Capcom Crossover Chaos - GAME OVER~

[The Will of Heaven]

yeah ok

skitty still scum, pie unlyncher or something

later

[The Will of Heaven]

i dont know how else to explain pie's actions, so that's what came to mind

if someone can explain why fight so hard against skitty's lynch (harder than even skitty himself), then do

[The Will of Heaven]

1. if NS's play this game makes any sense at all from a scum POV. you claim he wanted to claim survivor in order to coast, but if that was his goal, there are a fuckton of better things he could claim (e.g. hated claim seems to be the gold standard for scum coasting claims recently, see marquis in dangan ronpa 2). claiming survivor, in fact, would draw him even _more_ negative attention than not doing so, especially given he's bound to get PL'ed for it later. it doesn't actually make any sense that he would claim survivor as scum here, and you should really know this

This point doesn't make any sense whatsoever. You want me to believe notscience is not scum because he could have made a better fakeclaim? You expect anyone to believe that "hey, claim's so bad he MUST be telling the truth" when the claim was counterclaimed once already, there's a neighborhood he's not saying shit in, and he straight up lied about the reasons for why he's claiming. If you believe, oh, he wouldn't claim survivor because it would get him too much negative attention, then ok, he obviously has no reason to claim survivor unless he actually is survivor and that is blatantly fucking false. Telling me I should know better doesn't work when you add absolutely no evidence whatsoever in order to support his point.

2. what NS *actually* has to gain by supposedly lying about this being a normal game as scum here. hint: nothing, which is why insinuating he'd lie about it is fucking dumb

He claimed the normal shit as an overly complex response to why he originally claimed "I win with everyone!" then changed his story after he got fucking counterclaimed by a REAL survivor whose existence proves that he's lying out of his ass. There's something seriously, seriously concerning going on in your slot when you read this and you go "oh! he has no reason to lie! he must be telling the truth or just trolling lol". You know he's not trolling. If he's trolling, he's past the point of antitown into blacklistable behavior and I know damn well that the notscience I know and love wouldn't pull shit like this unless he was scum. I'm mostly having trouble seeing two people whose abilities I respect falling for such a thin layer of crap.

[The Will of Heaven]

Skitty, I would like direct answers to two questions when you return, please.

1) Why did you not answer my question on our board?

2) WTF is THIS?

i think goat is breadcrumbing that hes scum
obvs he asked a question in the scum pt and hes waiting for his buddy to answer him

If you're going to deny that we're neighbors, then this is going to go in a completely different direction.

1. its 4:30 am and i stayed up to do my history homework
bro if you want answers ask ur questions here but clearly you were asking the wrong person (aka ur scumbuddy)

2. u heard me do u wanna fight

Anyone that wants to defend this after this post and response literally breaks my heart. Notscience's posts as an individual were bad enough but then this comes and people still go "maybe notscience is telling the truth!"? No. If you're town, pull your head out of your ass. If you're scum, the only way defending this possibly makes sense is if you're cult to his cult leader, in which case, I apologize because I know that feeling. But if you're not, please take a step back from the game and ask yourself what exactly you're doing.

[The Will of Heaven]

holy shit notscience i swear to god if you're doing what I think you're doing we are going to have a lot of words

[The Will of Heaven]

I'm sorry pie, you didn't deserve that at all. I'm a complete and total idiot who occasionally goes barreling a bit too hard and that's what happened this morning. I pushed hard back against you because it seemed like you were really going to shut down the notscience push with weak reasons because ~ego~ and there was no way in hell I was willing to let that happen. I see what you're doing, and I apologize for being an idiot yet again.

[The Will of Heaven]

Notscience:

Also:

@NS: There is only one scenario that I can think of based on your recommended reading that would cause me to back off you. If this scenario is true (I doubtit is), it still requires more honesty and it requires you to actually give a fuck about the game and play townily. There is no reason for you to lurk/vote on the biggest wagon if the excuse you provided isn't true.

Why the hell did you ignore this when I initially posted it? You do realize if you went "I lied about being survivor, it was a bad, I apologize", I would have backed off immediately and the past 20 pages wouldn't have happened... right?

[The Will of Heaven]

I'm sorry pie, you didn't deserve that at all. I'm a complete and total idiot who occasionally goes barreling a bit too hard and that's what happened this morning. I pushed hard back against you because it seemed like you were really going to shut down the notscience push with weak reasons because ~ego~ and there was no way in hell I was willing to let that happen. I see what you're doing, and I apologize for being an idiot yet again.

If you could explain it to me like

I'm

an idiot, I'd appreciate it.

Notscience is lying about being a survivor. He's aligned with town.
He is going to come clean about everything in the neighborhood to you, down to explaining why he kept pushing me to that old game, why he decided to pull this shit in the first place, why he decided he would go "hey I'm gonna only vote the biggest wagon ^.^", considering this is a BASTARD GAME and night actions are liable to be much more misleading than just scumhunting. If he does not come clean about everything in the neighborhood to you by 8:00 PM CST (approximately 12 hours from now), I will happily explain everything I've just learned because his game has done enough damage.

[The Will of Heaven]

I didn't make sense for ns to have claimed survivor as scum before his hydra partner appeared,

(((still don't really believe this, sorry)))

Why did you move your partner's vote from BRO? I was just glancing through the case now.

[The Will of Heaven]

Claiming survivor in post 1 as scum without the approval of your hydra partner would be absolutely awful. I have more respect for ns than to think that's possible.

Anyway, that clearly didn't happen.

yet doing the same thing as town is acceptable?

[The Will of Heaven]

now, you might say "setup spec is null", but in this context, it's scummy. why? there is a very distinct lack of scumhunting anywhere in here at all. it is a very basic tactic to comment on irrelevant things, or poke at things here and there, in order to appear like you're doing smth when you're really not.

So, I agree, BRO's initial catchup posts generally didn't have much in terms of pushes. I think it's a weak point to say that BRO as scum would be empty-posting early game as scum because generally the type of scum that adopt those types of strategies are shitty scum. Maybe BRO-scum would do something like that if he expected to be townread because he's not adopting an agenda or if it bucked his normal meta, but, he's had the view of his meta being hard as shit to read and constantly changing so that doesn't make sense and I have no idea why run of the mill posts would work towards BRO getting townread.

I really didn't like this, in particular. it doesn't seem like it's coming from a mindset of trying to figure anything out; if you look at the reasoning he was using, most of the conclusions are pretty obvious, and I don't see why it was necessary to introduce the math into it. it should really be common sense not lynching a jester is more optimal than lynching if it's win-stealing. I feel like it's coming more from a scum-trying-to-gain-approval mindset with all the shiny numbers as opposed to actually trying to accomplish anything.

Don't really understand why math where it isn't necessary is a scumtell: maybe that would make sense if he was using it as added authority to push some scummy agenda through, but that doesn't really seem to be the case at all: waiting him to get shot was the optimal move regardless of whatever the fuck he was and that's what a majority of the playerlist had forgotten at that point. So, him pointing out the obvious doesn't mean he gets holy shit townpoints but I don't think it was an unnecessary move at the point.

I didn't like either of these posts. neither of them add anything to the game; they are more posts that I feel are coming more from a scum-trying-to-gain-approval mindset as opposed to a town-trying-to-figure-things out mindset.

I don't like this point, it's a far far reach to get where you're going.

this is the second sign of scum hunting in his ISO. as I said, I absolutely fucking hate this. it is a completely specious argument. it is an argument he made bc he was looking for stuff to comment on, saw this, and thought he could easily attribute scum motivation to it in a way no one would contest.

First of all, I'd like to point out that BRO as town picks up on the weirdest shit imaginable in ways that seem very very surface level and just stupidly wrong but actually end up being much more on point than you'd expect. For example, his observation to Mala's reaction to how she interacted with Hanzo's pushing hydras in Wicked Mafia which he pretty much got lynched for but was absolutely correct about. I don't think it's a bad point, either: you're correct, coaching is the wrong word. But BRO is completely correct that it makes absolutely no sense for town to go "didn't you know you claimed a policy lynch???" to someone who made themself a policy lynch. It does make sense for scumbuddy reacting to another scumbuddy making an egregious mistake without anyone's permission, though. I also don't understand why you think town is more likely to do something like that? Unless I misunderstood your implication, of course.

this is *another* post that I feel is coming more from a scum-trying-to-seek-approval mindset than a town-trying-to-figure-things-out mindset. and the thing is, his frustration here seems entirely out of place. if you go to read Wicked, you will see that he pointed out a bunch of things about Mala and continuously argued for basically the entire D1 about it, while no one listened to him.

Read Wicked again: his case started with that one tiny point, and then expanded out to a full case later when Mala started posting more. No one listened to him, but he certainly held his initial point as important and kept bringing it up pages and pages later, which is similar to the mindset he's holding onto here. I think frustration makes sense when you're seeing history repeating itself: I've certainly seen people rage a lot earlier than they should when they start to see signs of a cycle, I know I do.

SHIT GOTTA GO =[

[The Will of Heaven]

It's far less bad, because in this case it doesn't really do much to change the game for them. From here out they'll just play as normal.

