WiFom City: Don't Trust Titus - GAME OVER

[singersigner]

Won't get to this until I get home from chemo tonight.

[singersigner]

I also instantly regret replacing into another multiball. I seriously need to fucking read the games before I agree to play them and not just get suckered into them because of the playerlist or as a favor.

[singersigner]

Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to say I wasn't going to try. I just wanted it to be known that I'm not even going to try to setup spec and acknowledge that this might make me prone to being manipulated but I think I'm a good enough player to recognize when that's happening.

I guess SK multiball wouldn't be as bad as We are the Purple was. >_>

[singersigner]

Sorry definitely need a night to vedge after being on the go for over a week. I'll get to this tomorrow since I was smart and took an extra day of vacation as a buffer! ^_^

[singersigner]

PAGES 1-5

17 by Mastin...seems an awful lot like setting up a narrative for how long she will stick around like she knows her play will be scummy and won’t be nightkill worthy, etc, etc. Initial gut scum read. This is also the first time I’ve ever seen her say her reads might not be good which I’m not sure how to take as either alignment. >_> Later she says my team instead of town...
25 by Bulb doesn’t really acknowledge why he thinks Mastin is town which is normally fine but since I feel the opposite it feels unnatural for towncred.
26 by Quoth...actually explains the read on Mastin and while I still disagree it feels like a town explanation due to the inherent meta layers involved to come to that read.

62 by TBB but

@mod...is it possible to get a separate quote when answering setup design/role related questions to make it easier to find?

66 by TBB...knowing why someone’s being voted but it being ”too obvious to sheep” seems like wanting to withhold credit for bussing a buddy while delaying the actual bussing as long as possible...alternatively encouraging someone’s incorrect read on someone while avoiding a mislynch. Gut scum read here that does not have any baring on TriforceP’s alignment.
Followed by 69 for seemingly no reason after mild encouragement from Oversoul...
Followed by BURDEN OF PROOF geezus fuck this guy is scum.
104 and 105 by ZZZX...you really need to stop trying to prove how awesome of a player you are. Until you stop having at least an equal amount of games that put you in endgame as still a wild card, and people start agreeing, it’s never going to be true.
106 by TBB...that hydra dissonance I sure do love!
107 by PV...seriously? The question thing is the most suspicious thing you’ve found so far?? Seems like an easy vote park...
121 by TriforceP...no follow-up now that you’ve determined RVS is “about” over (hint: it was over like on p2). Why unvote?

Scum reads so far are Mastin and TBB. Town reads are Quoth...well that's it so far but that's acknowledge there needs to be followup by some people.

[singersigner]

PAGES 6-10

135 by BF...picks up on the same thing I did with TriforceP’s unvote/out of RVS statement. Shows town line of thinking.
140 by Mastin...WTF WHY DO PEOPLE FEEL LIKE THEY NEED TO PROJECT A DIFFERENCE IN PLAY. I thought it was a scumtell from Titus in S&V but I just saw it from townNacho in Saki mafia, so I’m gunna try not to let this conbias me...
153 by TBB...big reads list that doesn’t make much of an impression on me...until the bottom! He does that “encouraging” thing that scum like to do when they’re trying to look productive. What bothers me is that he said “we’re 7 pages in with little to no hunting yet” which is pretty untrue! There have been plenty of reads discussed so it’s like...how can you even think that? Seems like trying to hard to look pro-town to me...
154 by Drixx...this is 100% protown. The only worry I have is that it could be baiting a JK to ensure the rest of their scumteam doesn’t get caught, but I highly doubt that with the way it was worded. I really like this for town. @Drixx, did you discuss claiming this with ZZZX? Why didn’t he mention it before?
157 by PV...nailed the hypothetical issue I thought he could’ve had with Atum. I actually missed Atum’s response to PV, but the wording of it seems awkwardly pretentious and fake. Slight scum read on Atum.
171 by Drixx...I didn’t really have an issue with you bringing up the trust tell thing until now, probably mostly because I just assumed you were town regardless, but this seems out of place. You’re commenting on him saying a fact, as in, mastin has literally only ever seen him play as one alignment, not “oh I only play like this as one alignment” so your bottom line of “I didn’t expect to be scumread for being helpful” pings my scum-trying-to-be-helpful radar. Stahp.
172 by TBB...ugh, I

