Reck's Retrospective Rehash - OVER (thx obama)

[Iecerint]

Vote: Iecerint

I think mass game claim would be a bad idea. Consider these two games - you have a much higher probability of rolling VT if you're game is "Chuck" vs the other one. Scum could just play probabilities in NKs. In fact, I'm not sure how a D3 or a D4 claim would help as well.

It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia Mafia
Chuck Season 1

Luv u 2 bb.

[Iecerint]

Dan is town.

[Iecerint]

I don't think scum will be able to fakeclaim games at all, really, so I don't see the point of game massclaim. The first Mod posts list the 24 games that abilities are drawn from and people likely flip with their abilities. I think the worst that could happen by foregoing mass game-claim is that it could allow scum go counter-claim a game-claim, but that just sets up 1/1s and is desirable. So, I don't see the utility to town really. It would be different if scum had a bunch of "extra" games they could draw from. (Am I missing something, or are people missing this part of Reck's opening posts?) Meanwhile, if any games are really light or absent VT roles, that would basically out PRs.

Vote: jmj3000

This is a vote that I came up with after reading the thread, writing this post, looking at the player list, and picking a player mostly at random.

[Iecerint]

to counter-claim*

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Ooba made it most explicitly. I just decided to restate it because I am a beautiful flower and I had already thought of it.

I think someone else also mentioned it before Ooba.

[Iecerint]

It would be different if scum had a bunch of "extra" games they could draw from. (Am I missing something, or are people missing this part of Reck's opening posts?)

The opening post says that the 24 roles were taken from 24 different games. It doesn't say scum don't get a list of games that weren't used, which seems like a pretty obvious thing Reck would give them.

Dude, the literal games are listed.

[Iecerint]

Instead of a sample role PM, here are links to all role PMs from games used in this design process:

• Mini 869: Frat Party Mafia (uses Standard PMs)
  
• Left 4 Dead Mafia
  
• Mini 938: Weeds Mafia
  
• Guys, Pt. 2 [adult] Mafia
  
• It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia Mafia
  
• Reck's Mad Mad Mad Mad Mind
  
• Mini 1039: Lost Season One
  
• Reckamonic's Ocarina of Time
  
• Mini 1077: Lost Season Two
  
• Lost: Season Three
  
• Reckamonic's World of Warcraft Mafia
  
• Lost: Season Four
  
• Chuck Season 1 (uses *mostly* standard PMs)
  
• NY135: Sexy Sedilla Semi-Open
  
• Lost Season 5
  
• Modern Family Mafia
  
• Batman: Arkham City
  
• Gay Mafia
  
• Mini 1343: The Murder of Papa Zito (uses standard PMs)
  
• The (Re)Reckoning Invitational
  
• Gay Mafia II: Harder, Thicker, Longer
  
• Mini 1409: Storm of Songs
  
• Mini 1560: Reck's Walk of Shame (uses standard PMs)
  
• Suburban Warfare

There are 24.

[Iecerint]

OK sry bb. I just read the post and quote-responded to it instantly (cuz it quoted me).

Other players seemed to be misunderstanding the same thing.

[Iecerint]

Catching up.

I am wary of you skrew

@ iceyrent

could you elaborate on your townread of danny plz?

These were the posts that made me think he was town:

inclined to gut town read you from our small interaction.

I don't like Broseidon's entry into the thread.

Me neither

but then again, I didn't like yours

I don't really understand why it made Dan think Chevre is town, but I do think Chevre is probably town from other posts, so it gave me a good feeling. Also, I had 100% the same take on Shinobi's BRO posts as Dan. Subequent posts from Shinobi made me think Shinobi was town, though. But I was at the same mental state as Dan when I read that post.

[Iecerint]

On that note, I am 100% concordant with Shinobi on 4burner. 4burner's posts are attacking someone (Desp I think; lots of pronouns) for doing something that isn't particularly scummy but is more like a common-sense violation. Scum do make this kind of attack more than town, but sometimes people just aren't that with-it.

[Iecerint]

SleepyKrew: It felt like you were idling, waiting for something to spark so that you could go from there.

Unvote

Vote: Untrod Tripod

If our day 1 lynch is going to be someone of no use, UT's needlessly-aggressive one-liners are worse than ZZZX's putzing.

UT being like this is just a UT thing I think. This came up in a game I played with him earlier this year.

[Iecerint]

The longer I have to wait for Ward to talk about his Nexus vote (and I appreciate that it's not necessarily deliberate), the more stubborn I'm going to get about getting into more detail on it (even though the longer I wait, the more underwhelming it's going to be when I actually talk about it). I am a little surprised that some people who have previously been in games with both of us are not taking more interest in my vote being on him, though, as I've got a pretty great record with reading him early and accurately (and loudly).

4burner and ActionDan look town. Chevre's reasons for voting UT are misguided but not alignment-indicative. I must admit it's very tempting to go through with a ZZZX lynch because it'd probably be a fucking goldmine of info regardless of alignment but my read on Nexus is stronger.

CDB is town.

Unvote; Vote: Nexus

[Iecerint]

I know people engage in omgus, but that doesn't make it an acceptable conclusion

and anyway, his omgus is not alignment indicative and I never indicated it was (I actually have been really incredibly clear about that), so you're bringing that line of argument to the table

It actually wasn't clear AFAICR that you didn't think his OMGUS was contributing to your already-stated scumread.

[Iecerint]

So you'll explain it later?
Pwomise?

