Event Card Mafia (Game Over)

[talah]

VOTE: Aronis

Usual shtick, back after work.

[talah]

VOTE: VOTE: KingdomAces

because I hate post #24

also hello everyone

What did you hate about it?
And hi.

---

Hey kids.

VOTE: Prof Friday
First gut twitch.

Can you try to explain the twitch?

---

VOTE: xRECKONERx

Also first gut twitch.

I got this too, although it was for the vote on Prof rather than the pre-lurk jitters.

..although I

mayyy

be reading into it too much:

VOTE: Prof Fridays

Why did you make this vote? Because you realise OMGUS is a terrible scumtell usually asserted by scum, right?

---

[...Prof post...]
[...beetlejuice image...]
My vote isn't RVS anymore.

This is a really weird reason to say your vote is serious - did you expect that Prof would lurk most of the day, or... what was it that makes this a beetlejuice tell?

---

Oooooh

Thinking of voting anyone yet?

---

The dice chose, not me.
OMGUS
VOTE: ARONIS

Really? I would've chosen something beneficial to the town, IF I had been given the opportunity. And OMGUSmvoting is scummy.

Die, scum, die.

Eh... as has been mentioned, there was no choice involved. Dice tags are dice tags. And I've just said where I stand on OMGUS (as in, I think it's a pretty useless scumtell).

Actually I was wondering if you were doing the whole

"I'm thinking from a town mindset guys, because I'm referring to scum as scum, and not as 'us'"

, with this:

VOTE: mnemonicdevice

For giving scum an extra night kill.

..and:

Purple = Confirmed Town
Blue = Confirmed Scum
Green = Unknown alignment.

Regardless of sanity. Lynching a purple name is a bad idea. So change to scum or die, your call.

So.. Venmar is town because he's purple in the VC as well? Or for other reasons?
And how do you presume to threaten to kill unless you're mafia?

:roll:

VOTE: Aronis

Let's see if we can get me lynched before page 4.

If you're town: Stahp.

---

I like the double thing this early in the game, most bang for our buck.

PEdit: AGar's town yay. Oh shit wait.

UNVOTE: AGar
VOTE: Aronis

This is probably the best time in the game that the double thing could happen given that scum still get the double kill regardless of how many of them are left unlynched.

Can you explain the Agar townread please? Because he's terrifyingly good as scum.

[talah]

Well, I loled :)

[talah]

Spoiler:

[quote=Belisarius in Post 390 of Mobile Suit Gundam SEED]Your reaction reminds me of me in Open 480.[/quote]

[quote=Belisarius in Post 393 of Mobile Suit Gundam SEED]You weren't in that game. But you're behaving in a manner consistent with the scum thought process I had during Open 480. When I see somebody thinking like scum-me, my first thought sure as hell isn't "Well, there's obvtown."[/quote]

"What I would do as scum" is sometimes a good, and sometimes a crummy, scumtell. I'm hoping you can divine which it is in this game, if you're town.

Also I have no idea why my spoilered quotes aren't working but the links to the posts work just fine. Had to fudge them because the thread's locked.

[talah]

Well^ TiP is voting me unless he's a compulsive self-voter. fixed

BE YOUR BEST ZORASTER

[talah]

Thenks x2

[talah]

No solid reads yet but a few tends.

You avoided answering what made you twitch about Prof. I'd like to know. Because you responded to me bit completely ignored that.

Regarding AGar, no I've never seen him as town, only as scum, which is why I'm cautious about a quick town read from Zito.

I'm quite surprised you assert I only have questions, when I clearly have opinions as well.

[talah]

Anyways back tomorrow eve - enjoying!

(Peeved GiF hasn't posted yet)

[talah]

What part of post 96 did you not get or how did it not answer your question?
I think I saw one oppinion in your first post with the rest as just general comments.

The borked quote tags. Which incidentally were more borked before the mod "fixed" them, but it still has your question inside the quote. So I missed your response. Which I quite like as I was mainly after a pingback to see if you'd back your gut.

Regarding opinions and myself - I'm painfully transparent as town so if you ever want to know where I'm at about anything, all you need to do is ask.

Regarding questions, I felt the thread could use some serious to get scumhunting rolling so I laid down a few things which had jumped out while I'd been reading along (it's 7am here so unfortunately a lot of the activity is happening either while I'm at work or while I'm asleep). Didn't mean to be a buzzkill but there's only so much of ActionDan's rapping that I can take.

[talah]

No. I voted him because I thought his "in-character" posting was obnoxious.

Okay great. So you're not using a useless scumtell to try to find scum.
THAT'S ALL I WANTED TO KNOW RECK
THANK YOU SO MUCH

If you meant, "Why did you OMGUS Professor Fridays", turn to option (1)! If you meant, "OMGUS is usually performed by scum", go to option (2)! If you meant, "OMGUS is stupid and scum try to push people for it", go to option (3)!

Spoiler: Option 1

are you literally fucking high he was not voting me

Spoiler: Option 2

No. No it's not. Holy fuck no it's not don't ever fucking say that OMGUS is a stupid fucking scumtell please never say that again you are fucking retarded

Spoiler: Option 3

Yes, thank you captain obvious.

I don't really know how you think it's open to interpretation, but for the sake of clarity:

• Tony PF votes Prof Fridays
  
• Prof Fridays votes Tony PF
  
• You vote Prof Fridays

Do you see the OMGUS there? Was it you that did the OMGUSing?

Incidentally, I picked 3.
Although your 2 is what I disagree with.

[talah]

So kind of waiting on Tony PF's response but thinking at this stage he's a pretty good vote as well. I just don't see a reason why Aronis is town yet.

@Tony

can you answer this when you next post:

[...Prof post...]
[...beetlejuice image...]
My vote isn't RVS anymore.

This is a really weird reason to say your vote is serious - did you expect that Prof would lurk most of the day, or... what was it that makes this a beetlejuice tell?

@Aronis

for the sake of simplicity and 'cause you seem to be dodging questions - what's your read on Venmar?


Back later.

[talah]

oh god, i finally read that talah wall and my eyes are bleeding

I'm just going to assume you mean in the good way.

[talah]

BRO, I still don't understand why scum would be more likely to be confused about anything than town would. I really can't say anything else there.

You immediately commented on my quote tags in response to TiP though, so obviously you read my response.

The only mitigating factor I can think of is that you thought he was being jokey with his vote (like I did at the time), but that's a bit of a clanger when I immediately recognised he was backing his vote, responded to it, and then you responded to me.

So.. what happened there?

[talah]

UNVOTE: Aronis
VOTE: Tony PF

Answer this please.

[talah]

Aronis: it'll take you 30 seconds. Read on Venmar please. I want to know why you grouped yourself and him as "purple-town" earlier.

[talah]

So at this stage I could be tempted to lynch Oversoul as well - I think that was a decent pickup on farside's part - although I was going to let Oversoul do his thing to get a read. I've played one game with him before where he was town and I was scum. If he's town he's a pretty decent asset though. Thus tempted, but not convinced yet.

Right now though both Aronis and Tony are looking like ballast or scum. If I get initial scum-pings and then can't even get answers to straightforward questions and they're just going to troll I'm just going to mark them off as excellent lynches for today and look elsewhere until deadline's closer.

Other inactives need to post as well, by the by. Brian and GiF are both capable of excreting golden obv-town-eggs as town, so... Hurry up boys.

For now my vote stays but I'll have a think about this today.

[talah]

@Oversoul - if I was confused in the slightest about the vote colours, why would I be mentioning Venmar in the first place?

@Tony - if it wasn't because beetlejuice, then why the beetlejuice image?

[talah]

I need to marinate on the last few pages and cross reference them against my other notes (on my PC---currently on ipad) but I am good with a lynch of Agar, Tony, talah, or KA. I'm also on the fence on farside primarily for the 180 on KA. I feel pretty strong town vibes from qwints, tip, and zito. I was kinda leaning dumb town on Aronis but his unwillingness to unvote himself makes me wonder if he is playing that angel up a little too hard. Everyone else is somewhere in between....I will expand more on this as necessary and after I update all my notes (not sure when that will be though).

Open question to all: anyone else feel agar is being scummy or am I off base? Who has strong town vibes from him? The DIEDIE post sure felt like a bus too.

I dunno about AGar yet but you're off-base on me so there's that. I'd really like to know about your TiP town-vibes as well, since his pushes so far have been scummy as hell.

[talah]

The DIEDIE post sure felt like a bus too.

Oh. Dear. God.

Please tell me you aren't serious.

Well I agree on this. Bussing spec on Day 1 without a flip is the height of stupidity.

Talah is attempting to meta people off of one game played. Lord help us all.

Unfortunately this is idiotic. So we're back to square one as far as me thinking you might be quite sensible as town if I consider that might be the case.

[talah]

No really. You can't meta people off of one game. That's what I'm getting at. And now twice I've seen you make references to one game for people and make snap-judgments of some form about that. So if you have more, please tell me (this is meant with 100% sincerity, not sarcastic like I usually aim to be) because I saw you are a good player in Gundam, but I don't like meta to begin with and then when someone does it in the worst way possible it makes me really cringe and worried.

I really don't think I've made a snap judgement about anyone - at least not which indicates I have an opinion on alignment based on that experience. But having played a game with Oversoul, I happen to know some of the things he does as town. Having played a game with you, I happen to know you're incredibly difficult to read as scum. So these are things which I'll use to cross-reference with any other opinions people float and any other activity which I think might be scummy.

That's not meta champ. That's familiarity. Meta would be me saying "Oversoul did this in a game and was town, therefore he's town in this game" which is explicitly NOT what I'm saying.

[talah]

We're not going to see eye to eye here so I'm just going to move forward with the game. We have an inherent disagreement on what constitutes meta.

Yeah well sorry, I've been accused of meta arguments elsewhere and I think I have a very clear-cut differentiation between META which is looking for overall patterns in a person's town and scum play over a large number of games, and my own tendency to think I have better odds of reading a person if I've played with them before. So I'd tend to take a more wait-and-see approach with folks I have played with.

..ANYway, since meta apparently irritates you, I wonder if you care to comment on TiP's use of SELF-META applying it to me to produce a scumread which he's apparently 100% confident of. Surely that's something you should have been all over given your opinion on meta?

@Oversoul - if I was confused in the slightest about the vote colours, why would I be mentioning Venmar in the first place?

@Tony - if it wasn't because beetlejuice, then why the beetlejuice image?

What were you asking then?

Because he said it was a bad idea to lynch someone in the purples, of which there were only two, the other apart from he being Venmar. I wondered why he would be saying that Venmar was town if he didn't have a read on him.

But anyway, Aronis has answered by way of a couple of effectual grunts, so I'm actually happier with my vote on Tony just now.

It would reduce a room of 4 to a room of 3. You're correct in saying that the event doesn't *directly* affect the day phase, but today's lynch *does* have an effect on the rooms created by the event, since we've already been separated as opposed to our being divvied up after the lynch. Just trying to think in terms of strategizing for the night phase before it rolls around.

While I'm mildly intrigued that you're even thinking in this way, I think you have this ass-backward if you're going for strategy. See what you're saying is (to paraphrase) 'if we ensure that one room has only 3 people in it going into night, any scum in that room which elects to kill will be more likely to kill one of the members of its own room. That way when we wake up day two and the scum has killed another person in that room there will be only two people left, and it's quite possible at least one of them is scum'.

Do you see any potential problems with that as a premise for wanting to rule out room one as lynch candidates?