don’t

like that I just agreed with everything TBB said...
If I didn’t know any better, I’d take elusive’s abrasiveness as a scumtell. Unfortunately it’s null.
224 by Maxwell...what’s the thing elusive’s doing that you don’t like and how does it affect your read on him?
228 by TriforceP...noting this later for if either of them flip scum.
244 by Grib...could you...give any more insight on elusive being town? I agree that he’s being attacked more for playstyle but his content is neutral to me so what’s your experience with him and why do you think he’s town?
249 by elusive...the Klingon scumread kind of came out of thin air after her vote on you. What made Klingon’s vote on you more scummy than anyone else’s thus far?

[singersigner]

So I just noticed this in my catchup, but...

What's the difference between this:

Oh and to clarify I mean a real reads list,

not an OMGUS I put everyone in my wagon as scum

for the SCUM LOLZ

And this:

Klingon scummy asf and I need to look at those interactions because

scum love to wagon me

for not playing like a robot.

Also, have you ever noticed that OMGUS more often comes from town than scum? Scum realize they've been caught, so it's easier for town to accuse the people of being wrong about them than scum trying to throw shade on people they know are right.

[singersigner]

vote: elusive

This is 100% policy.

I'm still reading up and don't have a strong read on elusive one way or another so I really don't care enough to prevent a lynch on him at this point.

PB don't replace out, just lynch him so you don't have to deal with his shit anymore and maybe he'll learn something about how we play on this site in a civilized world.

[singersigner]

Stop. We are not wasting a lynch on obvious town.

What about on an obvious white-knight?

Like, seriously? I've only read ten pages, but have been trying to keep up with the added pages since I replaced in, and this is like the second or third time there's been serious issues made of elusive's play.

Are you opposed to policy lynches? Is this really creating a conducive scumhunting environment? It's selfish play and self-serving, regardless of alignment, it's anti-town.

I just got out of We are the Purple Mafia with Wisdom where he was literally just spamming shit and making the game miserable for everyone to the point of apathy, and his scum team ended up winning. I don't want that to be the case here, because obviously if he's town scum will never kill him, and it's an easy distraction cover for an SK. If he's scum even better.

I see literally no downside to policy lynching elusive at this point, especially if it means players like PB would stay in the game instead.

[singersigner]

I've always advocated policy lynches, for exactly this reason.

I see no reason to report behavior I can advocate not being a part of this site's meta through . You can't really bait me into taking action myself, though, since I can't do that in a game I'm currently play.

You can keep trying to exaggerate why you're being wagoned right now. It won't do you any good.

This is also all I'll say on the matter. I don't want to encourage more negative utility in the game more than has already been done. You can just deal with the hand you asked for.

[singersigner]

Oh and singersinger is just on something because this is page 10:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=225

You haven't read but you feel the need to comment? Oh cool. You haven't read and you and Prolapsed feel the need to defend KC slot. Oh cool. I asked you simple questions and instead of answering you advocate a policy lynch. Oh cool. So damn town. It's a wonder.

Calling the scum team-> KlingonCelt, SingerSinger (replaced scum Persivul who's replace out had nothing to do with me since this isn't the only game where he's done that out of some issues), and with an outside chance of : Prolapsed, Gumball.

I'm not actively defending the slot. I'm pointing out the inconsistency in your words and actions which wasn't about KC's alignment, it was about yours. I also explained that I was trying to keep up with recent posts, so when I posted that particular catchup, you had recently posted the inconsistency I saw.

I only asked you a question you seem to have avoided; I wasn't even accusing you of anything until now, so...I'm not even sure how you got that out of my post...?

[singersigner]

singer, [snip] I mean as a Mod maybe you should investigate unfair or lopsided Mod decisions in games but you're not going to do that, are you?

We can talk more about this after the game, but we allow mods to use their discretion within reason to make the decision they feel is best for their games. If that's something you disagree with, please address your concerns/complaints to the relevant LM or site mod.

