sure what your other reads are and/or how they've changed over the course of the game

[zMuffinMan]

I thought the vote was mainly because of saying hi, im two vote. Then disappear. I admit it may not have been the best way to introduce myself, but hey! I was busy

ok

what are your thoughts on the game outside the wagon on you?

the only reads you've really given so far are a scum read on notscience and a town read on gif when asked about it

[zMuffinMan]

Idk about gif

Town. Very open to discussion. Protecting Sakura.

also what changed between these two posts?

[zMuffinMan]

how did you find notscience's post about you if you didn't read the game?

[zMuffinMan]

(1) is what happened, though? since rb apparently iso'd the people voting him

[zMuffinMan]

now that I think about it, why would you tell me what you're looking for in scum-me before you ask this question? all it does if I really am scum is tell me what I'm doing wrong so I can fix it

if you're scum and you think you can consciously correct it, kudos to you?

by that logic, nobody should ever explain anything because it just helps scum adjust their play?

@muffin: At the point he made 339? I don't really think so.

uh, i asked about that post specifically and he said he found it from ISOing the people voting him, so yeah

[zMuffinMan]

if you're scumreading me, why aren't you voting me?!?!" is an easy angle for scum to push to discredit ppl voting them, so I wanna look into it

I agree with this part.

fyi, i'm pretty sure me doing this is (or rather, was, until i noticed it) an outright scum tell for me. i'm not sure i ever do it as town but i fucking love(d) doing it as scum. pretty sure i did it in gif's touhou game on at least 3 separate occasions

[zMuffinMan]

Alignment is random from flavor and role.

no, i'm pretty sure it's only flavour, not role - i remember having this exact discussion in the last game

He's not giving you the obvtown credit you deserve.

why do you think pieguy is obvtown?

[zMuffinMan]

that's fucking hilarious

[zMuffinMan]

@kagami

when did you start thinking pieguy was obvtown btw?

because you didn't mention him in the reads you gave in #274 so i'm guessing it's a recent thing?

[zMuffinMan]

Her reads feel very genuine to me, and somewhat high-energy

have you seen pieguy scum before?

The switch there seems very much against the path of least resistance, and represents a town mindset to me.

in what way was it against the path of least resistance? iirc a fair few people have called you town now and there hasn't really been anyone calling you scum since early on when a couple people (pieguy included) expressed light suspicion of the miller claim. if anything, that looks more like going with the flow than going against the path of least resistance

are there other read progressions you think come from a town mindset?

[zMuffinMan]

"high-energy" reads isn't an alignment indicative thing for pieguy. read the first touhou upick, for example. the main reason nati started suspecting him there was

because of

the "high-energy" nature of his play. i remember getting minor town vibes because of his approach to the game there but it faded eventually when i looked closer at the way his reads were progressing in that game and the reasoning for them

i'm not getting obvtown vibes from him in this game

[zMuffinMan]

Her read on you seems also like a very natural paranoia, which I'm feeling myself.

i would be more worried if pieguy wasn't expressing some sort of paranoia about me

if he ever forms a read on me early on, i'm going to treat it like a scum claim

as is, i'm taking it with a grain of salt. it doesn't tell me anything about his alignment

[zMuffinMan]

i believe so?

pie guy

[zMuffinMan]

maybe not? i dunno. i've always referring to him with male pronouns and he's never said anything about it

[zMuffinMan]

i dunno. i don't really have much experience with him but he's playing a far safer game here than he was in gif's game

[zMuffinMan]

ebwop: and by that i mean he hasn't really been creating any waves and he hasn't really expressed any controversial opinions on people, he's just kinda sitting back and observing and inserting questions here and there

[zMuffinMan]

Like... 2 people just claimed like that, no questions asked. And everybody suddenly claims. Like wtf...

i have a reason for claiming that aspect of my role. if it simplifies things, you can think of it as an ascetic claim, kinda, even though it's really not. the tl;dr of it is if you're town, you're better off not targeting me with anything at night (unless you realllllllly want to confirm that aspect of my role, but really, there are better uses)

How would you describe my play (separate from majiffy and mollie's play) in that game?

I'm surprised you even thought to compare the two considering
1) I was actually pretty absent D1 in that game
2) My other two heads are much more forceful personalities than I.

one of the perks of having to deny a guilty on me all game is i had to go over your ISO there several times and figure out who was saying what (particularly so that i could show that the read you and mollie had on me D1 was consistently a scum read so that would have explained why you guys thought i was scum D2)

i know you weren't as active as your other heads, but there were definitely things you did that stood out (for example, when the brief early morph wagon happened, you calling out 1 of 3 scum in in {pieguy, kagami, me} was memorable - and also you were pretty clearly town reading morph early on when he was under suspicion). those are things i think of when i think of creating waves, and you're not really doing anything similar in this game so i don't know what to make of it

[zMuffinMan]

Tone and connotation suggests that you're warming up to calling me scum for this.

not really, i don't have a read on you either way

[zMuffinMan]

(and if i were "warming up" to calling you scum, i'd just do it rather than dance around with it)

[zMuffinMan]

due to the preponderance of role speculation stuff, which is really easy to talk a lot about without really saying anything meaningful, I'm not getting a plethora of strong play based reads yet

I'm not gonna fake that when I don't have it yet

role speculation is always going to be a part of a role madness game, but i think most people have moved on and most people are engaging others on the basis of reads and play right now

i wasn't really asking you to fake it, but since kagami asked about my read on you, it's something i've noticed is lacking from your play so far

[zMuffinMan]

i mean, i know as i wrote #450 there were like 10 posts in a row before it talking about flavour and roles and whatnot, but *shrug*

_most_ people have moved on

[zMuffinMan]

(mostly so that muffin isn't too surprised)

heh

i don't understand the miller aspect of your role from a flavour perspective but whatever

[zMuffinMan]

I think RB's role is scum.

GIF, say scum manage to ML town until lylo/mylo

then bull's just like KINGMAKER

actually, depending on the numbers (assuming it's 12:3), RB won't even make it to lylo if he's scum and hammers every day

which may have been put in as a counter-balance if it is a scum role

[zMuffinMan]

i find it oddly fitting by why are we flavor fishing your character? doesn't that benefit scum more? Also...

@Muffin: why is RB scum?

i don't think anyone is flavour fishing here

and i'm not seeing town in RB's posts. for example, questioning why you didn't investigate a miller is odd, suggesting you're possibly buddies after calling them town is odder. i'm not really seeing a town mindset in any of his posts.

do you think he's town? and/or are you clearing him because of his role?

[zMuffinMan]

kat's role was slightly different due to the nature of the game (D3 with the numbers as they were it would have been an extremely powerful role). i also had the benefit of commenting on it knowing the full setup and the types of roles in it

raging bull's is slightly different given this is a role madness game, and the mechanics of his role wouldn't even allow him to get to lylo (assuming single faction). not to mention it would require us letting him hammer, so it's really in town's hands to decide how powerful it actually gets. plus it's a fakegod game

though, really, the fact that i'm paranoid about rb's role is actually a fairly good sign i'm town if you really think about it (i value consistency in thoughts as scum more than anything else and i'm fully aware of what i said about kat's role in nati's game)

[zMuffinMan]

i actually want to see more relevant content from him

and im nowhere near ready to end the day yet when there's a few people with virtually zero content (including someone who hasn't posted yet?)

[zMuffinMan]

didn't you call me a town read in that wall you wrote, tne?

what changed?

[zMuffinMan]

Muffin man always tricks me

where is this coming from?

because i think i've only played against you as scum twice (well, three times if you include 519 where we were both scum and killed each other N1) and in both the games you've been town against me you've been, at the very least, mildly suspicious of me. even in gif's touhou game, you claimed you knew i was manipulating you, so i dunno if that even counts as tricking you.

i could see other players who've actually been bitten by me before playing the paranoia card, but coming from you it's strange

[zMuffinMan]

Muffin, is there something i missed? You looked like you really want to be conf town.

what?