Why do I have to be around
Whatever forget about it

SK is obvtown, unless he is scum with UT.

[Iecerint]

And that would be a fucking stretch.

[Iecerint]

@Kise:

Each slot, once game and alignment were assigned, rolled a dice. That role was assigned to the slot. So yes, this could potentially end up all vanilla, or all power roles. This also means that ANY role could appear from ANY of my games, and roles will be implemented AS-IS. IE, you could roll a mason from a game, but not have a mason partner. You could roll an incredibly bastard role, and those elements still apply.

The only exception is in the case of WoW Mafia, which had no mafia roles... that game was treated specially and may have had their role adapted.

---

ooba is a sneaky little sneak who sneakily sneaks around while being absolutely sneaky. he will somehow convince you that lynching your own mason grandmother is somehow a brilliant idea. I have watched him do it.

from a dead qt.

Lol... Which dead QT is this?

---

Current reads:
4burner - Town
50 shades - Mostly Town
Chevre - Town, although the UT vote was weird

I'd like to see more Iece in this thread.

Unvote. Vote: ZZZX

I am kinda surprised that Ooba isn't thinking much about the same constellation of posters as me. I probably maybe agree with his townreads, though.

[Iecerint]

Can you get 100% concordant with killing wguerts?

Seems really lazy. Deadline lynch only.

Oh Iecerint, you shouldn't. You know I'm going to turn out to be the serial killer

Could be worse!

What already-stated scumread?

He's referring to his townread on Triforce for attacking him, which admittedly sounds pretty made-up. It is an unnatural way to reach a townread on someone, especially when you're simultaneously incredulous about being attacking for asking things. So it makes it more likely that the townread is designed to make friends.

So maybe less lazy upon reflection idk.

[Iecerint]

UNVOTE: 50 shades
Town: Triforce, Shenobi, 50 Shades, 4 burner, Chevre

VOTE: Untrod Tripod
reasons later.

-_-

[Iecerint]

Unvote; Vote: wgeurts

[Iecerint]

This wgeurts wagon makes me a little bit physically sick. Get back on Nexus, Iec.

OK.

Unvote; Vote: Nexus

[Iecerint]

I still think his reads are pretty dumb tho.

I mainly wanted to see what would happen if I did that re: his behavior, and he's already behaved.

I guess he's used to a funky meta.

[Iecerint]

@Iece: I'm null on UT, SK for now

---

Current reads:

4burner

- Town

50 shades

- Mostly Town

Chevre

- Town, although the UT vote was weird

I'd like to see more Iece in this thread.

Unvote. Vote: ZZZX

I am kinda surprised that Ooba isn't thinking much about the same constellation of posters as me.

I probably maybe agree with his townreads

, though.

UNVOTE: 50 shades
Town: Triforce, Shenobi,

50 Shades, 4 burner, Chevre

VOTE: Untrod Tripod
reasons later.

I still think his reads are pretty dumb tho

.

His reads post, I meant. It's impossible to evaluate them because his activity level surrounding those players has been non-existent. I thought he might pop back and things would become clear if the number of votes ramped up some.

[Iecerint]

Yo Iec why am I obvtown?

I thought it was obvious given my caveat that you could be scum with UT.

I came to that conclusion given your response to UT townreading you (a mixture of delight and paranoia). The interaction itself doesn't seem rehearsed, either, which is why I think the case of you being scum with UT is a stretch.

I had pretty nonspecific townesque thoughts about you before that, but nothing I felt very comfortable with or could articulate the reasons for, so I don't know what UT's comment was based on in particular, if that's what you're asking. Can't offer insight.

[Iecerint]

Untrod Tripod starts by starting a PL wagon against ZZZX. Then he starts a little absoultely contentless, scum-hunting less and useless discussion on the mass claim.To save you all an iso here they are:

YO

day 1 massclaims are a bad fucking idea

why the fuck are we talking about it?

Because it's a topic that deserves discussion rather than simple proclamations of whether it's good or not. Especially since it is not a massclaim.

no

it's bad

you're wrong

Because it's a topic that deserves discussion rather than simple proclamations of whether it's good or not. Especially since it is not a massclaim.

no

it's bad

you're wrong

Would you say these posts you're making are more helpful than those actually discussing the gameclaim?

yes. I'm not engaging in stupid bullshittery, you stupid clownfuck

But youre town so whatevs

He also tries to continue the zx wagon in various posts still going by the pl reasons. There was at the time of manh of these posts a little content to actuslly base something off however he still wants a policy lynch. The rest of his posts are little useless comments on play trying to look town. I suggest people look at his is, no scum hunting or content what so ever.

FWIW IIRC he did silly policy lynchesque stuff in another recent large game (Reckoning III) IIRC, and it made me scumread him there.

Not saying I think he's town, but I can understand maybe reading too much into this particular point may turn out differently than expected.

Scummy town meta is

scummy

obnoxious, but.

[Iecerint]

Oh I think I am seeing what Triforce is meaning.
I don't like how they tried to use his wiki work against him though. That seems unrelated to me, unless he has worked on a page about lynch mechanics.

I also found that kinda unnatural.

Like, I don't see scum piping in to feign ignorance of the majority vs. 2/3 threshold being normative. Piping in to express REAL ignorance because it feels awkward to post in the thread regarding on-topic stuff, maybe -- but not to feign ignorance.

[Iecerint]

What I challenge Iece/Ooba to do is give a concrete strategy or reason for wguerts to make the 2/3 post as town.

