Through the Looking-Glass [Game Over]

[DeasVail]

I'll be here in a few hours.

[DeasVail]

Hey everyone! Pretty sad not to be in a neighborhood. I mean, hey, I'm kind of ugly, but I thought that we had moved on to inner beauty and other such heartwarming ideas. I guess I'll just have to stay lonely and stare at the looking glass with disgust. BUT I'M BEAUTIFUL ON THE INSIDE AND NO SHALLOW MOD IS GOING TO TELL ME OTHERWISE.

Man, I was starting to sweat during those moments.

I'm going to say "No" to this policy lynch as it is pretty dum.

Vote: Nachomamma8

Did you think the policy vote was serious?

Yeah, I'm agreeing with notsci and the whole "oblivious townie" bit after this last post.

This intrigues me. When I read the Cho post you're referring to, my first thought was, 'Would scum-Cho actually fake another oblivious townie thing after being accused of doing so?', leading to a lot of confusion over her alignment on my part, but certainly not a greater confidence in her being scum.

Konowa who I think might be town.

Why? He's my scum pick as of this post.

im watching pitch perfect

Solid use of time.

~~

Cho, you are super cool for your Konowa vote.

Nooo, back to Konowa!

I sort of skimmed at parts and may reread some parts again, but current impression of the game:

Town: Cho, Katsuki, notscience, SleepyKrew

Scum: Konowa

These are subject to change.

[DeasVail]

Vote: Konowa

[DeasVail]

DV why are you townreading me?

Mainly for pushing Katsuki about his claim request.

[DeasVail]

I am still requesting that when I play as Cho, you call me Cho, and you use female pronouns. I'm still using this public alt for a reason.

If you're specifically referring to out-of-account meta, Marquis is fine. But otherwise when you're talking to and about me here,

I'm Cho

.

You go gurl!

[DeasVail]

This intrigues me. When I read the Cho post you're referring to, my first thought was, 'Would scum-Cho actually fake another oblivious townie thing after being accused of doing so?', leading to a lot of confusion over her alignment on my part, but certainly not a greater confidence in her being scum.

I'm concerned about Marquis dropping "oblivious town tells" in the game, but last time I pushed someone for it, they ended up being town.

I don't really like your Konowa vote. Can you explain your Konowa/Cho reads?

Dropping oblivious town tells after being called scum for dropping oblivious towntells is a whole new level for scum to go to and while in theory it may be a good idea, I don't see scum thinking it a good idea and the responses to it this game help show that. I mean I consider it more likely that she's just messing with everyone as town.

As for Konowa.

I want you to imagine a man in a blue toga. I want you to imagine this man dancing some slow, serene dance, waving a blue flag. After the suggestion of a pretty likely non-serious policy lynch (on the first page), this man sways his hips a little more noticeably, waves his flag a little more vigorously and proclaims that he in his town-ness opposes the dumb policy lynch.

This man is Konowa and he might be scum. He might not be though, but there's something else in his posting too that I would prefer not to comment at this stage and I feel it's probably a stronger point than the blue toga dance, which while not that strong is better than anything I have on anyone else.

I am not scum. I am an incredibly odd individual who is perhaps even more odd as scum. Sorry.

[DeasVail]

Cho, on the other hand, is a dugong. Tales of her voluptuous upper body and sparkling tail have reached men across many seas, who in their disappointment and subsequent rage upon finding merely a dugong acquire the urge to kill. However, what they don't realise is that the dugong is perhaps even more beautiful than the creature they sought, and in this way so is Cho. In short, I feel she is town, but there's not much I can point to specifically that I haven't already pointed to.

[DeasVail]

The amount of town reads I'm garnering already is making me a little scared.

Why? If you're town don't you think people would see that?

[DeasVail]

I'm going to say "No" to this policy lynch as it is pretty dum.

Also I'm struggling to read this as a response to a policy lynch you knew wasn't serious.

[DeasVail]

I suppose what I'm asking is, why make the formal statement? Why not just ignore it since it wasn't actually a serious thing?

[DeasVail]

Catching up now.

[DeasVail]

I am really confused as to what is going on. Is Katsuki serious about Nacho being scum? If someone could just quickly tell me that would be amazing.

[DeasVail]

Kats put Nacho at L-1 with muffin off the wagon, meaning Katsuki essentially said "I am 1000% okay with the lynch happening right now". He's past the point of no return.

No, he's not.

You think townKatsuki would actually let your lynch happen on a fake guilty?
UNVOTE: btw

Why are you unvoting?

Because you should be given the chance to talk, and L-2 with muffin still out there felt uncomfortable.

Why didn't you unvote before he got here?

[DeasVail]

I am actually catching up now. Sorry.

[DeasVail]

DV, you're a really cool guy.

You're very kind.

VOTE: Nachomamma8 due to Kat's claim. If Nacho is town, we can lynch Kat tomorrow.

This is a terrible post.

RedCoyote became a townread for me from that post.

~~

All caught up! Reads and other delicious things coming soon!

[DeasVail]

Katsuki
SleepyKrew
Nachomamma8
notscience
Cho
Bins
RedCoyote

The above are all at least leaning town in my mind. I wouldn't be surprised if there were scum among this group of players, but I am not interested in lynching any of them for now. Froot Loop gets an honorable mention for almost making the cut, but something holds me back.

Muffin is entertaining and could be town, but I don't actually see anything town from him and I question Katsuki's seemingly confident townread there.
Empking's vote on Nacho is something I'm having trouble with. Part of me thinks that the timing is unlikely from scum, but the point raised by Nacho + Cho is a decent one.