Claiming survivor as scum is basically bussing your own slot for no reason, and completely ruins the game for your hydra partner.

same goes for town. you basically make yourself a lynch, and completely ruins the game for your hydra partner.

[The Will of Heaven]

i dont have a clue wtf nacho is going on about, but even if ns is somehow town, I do not buy this out of nowhere certainty from you and pie that doesn't even make any sense.

[The Will of Heaven]

It's far less bad, because in this case it doesn't really do much to change the game for them. From here out they'll just play as normal.

Claiming survivor as scum is basically bussing your own slot for no reason, and completely ruins the game for your hydra partner.

You and I have very different perspectives on things.
I would not be a very happy camper at all if Wisdom claimed survivor in his first post without my permission.

[The Will of Heaven]

i dont have a clue wtf nacho is going on about, but even if ns is somehow town, I do not buy this out of nowhere certainty from you and pie that doesn't even make any sense.

If you added me on Skype maybe you'd know!

[The Will of Heaven]

It's far less bad, because in this case it doesn't really do much to change the game for them. From here out they'll just play as normal.

Claiming survivor as scum is basically bussing your own slot for no reason, and completely ruins the game for your hydra partner.

Can you explain why on Earth they would do what they've done thus far as town? Because I can't.

I know for a fact they're lying, as well. My vote stays.

Notscience is going to fully out everything to you when he gets back online.
My vote isn't moving until then, but you deserve a pretty full explanation.

[The Will of Heaven]

But why would he pull such a bullshit stunt for 0 reward?

Because he made a ridiculously bad mistake and was too arrogant to come clean when it clearly was having a bad effect everywhere else. Hopefully that will change when he sees my post! If not, I'm more than happy to clear the air.

[The Will of Heaven]

Guys, he didn't just claim survivor; he simultaneously laid the groundwork to ensure he could back out. He wasn't in real danger.

Yes he was. If you didn't come in and save his ass, he probably would've gotten himself killed before he had a chance to explain his game. If he stayed quiet and did literally none of this, he'd have a pretty long time of no one bothering him and not being a gigantic center of attention.

[The Will of Heaven]

Two more posts before I have to go:

CALED. CONFIRM THAT YOU ARE NEIGHBORS WITH GOAT. THANK YOU.

[The Will of Heaven]

Pie:

I feel overall your case on BRO is that he seems to be currying favor instead of actually figuring shit out: you take a lot of quotes and a lot of words to say this, but ultimately this is your point. I don't think BRO is incapable of faking scumhunting as scum: I think BRO is probably in the top 5% of scum players on site and I think faking scumhunting is one of the first skills you learn as scum. I don't think that BRO as scum would play to curry favor to the lower 50% of players in this playerlist (which is what he would be doing as scum in this situation): he gains much more by currying to bigger voices (me, you, Southern Belles off the top of my head) and he sure as hell isn't going to fool any of these people with setup spec and no scumhunting. I also think you bring up decent points to why BRO is playing subpar, but I don't really understand how this equals gotcha scum, if that makes sense.

[The Will of Heaven]

is it possible caled had not realized you're neighbors or something? even if they are scum, that's silly to do

[The Will of Heaven]

is it possible caled had not realized you're neighbors or something? even if they are scum, that's silly to do

No. We had acknowledged each other's existence on the board before my "what are you trying to do?" question.

ns

and

caled had posted there or just ns?

[The Will of Heaven]

well in that case caled just didnt want to give out you're neighbors or something, not realizing ns had done it already?

makes more sense than refusing they're your neighbors.

pedit: @goat

[The Will of Heaven]

well i'll let caled explain it because i dont feel like speaking for her but i can see her doing that as town

[The Will of Heaven]

I don't think goat is scum ns. What would you think in his shoes?

[The Will of Heaven]

VOTE: tiphaine

What do you think about this instead?

[The Will of Heaven]

not nacho, but yeah

[The Will of Heaven]

He prolly is, goat.

Do you have any other reads?

[The Will of Heaven]

hi gif

Why dn?

[The Will of Heaven]

I don't trust hoods. You can meta me on that if you'd like. Idk why she lied. She probably won't be here today and I can ask tomorrow.

And explain how that's the only logical explanation.

pedit-

Nope!

And it's actually true. Hence the unvote from Nacho. He found what I was going for.

I am 95% confident that Goat is town. Please claim everything in your neighborhood, or I'm claiming everything in thread.
Think of it this way: you might not trust Goat, but at least he's not every player with access to the thread!

[The Will of Heaven]

goat consider for a moment skitty are town and give us your reads on other people

[The Will of Heaven]

I was going to catch up in this game today but today's commute includes tunnels and I'm gonna die at any point so

[The Will of Heaven]

I just wanted to let you all know that I love you and I will probably see you in 12 hours.
And hi Tammy!
And pie I just read through your response and will make it my first priority. Bro, I don't think that vote was very good!

[The Will of Heaven]

arc is town

[The Will of Heaven]

good job wisdom

[The Will of Heaven]

the thing I always remember about BRO is that what I've seen of his scum play always winds up being hilariously obvious to me, but no one ever lynches him. I've seen him do really brazen and/or obvious things as scum, probably working under the assumption no one will call him on it - the thing I'll always remember is how in NY167 his arguments were *really* obviously manipulative, and despite that bauss was the only one who saw it and he ultimately wasn't able to do anything over it.

for that reason, I don't feel comfortable thinking he's town because his strategy as scum wouldn't be good enough. I'm going to sound like such a huge hypocrite saying this, but it's essentially too scummy to be scum. don't get me wrong I get where you're coming from, but I think about if BRO thinks this kind of strategy that he's using here would actually work as scum, and I always get hung up on the fact that it's worked just fine before and I don't see why it'd be different here :/

The thing is, I agree with your premise completely (BRO-scum gets away with a lot of bullshit as scum that's hilariously obvious to a lot of players). I disagree that his play here is anything like play in his main scumgames like IN and 167: in those games, he was very aggressive and loud and sort of spewed bullshit in a constant scream ala AP in Tales of You. In this game, the significant points that you rag on (his shos coaching argument & him calling you buddies with notscience) are nothing at all the same in magnitude or volume to the scummy bullshit he's gotten away with in other games. I still think the coaching shos point was a decent one: it was a strange interaction for town to have with the claimed survivor, and it's not really too far out of the realm of possibility to interpret it as distinctly not that. And I guess I don't agree with the "it worked in the past, why wouldn't he do it here?" argument because attacking you as a scumbuddy doesn't really make sense for BRO-scum at all: you're a player who is extremely town when he engages, thus attacking you is more fuel for your fire and more opportunities for people to disagree with what he's doing and call him out on it.

[The Will of Heaven]

I think I might be going a little delirious at this point because I just daydreamed about my reasons for having DeathNote in my town pile but that is also totally a thing.

[The Will of Heaven]

And Winter Skies should also be on that town list.

[The Will of Heaven]

Internet is literal shit at the moment.

[The Will of Heaven]

If it's so obvious why are you not fighting her wagon?

[The Will of Heaven]

i can never read bulba so im not even trying

[The Will of Heaven]

why is bulba town?

[The Will of Heaven]

Like? What has he done that he wouldn't as scum?

[The Will of Heaven]

Not really? Where did that happen? Why is nobody other than Arc talking about him if that's the case?

[The Will of Heaven]

We're only talking about him because you mentioned he is town
That's hardly negative attention

[The Will of Heaven]

So what did he do that attracts attention?

[The Will of Heaven]

No

[The Will of Heaven]

Sure, bulba standards, how is he different than scum-bulba?

[The Will of Heaven]

And that's not the case here how?

[The Will of Heaven]

Nobody other than Arc is scumreading bulba
Meaning, he's avoiding attention like you claim he does as scum.
Therefore?

[The Will of Heaven]

It's not going in circles, you're just failing to explain your rrad

[The Will of Heaven]

I don't remember shos pushing bulba

[The Will of Heaven]

But even so, your point is ridiculous. People scumread him so he isn't scum..?

[The Will of Heaven]

I can never read bulba accurately because there's no difference between his town and scum play that I can see. Other people seem to have the same problem. Therefore townreading him is bullshit and I am not accepting it unless you give me proof that something he did is not what he would do as scum.

[The Will of Heaven]

I don't feel scum-bulba attacking the tiph push by calling tiph town with little reason

Why not? He does WKing as scum.

[The Will of Heaven]

My point is your read is a bunch of bullshit that you're still failing to explain

Pedit: I am not going to explain to you what scum gain by wking.

[The Will of Heaven]

He pushes people the same way as scum. That tells me nothing.

[The Will of Heaven]

You're saying yourself everyone townreads bulba when he's scum. Then you tell me he's town because gut. Do you not understand these two don't go together?

[The Will of Heaven]

@Om You said you don't know Bulba-scum. Therefore your gut read on Bulba equals shit. Like MS said, people townread Bulba-scum all the time.

[The Will of Heaven]

@goat please forget caled and start playing the game

if ns did explain his actions to you, you even have a starting point to begin from - people's different ways of handling his gambit.