As town, he made the post because he legitimately thought reck had erred or whatever.

As scum, he posted something kinda kooky that doesn't really implicate any players whatsoever or ingratiate himself to anyone for...what reason, again?

[Iecerint]

oh iec please don't think I'm being salty because I don't like you, I'm just feeling ~sassy~ right now

Huh? What gave you that impression?

[Iecerint]

So you don't think I'm town, then? Shenobi has changed his view of me over to

silly

now, so where does that leave you?

I think it's more that you misunderstood Shinobi's take on you rather than that he changed his perspective.

I would say I am probably more ambivalent than Shinobi whereas he is learning town. I am actually comfortable with being ambivalent because I only have to lynch one person and I'm ambivalent enough to not really think it should be you.

In other words, the main relevance of those parts was that they gave me a town read on Shinobi rather than that I had a particular read on you.

[Iecerint]

Wards posting looks bizarre. Chevre digs deeper and deeper. Triforce and wguerts wagons are equally compelling, and I'll sheep ooba if he's going to cite some evidence and vote wguerts because it's a strange post. As town, I see motivation to not lie (feign ignorance) and play as straight forward as possible because you don't want to make things

more

chaotic. If it can be shown that wguerts is lying here, a town motivation will be hard to find.

Clarification: is Chevre digging a grave for himself, or is Chevre getting to the bottom of things? Not sure which metaphor you intended.

[Iecerint]

Wow, can someone actually build a case instead of blindly hopping on?
I imagine the scum have already got a few in there.

The nature of your defense upon initial pressure (e.g., reasoning-less list of suspects that duplicate other areas of suspicion by other players) is the main thing that makes me wonder about you I think. That kind of approach looks like it is designed to generate concordance with other players' reads rather than that it is evidence of a desire to lynch scum. Your reasoning coming after your reads gives the impression that you picked reads first and found reasoning second, which is consistent with finding a lynch target and using rhetoric to lynch them rather than using reasoning to assess whether different people are scum.

[Iecerint]

Not all of your comments read that way tho.

Vezo looks scum to me, also how can I refute an argument which isn't even a good argument.
The argument goes:
1.X asked mod a question he should know the answer to.
2.X is scum.

That is flawed beyond belief, how would what I did aid the scum in any way? It was literally just was just what it was; a question.

Like this doesn't for example, because this looks you encountered bullshit and had a reasonable reads-update subsequent to that bullshit encounter.

[Iecerint]

I actually have an easier time getting townreads than scumreads when I am town. When I am town, I know how at least one town person is reading the thread, so it's relatively easy to notice when other players are on the same wavelength as me.

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Ya Triforce townread also seemed weird to me. Seemed like a read designed to assuage Triforce rather than a legit townread (cf., how I get townreads in my previous post for why I might have that impression).

[Iecerint]

???

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I haven't read anything yet but I think wgeurts is town based on freely giving his username from another site. It reads as having nothing to hide.

Wat. I mean. It's not scummy, but I think that would be a pretty basic thing to do regardless.

I reserve the right to reverse my decision after actually reading the thread.

lol OK bb.

[Iecerint]

oh iec please don't think I'm being salty because I don't like you, I'm just feeling ~sassy~ right now

Huh? What gave you that impression?

I reread my posts and said "wow! that was pretty cunty!" so I just wanted to make sure I said that

Oh, I actually didn't bother to read the Spoilered part until right now.

I think your playstyle is scummy and I found it scummy in that game. My point in my post to wgeureureur is that he might pick up on the same things as me and conclude that you are scum, but it might not be valid for the same reason that it wasn't valid in the previous game.

[Iecerint]

But I mean I never commented on it so that's why I couldn't tell what you were talking about. I didn't know if you mixed up my post with someone else's.

[Iecerint]

Wegwerewrwer would be an OK lynch right now. Interested to see what Juls comes up with when she does her indicated readthing.

[Iecerint]

There is no reason for town to feign ignorance at all, lynch all liars.

Someone telling a recent joindate player to feign newbtown is not out of the realm of possibility to me because I have been on scumteams where people endorsed that strategy in my life. The idea that he made a bad scumplay is not a good argument that he is town. Chevre I am kind of surprised that you would have this perspective tbf.

[Iecerint]

I think your playstyle is scummy

sounds like a personal problem

My point was that wgurueru said he thought you were scummy due to your playstyle; I was pointing out that your scummy playstyle does not mean you are scum, cf. previous game. I am not saying that I think you are scum.

I am sorry it hurts your feelings that I find your playstyle obnoxious.

[Iecerint]

scummy playstyle

yeah my point is that you clearly don't actually know what scummy looks like :3

The site meta in general has shifted a great deal from when I first joined the site such that what I consider a scummy playstyle has become normative.

[Iecerint]

In other words, you are the cancer, etc.

[Iecerint]

Why is nobody answering my tripod case?
He's still done nothing than post ****.

I answered it with the counterpoint "born this way."

[Iecerint]

V/LA until November 10th or so. I'm visiting AP. I will still try to keep up.

[Iecerint]

@MOD sorry, but I have to replace out also I;m just kidding.

I'm willing to bet both my nuts that Iec is town.

Why the FOS kise?

Should I kill you as SK N1 again?

Well, I misinterpreted his post and had to click the quote/post 446 to remind myself of what Iec fully said in the beginning. I thought Iec was copping out to the accusation that he contradicted himself, but a reread of old stuff makes it clearer that Iec isn't backtracking. I apologize, have mercy on me.