[zMuffinMan]

There are few posts i believe that seemed like you want to be conf town.

yes

there was hinting at a way to confirm someone through stuff with day cards / abilities

i wanted it on me because (a) my role is such that i'd basically be an untouchable IC if i was actually confirmed by a day cop, and (b) there's a fair few players in this game that are going to be playing the paranoia card with me (in case you've somehow missed them mentioning paranoia about me over, and over, and over, and over again) and i wanted to nip that shit in the bud from the get-go

it's almost getting to be a running joke that's making my town games less fun because i could show someone almost undeniable proof that i'm town because of my play and it will just get shrugged off because, "lol, you could do that as scum"

[zMuffinMan]

yeah exactly

[zMuffinMan]

I don't want to lynch vigbait

There's no information in that

[zMuffinMan]

ah fuck i'm getting my games mixed up. i sincerely apologise for the use of capital letters

[zMuffinMan]

i don't think anyone is writing it off as a town role? some people have mentioned it maybe, but i think their arguments are extremely flawed given it's a fakegod game and the claimed mechanics of the role aren't overly strong unless we let it be overly strong.

i'm _still_ waiting for him to give more developed thoughts on the game. i don't really know what he's hoping to gain from his question to me

[zMuffinMan]

i don't see how you think that makes the claim town

it could be a power limiter on a scum role

or... fakegod trolling a town role

it's not impacting my read, so

[zMuffinMan]

i mean, realistically it's never going to get to the point where he kills himself, unless for whatever reason we let it happen, so i think it's more fakegod having a little fun with a limiter than anything

[zMuffinMan]

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out it's not something scum would pull

uh, bullshit? it's something i would have considered doing if i was scum, purely because it makes you look good with no downside

that is the entire reason i asked sakura whether the mod had informed her of anything after you supposedly used the spellcard on her.

i didn't enquire about it any further because i thought it would resolve itself anyway, and it didn't seem important to resolve today, but you can't be serious in suggesting this isn't something scum would do

[zMuffinMan]

also yeah i was referring to bitmap (3 posts) and hanasawa (0 posts) when i said vigbait

[zMuffinMan]

Would you leave a claimed cop alive for two days to make sure she gets both of her results?

assuming you can actually retrieve the spell card (which i'm guessing you probably can since that's a dumb thing to lie about), if you're scum i don't think you had any intention to actually do it again on D2. either that or you were planning on doing it D2 then killing her, say, N2, and then going "dunno what happened" or "guess they figured it out" or something.

you're speaking of a hypothetical that i don't think you'd have ever let happen as scum, sooooooooooooooooo

People asked why Sakura's name was not bolded.
I said it was because of my phone and mod let it slip this time.
There was absolutely no reason for anyone to continue question them at that point

if i wasn't considering the very real possibility it was a scum gambit from you, i wouldn't have questioned sakura in the first place. i was fine with leaving it til at least D2 to discuss any further, but i don't really fault pieguy or anyone else for continuing to be suspicious of you today

[zMuffinMan]

because you were the one who just asked the question that made fakegod say what he just said

[zMuffinMan]

or... not, i was assuming it was a carry on from the question you asked earlier but it might have been in response to rb bringing it up again

either way, why do you think it's important that i mentioned your name?

[zMuffinMan]

skimming through shit on lunch break

unvote

til i get home and get a chance to properly read

[zMuffinMan]

mostly a tonal/gut thing but I'm not townreading him

Spoiler:

just to be clear, is not town reading me equivocal to scum reading me or are you calling me a null read here? you've been dancing around this for a while now without making it clear and it's starting to bother me

because i've played in three of your modded games start to finish, and you played in/followed gif's touhou game where you correctly identified me as scum, so i know you have at least a decent understanding of the differences between my scum and town games

if you're null on me, how? i mean, i haven't been walling my every thought but i think i've been pretty fucking transparent so far and there's a decent amount of content to judge me on, so i don't believe you still haven't formed a read on me, even if only a light one

if you're scum reading me, then elaborate on this, in as much detail as you possibly can. coz i don't really know how town-you could think that, and i can see scum-you trying to capitalise on certain players' paranoia about me here.

some friendly advice though; let sleeping beasts lay dormant, because if you are scum and you awaken the beast, i am going to make this game thoroughly unenjoyable for you

[zMuffinMan]

Little worried how everyone just went off my wagon. Soon as I got L-1'd everyone just slowly backed off

i was on a lunch break and skimming through the thread, saw a bunch of votes on you, and decided to unvote for caution's sake but i'm not town reading you if that makes you feel better.

why does people jumping off your wagon worry you?

[zMuffinMan]

also it should go without saying but i'm gonna say it anyway. nobody else should vote feirei unless they _really_ want a feirei lynch because any further votes on feirei is going to make it incredibly difficult to achieve a different lynch

[zMuffinMan]

oh right you can vote now

[zMuffinMan]

kagami,

why is your vote still on varsoon?

[zMuffinMan]

This reeks of posturing on a read on me before I actually answer you/bullying me out of pushing you rather than actually trying to figure out why I'm thinking what I think.

is this your reason for voting me?

What do you know about scum me, exactly? Because you haven't played with it, you've played with town me what, once?

it wasn't an inference i was making based on knowing how you play but an infererence based on what you know of how i play

you should, by now, have at least a vague understanding of the differences between my town and scum games, if not a pretty decent understanding. and i know you also know that there are certain players who are going to be extremely paranoid about me in every game we play (because even if they hadn't stated it publicly in this game, they have stated it in other games you've either modded or played in). what i don't really get is how you think my play so far is my scum game, and i would expect town-you to be using what you know of my scum and town games to be making a judgment here. on the other hand, i can easily see scum-you capitalising on the paranoia that is going to be surrounding me for as long as i'm alive to justify a shitty read on me.

but you're right, i don't know much about your town game or scum game. i have heard that you make it incredibly obvious when you're town, and nothing you've done thus far is giving me town feelings about you.

You know damn well that my scumread on you in that game was 1) pretty nebulous D1 and 2) reliant on the reads of two other people (something you also quoted here!)

what? because i don't remember you having anything but a scum read on me D1 in gif's game (even if you weren't

absolutely

sure about it).

I don't get your trajectory on RB.

elaborate

Your claim (don't target me with anything) isn't as specific as it should be

i don't care

[zMuffinMan]

also i use the games you've modded as examples specifically

because

you know my alignment in them from the beginning; even if you're not analysing them in depth, it's still far easier to notice habits, patterns, etc when you're watching a player play a game, knowing their alignment. and i refuse to believe you don't have a foundation for reading me from those games.

i fucking loled when you called me out for "posturing" and "bullying" because you should know, if anything, that's a town tell for me, and you should also know that i've been accused of that exact same bullshit in the bork games i've been town

[zMuffinMan]

Your hypothesis seriously is that I'm trying to work the room with paranoia about you because I know it will work ahead of time?

actually i'm trying to take a step back here and see this from the perspective you're town

because your read progression on me doesn't make a lot of sense and i know you know better than this. and yes, i'm using burden of proficiency because you really should know better and i don't see where this is coming from if you're town. like, "posturing" is such a shitty excuse for voting me that i really don't know how you can think it makes sense. it's such a bad reason to think i'm scum that i honestly don't know how you can really think that as town - especially since you know this is an attribute of my town game

what you're doing right now is looking exactly like what mollie did to me in xenosaga

it looks like you've been trying to sow seeds of doubt about me and it looks like you're using the fact that people seem to have difficulty reading me to hide a shitty read on me

And you're basically demanding I use meta to judge you which I also find pretty

you claimed a "gut/tonal" read on me, given you've said virtually nothing about my play except for the early gif read thing which i showed you was incorrect, i took that to mean you were making a meta judgment on me.

if it isn't based on meta, what is it based on, because you've yet to really elaborate on it (even though i asked you to)