[talah]

Anyway as a heads-up I'm going to be V/LA from this time tomorrow until 4 days after for the Easter weekend. I'll do the time zone math and post it to mod later, but yeah. Get your juicy discussions in prior to that it you want anything much meaningful from me over the next few days.

[talah]

Why did you sign up for this game Brian?

It shits me to tears that lurking is acceptable site-meta and is read as town by a swathe of players.

[talah]

I'm resisting the urge to post something like "fucking noob", so I just won't, okay? If you'd post some opinions about what you're finding scummy it doesn't make you and the other guy ridiculously easy targets for scum to wagon on. I'm not even slightly sure you're town but I expect more, okay?

HERE WE GO

VOTE: TheIrishPope

You literally have no case on me and you're faking confidence in your read. You're trying to use your charisma and reputation to get people to side with you by acting like your own meta can be applied to another player.

Prove me wrong, sportsfan.

edit: oh it's muffin, I shall have a nice read.

[talah]

Muffin, you're looking a lot like scum in Empire's game where you had that entire fracas with Nacho et al

You're definitely on my wait and see pile.

In other have-played-with news from talah, I'm actually liking Agar's moxy so far. Seems more inclined to interface than I would expect.

[talah]

281 was in response to Tony by the way.

ed: yeah I'm wondering what about providing no content has kk so burned out. I mean it could have been reading the thread but the 'okay unvote' was dodgy too.

[talah]

Muffin, you're looking a lot like scum in Empire's game where you had that entire fracas with Nacho et al

considering you seem to have literally no idea why i did what i did with nacho in that game (hint: it was the third game in a row we were scum together, and we were having a bit of fun while mixing it up from what we'd done in the previous two games), and i can't really tell what specifically you're referring to when you say this, i'm just going to shake my head at you while frowning

Fair enough. Can't say I'd know the difference really with you. I think you replaced in late in FE:A or something. To be honest I didn't read the last chunk of that bleeding-eyes wall you just posted and when I did I had second thoughts. But you know, whatever. I really shouldn't drunkpost and shit.

[talah]

[talah]

My thoughts on talah are already well known

Well if you could take the time to explain why you think that applying something you've done as cult leader to me is in any way indicative of my alignment, that might be nice.

Because at the moment I just think you're manufacturing reads and trying to avoid attention.

[talah]

Alright, so I'm off for the long weekend. Will try to check in every now and then.

@Mod V/LA till ehh - end Sunday 20th by the forum clock I think

Talah feels like scum to me.

O-kay..

Do you have any other reads at all from the last 14 pages of activity?

[talah]

UNVOTE: (Tony PF) in favor of giving PeregrineV a chance, haha.

Why would you do this. It's still the same slot.



UNVOTE: Aronis
VOTE: KingdomAces

As the Aronis wagon has also, unfortunately, ground to a halt.

Yeah except KA's probably not scum. Did you see how I asked him what was going on with him missing that TiP was quoting saying he was scum in the spoiler? And then he answered that he wasn't even fucking reading properly and missed the point. So yeah, pick another target and IGMEOU.

Honestly I dunno if I even need to be V/LA compared to half the playerlist deciding to post so rarely.

Pere, be town.

[talah]

What I'm saying is that a town position (i.e., not knowing alignments) inclines people to think about things in a certain way that scum are less inclined to think.

TIP's posts obviously came from scum-TIP because he quoted them in juxtaposition with the vote on Talah. It was almost 1am when I read TIP's post, and I got that immediately; I'd expect townies to get that fairly easily.

You didn't.

There's a gap, which implies that your knowledge of their alignments this game confused you about TIP's thought process.

Tbh I just attributed it to TIP being kinda crabby at times.

ilu TIP <3

He was talking about KingdomAces. The TIP part was an aside to do with what was happening.

[talah]

What I'm saying is that a town position (i.e., not knowing alignments) inclines people to think about things in a certain way that scum are less inclined to think.

TIP's posts obviously came from scum-TIP because he quoted them in juxtaposition with the vote on Talah. It was almost 1am when I read TIP's post, and I got that immediately; I'd expect townies to get that fairly easily.

You didn't.

There's a gap, which implies that your knowledge of their alignments this game confused you about TIP's thought process.

Tbh I just attributed it to TIP being kinda crabby at times.

ilu TIP <3

He was talking about KingdomAces. The TIP part was an aside to do with what was happening.

IIRC he was talking TO KingdomAces ABOUT TIP. His argument was that TIP would be obvscum to a neutral observer, so someone who didn't think that [i.e., KA] must know that TIP was town.

My impression of TIP was just that he was crabby, though, so I was skeptical of the premise that a scum-TIP presumption would be for everyone.

Wrong. Read the thread.

TIP had just used his own scum-meta as a reason to say that I was scum for doing the same thing.
The discussion you've quoted was about KingdomAces missing the fact that TIP was quoting himself as scum rather than town.

The argument BRO was putting down was that town would have picked up on the fact that TIP was quoting himself as scum to reinforce his argument, and KingdomAces didn't pick up on it.

Now read like an ADULT.

[talah]

I'd be happy with a Zito lynch for today at this stage unless he somehow started pooping townbricks.

First he states that I have no credibility so uh that's literally discrediting
Secondly he asks why I defend a townread, which is not town-thinking
Thirdly he removes the part of his own quote where he vote-hops from Aronis easy-wagon to KA easy-wagon
Lastly he admits he was waggoning Aronis while he thought others were more likely to be scum, and hasn't produced any thoughts on wagon composition

I like Bulba's naked vote and lazy follow up so far, and GiF's comment on that as well. Brian, you don't know me, no, I forgot about that so you can ignore the comment about you being capable of obvtowning if you like (although I still think you can so bleh).

I don't know why people are townreading TIP. He's just smearing shit on me now and coasting, hasn't moved from his initial flurry of laying down strong reads etc. He's actually softing a PR to increase suspicion on me too which is disturbing, comments like "know for a fact", "100% certain", "talah has good reason to [push me]". Those comments are 100% indefensible at my end. Anyway there's more that has been irritating/pinging me about his play, that's just general feel and from memory.
Anyway will read back properly Monday night.

[talah]

Well, you posted it after I'd already been pinged by Zito's post, so I felt we were on a wavelength.

Regarding what I'd expect of you - our previous run-in I think became quite atypical, but don't you think a naked vote's pretty confrontational?

[talah]

Talah's 451 is scummy. It looks like she saw PZ pressure and tried to come up with a case on him after the fact.

Yeah when players try to scumread me with shitty reasoning it kind of brings them into focus for me.

Why were you townreading TIP again?
Anyway Imma stop posting while only half-reading, so back in a couple of days, have at it.

[talah]

UNVOTE: (Tony PF) in favor of giving PeregrineV a chance, haha.

Why would you do this. It's still the same slot.



UNVOTE: Aronis
VOTE: KingdomAces

As the Aronis wagon has also, unfortunately, ground to a halt.

Yeah except KA's probably not scum. Did you see how I asked him what was going on with him missing that TiP was quoting saying he was scum in the spoiler? And then he answered that he wasn't even fucking reading properly and missed the point. So yeah, pick another target and IGMEOU.

Honestly I dunno if I even need to be V/LA compared to half the playerlist deciding to post so rarely.

Pere, be town.

ouch, this post is scummy

You suck.

VOTE: Venmar

[talah]

You suck.

VOTE: Venmar

what the fuck is this?

are you for real right now?

It's me happy as hell to sheep zMuffin onto your wagon because I have absolutely no reason to think that you're town.

And yeah I'm for real, you do suck, because go ahead and point out to me the significant difference between this statement:

ouch, this post is scummy

..and this one:

You suck.

Oh that's right, there is none. They both equally well say NOTHING about the statement-maker's alignment and give practically no information which can be used to actually scumhunt on the owner, and given your current contributions you can go bite a nutsack and be lynched.

[talah]

^This is an interesting one actually, although the circumstances of the *events* isn't exactly confusing.

- I ask a bunch of questions, including one to TIP asking if he's thinking of voting anyone
(His contribution up to that point iirc had been "ooh" and "ahh" at a couple of comments others had made)

- TIP naked votes me

- I LOL, thinking he can't be serious

- TIP naked spoilers some quotes of him from another game asking a bunch of questions

- I realise he's providing these as "evidence" for a read he hasn't explicitly stated and counterpost a Spoilered example example of Beli using his own meta on me to produce an incorrect scumread (from Gundam, think you were in that)

...

- Some time later KA expresses confusion as to whether TIP is town or scum in the spoilered quotes he posted.
(In fact he makes an assumption that TIP was quoting himself as town.)

Starts at post 78 if you're interested, pretty clustered so not hard to read from there.


Now the reason I say this is *interesting* is that what BRO's conjecturing only really works if KA and TIP are *both* scum, I think. As in, if you are scumreading KA for assuming that TIP would say something different in the circumstances, what you're really saying is that KA assumed that TIP would only quote himself as town because he *knows TIP's alignment is scum*.

Anyway like I say, interesting.

[talah]

Just as an afterthought too, it might be a really good idea if we all give indications of who we're prepared to see lynched today, idunno, maybe a list of 3 or more each. That way we can discuss candidates in enough time to get some kind of consensus happening, and have a reasonable idea of potential failovers in the case of claims. The OP states that this game has a decent amount of PRs iirc.

I'm not getting to it tonight because I'm being a lazy fuck, but will commit the time tomorrow night.

[talah]

I'd like to know where TIP gets the impression that I'd be newbscum as well.

My very first game he subbed in late in the game and that's the only other time we've played together. However, I've played probably 10 games, some of them larges. His newbscum assertion seems off and like knowledge he shouldn't have, unless he'd researched it or someone had told him to push it to encourage me to get into a self-meta shitfight.

Juls, you're so so wrong and I absolutely don't have a read on you yet. I've misread both town and scum for walling and aggression before, so here's my advice: try to be somewhat sensible in the ways you go about your business. If you're poking someone, do it for a reason. Be able to back this reason up. And participate

consistently

.

Right now your arguments against me look like you're trying to frame me up as scummy, not scumhunt.
The only thing I really feel okay with is your readslist which I don't agree with completely, but quite a few of the reads you have match with mine. If you

are

town I think there's a possibility of scumhunting together.

Readslist tonight but if you want where I'm tending so far, I'd love to lynch TIP (but I do understand the idea of wanting to keep certain players around beyond Day 1 to see how they prove out), I want to check out Zito again (honestly haven't spent any time reading properly for about 5 RL days now) but he's on the table for now, I'd also be okay with Venmar and KK just on the back of a zMuffin sheep (and lack of anything to make me feel like they're town, so perhaps not just a sheep), and possibly others are quite okay for a D1 lynch. If a Vig exists I don't think it's a good idea to be shooting tonight without at least some hard evidence but *shrug*.

[talah]

Well I'm here and was just about to ^Town you but pre-edit got me.

Ask away about anything, I'm just going to be doing my readslist for the next while.

[talah]

Uh - except I'm still townreading Molla, it's just that the ^Town post would only have made sense sitting under 634.

Did you guys come in to gank me?

[talah]

Yeah except I'm probably going to end up voting Papa Zito or Brosiedon, haven't decided yet.

And I don't think any of my votes have been not-serious by the way, correct me if I may have forgotten something.

Anyway IIINNNNCOMMMIIINGGG...