So Juls are you SK or cult? Fans are dying to know.

And would it be correct to say that if wgert is mafia, he would be able to kill in (expired on 2014-10-29 16:14:09)?

Could you clarify what confused you exactly, maybe by quoting a handful of the posts?

[Iecerint]

I'm still not caught up had a busy busy day/night yesterday and will today. But I am free tonight and will do my best. I am trying to keep up with posts since I replaced in though and wgeurts really looks town to me. But nexxus is coming off really disingenuous, especially his vote on wgeurts. I'd probably put a vote on Nexxus if this was all I had to go on. But I will wait until I read the thread.

It's not a fucking difficult name to spell.

Nexus.

You can spell wgeurts correctly but not my name? Fuck off.

Why would you ever post something like this?

[Iecerint]

Look at the righteous anger about some people being quieter than others in a 24-hour game. Look at the purposeless increase in rage at Juls's spelling rather than, say, his scumreads. This Nexus vote is the real deal. Get on it.

luv u bb

[Iecerint]

I'm just trying to think about what must have gone through wgeurts's head if he is scum and decidedly to deliberately play up his newbieness by asking about two-thirds majority. If it's

not

an innocent mistake, then he chose that question specifically as a way to appear active without doing anything, but if he knew the question was stupid he'd also expect to be called out on it, especially knowing his own game history (he probably wouldn't have predicted anything quite this strong, though).

Scum are scared of drawing negative attention onto themselves. I find this hard to believe as an active choice made by a scum wgeurts.

If he did it as scum, he did it because a dumb scumfriend encouraged him to.

In that universe, his current annoyance at the site meta probably reflects annoyance at that scumfriend.

Nexus does post real crap tho.

[Iecerint]

I think Bella is maybe scum. Her wallpost mostly recapitulates some arguments that players have already made while ignoring counterpoints that players have also already made. It looks like she wants to appear really active and engaged, but there is evidence that she's not caring about parts of the thread.

[Iecerint]

~ thoughts ~

I am still tremendously bothered about the wguerts cog dis. I haven't looked through his entire posting history but I did read the md discussion and other things. I think he knows how lynches are achieved on this site in fact I am pretty sure of it. I do like that I got a townread on triforce over it. will probs vote him.

cdb is more than likely right about nexus. nexus feels very very different to me this game but it is a weak read on its own cos of not enough experience with nexus but cdb is picking up on something.

will probably put up a reads list soon

Luv u mollie.

[Iecerint]

NO MOLLIE WE AREN'T GETTING SIDETRACKED RIGHT NOW

Huh? She's commenting on standard stuff.

[Iecerint]

NO MOLLIE WE AREN'T GETTING SIDETRACKED RIGHT NOW

Huh? She's commenting on standard stuff.

I've played with mollie before and saw the sidetrack coming in her posts

You are a wise man.

[Iecerint]

Good post. Iece is posting stuff that I am thinking again - strong town tell based on past games. [Come to think of it though - I don't remember a game where I've played with Iece scum]. @Iece: Do you remember any?

I do not.

I do remember being scum with you a few times, though. I think Mollie's summary of that is pretty accurate -- your approach is similar, but you use your powers for evil.

[Iecerint]

I really wanna lynch ooba.

also iceyrent you have not said why you think danny is town

I actually did IIRC?

[Iecerint]

And mollie plz don't lynch ooba goodness gracious me.

[Iecerint]

Catching up.

I am wary of you skrew

@ iceyrent

could you elaborate on your townread of danny plz?

These were the posts that made me think he was town:

inclined to gut town read you from our small interaction.

I don't like Broseidon's entry into the thread.

Me neither

but then again, I didn't like yours

I don't really understand why it made Dan think Chevre is town, but I do think Chevre is probably town from other posts, so it gave me a good feeling. Also, I had 100% the same take on Shinobi's BRO posts as Dan. Subequent posts from Shinobi made me think Shinobi was town, though. But I was at the same mental state as Dan when I read that post.

[Iecerint]

Unvote

VOTE: Wgeurts

L-1

[Iecerint]

Vote: Aegor

His vote off the nexus wagon and voting wgeurts seems weak.


@CDB: How does that linked post make him town? Looks null to me.

What sequence of thoughts made you think of Aegor in particular? From the structure of your post, it looks like you decided on it prior to seeing CDB's catalog of suspects.

[Iecerint]

Cabd, Dan, and I are at Titus meet, so we won't be responsive to stuff til mid next week or so.

[Iecerint]

I thought Chevre was kinda maybe scum during the night. I am fine ignoring him via CDB for a bit.

[Iecerint]

I thought Chevre was kinda maybe scum during the night. I am fine ignoring him via CDB for a bit.

That's neat. Who

would

you like to see hang today?

Haven't read most posts today yet. Still at meet.

[Iecerint]

[quote="In post 1165, 50 Shades of Purple"]iceyrent has yet to answer why he thinks danny slot is town. /quote]
I am pretty sure I have literally answered this for you twice now (the second time by quoting the original answer when you asked me to a second time).

I'm back home now. I should have a catch-up post tomorrow.

[Iecerint]

I have not caught up yet. I spent most of the day catching up and work and trying to farm out league with zora before the season ends in a few hours. I'll try late tonight.

[Iecerint]

From memory @ Shinobi, you were active and goading early on. Also he mentions zzzx and majiffy, so focus is a bit of a sell, there.