[zMuffinMan]

i mean, i'm not getting lynched here, so if you really want to continue pushing me, go for your life. you're just going to come out of this looking really, really bad

[zMuffinMan]

is that referring to something i said? because i'm not using meta, really

i'm just using what bork knows of me

[zMuffinMan]

This reeks of posturing on a read on me before I actually answer you/bullying me out of pushing you rather than actually trying to figure out why I'm thinking what I think.

like this right here is not, and probably will never be, a good reason to think i'm scum

i could go through bork games i've been town and show where people have said similar things about me and accused me of being scum for similarly shoddy reasoning

so bork should know this is not a good reason for suspecting me

like

it's pretty much a variant of what mollie just did to me in xenosaga - so i just don't get how bork could think this makes any sense as a reason to vote me if he's town here

[zMuffinMan]

Yes you can totally compare this to what a cornered last scum that is a different person from me did in a position where she had about no chance of winning no matter what she did.

except mollie was pretty much a consensus town read when she started attacking me

she was not cornered (except in-so-far-as being the last scum left alive). i was, quite literally, the only player that suspected her for a very long time

i know you're different players but that's not the point. you're using an argument that is completely invalid, similar to one that you've seen scum use against me before (and i've also been accused of being scum for "posturing" by town in one of your games, like by cabd in xenogears, and it was just as invalid there) - and i don't see how you think that makes sense if you're actually town

You got all 'if you're scum and scumreading me imma kick your ass' and didn't even consider that I was town scumreading you even though I hadn't even said why yet

... right

because me trying to understand your read progression on me and how you came about the read isn't me considering the possibility that you're town and your read just really, really sucks balls?

i'm asking for elaboration (which you keep not doing) because i want to see where your read is coming from

[zMuffinMan]

I literally can't parse the point you're trying to make here.

you voted me for something that is an attribute of my town game, an attribute that you've seen me attacked for multiple times

as town

[zMuffinMan]

it is not my fault that people don't know how to properly differentiate between scum and town motivation

[zMuffinMan]

"posturing" is just an awful reason to think someone's scum in general. it's even more awful when applied to certain types of player (e.g me. or mastin)

[zMuffinMan]

I mean if apparently you're "posturing" and apparently you're town, you should be able to tell me what's the town motivation that drove you to do something like that dont you think?

you're thinking about it too narrowly

i don't particularly want to delve too deep into theory here, but defensiveness isn't, has never been, and will never be a scum tell. at *best* it's a neutral tell. what you should be looking for is deeper than that. i know i'm town, i know any reasons for thinking i'm scum are flawed, if not fake. especially when coming from someone that should know better, and especially in a game where i've been as transparent as i've been so far.

[zMuffinMan]

COME ON REALLY?

SHE WAS 1 SCUM IN 11 PEOPLE WITH A KNOWN JK ALIVE

she was also being strongly town read by literally everyone but me. that's hardly cornered.

i also don't really know why you're making a big deal out of this? it's a very minor point.

Except your tone was reaaaaaaaaaaaaaally hostile and you pretty much outright threatened me there, so if that's 'trying to understand' then I'd really hate to see what you'd do when you're actually trying to be threatening.

what is your point here? i quite literally said i don't see how town-you thinks what you think, i asked you why you think what you think, yes i'm being hostile because i don't believe you have a good reason to think i'm scum and you're still not expanding on the reasons you supposedly think i'm scum

This just objectively is not a good point.

yes, it is. you're accusing me of being scum for something i do as town. something you know i do as town because you've seen it in your own games and you've seen how people react to it. that makes it a bullshit point.

If the underlined were really true you wouldn't have to qualify it with all the other bullshit you put in that sentence.

i didn't need to qualify it. i did anyway.

[zMuffinMan]

it being what you actually did HERE

i don't really know what you're expecting here. you're asking me to explain the town motivation behind what i did here and i've already done that. any town player who

doesn't

try to destroy any suspicion on them is just plain doing it wrong. that's why it's really an alignment-neutral thing and you have to analyse the motivations of the player themselves to decide whether it's coming from a town mindset or a scum mindset. i could say it's coming from a town mindset because it should be rather fucking obvious given my play, but *shrug*

i don't know how to better answer this

[zMuffinMan]

I mean he expressed he didnt have any idea about your alignment

no he didn't

he has been saying he isn't town reading me but at no point has he made it clear what his actual read on me was

that's what sparked this whole thing

i was unsure how he couldn't have formed a read on me based on my posts, and i was even more unsure about how it wasn't a town read given everything he knows about me (even though he's claiming he doesn't read my posts in depth in the games he's modded - which seems rather fucking ridiculous to me, but whatever)

[zMuffinMan]

Considering you're just trying to use it to make a terrible association across games for a different person, you're right, it is a minor point.

no, i was pointing out you've seen the same argument used against me when i've been town, so you know it's a bad argument. i pointed out that the argument reminds me of the one mollie was trying to use against me in xenosaga. you're the one that made a big deal out of you being a different player and yada yada yada. my original point was simply that you're using a bad argument, one that's been used by scum against me in a game you modded where i was town.

That you earnestly think that a town me would NEVER not have a town read at this point in the game with no flips or really a whole hell of a lot to analyze (high page count is not synonymous with me going to have the game sorted) is a really hard pill to swallow for me.

there's plenty to analyse, though. the fact that you're not analysing it is what worried me in the first place

i don't understand how town-you could have a scum read on me at this point. or a null read, really. that's why i asked about it. and you keep not answering me.

[zMuffinMan]

Said posturing due to said lack of townread is what gave him the scumread, and considering by the point he had his lack of read you hadn't "postured" yet that completely obliterates your argument.

uh, the tipping point for him voting me was me "posturing" so i don't really get what you're saying here

[zMuffinMan]

unless you think i'm suggesting he should be town reading me for the posturing? in which case that's not what i'm saying

[zMuffinMan]

though he should, now that i think about it

[zMuffinMan]

Sometimes I do read. If the game is moving slowly.
If it's/i'm 1) moving quickly 2) is late/i'm tired 3) am busy 4) trying to coddle one of my two children, I am scanning the page for bolds and that is it.

ok

let's say you don't actually have an understanding of my games because you haven't read my posts in the games you modded

even if i'm wrong about that, i thought you did. that is a large part of why i started questioning your read on me.

i see you ignoring this now in favour of calling me scum for thinking you should know better

why aren't you factoring this into the equation?

[zMuffinMan]

how the fuck does that at all apply to me in this game? It doesn't.

i'm not saying you're scum because your read on me changed, so i don't see how that's relevant.

Let's say we're both town? Maybe my gut was wrong? Maybe I shouldn't have felt as bad about your early game 'I think x is likely a scum role' stuff as I did.
Maybe I am entirely misinterpreting your interaction with me since then?

so elaborate on your read in a way that can be assessed instead of side-stepping the issue here.

make it clear exactly why you think i'm scum

you mentioned "trajectory" on rb. i asked you to elaborate on that.

you have issues with me tone or something (issues prior to this "posturing" stuff). i thought this was based on meta, but you're claiming it wasn't. so what is it based on?

[zMuffinMan]

I mean, that's the part where you started attacking him for a lack of townread on you, so I don't get why you're talking about him voting being the tipping point considering it happened after you provoked him.

at the point i started questioning him, i had like 100 posts in my ISO. i've been pretty transparent in my pushes, i've been pretty transparent in my reads, i've been pretty transparent in my general approach to this game. i started questioning him because i did not believe he had any legitimate reasons to think i'm scum here.

he then said i was posturing and voted me. i pointed out that this was a dumb reason to vote me and he should know better and i explained why.

i don't really understand where your confusion is here

[zMuffinMan]

1) you don't really have a great idea about how well I know your play or you as a person at all.

ok. you were able to identify me as scum in gif's touhou game (i don't care if you weren't confident about this or whatever, you still had me as a scum read which is more than i can say for most people in that game especially D1). i made the assumption this was based on your knowledge of my town and scum games. if i'm wrong, so be it, but the fact that you're ignoring why i thought i was right here is odd.

