The Second Fortnight (Game Over)

[Quilford]

VOTE: D G B

DEE GEE BEE

[Quilford]

well kanye is town (by first principles)

[Quilford]

VOTE: The Bulge

[Quilford]

He made a poor reads post. Poor reads posts are the domains of scum, let me tell you

[Quilford]

Looks to me more like someone posting without regard to their alignment at all

Please explain how this is possible.

[Quilford]

kuribo: You're making me nervous buddy. I'd really like some sentences in the format 'X is scum because Y': you're calling people out as scum, sure, fine, but I don't really understand why. The words you have put with your votes so far have not been very enlightening e.g. "free town cred for the next person on his wagon" and "Time to play ball"

[Quilford]

yea, bulge has town responses

I was masons with Bulge in a game recently. he seems considerably more self-conscious and nervous here.

[Quilford]

he's going from irate to jokey to self-deprecating to sarcastic too fast

[Quilford]

Why haven't you answered the bad = town post?

I changed my mind after iso'ing.

Really? What was it about my 30 words spread across four posts that was revealed to you when you iso'd me that you had missed when you were just reading them in context? Would very much like to know.

[Quilford]

Aegor: why are you voting Banakai? You cited #13 and #14, but those were 14 pages ago. If your vote is still on him he must have done something further to warrant it. Or am I missing something?

[Quilford]

Also farside, kkb, Metal Sonic, Rob13 and T-Bone are all town because they are convincingly scumhunting.

[Quilford]

I'd also like some more reads from cheery/INAUFTA

[Quilford]

Yeah, kuribo, but the question I find myself asking when I read your posts is

why?

You've got the first link in the chain, the actual thing that you find scummy, and you've got the last link, which is 'hence [player] is scum', but I think you're missing all the bits in the middle, the parts where you explain

why

the thing that you find scummy is scummy.


"how is it rob13 understood that I saw it as scummy but you apparently dont?"

Come on.

Rob

had to ask you

"do you think it's dumb or scummy or both". That is, he couldn't tell whether you were pointing something out for being dumb or being scummy. Again, I find myself asking the same questions with your Bulge posts. You're not explaining

why

they're scummy, so your long exchange with him I couldn't decide whether you thought he was newbtown and were gently chiding him or whether you thought he was scum. This made your subsequent vote on him unconvincing.

[Quilford]

It's kind of like, you quote the posts, and you imply it should be obvious why they're scummy, and then you put a vote down. But you don't show your working.

[Quilford]

No, let's not split hairs



I will spell it out for you: if you know you're tired and the reads are mediocre, why even bother posting them at all?


They are absolutely no fucking good to us if you're just gonna be like "lol I was tired they don't mean shit"

For example, here you seem to be saying "posting mediocre reads while tired and then retracting them later is scummy". But you never actually say that explicitly. You

imply

it, by saying "why even bother posting them at all?" and "They are absolutely no fucking good to us", but you never actually say "this is scummy", much less explain

why

it's scummy. It looks like an elaborate fence-sitting dance to me.

[Quilford]

Feel free of course to liberally apply correction if I have grossly misinterpreted that post.

[Quilford]

he's going from irate to jokey to self-deprecating to sarcastic too fast

Anyway, here are examples of Bulge's tone swings that are making me uneasy

irate:
"You're attacking my playstyle right now. That's not scumhunting, nor is it helpful or relevant. I told you my reason.
I told you it was a shit reason. Stop digging. You're not going to find anything."

self-deprecating:
"I hate blaming playstyle because it's such a scapegoat, but honestly this is something I have huge problems with as town and always have. I joined this game in hopes of improving my abilities (look at me improving!) and learning how to play without acting under the impression that I'm going to be mislynched no matter what (although this is usually the case...)"

jokey:

I really want Banakai to be dead.

Reasons?

Reasons.

sarcastic:
"So awkward wording is a scumtell now? Nice."
"What I learned from this post is that I am either a) scum or b) town. Thanks for that, very helpful, A+."

[Quilford]

Fine. I guess my biggest complaint is that you took issue with Bulge's post because it was "posting bullshit reads that you're going to make excuses for ... [is] really not posting at all and thus not even really helping us" (which seems more of an argument for Bulge being unconfident/anti-town rather than scummy), rather than the crappiness of the reads themselves.

You totes do do "X is scum and the reasons are Y, Z, ZZ, ADGB" btw

Anyway. I had a look at Gay Mafia II to prove your statement 'i don't do "X is scum and the reasons are Y, Z, ZZ, ADGB"' as blatantly false (which it is ^-^) but then I came across us having the same argument as we are now, around what i perceptively labeled at the time (and will now continue to do so) as your "conspiracy theory tone", so I feel better about you being town now I THINK.