The players I would be interested in lynching are:

Konowa
Brian Skies
TiphaineDeath

TiphaineDeath is probably less of a priority for me because he displays emotion and unless used manipulatively in order to avoid a lynch I tend to find it likely from town. However, he is still a scumread just because it feels over-the-top and faked, in addition to his attitude to the Nacho wagon.

Brian Skies is also someone that I haven't been able to really understand yet, but his posts feel like scum to me despite not having a real picture of what he would be thinking as scum.

That said, my catch-up has only strengthened my desire to lynch Konowa. And once again, this shall be explained blue-toga-man-style.

Because guess what? Those hips still be swayin', that blue flag of ultimate town-ness still be wavin'. Over the last two days, there have been townies clawing at each other around him, chewing on each other's flesh, faking daycop guilties! Konowa's response to this is to ever so softly repeat at 30-minute intervals, 'I don't like what's happening here', while continuing to sway those born-for-swaying hips and not letting a single townie forget just how town this blue toga guy is!

He thought Katsuki's daycop was fake, he makes a big deal out of passively complaining about town's direction in 679, but he doesn't actually do anything to change it. You see very little effort to either develop his Cho and TD reads (430 doesn't count because it's a ridiculous incrimination of Cho and is discouraging TD scumreads, who I think could be scum), or to convince others of his reads when he thinks everyone else is making poor choices. My impression is that Konowa is someone pretending to care about what happens but clearly not actually caring about what happens. So, I think he is scum. I would quite like it if we lynched him.

[DeasVail]

I think that's solid reasoning - if one of them (especially nacho) had turned out to be town, the other one would be in trouble. It's just Red's justification for voting now is a bit flimsy:

My read is in some ways making the assumption that Nacho is town. If Nacho is scum then I do still think RedCoyote's probably town, but I haven't thought it through properly. However, while I believe scum following Katsuki's daycop guilty on Nacho would pretend to be convinced of Nacho's guilt and not mention the need to lynch Katsuki until tomorrow, RedCoyote without shame states the need to lynch Katsuki with a Nacho townflip.

[DeasVail]

reading your posts makes me feel empty inside

I get the same feeling, but I liked her at first. It's strange.

[DeasVail]

I can't think of anything in particular.

[DeasVail]

I agree that SleepyKrew looks bad and I do have reservations there, but it's almost the fact that he looks bad that has me wanting to call him town. There are other things too though.

[DeasVail]

I'm up to date, but won't be able to review my reads tonight. Still unsure that SleepyKrew would be a good lynch, but I'll take another look at him later.

[DeasVail]

Thoughts on SleepyKrew:

-My first reason for townreading him was his persistent badgering of Katsuki about the format claim (103, 105, 119, 167). I try to think about why scum would do it. There's the obvious 'rolefishing' answer, but the way SleepyKrew goes about is too conspicuous, is even from scum's point of view likely to not yield any real results. This leaves me thinking that SKrew as scum probably wouldn't do it, just because it attracts attention and look bad. If scum were trying to rolefish here (which I think doesn't happen nearly as often as people like to claim but whatever), then I think they would ask the question once and leave it at that. I did consider the possibility that SKrew and Katsuki are scum together and that this was some avant-garde distancing technique. But with the probable net negative attention received from SKrew's 'rolefishing' and Katsuki's 'evasion' it's probably just a bad idea that's so not worth it.

-I get the impression that the whole Katsuki daycop guilty on Nacho thing is a pretty significant part of the reasons for SKrew's wagon. I have a bit of trouble relating to what town would think in SKrew's situation, because while SKrew was there throughout the whole thing, I entered the thread afterwards and was just really confused. However, this being said, I can actually understand the progression of SKrew's thoughts here. I think it would be natural to assume the guilty was a joke at first, to even continue to do so for a while just because Katsuki's posts sounded kind of dodgy and you're bound to have confirmation bias due to daycop=joke being the first impression. That said, I think that once it got to the stage where people were talking about hammering and Katsuki was not letting up, I think one would begin to wonder if it was actually real, just as I did when I entered the thread.

But the above point is all arguing for SKrew not necessarily being scum. He could still be scum that just wanted a Nacho/Katsuki Mcmislynch combo. I lean against this because of the way he handled everything being messy, but nonetheless in a way that felt town. His responses to Nacho (e.g. 768) feel like town that got carried away with the whole daycop thing and actually feels bad about it, but at the same time I don't think scum would approach it this way, because it just has a very obvious 'this looks bad' vibe to it, which I feel scum would make an effort to avoid.

Keep in mind though, that I have concerns about SleepyKrew. My townread on him is even less confident than my townreads usually are, but the above is what I'm thinking at least.

[DeasVail]

Now that I think about it, I'm actually really shaky on all my reads this game.

[DeasVail]

The title's don't actually have any significance. Anyone who played last game would know this. I think Kats doing that in the beginning was just more conversation starter, see if anyone would bite hard starter, etc. SK's "badgering" is just filler. You're falling into the whole "too scummy to be scum" fallacy there, DV.

SleepyKrew didn't play the last game, so he wouldn't know this I assume?

Also, I do worry that I am, but there are things that I believe scum would avoid out of fear of looking scummy, that aren't actually scummy when you think about it, and that's what I suspect is going on with SKrew here.

[DeasVail]

Hated scum in a FG game seems reasonable.

I read RC as town based on his play fwiw.

[DeasVail]

i usually say that in every game regardless of my alignment but this time i'm serious

this is my serious face



i'm town

You can only say this in so many games where it almost becomes a trust tell.

I don't think that's what muffin's going for dude. He's just messing with us.

PEdit: Oh yes of course. My bad.

[DeasVail]

SKrew I just want to know that you're town and it's all going to be ok.