This stands out for me, too, as something that differs between my recollection and jmj's notes.

[Iecerint]

Okay guys this next post has a set of instructions for you to follow.

Step 1: Fire up this
Step 2: Read the following posts:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p6339799
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p6342621
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p6347307
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p6347327
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p6347459
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p6347482
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p6347624
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p6361766
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p6363037

Step 3: Check out the Nexus interactions!
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p6347552
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p6347568

Step 5: Let's analyze and conclude!
Boy, 11 posts of pure awesomeness. Out of 27 posts. (Note: this doesn't even count the opening RVS post, or the V/LA post, so really out of 25 total posts.) That is neato burrito.

Good enough. I will vote this or Chevre if nothing else stands out in the next 10 pages.

[Iecerint]

Should say I didn't actually read the music or even all of the posts. I just read the first of the 12 or whatever and the Nexus-y posts. But w/e.

[Iecerint]

Ok, like I said, "very" is an overstatement so I retract the "very". The difference between CDB and Iec is that CDB has given me town-vibes whereas Iec has not. The difference between Shinobi and CDB is that Shinobi has only given me town vibes whereas CDB has given me mostly town vibes with a couple of scum vibes. If it would make you feel better if I put CDB in Leaning-Town then ok,

please officially add CDB to the leaning town column

Your comments about me in your Raw Notes thing seemed mostly pretty positive AFAICR tho?

And the negatives were like "I dont' get the wgeruts vote" and then later you were like "oh this explained that vote OK."

But I didn't read it very carefully or critically so maybe there were lots of other parts.

[Iecerint]

cabd asked if any1 wanted to hammer at 12:56pm but hammered at 1:39pm by my clock.

UNVOTE:

I am not pushing if he can't respond.

So he asked others to hammer even though he wasn't voting wgerueruts himself?

[Iecerint]

@Juls -

Why are you scum hunting me specifically and not just scum hunting?

Anyway.

What more would I need to do to make the Despo push

seem

genuine? I think the VT claim and Gameclaim push were scummy, purely due to not being able to find much town motivation behind it. And your definition of "Obviously Useful" is way, wayyyy different to mine, apparently. I don't see pushing a mass gameclaim as Obviously Useful.

If you actually read my posts, you'll see it was BOTH of these factors that influenced the confrontation, and perceived motivations behind it. So me basing my scumread on Despo was not based on 'one thing' as you mention.

I also saw my scumread Despo start to push onto null-Ward over something I saw when waiting for signups. I could easily see town getting dragged into a wifom-pit over the gamestart comment, so I added what I saw to the thread to try and avoid that, and that was that both Ward and ZXXX were the last to be bolded.

What Out, by the way? Where is my out for Wguerts if I'm in the habit of leaving a door open for myself? I thought he was scum, and his defense was not exactly ironclad. But either way, it's wifom.

Now, interactions with Nexus. Would you argue that my interactions with Nexus have been largely different from my question of anyone else in this game? And if I parroted a question...where's the scum motivation behind that? To look busy? Do I seem like I'm just 'looking busy' or genuinely trying to find scum here? If I was just to look busy, how do you think I would do think?

And apparently there's a tone change when I'm addressing Nexus. If you see it, there you go, I can't do anything about that. And yeah I'm voting Chevre today because um... Nexus is dead. Unless you are talking about yesterday, in which case I think my vote went from ZZZX to Despo to wguerts, but I could be wrong. You say 'putting your scum buddy in your scum reads but not top is a scum tell' - what am I meant to do with that? I had him in my scumlist. I voted wguerts. Nexus is now dead and thus I cannot vote him.

And supposedly I knew wguerts would flip town. I'll admit there was a portion of me thinking derptown, but the defense against the lie wasn't enough for me to swing out of scumvibes.

SO in summation;

You get bad vibes from me talking about Nexus. Subjective tell.
My Despo push was not 'genuine'. Subjective tell.
My wguerts vote was apparently hedged. Subjective tell.

....Cool.

what I'm now stuck with is trying to decide if the Chevre/Shinobi blind spot and this case equals scum or derp, and I'm having to fight through omgus to decide.

This seems sketchy to me. Too defensive, and the nature of the defense seems designed to discredit rather than to clarify, but I can't imagine someone non-mollie thinking Juls is non-town at this point.

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Thanks for taking the time to respond to the things I said.

Mod: Please replace me, my apologies...this game just became very unfun

qq

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I'm so glad you're here to lead us to victory.

I heard the buddying offer the first time, shin

This whole exchange seems awkward to me. I don't think UT has been disproportionately vapid up to this point, but Shinobi's point seems like he is mocking him for being vapid. UT doesn't get angry and they make friends after. Would not wagon either of them, but I will suspect the other more if either flips scum.

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Some dudes, I guess. Juls looks town. I might have townread you for something earlier but I can't remember what it was. The dude I'm voting looked okay. Bella looks townish. I want to townread Majiffy but I don't remember him doing enough to warrant it. AD looked okay when he was posting.

I don't think I have a scumlist atm. Just sorting through the usual omgus rampage right now.

UNVOTE:

Oh dear.

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Aside from the omgus rampage I just mentioned, not really.

I haven't given this game the time and attention it deserves to call anyone else out properly.

Though actually I could imagine him just being annoyed at all the Shinobi-focus today as town, so maybe I can kinda see this from town. I don't think anything like it was really happening yesterday.

