Advance Wars UPick!--Game Over..?

[Cheetory6]

Sup, catching up. Have skimmed D1 [I promise a better readthrough of things once I've skimmed everything and have more time tomorrow]. General thoughts are that SSK gave me bad feels in a few posts early on and Ceph felt like town to me, but that's super subject to change as I read more.

Trying to do a more in-depth readthrough of D2 just so I'm up to date. If people want me to look at specific players/posts please let me know.

[Cheetory6]

Lol as I read more of D2 I realize that I'm literally echoing the popular sentiment.
Zzzzz.

[Cheetory6]

ISO on SMP:

His stance on Varsoon on D1 feels unrealistic in #302. Saying that his gut leads him to think one of Varsoon, Ceph and ffery is probably scum is hella safe. Basically waffles on notscience here as well.
#306 reads as feeling the need to explain himself too much because he's worried about bandwagoning on Varsoon.

My god Varsoon, ATE and super large fonts aren't going to help town at all. All you're doing is cluttering the thread and tunneling Orc, who has no chance of getting lynched today.

Doesn't feel like he's actually scumreading Varsoon with this kind of phrasing.

VOTE: SMP
Why aren't you voting someone yet? Or really pushing any kind of scumread?

When grapes finally shows up.

THE TIME IS NOW.

[Cheetory6]

SSK

Spoiler:

#182 softpushes Varsoon. Votes Notscience DO NOT LIKE. Avoids the main reason people are scumreading him.
#189 feels like he's defending Varsoon's slip for townpoints down the road. Gross considered the softpush from before.
Notscience was an easy vote/suspect to be pushing.
#229 seems semi-legit tonewise.

My vote on notsci was telling him to actually play.

So.. not actually scumreading him?
Jesus, postgap between #389 and #1061 and all you have to say is a notscience suspicion? Gross.

You don't just get to opt out of reading a player because you don't like to publically state it.

R u jokin m8? Almost want to give townpoints because I think scum would be more careful about calling stuff like this scummy while also doing it.

flubber, orci, smp, and ceph

Not NS? Why?

I like that he's not townreading Ceph assuming he is actually universally townread as STD is implying in #1199.

Conclusion: More null than I was expecting when I started my readback. Wary, but his play has enough moments that go back and forth between scummy and townie that I don't get a strong feeling one or another.

[Cheetory6]

Lynx:

VOTE: Vote: Ms. Marangal

They'll come to their senses.

Weht? Why did you vote for her?

[Cheetory6]

Was gonna spoiler these but fuck it. HAVE TEXT.

cabd

All of the old game scumQT hunting feels like he's trying to get townpoints for something that looks useful, but really isn't. Comes across as slightly scummy.
He's making himself very useful via flavour. Almost feels like he's giving himself an excuse to avoid actual scumhunting.
#282 cabd hasn't voted mara or varsoon in this post. Gross. I also don't like basing townreads off of scumreads but that's more personal preference than something scummy.
#345 feels like additional overexplaining of a scumread on Varsoon, but at least this makes sense in the context of him being all about flavour. Not sure he would want to discredit himself by throwing that much suspicion on Varsoon based specifically on flavour knowing that he would be wrong. Hm.
#348 I take it back. He gives a potential angle to explain why Varsoon's flavour might be legit. Could be covering his bases

These 7 names are scary as fuck if I'm drawing scum against it. Hell, even if one of the above is wrong, it's still fucking scary.

If these players are so scary, are you sure you should be solidly townreading them?

#445 kind of explains lack of vote, but I don't like that you're all like "I DON'T WANT THIS DAY TO END BEFORE I HAVE READS" while not actually using your vote. It's like your best tool for putting pressure on people. Feels super safe to me.

If Cabd is ordinarily a setup based player that makes me feel slightly better about him. But

a question to anyone who's played with him before

: does Cabd usually scumhunt on top of setuphunting in ordinary games? Do you think his passive play scumhunting-wise is unusual?

#733 feels legitimately angry.
#806 o.o jesus. I need to read mara and orci to understand this context.
Leaning scum pending other readthroughs, his catchup posts and other people answering bolded question above.

[Cheetory6]

mara

Oh goodness, she ignores the Varsoon issue entirely.
That's.. unexpected?
Wanna say scum would at least comment on it to cover bases, but it's odd in any way shape or form.
Kind of had the same reaction to cabd in my catch-up, so nothing odd about her pushing him IMO.

Orci just scum-told, he's getting lynched

If Mara believes that he scum-told, I can understand scumreading him, but the confidence seems exaggerated. Can understand this if this is a scumread she's personally been pushing for a long time though, but I still get wary whenever anyone gets this confident over only a single scumtell.

#964 has more reasoning, but it comes a little late. Eh.

I feel like Mara is shit disturby in a way that wouldn't benefit scum, though perhaps that's the reaction that she's hoping for? Heh. I can understand why she's the main wagon atm, but I don't agree with it. Reading Orci now to see if there's more context that I'm missing.

Slightly leaning town based on tone of her posts, but she seems really hard to read in general. I would personally like to see her be more open with her reads, even if it isn't in her playstyle to do so.

[Cheetory6]

Ah, makes more sense now.
And by makes more sense I mean jesus dude weakass reasoning for vote for someone/pretty opportunistic.
If that's your motivation, why didn't you vote for Varsoon on D1?

[Cheetory6]

Someone tell me who orci was summarizing the game for? What post did someone ask for a summary in? Having trouble finding it and want to understand the Mara/Orci thing better.

[Cheetory6]

Oh derp. I assumed it would be a replacement.
I'm literally blind. Thanks lol.

[Cheetory6]

WELP. HI GUYS. MY NAME IS CHEETORY6. I'M APPARENTLY A FUCKING FOOL.

[Cheetory6]

orcinus

I don't like that he gets all preachy about wagons being neat and then he jumps ship from the Varsoon wagon onto BPC for what feels like semi-opportunistic reasoning. Strikes me as scum trying to spread votes/trying to look like they're townhunting because they don't want to seem like they're just sitting on an inevitable mislynch all of D1. I wish I hadn't read Mara first, because I feel like I might be letting that influence my read here.