[singersigner]

So I just noticed this in my catchup, but...

What's the difference between this:

Oh and to clarify I mean a real reads list,

not an OMGUS I put everyone in my wagon as scum

for the SCUM LOLZ

And this:

Klingon scummy asf and I need to look at those interactions because

scum love to wagon me

for not playing like a robot.

Also, have you ever noticed that OMGUS more often comes from town than scum? Scum realize they've been caught, so it's easier for town to accuse the people of being wrong about them than scum trying to throw shade on people they know are right.

I asked you what the difference was between those two posts. How you feel it's difference between your circumstance and KC's.

I assumed you weren't answering it because you referenced back to the fact that "I haven't read but need to comment" because I was asking clarification on something, and pointed out an observation I've noticed more in town than scum. Again, this wasn't more so about KC's alignment, it was about discerning yours. Instead you said I was high on something which didn't address the issue at all.

[singersigner]

You haven't answered my questions.

So...where are the questions you expect me to address? The backhanded one about not refuting the case you brought up on KC that I haven't read yet? Or the one about my definition of "civilized" which was clearly just trying to bait me down a tunnel I refuse to go down with you.

[singersigner]

singer, you can't answer any questions until you read instead of baiting me. Considering you played with me in Ori and stuff, I can't imagine why you would think that was okay.

Think what was ok?

How am I baiting you? (don't think I didn't notice you throwing that word back in my face )

[singersigner]

Even this conversation, singer is you avoiding reading the game. So why don't you catch up. Then you can do this (in case you miss it):

1. What are your reads or general thoughts about players?
2. What are your specific reads or thoughts about mastin vs. KC and gumball's soft defense of KC.
3. What are your thoughts on Bulbazoar the main wagon and the people scum or town reading him?

Is that reasonable?

Noted to come back to.

Do you believe that these current interactions and reads I'm trying to develop as the game goes should just be discounted until I've caught up? Because I don't.

I'm also not planning on reading much of this game tonight because I kind of just don't want to. I put a lot of effort into catching up and try to do so without also falling behind, so disagreeing with the way I'm doing it and attacking me for it serves no purpose other than to try to make me look scummy when I'm not.

I'm sure you can guess how I feel about people who try to make me look scummy when I'm not.

[singersigner]

Scum reads so far are Mastin and TBB. Town reads are Quoth...well that's it so far but that's acknowledge there needs to be followup by some people.

Also, my catchup posts should answer your first question, and this should've already answered your second (except the part about gumball). The third isn't game relevant where I am right now because there's no wagon on him, and since I've replaced in I've only seen mild comments about Bulb so...guess I'll get to that when I get to it.

[singersigner]

When did KC refuse to do anything until Mastin responded to her?

[singersigner]

When did KC refuse to do anything until Mastin responded to her?

I'm sorry but am I going to shortcut the game for you? Or are you going to catch up? Because wow.

Maybe ISO KC.

I find that town are more willing to point you in the direction they need you to look because they just want people to make informed decisions and are willing to do whatever it takes to get someone to see their point of view. Scum like to be stubborn and antagonistic in order to create chaos that can be used as triggers for future "scumreads."

That being said, I've been very transparent about where I am and what I'm doing to catch up, so either I missed this conversation with Mastin/KC (doubt it), or it came after where I was, and you're purposefully trying to make it seem like I'm not paying attention.

Do you not see the issue I have with you claiming that I'm singling you out when I finished Page 10 that ended with a post by you, and as I posted that particular quote, you had literally within a few posts of that catchup post, posted something I felt was different. Why do you insist on being abrasive and unwilling to reason? How does that help anyone read you?
(hint: this is what I saw from Wisdom in the Purple game. He attacked me for not being caught up while still trying to keep up, claiming I was asking questions that I "had no intention of following up on" or "could've been answered if I'd just read the thread" when I was just trying to engage myself in a game I'd fallen behind on)

[singersigner]

Addendum. It was policy. Now I actually think you're scum. Thanks for engaging with me so I could find that out!

[singersigner]

Ok so Bulbazoar wagon has died down (cool singersinger hadn't read the game but somehow knew that, cool cool cool).