[The Will of Heaven]

Can you please listen to me and put bulba as town

no

[The Will of Heaven]

i am going to listen, but not to people who don't know bulba-scum
put ms back on

[The Will of Heaven]

i dont like winter skies

[The Will of Heaven]

Om you dont fucking know Bulba so your opinion means shit to me. Bulba-scum is good at getting townread and you're townreading him, it only makes me think more that he's scum.
I want to hear more from MS who supposedly does know his scum game.

[The Will of Heaven]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: bulba

everyone and their mother is scumreading Tiph, no thanks. let's do this instead

[The Will of Heaven]

@goat please forget caled

and start playing the game

if ns did explain his actions to you, you even have a starting point to begin from - people's different ways of handling his gambit.

Absolutely, positively not. Not after what occurred.

And not forgetting does not mean I can't be productive elsewhere. I'l re-read at some point today or tomorrow.

so be productive. you've done nothing other than talk about skitty all game.

[The Will of Heaven]

Not really. There are players townreading and nullreading him.

who was townreading him other than bulba?

[The Will of Heaven]

he was telling me to just take his word for it, which I won't.

[The Will of Heaven]

can you tell me
why people scumreading tiph is a good reason to jump off the wagon
because, you know
people tend to get scumread for a reason
and most players scumreading a person is kinda how lynches happen

suppose tiph is town
what are scum going to do?

[The Will of Heaven]

i didnt even remember that, but looks like adorkable caught what im saying too.

[The Will of Heaven]

on the other hand, bulba's townread is completely unexplained and looks like a wk.

[The Will of Heaven]

scum are gonna jump on
ok
suppose bulba is town
and all this attention now gathers more negative attention
and people jump on the wagon
what are scum going to do?

We are not going to analyze things that might happen in the future. We're going to analyze things that have happened and are happening.

[The Will of Heaven]

he was telling me to just take his word for it, which I won't.

You won't take my word for what?

i wasnt talking about you

[The Will of Heaven]

Winter, I'll certainly move to a better scum candidate if I see one. But I have yet to see one. I'll to a reread and see if anything presents itself.

Okay? Everybody happy?

yes, as long as you don't then post "ok i reread and i see nothing scummy enough to make me forget skitty"

We want opinions on other things from you regardless.

[The Will of Heaven]

on the other hand, bulba's townread is completely unexplained and looks like a wk.

i seriously
dont understand what the fuck
bulba would gain from WK'ing a town tiph of all people

then you have no idea what WK is

[The Will of Heaven]

dont analyze a tiph town flip then
dont even think about it
its not like its ever going to happen in this game

Why?
Let me guess, gut?

[The Will of Heaven]

Use your brain for a moment.
If you picked two people that are possible mislynch bait in this game at the moment, who are they?

[The Will of Heaven]

he's scummy, yes. is he scum? not necessarily. The possibility of him being mislynch fodder is there. We should ignore it because..?

[The Will of Heaven]

i might be a paranoid idiot, but im right

now go reevaluate your read on bulba

[The Will of Heaven]

he's scummy, yes. is he scum? not necessarily. The possibility of him being mislynch fodder is there. We should ignore it because..?

We should ignore it because he can still just be scum. Looking like mislynch fodder doesn't actually make you mislynch fodder and sometimes scum really do just look scummy.

bullshit

[The Will of Heaven]

I'd be more interested in your read of TD if it wasn't being backed by terrible logic like what you just presented. Otherwise people can just shoot down any wagon because "ermahgad, look at all those votes, he's mislynch fodder."

nice discredit

we're looking at scum who are trying to discredit me because I'm not going along with their mislynches. probably partnered with bulba.

[The Will of Heaven]

does every single scum player play super amazingly all the time?
in that case
why dont we lynch you, mr universal townread

you can try

[The Will of Heaven]

your point being?

[The Will of Heaven]

bullcrap, everyone is voting him

[The Will of Heaven]

lets have a nice chat about how bulba is town, my reads are good and you should listen to me

your reads are both shit, i have the same opinion about ggg that i do about tiph

[The Will of Heaven]

but sure, do explain why bulba is town

[The Will of Heaven]

no you havent, lol
your reads have never been better than mine

[The Will of Heaven]

he replaced wgeurts

[The Will of Heaven]

Myself. I am declaring it anti-town to continue 1v1s due to the negative impact it has on scumhunting for town. This is completely serious. Continued posting is tantamount to a scum claim for making town's job extra convoluted.

then you should vote me because im not going to stop

[The Will of Heaven]

ive played a single completed game with you - i scumread scum and you scumread me. so yeah

[The Will of Heaven]

so go on ms, why is bulba town?

[The Will of Heaven]

you replaced out and then you made me replace out by breaking site rules, so yeah bring it in

[The Will of Heaven]

No
And you're still not explaining

[The Will of Heaven]

I was more right than you there too

[The Will of Heaven]

No he isnt

[The Will of Heaven]

Nope

[The Will of Heaven]

Oh really? And you're not set in your minds?

[The Will of Heaven]

I'm waiting for why he's town, ms

[The Will of Heaven]

So you don't know
Cool

[The Will of Heaven]

I don't think he's around atm

[The Will of Heaven]

He's scum and so is winter

ggg and tiph are lynchbait

[The Will of Heaven]

You're just wrong and you should stop

[The Will of Heaven]

You saw nothing and even if you did it means nothing as you replaced out
I won't have this argument with you, you know nothing about me, so stop acting like you do

[The Will of Heaven]

How many scum did you get lynched that game? Zero? Thought so.

[The Will of Heaven]

shos vote bulba with me

[The Will of Heaven]

I didn't, but you can't argue you're better based on a game you didn't complete.

[The Will of Heaven]

don't make associatives without a flip
Just vote bulba

[The Will of Heaven]

good thing people here know I'm usually more right than wrong so your misrepping is useless

[The Will of Heaven]

we dont have medals because we're good
we have medals because we were good as a town total in a single game. in which game you did nothing other than scumread me, btw

[The Will of Heaven]

Unofficial VC:

Skitty: 4 (GGG, The Goat, Bulbazak, TiphaineDeath)
TiphaineDeath: 3 (mental somnic, Skitty, Winter Skies)
AA9: 2 (adorkable, Major Minor)
Bulbazak: 2 (AA9, TWOH)
TWOH: 1 (droog)
BROseidon: 1 (JTS-T)
DeathNote: 1 (GuyInFreezer)
JTS-T 1 (BROseidon)
Major Minor: 1 (dramonic)

Not Voting:
DeathNote, Espeonage, ooba, PeregrineV, ZZZX, Southern Belles, shos

[The Will of Heaven]

now lets get some votes on bulba

[The Will of Heaven]

go ahead

[The Will of Heaven]

he did post something about lynching zzzx

who come to think of it, also claimed negative utility

[The Will of Heaven]

Reread and I'm wanting to lynch any of the 3rd-parties or zzzx. Bigger post coming later but can we please do a zzzx lynch?

[The Will of Heaven]

he did post something about lynching zzzx

who come to think of it, also claimed negative utility

zzzx only claimed that his lynch hurts scum, so thats not exactly negative utility unless there is something you aren't telling us???

it is kind of negative utlity if he is what i understood he is

[The Will of Heaven]

wgeurts isnt an alt mollie

[The Will of Heaven]

Deathnote is scum as well

[The Will of Heaven]

Bro why is bulba town?

[The Will of Heaven]

look at deathnote trying to encourage my 1v1 with ms further

[The Will of Heaven]

boy i guess its time i start posting in here huh

I didn't even read and I don't intend to until d2 or next week.

this needs attention as well

[The Will of Heaven]

or, more likely, you're scum and I'm on to your buddies

gl misrepping me

[The Will of Heaven]

bulba/winter skies/deathnote + whoever else

[The Will of Heaven]

@ooba, you win a <3.

@pirate mollie:

actually I'll read graveyard shift tomorrow bc I'm tired as hell right now, but one question I had immediately,

@mollie: at what point in the game was BRO being apathetic? I wasn't able to pick up on where, although I admit I only looked for like 5 minutes

.

the entire game?
i was an active posting member of that hydra for a grand total of like three posts and even i could tell that :/

[The Will of Heaven]

Bro, I don't think that vote was very good!

And I disagree! Shocker

Seriously though can you explain the town-motivation that writing a bad meta case, followed by claiming it's not a meta case, then continuing to tunnel for no discernible reason is? Because I'm having a hard time thinking of anything, whereas the scum-motivation in that is fairly obvious.

It wasn't a bad meta case: it was a case centered around you making shallow arguments. I countered this case by saying that your argument wasn't as shallow as it seemed to be + brought up meta of you making these kind of weird and seemingly shallow arguments that were actually pretty on point, and that's when meta came into the picture from pie's side.

I'm not quite on board with that. I'd need to see the Skitty-neighbor flip first.

Why was seeing a Skitty-neighbor flip necessary to call Goat town until Goat flavorclaimed?

I agree arc is town but i also confirmed that nothing she says is worth anything.

This is the beginning of my DeathNote townread: I can't help but townread him when he's in that mode where he refuses to put up with bullshit constantly.

[The Will of Heaven]

e.g. his reaction to me. you saw it, you know it was bad, this is why. most of his responses directed towards me have been disingenuous in one way or another, and while I agree this is not as flagrant as his other scum games, that does not change the fact that he is disingenuous about it.