#165. Lolwut. Okay with voting NS at any point, but BPC doing it is scummy? What has orcinus even really contributed to the Varsoon discussion at this point that makes it okay for him to be chiding BPC for not commenting on it? I may need to read BPC to understand this better, but fuck if this doesn't feel off to me.
#197 tells ssk to move off notsci and back onto Varsoon while he's voting for BPC. Lol.

I personally don't read much into the scum-tell Mara's seeing. Maybe it's statistically a scum-tell, but I could see either alignment doing what he did.
Null on him wanting to out neighbors. Either being protown or trying to look protown. Leaning to the latter because I'm biased at this point.

Id love to help but unfortunately I don't like discussing my Cabd read in front of Cabd

Please explain this.
Interactions orci has with cabd are weird. I don't like them.

#607 feels like a fucking stretch in a few places. I get this feeling from orcinus's posts that he cares about how people are thinking about him in a self-centered way.
#649 but no varsoon vote. Lol.

so are you scumreading me or not

More self-centered posting.

#948 is paranoid. Have a single townpoint among a sea of suspicion I've gathered during this read q.q

Gut says SMP push is bussing if orci is scum.

I think the biggest selling point for me this entire game is how irrational mara is

This is a shit reason to scumread someone.

This is my MO as town

Self-meta q.q stahp.

I don't mind a meta case on Mara, but it feels like he's trying too hard to make his scumread on Mara seem legitimate/trying to discredit Mara's scumread on him. That's hella WIFOMy though and just a feeling I have.

@orcinus

, were you scumreading SSK when you voted him?

VOTE: orcinus

[Cheetory6]

How are people reading STD right now?

[Cheetory6]

Sorry yeah, I can see why it looks scummy for me to be asking how people are reading you because I could potentially just sheep the popular opinion. I'm just trying to get a priority worked out for who I want to read over and figured people's scumreads should be first.

someone replacing in asking for a summary is different from someone who was playing from the beginning being like 'i'm lazy, summary plz

I agree. That's why I was surprised when I realized it was Lynx because I thought he'd been in the game from the start?

Also don't vote orc.

Why?

[Cheetory6]

@STD

,
Certainly possible I'll read someone scummier than him, but nobody I've read thus far has stood out as likely scum in the same way.
Can I get some reasoning on him being town?

[Cheetory6]

Never played with orci before. Approximately my fourth game on this site. Confbias on thinking Mara is more likely to be town could be influencing some of my thoughts on his reactions to her, but I think his external interactions are more damning. Him asking someone whether they're scumreading feels self-centered motivated in a way that I don't see town playing. Extrapolating on that point, his scumhunting on D1 strikes me as an expansion of that, trying to seem a certain way to everyone else, rather than actually trying to legitimately scumhunt.

[Cheetory6]

Him asking someone whether they're scumreading

*him

feels

fixd.

[Cheetory6]

Cheetory are you scum reading me??????!!!

Yea.
Sup.

I could try to go into more detail if I got more time, but his conversations and his reads seem organic to me.

I'd like examples when you get the chance.
I'll be done your ISO later. Have class in the meantime.

P-Edit: Meta defenses obviously don't mean much to me. I'd need examples to understand. Still think his mindset on D1 was self-centered.

[Cheetory6]

Literally on my way out the door q.q

[Cheetory6]

But are you honestly saying that after writing a case on me you have nothing to ask?

I'm prioritizing catching up before scumhunting hard at this point. You're my best lead, hence my vote. Would rather read other people and get a full picture rather than spend all my time focusing on one person atm.

I think I let myself skim a lot more of your meta-focused arguments and focused more on other stuff. The stuff you're saying there makes sense if it's true and I noticed you were saying your case was partially based on meta early on during D2 so that makes me at least feel a little better about your Mara case. I do need to read those games to be sure though, but catch-up requires precedence which I'm sure you can respect. I also didn't know that she'd softclaimed tracker. Didn't catch that on my readthrough of her ISO.

#1731 is also a thing. Will be looking elsewhere as I have enough time to read over people.

if i had a dime for each time people ragged on me for jumping votes around too much

Not so much jumping votes around too much, I just saw no reason not to lynch Varsoon and you jumping around while chiding other players for jumping around felt weird.

ssk why are you even bothering notsci is vigbait/policy lynch. tell me about varsoon walking into a neighborhood and calling ppl "assholes"

You're going to tell me that's not you telling him that voting Varsoon is clearly better? It really looks that way to me. If not you phrased that really weirdly. I understand why specifically you might have gone after him for voting NS now, but the entire situation as a whole doesn't sit well with me.

interesting how many times you say this but that you never try to counteract your bias

Didn't say this that many times. I feel like you asking someone for their read on you is pretty scummy external to how I was reading Mara on a single passby of both your ISOs. Pretty confident I wasn't letting my bias get in the way with that specifically. I also made it clear when I felt bias was influencing my read on specific things. If it makes you feel better, I no longer feel biased in thinking you're more likely to be scum than not at this point or by the time I'd finished ISOing you?

you say this like it's bad but i'm not too sure why

How is it not a bad thing? Town are interested in finding scum. Looking like you're town is cool when you're town, but it's literally imperative when you're scum. I associate worrying about how you're seen by others [especially when you're not being wagoned] with a scum mindset.

it was like 2 days into the game i didn't want to end day yet?

Read the post I mentioned. That is not what you were saying there.

Also, I do honestly think that someone being "irrational" is a bad reason to scumread them as I think that's more of a nulltell.
Should have justified better. I also think your case is better than just her being 'irrational' now that I've looked your case over better, so your choice of words there was just not very representative of your case.
I'll try to use nicer words in the future if you'd like though. Would you prefer me to call reasons I don't like 'disagreeable' or 'egregious'? Lemme know.

"cheetoy, i like your entrance posts, but it feels like you're trying too hard to look like town/trying to make your opinions heard."

i) Cheetoy... Cheetoy?
ii) I wanted to get preliminary thoughts out there before moving on to next person. I said what I was feeling as I read through your ISO without doing hard fact checking. I could be careful and get nothing done/get demotivated or I can say things that might be wrong. Pretty okay with doing the former as nobody's going to take me seriously anyways with my reads until I'm actually caught up with things.
Not leaning scum as hard on orcinus anymore because apparently there's like an investigative role or something and his case on Mara feels less bullshitty on second readthrough. Still feel like his tone is off in D1 though.