[talah]

ActionDan

Dunno. Looks like his last set of posts was drunkposting but he's part of the Princeton Wonder Triplets (TM) so I'd really expect him to be doing something useful and it doesn't look like he's doing much except troll. Tentative scumlean but want to see where he goes.

AGar

I'm happy with townleaning AGar for now. His posting has a natural enough flow whereas he seemed far more contrived (calculated is probably a better word) in Gundam. I think my approach in refreshing / revalidating this read will be to keep an eye on what he's saying and why, rather than how he's saying it, so that's probably going to be interesting if I'm around later.

Aronis

Possibly townleaning - I felt for him with somewhat with the self-vote and thought maybe he'd improve with time and less pressure, and he's come to the party *somewhat* so happy enough not to want to lynch him today

Brian Skies

Not too worried despite my initial misgivings about pagetop lulz. Leaning town.

BROseidon

Am worried. I'd like him to reiterate the initial reason he called KA scum for missed town trajectory, because it doesn't make much sense when you actually test the thought process that would make you arrive at that assumption. There's also a disturbing ratio of content to posts. I wouldn't mind him as a lynch candidate.

Bulbazak

I think Bulba is just going to have to prove out. I see townish posting and really liked the naked vote - I see it as confrontational myself and had very little doubt that he wouldn't back it if pressed as town. Subsequent posting seems Bulba-typical, but I'm just cautious here because I don't even think I've *seen* a Bulba scumgame before. So slight townlean.

DeathNote

DeltaWave

Got these two mixed up a lot early game - neither of them seemed to be having an impact on the game.
Townleaning Deathnote because of his offer to catch a bullet (which I think is a really bad idea btw), fully DUNNO on DeltaWave - could be derptown or scum under no pressure deciding to lurk out the rest of today. Probably okay to lynch tbh.

farside22

Town.

BBMolla

GuyInFreezer
Townleaning for 634. Somewhat gut-based and reinforcing a tentative town on GiF. Tricky to explain but might try if asked.

Iecerint

Bit of a dunno, maybe leaning town - I can't exactly follow the way he puts across his thoughts but the thoughts themselves seem fairly genuine.

Juls

Legit a pretty scummy push on me but I've had both town and scum read and approach me in this way. Flat out dunno, would probably be looking for cheerleading town-who's-scumreading-me if scum (which on slight reflection or maybe subconcious prompting is what just happened in post 639 if the tiny percentile chance that TIP's town occurs). Hmm.

KingdomAces

Yeah he can be town unless he's playing the scumgame of his life. I think scum would probably be trying to sell him as scum, too, because his voice can get lost in the crowd and his posting style isn't particularly assertive.

Kublai Khan

Honestly, dunno. Pushes (Reck / Oversoul / Aronis) don't seem to have any meat behind them and are somewhat opportunistic. I don't want to try to talk myself into thinking he's scum, but would probably sheep for lynch if it came down to it.

mnemonicdevice

Haven't been paying much attention. Short iso, maybe a slight townish lean for the unafraid poking.

Oversoul

Can be town. The only ping I've gotten so far is where he's townread me for reasons which have been a smidgeon off what I was actually thinking, but it's a really weak piing. The rest of the posting feels town to me. Oversoul caught me as scum in Hip-Hop Mafia.

Papa Zito

I can't buy this as a town perspective. There's an arms-length vibe about his posts like he doesn't want to personally engage with anyone, he's floated a Day 1 no-lynch of all things and his scumreads are so middle-of-the-road that I would even advocate lynching specifically *outside* of his 3 candidates because it seems likely to me that he's scum trying to guarantee a lynch on town. Strongly leaning scum.

Prof Fridays

Seems genuine enough. Leaning town purely on gut looking at his iso.

qwints

I'm going to gut-townlean qwints too. Haven't paid much attention to him either but seems willing to directly approach and poke players.

talah

HurrDurr. Pushed us out of RVS, unafraid to take the spotlight and active / explaining reasoning behind actions.

TheIrishPope

TBH I wanted to see where he was going early with his naked vote followed by stupid attempt at applying his own meta to me, so left him alone. Then later he comes back in and reaffirms me-scum like somehow his shitty read for shitty reasons is something that is supposed to pass for scumhunting. I've got the tiniest sliver of doubt about TIP but it's kind of negligible compared to being on the receiving end of such bullshit. It feels completely scummy to me. Would lynch, happy to compromise elsewhere if that's the consensus - I have no idea of TIP's recent playstyle or anything like that so will bow to more informed opinions. At least for Day 1.

PeregrineV

Tony PF
Pere's going to need to prove out as well as I haven't seen him play as scum and find him quite unreadable on the whole. Slightly townleaning mainly for his utility-sort of Juls' readslist, which is something he often does as town whether he's aware of that or not.

Venmar

Ugh. I don't even know but will consider lynching because "post x is scummy full stop" is what a retarded marmut says, not someone who's attempting to scumhunt. If it was reaction-testing - well played, lump of coal, well played.

xReckonerX

Dunno. Hope he decides to participate. He was in the same game as Oversoul with me-scum.

zMuffinMan

Ehhhh he can be kind of town. Whatever. I've got probably no chance of figuring him out today anyway and his questioning and reasoning seems a bit more pointed than I think it seemed in the large normal I had to bail out of.

[talah]

PZ has you as a top scumread.
Broseidon has a scumread on KA who you love so much.

Like - are you trying to read me, or are you just trying to nitpick on isolated pieces of nothing to attempt to justify an existing nothing-read on me?

Did you have a question about why I'm scumreading either of them?

[talah]

There you have it folks. The obvious scum is obvious.

ORLY

[talah]

VOTE: Papa Zito

My failover is BROseidon followed by KK.

Please somebody sell me on why TIP's town because I feel like I'm a fucking mental patient here.

[talah]

Townleaning

AGar
Aronis
Brian Skies
Bulba
Deathnote
farside22
BBMolla
Iecerint
KA
mnemonic
Oversoul
Prof
qwints
zMuffin

DUNNO

Deltawave
Juls
KK
Venmar
xReck

Scumleaning

AD
BROSiedon
Zito
TIP

Couple of those townleanings are probably better placed in dunno but I've put even slight townleans in there which will have to prove out.

That's all I got for tonight. Was going to follow up with answers to a couple of questions I spotted while on VLA but frankly interacting with TIP has given me a bad case of get fucked I don't know why I bother spending time on this game. So see ya later.

[talah]

Holy shit TIP, that looks an awful lot like your cult meta.
Why do you assume that I would be newbscum in this game?

@Reck - do you remember Hip Hop Mafia and how I said in the scum QT that I attacked you because I *knew* you wouldn't be lynched? TIP is acting to my scum meta, what do you think about that?

[talah]

Our join dates are not too far off. We only played together, briefly, in my very first game. TIP should not know anything about my meta, let alone be assuming I'm newbscum (and using that as an argument). So it feels to me like he's got access to information that he wouldn't otherwise have, unless he had researched me, or is being fed information from someone in the scumteam who knows that I actually have only one (significant) scumgame out of about 10 or so completed games.

Generally when I'm called on meta I spam the thread with self-meta bullshit which hasn't really been helpful in the past, so I'm suspicious of his reasons of calling me newbscum because it'd be highly likely that I would do that again.

Does it feel to you like this would be me playing as newbscum?

[talah]

Oh and this is going to irritate the shit out of you, but you can do your own fucking meta research if you want to meta per-se since I don't intend to go down that path this game. The scum game was hip Hop Mafia which I've mentioned numerous times, I played as Schillinger (alt). Mini Theme I think.

Also I find it really weird that you think you have a really strong correct scumread on me when you know literally nothing of my play, whereas players who I've played with before have practically no concerns about me. That's part of the reason I'm happy to dispense advice - you're not looking at the big picture, and it looks like you feel like you need to have *really strong reads* to come across as town. And that's wrong Day 1 especially.

ed: ^@Juls

[talah]

That's my sliver of doubt. I don't think TIP will be lynched today. Happy to vote KK.

Okay I feel like a dickhead. But that was me posting.

[talah]

Reck is a bad lynch today.

[talah]

@Talah: Why is BRO scummy? I understand that he called KA scummy, but is there anything else?

I think that to use the reasoning that KA knew TIP's alignment, the normal train of though would be that they must be buddies. That's not what BRO arrived at, however.

Let me put it this way.

KA as scum reads something and presumes it's an example of them as town. BRO as town reads the same thing and presumes it's an example of them as scum. BRO wonders why KA reached a faulty conclusion.

His argument against KA at that point is that KA must have made this mistake because he knows TIP's alignment is town. But the more compelling thought when you think through it that far, would be that KA knows TIP's alignment is

scum

. Because KA as scum would be more likely to be surprised by a scumbuddy posting something where he was scum from another game, rather than a townie posting the same thing.

However BRO doesn't mention anything of the sort which leads me to thinking that BRO is necessarily presuming -something- about TIP's alignment, and in the face of extreme lack of content aside from that one push, I'm tending scum on BRO (and I've already asked him to clarify but apparently he doesn't want to post in this game).

Why the change on AGar?

I've been cautiously townreading AGar for some time now. What change are you talking about and why is this a question worth asking?

How is DeathNote offering to catch a bullet town?

Do scum offer to be vigged when they don't know whether or not there's a vig in the setup?

Why is KK your fallover after BRO?

His posting looks uncomfortable with itself and a bit overly defensive. His votes have been off as well just from memory. I'm not sold on his as scum but if there's support for his lynch I'm happy to go there.

you also have TIP and AD as other slight scum reads?

Yeah that's right, and I'd also be happy enough to lynch Venmar and Deltawave today which I think I mentioned, also slightly agreeing with zMuffin above that there seems to be a fair bit of dead weight in this game which is fine for lynching.

Regarding TIP, I doubt that there's enough support for his lynch today, because generally people find him to be a character and want to keep him around if there's a chance he might be town (which is always the case Day 1). I tend to take the same attitude with people like Nacho and Mastin (and others I guess) Day 1 so I understand that kind of reasoning. I also have an incredibly bad track record of leading lynches and being correct, whereas I have an incredibly good success rate sheeping my townreads onto successful lynches.

Regarding AD - I'm waiting for more content which I doubt is going to eventuate today but I might consider lynching him. It looks pretty unlikely to happen, though.

Why is Reck a bad lynch today?

There's not really enough from him to read him one way or another and he's actually promised more content if he can effectively lurk out today. Whatever. I think there are better options and I think that pressing for his lynch will just cause him to replace so it's a waste of time with deadline only a couple of days out.

[talah]

Let the talah votes pile.
I'll answer questions today.

List of nullreads please.

[talah]

I suppose you mean but not AD and Deltawave.

tbqh AD is effectively off the table for me today but if a wagon was to form on him and townreads agreed I wouldn't hesitate just for that marginal inclination that AD isn't doing anything serious in this game. Deltawave would be a lurker lynch plus I think he voted me quite a while ago sheeping TIP who I truly believe is unsheepable at this point. I'm town, scum want to lynch town, he's useless, so nullish will lynch. It's a lot better to have a lynch than not because largely town decide the lynch.

Are we able to push a lynch candidate forward between us? I don't have any huge scumpings from you at this stage and reasonable arguments are reasonable. I intend to remain active throughout this game and for some reason scum hate for me to be alive historically so I'd expect to be dead within the next couple of nights anyway. Do you like zMuffin for town? I'm thinking of switching back to Venmar just because nothing else seems viable.