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it's interesting to me that you're framing the argument as "stop sheeping" rather than "I'm town"

Solid point.

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I had forgotten that Bella was Desperado. I retract my un-stated (I think) scumread on Bella. w.

BRO looks sketchy in his exchange with Triforce/UT IMO but I mean he's townreading me so I kind of want to hug him.

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@ CDB, if content from D2-Chevre is informing your Chevre townread, I think you should ignore it as you evaluate Chevre.

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Okay, one last post before I go to bed about why the "omg he's lying about the 2/3 majority" thing was a shitty argument, using decision theory. I'm going to lay this out mastin-style: super clear and over-explainy, since I don't want this to go over anyone's head.

We'll start with scum's win condition, which is effectively "have a gamestate such that at least 1/2 of living players are scum." That's scum's primary objective. This objective function can effectively be broken down into two sub-objectives:

1) Keep at least 1 scum alive.
2) Remove townies

These two objectives are MECE (mutually exclusive comprehensibly exhaustive), and therefore, any action that we can expect scum to take is going to be towards one of these two goals (we'll ignore further breakdowns into things like, "remove town PRs," etc, since they're not relevant here). I think we can easily agree that after seeing the 2/3 post, you couldn't make an argument for that being towards #2 - what he posted wasn't an attack on anyone. Therefore, you'd have to argue that what he posted was strictly for the purpose of keeping some scum alive. Given that the post wasn't associative, your only argument for why this is a scummy action is that it was to keep himself alive.

And here's where I think the breakdown happens. You got this far, and now you had to argue why that post was somehow survivalistic in nature. You opted for the argument that it was a misdirection-type post, intended to play up his newbieness and feign involvement. However, were that the case, you'd generally see posts more akin to mine in Xenoblade or NY165. In both of those games, I made posts that demonstrated engagement with the game because they asked questions and appeared to scum hunt on the surface without really digging deep into anything or following up on anything (in Xenoblade, orc kept threatening to bus me because I was dropping lines of questioning left and right). Making stupid statements and asking basic rules questions is an easy way to draw attention to yourself. It doesn't feign engagement in any way, it in fact demonstrates quite the opposite. And given how much derp attracts votes like flies to honey, that's not something that scum would do.

Decision-theory, aside, you also spent a decent chunk of time skirting the "why is this scum" question (see your response to the ooba post I quoted earlier), which is another way of looking at the same issue with the initial push. You saw something that was dumb, that looked like someone was lying about a thing, and you pushed it without any regard to the question of "why does this make a person scum." Call it a veiled Lynch all Liars, if you will. You pretty much ignored the motivation behind the action.

Oh dear.

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But I mean BRO does that kind of thing as town too I think.

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I've got reads coming down the pipeline soon. Have patience.

I always find it super disingenuous when people promise that "reads" are coming "down the pipeline."

Like, either you have the reads, or you haven't read, and if you haven't read, who the fuck knows if you're going to get reads, unless you're scum and intend to manufacture them.

But wgeuruts and probably lots of others use this verbiage but just saying.

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@Iec Iso - maybe a slight townbump rather than null, but there's not a whole lot of what I would define as risky play. The opinions taken are not going to ruffle feathers so it could be construed as playing it safe, but for the most part nothing is really pinging as scum and we haven't interacted a whole lot regardless. Hasn't been involved with anybody hard enough to be able to rule out scumpartners or anything either so not much here for me.

I can actually see this. I don't think anyone has really pushed me for anything to make me get unpleasant or anything yet this game. UT seemed like he wanted to try to or something (?????), but I felt pretty shepherded by CDB I think, so I've just done my standard thing. It's been fun!

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That said, I think it should be pretty easy to townread me tbh. But if someone evaluates players on those grounds, I could see someone not having a strong read on me either way.

I have honestly not read his walls carefully enough to evaluate if his reads on other players creates a contradiction here.

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I feel like there are enough scummy players in this game that the ActionDan pressure is pretty strange!

Is also kind of weird to me that AD apparently has a lurker reputation now.

Again, he's been at the meet in Sacramento...he's just flying back today (Monday). I came back a day early, Cabd came back much earlier.

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Vote: Chevre

I've got 9 more pages to see but I am with this. I mainly think of Chevre being outspoken about wgeurts' wagon, asking why he had votes, being answered, and still asking why wgeurts was being voted. And I see the day ended with his vote on ZZZX still hoping for a policy lynch with Bro, Nexus & PV. Not good company.

I was uneasy with Shinobi from D1 but I think Shinobi is town for reasons that are anti-town if said publicly. Respect pls.

So I kinda think Chevre is scum, too, but I doubt he was sitting on a vanity wagon with his whole scumteam. Like, maybe they did it for the lulz or something but.

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This p5 push is also shitty.

This p5 push is also shitty.

Really. PLEASE ISO PereV and tell me what you think. I want comments on every post pls, there are only like 30 of them and half of them have ZERO CONTENT WHATSOEVER.

We'll ask the same question as before:

Why does this make him scum? We'll also add in the context that we're talking about p5, who's not exactly renowned for his analytical depth.

P5 used lurkerscum powers in Zodiac Mafia (ended recently) to mixed effect FWIW.

[Iecerint]

I'm so glad you're here to lead us to victory.