[Cheetory6]

Save the Dragons:

#254 has a little too much confidence for my tastes on townread Varsoon and townread Ceph. Eh.
#340 I like this post.
#342 makes sense and doesn't strike me as particularly opportunistic, but still kinda wary just because of how hard the defense is on Varsoon.

I'm assuming that Orc is a counterwagon, I assume she's trying to collect town reads on it...I don't know how fruitful she thinks it is. I personally am not really assuming it's going to be fruitful.

If you thought this might be her reasoning for pushing orci, why would you out it like this?

I like that in #1065 he isn't using people scumreading Varsoon as an excuse to push scumreads on people.
#1354 is there a specific reason why Cabd is at the top of your townreads list now? What changed from now and mid-D1?

Null/townlean.

[Cheetory6]

Keeping town alive and scumhunting is not mutually exclusive.
In fact a combination of those two make for a very good towngame.

I still don't agree with the idea of posturing as what your townself would ordinarily be doing. I especially don't feel like it should motivate your actions in this game. I feel like this point isn't a stretch at all. Avoiding being anti-town is useful, trying too hard to seem like you're town is scummy.

That is not me telling ssk to vote varsoon. That is me asking ssk for his opinion on the varsoon situation. You could stretch and baaaarrrellyy be able to say that it was me asking ssk for his opinion on my case. But I am not soliciting his vote in that quote.
I also did not phrase that weirdly at all.

"Your vote is bad. Now, what do you think of this reason to vote this person?"
Okay.
I will admit that you saying that you can't understand what I'm saying there makes me feel like you legitimately meant something other than that though.

I assume you mean there was no reason for me not to lynch Varsoon? I'll let you clarify that before I reply.

I just felt like a quickwagon would have been just as valuable as the meandering that ended up happening that day. It occurs to me now that the distribution of stars is something that matters in a way such that it makes sense for the cycle to have been drawn out like that.

Irrational comment was a misunderstanding on my part I guess. q.q
Brb feeling stupid because being a replacement is making it hard to figure out the context of things in an ISO at times. Will try to be more analytical from here on out.

P-Edit:

cheetoy what do you think about STD's and book's back and forth on p57-60

Will look at it right away dorcinus. Is it fun having your name mispelled too?

[Cheetory6]

Was saying that on my first readthrough I thought "why did they wait so long to lynch him? People delaying it seem scummy", but the fact that stars go to people on the wagon mean that it's valuable to still do scumhunting and drag the day out to get more definitive reads earlier. I was admitting that I underthought the situation and that I misunderstood some context.

i'm not posturing as what my townself is normally doing.

Firstly, you saying this means nothing to me, why would you think it would? Secondly, I still feel like the tone on your BPC vote was off and felt forced. I can hunt down other examples where I thought I saw this if you're interested in understanding my scumread on you?

Zzzzz. Annoyed at how much of a dick you're being, but I probably deserve it for rushing in my ISO and being a bit too aggressive. Willing to admit I read too much into some things without accurate context, but I will still really not be surprised if you're scum and stand by what's left of my reasoning. Will try to be more civil despite your absolutely disrespectful spelling of my name.
VOTE: SMP

Bookitty feels overly aggressive in her response to STD. Don't find her reasons compelling for scumreading STD because they seem pretty forced. Don't find her scummy for doing it either because I've seen annoyed town exaggerate reasoning many times. Not a huge fan of how sure she is that he's scum in #1457. Would need to ISO to see if there's more reasoning than just her disliking his push on her. I don't like the reversal in a single post in #1463:

@Bookitty

,

I looked at STD's day one play and he did in fact vote CABD for what seems to be the same reason that he suspected me, which is sort of a towntell for STD even though CABD is a strong townread for me.

Can you explain this? Why is this a towntell?

[Cheetory6]

Wouldn't you want to do scumhunting regardless of the star thing...?

I think there's more value in being able to analyze a quickwagon than there is to dragging the cycle out inorganically. There wasn't really a super solid reason to think that Varsoon was town beyond people's gutfeelings about his reactions to his fake scumslip. I think seeing who was hesitant to get on a quickwagon and the reasoning people either forced or didn't force would have been very informative if things went by quicker. With stars you need to set up townreads on the wagon so there's more merit to letting D1 linger than otherwise.

given you haven't exactly been giving me examples of posturing there's not much else i can say here

I'll re-ISO you after I've read at least 5-6 other players. I want to get a bigger picture at this point. Deal?

i'm reaching out to you b/c i think you're town

This is better reasoning than I thought.
Heh.

the intent behind my BPC vote was to open up game. i wasn't actually scumreading BPC hard at all, but i voted him because i didn't want town to get fixated on varsoon. i was going to ask fery about that because i feel that town-fery would've picked up on that. she said something to that effect and i just wanted to clarify.

I'll let ffery clarify if that's something that she thinks you were doing. If so, I'll revisit your ISO later because I feel like I can't give a good read on you without reading it over with these updated thoughts.

[Cheetory6]

For Orci, I'm reading what I've missed however I started on this oage so I'll react now. I will not claim, TYVM.
We had a tracker follow someone, they visited you. Someone in the neighbourhood also got a message saying you're town, this mean the person visiting you is either a paranoid cop, or something else sent the message. However the fact we got such a message makes me think you're town.

Will still do a reread of orci at some point, but I'd find it pretty hard to believe that there's some kind of collusion going on here in such a way in which orcinus wouldn't be town. IE: the investigator might be lying, but I don't think they'd be lying about orcinus. Heh. Unless orcinus is some kind of investigation-immune role? Zzzz.

Curious about one more thing before I move on again though:

i'm reaching out to you b/c i think you're town

"cheetoy, i like your entrance posts, but it feels like you're trying too hard to look like town/trying to make your opinions heard."

Is there a discrepancy in reasoning here?