I agree that it was bad, I disagree that it was disingenuous. I think BRO's responses tend to look fake when he starts picking apart the cases on him in painstaking detail and ignores the cases at large. I think his responses start to look fake when he starts trending towards discrediting instead of doing anything else when responding: I don't think that's happened here.

one of the points I still hate is the way he called "misrep" when I started pushing him, when it wasn't a misrep at all and I have no idea how he even gets misrep from what I said.

What he called misrep (from what I remember, I might actually be fucking this up) was your perceived strength of the Mala case, which I thought was a fair enough point. When BRO was lynched day 1 from a fake soft-CC, people generally discounted literally everything he said because they thought his case was so shallow which was something he brought up and demonstrates how some people approach the cases he makes. You can say you understood his case in that game and would have followed it if you were in that game, but it's much more compelling evidence if you were in a game with BRO and defending him after he made one of his town specious arguments.

he also continues to push my case was a meta case (when it's not, it's a motivation-based case; the only time I even brought up meta was at the end to show that he can and has done better than this as town, so I *again* don't know how he even comes up with that) and then that it's invalid because "I ignored xxx aspect of his meta" (which even if everything up to that point was correct, is an actual caught-for-the-wrong-reasons tell).

I agree that your case wasn't a meta case and I'd be interested to see how BRO responds/responded to that portion of the case if he had to refocus and defend motivations instead. I think the "you ignored xxx aspect of my meta" is one of those responses BRO/mastin/AP bring up in a majority to arguments against them because of how self-aware they are as either alignment: they very rarely feel they are caught for the right reasons as town and in most pushes against them by scum they usually feel even when people can come up with semi-valid beginnings of cases, they are missing an iceberg of depth underneath.

first off, it happens that the last time he was scum against me and I pushed him, he did... literally this and got away with it. which is probably exactly *because* no one ever calls him out for anything despite how scummy he might be.

What game was this?

I feel very uncomfortable with that. I really don't see why anyone would actually think that, and I think doing so is a huge overestimation of my abilities - the current game state is proof that I'm not able to convince anyone over this.

I think it's a well-documented fact that you generally are harder on yourself than you should be. I also know that Muffin, when he was around (god rest his soul), hated dealing with you as scum. I know how much I hate dealing with you as scum (a lot), and I know how much Mastin respects you as a player quite a bit. I know you would definitely be on BRO's threat list if he were scum this game, and I'd think it'd dramatically affect how he handled a case by you on him because he'd know you wouldn't let him escape unless he really, really worked for it. I don't think his response to you looks like he's been threatened by it at all.

there is scum motivation in attacking me (discrediting me re: the scum mislynch of the day, and to some extent himself, which is consistent with the way he claimed misrep out of nowhere), so I just don't get why this is a strong enough reason to make it not make sense. I'd really like if you could go into more detail about why you think this.

Skitty isn't the mislynch of the day any longer, and I think that was probably obvious enough to the scumteam when I backed off. BRO continues to attack you, he continues to WK a lot of the other big scumspects of the day (TD comes to mind), which means his scum motivation in doing what he's doing now is... trying to make something that used to be viable but isn't going to happen happen and poking a dragon for no good reason?

[The Will of Heaven]

This feels like I'm talking to Ray. I don't really know Dram, but Ray thinks he's town and I'm taking his word for it.

I agree Dram is town too! One think that the "the third party hunting = scum" thing tends to miss is that scum doing this are usually hiding behind a protown front where their argument can't really be picked on too much, but dram isn't really doing that at all. There are quotes of his like his "Survivor is

SIGNIFICANTLY

more antitown than SK" quote where he's bucking general thread sentiment pretty hard and being an absolute dick about it, which feels like something town is less likely to do than scum because the negative attention gained from it is in no way worth an increased possibility of a survivor lynch.

To me, giving out a reads list is like laying out the borders of a jigsaw puzzle. You gotta start somewhere before you can figure out how all the pieces fit. Except sometimes the manufacturer decides to split the puzzle into installments and you gotta wait a few days for each new batch of missing pieces before you can finish the puzzle.

See, I know I shouldn't townread something like this, but... I still do

I think he should be the last person you suspect just based on his reaction to the Skitty wagon.

Why is this? If Pie was looking for something genuine to respond to in order to fake his usual conviction, white-knighting a completely idiotic lynch where people are missing out on a lot of obvious shit and he can't be anything more than vague when defending without being anti-town seems like a fine place to start.

Tammy is the queen of getting over defensive!

pedit: I think it's the same reason as to why I took aggro early in AoT; someone was under pressure that they didn't want under pressure (initially I thought it was Shos and Skitty, now I'm thinking Shos and maybe someone else), so they cut in and tried to relieve that pressure by being a large presence.

I don't think that shos was under enough pressure at that point to prompt Pie into taking defensive front and center. In fact, I don't think anyone was under enough pressure at that point (when Skitty wagon dropped, there was sort of a huge vacuum of good suspects unless you think it's the TD wagon which wasn't even happening when pie stepped it up), so this point isn't very good.

The only benign survivor is a dead survivor.

you sound like a racist dram

I'm guessing Notty hasn't explained anything to Goat because Goat's still voting Notty.

Notty said that he did. Goat lost a significant amount of lynch fervor which seems to also suggest that he did. I would like a bigger Goat presence in thread though, especially considering how strong my townread on him from before was.

Bulbazak's #1558 has a lot of things I disagree with that I'd like to get into later.

[The Will of Heaven]

Bro why is bulba town?

The abrasiveness and the consistency in his logic comes from a really town place. From a scum-POV, he's had plenty of chances to pivot on positions in a way that would help him produce less friction around himself, and I know he's capable of doing that effectively from Marvel Avengers Alliance.

He doesn't seem to be reanalyzing on a lot of things in thread and a lot of his reads seem to be based on conditions being met that don't really matter at all (i.e. Goat read being based on Skitty flipping neighbor OR Goat claiming Sonic).

[The Will of Heaven]

Bro why is bulba town?

The abrasiveness and the consistency in his logic comes from a really town place. From a scum-POV, he's had plenty of chances to pivot on positions in a way that would help him produce less friction around himself, and I know he's capable of doing that effectively from Marvel Avengers Alliance.

He doesn't seem to be reanalyzing on a lot of things in thread and a lot of his reads seem to be based on conditions being met that don't really matter at all (i.e. Goat read being based on Skitty flipping neighbor OR Goat claiming Sonic).

I think he might think Goat and Skitty are scum together claiming neighbors?

Why would Goat's flavor claim change that at all?

[The Will of Heaven]

now, I see what you're saying about how no one listened to him, but that wasn't what I said to him. what I was saying was that in a vacuum his Mala case was more structurally sound than his shos case in this game; it didn't have anything to do with how it was received, so I have no idea what the thought process behind this really was.

Why was his Mala case more structurally sound than his shos case in this game? How people receive arguments is a very large factor in how "good" they are: if an argument gets the entire town to lynch who you want them to lynch, then it's a good argument. If no one lynches who you want them to lynch after presenting your argument, it's a bad argument. There is a part of that being "am I right" and a smaller part of that being "am I right for the wrong reasons" but the main reason and argument is presented to persuade. So I think it's a strange argument to present that BRO's case in Wicked was stronger than his case here, considering no one really listened to it whatsoever unless you have reasons for saying that I'm just not seeing. Like, you could say it included more followup, but BRO wasn't as in love with his shos argument as he was in his Mala argument and ended up dropping it somewhere down the road.

I look is the general amount of specious arguments - which, even if I ignore the one about shos, there's still a lot of.

What are the other ones you're referring to?

[The Will of Heaven]

Usually neighbors have some sort of flavor relevance. It's a pretty bad thing to go off of in a bastard game, but people use heuristics in irrelevant places all the time.

Sonic and Pacman...?

[The Will of Heaven]

conflates strength of analytics and strength of persuasion.

Why is this scummy?

[The Will of Heaven]

Especially while he's equating ability as a town player to amount of people listening to him in this game at the same time.

[The Will of Heaven]

Why would Skitty be dead...?

[The Will of Heaven]

I mean maybe I'm behind as hell and Skitty did some things I haven't seen yet but the answer to your question seems fairly obvious :/

[The Will of Heaven]

Dramonic behaving strangely (he is unusually active otherwise a giant lurk sack which sucks either way)

I think he's probably more active than usual because he's pushing a lynch which he believes is objectively 100% the best lynch possible and people are being idiots and not listening to him. This doesn't happen when he's focusing on developing normal scumreads.

Bulb was a really early read that we're currently reconsidering. it was based entirely off his early GGG push ._.

What do you think of the Bulb point that I brought up to BRO earlier?

Sure, bulba standards, how is he different than scum-bulba?

Scum bulba is townread by everyone

I don't necessarily agree with this, despite being owned to shit by scum-Bulba in the past.
Thor and I caught him out pretty immediately in Playing Card Mafia, iirc and I also don't think that "getting attention = town, not getting attention = scum" is a good way to approach a read on someone.