[DeasVail]

There's so much doubt and I don't want there to be!

[DeasVail]

If by "ok" you mean I'll still win then ok.
I'd like your opinion of the format claim thing now that I cleared that up.

This post only makes me feel worse man.

And I don't think my opinion has changed much. I don't actually understand the whole format thing myself, and would have to go back to my role PM to understand how it relates to me and I'm not sure if I'm up to that right now because I kind of like the suspense!

[DeasVail]

Your title is either bolded, italicized, or underlined. It doesn't actually matter.

I caved.

Also, Salamence, I feel that the following post lacks any sort of attempt to look town that it would be quite ridiculous for scum to post it.

VOTE: Nachomamma8 due to Kat's claim. If Nacho is town, we can lynch Kat tomorrow.

PEdit: But what about if you flip scum and I'm just that stupid guy?

[DeasVail]

Ok.

[DeasVail]

Zero sense, SK.

Hmm? He's making a bit of sense.

[DeasVail]

Are you just trying to make me feel better about you?

[DeasVail]

If by "ok" you mean I'll still win then ok.

Why did you post this like this?

[DeasVail]

Oh no. I'm asking for you to reassure me. I want to think you're town so that I can scream at everyone to stop lynching you to no avail. This weird state of sort of thinking you're town but not being at all confident about it sucks.

[DeasVail]

DV, you are one of the last people I would try to appease, I don't know how you got that out of that, since I feel that we always read each other as scum.

I felt that it was an unnecessary comment that just reduces any pressure there was on me. I don't think it's necessarily scummy, but worth asking about.

You have a good point here though.

[DeasVail]

I will think on this.

[DeasVail]

Unvote

[DeasVail]

I think I might have the highest ratio of experience to skill on the site.

I think you're wrong.

-

i was not-so-subtly trying to indicate that making konowa a viable NK target is never a bad thing

i believe the claim. it also doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out who tweedledee is, either, but hush, hush, etc

I'm not ruling out them being scum together, and no one else should either, just because.

-

I'm at the stage where if I had the choice between hammering Bins and no lynching, I might actually choose the no lynch. As you can imagine, this probably means I'm not feeling too hot about the bins wagon! I'm also quite baffled by the votes there, but whatever.

Bins, if you're scum then you've done a great job fooling me, but for now I'm just going to assume you're as town as I think you are and if you're lynched, know that you shall be avenged.

On the other hand, I would choose a SleepyKrew lynch over a no lynch, but I have a feeling this is one of those instances where the townies are getting all cute and passionate arguing about two mislynch wagons while the scum are sitting there laughing on the sidelines. Am I going to let this happen? I bloody well hope not.

Let's do something absolutely unheard of and shake this game up. Let's put this cheeky scumfuck in his place and shock him with a day 1 lynch. Follow me, and..

Vote: zMuffinMan

Seriously though, he's not nearly as town as he thinks he is and I actually really like the idea of lynching him. I'm going to be honest. I don't actually expect this wagon to take off, but it would be kind of nice if it did? I also don't really have anything on him, but I'm feeling it!

Also, when it comes to SKrew vs. Bins I'm lynching SKrew obviously and I sort of want the Bins wagon to disappear. I actually wouldn't mind both wagons disappearing and having a new one filled with muffiny deliciousness but maybe that's asking too much, I don't know.

[DeasVail]

Some other things:

-If anyone's not happy with the current situation, don't just lie there and take it, do something about it. I know there's the impending deadline at all, but if Bins and SKrew are both town what's the use in lynching them? I believe people are active enough that we can actually get a lynch through if that's what's concerning people. It's possible I'm being anti-town, but I want to try something new this game and see where it takes me.

-If you think zMuffinMan is town, tell me why, but if you're going to argue that he's too hard to lynch before a certain day or whatever, the only real reason for that is because 'he's too hard to lynch'. Be brave and shave all the hair off the beast!

[DeasVail]

he's not nearly as town as he thinks he is

how town do i think i am

no idea

[DeasVail]

Let's put this cheeky scumfuck in his place and shock him with a day 1 lynch

nah

see, i can claim scum here and there's not a whole lot you can actually do to get me lynched

you are prob better off trying to guess who i'm scum with over trying to get me lynched

wanna guess?

I know.

I just didn't really understand the SK wagon and his reaction to it was townie.

Pretty sure I explained it myself at least once? Elaborate on what my reaction was and why it's town.


DV, why are you townreading Bins so hard and why do you think you can pull off a deadline muffin lynch just by saying "he's not as town as he thinks". Like, muffin's been pinging me too, but there's no way you're going to get a D1 muffin lynch (especially at deadline!) because of gut. And I'm not even sure if my gut is still pinging.

Well the muffin answer is easy because I've made it pretty clear that I have extremely low confidence in actually lynching him today.

As for Bins, my townread comes largely from her response to being wagoned. It is exactly how I often feel when I'm town about to get lynched.

[DeasVail]

I'm sorry guys. I've been in bed rest all day with a really high fever.

I'm town. I don't have anything to add because I haven't read up and I really apologize for that.

I really hope she doesn't flip out while she's sick

Nah, I'll accept it. I haven't done anything.

All I can really do is promise that content will go up Day 2.

These posts really speak to me.

[DeasVail]

Dear anyone that just thought

wow skrew's been really survivalistic

, no I fucking haven't. Pay attention.

SKrew the haters.

[DeasVail]

I'm town, I'll be better D2, I agree with the person that called the case on me bad, here's my claim
Those all seem pretty null generally?
But have you went and checked to see how she reacts to getting wagoned as both alignments? How you react to a wagon is a player-specific thing, so I don't know why "she's acting like I would as town" = "she's town". Maybe that's how she reacts as scum because people read it as town?