I heard the buddying offer the first time, shin

This whole exchange seems awkward to me. I don't think UT has been disproportionately vapid up to this point, but Shinobi's point seems like he is mocking him for being vapid. UT doesn't get angry and they make friends after. Would not wagon either of them, but I will suspect the other more if either flips scum.

you're really pulling that out of context

I've accused a LOT of people of buddying me

It's not that you accuse him of buddying you. I'll give some background to make it clearer:

The reason it pinged me is that during the Sacramento meet we were talking about ways to evaluate interactions between scumfriends prior to flips or in cases where the entire scumteam needs to be found without flips or whatever. AP mentioned that something he looks for is unmotivated aggression from one player to another that resolves overly quickly or whatever. I used to do it in every game back in like 2010 or whatever, so I thought more about it, and it was on my mind when I read your exchange with Shinobi. Your exchange with Shinobi is similar because his attack on you was poorly-motivated (for reasons I already expressed), your follow-up was kind of lateral to it (what does buddying have to do with him mocking you for being vapid?), and the resolution after he clarified that he was attacking you was really swift.

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Unvote; Vote: Chevre

I think Chevre is scum. I could switch to P5/PV, 4burner, Aegor, or BRO, roughly in order of most willing to least willing. It would probably take some rhetoric to redirect me, though. I would also really want to go over 4burner with some rigor before voting him, because I suspect that going over his posts in more detail might change my opinion a lot one way or the other. I haven't done it yet because I am relatively comfortable voting Chevre or P5.

Shinobi I think is town. I thought he was town yesterday and I think he's town today. The post on this page about having really weird scumhunting strategies on this site is an example of a post by Shinobi that makes me think he's town.

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now if only mollie would stop fucking with people, we could all ride together.

This seems sketchy to me. Too defensive, and the nature of the defense seems designed to discredit rather than to clarify, but I can't imagine someone non-mollie thinking Juls is non-town at this point.

so much h8t

holy cow batman iceyrent is flurry posting

I don't hate you; I just think you get paranoid and suspect random people at times. I didn't want you to say like "But I suspect her!" because I knew that you were scumreading her when I was at that point in the thread.

BTW please finally acknowledge that I answered your question about AD literally weeks ago.

And I'm done now! I did my civic duty!

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Tbf I am more skeptical that he is town by this point, but in the moment I was really sure that he was town.

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If you were reading the thread very critically, you would know that AD has been at a meet in Sacramento up until maybe 8 hours ago (and he lives in NY).

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I personally don't understand the reasons for the Shinobi wagon outside of CDB's perception that he was shady toward Nexus (but tieing his vote to CDB would seem to tie it to voting Nexus, anyway, so what's the motive there, as it just decreases your bussing points and makes it awkward if you back out).

So, I don't think it's that sketchy or unfathomable for Shinobi to not like the votes on him. Chevre doesn't even clarify why it would be sketchy or unfathomable AFAICT, other than to indicate that Shinobi has done it a few times.

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I feel like Chevre would definitely not ignore me if he were town.

We mean too much to one another for that.

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@Iec

- I see you there. Wanna chat about your read on me? Also regarding the Shinobi case, if you can't see it from Iso'ing him and the interactions, I've got multiple points against him in MY iso.

My read on you will probably change if I read your iso more closely. I will admit to skimming it as I caught up. Yesterday IIRC I came to the conclusion that you were town based upon the follow-up from something silly you said, but I don't remember the details right now.

IIRC current read is influenced by CDB's take, though I totally disagree with CDB about Chevre so.

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ActionDaniel plz vote for Chevre even if you feel guilty because he is your scum-kouhai.

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Had an early town read on Chevre, so not liking that vote.

Shinobi I haven't read yet but got it wrong last time.

New Vezok, when he's town, does more than this.

Vote: Vezok

I had an early town read on Chevre too FWIW.

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I have inferred that something in particular that Chevre did today made you think he was more town than you otherwise might. If this is not the case, you can ignore my point.

I am aware that your Chevre read is partly based on your perception that he is not likely scum with Nexus.

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Yeah, we lynched him D1 in Reckoning III due to his inactivity.

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Best case for Dan town really is that he got pressure at all.

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Best case for Dan town really is that he got pressure at all.

But this doesn't apply to every other lurker?

I didn't notice anything against other lurkers being disproportionate.

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ActionDaniel is by this point simply asking for it, though.

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Oh dear.

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Whatever, I'll engage with it.

BRO looks sketchy in his exchange with Triforce/UT IMO but I mean he's townreading me so I kind of want to hug him.

What is your intended implication?

But I mean BRO does that kind of thing as town too I think.

I'm the most theory-driven person on this site, so me using theory is weird because...

The very post that you are quoting is making the same nullification argument as you, so I do not understand the need for your rhetorical ellipsis.

This p5 push is also shitty.

This p5 push is also shitty.

Really. PLEASE ISO PereV and tell me what you think. I want comments on every post pls, there are only like 30 of them and half of them have ZERO CONTENT WHATSOEVER.

We'll ask the same question as before:

Why does this make him scum? We'll also add in the context that we're talking about p5, who's not exactly renowned for his analytical depth.

P5 used lurkerscum powers in Zodiac Mafia (ended recently) to mixed effect FWIW.

Okay, great. Now how is this game more like that and not like every game where he lurks as town?

P5's activity has upticked dramatically in the previous 48 hours or so; all of this is deprecated.

Unvote; Vote: Chevre

I think

Chevre is scum. I could switch to P5/PV,

4burner, Aegor, or

BRO,

roughly in order of most willing to least willing. It would probably take some rhetoric to redirect me, though. I would also really want to go over 4burner with some rigor before voting him, because I suspect that going over his posts in more detail might change my opinion a lot one way or the other. I haven't done it yet because I am relatively comfortable voting Chevre or P5.