Ok, Abed.

But in all seriousness, Bulb wasn't a wagon by page 10. You asked me to comment on the Bulb wagon and as of page 10 there wasn't one.

What part of that was unclear?

Like, you either want me to comment on the current Bulb wagon not caught up which how am I supposed to do that, or catch up and comment on the nonexistent Bulb wagon which woah wait if you've been reading the game how did you not know it died down??? So...if the current Bulb wagon isn't the Bulb wagon you think it is it's not as bad except if I mysteriously knew it wasn't a Bulb wagon because it just so happened to not have been a wagon at the point that was relevant to me and the game state say whaaat.

Geezus fuck, this is Wisdom all fucking over again.

[singersigner]

Singer, you defended the KC slot and are now turning a policy lynch into a scum read. You are scum and so is KC. Thanks for making that easy.

As for being helpful, I asked you several questions and instead of answering them you said you didn't have time and would catch with the rest of the game when you had time. Yet you 1. Knew that the wagon on Bulbazoar had gone down and 2. Again, will do anything to defend the KC slot.

I don't help people who don't answer my questions but instead fake reads.

Muffin, where is your vote right now. Also I am playing the game.

You didn't even read my catchup posts and now you're accusing me of faking my reads and not properly answering your questions even though I only failed to answer one due to my being behind?

And...how am I defending the KC slot again? Because I don't think you've made your own personal narrative clear enough for me.

[singersigner]

Oh ffs, it's not the meta, it's the actions themselves. Wtf is your problem.

[singersigner]

For posterity so I can rub it in later:

When did KC refuse to do anything until Mastin responded to her?

That is called a soft defense. Since its nominally easy to ISO a player and find the exact post (she hasn't posted much overall anyway). This is either a delaying tactic or a annoy a player tactic.

I asked you three questions which you said you wouldn't answer until later because of etc. How dare you accuse me of not reading when that's what your past few posts have been about? Am I asking you about your catchup posts or did I specify three questions that I would like the answer to once you've caught up? Which you claim you won't do until another day but you have no issue continuing to respond to me right now instead of catching up and doing me the courtesy of responding to my questions. Or do you refuse that common town courtesy?

Don't avoid the obvious. If you need to refer to a game, please refer to Ori where we both played. Or my Wiki is pretty up to date with complete games, town and scum.

1. I literally just wanted you to direct me to it because ISOing on phones is hard and frustrating without ctrl f.
2. Apparently you missed the post where I actually did answer the questions, and even quoted myself for you instead of making you look back. You didn't specify that you wanted my opinion once I caught up so I gave you what I had at the time. You're also either ignoring or don't believe me when I say I take catching up seriously, so I actually want to be able to sit at a computer and take the time to do it properly.
3. I honestly don't remember much about Ori except the Metal Sonic drama. I tend to block scum games out of my memory as I'm not as invested in them.

Anyway, I'm sorry for your replacement because I'm pretty solid on my scumread of you now. Womp womp.

Anyway, s

[singersigner]

Objectively speaking, it was a good policy lynch because of the wifom he was creating. Though I don't condone them as much in minis, especially not outside of D1.

Why do you have such a townread on elusive/incoming? What do you think of the most recent conversation?

[singersigner]

OMG YES.

AP/Oversoul, I specifically want to know how you feel about my comparison to Wisdom with elusive, and how both of their actions were scum motivated. Do you agree? If not, why?

[singersigner]

That is a bad comparison. Players s tyle of play are different. Not one player is the same in this game.

That's not what I'm comparing. I'm asking them to look at the similarities behind the actions that were clearly scum motivated. Like, Wisdom created a narrative that I wasn't paying attention and didn't have intent of finding scum, and elusive did the same thing. Yes, those are mutually exclusive from the players themselves, but consistent within alignments as far as the anti-town motivation goes.

Also, I know it was originally directed at Grib but can you also answer my question about why you're town-reading elusive?

Wisdom himself said that he was being that way in wtp2 to "fake his town meta".

And people let him get away with that?? Wtf.

I hate this site meta so fucking much right now.