2) it's plausible (and even likely) that, as a mod, I don't get heavily invested in the cases people make in my games. I think any time I've referenced meta from one of my own games it's because I've gone back and read it after the fact.

i made the assumption that you followed your games pretty closely, because any time i attacked a player personally or, i dunno, brought up a QT slip, you were quick on the case to warn me about it

3) asking me why I'm not overriding what I think about you this game with meta from other games supplied directly by you isn't terribly compelling.

actually, i was asking why you don't seem to understand where i was coming from here. because if you read my posts from the assumption that i thought you had a decent understand of the differences between my town and scum games, you'd know my thought process isn't coming from a scum mindset

but you're ignoring this in favour of tunneling me now. and your reasons for tunneling are shittastic

[zMuffinMan]

1) They're not (the point I am making here) and 2) this is kinda irrelevant.

(1) it is the same argument, you're arguing the context is different because mollie was scum backed into a corner (i disagree, but whatever, don't really care). the context is irrelevant, though. i brought up the example of cabd arguing the same thing in xenogears specifically because it's an argument that's been used against me multiple times when i've been town.

(2) it's only relevant because you know this isn't a scum tell but you're pretending it is

As for RB - I didn't really see an actual scum read other than 'he's not looking town' (#556) and that you're paranoid about the role, but the wagon kinda grew sizeably and then you jumped off it and I didn't really understand at all how you felt about him at that point

i've explained a fair few times why i was scum reading rb, but ok i'll go over it again. i feel he's been talking about things that don't really matter that much instead of talking about stuff relevant to the game (like his reads). i brought up the example of him questioning sakura on why she didn't investigate kagami because that was one particular point that stood out as odd. for a more recent example, the "oh it worries me that i'm not being wagoned right now" is another thing that i don't really understand the motivation for.

i literally only unvoted him because i was about 6 pages behind, saw a number of people voting him, and didn't want a lynch to happen before i could figure out what was going on

i mean, all of this should be apparent if you've been reading my posts but whatever.

his role has little to do with why i think he's scum. i think i've only mentioned his role in response to others talking about it

[zMuffinMan]

Reads? what reads? I don't know where you stand even now.

how much of my posts have you actually been reading?

muffin never bothered to ask what was the gut feeling bork had and decided to just get defensive anyway

actually i specifically asked where the read was coming from in the same post you're claiming i "got defensive"

[zMuffinMan]

if you're scum reading me, then elaborate on this, in as much detail as you possibly can. coz i don't really know how town-you could think that, and i can see scum-you trying to capitalise on certain players' paranoia about me here.

this is me directly asking him for elaboration on his read on me

[zMuffinMan]

And yeah i dont really get where you stand

actually i'm going back over my own posts now and realising i haven't actually given a reads list, i've just been commenting on people at different stages of the game. i thought i posted one earlier because i was keeping track of it in notepad but i didn't :/

you and notscience are my strongest town reads atm. i think hanasawa is town, too - i really liked her posting today. feirei and kagami* a weaker town reads. i'm coming around to pie-town atm but i don't have any strong feelings about this and i really wish he'd make himself obvtown if he's town. i started thinking GIF was town after reading his responses when he got upset about having the spell card stuff outed.

i still think raging bull is likely scum. i don't have a read one way or the other on bitmap, gaiden, TNE

i'm in the process of sorting bork

and i'm leaving varsoon aside for now because that will probably be sorted tomorrow, but there are some off notes in the way he's approaching this game - there's no emotion, no spark in his posts.

[zMuffinMan]

Also muffin how come you only become active when somebody suspect you

i have a somewhat hectic working schedule that basically means i have no time to post on thursday / friday / saturday until late night (or sometimes early night on saturday)

though, really, i think i had 100 posts prior to the posting spree tonight, and the game's been open for a bit over 2 days now, so yeah?

[zMuffinMan]

are you the new jaqen, vezok?

[zMuffinMan]

*shrug* there's a reason i asked for day cards to be used on me

it's very hard to convince people i'm town when i'm actually town, even when there's hard fucking evidence of stuff i wouldn't do as scum staring them in the face

[zMuffinMan]

nati's 1543

fuck that game

[zMuffinMan]

btw @Muffin, why is Kagami a 'weaker' townread?

it stems from the conversation he had with me about pieguy, which gave me mild town vibes. the way he's analysing things looks townish.

and ~reasons~ which may or may not resolve themselves in the near future

anyway, i'm going to step back here and look over this again with fresh eyes tomorrow.

1543 was realllllllly fucking shit, and two ironic things about it are: (a) even when i think i'm being really transparently fucking town, apparently i'm not, and (b) a large part of why i started scum reading nacho in that game is because he couldn't see how fucking transparently town i (thought i) was being and i thought he should have known better

*shrug*

[zMuffinMan]

because she's been more reserved than i'd like her to be (e.g. her vote was on varsoon until just recently). i said weaker, as in weaker than the reads i currently have on you and notscience.

[zMuffinMan]

you do realise that bork was the one who brought up the whole "cornered scum" thing, right?

i was the one pointing out that it was unimportant

[zMuffinMan]

"Other people have attacked me for <x> when I was town" => "You should know that I do <x> as town and since you don't, you're scum"

it is more that the reason you chose to vote me is something that you should know is a part of my town game, and you don't seem to care about this, so i'm trying to figure out why.

this is all while avoiding whether <x> is actually scummy or not

define scummy. because to me, "scummy" means something is more likely to come from scum than town. and if you know that it's something i get attacked for when i'm town, why do you think it's scummy?

first off, why do you think this after what happened in xenosaga and your read on me? given what happened in there, this seems like a really unnatural thought to have bc I was town and had a read on you out the gate (even if it was wrong)

xenosaga is actually a part of why i think it would be really unnatural for you to have a quick read on me here either way. because you were way off in your read in xenosaga.

second off, if you apparently think I'm scum why aren't you pushing me? last time you had a scumread on me you didn't hesitate to tell everyone

i'm waiting to see more from you to solidify the read one way or another. i don't trust myself to read you correctly off a small amount of posts, i intend to solidify the read this game from a body-of-work angle.

you pushed me really really hard for supposedly BS'ing a scumread on you in that game and I was town there

no, my reasons for thinking you were scum in xenosaga were entirely for tonal reasons. i felt you were over-the-top excited for the game in a way that felt unnatural and the questions you were asking all looked forced to me. on page two in that game, for example, you went out of your way to ask about someone's read on a player; it looked like fake scum hunting

the read you formed on me had very little to do with it - i literally did not care about that - but even if it did, i was deliberately trolling for reactions in that game. i'm not doing that here.

it feels weird you'd push an angle about him playing up paranoia about you after I pushed p much the exact same angle on you in that game and it was wrong

with you, the paranoia angle is somewhat understandable. because you've actually read me wrong, or at least wavered on me a lot when you've played against me-scum. with bork? i didn't expect it because he's seen the ins and outs of my scum and town games first-hand (at least, i was assuming this was the case, he is denying he knows it very well) and he read me correctly in the first game i was scum against him.