Shinobi I think is town. I thought he was town yesterday and I think he's town today. The post on this page about having really weird scumhunting strategies on this site is an example of a post by Shinobi that makes me think he's town.

Wow.

Are you a strong enough player for me to burden of proficiency on you?

You need to indicate specifically what you are taking exception to. As is, this is a purely rhetorical discredit.

[Iecerint]

1) The face palm is at that post, because it's dumb. You lay a blanket statement with no reasoning, and it's also a bad blanket statement.

2) I probably should have quoted the last post with it, but the general implication is that the fact that you find that sort of posting scummy (which I think I can imply is the case based on the two posts together) is dumb. Not scummy, just dumb.

3) Great, I can find a town game where he did that. The meta case on him is still shit because it's built on stuff that he does as both alignments.

4) The bolded reads are bad.

1. Wanting to townread someone because they are townreading you is a human reaction that all humans experience. Everyone, unless they are gambiting like heathens, thinks that they are completely rational and transparent when they are town, and people who don't see that are viewed with irrational suspicion. It goes both ways. I expressed this because I realized that my thought pattern was reflective of my alignment and therefore worth expressing.

2. It is scummy to post information instead of analysis. That is why we have a scumtell called IIOA. When I encounter IIOA, especially as a response to pressure, it looks like the player does not know how to contribute appropriately to the game, so they are posting in a comfortable, alignment-neutral way to appear useful while not actually contributing meaningfully (i.e., not scumhunting), which I think is more likely to happen when the player knows the scumteam or who, due to being scum, hasn't read closely enough to have legit reads. You do this all the time in lots of games, so I reflected on it after posting it originally to point out that you just like doing it, even when you are town.

3. I don't particularly think he's scum right now. Tbh the best reason to lynch him at this point is that he claimed VT prematurely (similar to yesterday). (I am not voting him and do not think that this is sufficient for lynching him -- it's just that VT lynches are fine and round-robbin claiming is not, and maybe this will prevent the rabble from speaking out of turn in the future, etc.)

4. Nope! Though I don't particularly think P5 is scum atm.

Why do you think Chevre is town?

/drunkpost

[Iecerint]

1/2. Providing alignment-neutral content -- if it's occuring in the absence of providing alignment-relevant content -- is scummy because it suggests the player is not involved enough in scumhunting to have insights that reflect a town alignment. The exception to this is when a player constructs a meta-out for themselves. I remembered your meta-out after my initial gut impression of what you had said.

3. You should lynch any claim that happens to avoid going from wagon to wagon and generating a million claims. I don't think the premature aspect is relevant to his alignment; this is just a theory-based point. Put another way, the best reason to lynch him (like, if someone wanted to) has nothing to do with his alignment and is just related to minimizing unnecessary claims, especially given the wcs is a VT flip.

NB: This is related to my not voting him and to my not really thinking he is scum anymore. Please do not mistake my identifying the best case for a lynch as endorsing that lynch. Not sure if this point is confusing you (???), but your language kind of suggests it is for some reason.

4. 2SCUM4SCUM is the worst basis for a townread ever. But OK! I have not played with Chevre much really, but my take on Chevre as mainly a social poster on the site actually made me think he would be all over that. I was townreading him prior to near the end of D1.

As far as reads on you in particular are concerned, if you want people to townread you in games, you should probably adopt a more town meta (cf. 1/2 above).

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Am I... invisible?

I have no sense of what you want to happen in this game really FWIW.

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However, I'm happy you replaced in. Would love to have a small blurb on your other main reads if you have the time.

Anyone in particular? Or just a general blurb on my other main scumreads? I'll get round to it later tonight

I do not understand how ooba could help you to select your main reads.

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Do the people on the P5 wagon still think he's scum, or is the attitude more like "to hell with it"?

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Whatever, let's just lynch dan.

Unvote; Vote: ActionDan

I think Chevre is the most likely to be scum, but I don't realistically see him being lynched today.

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Number of times I have actually regretted lynching a lurker on this site: 0.

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what the fuck

don't get me wrong, I want to lynch Dan too, but this looks like you're trying to swing it away from PV

It's almost like I don't particularly think that PV is scum.

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Whatever, let's just lynch dan.

Unvote; Vote: ActionDan

I think Chevre is the most likely to be scum, but I don't realistically see him being lynched today.

I think you should remember
that early strong gut town reads
don't change alignment midway through the game

Except for that one time when you a serial killer.

[Iecerint]

I read it though.

Unvote; Vote: Kise

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I assume the Aegor relative town read is based mostly on your perception that Kise is scum who is OK with lynching Aegor, right?

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I would prefer Aegor or Kise.

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It's 8 AM.

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If my skepticism of the Shinobi wagon made you reconsider that wagon, why doesn't my skepticism of the PV wagon similarly make you reconsider it? You make it sound like the PV wagon disappeared into the ether under dubious circumstances, but you have simultaneously apparently decided to unvote Shinobi because of my influence.

More generally, why are you persuaded by my take on Shinobi when I think you're scum? Why are you not more disturbed that I think you're scum?

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CDB with the amazing D1 bus.

Kise with the amazing not getting lynched somehow I don't get it really.

gg.

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You must become the CarryDaniel.

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the right people got NKed, all ima say

ilu2