People don't read it as town though, that's the thing. People read 'scumhunting' as town, not what Bins is doing.

PEdit: Is this hang on a sec supposed to become a scumread on me? Because you can kind of just get straight to it if you want.

[DeasVail]

I don't know how to explain it, but I just really feel that Bins is town.

[DeasVail]

Because I'm pretty lazy and meta just tends to confuse me anyway.

[DeasVail]

How confident are you DV? Between 50% and 100% sure

I am pretending to be more confident than I actually am. That's all I can give you.

[DeasVail]

Unvote: zMuffinMan
Vote: Empking

[DeasVail]

Nacho...

[DeasVail]

Also, how the fuck is Nacho sooooo good at reading me? He knows im town, he knows when Im scum, just wtf dude?

NACHO WHO ARE YOU AND STAY OUT OF MY INBOx

Why did you make this post?

VOTE: RC

There's no light at the end of this tunnel.

If you'll want me to join you here, you'll need to do some convincing.

[DeasVail]

Brian, I've reviewed RC and I still think he's town.

PEdit: I'm unsure on Brian. I think it's possible I'd prefer to make a push elsewhere today, but he's not town enough that I'm going to complain about there being a wagon on him right now.

[DeasVail]

Testing the claim already assumes that RC is scum. I'm pretty sure it was just Brian being cheeky.

[DeasVail]

So there was no real reason for that post other than to make everyone think you're town?

PEdit: I meant his request to test RC's claim.

[DeasVail]

So there was no real reason for that post other than to make everyone think you're town?

Sala, please answer this question. It's important. I'm referring to 1629.

[DeasVail]

It's kind of creepy that DV is thinking similar to me.

That -never- happens.

Hey, we got off to a rough start, which was totally my fault, but maybe it doesn't have to be all bad!

Regarding Sala, that wasn't the answer I was hoping for and that post still feels off to me, but I'm still not scumreading him.

Best thing I can think of right now is still..

Vote: zMuffinMan

It's kind of annoying that people probably won't lynch him because he's scary, but I shall have hope!

[DeasVail]

Unvote
Vote: Bins

- We've less that two days left and I'd prefer this over Kon or SK.

By the way, this strengthens my bins townread.

[DeasVail]

(we're not lynching muffin today)

Is there a very good reason for this?

[DeasVail]

Nati, my muffin vote is mostly because with every other player I can think of a reason not to lynch them, but with muffin I can't. If you think there's a reason why muffin is town, or why he shouldn't be lynched, please tell me.

[DeasVail]

Ok, this might just end up being the most embarrassing moment I've had in a while, but I think Sala is town.

[DeasVail]

muffins was the most protown figure throughout our decision to lolwagon nacho can we not do our best to deplete this game of all the strong players first? (granted emp was a nice shot but still )

I thought what he did was not very hard for scum to do.

PEdit: Nati, you're scaring me a little!

[DeasVail]

My current thought is Katsuki-town, Muffin-scum, but I'm open to other ideas.

PEdit: I do not doubt that muffin can be charasmatic as scum.

[DeasVail]

PEdit: Nati, you're scaring me a little!

I've been in a mafia rut the last few months, but I'm trying to put effort in and this playerlist has enough intensity to keep me interested.

I'm glad, but what I said was mostly because I worry that you're scum trying to manipulate me, but I'm going to pretend you're not for now and hopefully it will work out.

[DeasVail]

The main thing stopping me from calling Katsuki scum is that there was a very real risk that his claim could have led to a Nacho lynch. If this had happened, I believe that Katsuki would have been held responsible and probably wouldn't have been able to escape a lynch the next day. Is it worth sacrificing yourself just to lynch Nacho? I don't think so.

[DeasVail]

Also note that Muffin's position was such that he wouldn't have been in any real trouble if Nacho was lynched.

[DeasVail]

You might be right, I don't know, but I do think that scum would be more likely to stop it earlier. If Katsuki had let Nacho be lynched, there was no way I was going to let him go.

[DeasVail]

I do worry that you're right about that. I keep coming back to the opinion that it was just a largely unnecessary move if from scum, but I'm not going to say you're wrong because I really just don't know.

[DeasVail]

You might be right, I don't know, but I do think that scum would be more likely to stop it earlier. If Katsuki had let Nacho be lynched, there was no way I was going to let him go.

Sadly, the way the cults of personality work out this game, you're fairly ignorable.

(I don't mean this in a mean way, but relationship dynamics means you, TD, and Froot Loop's opinions literally don't matter to the consensus)

Oh, I agree completely. Don't worry.

[DeasVail]

I am honestly sort of underwhelmed by that Brian quote. I think it's slightly scummy regardless of Empking's alignment, but Empking flipping scum doesn't make me all excited about lynching Brian just yet.

[DeasVail]

I've read through Brian. I feel weakly opposed to his wagon in that I won't be joining it any time soon but won't cry a great deal if he's lynched either. I think he could be scum, but there are a couple of things in his posts that I think could indicate town. These things are probably not strong enough to be worth mentioning though.

But as if no one wants to lynch Muffin? Let's end this ridiculous cycle of strong players are too hard to lynch early, therefore they aren't lynched early, therefore they're too hard to lynch early. I mean, I think I'm pretty obviously town at this point and Nati seems pretty cool and muffin's really not that town, so join us in our quest!

As you may have figured out by now, unless muffin manages to change my read of him, my posting will consist of regular cheerleading for the muffin wagon until he dies. If you really want to put up with the hideous site of me donning pom-poms and dancing a DV-choreographed routine for several days in a row (let's face it, I'm going to be around for a while unless people suddenly start suspecting me and I'm lynched which is not all that unlikely now that I think about it but whatever), then go ahead and not lynch him, but I think the answer as to what town should do now is pretty obvious!