You're saying yourself everyone townreads bulba when he's scum. Then you tell me he's town because gut. Do you not understand these two don't go together?

i dont know what the heck ms is on about half the time
i just let him be him
but i like to consider myself the slightly more logical head
so as you're a logical player i expect you to listen to me more than him

I think the problem is you're the logical player reaching out to the illogical head: I have feelings that Bulba is scum based on what he's put in thread so far and I'm gonna make a nice case on him when I'm done catching up.

ArcAngel after her case on Bulba looks really really really really really town.

[The Will of Heaven]

Because he's using it to contribute to an argument about my proficiency as a player in a way to paint me in a negative light.

But he's made this mistake places in this game where he has no scum-motivation to as well as in different games so I don't really think he's intentionally making a mistake here to push a scum agenda.

Remember that they started the push on me when there was a lot of other stuff going on. I'd just attacked Shos, GGG and Skitty were both under attack as well. Now, a lot of ink is being spilled talking about me in a way that has distracted substantially from Shos - fuck, nobody's talking about him anymore.

I see your point, but I see a lot of genuineness in Pie's post that and the way he's been pushing you as significantly less likely than him bringing up a case on you and pushing it through.

[The Will of Heaven]

I'm guessing Notty hasn't explained anything to Goat because Goat's still voting Notty.

Correct. With the exception of one "I'm busy, I'll post tomorrow" post from NS post over 24 hours ago on our neighbor board, the entire hydra has disappeared. That's not making me feel warm and fuzzy; that's making me feel "are they just lurking and hoping everyone will find something bright and shiny and wander off?"

I ain't movin. Goats are stubborn that way.

NS told me in thread that he explained everything, including his full claim, to you.
This isn't true?

[The Will of Heaven]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: bulba

everyone and their mother is scumreading Tiph, no thanks. let's do this instead

<.<
This is a shitty reason not to vote Tiph which I don't really care about since I wasn't really scumreading him anyways? But it's still a bad reason for the same reason the Bulba defense I've seen so far is bad.

on the other hand, bulba's townread is completely unexplained and looks like a wk.

i seriously
dont understand what the fuck
bulba would gain from WK'ing a town tiph of all people

Bulbascum, if he WKs a town Tiph successfully, gains an ally the scumteam probably wasn't going to kill which means he can get Tiph to vote with him late game against whoever the fuck he wants Tiph to vote.

In addition to the soft claim, I am town.

I'm reading you as softclaiming something you should never softclaim ever. I'm going to continue catching up so I'm not just playing this game forever, then I'm going to make sure you aren't softclaiming what I think you are.

[The Will of Heaven]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: bulba

everyone and their mother is scumreading Tiph, no thanks. let's do this instead

<.<
This is a shitty reason not to vote Tiph which I don't really care about since I wasn't really scumreading him anyways? But it's still a bad reason for the same reason the Bulba defense I've seen so far is bad.

on the other hand, bulba's townread is completely unexplained and looks like a wk.

i seriously
dont understand what the fuck
bulba would gain from WK'ing a town tiph of all people

Bulbascum, if he WKs a town Tiph successfully, gains an ally the scumteam probably wasn't going to kill which means he can get Tiph to vote with him late game against whoever the fuck he wants Tiph to vote.

In addition to the soft claim, I am town.

I'm reading you as softclaiming something you should never softclaim ever. I'm going to continue catching up so I'm not just playing this game forever, then I'm going to make sure you aren't softclaiming what I think you are.

[The Will of Heaven]

Myself. I am declaring it anti-town to continue 1v1s due to the negative impact it has on scumhunting for town. This is completely serious. Continued posting is tantamount to a scum claim for making town's job extra convoluted.

That's nice.

[The Will of Heaven]

oh lol espeonage is a vanilla townie getting confused about flavor explanation for espeonage being a vanilla townie

[The Will of Heaven]

Why is this what you take issue with when there are naked reads all over the place?

You are being choosy and that ain't a townie trait.

i lost what you were talking about a while ago, sorry

[The Will of Heaven]

2. Holding on to a scum read very tight is inidicitive of a reluctance to be helpful to town. For an example of the right thing to do is my setting aside my strongest scum read because the gain is bigger if I do so. Town should stay objective.

Holding onto a scumread very tight is indicative of Wisdom playing.

he thinks he should be sheeped bc he's more often than not right

and he still never gave a solid logical reason for the sudden jump on bulba and sudden whiteknight of tiph/ggg

while at the same time criticizing sonic and i for using gut reads

Bolded are personality traits over scum traits unless you'd like to argue otherwise.
We have both been middling/scumreading Bulba for a large amount of time, his recent whiteknight of tiph and GGG comes from being uncomfortable with who's been scumreading them/not thinking buddies would bus the shit out of him Day 1.

Nacho is missing... Like in Taylor swift

And wisdom was acting weird in our 1v1

He might be town or might be a scum secretly

I had to work long days yesterday/the day before that, which is why I wasn't around for two days.
How does that at all equate to me disappearing in Taylor Swift, especially considering the large majority of our early game content (which you didn't comment on) has been me?

I blitzed the last few pages of my catchup because I'm running out of time and I think my comments re: certain opinions will be much more beneficial than bacon stripes about the entire game, although I'd like to give both. Shos, why didn't you respond to my Skitty question?

[The Will of Heaven]

Placation. She wants me off her back, even though I'm not scumreading her at this point.

This is a scumread by Bulba on AA saying that she's trying to placate him and being overdefensive. AA being overdefensive is not a scumtell: Bulba has played with her and is aware of this fact. Pushing it despite that is scummy.

This is fake and is meant to look like she's town asking questions. However, notice how the tone doesn't feel natural.

He calls her out for a fake sounding tone, which really isn't a case based on much, and yet it dominates a larger majority of the case on her than it should: this is especially strange when Bulbazak in general is a very logical entity (which explains why he does as well as he does as scum, he's free to pick apart cases where he sees fit and has the know-how to put the passion behind them) and doesn't generally build his focus around tone sounding fake.

Also, I'm not going to let AA9-scum skate by just because she's overdefensive as town. Her response was all wrong, Wisdom.

This doesn't make sense. His case on her is for being overdefensive, he recognizes she's overdefensive, he continues the case because "her response was all wrong"? Again, not the type of thing that makes sense for normal Bulbazak.

If I had to choose between which 2 survivor claims I believe, it'd be Major.

I think this reaction to the survivor counterclaim is weird as shit and generally unnatural. There were some people (ooba) who believed both claims because MM obviously wasn't lying and they didn't think Skitty looked bad. This is fine, this is a reaction that makes sense. There are some people who developed scum, not-survivor reads on Skitty based on the counterclaim. This is also fine, also a reaction that made sense. There are still more people who didn't give a shit and thought both should die either way. Still fine, still making sense. This reaction from Bulbazak holds him in a place where he goes "oh I believe both survivor claims but if I didn't believe one it would be Skitty" which shows that he's not actually updating reads based on new information: it reads like he knew that Skitty wasn't scum because they weren't on his scumteam but also saw that the chance for wagonning them might have come up later so he's laying foundation for a scumread there.

It was because I felt that scum would be jumping on Skitty for the Survivor claim, sensing an easy lynch opportunity. I became less gung-ho about it after more people kept piling on, and it was apparent that they weren't all scum

This is Bulba stating that he actually believed that only scum would attack Skitty, which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and more a sign of him bucking against what was a larger anti-Survivor sentiment than he initially predicted there would be.

Useless post is useless, especially when everything in it has been stated multiple times in better and more natural ways.

Just a small note of Bulbazak making yet another "oh it's fake!" post without actually making any sort of point.

This is a scummy push and pretty effortless. AA9 spreads suspicion while taking no effort to check if my absence is exclusive to this game, and thus, alignment indicative.

This point states that AA is scum because she didn't check his onsite activity before accusing him of lurking...?
This is a bad point.

I'm not quite on board with that. I'd need to see the Skitty-neighbor flip first.

I talked about what's wrong with this already.
But, additional points: he thinks that Skitty is scum because they claimed not being neighbors with Goat (aka they counterclaimed Goat's initial claim). Yet he doesn't believe Goat is town until Goat claims flavor but does believe Skitty is scum? Something seriously doesn't mesh at all.

For trying to get me off her back after I voiced suspicion of her Skitty vote, but then decided that I was probably way off base with all my Skitty-vote suspicions. Her appeasement at that point was out of place and not necessary. AA9 scum wouldn't have cared or responded to me in that manner. Her following reaction to UT was also bad and was meant to make her look town without putting in much effort ("UT, why would you claim something like that?"). It's a fake question and wholly unnecessary, kinda like your response to the Skitty survivor claim.

This is a case created on page, what, 7? Being carried out to Post #2000. >.>

She's also been fake scumhunting and diverting attention away from her with either OMGUS or AtE. True, I normally don't expect much from AA9, but I expect more than the BS reasoning she's been providing. In fact, as I've pointed out several times, her reasoning is blatantly false, which anyone would see if they would actually read her posts. When a player is making things up out of thin air (And I mean seriously making things up, as in the basis of the accusations don't appear anywhere in the posts she's quoting or responding to.), than that player is definitely not playing towards a town wincon.