[singersigner]

I do not get why scum would react the way she did. That would bring attention to her slot. It is a weak read mostly gut.

How did it turn from an "obvious town" read to a "weak read mostly gut"?

[singersigner]

But you are still scum.

Wait, seriously?

[singersigner]

Yes. Perse was scummy. What was the need of a site flake?

Are you even listening to yourself right now?

First of all "site flake" is the very definition of null and not alignment indicative so how you're trying to read anything from that is beyond me.

Second of all...well I don't care was perse did but did you even read anything that just transpired over the last few pages? Because I feel like you didn't.

[singersigner]

I read you trying to compare two totally different players.

...and?

So you can do one of three things:
1. say you disagree with me but you understand where my motivations are coming from.
2. say you disagree with me and you don't understand why I feel this way and it's scum motivated becaaause....'x'.
3. make a semi-factual statement, disregarding my own commentary on the matter about how it's not the players themselves, but the actions the players took which are parallel and scum motivated, without commenting on how it makes you feel except that somehow you're deducing I'm scum because of it question mark. (I see you've chosen this route but I'd love for you to open doors number one or two)

[singersigner]

Well. What was the overall point?

What do you mean what was the overall point?

Point of what, my interaction with him?

[singersigner]

I'm honestly not sure if you're fucking with me at this point.

I was in the middle of catching up, had taken a break, kept up with the current thread, called elusive out on a potential inconsistency that he didn't like (or explain before he got defensive), started getting into a conversation with him where he started accusing me of being scum because I wasn't caught up yet and singled him out when it was obvious it was because he just so happened to be the last posts I read both on page ten and when I posted my catchup, etc. He started reminding me of arguing with Wisdom in the Purple game, who I caught as scum based on the scum motivated of Wisdom's posting, accusing me of doing the same things which just looks like a default scum push, so I related it to elusive who then got up in arms about how I clearly wasn't reading and how could I relate him to someone else's meta when it's the action not the person and akldsjhnbalskdgjbagd how is no one seeing this??

[singersigner]

Because Titus originally invited me be a part of the game in the original playerlist but I didn't want to have too many commitments so I told her to put me on the replacement list. Then she solicited me as a replacement right when Saki mafia was winding down so I figured I'd end one and begin another.

Why?

[singersigner]

I'm honestly not sure if you're fucking with me at this point.

I was in the middle of catching up, had taken a break, kept up with the current thread, called elusive out on a potential inconsistency that he didn't like (or explain before he got defensive), started getting into a conversation with him where he started accusing me of being scum because I wasn't caught up yet and singled him out when it was obvious it was because he just so happened to be the last posts I read both on page ten and when I posted my catchup, etc. He started reminding me of arguing with Wisdom in the Purple game, who I caught as scum based on the scum motivated of Wisdom's posting, accusing me of doing the same things which just looks like a default scum push, so I related it to elusive who then got up in arms about how I clearly wasn't reading and how could I relate him to someone else's meta when it's the action not the person and akldsjhnbalskdgjbagd how is no one seeing this??

So, I find the argument you're making a little confusing. Let me try to explain it to you, and then you tell me if I've got what you're saying correct, k?

You're saying in some other game, Wisdom (who was scum), attacked you for making comments/observations about recent events despite not having read the entire thread.

You're saying elusive did the same thing here.

You're saying this is indicative of elusive scum?

Honestly I find that pretty weak.

Well when you put it that way yeah it doesn't sound all that great but in my head it was like so ridiculously parallel that it just seemed like a lightbulb aha moment that it's really easy for scum to push buttons when they know they can get to someone. I can count on one hand the number of people who as town get under my skin as much as Wisdom did that game, elusive was doing here, my first and only ever replace out due to scum, and countless other interactions I've only now started to understand as coming mostly from scum because it means they're manipulating the game.

Basically I saw elusive twisting the facts only she felt were relevant (conveniently overlooking anything else or repeating it was scummy in order to reinforce that idea in the rest of everyone's head), in order to fit her narrative without acknowledging the bigger picture. Only scum feel the need to do that because they can't win otherwise.

[singersigner]

Oh please Bulb you can't make me a "primary suspect" just because

you

think I'm scum.