[Cheetory6]

Bookitty, can I get a response to my question in 1784?

[Cheetory6]

*drops all of the horses*

[Cheetory6]

Let him tell me that then.

[Cheetory6]

Text-based humour with people I don't know isn't my forté. You're next in my ISO for making me paranoid with answering for orci like that though.
(≼⓪≽◟⋌⋚⋛⋋◞≼⓪≽)

[Cheetory6]

I think I agree, but it is possible for him to be scum.

I don't understand why you wouldn't be taking this approach at this point Boo. You have no idea what my scum meta is like. What if I'm equally as tryhard as scum? Zzzz.

Book:

I don't like her defense of Cabd in #620. I feel like it's unreasonable to ask someone to not be suspicious of X because X is playing protown. I would be hesitant to go after someone with that much set-up knowledge as well on day one, but it's no reason to defend them as not being scum. Granted, I can understand the motivation if she's townreading Cabd, but the actual reasoning she touts at STD just feels.. eh.

@Bookitty

,
i) It looked like you had a lot of townreads vs scumreads early D1. Is there a reason why? Do you still stand by your flubber townread?
ii) You mentioned that people trying to make a counterwagon on D1 could potentially be scum trying to get stars, did you think that STD was the best possible example of this at the time?

Also, reread Day One of this game again. I think I took firm stances and even pointed out things from my own scum play that I saw in others in this thread. If I were scum, why would I pull back the curtains like that?

Do you think this is a convincing reason as to why you're not scum this game?

Also, given that you base so much of your scumhunting on meta, do you also base your scumgame on your own meta as well?

[Cheetory6]

Flubber:

A lot of what he's saying is pretty.. scattered, but that's not necessarily alignment indicative.
I don't like that he was on the Varsoon wagon, even if I'm not getting particularly bad vibes from him. I think more people should have made a fuss over that and frankly I'm surprised that nobody did.
I actually like the reasoning behind voting STD. Can follow that thought process pretty clearly.

@Flub

, who are you most suspicious of right now and why? What do you think of Lynx and Honey Bee?

[Cheetory6]

Missed this one:

Also, given that you base so much of your scumhunting on meta, do you also base your scumgame on your own meta as well?

[Cheetory6]

Was basically asking because it seemed pretty off to me that you were getting on STD's case for not applying meta to you, when obviously if you're known to use meta as a pretty big tool in your arsenal then obviously you're going to play to counteract/hide any meta tells. Why would you think it's scummy for him to not be applying meta to someone who would worry more about meta than most people in this game?

[Cheetory6]

Bottom of 1784.

[Cheetory6]

Almost all of the play that you and orci have that's stood out to me in a potentially scummy way you've been able to explain in a logical manner. I want to lean town on both of you, I'm just getting this bad feeling that I'm just being talked out of reads by scum who's just playing a lot better than me. q.q

[Cheetory6]

Mara exchange looked pretty damning. There's some small chance that sober Mara could explain this, but I'm not seeing any reasonable explanation for any of this.

My vote is on her in spirit, but there are probably players that are more universally townread that should be getting the stars for this.

[Cheetory6]

Fuck it, saw the list of people not voting for Mara.
VOTE: Mara
Brian should vote for Mara because investigations and stuff.

[Cheetory6]

Which ones and why?

[Cheetory6]

@NS, wouldn't be the first time really terrible townplay has led to a mislynch this game if she ended up flipping town. I didn't really believe Mara, but I didn't necessarily see any harm in hearing what she had to say from a sober standpoint. Do you disagree with that?

[Cheetory6]

I'm not criticizing you q.q

[Cheetory6]

She looks town? q.q
To me it struck me as scum doing a last ditch effort to break a wagon. =/

[Cheetory6]

o.o
Did not know that. Will be really unimpressed if she's scum.
UNVOTE: Mara
Is there any circumstance in which she could be scum and replace out there and not have it be a bannable offence?

[Cheetory6]

I mean, couldn't you just pretend to be angry? :/

[Cheetory6]

Konowa's vote on Mara is unexplained which reads almost too blatant to be scummy?
wgeurt's vote on Konowa feels opportunistic, but given wgeurt's play so far I'm not swayed on his alignment from it.
Scummiest vote on the last few pages feels like Albert's. Don't like that he's adding in reasoning after his vote as though he might be nervous about seeming opportunistic. Really, I kind of did the same thing though so :/

[Cheetory6]

People who avoided voting for her entirely would be my best guess for scum at this point TBH. I think trying to get a vote in this last minute would put people under more scrutiny, the kind that I don't think scum would find worth it. Don't really have time to look at who might be the best example of this right now, but you get the idea.

[Cheetory6]

Approximately my fourth game on this site.

I can't find four games of you on this site.

A reminder that you may not talk about ongoing games

Cheetory.

Assumed I couldn't respond to this because the three games = games currently happening, not games that are complete.

I didn't at all like Cheetory's unvote that seemed like it was following orc's lead.

He hasn't shown that he's willing to back any of his own independent thoughts

. Especially with the "I will let other more worthy players like Brian Skies be on the wagon" that I didn't like. Reminds me of why I think Bookitty's reasons for thinking honey bee is town is also wrong.

I voted Mara both because her claim felt like a scum PR and I felt like her ragequit was scum trying to throw people off her wagon. NS and orci said the latter is a bannable offense. Sorry if I don't have a lot of conviction after being told that all of my thoughts on orci were pretty much wrong.
Also, the bolded feels like you haven't read my entire ISO. Just saying.
The Brian Skies part was because he's been 1-shot copped. Why would you not want conf town getting stars?

[Cheetory6]

Not on MS.
Have some offsite. Can link if you'd like?

[Cheetory6]

Last four games, two town are the most recent:
http://www.d2forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=11866
http://www.d2forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=11812
two scum are the next two most recent:
http://www.d2forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=11725
http://www.d2forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=11660

[Cheetory6]

Cheetory gains scummy points for unvoting after you

No interest in responding to my answer for this or are you content with just arbitrarily holding on to a scumread on me for one thing without actually engaging me on it?

Trying to reread everything right now.
Also trying not to OMGUS scumread/scumread ABR for what might just be playstyle.