[Quilford]

I SHOT DGB. WITH MY VIG BULLETS. SHE DIDN"T DIE. TYVM.

[Quilford]

quilford identifies dgb scum in #1296 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p4541279

when does kuribo identify dgb scum? oh dear. oh, dear. is that... #1526?? http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p4543818

[Quilford]

AND WHAT KIND OF SCUM DOESN'T DIE WHEN YOU SHOOT THEM OKAY THEN

I KNOW

I WAS SUCH A NEWB BACK THEN ;-;

didn't have the nerve to go through with the dgb lynch

[Quilford]

anyway i hope this is scaring the pants off of dgb. DGB EXPLAIN YOUR READS ALREADY, YOU'RE AS BAD AS KURIBO

[Quilford]

well i mean, to be fair you also forgot that we have played a game together as a hydra

our hydra has like two posts on the record, you'll have to forgive me :P

[Quilford]

VOTE: Aegor

His Banakai vote is very weakly justified.

[Quilford]

DGB EXPLAIN YOUR READS ALREADY

Give me 3 reads you want explained.

T-Bone
hiplop
me

[Quilford]

Hmmmmmmmm

[Quilford]

Quilford: what is wrong with aegor's vote and reasoning for being on banak?

It's extraordinarily weak? Out of 33 posts that Banakai has made, Aegor justifies his vote based on only four of them, of which two were made in the very first page of the game. That doesn't convince me that Aegor's scumread is particularly solid or consistent.

Also, the four posts that Aegor calls out he does for really terrible reasons:
-- an RVS vote for allegedly being particularly "lame" and showing "discomfort" (do you see any discomfort or lameness in the post in question? I don't.)
-- another page 1 post for being a "vacuous statement about kanye". Vacuity is hardly alignment relevant.
-- apparently Banakai's post #167 is scummy because he is "casting suspicion on someone without voting them". Well, Banakai said specifically in the post "If he had other suspicious posts he would probbably be my biggest scum read now"... really, anyone who has more than two scumreads and only one vote is casting suspicion on someone without voting them. Another weak reason.

I could go on. But it's much easier to see for yourself. Pull up Aegor's posts, pull up the posts of Banakai he takes issue with, and see whether his reasoning is valid.

I think it's pretty obvious that Aegor is trying to fake scumhunting.

Can we get some more votes here?

[Quilford]

VOTE: Aegor

His Banakai vote is very weakly justified.

Are you serious? My vote on Banakai -- which was the

first

vote on him, by the way

The fact that it was the first vote on him doesn't matter in the slightest. How on earth would that make a difference?

-- was justified with reference to specific posts, and I elaborated upon my dislike for those posts.

Yeah, your elaborations were weak as hell. Vacuity? Discomfort? You're really reaching.

I have several times since then pointed out other problems I have had with Banakai's posts.

Three more times. Banakai's made 33 posts total.

Since then, several other posters have voted Banakai. Tell me which of

their

votes was better justified. Show me their justifications. And then read my freaking ISO.

Their votes aren't relevant. It's the very fact that you've justified your vote more than they have that makes me want to vote you, because so much of your justifications are about trivial things.

[Quilford]

[snip]

:?

Defend based on said meta.
Don't trust the meta read.

:neutral:

Well spotted.

[Quilford]

Another reason I think Aegor might be scum is because there

are

legitimate reasons for considering Banakai scummy, but he's not using any of them. In Aegor's posts about Banakai, he can't see the forest for the trees. He's concentrating on individual posts from Banakai, and taking issue with really very minor wording-related or other trivial issues with them, rather than looking at the big picture like for example T-Bone does in the post below. (This is one reason I think T-Bone is likely town.)

Why does everyone think I am scum with T-bone? I still think T-bone is scum and I will in fact join his wagon .

Hey buddy, so I looked through your ISO and surprise, surprise (not really), while you have said 'Bone is weird" you have nothing in there to suggest you thought I was scum. You told Prof Friday's you don't think scum would crumb being scum, and that was really the only thing you've said about me. Then you decided later "I want to put my vote on Bone". And then changed it for awhile to Bulge. But now that my wagon is at L-3, you so conveniently think I'm the best vote again...with little to no explanation. With absolutely no read progression at all. (This paragraph sums up his lack of read progression).

This is a very strong reason to consider Banakai to be scum.