[talah]

Well good if you think muffin is town and all other pushes are ineffectual then why isn't sheeping him a good thing? Venmar and you sharing an opinion is no good when his opinion has no meat behind it. He's literally just said post x is scummy, I want to lynch talah. Am I wrong?

Do you think I don't address it when people think I'm scum when I'm not? I mean it seems like you think I have the opinion that anyone that scumreads me must be scum, where I don't. But I am a scum magnet because (I think) I tend to be fairly abrasive and push on things which polite-town don't, plus my reads in general are pretty good recently. It's not naïveté, it's just ignoring a bullshit argument that omgus is scummy - I find town do it more than scum and I think holding back on your inclinations that someone voting you is scummy because they voted you is something which is easily exploitable by scum.

[talah]

And yeah I've been involved in TvT shitfights in every single game I've played as town. What TIP's doing is not a shitfight. He's not engaging at all. He's trolling. I dunno if you're reading that as town, but I'm not.

[talah]

UNVOTE: Papa Zito
VOTE: Venmar

My position for today is clear, and you effectively have a double vote today zMuffin.
Back probably once before deadline.

[talah]

Alright let me put it this way - Venmar wants to lynch me - why?

[talah]

^yeah that

[talah]

Ugh TIP I'm out for the night but on the off chance you're town:

- why then did you say I'd be newb scum before I mentioned it in-thread (this is provable)
- if your cult meta is asking a bunch of questions, then why isn't you asking a bunch of questions your cult meta
- why am I a hypocrite if I say you're scum for emulating my scum meta, when you're scum reading me for emulating *your* scum meta? Isn't that just putting a fine point on an incorrect argument?
- why is Iecerint scum?

latez, it's after midnight and Michael Jackson is here with Gremlins and they both want to be fed. So I have to find a shotgun.

[talah]

Alright let me put it this way - Venmar wants to lynch me - why?

Is this directed at me?

Yes.

[talah]

Ugh TIP I'm out for the night but on the off chance you're town:

- why then did you say I'd be newb scum before I mentioned it in-thread (this is provable)
- if your cult meta is asking a bunch of questions, then why isn't you asking a bunch of questions your cult meta
- why am I a hypocrite if I say you're scum for emulating my scum meta, when you're scum reading me for emulating *your* scum meta? Isn't that just putting a fine point on an incorrect argument?
- why is Iecerint scum?

Dude you're just scumreading me because I'm scumreading you, admit it

1. I said you were newb scum becaaaaause you were acting like newb scum; warming up to the best players and being safe
2. When people talk about meta, they refer to a collection of games over a certain long period of time with recurring trends. This was only one game where I tried this one thing and it was similar to what you were doing. "Cult meta" might have been the wrong term you wanted to use
3. That's the thing, I did thing X, you called me out for thing X and then you do thing X nonchalantly
4. A real Townie would consider the possibility of the both of us being Town. Iecerint is not a real Townie.

I'm scum reading you because trolling and taking a strong, obstinate stance on a townie being scum is a safe play for scum
1) you shouldn't know whether I'm newbscum or not, but somehow you press that as an argument - given that we played together in Oakhaven I'd think you would definitely not presume that I'd be newbscum given how long ago it was
2) correct regarding meta. how am I your strongest scumread based on that? I've seen town base scumreads on their own meta before, I've done it myself before, so far it's been 100% wrong at my end. Why is it a good scumtell?
3) illustrating a point is hypocrisy?
4) I don't know that he hasn't considered that possibility and he's not voting you I don't think



Can you do me a favour and stop trolling if you're town?

[talah]

i'm not married to the idea talah is town, but none of the arguments for her being scum are convincing to me and i see a lot more reason to think she's town than scum (plus, i mean, the fact she seems to be one of the only players who really seems to give a shit about the game is something in her favour)

i'm also starting to get cold feet because of how many people are basically saying "i'm voting venmar because muffin said to". i understand deadline and stuff, but :/

Look I legitimately don't give a fuck who you vote right now I'll sheep it, so don't feel bound to Venmar but I'm bound to feel/read something into whoever you target so I mean it's a responsibility. I am so so tired of Day 1 in this game and I want a flip.

[talah]

Since when does scum have confirmation bias?

[talah]

Hi. Why did you take the italic tags out of the quote you just posted?

Also don't you think that KA thinking that TIP was posting as town implies that KA himself is more likely town? Otherwise how is my assessment faulty? Given that KA follows up by saying he wasn't reading thoroughly, why is what he was thinking a scumtell?

[talah]

I'd like AGar/Bulba/far side to express interest in a viable lynch for today.

^kind of preedit, yeah well I am awake and semi-cut but don't tell people

[talah]

Oh like multiquote? I didn't consider that actually

Why are you still here then? :cheeky:

Honestly I have nfi on the best lynch today. You're voting me though.

[talah]

Too bad your solution to the lurker problem is to prefer to lynch one of the most active players in the game.

I'm just going to say at this point that I'm confirmable overnight and leave it at that in the hopes that we can actually get a lynch through.

[talah]

I don't know. But if you're looking for things which are problematic regarding what you're considering might be a TIP-town vs a me-town argument, then Venmar's both fuelling TIP by sheeping his opinions without giving any reasoning, and he's also being utterly useless aside from that.

I was voting Zito for quite a while and am leaning scum on him myself, but he's also managed to lurk his way out of any pressure. I just wonder why you're voting him but not pushing him as well. But it's kind of widespread at the moment.

ed: well, yeah

[talah]

Why do you think I'm scum?

[talah]

Why do you think I'm scum?

Please explain who you think is scummy without mentioning their read on you.

Excuse me. Can you kindly back off and stop jumping in and preempting the validity of my questions and methods? Do YOU know why Venmar is voting me?

Do YOU know why Venmar is attempting to scream down a lynch on me?

[talah]

I'd rather not full claim but I soft claimed a night action in 842.

While my role doesn't conflict with Venmar's I'll just note that bulletproof bodyguard (effectively) is a tidy claim for scum because it explains him being alive night after night but I've seen it as town (although only 1-shot). If Zor has a history of providing fake claims for scum I'd tend scum on Venmar, otherwise would tend null to town.

Given the Geography mechanic Night 1, I don't know whether to say Venmar needs to be on me tonight or not. I'm probably dead either way which is kind of shitty.

[talah]

Venmar if you're what you say you are I'd recommend you read the fucking rules before you submit any kind of night action.

Because your role is more useless than horseshit in a shoe shop if you don't use it correctly. And you'll just note that my vote hasn't moved either.

[talah]

i get to protect two fucking people this night too

Tomorrow night is double action. Tonight is Geography. Please read this and understand it if you're town. It's really really important.

[talah]

Venmar, protect the other claimed power role. Don't be a baby.


The last chance of a no lynch is Talah.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Talah

Are you trying to force me to fullclaim?
Are you suggesting a good protect action is 2 rooms away?

What are you missing that I can help out with here?

[talah]

Yeah, me too. Less than 3 hours.

Can I just say also that I'm terrified to be spending the night in a darkened room with you three, independent of your alignments. Notional though it may be.

UNVOTE: Venmar
VOTE: qwints

[talah]

Unvote, Vote: zito

Let's see if we can build enough interest here in the waning moments. Willing to jump back to talah....

???

[talah]

Problem?

Yeah, you're stating support for a lynch on a PR and Zito isn't viable unless you think 10 people are going to pop in and switch to him. You don't mention qwints. Problem.

[talah]

You're so idealistic if you think that just saying you are a power role is a get out of jail free ticket. I don't support a qwints lynch. Several people have mentioned zito so I am trying to see if we can get him as opposed to qwints. Plus, I don't think I have the support for your lynch I am pretty sure.

Yeah well maybe I am idealistic in hoping not to have to full claim, but I never said I wouldn't.

So I suppose you're thinking we'll just run me up to L-1 and have a leisurely chat about the merits of the claim with a couple of hours on the clock.
Yeah, sorry, no.

I've

mentioned Zito, quite a while ago when we had plenty of time. But apparently me scumleaning him if he at any point in time expresses suspicion of me, is that most incredible of ezmode scumtells, OMGUS.

You

wait till the 11th hour to vote him when it's not happening and ignore the only other viable lynch.

Sorry if you're town but I just feel like you keep brainfarting.

[talah]

Talah. How have been

Not bad young man. How bout you?

[talah]

I saw that xylbot thing too, although the setup does specify 20 town vs 5 mafia, so I doubt it's any kind of survivor/third paty.

Molly actually heavily implied he'd be visiting Reck last night. Could be a weak, staining role?

[talah]

*Molla. Good ole Molly

[talah]

Oh but VT, nevermind

[talah]

So anyway I visited Venmar last night.

[talah]

What, bring to the table like the big quadratic nothing you're bringing?

Nah, thanks, think I'll give it some time before I bother with a disclosure. Just puttin' it out there.

Besides, I want to go back over KA's ISO and I'm not in a terrible rush to do so just now.

[talah]

Thanks farside (I think). I'm presuming you didn't jailkeep me then.

I tracked Venmar last night. I have another ability as well. I was thinking that a track to nowhere would be distinguishable from a roleblock and might have changed my track if I knew it wasn't. After I submitted I asked the mod but didn't hear back until shortly before I got my result (while I was asleep).

So Venmar either went nowhere last night, or I was roleblocked from my own room (or other less likely scenarios). That might be a possibility but I tend to think that if there was scum which was going to act against me last night in my room they would have submitted a kill. I doubt scum would risk roleblocking from outside my room, nor probably killing.

I could have been roleblocked from my own room, but I think Venmar's claim is far too convenient in explaining why he's alive night after night (considering allusions to a vig and the second kill), and therefore I think my no-result tracking Venmar is more likely to mean that he went nowhere.

VOTE: Venmar

[talah]

Talah: did you ask the mod if you would be given results if blocked. Sorry for the double post. I'm just thinking if there is a way to say for sure if you were blocked or not and no I did not target you talah.

Yep, I specifically asked whether my results would be different if I couldn't get a result compared to if my target went nowhere (like 6 hours after the day ended). When I logged on this morning I had clarification that the results would be the same for "went nowhere" and "couldn't get a result". Shortly after in my PMs I had the message telling me I received no result.

Iece - that clearly infers I was roleblocked, which means it would have happened from my room wouldn't it? Who in my room would roleblock me rather than kill me? I was pretty likely to be an investigative target, rooms aside. I mean MAYYYBE a scum roleblocker in my room would do so and claim they docced me or something later? Iowo.

[talah]

Actually wait if you received null as well I don't know what the deal is.

[talah]

Jailkept maybe but I can only see farside doing that as town.

[talah]

The chances of an investigative PR being in the same room as a scum roleblocker are decently short. Especially considering the neighboriser wifom you point out. My assessment is that if farside-town didn't jailkeep me as a faux-protect, which she's already said she didn't, then scum would have probably either left me alone completely or killed someone in my room, or killed me. I really don't know otherwise. It doesn't make a whole bunch of sense that you'd get no result, and it doesn't make a whole lot of sense that your role is unaffected by geography.

So it seems like either slim-chance roleblocker in my room (which if I was scum in my room I'd probably kill a townie in my room and try to set me up for it - either that or risk I wasn't a cop or something), or that you're either bullshitting about your result and Venmar in fact went nowhere because the only action he can perform is a nightkill, and there's another scum in Venmar's room.

farside - I think KA was the scumkill and Molla was vigged

ed: reading

[talah]

why did you target talah, iece? iirc you thought talah was town at the end of D1 and you're hinting at some sort of investigative role, which doesn't make a lot of sense

also :| i thought it would have gone without saying that people should target people within their own room to (a) maximise the chance of role succeeding, which leads to (b) narrow down the possibilities if an action failed

I wifommed myself out of it. Thought I was dead and thought if I wasn't that I could actually get better deductions if I was roleblocked due to scum not wanting to risk blocks outside of the rooms.