OMGUS + AtE is that whole overdefensive bit that Bulb showed he was aware of before, and yet he continues to attack it. He hasn't shown anywhere where her reasoning is false, but saying "oh her reasoning is false and I have demonstrated as much several times" sure does sound great!, and he hasn't shown where AA has been making anything up at all.

Anyone who is falling for this AtE should feel ashamed of themselves.

This is manipulative as hell: he's trying to say that anyone not scumreading AA for the playstyle we are ALL FAMILIAR WITH should feel stupid aka trying to add legitimacy to his push by saying anyone who disagrees with it just doesn't understand it. This also doesn't make sense from a town-Bulbazak because I have never ever seen him post something as arrogant as this.

Yes, I know that AA9 has a tendency to OMGUS and AtE, but she also actually responds to her detractors and is more accurate with her accusations.

This is 1) a bad attempt as misrepping her meta, and 2) a point that is completely wrong.
What the hell is AA doing but responding to him after her giant case wall against him? He's almost pretending that she's been ignoring him completely and that is blatantly false.

I've explained this already. I believed that scum would be trying to hide on PL wagons, and it would be easier to spot scum jumping on the Skitty wagon than the UT wagon, since there was a large town motivation to lynch UT, but not Skitty.

I gave up on this theory when you joined the wagon.

Re: the bolded: since when? I have a quote from you in this very wall of you saying you gave up the theory because too many people jumped on Skitty for them to be all scum.

Solid scumposting based on BS reasoning and nitpicking. Might still be scum with AA9, but this does make me doubt my read a little.

This reads like horrible progression: Bulbazak has built his entire game around AA9-scum, but then he starts to doubt AA9-scum because GGG says that he likes her case? No, this is Bulbazak realizing that he's getting a lot of deserved shit for a bad AA9 case and then trying to back off as a result.

[The Will of Heaven]

So, tl;dr of above case:

I think Bulbazak is scum because all of his contributions have centered around his bad push on AA9 and scumhunting off the Skitty wagon, but the way he went about scumhunting the Skitty wagon didn't make any sort of sense. I think he's putting extra emphasis on things like "gut reads" that he wouldn't normally because it's easy to say despite being obvious case padding. I think the gaps in his logic are alignment-indicative because of Bulbazak's time-constraints: it's still more effort to create bullshit pushes as scum than it is as town (it's also easier to react to people and there are certain inconsistencies that basically just don't make sense if they are coming from Bulbazak-town.

As for specifics of certain elements of that case:

Spoiler: Why AA9 case is bad

1) He's pushing that AA9 being overdefensive is a scumtell despite the fact that AA9 is overdefensive is a part of her playstyle and that's a well-known fact Bulbazak himself is aware of. Places where he shows he's aware of AA9 = overdefensive is 118 and 2069

2) He's been pushing the same reasoning for her being scum than he hasn't added significant content since PAGE FOUR. For proof of this, his case on Page 4 is here and the updated case here. You'll notice the new reasons he added were "fake scumhunting" (no specifics), and she "made things up" (no specifics). He says he's demonstrated where she's been making stuff up, but if you ISO him yourself, you'll notice all he's done nothing of the sort at all.

3) Again, this is the centerpiece of his play this game. This is the only significant contribution he's made in all his posts since the beginning of the game. If Bulbazak was town, I'd expect he would believe very, very strongly in his case, especially considering natural tunneling tendencies. He begins to doubt his case in 2075 because GGG agrees with AA9's case, which to me tells me he didn't have any sort of confidence in his case to begin with. This doesn't mesh with in-game posting, but it does mesh with scum-Bulbazak becoming increasingly uncomfortable pushing an obviously town AA9.

4) I can't quote this in a small piece obviously, but him saying that he had proved AA9's reasoning incorrect and demonstrated where she was blatantly false several times is scummy as fuck when he did nothing of the sort.

Spoiler: Why his Skitty-related scumhunting makes no sense

1)

It was because I felt that scum would be jumping on Skitty for the Survivor claim, sensing an easy lynch opportunity. I became less gung-ho about it after more people kept piling on, and it was apparent that they weren't all scum.

I believed that scum would be trying to hide on PL wagons, and it would be easier to spot scum jumping on the Skitty wagon than the UT wagon, since there was a large town motivation to lynch UT, but not Skitty. I gave up on this theory when you joined the wagon.

There are obvious, obvious flaws in both of these pieces of reasoning that are supposed to explain why he approached the Skitty wagon the way he did. The flaw with the first one is that believing that only scum would join the Skitty wagon is hilariously naive at best and if going for an "easy lynch opportunity", there was no reason not to just lynch UT. The flaw with the second one is that his entire argument for why AA9 started interacting with UT in the first place is to placate him? Thus it makes no sense for him to give up on said theory just because AA joined the UT wagon. It also doesn't really mesh with his reasoning that town wouldn't jump on Skitty wagon that he gave earlier (scum trying to hide on PL wagon(s)) and it also doesn't make sense that he assumed scum wouldn't jump on the UT wagon just because there was town motivation to do so.

2)

sonic says goat is town

I'm not quite on board with that. I'd need to see the Skitty-neighbor flip first.

Also, if anyone can give me an explanation why Sonic (the character, not the hydra playing) would be neighbors with Pacman, I'd like to hear it.

Nevermind. I'm on board.

This makes absolutely no sense at all. For context, Bulbazak shifted from Skitty = survivor to Skitty = scum when Skitty counterclaimed being neighbors with Goat. The only way that this makes sense is if he thinks they are scum together (which BRO pointed out), but if that is the case, it makes no sense for him to drop that completely when Goat claimed his flavor.

[The Will of Heaven]

I don't want to post too many other things right now because I feel I just pegged the living hell out of Bulbazak and care about people commenting on this instead of anything else at all, but I also want to say one last thing before I go:

Brian may have lost the feeling, but in all honesty... Both he and I have been leery of the slot but felt that there was no support for it (this is part of the "later game day" conversation I wanted, esp) with the wall of blades of the belle / memtal sonic / arcangel

What wall of blades are you referring to, exactly?
And also why would you call me a townread and mostly ignore me when you got a chance to post instead of interact with me in order to figure out where my thoughts were coming from or even express uneasiness of me in the first place? You've seen me play as scum plenty of times before and you know it doesn't fit into my MO to shoot people who suspect me even a tiny little bit over other types of threats vs. using kills to frame and so it doesn't make sense for you to lie about your read on me when it's not likely to get you shot and when Brian has already expressed his uneasiness on our slot.

[The Will of Heaven]

however i still feel like the direction they are taking is absolute shit

Why is that?

[The Will of Heaven]

I was sort of hoping the giant Bulba case would inspire a better nature of working together than Wisdom's interaction earlier.

[The Will of Heaven]

nacho you should consider keeping wisdom under your control

hahahahahahahaha

[The Will of Heaven]

i feel like approaching bulba from a logical point of view is a fast track to reading him wrong
because logically he doesn't sound great to me
but the tone behind his posts is genuine

This is usually how I approach reading Bulba and it's served me fine in the recent past. I also disagree that he doesn't normally logically make sense.
Why doesn't it work here?

making a case with logical holes is not a scumtell btw
because
i cant do it for shit as town either
and a whole lot of other people cant as well

I don't think making a case with logical holes is a scumtell is bad. I think making a horrible case on someone who could be an easy mislynch is scummy. I think it is scummy when you know better. It is scummy when you center your game around majority consensus and your reasons for doing so make absolutely no sense.

[The Will of Heaven]

AA9 and deathnote are on bulba, he is not scum, end of story.

Neither of these are scum.

[The Will of Heaven]

you really think arc in this game is an easy mislynch

I think arc is not an easy mislynch in this game.
I think Arc gets mislynched a lot in games where she really shouldn't be because people think she sounds fake and that her logic is bad.

why dont you jump back on tiph then

I don't have a particularly large scumread on tiph and I do have a big scumread on Bulba.

[The Will of Heaven]

hey nacho what would it take for you to blindly follow me on that bulba read
do you want a slice of cheesecake i have cheesecake waiting in the fridge for you?

If it's a case of my heart against your heart, my heart will probably win.
If Bulba comes in thread and plays somewhat townily in response to my case on him, I will probably back off.

[The Will of Heaven]

i really dont understand how the same faults could be applied to two players yet you excuse one for it but not the other
if bulba's scum for those reasons then tiph is too

You ignore that 1) I haven't read tiph as deeply as I've read bulb and 2) the case is deeper than "look at these logical holes!". I'm not really that willing to engage with you two if all you have for me is "we're right, you're wrong and your push is horrible": if that's the case, let things happen and I'll let you know if I'm more willing to budge then.

[The Will of Heaven]

I don't think DN is scum. However I need to stay useful so

Unvote, Vote: DeathNote

[The Will of Heaven]

[The Will of Heaven]

hey nacho what would it take for you to blindly follow me on that bulba read
do you want a slice of cheesecake i have cheesecake waiting in the fridge for you?