Aegor's piffle about how Banakai's RVS posts are "vacuous" and show "discomfort" is not, and it's arguably incorrect piffle anyway.

[Quilford]

lol

[Quilford]

because so much of your justifications are about trivial things.

This game has very little content. I do what I can with what I have.

lol

[Quilford]

Yeah, your elaborations were weak as hell. Vacuity? Discomfort? You're really reaching.

I do not think so. And I have not yet seen a stronger case on any other player. You are more than welcome to point to one.

lol

[Quilford]

The fact that it was the first vote on him doesn't matter in the slightest. How on earth would that make a difference?

The fact that my vote was the first and there have been several since indicates that something is bothering players about Banakai's posting.

That doesn't mean they're right; it doesn't mean you're right; it doesn't mean your reasoning is not weak.

[Quilford]

Did you even read post #450?

[Quilford]

No

Mmm

[Quilford]

Honestly I see where quilford is coming for. He's seemingly trying to blend in the background and appear protown without actually having to give his reads. Its class book mafia play

I don't know about that. Aegor has given reads, in as far as calling kanye's posts "awesome" and saying "I like T-Bone and do not think he is scum. Do not like Rob. Do not like DGB's boring post" can be considered giving reads.

It's just that for the one player he has gone into more detail about his reasoning is incredibly flawed, and for all these other players the reasoning isn't there at all.

[Quilford]

It's just that for the one player he has gone into more detail about his reasoning is incredibly flawed, and for all these other players the reasoning isn't there at all.

It is not flawed. You just do not find it compelling. There is a huge difference.

No, it's flawed, for all the reasons I went into in #447 and more.

[Quilford]

No, it's flawed, for all the reasons I went into in #447 and more.

You did not point out any logical flaws. You simply stated that you disagreed with my reasoning. Recognize the difference.

Flawed. Not logically flawed, just flawed. It's an adjective. Learn the difference.

[Quilford]

No, I explained why your reasons for thinking Banakai's posts were scummy were wrong. e.g. Banakai's post contained no nervousness, vacuity isn't alignment indicative, neither is casting suspicion on a wagon while voting someone else, etc

It would follow from them being wrong that your case on Banakai is flawed.

[Quilford]

Please do not confuse your opinion with some objective reality against which others' opinions should be measured.

I'm going to go ahead and do that until you explain what you saw as nervousness in Banakai's posts, why you thought vacuity was alignment-indicative, and why you thought casting suspicion on a wagon while voting someone else was alignment-indicative.

If you don't do that, you're simply asserting that Banakai has committed scumtells without providing evidence that he did so or even explaining why they are even scumtells, and therefore you are not substantiating your arguments. So your case is flawed.

[Quilford]

I'm going to go ahead and do that until you explain what you saw as nervousness in Banakai's posts

You are more than welcome to ISO me for the word "nervous," or even the stem "nerv." You will not find anything; you were and are putting words in my mouth.

No, I wasn't; originally I said "discomfort", it got mixed up with "nervousness". Where do you see discomfort in Banakai's RVS post?

why you thought vacuity was alignment-indicative

It was used to justify fence-sitting on kanye. Read my posts.

Literally nowhere in that post do you say explicitly or even insinuate anything of the sort, lol

and why you thought casting suspicion on a wagon while voting someone else was alignment-indicative.

Because it was a scummy push for several reasons:
1) Naked vote on T-Bone
2) No explanation of why T-Bone is more vote-worthy than The Bulge
3) No explanation of why T-Bone is a stronger scumread than The Bulge
4) Preparation for a future vote on The Bulge is such a wagon developed...
5) Which happens in 177, with no explanation or anything in between.

None of that explains why casting suspicion on a wagon while voting someone else is scummy.

If you don't do that, you're simply asserting that Banakai has committed scumtells without providing evidence that he did so or even explaining why they are even scumtells, and therefore you are not substantiating your arguments. So your case is flawed.

Unsubstantiated does not mean flawed. Learn the difference. And anything that is not a statement of fact is ultimately epistemically unjustifiable, but that is certainly a philosophical rabbit hole.

If an argument is unsubstantiated, it is flawed. I'm going by flawed as 'having or characterized by a fundamental weakness or imperfection' and having no evidence with which to support an argument certainly seems like a fundamental weakness to me.

[Quilford]

kuribo pls

[Quilford]

Guys. Really. Rob is town.

[Quilford]

There's no cult in this game.

[Quilford]

Hi. I'd like to point out that none of the previous Fortnight winners (to my knowledge) picked the scum via associative tells.