[singersigner]

Singer, have you supported policy lynches in other games? If so, links plz

I have! But because I do it almost every time I have a chance, I'm gunna use the fancy search option and find one for you since I can't think of one off the top of my head that are't ongoing.

[singersigner]

PAGES 11-15

255 by Mastin...what’s the point in giving a reads list if you think it sucks?
260 (and 270) by elusive...yeah, yeah, I know she’s not in the game anymore, but I noticed another discrepancy in the way she interacts with people: “answer them if you’re town and like to be cooperative.” Then she turns around and insists on not cooperating for the sake of...what? I don’t think hypocrisy is a scumtell, but in this particular instance, it feels like she’s picking and choosing when she thinks it’s town/scum based on the same trait. If she thinks it’s town to be cooperative, why wouldn’t she just point me to her case, or quote the KC/mastin thing when I asked? It seems like if she really cared about pushing a scumread that she genuinely believed in, she would do everything in her power to convince people and help them come to that conclusion. Instead she just created more conflict knowing it would continue drowning the thread and create apathy.
283 by Quoth...SOMEONE SEES IT.
286 by KC...what’s the point of commenting on the fact that elusive’s wagon isn’t a “wagon” if you weren’t going to comment on the votes themselves...or at least comment on why Muffin was commenting on it?
314 by TBB...what’s the point of asking him for generic reads? Do you want to know his read on anyone in particular? You seem not to care about why you’re making him upset.
317 by Muffin...I like the thought process here. I don’t know enough about TriforceP’s experience to say it applies, but the thought process is town.
I feel like it’s a fruitless exercise to continue pointing out posts/issues I’m having with elusive’s play, so I’ll just say that my read hasn’t changed. -_-
357 by TBB...as much as I’d love for this to be a scum slip, it’s not, but still terrible. Definitely points to being hyper aware of what he’s be doing as either alignment, making the previous statement completely void.
360 by Muffin...what do you think about my assertions that she was inconsistent with her pushes, and that it’s not about how abrasive she was?
372 by Banana...um, what made Bulb fake it and not elusive?

[singersigner]

So I looked at bulba posts.

He definitely seemed townish

though I am not sure I would be able to tell if he was scum or not....


VOTE: Bulba

Until I get a better scum read or one at all.

Feels town.
Must vote!

[singersigner]

*And I did comment on it. I pointed out that it's not really a wagon.

Yeah I got that, but that's not the point. There was clearly an opportunity to say why it didn't matter, why Muffin cared, what you thought about it.

You stated a fact. You didn't include any of your own commentary. I was asking you why. The closest you've come to giving your own insight/input on the matter is saying that it wasn't worth looking at. That wasn't communicated to Muffin at the time, which would've allowed for a conversation or insight as to why Muffin felt it necessary to say something about it.

My point is, comment like that serve no purpose in advancing the gamestate because it didn't seem like you really cared to learn about Muffin's alignment based on something you clearly had an opinion about.

[singersigner]

@Oversoul:

Wisdom also never responded to my points last night and instead decided to take the opportunity to rehash how I must be scum for making the mistake of trying when I was clearly over my head, failing to explain why that makes me scummy and only reaffirming why he's been terrible this game.

Would not hesitate at a policy lynch,

hence my "would lynch either of them" comment that apparently made me opportunistic once the deciding vote was placed. Good times!

I'm not gunna lie, I'm not going to be willing to avoid your lynch for long.

I'm kind of wondering why you're doing it now.
Why are you doing it now?

UT's the kind of person I can't read. So. I don't.

But he's also not the kind of person I policy lynch.

So. I don't.

Oof, the replacement request has been out for a few days.

I'm not really sure what to do here. Normally in a regular game (especially in larges)

I'd advocate just lynching the slot instead of waiting for a replacement,

simply because it's pretty much in the plan anyway. But...it's a newbie game so I feel like it'd be unfair to disregard the opportunity for a claim.

What I'm talking about is basically a policy lynch=lynching based off of a pre-set standard as opposed to in game related posting.