[talah]

bane of my life fartside

[talah]

XD

I love that you're town.

My main problem with Venmar atm is that aside from the track no-result, his claim protecting Oversoul seems weak, and he's not dying for what - three nights now? And hey cool for town it seems. I don't get Oversoul as a protect.

He didn't mention why he didn't protect me, and his talking about it seems like he understands the best moves, but just didn't take it?

Why did BB die then? I mean he was partially suspecting me, he said let's not lynch Venmar *today*, and that's about it apart from saying KA was town. KA had a lot to say and frankly was not scumread by a huge amount of folks, so he must have been saying things of value. Unless you think Molla was somehow going to lynch scum? Or you think he wifommed vig hard enough? Egh...

To me it just seems like Molla was the vig target, especially considering the goo, which I think Pere raised as a possibility too. Roughly half the player list has wifommed vig at this point I reckon.

ed: stop ruining moments zMuffin

[talah]

venmar couldn't have been RBed unless talah is scum or scum have two ways of RBing (or causing whatever a null result means). the only way all 3 of {venmar, talah, iece} are town is if talah was RBed

Why would anyone roleblock a bulletproof bodyguard though? For one, you'd need to clarify with the mod just what the fuck was being roleblocked, and aside from that you'd need to know who the BG was targeting unless you were trying to kill the BG himself.

[talah]

lol farty

zMuffin what else would he claim as scum - he did not know I had a track shot and even less that I'd target him over someone in my room. Everything about the claim seems uber-convenient. I'll think about alternatives tomorrow but to me a very-likely-scummy-strangely-concerning-claiming-random-protecting-guaranteed-living-ongoingly dude seems like the right place to have my vote just now. I'd have to think about Iece's global roleblockers'n'shit or consider someone in my room scum and although I can *maybe* see that as AGar or BRO, I think any of the three would have thought about things carefully and I don't know why I'm alive in that case.

anyway g'night seeyas tomorrow after work

ed: thanks, preedits. This post was meant about 4 posts ago. Latez

[talah]

Ugh, stop being so easily accessible, iPad.

It confused me too, but if I was roleblocked then I actually did fucking nothing last night. Ergo no definitive results on anything I did. Iece has is right and he

should not claim further

- it doesn't help town, just gives scum more info.

[talah]

Farside had outted with a jailkeep.

To directly contrast your example, if KK had submitted a roleblock on me, that would fail.

However if farside submitted a jailkeep on a roleblocker in my room, the roleblock would succeed.

At least that's my understanding.

ed: ^@Pere
I could be tempted to vote AGar but in the balance we did have a kill in Venmar's room as well and if it was actually scum and not a vig that points back at Venmar/Zito I think. Not too worried about Oversoul at this stage.

[talah]

I'll mull it over but happy to support this for now.

UNVOTE: Venmar
VOTE: AGar

[talah]

I've just got to say it - I'm extremely fucking confused about this 'time' thing being intertwined with the geography mechanic. I just presumed that if there was no conflicting action that my action would go through, and that if there was a conflicting action then it would be resolved with priority given to closer rooms.

UNVOTE: AGar

I was happy enough with my vote there mostly for the couple of 'Cheeky scumfuck' remarks he made about TIP and thought that could be an associative. Also because I *didn't* die and *didn't* get a result.

Altogether something's not making sense right now and I don't have the time to figure it out. I mean, does that mean kills were unlikely to resolve outside of their rooms, if other actions were taken by the targets? Or is this just one big 'fuck you town' from Zor?

[talah]

I'm deliberately not posting a snarky comment here.

[talah]

Farside had outted with a jailkeep.

To directly contrast your example, if KK had submitted a roleblock on me, that would fail.

However if farside submitted a jailkeep on a roleblocker in my room, the roleblock would succeed.

At least that's my understanding.

ed: ^@Pere
I could be tempted to vote AGar but in the balance we did have a kill in Venmar's room as well and if it was actually scum and not a vig that points back at Venmar/Zito I think. Not too worried about Oversoul at this stage.

@Talah- 1241

@Pere- 1196

[talah]

Night Resolution Order

0. Special
1. Roleblocking
2. Protecting
3. Mafia Kills/Traitor Recruitment
4. Vigilante Kills
5. Other Kills
6. Miscellaneous
7. Investigations

Same category actions occur simultaneously.

Roles that do two different things will do them in the order indicated. For example, a Jailkeeper with Roleblock and then Protect. If a Roleblocker roleblocks the jailkeeper, the jailkeeper will still roleblock, but they will not protect.

Having played in a Zoraster game before, actions with priority can cancel out actions with less priority. So mafia kills could cancel out other kills and even investigations, as long as scum killed the player who could do such an action. In other words, timing (or resolution, really) plays a very important role in how actions play out.

So in fact, where Zoraster mentions "if they follow someone who is taking the same or longer period of time", he meant to say so that everyone could understand it, "actions which usually resolve before other actions will fail if they are performed in another room and the target's action is performed on a player less distant".

This is really really doing my head in. Does this mean then that kills would automatically fail outside of the same room? If not, why not, and where was that elaborated on?

And what gives with this and the contradicting claim that geography wouldn't affect the action from Iece?

Wait, nevermind. Zoro just sent me a clarification PM. <_<_<

You do have to track someone prior to their action for the track to be successful. Zoro misunderstood what I was asking -- he thought I was asking only if tracking prior to the action would work, and he clarified that it would. But I intended my question to more generally ask about whether tracking at a different time than the action would cause problems (i.e., either tracking prior to someone submitting an action, such that there is no apparent action as it hasn't happened yet; or tracking after an action, such that it is already done).

I would obviously not have targeted talah last night if this had been more clear. <_<

So basically both tracks are 100% worthless, because they both occurred after the claimed action.

So pretend none of this ever happened. <_<

Although I agree somewhat that it seems both tracks automatically failed - what does the time of submitting the track have to do with anything?

Just as a clarification: most power role PMs come with a

Time of Night

section. This time of night ONLY applies when the Time of Night event is active (so at most, once a game).

Ugggghhhhhhhhhhbbblaaaahhhh

[talah]

Also, Venmar and Oversoul were in the same room. Talah would receive no result from tracking Venmar anyways. Then Iece was as far away as you can possibly get from Talah, and Talah only went 1 room over to track Venmar, so Iece wouldn't receive a result either if he is any type of follower-style role.

This logic is flawed. Being in a further room doesn't prevent a night action from taking place, it just places it as lower priority in the NAR.

@Mod: I think we absolutely need clarification on this. Especially regarding in what circumstances an action fails.

Sorry to be a butthole but I can't even think what kind of hypothetical question I'd PM you to try and divine the answer.

[talah]

wat

Can we eliminate this cheeky scumbag already

I'm considering it and if BBmolla really did indicate he was visiting Reck last night, then it just makes him look worse (only if BBmolla was the scumkill though, which I'm not leaning towards atm).

So this is a derivation. Do

you

think BB indicated he was visiting Reck last night? I mean, serious question, I'd like your opinion (in the least wall-based post you can muster).

Either I'm wrong or my bet is scum targeted bb last night. I seriously don't see why people are looking at ka post.

Why do you think BB was scumkilled?

He hadn't even done anything notable in the thread up to that point.

I need to reread his contributions. Do you think KA could have been vigged?

I need to reread KA's as well. KA's actually a bit of an uncut gem (as he whinged and bitched about at the end of FE:A :P) and his reads were pretty good there but he just didn't make a verbal(?) impact. He got killed in the biggest room in this game, therefore with the least concentration of suspicion which makes sense from a scum perspective. Despite people saying he was widely suspected, he was nowhere near being lynched yesterday.

[talah]

Why the fuck is everyone so obsessed with "lack of scumreads" as a scumtell?

Prof - do you have any TOWNreads? Anything? Like feed me something here my educated brother.

[talah]

Why the fuck is everyone so obsessed with "lack of scumreads" as a scumtell?

Prof - do you have any TOWNreads? Anything? Like feed me something here my educated brother.

Question:
I post in thread comments in the game, it's day 2 and I have no scum reads. Why would that make me look town?
Town reads can be faked in my opinion.

Day 2? Honestly I was waiting for you to claim before I did because I thought my result might be influenced by whether you might target me or not. Spec aside I had a read on you Day 1. You're now in my practically incontrovertible town bloc because any doubt was wiped away by your reaction to 'fartside'.

Stupid I know but that's it.


I don't want to jump in over you zMuffin, presumably you've played with Pere before anyway. My read on him hasn't changed since yesterday and that probably wouldn't influence any other input.

[talah]

And now I'm looking for the example above which says "A Tracker tracks a Tracker to another Tracker who Tracked another tracker who got no result. The second tracker also got not result, although the first did. This is because....."

What a clusterfuck.

I already said I have another ability.
Iece said he had the track ability *tonight*
You just claimed full tracker.

[talah]

^I think I futzed my example but you get what I mean.

[talah]

Alright, so this is my weekend lazy post and then I'm taking time out to reset and think about what's gone on. I have a couple of conclusions from Day 2 which I want to mention as well.

Having been involved in the conversations as they were happening, I have a pretty strong town read on Iece now, and I absolutely buy his rationale for submitting a track on me. I was partially submitting against Venmar to confirm or deny him as well (actually hoping to catch him out having gone nowhere or going to where someone was killed in his room) and the fact that I didn't really feel the claim was honest doesn't alter the fact that if he had visited someone and they didn't die, I was going to take that as pretty strong evidence that his claim was truthful. I also subscribe to (what I later found out that I'm slightly misunderstanding but nevertheless) the mastin school of investigative PRs, which is use them on folks you *can't* get a read on. (At least I take this to be a pretty good play in a vacuum, but the fact is that I felt I had mechanical reasons to track Venmar - if the geography event had been in play I may not have gone there with the claim he made, bit hard to reassess in hindsight though.)

If Iece made up the stuff about misunderstanding the mechanic and claiming his action in the way he did, I'll be a monkey's uncle. It just had far too much resonance with me not to have evolved naturally.

I agree totally with AGar regarding AD being the only choice for lynch if we're going to lynch one of us three - and I think it's pretty pointless to lynch any of us right now as further PR uses are likely to clarify what's going on. Although I'm curious about the 3 Night 1 tracks, I actually don't see it as slam-dunk evidence that one of us is *necessarily* scum. FYI I'll probably have to end up claiming before Day 2 is out just because it's relevant to other actions, but at the moment the claims are a bit white-noisy actually.

I've actually got a semi-decent town read on AGar now as well, although I doubt I can articulate it very specifically - I think his play here feels a lot different from Gundam. Mainly the involvement and interactivity don't have such a measured feel, and feel more spontaneous. Even being cautious, I think he's making sense.

I'm also very comfortable with this:
VOTE: TheIrishPope

@The people at the start of Day 1 who said they were finding themselves agreeing with TIP - does this still hold true for you now? If so, what's to agree with?

@farside, I'm just going from memory here on a question you asked, but the answer is no, I most certainly would not have tracked outside of my room had I known that my track would automatically fail when submitted against someone who acted in their own room. If I remember the question correctly?