[zMuffinMan]

But he does it to prove he's town, not to prove his attacker is scum because as town he fucking knows people will just be wrong about him sometimes.

this is wrong, though. a large part of the reason i thought nacho was scum in that game (and i said this quite a few times over the course of all three mylo days) is that his stance on me wasn't making sense and he was ignoring things that he should really know makes me town. i was able to build a much stronger case (i thought) for town-me in that game, but the key point here is that nacho was ignoring it and i couldn't see any reason why he'd do that as town

He's also much more quick to resort to ad-hom when he's being pressured as town

it is specifically a violation of fakegod's rulset to attack another player - a capital offense, as it were. i tend not to tread the line in his games; read any other fakegod game i've been in.

he always at least considers the possibility that Nacho is just fucking wrong or being an idiot or whatever he wants to call him at the time, and this is after miles of arguing with nacho about shit.

so basically what i'm doing here. *gasp*

[zMuffinMan]

i'm waiting to see more from you to solidify the read one way or another. i don't trust myself to read you correctly off a small amount of posts, i intend to solidify the read this game from a body-of-work angle

oh, and further, i'm not _really_ sure how bitter you are about what happened in xenosaga (because you pretty much declared that you don't want to play with me again, and i probably wouldn't have signed up had i checked the player list in this game) so i'm giving you a little more room than i did there specifically because if you are town, i don't want to create another situation like the one in xenosaga.

[zMuffinMan]

iirc it was definitely a component in your read on me

tbh i don't even remember saying that about you (and i'm guessing it came after i'd already practically confbiased myself into thinking you're scum) but that's even more reason for me to step back and reassess things right now

why is Feirei town?

gut. feirei's posts come across as pretty relaxed and open, and while feirei isn't provided massive amounts of content, she's still giving her opinion on players and answering questions in a way that's giving me town vibes. i have like no experience with feirei, though

do you have a scum read on feirei?

zmuffin almost didn't sign up based on that I felt like shit for almost affecting his decision to play the game

i wasn't trying to make you feel bad about that or anything, just i didn't want to create any unnecessary conflict if there were residual feelings from that game

anyway, i've gotta go in <5 mins. reading when i get home from work

[zMuffinMan]

do you srsly have nothing to say about my townread on you?

i rarely, if ever, comment on town reads on me (i have two reasons i don't do this that i may or may not explain at some point in time)

i suppose could break down your reasons and explain which ones are or aren't correct but i don't see a reason to at this juncture since it's unnecessary and just creates noise

null-town:
borkjerfkin

do you think his attack on me is coming from a town mindset? or where is this read coming from?

[zMuffinMan]

i rarely, if ever, comment on town reads on me

actually, not entirely true. i do it as scum, mostly because asking about a town read on yourself is an easy way to make someone think you're town (surprisingly effective), but i rarely do it when i'm town

[zMuffinMan]

Vote: Raging Bull

[zMuffinMan]

@muffin why shouldnt i be concerned that the wagon on me died? I dont think i did much to warrant a L1 wagont to like 2 votes.

if it concerns you, why don't you have any opinions on the people who were unvoting you and their reasons for unvoting you?

it feels a lot like you're making an empty statement here that's designed to look like it means something when it really doesn't.

also, did you forget that your vote was going to be stuck to feirei for the rest of the day or you just don't care about it?

[zMuffinMan]

it's somewhat serendipitous that you're an IC this game because i'd probably be lynching the fuck out of you right now if you weren't

[zMuffinMan]

What do you think about feirei thing with votes stuck on her?

what do i think about that aspect of feirei's role? dunno. don't really care to speculate, either. i'd guess more likely town than scum, but too little info to go off

you're the one voting feirei, though. what do you think about it? or what was the point of this question?

[zMuffinMan]

Why more likely town than scum?

it inherently seems like an anti-scum role by itself

there are certain ways i could see it being a scum role but, like i said, i don't care to speculate at this point since i'm not currently reading feirei's play as scum

why are you discussing the role rather than feirei's play?

What made you unvote me then vote me again?

i've already explained why i unvoted you. and i revoted you because i still think you're scum (which i've also already explained)

[zMuffinMan]

i dunno. i remember someone mentioning they were neighbours and i'm assuming it has something to do with that

[zMuffinMan]

(either way, unless you want to lynch feirei today, i think this is a conversation that should wait until D2 for obvious reasons)

[zMuffinMan]

do you still want to lynch gif, ns?

[zMuffinMan]

I am seeing a decent amount of annoyance from RB's responses to others that my gut is telling me is more likely from town than scum (as if he feels he's being misunderstood a lot)

uh... er... um... wha?

i'm reading over RB's recent posts right now trying to figure out where you're coming from with this and i literally cannot see the "annoyance" you're referring to, let alone a feeling of being misunderstood. unless this is solely referring to the sakura thing? or something i'm completely missing? in the first place, what makes annoyance at being misunderstood a town trait? if scum is being scum read because they think they're being misunderstood, wouldn't they be equally annoyed?

also, where are you at with reads? do you still think i'm scum? if so, why? who else do you think is scum?

It's that for scum-bork to put together this "flavor tells me X is scum if in the game" thing, he would have to think someone would find that convincing, and that someone would lampshade it. Most players, for whatever reason, tend to ignore these setup-spec based town-tells, but you could be pretty certain that I, in particular, would care. Such a strategy seemed to me like something that would most likely occur with players who know me better, like muffin or GIF. GIF especially, who just came from a game where cabd similarly played his hydra in a specific way to get a town-read off me.

i don't think i should really qualify as someone who "knows you better" given i've played two games with you (and i know you no better than, say, pieguy, who also played in those two games). i also think that i'd be more likely to use a gambit like that myself rather than let someone else use it if i were to come up with it, so yeah.

though, on the subject of bork's semi-claim, i have two issues. the first is that i'm not actually sure fakegod would ever tell someone "X is scum in this game" if X isn't in the game*. that would be directly lying to a player (the very definition of bastard). but the second issue i have, and the one i'm trying to figure out at the moment, is whether bork sees whatever fakegod told him and thinks, "yes, this setup is very poorly designed and so easily broken that the mod has told someone everyone's flavour, thus giving me a free cop investigation."

* the only possibility i could think of here is if fakegod is being trolly and ambiguous with the wording in a way that isn't technically bastard. i know fakegod likes being a bit trolly (and my role this game, for example, could be called kinda trolly)

no I meant how you said you'd consider it a scumclaim if I ever had an early read on you. and then you didn't say anything when I announced my townread

honestly, pieguy, i don't ever consider you town reading me a serious thing (check the scum QT from gif's touhou game, for example, where i quite explicitly stated that there was a very good chance the town read you were giving on me in later days was nothing more than a gambit). this is more so the case when i explicitly state before-hand that i would consider it a scum claim if you seriously developed a read on me in the early stages of a game and you go ahead and state a read on me anyway. it was fairly obvious what you were going for, and since i know it's designed for reactions, there's no point in me giving a fake reaction to something i know is almost certainly a reaction test. if anything, the fact that i didn't react to it should tell you that i'm town, because i sure as fuck could have faked a reaction to it if i were scum

further, i have reasons why i didn't want to comment on the town read on me even if it was a serious one. one of those reasons should be fairly obvious if you followed Xenosaga; mollie got fairly upset with me bceause she called me town in the early stages of the game and i didn't react to it - i didn't react to it because, not only do i prefer seeing how people react to me not reacting to it, but i also want to see how people change or don't change their reads on me over time without my input. it worked to great effect in Xenosaga, since mollie had to blatantly lie several times to push her read on me and i was able to go back and analyse the way in which her read developed on me throughout the game to show this. this is one reason i tend not to comment on town reads on me when i'm town

I'm fairly certain scum would try to mostly avoid you this game for ~reasons~ I'd rather not explain although you prob know what I'm talking about

i have seen this sort of thing brought up several times, and it never makes sense to me (unless i'm completely missing your point here, in which case, no i don't know what you're talking about). at one point i considered it somewhat of a town tell to push me because, as town, one of my stronger traits is how incredibly hard it is to actually lynch me. but then i came across a string of games where scum didn't seem to give a shit about that and pushed me anyway (mollie in the xenosaga game is the most recent example of that, but it also happened a _lot_ in that hydra game you replaced out of). and i started thinking about why scum would do that and reached this conclusion: i am a very easy target

because

i'm incredibly hard to lynch. it gives scum ammo to keep poking at over multiple day phases, more so if they're also the type of player who isn't easy to lynch. i also know that scum hate having me as a consensus town read.

this is why i now take scum reads on me with a grain of salt. it could come from either alignment. i'm giving bork the benefit of the doubt here and not automatically assuming he is scum, but i'm not seeing a town mindset in his approach to me, especially when his reasoning (or the reasoning he's given) is so blatantly wrong.

what's your read on TNE?

i don't have a read on TNE. i thought it was odd that he stated a town read on me and then retracted it (claiming he'd forgotten he had a town read on me). the push on gif is potentially something i could see coming from him as either alignment. i'm waiting for him to post more content.