Other examples include lynching all liars (proven fake claims for example), or lynching someone you've played with in the past who's proven to be a substantially weak player as either alignment (this one doesn't get used as often anymore).[

We know that Ravyn is here, and we can keep him accountable, but I feel like everyone's in agreement that we're working with a scum team anyway. Waiting for a replacement is only wasting our time, AND the replacement's...

On policy lynches...so they are and they aren't scummy I guess.

I'm in the minority of agreeing with them because I think there's a lot to learn from them with regards to why, when, and now they happen.

I would never do it in a newbie game in part because of sheer size of them, as well as because of the setup. I don't think here is the time nor the place to do it, and if you are curious as to my thoughts on the matter, I'm more than willing to delve into specifics after the game. Seeing as y'all are arguing about 'compromising' on a lynch to avoid a no-lynch, it's kind of a moot point? There's a difference between compromising, and policy. I've done it several times to my dismay. It doesn't give town much information on wagons, but allows for information on flips, etc.

[singersigner]

I'm sure there's more if I went further back in my history, but the last quote from a newbie game over a year ago should explain my thoughts on PLs pretty sufficiently.

Were you hoping to catch me lying or doing something out of character? Because I can't make these things up, lol.

[singersigner]

...huh?

[singersigner]

I can't tell if Bulb is scum or massively shortsighted/newb. Does anyone have any experience with him?

Also, I know I'm only on page 16+recent posts, but right now I'd be ok with an Atum, Firebringer, TBB, or mastin lynch.

Any lurkers would also be acceptable: Grib, Gratuitous, ZZZX, PV, PB...all have under 25 posts. q_q

[singersigner]

Oh and singer, did you forget that there is a such thing as newbie 1616? Are you scum purposefully ignoring that fact. Or did you forget? I was scum and you were town. Another one of ky scum games. Compare me to that also. You also get the chance to compare singer in that game.

Yes I did forget about that game. I play so many newbies that I often forget who I've played with. Especially since you replaced in that game and apparently got lynched pretty quickly, so...sorry I was focused more on your scumbuddy that game? And yeah, if you remember it, and you're telling people to compare me to that game, so why haven't you?

Singer, mastin was pretty obvious as town in thise first posts. I find scum hard to fake an emotional wall post like that. I doubt that scum would even come up with that. So why are you know trying to get a new mislynch? So you moved on from elusive?

I understand why you might disagree since you don't have the same level of experience with Mastin, but believe me when I say she can.

Also, lol, elusive is Firebringer. No way am I lynching you now, since that slot's flipping scum.

[singersigner]

Singer, talk to me about Banana Frog

I want the Frog head to post more because I've seen him as both town and scum now and am not as familiar with Plotinus. I feel like Plotinus is town and that Frog thinks his scum game is good so if anything, his lower activity is leaving trust with the fact that they don't have anything to hide.

I just noticed there is a p in Triforces avatar.

Singer might be the SK but we can X that bridge later.

What?! Bulba has been doing plenty of scumhunting...

He's still a strong town read of mine

Singer slot could be "scum" as in "SK scum". I do see it.

I have a scum read on one of these. Hint: it's the one that took the "out" to call me scum in another way other than the way they already know I'm not.

1078 - Singer, I suppose the better question is.. have you ever supported a policy lynch as scum?

I don't know. I only have like four scum games in my site history (most recent was a newbie in December...before that was the 2012 scummies invitational >_>). I imagine I would, though, since it would be consistent with what I do as town.

[singersigner]

Wow Goat's ISO is horrible

Oh look, we agree on something.

Let's do this, then.

VOTE: The Goat

Wholey shit, I would've included The Goat in my PLs but I assumed it was someone posting out of hydra...

[singersigner]

Looks like he has a history of being flaky, though. He was almost replaced out of his last game in January. He also had about 100 posts in that game despite it's speed and length, which is a far cry from this one...

He

was

a third party, though, so I don't really know that it says anything but he doesn't care about this one. -_-

Anyway, PL or bust, as I always say.

That's a lie, I never say that.

[singersigner]

I'm surprised gratuitous wagon has taken off so fast considering he's stayed under the radar for most of the game

Then just tell me what you think of the wagon.