Anyway, apologies for the thought-dump.

[talah]

@ZZZX

I claimed tracking Venmar to nowhere after he claimed an action

Iec claimed tracking me to nowhere after I claimed an action

Both results are rendered moot by Geography

Can you explain the difference for me please and why this makes Iec scum but for Geography, but not me.
And why the complete reversal of your 1433?

Spoiler:

Well, probably not "more" because I mentioned it at least once several pages ago, but I figure the chance that anyone other than AGar read it is pretty slim.

Reasons to target talah: tl;dr form for farside

1. Talah claimed an action. Trackers are more useful when they target players who have actions.
2. Lots of players suspected talah. Information is more useful when it is about players who are likely to be scrutinized.
3. Iecerint was ambivalent about talah, despite her being one of the closest things he had to a town read. Getting information about ambivalent reads is super important!

The main hitch was geography, and I misunderstood Zora's clarification.

Wait if it was a geo-Card why was everyone claiming? Results were not reliable there

tl;dr -- USER ERROR

LONGER;dr

1. Iec misinterpreted a PM from Zora, used his action non-reliably. Talah just used hers kind of non-reliably without being able to blame Zora.
2. Iec tracked Talah. Talah tracked Venmar.
3. Talah tracked Venmar to nowhere. Venmar had claimed Bodyguard. Talah was suspicious! Venmar caught?! Talah claims!
4. Iec had tracked Talah to nowhere. Iec claimed his Talah-nowhere result to solve the puzzle, briefly leading people to think that Talah was roleblocked.
5. Everyone realizes that Geography accounts for both null results, qq, cue embarrassment for Iec/talah.
6. ActionDan claims to have tracked Iecerint to talah, hence Iec is obvscum! Or something! (To be fair, logic is actually that 3 tracks is so many omg!)
7. Farside votes Iec for being a liar! Oversoul and TIP vote Iec for the lulz!

Those are the main events today.

wait this is... let me see

Iec tracked Talah

Everyone realizes that Geography accounts for both null results

ActionDan claims to have tracked Iecerint to talah, hence Iec is obvscum!

uh you DID visit talah so obv that is the shittest thing I heard in my life

Vote ActionDan

explain this?

[talah]

Ehhhhhh, Molla's not mislynch-bait I don't think. And last I saw Day 1, KA and I were townreading each other and Molla had decided to townread KA if I get my gut right, and zMuffin had just expressed that he thought I was town as well to Molla.

The way I'm seeing it right now KA was in the room of 5 and townread by some strong personalities.

I still haven't re-ISO'd you yet - sorry KA. Head's been a bit floaty last few days. #beyondthegrave

@TIP - is the weekend over in non-Australia? I thought you were catching up. I don't like your VT claim. It seems like something which you can feign apathy with and also change at the last minute with the excuse that you were "wifomming scum".
Where's the content, bro? What's with the lacksadaisical vote-hopping?

Oh and Nacho seems town, nice change.

[talah]

I read the rules, but don't really have a large enough chunk of time on my hands to make a full catchup right now.

ZZZX, what exactly are you trying to say with that last post? Do you think TiP is too dumb to be scum?

His play is one of a derp PR. A really derpy one.

Except, he's not derp. Nowhere near it. He's a very fucking skilled scum player, and pretty damn good as town as well. A lot of people are going to be inclined to read him as town *because* he's trolling. But he's also putting no effort in. He's taking strong and obstinate stances on players and hasn't contributed anything which helps town. He claims VT with -what?- 4 votes? for towncred and it works both ways for him because he can just claim whatever the fuck he wants later and his troll-meta will have people slavering to believe it. In the meantime he plays the 'poor defenseless TIP who needs saving' card, and hopes to be read as the martyr resigned to his fate.

Derp doesn't come into it anywhere.

How's your own catch-up going, by the way? I haven't heard much from you except current events and I'm hoping you have a smidge more time than Reck apparently did.

[talah]

Kind of makes you wonder why TIP pushes Tony PF hard as my scumbuddy and then doesn't touch it when Pere replaces in, doesn't it?

I'd have to see a lot more from Pere to make an assessment, and even then...

[talah]

^@zMuffin, hi farside

[talah]

That appears to be what both you and zMuffin are saying - and between the many many words that zMuffin uses to come to the conclusion, and the direct opposite from you - I still don't have any clear sense at all on why either of you are thinking that.

My thought would be - He's not NOT the best. So I directly disagree.
Unless, I mean - are you saying you have a slight scumread on him and want to save him for later?
Or a slight townread, so - Juls instead?

I don't get it.


Anyway shout-out for lurker-prods please Zor. A third of the roster hasn't posted in over 48 hours.

[talah]

Actually I meant to get back to that after Bulba asked, been at work. Gut, and I see it as sometimes useful to lay down an initial read one way or another when my scumometer blips toward town for whatever reason. I don't doubt Nacho can give a pretty stunning facsimile of his town-self especially in one post, however, I like the fact that he popped in, stated he didn't have time right now to catch up (effectively committing to catch up), and then asking a decently relevant question about a recent post. If his subsequent posting doesn't match what I'd expect from town-Nacho, I'll have no problem calling him on that. I'm not really scared to change reads if different evidence comes to light. I'll just explain why.

Also thanks Bulba.... I think?
#scumwanttalahdead2014

(actually I'm too lazy right now but will post the VCs later, that wagon switch from Venmar/me onto Qwints is pretty interesting. Venmar's wagon hardly budges. Mine evaporates and ends up on Qwints.)

[talah]

Oh and I did end up quick-reading KA's iso last night. The impression I got was that several of his reads were pretty non-standard (although I don't remember exactly what these were, just that a few were a bit different). I recommend the reading! His iso's only thirty-something posts long. Think I'll have a quick look over Qwints as well, although he really only came good at the end I think and even then when you're about to get lynched, instincts get a bit skewed. Nevertheless...

Probably back toward prod timer as I'm out for a long day tomorrow.

Couple of questions though -

AD - what inspired you track Iec in the first place?
Zito - who do you think was more likely the scum kill? If you think Molla, aren't you concerned that you were being set up by one of Oversoul or Venmar (or both)?
TIP - can you briefly explain to me why you think OMGUS is something that scum do more than town?

Aronis
Aronis
Aronis
I see you baby, lurkin' that ass
lurkin' that ass
lurkin' that ass

[talah]

And in what way was that, my good man?

I did catch up
Content...
Iec is still scum because there is no fucking way town would omgus as blatantly as he did
I didn't vote hop, i just know when to stop pushing for a lynch that simply won't happen
And there's nothing I can say right now that will make me seem town so enjoy your mislynch

Scum OMGUS blatantly and town don't?
I'd think it'd be the other way around myself.

You were bandying it around as the other reason I was scum yesterday as well.

[talah]

I don't understand what you're saying.

It's like you're saying "An Orange wouldn't be orange if it was a Banana"

[talah]

Yeah but what's the Y? That's really the thing.

[talah]

If you look at his series of posts he marked as drunkposts - I buy it. There are maybe 8 or so and I'd just townread him pretty solidly due to earlier play and voted you, so my guess is he took an impulsive leap of faith and decided to sheep.

Also he doesn't need a scapegoat unless you actually flip town, in which case it would be just the opposite - setting up a lynch for tomorrow. Rather than fingering someone else as a mislynch he could jump to.

Your reasoning doesn't make much sense, and again, just tunnelvision which I think is a lot easier for scum than trying to make coherent arguments.

What's your read on Brian? He's not having bouts of perfect logical sense which I'd be looking for in him-town.

Anyway I won't hassle you anymore tonight.

[talah]

his wagon seems to be gaining traction so easily.

Still thinkin' this?

[talah]

Vote: Oversoul

I mean, Juls can wait, but really what is this?

When did you get a scumread on Oversoul, and why? Walk me through your thinking on this please.

You claimed you protected Oversoul last night. Something significant must have happened.


@Nacho, how's your catch-up coming along? I mean I know you've been hanging out with Thor, but still...
Your TIP-meta conclusions are giving me the irrits. They seem needlessly shallow, in the form of "TIP does x as scum and y as town, he did y, so he's probably town".

How do you intend to sort me? zMuffin? Bulba?
These are players you should have some decent sense of how to sort.
You're not trollfucking your way through this game.


@zMuffin, I'm not too worried about Bulba and if what I spotted in pre-edit is correct then I agree - BRO is the only person who was in my room last night that I'd consider lynching; even then it'd be compromise without more info. Regarding your wall, I see you at least mentioned in one instance what you were thinking at the time as you were reading through. But going back over posts in such detail after you've already reached a conclusion reads to me as making the evidence fit the case. Despite the amount of work you put in, I'm not buying it (and I was going to say that last night before you even did the work but I actually wondered if you'd do it or not).

Also dicks.

[talah]

Throw cards at: Venmar

Rot in hell.

What does your action actually do with regard to the day ending?

Also you have two shots today fwiw (due to the double action mechanic being in effect). Venmar claimed bulletproof bodyguard so presumably he has six lives effectively if his claim was true. (As to his alignment, well that's another story but I don't know why he's asking a vig to waste shots on him if he's town.)

I don't suppose you killed BBMolla last night? It would be really helpful to know if you did.

[talah]

it's not a read i fucking plucked out of thin air, it's a read that's been slowly developing over the course of the game and you could see that if you've been paying any attention to my posts re: bulba for the entire game

zMuffin, I've got around 20 players that I have to try and figure out if they're scum or town, so you'll excuse me if I haven't exactly been poring over your every post with tear-filled adoration and total belief. I have an overall picture of what's been going down between you and Bulba, and at the moment I'm going to title it "Ode To Why A Defense Of Aronis Is Actually A Big Chunk Of Null".

[talah]

I didn't find it all that inconsistent - he threatened to kill someone D1 iirc.

Pere, I've been meaning to take you up on your offer to be asked anything but am having a bit of trouble thinking of a question which would help me to figure you out one way or another. Had been hedging around whether it might be useful to ask you what you thought about the Day 1 wagon compositions (as I'm finding it really significant that most of the people voting Venmar didn't move) but didn't really want to come to you with a half-baked notion without thinking it through myself. Also wondered what your thoughts were on AD at the moment, and whether scum would almost certainly not shoot outside of their rooms last night (er.. that last I already know my position on). Anyway feel free to ignore or answer only what you find relevant. Mainly I want to get a sense of how you're approaching the game (and let you know I'm not ignoring the offer, just have nfi how to approach it meaningfully).

[talah]

Semi lurking is just another way to say active lurking Aronis, thanks for admitting it even though you're probably a VI

Why did you tell him to use his shot on you?

If you're town and he's town, you've just wasted two shots of town power.

[talah]

That's it? Really?

[talah]

Oversoul!
It's okay.

[talah]

I hadn't thought about the geography much since it's going away, but I'll go look over it again.
Are you thinking that once the NK target was selected, that probably the closest available scum did the kill?

Because the only issue I have with that is "why bother?" Chances are good the target won't be protected, so in that case I wouldn't think distance would matter. Pick the kill, send the gooniest/least likely to be tracked.

I'll come back to this later (gotta go to work, it's Friday morning here and then *yay* a week off) but my thought would be that scum wouldn't want to fuck up the geography mechanic so they would almost certainly make the kill in their own room (so we can probably PoE that there is scum in whatever room the scumkill was made in).