[zMuffinMan]

indeed

has bitmap been prodded? and/or is he being replaced?

[zMuffinMan]

Might scum also get frustrated and being scumread for the wrong reasons? Sure. Depends on the player, but I find that emotion bubbles to the surface more easily (for me) as town than scum. I said as much that it's a weak read and remains such. If you're actually interested in working that out (your tone suggests you're not, but if you are) I am listening.

i'm reading raging bull's #839 and i don't really see where you're coming from. it's very easy to get frustrated with someone when they are legitimately wrong about something. it surfaces in my scum games all the time and i know it surfaces in others, too. i generally treat reactions to things that are blatantly incorrect (#839 is an example of this) as fairly alignment null (depends on the scale of the reaction, i guess, but i don't think #839 was telling either way). i can't really parse what in that post you think is more likely to come from town-frustrated-that-they're-being-accused-of-something-falsely than scum-frustrated-that-they're-being-accused-of-something-falsely

If you even had any pretense of trying to sort me you wouldn't have alienated me as quickly as you did in #938.

how was i alienating you? and in what way was i not trying to sort you in #938? i mean, i was fairly blatantly asking you to talk about your read on me in as much detail as you possibly could (yes, i added that i didn't see how a town-you could come to the conclusion i'm scum, but regardless of whether i'm right or wrong about how intimate you are with my town and scum games, i had legitimate reasons to think you were and that was fairly obviously where i was coming from with that).

saying i was alienating you is a load of shit. saying that i wasn't trying to sort you is a load of shit. i've done

nothing but

try to sort you, try to get you to answer questions so i can understand where you're coming from with the read on me.

the one time you even offer the burden of proficency case is way way into the game [#3748, just to prove that yes I did devote a significant portion of my afternoon to reading this] wrt events IN THAT GAME and not through this magical window into your playstyle that causes me to read you as town incredibly quickly that I should've had coming into the game because you say so

mm, that's not actually true, the bulk of my reasoning behind thinking nacho was scum there (apart from what happened on N2 that game) was his read progressions - particularly his read progression on me in that game (and i think i went over this a fair few times over the course of the game - jokingly at first, but i became increasingly serious about this as the game went on). i mean, i'm pretty sure the very first thing i said to nacho in that game was asking him about his read on me? so yeah.

And even after all that he was also town, a demonstrable example of someone misreading you that has played with you before (as if you really thought that doesn't happen all the time) with someone who was a player in every single game that I modded that you were also in, which it doesn't look like you're taking into account.

yeah, he was town, but up until the game ended, i (thought i) had very good reason to think he was scum, because i thought my play was pretty obviously not the same as my scum game and i thought he should have been able to tell this was the case.

but that game ended after i saw the same pattern i saw here from you, so unless you're suggesting i somehow knew nacho's alignment was actually town there, what point are you trying to make here? i saw a pattern i knew came from scum in xenosaga, i saw the same pattern in 1543 coming from someone i thought was scum in that game, and then i saw you trying to do the same thing here. i know it's not iron-clad definitely-scum-cannot-be-anything-else, which is why i questioned you about it (and why i questioned nacho about it and why i also questioned mollie about it in xenosaga) but nacho wasn't helping me understand where the town mindset in ignoring all the blatantly obvious cues i'm town was, and you're not helping me here by simply repeating the same shit over and over when it's so blatantly wrong that you really should know better.

You can say I'm 'tunneling' if you want, but if things happen that make me think I'm wrong on you, lo and behold my read will change.

i don't particularly care whether or not you choose to tunnel me

what i want to see is the reasoning for it <- because what you've given so far is you don't like my early interactions with you (presumably referring to the point i asked about your read on me - which really wasn't that early, but sure, whatever) and gut. k. great.

i asked you about your other reads because you're not really doing anything at the moment with the vote on me, and it's fairly obvious that even if i were scum here, you're not going to get me lynched doing what you're doing

I feel like you're trying your damndest to be obtuse about the whole thing.

carefactor: 0 - (also ironic that you talk about how obtuse i'm supposedly being given your reasoning for scum reading me)

answer this question: did you believe the mod had made an error or something? because your responses to gif suggest you were surprised

[zMuffinMan]

What's your current reasoning for scumreading RB as of #1135?

?

the same as it was prior to #1135. i even went over it with you when you asked about it during our back-and-forth (1018). the recent thing i brought up with raging bull being "worried" about people unvoting him but doing nothing about it is only another example of what i described in the first paragraph of my response to you re:him in 1018 - i'm not seeing a town train of thought in just bringing that up but not doing anything about the meat of the issue - what he specifically thinks is wrong with it and how that relates to people's alignments. he's not questioning people about it (he only briefly questioned me about it after i mentioned he wasn't questioning anyone about it) and the way he's come across the entire game feels like he's just floating through it and not really creating any waves rather than trying to figure things out.

I refuse to engage you any longer re: my read on you; I've talked it to death and am done rehashing it with you.

if you've talked it to death, it shouldn't be that hard to give a brief summary

i want to know which points you still think are valid (or do you think all of the reasons you've given are still valid?)

[zMuffinMan]

fyi that was a serious read. sry for any confusion

if you were serious, then meh. i'm not really reading you as scum at the moment, and if you are actually confident in your read on me, then kudos to you, i guess?

i think the crux of the reason you're town reading me is more or less correct (i do tend to avoid risky plays as scum, but since you've told me that you know this about me, at some point i'm going to have to change this for shits and giggles, even if it backfires). though i'm not used to seeing you approach your read on me in this way, because you're usually pretty big on analysing my tone and approach to the game in terms of reads. and, outside of mentioning my "1v1" with bork, that doesn't seem to be playing a factor in your read on me

[zMuffinMan]

@muffin: What happens exactly if I target you at night?

it won't do whatever you want it to do (so unless your sole aim is to test that it won't do whatever you want it to do, i'd suggest not doing it)

[zMuffinMan]

(i know i'm being vague here, but it's really not important to expand on it any further at this point and that's as much information as i think is necessary at this point)

[zMuffinMan]

then nothing? if your aim is to roleblock me, you won't roleblock me

[zMuffinMan]

i mean, if you have a roleblock, you're more than welcome to use it on me. if you have an investigation, you're more than welcome to use it on me. if you have a vig shot, you're more than welcome to use it on me. if you have all of the above, you're more than welcome to use all of them on me.

but there are better targets than me because you're not going to get the results you want to get from targeting me.

[zMuffinMan]

ok. good luck with that. i'm like 100% sure you'll be around to do it tomorrow, and if not tomorrow, the day after, or possibly the day after. i suppose there's a remote possibility of scum killing you somewhere down the line, but that would be actively playing against their win con so i doubt it!

[zMuffinMan]

i don't really understand what you're asking. i never asked you about feirei's role, i asked whether you were aware of the vote-sticking thing before you voted. you asked me about the role and i responded.

[zMuffinMan]

oh, right. i asked you about feirei's role in response to your question to me because i was assuming you had a reason for questioning me about it.

i personally don't give two shits about it, which is why i'm not actively trying to discuss it.

also don't really remember you talking about feirei's play, outside of the one line before you voted her (where you talked about the fact she went from voting you to voting bitmap). is that still why you think feirei is scum?