[DeasVail]

have fun with that

Yeah yeah I know.

I'm trying so hard mate, but they just won't listen to me! What should I do?

[DeasVail]

Nooo.

[DeasVail]

Well the hope is that they'll become so enthused with the idea of voting out the most cunning manipulator that my inability to articulate reasons for thinking you scum won't matter.

I did think of claiming Even More Novice Cop (one who can only investigate night 1) with a guilty result on you, but something made me decide against it.

[DeasVail]

Only you though.

[DeasVail]

Oh that must have been it.

I think you win no matter what I try.

[DeasVail]

am i scum with you, katsuki

Please don't answer that it was rhetorical and only meant for DV to answer becUse he's super good at finding scum and I trust his opinion and ability to read the game

Hey D v and I scum with Katsuki

Please tell me so I know whether of not to distance here

Why thank you. I wouldn't describe myself as super good at finding scum in the slightest but the flattery is nice even if it does little to change my opinion of your alignment.

And dude, you're scum with me. That's the whole reason behind everything we're doing here!

UNVOTE: Salamence20; VOTE: zMuffinMan

DV sold me. Sal is like an abusive spouse... I just keep going back to him. Desp is probably bussing!

lol

DV sold you on what, exactly?

I also wonder what it was actually.

muffin should not be up for consideration before D5.

Is this supposed to be serious?

[DeasVail]

[DeasVail]

Hey guys and girls!

I have returned to tell you why I'm still voting for muffin and why you should be too!

The first reason, and why I started pushing him in the first place, is that there is actually no good reason to townread him that I'm aware of. Sure, he has a reputation, he's made over twice the number of posts that I have, he has some semblance of a personality showing through his posting. However, has he done anything that would be unlikely from scum? I don't think so. Some may cite the playing along with Katsuki as town-motivated, but I would disagree. Knowing that Katsuki was reaction-testing, it wouldn't be a huge leap for scum to play the role of town supporting the reaction test. As I've mentioned previously, Muffin wouldn't have suffered the fall-out from a Nacho lynch that Katsuki would have.

What I've said so far is only explaining why I would disagree with a muffin townread. Now, onto why I think he's scum, apart from having no reason to think he's town.

In his various reactions to my suspicion of him, one can almost sense a palpable frustration. I'm giving him nothing to go off, nothing he can refute, yet he's still being voted for. The best he can do is insult my abilities as town (where this comes from I am not sure) and ridicule my lack of clear reasons to suspect him. The problem here though, is that if he's town he's either being apathetic or intentionally withdrawn, and in either of these cases he would expect that these behaviours could potentially cause him to be misread.

However, instead of this he focuses on how bad I am, and not only that, but goes on to state that I should not make it anywhere near LYLO, despite townreading me on Day 1. Am I scum because of how I'm going about my read of him? I can't understand why he as town would think that. I believe the way that I've approached suspecting Muffin has been totally different from what I've done as scum in the past, especially on a reputable player, and Muffin has seen my scumgame and actually picked up on what was scummy about me quite well imo. I acknowledge that this doesn't mean I can't be scum trying to shake things up, but to go from a townread on me Day 1 (where my play was actually much more reflective of my scumgame) to a scumread here feels incredibly unnatural and forced.

So, in summary, I believe that Muffin is to some extent apathetic scum. This I feel is more likely than apathetic town, because apathetic town would be more understanding of the suspicion against them. Muffin on the other hand, is really aggressive about it but doesn't actually do anything.

Oh, can we lynch the muffin man,
The muffin man, the muffin man,
Oh, can we lynch the muffin man,
That feasts on all our pain?

Oh, yes let's lynch the muffin man,
The muffin man, the muffin man,
Oh, yes let's lynch the muffin man,
And end his bloody reign.

...I'm really sorry.

[DeasVail]

Can you quote this?

259, 622.

Muffin on the other hand, is really aggressive about it but doesn't actually do anything.

should do a death pact

katsuki can be responsible for enforcing it

if youre so sure im scum, then bet your life on it. you die tomorrow.

you can ignore this in the event im scum

otherwise, with katsuki (and everyone else alive) as the witness(es), you die the day after me

Well I'm not at all sure you're scum, but hey, I'll agree to it. If people want to lynch me if you flip town they can go for it. I don't think it would happen, but hey, if it gets you lynched, I won't complain.

PEdit: Cho, I am not against a Brian Skies wagon as much as for a muffin one. I'm still more hesitant about calling Brian scum than muffin, but I wouldn't mind a great deal if Brian was lynched today.

[DeasVail]

Here's the thing: muffin does not cowtow like this as town. He simply doesn't. He's being deliberately manipulative and not even subtle about it.

But all you psychos are getting distracted by the most blatant gambitter and posts from the beginning of the game. Jesus, pay attention.

I approve of this post.

DeasVail

, I really enjoyed this post. It was well-thought out and made sense to me, and I do think you're town (unless it turns out later on that the flipped town were generally insane and the flipped scum were the reasonable one).

However, I still like the idea of lynching Brian Skies today. My reasoning doesn't lie with that earlygame Empking commentary. It's not even related to Empking at all, whether that's for the better or for the worse. I think Brian Skies is scum just because of a mixture of his play in the late portion of Day 1, things that had to do with the SleepyKrew wagon, and gut reading.

Get your head out of your ass and don't let muffin go today.

If he doesn't die today, one of me and DV will die, and you all

will

forget him. Don't tell me you won't--I know how these things work.