I want to clarify this with Zor as well. But my now-understanding of the facts is that if scum submitted a kill against a PR who made an action in a different room, the kill would fail. If that's not the facts then I'm really going to have to figure out why. (Or actually fleeting thought - would it only be true in that case if the PR was non-investigative PR due to resolution order, and in the case of an investigative PR it would succeed unless the kill was *two* rooms away? Anyway back later.)

[talah]

Talah: where did you see the soft claim day.

I didn't specifically see day, but I don't think it's by any means impossible that a vig role could be Day/Night agnostic. If that's what you meant. Otherwise:

Talah votes are shit

venmar

Someone please kill me tonight

That's it. I'm not killing you anymore.

Is the previous reference to killing that I saw.

[talah]

Which is basically what I suggested earlier about Zito....I didn't think about that with talah but it is a good point.

Can you reiterate the good point in your own words please?

Because it's provably fucking stupid.

[talah]

Ergm.. sorry - to both of you. I was going to post an apology immediately afterward but started to explain why it was incorrect as well and am at work and don't have the time or headspace.

[talah]

And not exactly unusual. But anyway.

[talah]

You could just vote TIP. Not exactly wagon-fodder. Kind of difficult to lynch scum.

I actually get your point now btw but was/am quite a lot more involved in whether the mechanics tell us anything. Just thrown half a dozen questions at Zor so the responses will be interesting.

God's gift to Mafia

You just *know* that's going in my signature after this game ends, don't you?

;D

[talah]

With you...yeah, you would take that as a complement.

I don't really see TIP as all that scummy. Zito has been completely useless and like I said before, scum would want their scummiest player to do the kill in case they were caught in this role-heavy game. Of the two rooms, Zito is the scummiest.

That makes sense to me, but I'm worrying over Venmar/Oversoul if Molla was the scumkill (due to him being easy pickings) (not to mention Venmar's claim which is he's guaranteed alive for several days) and the Blue Goo thing has me a bit freaked out, but I *suppose* it's just as likely to indicate a scumkill as a vig kill when it comes down to it (ie Mod fuckery).

I'm still really stuck on this, but if i was scum with what I currently know of Geography, I'd be making the kill in the largest room so as to not narrow down the pool of scum. It relies on assumptions, but that's where I'm at (confusingly).

[talah]

i would vote zito but... i'm voting scum

also

whatever town does in this game, please don't let nacho make it anywhere near lylo. it's not his fault he replaced into a scum slot, but he did, and it's unfortunate, but *shrug*

Thanks for this direct parallel to NY 169.

[talah]

Bulba hasn't deviated from what I'd expect from him as town. I have paranoia but it's not troubling to me any more than say, yourself (well actually you can be an exception here), AGar, or Brian. But you're starting to shit me and I variously read that as scummy depending on the nature of the being-shitedness. In your case I don't really know why you've picked up Bulba as your pet project considering your lack of actual scum reads elsewhere, dropping Venmar when his wagon was at full steam then picking him back up when it wasn't happening, having null on TIP for two days in a row but not wanting to lynch him, and then the mega-wall which on the whole I'm tending to thing a person wouldn't do unless they had an audience to play to - and fuck if Oversoul actually read it (penis references?) - so my mind flutters over the possibility that you'd be more likely to present it to a scumteam first rather than do the thankless work on a case most wouldn't read and which was basically null as soon as someone mentioned the fact that it was working backward. It's something that would have occurred to you as town. I guess you reckon it did. Still don't know why you think it's valid.

[talah]

*think

[talah]

They're not all that fucking interesting. You've posted a lot and ended up hedging on practically everything.

[talah]

Huh? No I mean the fact that Venmar was looking like being lynched despite his claim until you decided to waffle on it.

[talah]

EGH you and Bulba can have it out, I'm not engaging in this right now.

*he says posting a post*

*and pouring a drink*

[talah]

Huh? No I mean the fact that Venmar was looking like being lynched despite his claim until you decided to waffle on it.

Me?
I don't trust venmar. I think the claim is highly suspect and his comments about me being alive at the start of day 2 rubbed me as scummy. That said the other coin flip is he thinks it is suspicious I'm alive because I claimed and he is just a bg.
Prior to his claim I did not suspect him and voted him over you yesterday because I town read you over him.

That was for zMuffin. Everyone's posting at the same time.

[talah]

THANK YOU FARSIDE

Not to mention the MafiaScum.net bad-meta-scourging drive which ends up with what?

No let's don't lynch Aronis. No let's don't lynch Venmar. No let's don't lynch TIP.

[talah]

How in the fuck do you rationalise as town *specifying* a fig target?

[talah]

Ah figs, I remember them.

[talah]

Fuck this. As much as I'd like to *think* I'm dapper when I'm wasted, it's not particularly helpful.

Don't try to fucking lure me back please.

[talah]

. . .

yep, gonna ignore you

Most genuine thing I've heard from you.

[talah]

Prod dodge, sorry. Back before deadline with operational brain.

[talah]

Briefest of outcomes from questions to Zor on Geography, though...

Geography only comes into play where one role interacts with another role (or more specifically where an action is dependent on an action). So followers/trackers etc return a result about an action which is being performed and therefore rooms have to be equal-or-less-than to return the result.

Killing isn't dependent on the track action, so the only way this would be impacted would be due to blocks etc (and then Geography would come into play).

Anyway that's what I'm gleaning. Effectively Iec (et al) is right on that.

Overall the only thing this leads to for me, is to wonder how Molla gets killed in a room with a claimed Bodyguard, for those who are asserting that he was the scumkill.

[talah]

Oversoul, are you softing Vig?

If so, how did the scumkill on Molla happen with Venmar in the room?

Scum are not going to risk killing in a room with a claimed town bodyguard.


Nacho - reasons reasons reasons. WHY do you like Aronis' wagon better than either of TIP's or Bulba's?
WHY are you floating such crappy meta-tells in defence of TIP.

My vote's not moving.

[talah]

I'm feeling you AGar, chill bb.

TIP in my first newbie replaced in as scum and then HAMMERED TOWN WITHOUT A CLAIM WITH THE REASONING THAT THE TOWNIE HAD HAMMERED TOWN WITHOUT A CLAIM THE DAY BEFORE. And Nacho says TIP-scum *isn't* brazen. Nacho's just making stuff up to save TIP for some reason.

[talah]

Tbh i don't think a bodyguard claim is really going to scare scum much. It's not like a dead town bodyguard is a terrible outcome.

It's maybe slightly more true in this case, though, because a bodyguard death is a bit more likely to soft-clear some players while Geography is in play.

2-shot bulletproof bodyguard has to be shot 3 times before there's a dead bodyguard anywhere in sight. You argued that it was a more likely scum role for that reason yourself mister man.

[talah]

Well. Sarcasm was present in that post but if I was scum, I would probably go for the "meta" shot and shoot a BP to make night kills easier.

I don't understand what you mean by this, can you expand please?

My point is that geography certainly does come into play because bodyguard and kills interact and are dependent on one another. So unless scum were feeling confident that the kill would go off without a hitch they'd avoid shooting in a room with a BG present. It's risky because they lose a kill if they get unlucky.

[talah]

Found it, my mistake, sorry.

I'm here if I need to switch my vote. I still don't want to though, because that sounds a lot more like a scum role than a town one. If he's town, that role would guarantee three free investigations after an investigative role claim. As scum, it protects 2/5ths of the team from two vig shots. To me, the latter seems more balanced than the former.

[talah]

No I mean I don't understand what you're saying regarding 'meta-shots' and shooting a BP to make night kills easier.

[talah]

To be honest I usually preface stuff like that when I think of it with "crackpot theory alert".

It makes the tiniest amount of sense only if scum were looking to actually kill such an OP bodyguard rather than push it for Vig to wipe off a vest or two first. It relies on the premise that the bodyguard is actually going to make sensible night-action decisions (which with all due respect, Venmar doesn't look like he's going to even if you think you were a great protect - considering it was Molla that softed the PR in your room), and relies on the assumption that the Bodyguard is pretty much a provable, unlynchable role.

It also goes nowhere in explaining how Molla was scum-killed in the same room as Venmar if they had these presumptions in the first place.

I really don't understand why you'd drop such a wifommy comment unless you were planning to switch your vote to Aronis by the most intractable of leaps of reasoning.

Why is TIP town?

More to the point, why aren't you voting Zito if you think that both you and Venmar are town and Molla was killed by scum? Do you think scum risk shooting from a room (or further) away with one unkillable town protective role and another soft-claimed PR in the same room - who they kill? Would they risk it even from in the same room?

[talah]

Dan, what made you think of tracking Iec in the first place and why do you think he's scum for visiting me?

TIA.

[talah]

When I flip town, what happens? This game goes into shit and scum wins, that's what happens
Always wanting to be right, tsk tsk you egotistic people

*If* you flip town, then you have all day tomorrow to ghoul it up as confirmed town and actually do some scumhunting and try to figure out the game.

Rather than just call people scum with no reasoning, vote hop onto whatever wagon is gaining support, and really do nothing except try to avoid being lynched and get anyone except whoever's currently calling you town lynched. The only exception here is Bulba I think, who you called town "because scum wouldn't do [something]", which is pretty much a scummy reason to take a strong position on anything anyway.

So yeah, you've pretty much had all of Day 1 to do something where I myself decided to leave you alone and see where you might be going - and you didn't - and now you've had all of Day 2 and you've similarly pushed no cases and given no reasoning why virtually anyone is scummy.

The only thing you currently have going for you is that probscum-Nacho is defending you with shitty reasons, and even then that's potentially more likely to be because he wants to spend the rest of this game trolling it up with you rather than because he wants cred for your flip if you're town.

So - nah, I'm not buying the "Ima flip town" guff. You're the most likely scum that I see in this game so far.

[talah]

Well that sucks. Also extended the deadline which is doubly irritating.

I was going to try and wifom a single remaining shot tonight which I wouldn't use but in the interests of town getting better use of this I think it's best I fullclaim. The veto hasn't really influenced this decision except to underline for me that the scumteam aren't subpar.

I'm Town Adjusting Investigator.

I start off at tracker and every time we lynch scum I reset to follower.
Every day we lynch town my night action increases in power, from gunsmith to cop.

Lynching TIP is kind of win/win from my perspective even though I do think he's scum.


I'd strongly advise getting as much info from your PRs as possible tonight. I've just drawn a massive target on my own back but I think I would have been nightkilled anyway so it's probably best that town know this info in advance.

Happily clarify any questions on the role etc. Sorry if you think this is a bad move.

[talah]

Yeah I loosely followed the scummies invitational and had only seen it there before, but hadn't realised that Zor was part of modding that until Nacho mentioned overlap earlier.

Then again in the scummies role and alignment were determined independently iirc.

[talah]

I don't think it's necessarily scum-sided. At worst it leaves a nice paper-trail to PoE where there are two scum in a room if a nominated townie flips.

[talah]

Yeah, no. Veto is best used for something that's definitely scum-sided, not something that just might or might not be.

Room distribution is random, player dynamics will come into play, and while you say it mightn't be as simple as PoEing, it's basically one huge gladiatorial event where scum will have to argue in non-standard ways and justify their nominations. Town can just roll with the punches because they have no expectations.

Veto is probably better used if some crappy LYLO card gets rolled. This particular event isn't bothering me as long as some analytical minds stay in the game.

[talah]

Let me ask you why exactly you think this mechanic is obviously shitty? To the point of suggesting a veto?

I've given my reasons I don't think it necessarily is. Do I have to come up with a different card to prove my point? Or is that just strawmanning?