[Cheetory6]

This is convoluted reasoning. You can't prove that someone is replacing out to change the game state. Natirsha's threat isn't enforceable unless the guilty party literally admits to replacing out to give their faction an edge.

I figured if she was scum she should have been modkilled. I have a hard time seeing her temper tantrum being legitimate if she is scum, in which case she would have been abusing a game mechanic for her faction's benefit.

I don't see how a reasonable townie who is convinced that Mara is scum will unvote Mara because NS and orci say that it's a bannable offense to replace out as scum to gain an edge.

My reasoning for voting her was I thought she was abusing the mechanic from a scumPOV and that her expecting orci to townread her for her claim didn't make any sense at all. When I learned that she would be banned if she was abusing the mechanic, then half my case was out the window and I felt I needed to reread to be confident in any kind of read on her. I hadn't even been considering that scum could replace out if they're emotional and I'm relatively unfamiliar with some of the mechanics of this site work [EG: talking about other games].

I'm a replacement who made a lot of fuck ups during my reread and haven't had a chance to look at the whole game with a complete perspective. TBH it feels super fucking opportunistic from my perspective for you to be jumping on me for being uncertain in my reads when I've given ample explanation for that in my back and forth with orci, but I admit that back and forth was dense and I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't read it as either alignment so all I have is just a bad feeling about you at this point.

Still reading up.

[Cheetory6]

Also, orci is making me paranoid.
Zzzzzz.

[Cheetory6]

@SSK&ffery

, what're your reads on each other?

Also

@SSK

, are you still scumreading orci? Why did you being annoyed with his play indicate that he's scummy?

[Cheetory6]

@STD

, can I get your read on ffery?

[Cheetory6]

Fuck yes. Finally caught up.

I like NS for town.

@STD

, #254 with a vote and unvote in the same post is weird. I know it was a while ago, but why did you bother including both? Also, where are you sitting on ABR?

@Cabd

, what's your read on Konowa? Also, why didn't you try and enforce what you said in #261 at any point during D1? Is there any reason you haven't been attacking bad wagonvotes if you were pushing this mentality earlier?

Lynx is bothering me for reasons that have already been stated. Saying he's okay with Varsoon wagon and is impatient for it to go through, but not committing a vote to it feels safe.

Waffling on SMP. He needs to do more this cycle/he needs to vote for literally anybody at this point.
Also,

Also, in a large game, the players who post a ton without actually saying anything or clog up the thread do more damage than in a 13 player game.

Why is Flubber the best example of this?

Feel like ABR is scum. Thing that resonates with me the most right now is that he tried to seem all proactive by saying wagons should happen while sitting on a useless grapes vote for no obvious reason.

VOTE: Albert
Gloves off, your move.

some meta work fery and i did

Would you mind elaborating on this?

[Cheetory6]

I think he's town.

Any particular reason why?

What is your read of STD? Of me?

Null on STD.
My read on you is leaning scum. Can go into more detail in a little bit.

[Cheetory6]

What if we get to day end and nothing happens? There's no guarantee that we can lynch it even if we manage to get enough for a hammer and even if we can kill it with a lynch, this game is going to start getting really slow if we don't get a flip this cycle.

I'm legitimately annoyed that I'm leaning town on you wgeurts.
Tell me what you make of Lynx.

[Cheetory6]

Also, did you end up rereading ABR?

[Cheetory6]

wow that sucks

I swear it works if you do a post that exists.

I'll just use URL from now on.

[Cheetory6]

He tries harder as town, and he's more paranoid as town. He particularly tries harder as town in Nati games.

Can you give examples where you feel he's trying harder/is being more paranoid in your eyes?

I think he relies on his reputation as a chronic lurker as scum.

Would you classify his play during D2 as not lurking?

[Cheetory6]

Also, sorry to hear that ffery.

[Cheetory6]

orci this is really the route you wanna go? q.q

[Cheetory6]

@ffery, so him questioning you so much early on in the game is a pretty ordinary thing for him to do from his meta?

[Cheetory6]

Hehhhhhhhhh.
Null on ffery now. Still want to hear SSK's read on her though.
Also, is there any possibility that SSK backed off on orci because he heard about the investigation via scum from a neighborhood before it was released in thread?

[Cheetory6]

Zzzzz. What if we get no star points from this? What if lynching it kills people?
There are so many questionable things with this and I really don't like the idea of not getting a flip out of this cycle.

no because ssk is in ABRs neighborhood, not in cabd's

What? I'm saying that if SSK isn't in Cabd's neighborhood, is it possible that scum from cabd's neighborhood told him about the orci investigation and hence he backed off?

[Cheetory6]

Keely.

[Cheetory6]

some meta work fery and i did

Would you mind elaborating on this?

[Cheetory6]

[2014-05-19 11:24:07 AM] Keely: I generally just do something dumb as town
[2014-05-19 11:24:14 AM] Keely: and then almost get lynched from it
[2014-05-19 11:24:21 AM] Blehsan: (chuckle)
[2014-05-19 11:24:27 AM] Mr. Wizard Lizard Esq The Frog Ribbit: yeah, I'm kinda iffy as town as well
[2014-05-19 11:24:36 AM] Keely: so I'm worried people will be like
[2014-05-19 11:24:41 AM] Keely: "why isn't Cheet being dumb?"

what specific incidents are you referring to?

Pretty sure that I was referring to me having a bad tendency as town to poorly fact check things. I think Lyserg vs myself on my Mexread in this game is a good example of this:
http://d2forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=11524

[Cheetory6]

Probably best example from that game.
http://d2forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=279440#p279440
http://d2forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=279424#p279424
http://d2forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=279574#p279574

Round in between scumgame you linked and towngame I just linked where I was hydraing:
http://d2forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=283858#p283858
http://d2forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=283884#p283884
http://d2forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=283895#p283895

[Cheetory6]

Why stick your neck out if you don't have to?

Would you stick your neck out as replacement scum in a game? Are you not at all worried about orci saying my scumgame isn't obvious?
q.q
You're making me so wary with this simplistic read on me.