We lynch muffin today. Brian Skies will still be there and the majority of you oafs will mislynch him tomorrow, probably.

But we're going to justice lynch first.

YES JUSTICE LYNCH!

You guy need to learn that Canadians make the best scumhunters.

You're right! DV is Canadian!

<3

Regardless of zMuffinMan's alignment, I think Bins is scum. A scum flip from zMuffinMan would strengthen those chances.

unvote;
Vote: Cho

Backwards thinking, yo.

And DV is Aussie?

I'm whatever I need to be to get muffin lynched.



I found a picture of a fox eating a muffin! I know it's the wrong colour, but I feel that it's destiny.

[DeasVail]

We're so close!

[DeasVail]

btw that votecount is inaccurate since Td is voting me, so im l-1

vote: zmuffinman

Thank you.

[DeasVail]

I will be able to post better tonight.

[DeasVail]

It's kind of hilarious that people are wanting to lynch me, but hey, I can't blame you unless you're scum of course.

What I will say is this:

If you are voting for me and you are town, then you should reverse your read and forget about calling me scum. Do it. Right now. I really don't want my wagon to progress any further and if I can do anything about it now, then I sure am going to. I have information about the game, and I think I'll be able to make a pretty good case for myself being town if you give me until the day before LYLO. If this is not good enough and people still want to lynch me, I can reveal what information I have now, but that would be sub-optimal.

[DeasVail]

LOLOLOL

THIS VIG IS GOLD

VOTE: DV

Not interested.

He may be wrong, but hes not scum.

Why am I not scum?

No, it isn't and my comment was not really only this game.

I'll sheep you in a bit. DV?

Why would you vote for me?

--

At the moment I don't really have any idea where my reads are at. I will try to work on this, but I wouldn't be entirely joking if I were to suggest that the vig outs and just tells us all where to go, because.. come on.

[DeasVail]

Brian, if RC is such a good vig shot, why not just lynch him?

[DeasVail]

I have absolutely no idea who I want to lynch. It's ridiculous.

[DeasVail]

What do brian voters think of this?

VOTE: brian would still like a notsci or a bins wagon, but post 1664 is godawful and given what bins has already done and the opening push today pretty firmly sets up a bins/brian dichotomy for me.

[DeasVail]

Ok, I'm going to have another look later. At the moment there's something about everyone that makes me uncomfortable lynching them.

[DeasVail]

Stop cherry picking shit that should indicate a town me.

Oh is this directed at me?

If so, why?

[DeasVail]

Also someone please put Vail out of his misery already

If you could have me killed right now, would you?

[DeasVail]

Well in that case, you can be the next one to die.

Vote: Katsuki

[DeasVail]

Am I actually going to be lynched here if I don't give out more of the goods?

[DeasVail]

Nati, would you consider voting for me? Y/N

[DeasVail]

Ok, well I may vote for Brian, but I want to hear back from him before doing so, and also what other people think of TD's vote.

[DeasVail]

Would really like to see a post from Brian Skies.

[DeasVail]

Ok

Vote: Brian Skies

This doesn't feel completely right to me though.

[DeasVail]

oh, and it;s L-1

[DeasVail]

Talk me through what you're thinking.

[DeasVail]

Talk me through what you're thinking.

Well I feel like kinship with you and lynching that would feel terribad emotionally.

But I also feel bad about betraying Desperado because he's a pretty cool guy.

As to the wagons themselves, I guess both have merit. But muffin was still acting weird so I don't count that against anyone.

Whichever choice you make, it's ok. All I ask is that if I am going to be lynched, I'm given time to pass on the information I have before I die.

[DeasVail]

DV quit sounding like scum (2131 "doesn't feel right to me" a.k.a. transparent lack of responsibility or acknowledgement that you still have time to push for something else if you truly thought this was a bad wagon in the same vein of what you did to Muffin a la 1365; 2138 "I'm given time to pass on the information" a.k.a. I'm setting up a softclaim so don't lynch me )

1. You use Muffin as an example but that didn't achieve anything.
2. Having myself as the wagon limits my freedom in choosing the day's lynch.
3. The softclaim stuff is all true and it's important that I'm not quicklynched so of course I'm going to say something.

[DeasVail]

I killed Empking and TiphaineDeath. I didn't kill anyone last night.

We should probably massclaim.

[DeasVail]

How about you finish up?

Finish up what?

If you still think I'm scum after this then I don't really know what's going on.

[DeasVail]

I will not be claiming any further for now.

And if there is a CC then I will claim further, but I don't think there will be one.

[DeasVail]

Ok, I'm probably just going to lay out all my thoughts now.

First, to notscience who asked why I did not kill RC, it is because I couldn't. I probably would have if I could, but sadly my reign of getting lucky and looking like some hotshot scumhunter when I'm so not is over.

I like the theory that I would kill two of my scumbuddies in an attempt to look town instead of just demolishing townies.

Katsuki, when you say you can only protect vanillas, what exactly do you mean by that?

More to come.

[DeasVail]

Also are you a full vig or a partial vig? This is an important question.

Can you say why it's important before I answer?

Also, what do you mean by 'vanilla'?

[DeasVail]

Also, I am evaluating everything and Katsuki/Desp is my current scumteam idea, but I still have thinking to do.

[DeasVail]

I am just going to dismiss RedCoyote and notscience as lynch options.

Natirasha is someone I consider quite town. Her activity tends to increase at townish times instead of scummy times, if that makes any sense. For example, she was active while we thought muffin was scum, which is something I'd expect from town. On the other hand her investment seemed to wane the day after, and I also found her indecisiveness genuine. Neither Brian Skies nor I were scum, so there wasn't really any need to. I know that my reasoning here is probably flawed and simple, so I'm open to better arguments, but my guess is that Nati is town.