[zMuffinMan]

who exactly do you think is talking about your role rather than your play? i see some people talking about both, but that's about it. it matters very little to me whether people want to talk about roles as long as they're also focusing on actually scum hunting.

also not really sure what feirei could hide by not linking games that are publicly visible to anyone who can be bothered looking for them. i've seen similar attitudes towards linking past games coming from other players that think they can't be "metad" - it's an alignment-neutral reaction

ps: i'm actually not that much of a meta player (i use it as a reference for players i have past experience with, but most of my scum hunting is not meta-based)

[zMuffinMan]

@muffin, gaiden is wary about my role. Gif thinks im town because of my suicide.

but neither of those two have posted anything content-wise in the last week or so (well, gaiden hasn't posted any real content all game, but that's another matter altogether) so *shrug*. i'm not going to force myself to interact with people who aren't around to be interacted with

How about feirei saying she lurks though? Do you still think she is slightly town? How about her participation of discussions? Only answer questions when directed to her.

she *does* lurk, though, so i don't really see the issue here. it's no different to, say, mafiassk declaring he lurks every game (he does - it's not indicative of alignment, just fucking annoying)

i do still think she is slightly town; at the very least she hasn't done anything that's changed my read here

what about her participation in discussions. i see her giving reads, giving thoughts on different things here and there. and yes, she answers questions directed at herself, but not ones directed at other people. that's kind of a given? do you answer questions meant for other people?

[zMuffinMan]

i don't ask questions of people when they aren't around (specifically because i want to see what they write unprompted rather than give them an easy topic to talk about), but even if i did, there is no point. they'll either give their opinion on you when they come back, or they won't, and if they don't, then maybe i'll ask about it

lurking isn't objectively alignment-indicative - it depends on the player

And seriously? What reply is about her responding to questions directed at her only?

i don't understand what you're asking here or what you're getting at

She rarely gives her thoughts here and there

no? feirei has been (fairly consistently) posting her reads/thoughts on different things (at least from what i've seen). granted, not recently. and granted, brevity seems to be a thing with her. but at various points in this game day she's interjected with her reads / thoughts and the timing of it especially is why i remember thinking town

What do you think about her not questioning her scum reads? Or anyone for that matter.

*shrug* seems more a playstyle thing than anything. some people are more inquisitive, others tend to be more about giving their own thoughts on things. i think feirei is the latter

[zMuffinMan]

And seriously? What reply is about her responding to questions directed at her only?

oh, wait, i think i get what you're asking here

you said:

Only answer questions when directed to her

i was commenting on how ridiculous a statement this is.

[zMuffinMan]

Explain how did the timing of her reads were good.

OK. i'll give the example that most sticks out to me because it was the first post that really stood out as a town post from Feirei. 596 felt about as natural a post as I've ever seen from a player. the content isn't _reallY_ all that town (though this is a good example of Feirei interjecting her opinions on the game unprompted) but the timing of it especially is what made me think town here. it was at a point where the game was slowing down a bit (Hanasawa still hadn't posted, there were still a lot of people with no content, and conversations weren't really getting anywhere) and i dunno, i guess that post felt like it was injecting a bit of life into the thread. i suppose it's technically possible it comes from scum, but it just looked natural to me

@sakura, id like a feirei scan also if you will. Still like muffin scan too though.

do you think i'm scum now?

and i realise this post came before the replace out, but do you still think feirei('s slot) is scum? 'coz 1220 and the replace-out looked really town

Not to mention that i no longer can hammer when scum probably wants me to hammerto get 3 votes

explain this

[zMuffinMan]

this level of indignation is RB town

elaborate

because i see frustration at the vote on him by feirei, but i don't see town in his reaction

Muffin, have you still only received one PM?

i have my own conversation going on with fakegod unrelated to anything you've done but in relation to your role? yes (except for something i PMed him about that he said he wouldn't comment on).

[zMuffinMan]

The game went for 3 days and posting time was consistent throughout the day. Feirei did not mention hanazawa, why was the name mentioned by you? You said few people had no content, why did you change and say a lot now?

*shrug* If you aren't good at reading game flow, then you shouldn't be commenting on whether or not the game slowed down. It did. The honeymoon period of the game was over, unlike the first 24 hours the posts weren't anywhere near as frequent, and there were people with none-barely any content. Hanasawa hadn't even posted at that point (the only one who hadn't, which is why I specifically mentioned her) and others had only a few posts to their name and barely any content. I don't really know why you're getting held up on my wording here. Do you think it's important?

And i thought you dont care about role speculation so why talk about my role? Not only that, if you really thought feirei was town and that post was to inject conversation, why did you do nothing but still talk about me?

at no point did i say i don't care about role speculation. what i didn't like about you were asking me questions only about feirei's role and not about feirei's play. i even specifically mentioned i'm fine with role speculation as long as it doesn't distract from playing the actual game.

also, have no fucking clue what you're on about with that last question. if i talked about you, it would have been because i was scum reading you

Explain how that was town

i think it was a genuine rage quit, the emotion leading up to it (1120) followed by the replace out looked like town who was fed up with dealing with someone who wasn't being rational. i can relate

i'm more interested in why you think feirei was scum replacing out there

What makes you think that someone cant disappear once you ask them questions? I want to see your logic of it for not questioning them until they are on.

i don't even understand what you're asking me here

are you asking me why i don't question people who aren't around? coz if you are, you're arguing about a theory point here and i've already explained why i don't do it

[zMuffinMan]

If i were to guess for now, i say feirei slot and you are scum

excuse me for a moment while i attempt to stifle laughter

...
...

nope, not working. lemme guess, you think i'm defending a buddy or something now?

which post made you read hanazawa as town?

it wasn't a single post, it was how she entered the game in a way that felt relaxed and natural - the interactions with people were very casual in a nothing-to-hide sort of way and the way in which she was talking about different things happening felt really town

[zMuffinMan]

I would say its not alignment indicative because personal reasons come up, but tossing that aside, i would read it as scum not answering my question

btw, is the last part of this serious?

[zMuffinMan]

the level of indignation he showed re: feirei is way over the top and is way stronger than anything I've seen from him before and so it v strongly points to town RB

two questions (or more like one question and one comment)

where did the initial scum read on him come from? (i.e. was it also meta-based or based on his play?)

and how much of 169 do you remember? because like i said, i see the frustration in being voted by feirei but i don't see the town in his reaction, and what you just said here is giving me flashbacks to the stuff generic tried to pull in 169. i dunno if you remember exactly why he was being town read by the vast majority of the player list, but faking something very simple like that is _really_ fucking easy, especially if people are expecting it of you

[zMuffinMan]

:/ don't think i got mentioned once in either of those catchups

[zMuffinMan]

My PM specifies that I'm a Tracker/Detective though

is this your actual role name? and/or how the fuck does what you described make you a tracker?

[zMuffinMan]

victor, what are your actual reads? there's so much waffle in 1323 that i can't actually tell where you stand on certain people (e.g. i'm unsure what your actual read on RB is, and it looks like you have hanasawa as a scum read but she isn't in the three people you want to lynch today)

[zMuffinMan]

why don't you think there was any town in his reaction? do you have any specific idea what you'd be looking for in a town reaction?

i don't have a specific set of criteria, no. but i was just looking for a reaction that makes sense, i guess. i mean, i've been attacking raging bull for a while now but there didn't seem to be "indignation" or frustration or anger or anything of the like in his responses to me, but when feirei put a vote down on him, the attitude completely changed. he was acting frustrated, but i didn't really understand where the frustration was coming from. if it's because he's town and being voted, where is the indignation in his responses to me? or to you, when you were voting him? it just felt like lashing out at an easy target

also when i talk about making sense, i'm talking about the way in which he's questioning people and the statements he's making. in the back-and-forths he's been having with me, there's been a lot of questions he's asked where i look at them and go, "what is the point of this question?" most of the questions he's been asking me are either (a) asking me about stuff that doesn't seem relevant to figuring out my alignment, (b) asking me about stuff that doesn't advance the game in any way, or (c) asking me about stuff that should be rather obvious if he was reading the thread. the only really game-relevant questions i remember him asking me were about my reads (and even then, he's only really asked me about feirei and hanasawa so far). there may have been a couple other relevant questions in the mix somewhere but most of the time i'm just left scratching my head trying to figure out why he's asking me the questions he's asking me

i see the same sort of weird questions in his responses to feirei (e.g. 1221). there's no focus, it's just a bunch of questions where the answers don't really seem to matter. i mean, i suppose if you squint really, really hard you can see some merit in asking feirei why she unvoted, but even that should have happened a long time ago and the way the question is phrased is completely misinterpreting what feirei was actually saying.