[Cheetory6]

I exaggerated points and didn't check specific details because I was overconfident that X player was scum in both cases.
EG:

About the underlined statement: What... Hm, maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but if I'm not, then I can tell you why: Because he made the vote for Young exactly before the Sion reaction test existed 0.0(?). Even ignoring that, why would you say Mex didn't realise it was that? I thought Mex's first comment here was acknowledging that Young was fishing for reactions, maybe I read that wrong (@Mex: Did I?).

I might have actually missed the post you linked on my reread this morning, which I know sounds scummy, but I think I just saw this post:
viewtopic.php?p=279254#p279254
and assumed Mex didn’t acknowledge the fact that it was a reaction test. Does still kind of beg the question of why Mex was prodding for the reasoning behind his Sion vote, but I admit my reasoning is a little frailer than I had originally thought when I was responding to you and Tomma. I think I just got a bad vibe from Mex’s first few posts and then just tried to use whatever I could find to piece together some kind of case. If I’m honest, it was partially because everyone takes my gutvotes a lot less seriously and I wanted to make it be more than gut and a super frail reason. But I was definitely a bit careless with putting together my thoughts and ended up unintentionally making up some shit that Mex didn’t really do. I’ll try to take off the tunnel vision and analyze everything again, in the meantime I’ll still answer any questions anyone has for me while I try to see if I’m just being an idiot.

I almost got lynched for a combination of this and because of last minute D1 wagon shenanigans.

In the other game, I said Kami hadn't talked about Roger at all despite being asked to and used her being defensive about being vague in her responses to push a vote on her. Roger later pointed out that Kami did, in fact, talk about Roger at one point and that my points were misrepresentation based on me being careless with my push on her.

[Cheetory6]

Was musing the idea of SSK and ffery scummates based on weird interactions, but that makes sense via ffery's explanation now. Still wary of SSK because his push on you felt weird and him dropping it felt weird to me/potentially for reasons I'd already mentioned.
Would be alright with lynching ABR, Lynx or SSK at the moment.

[Cheetory6]

Yes, I feel strongly against this wagon.

Is it just the meta reasoning that you feel strongly against in terms of the reasoning for it?

[Cheetory6]

Coming down with a nasty fever. Having trouble seeing straight. Gonna try to stay caught up, but I might be somewhat less active for a little while until I'm feeling better.

Really risky claim to make if ABR's scum. If he's lying then if there's a real vig they'll hopefully get rid of him during the night.
VOTE: Lynx Would be willing to sheep a case I like less if we need a hammer.

Responses to orci, let me know if I misunderstood anything:
i) Why are you waffling on SMP?
-not sure why he would intentionally go this long without voting someone as scum when so many people have called him out on it
-got some townvibes on readback when he stood up to Ceph telling him to get off the wagon.

ii) Is waffling scummy?
Depending on the context, perhaps. Wouldn't call it a scumtell.

iii) Why isn't meta useful? #1653
Wasn't saying it wasn't useful in said quote. Just meant that it felt like Cabd was trying too hard for townpoints by pulling up reasoning that I felt had no bearing on the Varsoon situation. How someone enters a scumchat is usually pretty varied IMO, so I just didn't see the point and felt like it was him trying to seem useful rather than actually intentionally trying to sort Varsoon.

iv) Do you consider yourself a meta-centric player?
I like using it when I've played with someone. I find it hard to objectively analyze the meta of players I haven't played with other than analyzing specific generic playstyle things like "is this person ordinarily emotional under pressure?" Haven't really had the time or interest to seriously look at meta on anyone here.

v) Did you ever end up rereading orci like you promised?
No, primarily because I was feeling like individual ISOs weren't helping me see the big picture enough and I was making too many mistakes in the process. Decided that rereading the game was a better strategy. I admit I kind of skimmed orci interactions because I've been letting my read on him influence that.

vi) How were you not criticizing orci in #1924?
Was saying that Varsoon's play during D1 was bad, not the entire town in general.

vii) Why are you scumreading ffery?

Was musing the idea of SSK and ffery scummates based on weird interactions, but that makes sense via ffery's explanation now.

viii) What is your paranoia on orci?
Every now and again he'll do something so overdramatic or blatantly bandwagony that just gives me weird vibes. Weird vibes on a few interactions isn't outweighing how his interactions with me originally felt pretty townish. Would have been easy to let our argument escalate and derail the entire game, but he talked it out instead. Strongest reason I'm townreading him at the moment and that along with the amnesiac cop investigation overall outweighs my occasional worries that he's been fucking with everything this game.

ix)

I figured if she was scum she should have been modkilled. I have a hard time seeing her temper tantrum being legitimate if she is scum, in which case she would have been abusing a game mechanic for her faction's benefit.

It's just me being angry with how unfair that move was if she's scum, because I only believe what she pulled if she was town and legitimately thought orci's case on her was bullshit. Wasn't reading into Mara's alignment from it because it would have been mod bias if she had been killed and would have been the wrong call to make.

xi) Why didn't you follow through with your questioning of orci's lack of a cabd read?
I felt like regardless of whether he was town or scum, he would have well thought out reasoning for why he would be difficult with answering this. Didn't feel like I was going to get any information from pushing this and was more interested in other lines of questioning.

[Cheetory6]

ii) I think I just don't like the idea of applying scumtells universally. Things are only scummy if they can be construed as coming from a scumPOV. Some generic scumtells are too broad and ignore the context of situations in a way that I don't like. I prefer to read into the tone of posts and feel whether I can imagine that player doing what they're doing as scum.

iii) I think this is more just a personal disagreement on what we find scummy. I find it easier to imagine someone pulling meta up from old QTs to say "look! he's said similar things in the past!" from a scumPOV trying to seem like they're being protown. Maybe you disagree, I just felt like Cabd's intentions there could have easily been bullshit. There's also a reason I was only lightly leaning scum on that, because it was more of a thought than anything particularly indicative.

v) Pretty sure most of my paranoid moments came after I'd finished a reread. As for why I haven't ISOed you since then, I think you're overestimating how much energy I can put into this game. I don't have the focus to trudge through ISOs on players I'm slightly wary of anymore.

vii) Not really sure if I have in the past, I'd check tonight but I just really don't have time. Don't really try to go out of my way to look for it at least. I just noticed awkward interactions between SSK and ffery in which he would ask her questions but seemingly not conclude anything in the thread about her. Seemed like shitty scumdistancing to me.

viii) I'm not going to point out or elaborate on every paranoid thought I have in a mafia game. I can fill pages upon pages with thoughts. I try to trim it down to make my thoughts accessible.

x) Why would you avoid giving a stance if you didn't have a good reason to? I doubted you would intentionally obscure your read on Cabd from everyone without a good potential explanation in case someone questioned you on it down the line, so why waste my time prodding you for it when it would most likely be a nulltell?