[Quilford]

Yes, because of his

fake rage

.

[Quilford]

fake

rage

[Quilford]

It's not like they were like 'wow, kuribo's rage is pretty fake... hmm... i guess i could see him being town anyway BUT OH WAIT LOOK HE INTERACTED WITH BENMAGE'

[Quilford]

Are you going to be able to note that subtlety in your table?

[Quilford]

What I'm trying to say is compiling a spreadsheet of people's reads is a waste of our little time.

Maybe it would be easier to return to first principles and actually see who's scumhunting and who's not and go from there? Because the key thing that separates town from scum is the quality (and indeed, existence) of their scumhunting.

[Quilford]

VOTE: Aegor

Reasons plz.

I do like farside's posting less and less. I can't put my finger on it, but I'll have to delay iso'ing her until tonight, I'm off sightseeing.

Great, another vague statement that will probably be followed by a naked vote. Are you ever not useless?

I sort of feel bias against age because of his shitty attitude towards me from Austin powers game.

Sorry that you sucked ass in that game. I hope you can put it behind you. :(


VOTE: DGB

The shittiness and hypocrisy contained in this post is truly breathtaking.

[Quilford]

'reasons plz' votes dgb without reasons
'another vague statement that will probably be followed by a naked vote. are you ever not useless' votes dgb without reasons
'sorry that you sucked ass etc' votes dgb without reasons

[Quilford]

MOST LIKELY TOWN

(these people have all made obvious attempts to discern others' alignments, backed up with insightful analysis of posts)

farside22
Rob13
T-Bone

LEAN TOWN

(generally attempting to discern others' alignments, but with less precise analysis or interspersed with fluffy posts)

Banakai
kanyeknowsbest
Marquis
Metal Sonic

NULL

(I'm being led off-course by past experience with these people)

DGB
kuribo
The Bulge

MOST LIKELY SCUM

(

ISO these players

: their analysis of their scumreads is weak or non-existent)

Aegor
hiplop
INAUFTA (Cheery Dog)
Prof Fridays
Untrod Tripod

[Quilford]

The best thing town can do in this game is to be precise. Because it's what scum are worst at.

[Quilford]

Be precise in your reads and your explanations of your reads.

[Quilford]

1. Only when someone asked for them
2. Listing posts does not make it very clear what your reasons are

[Quilford]

if you had not been asked by farside, you would not have provided the ridiculously unspecific 'reasoning' that you did

for someone who seems to take a lot of pride in their argumentativeness and perceived ability to use logical reasoning outside of mafia, it strikes me as unlikely that your preferred tactic to build cases as town is to quote in full almost twenty posts from the player in question without further explanation

[Quilford]

1. Only when someone asked for them

What difference does that make? It was clear that they existed.

You are aware that you've just criticised another player for posting a 'naked' vote, right?

2. Listing posts does not make it very clear what your reasons are

If you cannot see what I would consider the self-evident scumminess in those posts, then I have no desire to attempt to explain it to you.

What reason would

any

town player have to not explain their case on who they perceive to be scum?

[Quilford]

Ah, but it's clear her reasons exist right Aegor?

I'm sure DGB is interested in why she's the most vote-worthy out of all the people you've considered scum.

[Quilford]

:)

[Quilford]

I'm not 100% on Aegor either. He could just be an ass.

[Quilford]

I do like UT votes.

grumble.

[Quilford]

hiplop would not have shown up in the activity overview with 0 posts, you goobers

[Quilford]

I disagree. I think that 250ish posts in, it's a reasonable assumption to make that everyone has posted.

[Quilford]

Sure.

[Quilford]

MOST LIKELY TOWN

(these people have all made obvious attempts to discern others' alignments, backed up with insightful analysis of posts)

farside22
Rob13
T-Bone

LEAN TOWN

(generally attempting to discern others' alignments, but with less precise analysis or interspersed with fluffy posts)

Banakai
kanyeknowsbest
Marquis
Metal Sonic

NULL

(I'm being led off-course by past experience with these people)

DGB
kuribo
The Bulge

MOST LIKELY SCUM

(

ISO these players

: their analysis of their scumreads is weak or non-existent)

Aegor
hiplop
INAUFTA (Cheery Dog)
Prof Fridays
Untrod Tripod

[Quilford]

UNVOTE: Aegor

[Quilford]

I want to think a bit more about the lynch today.

[Quilford]

(really not liking UT)

[Quilford]

Actually, meh. He is phoneposting.