If it's a case of my heart against your heart, my heart will probably win.
If Bulba comes in thread and plays somewhat townily in response to my case on him, I will probably back off.

ffs bulba is town go put your vote somewhere useful like deathnote or ggg

I have my vote in a useful place. You can't show why Bulba is town, and you haven't really put to much effort into dressing case concerns at all except for going that I should be voting Bulba over TD if I thought logical holes were scummy which is an oversimplication of my case that shows you don't really care about reading it. You want me to work with you? Meet me halfway.

smartass, use your IC if you have it

You didn't townread that post at all?

[The Will of Heaven]

even if this is true, I still think that "xxx is too strong of a player; yyy wouldn't push them if they were scum" is generally a weak assumption to make and on top of that it's never held up for me in practice. for a (somewhat weak) example of this, in playing cards mafia I thought Desp was lining me up to be the LYLO mislynch bc his case on me was really obviously bullshit, and then at some point I started second guessing it thinking that it didn't actually make sense that he would try to get me lynched in LYLO for essentially this reason, which ofc was wrong.

Funny you bring up Desperado: I was thinking earlier today that it was possible I was projecting some of my scum-tendencies onto BRO's own: it usually seems easier to me to protect/not bother strong town players since there's very very rarely any reason to do it unless you know that you're going to get townread because you do it, but I think Desperado/BRO are the types of players who would push a strong player despite it being dumb/suicidal as a sort of a high risk/high reward play and also as a sort of arrogant play. I seem to remember BRO pushing AA9 with a fake guilty to see if he could get her lynched in IN when we pushed him to fake guilty someone who wouldn't obviously town so hard, but he didn't mind the added risk because he was fairly confident we had the game wrapped up. Will check out AoT later, I guess it was only a matter of time before I was forced to read it.

[The Will of Heaven]

The thing I love most about being town is that I don't feel as obligated to defend myself so either you guys believe me or you don't and push a wasteful lynch.

So I haven't played much with DeathNote in person but I've played a lot with him in f2f and he's always had this tendency of playing more scared as scum than he does as town, similar to the way dramonic's meta tends to trend towards much less abrasive as scum and much more abrasive as town. I think this quote pretty much exemplifies his mindset perfectly as town: he's afraid of letting down his scumbuddies as scum and generally doesn't make risky moves or attempt to bring attention to himself that much. I won't even get into the soft-claim in this case but it was town as fuck and it shouldn't be ignored.

Don't post so fast... proofreading is your friend. Also, whine more. Your claim does nothing for anybody right now and I have no idea why you even bothered.

This is that aggressive as shit DeathNote tone that I know and I love. This type of aggressive tone does nothing but make him enemies: maybe maybe it could serve as soft distancing from a scumbuddy, but that doesn't seem like a very likely scenario to me at all because ZZZX's claim was fairly town anyways.

The skit debate seems like a hot topic right now which makes sense I guess. That slot is the target for todays lynch. I am too simple to care about the reasonings why Skit did what he (they) did or who is scum with them or how should we kill them, yada yada. I just know that Skitty is probably a survivor, maybe scum but definitely not town. I wouldn't mind using my lynch on that.

I thought this was a fairly town mindset and it meshes well with his earlier "sorry" post to Skitty when he initially voted them. I like that consistently, across the board, DN has placed his vote pretty readily wherever he feels it has the most town utility (UT initially, defused arguments for why we shouldn't lynch UT pretty consistently (((loved his defense against Wisdom of why UT wasn't scumhunting at all))), then Skitty when the Survivor bit came up). His intent is very clear and very straight forward, but he doesn't mind stepping on toes in the meantime (response to Wisdom/Somnic's earlier interaction was "don't give a shit, skimmed") which I liked a lot.

Deathnote is scum as well

Can I include that in your list of reads?

look at deathnote trying to encourage my 1v1 with ms further

No I just don't like your attitude and would love to see you lose.

This pair of posts need to be more front and center in the DN discussion because they are incredibly incredibly incredibly town. It also meshes very well with DN's stated attitude earlier of liking town more because he has to worry about defending himself less "so you guys either believe me or push a wasteful lynch", which tells me he enjoys using his town flip/his status as town as a middle finger to others. This is the epitome of that attitude and I seriously can't see DN faking something like this ever, which knocks him up to one of my strongest townreads.

This is the first and last time I will defend myself but I feel confident enough that you guys won't be silly enough to push this further.

This sort of conviction additionally

screams

town, would be ridiculously surprised/impressed if DN flipped scum.

[The Will of Heaven]

I also think you misread the fact that I didn't really mind getting lynched at that point because you/muffin could bus for towncred+it removed ferry/cabd from the game.

But you agree with the conclusion that you attacking pie as scum is not something you'd be afraid of, right?

[The Will of Heaven]

most of the logic behind anything BRO said in response to me is structurally incorrect (which I think we agree on). and I think most town players (especially an ultra-logical one like him - this is not meta, but I do think it more strongly applies to him for this reason) would realize this and be able to do better. instead we get this weak-ass "johou is scum" for apparently pushing a bad meta case, despite it not being meta and which he continues to push despite being told it wasn't meta.

I think this fits way more in line with scum needing an easy way out of pressure as opposed to any kind of town behavior I can think of.

So the thing about BRO's argument against you and BRO's argument in general is that I find BRO tends to be very ultra-logical and generally his analysis makes sense, but it doesn't make sense to me and looks like a shitty argument until he communicates it in a way that I understand because the way he packages and presents his arguments usually doesn't present his intent too well. Example: until Post #2118, I literally didn't understand what BRO was going on in pushing you at all. But pushing you as scum because you were trying to puff up and draw aggro to protect weaker scumbuddies: that makes sense to me and shows that his arguments are deeper than I initially take them for. I thought his case in Wicked was hilariously bad until the day started progressing and more hints of how he got to where he ended up dropped in thread. I thought his shos case sucks on a surface level but there are good points behind it that actually make shos a scumsuspect of mine. I do strongly disagree with the bolded, though: I don't think that the best scumhunting BRO-scum can come up with is a half-assed case on you or even a push on you in general. This is highly likely to be multiball or cultiball or something like that thanks to the nature of bastard games and UT's flip, thus BRO-scum definitely has other avenues and other people to push as scum and probably type up a half-convincing case on: all of the lynchbait candidates in this game aren't scum and I'm sure BRO-scum could bullshit a push on literally any of them. So if you think the motivation of BRO-scum in pushing you is simply because he couldn't find anything better, I strongly disagree. If you think it's because he needed to discredit you after your attack on him, that makes a considerably larger amount of sense but I wonder what his long game is: is he looking to mislynch you? Why? Why doesn't he just defend from you today and nightkill you when he gets the chance?

BRO: "this is gonna be like Mala all over again", aka affirming his case on Mala was good.

...or that he's going to push a case that no one's going to listen to and will ultimately both be right and end with his death. It doesn't necessarily mean his case on Mala was good.

more recently, the way he's WK'ing the TD wagon.

I forgot exactly how he did this, will check in on that soon.

his recent response to me was also bad. he's pushing that I'm pulling a mastin in that I keep repeating smth that's not true in order to get people to accept it as fact, when what I'm saying is true, and he should really be aware of this. nor does he explain _why_ what I said isn't true. (that argument seems to describe what he's doing really well, actually)

I don't think assuming town will agree with a case on them ever/be reasonable in responding to it is a good assumption. He hasn't really thoroughly responded to your case in any way whatsoever, though.

I still haven't seen what I wanted to see from him on that front in terms of any kind of thoughtful push that shows he's trying to figure out the game

I agree with this.

the other thing I wanted to point out (although I haven't looked much into this) is that BRO and Bulba are both defending each other. I notice you disagreed with BRO's town read on Bulba from earlier. so I would also look at BRO if Bulba does flip scum here

This is a part of why I feel I'm probably much more open to BRO-scum than I was before: I feel like if Bulba-BRO were a scumteam here, BRO would certainly try to soften my push on Bulba since I've put as much effort as I have talking with you about your case and defending him.

[The Will of Heaven]

Usually neighbors have some sort of flavor relevance. It's a pretty bad thing to go off of in a bastard game, but people use heuristics in irrelevant places all the time.

Sonic and Pacman...?

I'd still like a response to this as well.

[The Will of Heaven]

1. a huge lack of scumhunting compared to setup spec, weak lines of questioning that don't actually lead anywhere, or anything else;
2. consistent attempts to appeal to other players;
3. the way he's handling the shos/Skitty push;
4. a large amount of general specious argumentation;
5. the fact he's demonstrated a tendency to play differently than this as town.

Here's the tl;dr of your argument.

Outside of #3, none of these points matter without #5. There are players who focus on setup spec and don't have the deepest scum hunting early (god knows I basically can only use associative tells on almost all players). There are players who focus more on working with others than driving their own agenda (you sure as hell would never call NS scum for appealing to Nacho/mollie/etc). There are players who make pedantic arguments (lol Wisdom). Not sure if pedantic is the right word, but specious sure as fuck isn't (and your spamming of it reminds me again of mastin-scum "say this thing over and over again until people believe it").

So your arguments about why I'm scum are all ultimately contingent on #5. That makes it a meta case. It also makes it a meta case that doesn't make sense when the points you bring up are all points that periodically occur in my town game based on the gamestate.