[talah]

Blegh, I was just wondering why you thought it was veto-worthy.

I'll have a look at the other cards but honestly the use of veto would be situational and should merit discussion rather than a knee-jerk reaction to a Mafia veto. I get where you're coming from activity-wise, but even mafia picking nominees is going to net town information.

Lurkers should be pressured or lynched or (more marginally due to PRs) vigged. I disagree quite generally with wasting our only get out of jail card because lurkers exist in the game.

ed: ^@Oversoul

[talah]

Especially Iecerint, Bulbazak.

Using a dayvig on a claimed bulletproof makes no sense as a reaction test, and if it was a reaction test, all Aronis had to do was out that it was fake.
Aronis threatening the dayvig earlier but not using it and then threatening it now and using it (on a claimed bulletproof) makes no sense and is Aronis bullshitting a dayvig.

Yeeeeeeah except for the obvious explanation that he didn't believe Venmar's claim or that he didn't remember Venmar's claim.

Venmar would probably get notified if a shot was used up too and he hasn't said squat.

How are you reading Venmar by the way?

Also I asked you for reasons on your reads. When are you going to start participating properly instead of just popping in to reinforce scumgendas?

[talah]

even mafia picking nominees is going to net town information.

Not good information.

Are you going to nominate the most likely townie in your room? No? Then it is good information.

[talah]

What scumgendas am I reinforcing?

What are you doing that's town? Fuck if I know scum's agenda, you're just not demonstrating any logic or reasoning with your actions.

[talah]

Any chance you could clarify with the mod what your role does in Double Action please Venmar? It kind of seems conflicting that single-shot uses don't get doubled but the bodyguard component isn't single-shot...

Can you also ask if you get notified of shots being used in your vest? The only other time I've seen BP bodyguard was in Gundam SEED and I'm pretty sure that the role there got notified if the shot was used.

Sorry to get all unmysterious and all.

[talah]

Also...

@Mod - V/LA until the 18th

I'll be around before deadline but was looking forward to a bit of un-Mafia time while on hols. The changed deadline means my posting between now and night will be minimal.

Please don't let all hell break loose.

[talah]

I assume there have been some claims, I don't think I'll care about them, but if I'm wrongly voting someone because whatever, please tell me off, the rest of the thread can remain a mystery unless I'm that bored.

The claims are kind of important. If you're not catching up on anything else, at least do that.

I'm Town Adjusting Investigator who tracked Venmar last night
Iecerint has claimed he used a track last night on me
ActionDan has claimed he used a track last night on Iecerint
Venmar has claimed Town Bulletproof Bodyguard (with a 2-shot BP vest)
Farside has claimed Jailkeeper who kept Kublai Khan (Nacho's slot) last night
TheIrishPope has claimed VT
Aronis has kinda-sorta claimed Dayvig who used a shot on Venmar

I'm also confused why scum decided to extend the deadline for this day

They didn't exactly decide to extend it except as a side-effect of the Veto, however, yes that could have been partly leveraged to avoid the lynch on TIP which was at its peak of around 8 votes at the time.

I don't think it's necessarily scum-sided. At worst it leaves a nice paper-trail to PoE where there are two scum in a room if a nominated townie flips.

Explain this more please, I'm not seeing that scum must be in a room. Or how town would manage to not nominate more town at all. (aka the game isn't over yet.)

Because of the reduced options for lynch, scum will be trying to avoid putting any of their members in the reduced pool. Where there are two scum in a room of three it's highly likely that the townie will be nominated which makes for some interesting justifications for the nomination from those in the room. Since the nature of random distribution makes it far more likely that there will not be a nice neat even distribution of one scum per room due to the combinations where this occurs compared to the combinations where it doesn't, it means there are going to be some scum justifying odd nominations. Even better if there ends up being all scum in one room.

Be all and end all, I don't see it as Veto-worthy and I'm really confused at the veto-rush, especially coming from players I would have thought were town.

Hopefully the person has trustworthy people in the nomination room and can then get more PR results.

I don't really know what you mean by this but I'll write it off as replace-in unknowledge, but the rooms themselves don't affect anything except nominations (as opposed to the Geography event from yesterday which did affect actions).

One thing I do want to mention about this is that the previous Die Lee-Da Muertos which was just vetoed (or whatever it's called), would not have produced a benefit of returning at least investigative PR results from the dead due to resolution order. Role blocking etc, yes it would have, I assume.

Also this Nacho flashwagon is ugly. Even though I'm not opposed to it. Vastly prefer to lynch TIP today. Not interested in Aronis.

ed: zomg preedit

[talah]

Metal - oh, sorry.

zMuffin - I'm not going to oppose it nor prevent the lynch at deadline by not voting him if it comes to that. Also I had this awkward visual of you wiping penis off your computer screen earlier. (Yes I did go there.)

[talah]

hey nacho

is it just a massive coincidence you rolled the fake claim you were considering using in 169?

Or that he refers to Yates' scumslip which got him modkilled in 172 - which featured a friendly neighbour / jailkeeper JOAT.


So what are we doing? Lynching TIP? Ok good, guess I can bugger off for the day.


@Juls - type the search in the address bar on the page you want to search - it'll make the screen go blank but right at the bottom there will be 'Find - On this page' as an option. I had to search that doozy awhile ago.

[talah]

Nope, 1-shots aren't doubled (neither are Day actions iirc). It's in the double action rules (and there's an elaboration spoiler in one of the OPs you should read as well.

@Juls - I can't talk for the other guys but one thing I know for certain is that I *don't* get Tracker tonight.

I either get 2 x Gunsmith or 2 x Follower depending on whether we lynch town or scum.

ed: ^@Metal

[talah]

Juls:

Yeeeah... To be honest the Pros of lynching TIP should be pretty obvious. I don't have a problem voting Nacho if it's to prevent no-lynch given that I'm leaning pretty heavily scum on him - but frankly if he wants to continue to trollfuck and not get invested in the game tomorrow, I'll be much happier with his lynch given that extra time to see that as the case.

I also really really really mistrust the nature of the "scumslip" and its ready adoption as reasoning to lynch by fully half (perhaps three quarters) of the people who voted him.

So, it's no problem, I'll vote him if needed, but to me the risk/reward of lynching one or the other based on how I'm currently reading both of them makes me that much more happy to lynch TIP.

Short answer: NoU vote TIP.

And I'm going to get beer now so can we just get it over with.

[talah]

I mean - really. It was TIP's excellently pro-town play of insisting that I was 100% scum because he "knew" and parking on me for the day which forced me to have to claim right?

BBL

[talah]

Because as far as I know, I haven't dropped relational tells

What the fuck TIP?

Is this an actual scumclaim or are you just intentionally being anti-town?
Who is aware of whether or not they drop relational tells as town?

My point is if you're town you're being *absolutely useless* and *absolutely anti-town*. Which leads me to believe you're not town and leads me to not care if you are in that part of the superposition.


edit: Aronis, this mystery-man shit is wearing pretty thin. Are you a vig one way or another, or am I going to waste time thinking about whether I should target you with an action tonight?

[talah]

Rage post was written and not submitted.

Nacho said he was going to work earlier. I'm waiting for him to return. I don't think there is a deficit of folks willing to vote Nacho if it comes down to the crunch. Same can't be said of TIP.

And now I will not post except to move my vote if needed. Not a good idea just now.

[talah]

You're probs scum because of the way you pushed me day 1, because it gave you an out to voluntarily laying down any other opinions on other players

Pretty much every other player has had an opinion on you one way or another

It's no great loss if you're town and lynched



Now let me ask you the counterargument. Why do you think you deserve to stay in the game?

And can you sell me on some of the pro town things you've been doing today?

[talah]

So just want to confirm this

we are lynching Nacho on a scum tell which Papa Zito raised

and we are not lynching TIP despite the fact he is acting like scum and not trying to hide it


Nacho is defending TIP
TIP is voting Nacho


Just want to make sure everyone has everything straight

I mean I consider myself confirmed town and I don't fucking get it


Off to play smite

[talah]

You know what?

The benefits of *not* lynching Nacho town OR scum when he's posted approximately three times

Outweigh the benefits of lynching TIP without reading a single fucking post he's made

I hardly care if any of you are sitting back saying 'OHOH, if Nacho is indeed scum then we've cleverly nailed talah, who claimed his role without any contradiction or equivocation, so we'll get a large bunch of information if THAT just happens. OHOHO."

I'm fucking dead tonight. I'm telling you what the correct option is in the situation. Everyone who's town who just sheeped Zito onto Nacho "because of scumsiip" needs to realise that the scumslip offered doesn't prove Nacho is scum. It likely indicates Zito is town, but it has little to no bearing on Nacho's alignment.

And I don't give a fuck saying that and I can just not tell why a Nacho vote is preferable to a TIP vote.

[talah]

And that helps - how?

Cross off the incorrect options

It means scum will know exactly who any town Vig will target tonight
It means that Nacho does not interact tomorrow because he gets lynched today
It means that TheIrishPope lives another day and does precisely nothing

[talah]

I was in that game. Muffin replaced into my slot and I read along with it.

[talah]

I find it far more suspect that Muffin is trying to lynch him.

[talah]

I figure Muffin should be trying to actually work out if Nacho's scum or not if he was town.

And no, Juls, you'd have to be naive to think this couldn't be a repeat of the same game - where Nacho and Muffin (Mainly Muffin TBH) tried to bus the fuck out of one another and spent their days soft-attacking each other which came across as content. Don't be so dismissive.

[talah]

Yeh

You didn't shit all over it

You hedged like every other opinion you've laid down

"fuck it, I'll vote Nacho"
Is kind of my point

The whole exercise again doesn't say much about nacho


I'm going to bed.

[talah]

Stayed Silent?

About what? - Nacho's egregious crimes against humanity?

Nah. You fucking dropped the Bulba push as soon as you thought you could lynch Nacho.

Funny thing is that your actions really don't get a rerun if Nacho does flip town due to 169.

[talah]

*scum

[talah]

You hedged like every other opinion you've laid down

welcome to how i play mafia?

i am fairly cautious, i tend to prefer taking optimal approaches over risk-taking, and i don't pretend to have any more confidence in my reads than i do

Do you deliberately alter your town meta to make your scum games easier?

[talah]

If you weren't taking risks you wouldn't be lynching Nacho Day 2.

[talah]

Why do you simultaneously have complete confidence in Nacho-scum, and devastating doubt about his alignment?

[talah]

And why then isn't the natural progression "well we'll see what the fuck he has to say tomorrow"?

[talah]

Also

Nah mate

I've been the only person here to push Nacho apart from maybe Iec for any reason which wasn't borne of the "Veto Scumslip"

[talah]

i would vote zito but... i'm voting scum

also

whatever town does in this game, please don't let nacho make it anywhere near lylo. it's not his fault he replaced into a scum slot, but he did, and it's unfortunate, but *shrug*

This is *such* a great push on Nacho. I'm sure he's feeling all of that LYLO pressure. A few days from now.

[talah]

Riiiight. Because playing the game correctly is lynching whoever the fuck *you* want, while you constantly hedge on "never having read Nacho right before".

Okay. That makes sense to me.

[talah]

Night guys. Seeya in the dead thread.

[talah]

I'm here.

@Iec and @mnem - so this is interesting but I just had a mod clarification PM regarding what I mentioned in paragraph 6 of post 12 in our nomination topic. What I said there is incorrect.