[Quilford]

GRUMBLE

[Quilford]

People I want to lynch the most:

Aegor
DGB
UT

[Quilford]

VOTE: Aegor

[Quilford]

Well, at least DGB's probably town now. I think.

[Quilford]

UNVOTE: Aegor

[Quilford]

can we lynch someone ok? PLEASE I WANT A FLIP

[Quilford]

guess it would help if i could remember who i was voting

not a good sign

[Quilford]

VOTE: hiplop

Would prefer this to either of the people with four votes.

[Quilford]

I'd rather go for hiplop, who is claiming to be obvtown, over Bulge, who is at least putting up some semblance of an argument against Aronis' case

[Quilford]

I'd rather go for hiplop, who is claiming to be obvtown, over Bulge, who is at least putting up some semblance of an argument against Aronis' case

So you'd rather kill someone who is willing to lay down and die? Scum arent going to just give up.

The point is, Bulge's reaction is townier.

[Quilford]

Not by much admittedly.

[Quilford]

and so what shall be?

[Quilford]

oh.

NINJEDITED

[Quilford]

My win percentage goes down huge if I get lynched. I don't trust the town to pick right tomorrow, and I will guess aegor. If he's not scum I lose.

Yeahhh this is kind of awful. I would expect town to be across the mechanics by now.

[Quilford]

Constantly sticking my head out to get people lynched.

Also yeah this is kind of decidedly false.

Bulge voters, come to hiplop.

[Quilford]

damnit tbone got me. >:<

[Quilford]

hush you

where is zostarer

[Quilford]

three-pronged trouser god

[Quilford]

H P N G D U S

and you missed an R

[Quilford]

T B O N E

[Quilford]

F L R M

[Quilford]

yup

/claim hangman masterrr

[Quilford]

Well, we're waiting for zoraster

[Quilford]

damnit kuribo

[Quilford]

I SWEAR REVENGEEEEEEEEE

[Quilford]

kuribo, putting the cum in mafiascum since 2007

[Quilford]

taking the mafias out of mafiascum since 2007?

[Quilford]

nahhh

[Quilford]

Can I accuse the mod of making this game too damn hard?

Can I accuse you of mislynching and ignoring obvscum?

p sure bulge would have fled were he scum

[Quilford]

heheh i found my .txt townie list from this part of the last fortnight

Code: Select all

BBMolla				T
Benmage				T
Cogito Ergo Sum
DrippingGoofball
Ghostlin		 	 T
greygnarl		 	T
GuyInFreezer
JacobSavage
Kanyeknowsbest
Kid A				  T
kuribo
MattP				  T
Oversoul
Quilford			  T
T-Bone				 T
Venmar

[Quilford]

wonder if it's UT

[Quilford]

Although I was hilariously wrong about Tbonez, don't know

[Quilford]

There is a really obvious point in discussion, which is that people could point out things you've missed.

[Quilford]

For example, farside pointed out INAUFTA's meta read of T-Bone, and it's super dodgy, and I hadn't remembered it myself.

[Quilford]

Don't be a trickster DGB

[Quilford]

fuck it whatever

hopefully i get to pull a quilford

hopefully

I

do!

[Quilford]

Yep

[Quilford]

I'm down to two people but won't be surprised if it's neither

[Quilford]

Can't tell if kuribo is scum

[Quilford]

Eh T-Bones interactions w/ make it unlikely

[Quilford]

kuribo i hate your early game rage bud

[Quilford]

if you're town never again pls

[Quilford]

sigh idk

[Quilford]

Not me again kanye (:

[Quilford]

yays :D

[Quilford]

whee switched again

[Quilford]

im really conflicted guys. tbones hammer post leads me to believe that he wasnt sure he was going to flee, that his partner wasnt clear of suspicion d1.

Huh. Interesting.

Makes me want to change back. >__>

[Quilford]

kanye who are you thinking bud

[Quilford]

glerk no scum read intersection there

[Quilford]

then again like I said I was wrong about tbone

[Quilford]

well I'm hesitant for anyone to sheep me as I'm likely wrong

but I'm tossing up between UT and INAUFTA

[Quilford]

Well I'm ready to be massively wrong and have it be Rob or Bana or something

[Quilford]

you too :>

[Quilford]

if it's cheery or ut I'll be happy

[Quilford]

heheh

[Quilford]

probs me too

[Quilford]

I don't even know

[Quilford]

who scum is

[Quilford]

Holy shit Marquis and T-Bone, well done

[Quilford]

I 100% wrote Marquis off after his long post >__>