Tell me about how your meta has developed, if at all, over the last 6 months. I’ve gotten the sense that you’re more careful + that you don’t say everything and anything that comes to mind. Any other changes?

I might say less, but as I said in viii I never elaborate on absolutely everything I think in a game of mafia. I try to avoid as much of the stuff I feel is blatantly inaccessible, WIFOMy, emotionally based and try to keep my thoughts more concise so I don't choke the game with points that nobody is going to read or care about. Replacing in was kind of an exception here because I just wanted to get base thoughts out there and make it possible for people to interact with me so I could catch up quicker.

what specifically about being overdramatic + blatantly bandwagony gives you weird vibes?

If someone is really good at faking emotion then they can use this kind of strategy to abuse how players are typically townread.

Will need to get back to you on meta changes. I'm getting really tired writing this. If you want to convince me onto someone other than Lynxreplacement tonight you're going to need to be quick because I'm falling asleep here.

[Cheetory6]

@orci

,
i) How long have you been scumreading ffery?
ii) Can you make this case on ffery more accessible? What's the difference between her townplay and scumplay that makes this so obviously a scumgame for her?

@ffery

,
You implied that orci jumping on you was indicative of his alignment in #2406. How are you reading him now?

[Cheetory6]

Ceph, what do you make of ABR's claim?

[Cheetory6]

I feel that lynching on play is virtually always the best way to play

What about ABR's play is making him your preferred choice right now?

[Cheetory6]

Assumed that he would be your preferred choice because that's where your vote is and I haven't seen you push anywhere else this cycle other than Lynx.

@ABR

, can you explain why you unvoted me in #2174?

i mean i've already made it abundantly clear it's a cheetory case

[Cheetory6]

I asked because Ceph naked voted ABR and wanted to understand his read better.
I ask questions as town or scum.
Please just make the case on me because I'm getting pretty fucking annoyed at being softpushed like this.

[Cheetory6]

I would rather be hardpushed and be able to respond to suspicion on me.

Did you notice that our entire neighborhood piled on at that point?

No.

It's easier to ask questions than to write analysis. Town does both, usually.

Do you think me asking questions is just posturing to try and look town? Insulting to my scum game if so.

[Cheetory6]

Vote for me you fucking cowards.
Lol.

[Cheetory6]

It's also difficult for me to apply the same tactics as town in a game I'm replacing into which is super convoluted.

[Cheetory6]

Your self-destruct reads more caught scum and less disgruntled town.

It's not a self destruct. I'm still going to play the game and respond to things. Congrats on making the weakest analysis of my play ever. If you're town, you're playing so half-assedly this day cycle.

[Cheetory6]

If you're town, I wouldn't expect the same tactics as your scum game on that site.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

[Cheetory6]

Do you think that's the only reason I'm voting you?

Trying not to be a dick with responding to you here.
No, it's probably not the only reason.

How is my play subpar other voting for you?

I've tried reading through everything you've said at least twice now and haven't felt anything. You make me feel dead inside. None of the cases you've posted have convinced me of anything. None of your analysis has made me lean town or scum on you. You're just kind of there even though you're posting more often than someone like Konowa/Flubber.

It's also difficult for me to apply the same tactics as town in a game I'm replacing into which is super convoluted.

It's hard for me to apply my usual town tactics as a replacement here.

[Cheetory6]

You're asking the kinds of questions I ask when I'm scum. I get the impression like you're feeling around the edges looking for lynch appetite or something.

How are the questions I've asked any worse than the questions that STD has been asking in the last few pages of his ISO?

[Cheetory6]

@ffery

, so my question to Ceph felt like I was literally only trying to gauge whether ABR is still lynchable? I overthink this game so hard when I'm town or scum and I think my meta can attest to that. Is it really that unlikely that I'm getting frustrated that all of my reads are shit even though I've put so much time trying to catch up and read things in this game? I also gave a reason for why I was questioning him on it.

[Cheetory6]

Confidence in my towngame is also based on whether I get strong gutvibes that someone is scum and whether I'm comfortable with the playerlist.

So this is hypocritical again and cheet is fabricating reasons to scumread me.

I didn't call your selfmeta scummy here, I was more just expressing that selfmeta isn't really a valid defense. I'm an idiot for using it too, but I fail to see how me being stupid makes me scum.

“Hey Alt. Try and read me.”
- Cheet, p24
“Also people should look at me too because I post a lot and should be a topic of interest.”
-Cheet, p27
Which is all hilariously hypocritical.

It's fucking different though. You were asking someone who you thought was suspicious of you if they were scumreading you. I was trying to start conversation in both of those instances. This is fucking hard misrep dude.

Furthermore, he’s easily blown off his questioning here which is not a marker of his town game. He backs off far too easily here.

Explained reasoning behind not pushing a single line of questioning here. Said player I questioned in that game was someone who had no potential explanation for completely ignoring reading someone when I'd asked them to and they'd entirely ignored me. If you can't see the difference there then I don't even know what the fuck to tell you at this point.

So he’s treating easy lynches differently in this game than in the town games we’ve been meta’ing.

This is a big game in which the deadline is winding down and I want flips to solidify reads.

This is why applying meta too hard is bullshit because you're wrong. Lol. I honestly just want to get to L-2, claim, and if you don't believe me by then just be free from this game.