[zMuffinMan]

Oh my vote is locked apparently...

kinda wondering how the you missed all the discussion about votes being locked on feirei if you read the game

I've given my input

i actually don't even know what your reads are at the moment

and i don't remember any input you've actually given apart from calling feirei-slot town

[zMuffinMan]

Then pay attention or open my ISO

i am aware you gave reads like 30 pages ago, if that's what you mean?

i don't remember you really talking about how those reads have or haven't changed over the course of the game and/or where you're at now

[zMuffinMan]

I figured that my responses and votes would speak for themselves.

no? i'm going over your ISO now and i don't really know where you stand on people

as far as i can tell you think one of the investigative claims contains scum (but you didn't specify which one you thought was scum), you think notscience and gaiden are scum? maybe? it's unclear since you haven't really talked about them recently and the last thing you said about them was ages ago. a lot of your responses come when people mention suspicion of you (e.g. you haven't really talked to me at all except when i mentioned i don't like the way you're approaching this game). when the RB wagon looked like this:

Raging Bull [6] - GuyInFreezer, Feirei, zMuffinMan, notscience, pieguyn, SXTLHGaiden

you said all your town reads were on it but i don't really know who you were referring to here

so yeah. i dunno who you actually think is scum

[zMuffinMan]

i get the feeling that you're scum and trying to create as few interactions as possible because sakura's investigation means you're fucked now

[zMuffinMan]

So flinging suspicion on me just feels like you're trying to draw a mislynch on soon-to-be-conf-town

i think i just did the biggest eye roll i've ever done

i'm not pushing a lynch on you. theory dictates you shouldn't be lynched today.

but i still think what you're doing looks like scum who knows he's fucked and i still don't like the fact that it looks like you've basically shut down and stopped interacting with the game in any meaningful way.

My suspicions stand

WHAT suspicions? i dunno who you're actually suspicious of. notscience? gaiden? bitmap? TNE? me?

also, going back over your ISO i found

thenewearth - Town a hundred times town town forever the new earth town earth town w w w dot thenewearth is town dot com

what changed?

[zMuffinMan]

also why are you reading RB as town?

[zMuffinMan]

Is it bad to sheep your town-reads?

uh, yeah? i tend not to sheep ever (excluding nacho bets), but if i did i wouldn't be sheeping someone onto someone i thought was towntowntowntown100%town.com

They're not just townreading me because I gave them a handy

*ahem* yes, yes... er... that is 100% not why i am town reading notscience

I don't see you doing the same thing to muffin
Do you think I'm a better scum player than muffin or something?

to be fair, i don't think ns has ever seen me play scum against him (outside of your game which he wasn't reading?)

so i can see ns being more paranoid about other players than me making sense

What happened to the RB wagon

after p49 people unvoted him *shrug*

any chance i can get you to move your votes to TNE? we're running out of time

chillax. i'm aware of the deadline. just woke up and will be around til close to the deadline

[zMuffinMan]

i dunno why venmar's name showed up in those first two quotes. ignore that. it's varsoon then notscience

my brain not working yet. need breakfast and coffee

[zMuffinMan]

he was trying to make a joke about confirming he knows TNE's flavour

anyway, wait like 5 hours for hammer plx. RB has been prod dodging for a few days now and promised content

(inb4 TNE comes in and selfhammers in 3... 2... 1...)

[zMuffinMan]

because of how useful he's being, duh

[zMuffinMan]

haha holy fuck. i just realised hanasawa hasn't posted in 11 days. how has she not been replaced yet?

[zMuffinMan]

reminds me of mnemonic in the first game who made it through three day phases before finally being replaced

[zMuffinMan]

As for hanazawa town read, im surprised you town read her considering she was basically trying to get rid of my wagon

whether or not someone's reads agree with mine means almost nothing to me. it's pretty rare for my reads to synch with someone else's

Fwiw, i dont scum read you as big as D1 for now

that's the nicest thing anyone has ever said to me. thanks

[zMuffinMan]

Ok why the hammer gaiden?

vote gaiden

is your vote on gaiden because he hammered? or...?

what happened to your suspicion that feirei-slot and me are scum?

[zMuffinMan]

at the very least i would like to know if it's possible bitmap died because of that

no, i'm not a PGO or anything like that or i would have explicitly claimed that

@Everyone: how certain are we that there aren't multi factions in this game?

if kagami is town, it's unlikely. SK would still be possible but i don't think i've ever seen fakegod run a SK before

[zMuffinMan]

I don't know what to think about the fact that I included muffin in my list of investigation targets and he didn't react to it at all

i made it clear multiple times over the course of D1 that i would prefer people didn't target me (and i intended to make it clear once again before N1 started but i didn't expect gaiden to hammer when he did especially given i requested a hammer not occur and made it clear i'd be around til near the deadline). i assumed you were derping and ignored it. *shrug*

[zMuffinMan]

in his giant reads list, pieguy made it pretty clear he only suspected gif on the basis of tne-scum

even if he were a hider, i doubt he'd have targeted gif after that flip (or he woulda made it more clear than he did that he was a hider in a game with no flips)

[zMuffinMan]

in case FG didn't tell you, that special something we had is gone forever

i am not surprised. i don't think we had much chemistry together

[zMuffinMan]

The lack of chemistry was of such great extent, in fact, that absolutely nothing came of it

at some point in this game you'll have to explain what the "protown utility" of it was (meant to be?) and/or why you used it on me

[zMuffinMan]

My role name is "Specific Jack of All Trades," and is completely misleading as to what I do.

heh, i was going to ask why your role name doesn't include "miller" but then i realised my own role name doesn't include the most important part of my role (and is rather trolly anyway)

[zMuffinMan]

i don't see this line of questioning going anywhere. if it targeted sakura, it was incorrectly formatted. if it was untargeted, it was incorrectly formatted. either way, fakegod didn't do anything about it publicly

[zMuffinMan]

FG told me the format was fine if it were targeted

o. then carry on

[zMuffinMan]

Eh, we'll see how FG replies. From what I was told, that spellcard must have been a targeted spellcard.

i'm clarifying something with fakegod now but i can think of a couple other possibilities here that i may explain after i get a response

[zMuffinMan]

i saw pieguy give his reads and all his scum read flipped town

why did you assume this prior to sakura posting today? one of the two scum reads pieguy gave yesterday was varsoon and sakura gave an inno report AFTER you said that about pieguy's reads

That being said, I was tasked to not let GIF get by today if pie died.

I'll be paraphrasing the case on GIF in a few, however here's some food for thought. Gaiden's quickhammer yesterday served to save GIF from pie's hardpushing

unless pieguy made the strongest case that was ever cased, i don't really get why this would make you want to 1v1 GIF today (or make you think it's a good idea)

though speaking of why gaiden hammered, i had my own theory about it that was nothing to do with GIF. i started thinking about the timing of it being really weird given it was around the time raging bull had promised to catch up after days of prod dodging and gaiden hammering was a convenient excuse to give raging bull extra time to think about how he wanted to approach the game. only thing is raging bull's push on gaiden at the start of D2 makes me think i could be all wrong about this so now i'm like

I mean, if ppl suspects my validity as a rolecop, all I need to do is scan someone tonight

i'm more interested in why you'd choose to rolecop pieguy