Salamence is interesting to me. I've always found him fairly town and the mafia traitor thing is totally weird from scum. Maybe that's why he did it, but I found it just the right amount of crazy for town. (This is not meant to offend. I love crazy!) However, I'm really not sure about how likely his role is? I'm not really up to date on what's done in theme games, so if people could be more open about there reasons for voting him that would be pretty great.

Desperado has generally been underwhelming and the most interesting thing to me is that throughout Days 2 and 3 I was interested in how likely the scum would be to pick me as the vig. It seemed to me that Desperado would be quite obviously the vig to scum. Both of the kills came from his list of scumreads that he confirmed on Day 3. He was quiet during the days and didn't seem incredibly invested in getting lynches. Read his posts and I think you'll see what I mean. However, that makes me wonder why he wasn't killed and why Cho was?

Katsuki is partly role related because I suspect it makes more sense as a scum role than as a town role, and also because I've been feeling for a while that this is scum-Katsuki, but I can't put my finger on why exactly.

[DeasVail]

Also, Katsuki's really strong desire to lynch me depsite my claim that I could potentially prove myself to be town is quite odd and makes me think he's scum faking confidence.

[DeasVail]

*was quite odd

I'm referring to events of the previous day.

[DeasVail]

Also are you a full vig or a partial vig? This is an important question.

Can you say why it's important before I answer?

Also, what do you mean by 'vanilla'?

It was evidently very important to you.

[DeasVail]

Vote: Katsuki

A few reasons, but if his role is what I think it is, I don't understand why it's a town role.

[DeasVail]

Also, I've decided that I'm no longer going to be using my role, so I will describe it in full.

I am The Jabberwock, Town Monster.

I am a compulsory vanilla vig. This means that I have to target someone every night, but my kill only goes through if the target is a vanilla townie or mafia goon. I love my role and it's very interesting. If I hadn't gotten lucky and killed what were probably the only 2 mafia goons in the game on the first two nights, I was planning to use it to catch out fakeclaims and whatnot. If I targeted a mafia PR, they didn't die and then claimed vanilla townie, we could all say bye to that scummy scum. Now, however, I believe there are 2 scum left, but I don't think there are any mafia goons left, so my kill only works if the target is town. This is why I can't kill RC, and Night 3 I just targeted notscience because he was softing PR a lot and I was pretty confident he wasn't VT.

This brings to me Katsuki. I consider my role a cool one that has a couple of applications this game. Katsuki's on the other hand, doesn't do a great deal at all for town. The only application is if scum just happens to target a VT and he does too, which is kind of boring imo. Compared to my vanilla role I just don't understand why it's included in the set-up. My thought was that it made much more sense as a scum role to protect against my kills, but I'm not sure how much sense that makes either because TD died, so I'm beginning to believe he has some other vanilla role and that vanilla doc is a fakeclaim? I'm going around in circles here hmm. I need to think. I just can't get past how boring Katsuki's claimed vanilla role is compared to mine.

[DeasVail]

dear fucking god your townplay is terrible

You could at least refute me.

[DeasVail]

Unvote

[DeasVail]

I don't know what to do. I really don't. I'm going to try and think over the next few days. My heart tells me Desperado but I don't know.

[DeasVail]

Someone tell me why Desp is town.

And also, Desp will probably only die if he's a VT if I shoot him. If he's scum he'll probably live.

[DeasVail]

Someone tell me why Desp is town.

Did you even read 2303?

That doesn't tell me why you're town. And it doesn't even refute my point properly as killing you wouldn't stop you from killing me.

[DeasVail]

RC forgetting his role is a towntell, if anything.

[DeasVail]

1) Do tell me how likely it is we have a 2 scum and 1 town neighborhood. In fact, if you can find a prior game where that has actually happened I will not bring this up again.

2) RC forgetting his role isn't a

towntell

if anything, it looks like scum forgetting what they fakeclaimed.

notscience you should have more faith in me.

Trust me when I say that RC forgetting his role is probably a towntell.

[DeasVail]

Also, 2 scum 1 town neighbourhoods have happened before (I forget where though), and I would be very uncomfortable clearing Desp based on the assumption that there is only one scum.

[DeasVail]

Katsuki, what is your read of RC?

[DeasVail]

Why? Predictability is no good imo.

[DeasVail]

To be honest, the neighbourhood is the only thing stopping me from voting for Desp right now and it makes me feel all horrible using that as a reason not to vote for him.

[DeasVail]

Ok, I've made a decision.

Vote: Katsuki

[DeasVail]

I am probably supportive of both Katsuki and Desp wagons.

[DeasVail]

The idea of shooting someone who'll only die if they're town is kind of depressing though.

And I don't really want to say why I said that.

[DeasVail]

Did you ever answer whether there's anything driving your scumread beyond me not dying last night?

With you it's mostly that you're the only person left in the game that I don't have a good reason to townread.

[DeasVail]

DV, why didnt you shoot?

How do you know I didn't?

[DeasVail]

I'm slightly annoyed that I was completely ignored when it came to RC, and I still think it's Katsuki and Desp. I'll have to go over this properly first of course, but that's where my head is at.

[DeasVail]

I will post more tonight. Sorry

I am not scum though because what kind of scum kills two scumbuddies?

[DeasVail]

I'm pretty sure there's 2 scum left, and to my two fellow townies I say this. I am going to make a decision on who I think should be lynched tonight. I will wait approximately 24 hours (this could easily be less) for any reactions to my decision and consider these before I vote, most likely around this time tomorrow. If I end up voting for town, then it is my fault and I am very sorry. I also ask that you consider what I have to say before making any decisions of your own, but I respect any decisions either of you do make.