A huge lack of scumhunting compared to setup speculation has scum motivation because it allows scum to post without giving away alignment-relevant information. Scumhunting is something that scum are less likely to do well as opposed to town because a town's motivation to post is to catch and kill scum, and scumhunting is the primary method of moving towards this purpose. This is a general tell. This tell does not need meta in order to make it valid.

Consistent attempts to appeal to other players is scummy because it gains you friends, and friends are less likely to lynch you. This has more scum motivation than town motivation again because scum's primary motivation is to survive while town's primary motivation is to hunt and kill scum. Still doesn't need meta to make it valid.

Shallow arguments show scum motivation because scum are, in general, expected to produce something. The shallower an argument is, the easier it is to fake while the deeper an argument is, the harder it is to fake. Because a town's every moment should be guided by finding and killing scum, their strongest moments should be in their arguments and in their searching as opposed to everything else: weak searching implies primary motivation being centered around something else.

All of those things can stand on their own. Adding meta to these points is important since they are all general scum trends and tailoring them specifically to a player can make these things stronger or weaker: that doesn't mean that making a case based on these points is meta and it sure as hell doesn't mean they need meta to stand.

[The Will of Heaven]

you called my case "meta" (1091) ever since I first posted my case (936). there is nothing in the case that relates to meta, save for the end where I point out you can do a _lot_ better than this as town - and that was in no way the "crux" of my case. everything else was based on motivation and is valid even without comparing it to anything.

It actually is.

Because what you posted about me could have been said for literally anyone else sans like 5 players.

Don't think this matters at all? If two players do something scummy, you can choose one over the other for things other than meta.
There are also things in those three points (a large lack of scumhunting, a large amount of specious argumentation) that suggest different magnitudes and differentiate you from other players.

[The Will of Heaven]

Also, last thing to BRO:

What do you think of Bulbazak saying that he demonstrated time and time again why what AA9 was saying was blatantly false when he'd done literally nothing of that sort before that point in his ISO?

[The Will of Heaven]

Usually neighbors have some sort of flavor relevance. It's a pretty bad thing to go off of in a bastard game, but people use heuristics in irrelevant places all the time.

Sonic and Pacman...?

I'd still like a response to this as well.

I'm saying that Bulba may have thought the neighbors thing was bullshit b/c the characters don't have a connection, despite that being a bad heuristic to go off of in a bastard game.

It was the Sonic/Pacman claim that made Bulba believe they were more likely to be neighbors, not less.

[The Will of Heaven]

Nothing new has happened, really.

What do you think of the Bulbazak case? It is fantastically devoid of meta!

[The Will of Heaven]

I should be the one asking you why you never responded to this

Having a strong townread on AA9 independently of any Bulbazak stuff + Bulbazak's case on AA9 being absolutely horrible (I would expect it to be better if she was actually scum and he knew it) makes me doubt this scenario very heavily.

What do you think of the DN town case? I know there are some meta aspects of it, but I find the softclaim but especially the #1887 and #1895 combo town as shit regardless of who is actually posting them.

[The Will of Heaven]

Same question about DN towncase to you as well, shos.

[The Will of Heaven]

Deathnote is scum as well

Can I include that in your list of reads?

look at deathnote trying to encourage my 1v1 with ms further

No I just don't like your attitude and would love to see you lose.

This pair of posts need to be more front and center in the DN discussion because they are incredibly incredibly incredibly town. It also meshes very well with DN's stated attitude earlier of liking town more because he has to worry about defending himself less "so you guys either believe me or push a wasteful lynch", which tells me he enjoys using his town flip/his status as town as a middle finger to others. This is the epitome of that attitude and I seriously can't see DN faking something like this ever, which knocks him up to one of my strongest townreads.

These two posts? It doesn't seem like "freaking out", considering Wisdom adding DN to list of suspects was an afterthought and I think the tone lines up much more strongly with defiant and annoyed as opposed to panicking.

[The Will of Heaven]

Ah. What do you think of those?

[The Will of Heaven]

seriously though, it's getting really annoying.

Someone of unconfirmed alignment using meta arguments to say why someone else of unconfirmed alignment is scum/is town/is a meat-popsicle-jester-vig-cop means essentially nothing to me. I'm not going to read a huge backlog of games to independently verify the claimed meta and

even if I did

I don't think meta is a very strong scumhunting tool anyway because it can be changed and manipulated the second the person is aware of it.

I would have just let this be and chalked it up to differences in playstyle but now this is twoh, bro, piegami, mollie, and probably other people who I'm forgetting doing this, all of whom are pretty loud voices in the game and it's getting way out of hand.

Other than this I don't really have anything new to say. Nothing new has happened, really. I've given up on trying to sort out piegami/bro clusterfuck for now, I want to take another look at TWOH and mental isos but the length of them is daunting me, my hydra partner hasn't done pretty much anything to contribute in 3-4 days, and I'm still here more out of stubbornness not to replace out of another game than an actual desire to play alone. Sooo yeah.

/frustrationpost

Also, just out of curiosity, whose post is this?

[The Will of Heaven]

also give up

I glanced over your interactions point and still disagree but see why you think the way you do and feel better about you as a result. I'm also sorry for missing your post: I also skimmed the fuck out of the Wisdom/Metal Om dickwaving contest and missed your post completely

[The Will of Heaven]

hai im back and just finished skimming the ~20 pages you made without me

things:

- Bulba is still scum
- DN is town and people that jumped on his wagon need looking into
- Espeonage is prolly town, people often react to my playstyle this way in their first game with me and they're usually town
- Om/MS on the other hand are terrible for calling me possible scum/weird/whatever else they called me when they should know better this is my playstyle. Maybe I should start doubting my townread on them.

moar people need to vote bulba

~Wis

[The Will of Heaven]

worthless doesn't equal scum

[The Will of Heaven]

worthless doesn't equal scum

TD is #2 in my scum list but i am against his lynch today (Only he has power to change my mid, if he pisses me off more.. I will not mind lynching him today).
But my biggest concern for the day is Bulba. He is happily lurking and om & metal have become his official attorney's.

People pissing you off doesn't mean you should be lynching them though

fuck sorry

[The Will of Heaven]

wgeurts has been replaced by espionage

[The Will of Heaven]

and the first three aren't in prod range (72 hours)

[The Will of Heaven]

Sure, bulba standards, how is he different than scum-bulba?

Scum bulba is townread by everyone

imo you're getting pissed off because he's calling you scum

[The Will of Heaven]

Sure, bulba standards, how is he different than scum-bulba?

Scum bulba is townread by everyone

ignore that quote

[The Will of Heaven]

lol wtf

[The Will of Heaven]

uh huh first I hear of this

[The Will of Heaven]

calling bulba town isn't a scumtell, just a failure at reading bulba

[The Will of Heaven]

this is exactly the grounds we need to call you terrible at this game over and over again

why?
did you or did you not agree with espeonage I might be scum? Did you or did you not wagon me with him? All while you know full well this is town-me and you've even treated me as town for the whole game.

[The Will of Heaven]

no? what turnaround?

[The Will of Heaven]

take your ad hom and go away

[The Will of Heaven]

I've never been wrong when ive opposed you

[The Will of Heaven]

yeah sure

this doesn't scream fake from a mile away at all

[The Will of Heaven]

that's a weird answer to that

[The Will of Heaven]

espeonage people were afraid that people might target UT and give birth to cultists at night, therefore he was taken care of early.

It doesn't make much sense at all that a scum dayvig shot him. Scum would be more fine letting the lynch land on ut as otherwise one of them could be lynched.

[The Will of Heaven]

oh hai xay hydra

pls towntell soon

[The Will of Heaven]

because the longer he lived the longer people would be distracted by him instead of playing properly. I can see why the vig decided to just get it done.

Besides, ut had done nothing up to that point. I doubt scum feared his reads or something.

[The Will of Heaven]

bulba

are you okay with ms spamming you are so town? Is he that good at reading you?

[The Will of Heaven]

why does it show town motivation? I know I never like anyone who townreads me for no visible reason, why do you?

[The Will of Heaven]

VOTE: Espe

for a change, I agree with bulba.

that he's cult? Why?

[The Will of Heaven]

because his response to the dayvig is very, VERY nonnormal. like he's disappointed.

i understand why cult would not want him to get vigged, but bringing it up after it already has happened? why does cult do this?

[The Will of Heaven]

He should have been kept alive so that we had another person for day 1 discussion.

except he was not fucking discussing. All he was posting about was "lynch me, shoot me, why am i not dead yet". He was asked to scumhunt repeatedly and he did nothing.

Again, the only thing that would have happened if he hadn't been shot quickly would be people talking about him and trying to get him lynched, which would be counter-productive. It was for the better he was taken care of.

[The Will of Heaven]

agreed that any lynch would help the gamestate right now.

So get on bulba: scummy, hard to read, different people have expressed different opinions on him with some of them extreme and therefore decent information lynch.

Lynching a lurker like peregrine won't do us any favors.

[The Will of Heaven]

sup xay

[The Will of Heaven]

I wanted to sign but then Nacho started mocking me and signing as ~Wis too

I mostly start my posts with a non-capital so you'll know it's me

see nacho's case for bulba-scum