P-Edit: holy fuck dude, ignoring questions is different than you giving a roundabout answer that I expected you to eventually explain. Seriously. What the fuck

[Cheetory6]

STD is the scummiest person to bandwagon this atm.
No engagement with me. He's just talking with orci about it and pushing forward his own terrible reasoning in a way that feels like he's trying to seem like he's contributing.
If I get lynched please give him shit D3.

[Cheetory6]

Whoops the last quote is from a scumgame.

Clearly this means that I'm innocent because I follow up on questions when I'm scum! Checkmate.

[Cheetory6]

Cheet is also a very reaction-heavy player in the game I’ve seen.

I haven't used reaction tests in a while because they're gimmicky and I only like using them early on D1s.

[Cheetory6]

Why the defeatist attitude already?

Because I hate being in this game. This is easily the least fun game of mafia I've played in a really long time.

What reads would a lynx flip solidify, pray tell? I think this is bullshit.

Why do I need specific answers to this? The wagon on him could be informative, if he flips scum it could lead to associative tells and I don't know what else. I just feel like I'll be able to make more sense of things with a flip that I've been involved with at this point.

There are a lot more quotes you’d need to explain then if you want to go down that path. You follow up on questions pretty hard in your towngames and you haven’t been doing that here.

I follow up on specific questions pretty hard when I see an angle I want to pursue. If I like answers to things or don't see it going anywhere then I move on to something else. You telling me that I don't do that in my towngames?

I mean sure but meanwhile players have bandwagoned on before I even posted anything so why aren't you going after them?

I'm self-centered.

I didn’t know whether or not STD was scumreading me, which is why I asked for clarification

Do you seriously think "STD r u scumreading me?" is the same as me saying "yoh Alt, you haven't said much yet, read me". One is trying to see what people are thinking of you. The other was me clearly trying to start conversation with someone who hadn't done much in the game.

This is false because if you read the quote I wasn’t actually defending myself from anything, so that first sentence is a lie.

I already told you I skimmed hard on my first readthrough, so I don't know why you're assuming I'm lying about making mistakes. I'm playing clumsy. You've got me there. I really fail to see why that makes me scum.

i mean sure but why do we do things as scum? because we try to look town to people.

when playing on your homesite others are familiar to you so they know what to expect from a towngame. they expect aggression (ie the quote i gave of some dude)

but here, with nobody to supposedly know your meta, you can let your guard down if you're scum. if you were town you'd continue to bite lines of questioning hard because that's how you scumhunt, but you'd have no reason to do it if you were scum

Do you have meta on me replacing into a game? Do you have meta on me replacing into a game where I know almost none of the playerlist? Your example falls apart super fucking hard because you assume that I'm going to play town the exact same way when I'm trying to analyze shit that I wasn't directly a part of.

[Cheetory6]

Isn't it curious the parallels between his treatment of fuzzylogic in death note and his treatment of flubber here, even though I would argue they are the same amount of village idiot.

Also, in a large game, the players who post a ton without actually saying anything or clog up the thread do more damage than in a 13 player game. It's a lot harder to keep up and make reads when post after post is just filled with useless info.

I attached sentiment from first quote to second quote.
Look guys, I lied about SMP doing something. I'm mafia.

tell me more. it seemed like you were doing fine before we dropped scumreads on you?

mara replacement was dumb.
ffery and albert suspicions being derailed by IRL stuff is demotivating.
lynx replacement stalled things.
shitty points and endless back and forth with you is annoying.
half the playerlist is doing fuck all.
I've made a shit ton of mistakes.
Yeah. having a blast here.

[Cheetory6]

Vote for me then. Jesus.

[Cheetory6]

Here’s lynx’s iso (viewtopic.php?t=59714&f=3&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&user_select%5B%5D=24437&user_select%5B%5D=0&user_select%5B%5D=0&user_sort=Go)
Tell me what a town flip might indicate, and what a scum flip might indicate.

You need specific answers to this because I don’t think a lynx flip would solidify any reads.

I don't have any specific answers for associative tells and I'm not going to fake them. Would likely look at how people were talking about Lynx rather than how Lynx was talking about people. I stand by the act of making a wagon on someone as policylynchy as Lynx being informative. How people get on it or stay off it can be informative.

i mean i am as "ok" with a lynx wagon as the next guy. i just don't think we're lynching lynx for information, we're lynching lynx + replacement for being lurksacks and for being scummy

Game needs to progress. I was scumreading Lynx for a few reasons, but really I just care more about progressing the state of the game at this point.

How can that not be construed as trying to see what people are thinking of you?

Again, it's a focus on trying to start conversation. I'm saying there's a lot of material on me so people should be able to talk about me.

I mean sure but then this brings us back to the question where both of us self-meta’d, and you called me scum for it when it’s something you do in the same situation as town.

How? I already said I didn't call you scummy for this.

So you’re telling me you haven’t seen any angles to pursue this game?

ABR, Mara, SSK and Lynx have been angles. Had angle on you and it didn't pan out.

[Cheetory6]

Okay, in your Post 2570, SMP didn't say that.

Fucked up the owner of the quotes. Was saying that I thought SMP was following the logic from quote A to quote B. EG: someone was commenting on something relating to flubber and then SMP said something that I thought was related to that.

[Cheetory6]

Might have to go limited access until D3. Would unvote but I feel like my COp is the only thing that's going to keep me alive.
Will check in when before deadline in case you guys end up deciding to lynch me.

[Cheetory6]

i) Sorry for being a baby this game. Playing multiple games and replacing into the madness of this game while exams and sickness were happening was a dumb decision on my part.

ii) I'm happy my reads were surprisingly accurate once I'd caught up given how baffled I was with everything.

iii) Just wanted to say that shooting me was super ballsy and smart @ABR. That was really good play on your part.

Thanks for putting up with me everyone and looking forward to playing again when I'm in a better place and stuff haha.

[Cheetory6]

cheet you were one of my favorite new people i met this game!!

c:
Back at ya.
I liked this playerlist a lot.

[Cheetory6]

I don't blame you for misreading me, I was being a bit of a jerk and I could see someone thinking it's fake. I'm sorry for calling your play unmemorable and stuff. I was just pissy.

[Cheetory6]

I have no idea how most of my hood didn't realize I was confirmed town lol.