For now though, while I obviously have an idea of who I think the scum are, I am not decided at all. I'm going to go through ISOs and dump pretty much all my relevant thoughts here.

--

Salamence 20

I believe Katsuki's argument that scum would have killed Sala if he was town to be flawed. By doing so they take the risk that he is in fact the variant where town only loses a day if the role is lynched, which would remove a very viable mislynch with no benefit.

My main reasons for thinking him town right now are:

-The fakeclaim of mafia traitor: It's the type of thing I could see town going for, but the benefit to scum is very unclear unless in a desperate situation (he wasn't). It's possible that Sala is completely fooling me here, but this particular action I see as much more likely from town than scum. I also am considering RC's townread here. He scumread Sala initially after the claim but came to townread him. Considering their shared access to a neighbourhood, I am respecting this read more than your average one too.

-His question to me today. He asked why I didn't shoot. This indicates a misunderstanding of my role and the way it's done does make me doubt that it's something faked by scum. Scum would undoubtedly be quite aware of what my role can and can't do. And the fact is that it's most likely that there were only 2 mafia goons and I've killed them both, so I now most likely only have the ability to kill townies. Woo! I'm essentially scum. However, I think this reveals Sala to be town.

--

Natirasha

Natirasha makes me incredibly paranoid, but there are reasons why I believe her to be town.

I believe the different points of the game where she has devoted most effort match up with town motivation more than scum motivation. The point in the game where she probably seemed most invested was when we were suspecting muffin. It makes a lot of sense for town to up the effort here. When you have a scumread that you feel good about it's suddenly so much easier to keep up to date with the thread and post all about how you think this scummy scum is scum. However, there is less incentive for scum investment here. If I was scum and knew muffin was town, I would not have expected the muffin lynch to go through at all. The apparent detachment from the game the next day is also something I'd expect from town.

There are other things that make me think town, but nothing that on its own is significant enough imo to mention.

--

Katsuki

Katsuki confuses me the most. I initially thought he was town, largely because of the high risk of his fake result on Nacho, but over the days he has become increasingly concerning to me, to the point where I am quite willing to consider that he would behave as he did as scum. I have decided that this is not entirely implausible based on my admittedly limited experience of Katsuki's play. My impression has been that he tends to get more into things as scum, while as town appears more apathetic, but this could easily just be me making things up because they sound pretty in my head.

I can't really understand the stances he's taking and I don't understand how his role fits into the town (Kats + Desp's arguments against me have been very unsatisfying). As much as I feel like a dick saying it, I am the only one that has actually been responsible for scum death this game, yet he takes every opportunity to tell me how scummy I am even if I am town, and how I'm a terrible player. I worry that this is a personality clash and that I am biased due to this. Is he scum trying, quite successfully, to reduce my confidence? I don't know.

He generally bothers me and I've been looking through his ISO for a while now to try and explain it, but every time I try it ends up sounding stupid and not what I'm trying to get at.

--

Desperado

As far as I could tell, notscience's townread was mostly based on the assumption that a neighbourhood would not contain more than one scum. That is an assumption I'm unwilling to make and I've decided to ignore it.

--

I've realised there's no point in continuing to try and translate my thoughts into words. I doubt there will be anything said over the next 24 hours that will change my mind. Whoever I vote will most likely be the day's lynch (if they're quicklynched, they're quicklynched, and if they're not quicklynched, they're assumed to be scum). I may as well take the plunge and just get it over with.

Currently I am agonizing over whether to vote for Katsuki or Desperado. It might not matter. The scumteam could be Nat/Sala or Kats/Desp. But maybe it does matter. I am probably doing a stupid thing and I go through phases where I suspect I've got this all wrong, but I'm feeling absurdly reckless tonight.

Vote: Desperado

I'm sorry if I've screwed this up for you all.

[DeasVail]

Thanks for the game FakeGod. It was a lot of fun! And well done to Katsuki and the rest of the scumteam.

[DeasVail]

Night 1 I could think of a good reason not to shoot everyone except Empking, who I was starting to scumread towards the end of Day 1 anyway. He just felt detached from the game in a way I thought was more than usual even for him, but I wasn't sure about this and my primary reason for shooting there was lack of any reason to think him town.

I was hesitant to shoot TD night 1 because of his display of emotion Day 1, but after his very mellow Day 2 posts and lack of conviction in following up earlier reads which he had seemed so passionate about without much identifiable reason, I thought he was the best shot.

After shooting two mafia goons, I thought there weren't likely to be anymore (I did think it was 4 scum though) and so my aim was to shoot someone who probably wasn't a VT (the idea of going for someone random and them only dying if town was incredibly depressing), and then if they didn't die and later claimed VT, I could say they were fairly likely scum. Notscience was softclaiming and so I thought targeting him would be an ok idea.

I shot you the next two times on the offchance that you were somehow a goon but knowing you probably wouldn't die, but I didn't want to shoot a VT claim because they would probably only die if they were town. I was expecting to die by that stage so even if I did target someone like Desp and he didn't die, it would've been for nothing. I thought it was high risk, negligible reward.

That's pretty much it!

[DeasVail]

I'm curious what DV thought of when he saw Kat's claim.

When I first saw it I thought it was town, but then I came to think what I posted in thread about it not making much sense to me as a town role. Whether this belief was invalid or not, I wouldn't know. I actually believed that if Katsuki was scum, the scumteam must have had a vanilla role that Katsuki used as inspiration for the claim. I'm amazed that there wasn't!

Also, I really appreciate the compliments, but I did make my own fair share of mistakes this game, the biggest of which being the muffin mislynch.