It took three ish pages for it to grow

These sound like conflicting things because 3 pages to get like 6-7 votes isn't really that uncommon?

In any case, how do you feel about it, then, if you think it came out of no where and grew so quickly? Do you think it's on town, on scum, on...? If on town (which is what I"m assuming because of your surprise) then who is scum on the wagon? If on scum...why does it matter how quickly it grew?

[singersigner]

PAGES 16-22

386 by TBB...why do you say you didn’t want to push Bulb is you think he’s scum? What’s stopping you? Also, I thought it was pretty obvious that Bulb was bolding the question Elusive asked, not actually asking himself, so what made you think he was going for townpoints?
390 by Quoth...yes! He’s scum! That’s why! Come see the light!
429 by Maxwell...for some reason I really don’t like the preemptive “not going to have any solid reads until D2” after agreeing that reads’ lists aren’t a bad idea. He’s also preemptively excusing any potential contradictions with his reads, which rubs me the wrong way.
445 by Quoth...I know this was about Gratuitous’ reads, but the comment about Bulb stuck out because I feel the exact opposite. I feel like Bulb’s been OMGUSing practically everyone who’s expressed suspicion of him in the way of snark.
448 by Quoth...how do you feel about any of my comments in my catchup with regard to TBB? I’m surprised you’re null on them but confident on people with considerably less posts from which to gain insight.
452 by Atum...still don’t like this guy!

This is a really awkward request, and almost like he wants Oversoul to prioritize who he would find suspicious like he’s already caught his team.

Ok I think I misread the question but I still don’t get what he’s hoping to learn/gain from that information.
460 by Muffin...why did you acknowledge that you put yourself in there twice but not specify which one you were supposed to be voting?
(on page 20 and I haven’t seen nearly the issues with Gratuitous as others have seen...I have more problems with Bulb than I do Grat at this point)
487 by Triforce...I don’t mind that you draw on your experience with Mastin so much as you are playing to others’ experiences and almost fearmongering Pers into listening to the majority. I’ve rarely deferred to someone’s judgement above my own, and it’s only when I know their ability to read a certain individual is on

point

. What you’re also doing is speaking to him as though you don’t need to decipher an alignment.
Pages 21-22 weren’t that exciting. Lots of fluff.

I will be skimming past the rest since I think there's only a few pages I missed. Otherwise I'm mostly caught up? I see the Kling/mastin thing was literally on the past I replaced in on...thanks for nothing elusive.

Pretty solid scumreads are still TBB, Mastin, and Firebringer, with Triforce, Atum, Maxwell rounding it out.
Non-negotiable townreads are Quoth, Drixxz (ZZZX is lucky he has a hydra buddy to carry him), and PV.

[singersigner]

Singer shut up and vote Grat/Kling.

You can read me as scum tomorrow.

~Sally

vote: The Blue Blur

[singersigner]

why are people following my vote

Is this meant to be facetious or have you just not been following the thread?

[singersigner]

VOTE: Gratuitious
Scumread and lots of info can be possible gain. Some people stayed out of it, which can indicate possible scumteams if he flips scum.

You haven't commented on anything but your own agenda. I'd rather see you flip than Gratuitous, to be honest.

Why do you think Gratuitous is scum again?

[singersigner]

And KC. she thinks I'm scum

Do you think it's unreasonable KC thinks you're scum when your predecessor had 6 posts? Does it make her scummy?

[singersigner]

I get the "easy scumread" part, but are we just not supposed to scumread inactivity? And wait forever and ever? How do you feel about my policy on lynch all lurkers?

[singersigner]

oh, so your problem isn't that she was townreading x, y, and z but should have been scumreading them, or visa versa. Just the presentation/ reasoning given?

That makes a lot more sense. Carry on!

--Plotinus

How does it make more sense? How can PK know the reasoning behind the reads' list doesn't make sense if he hasn't read anything yet? I'm not even really sure how the presentation has anything to do with it, but whatever.

[singersigner]

AKA, the only wagon that's gained any traction.

[singersigner]

My two biggest scumreads are on Gratuitous.

[singersigner]

They definitely do fall under pre-flip associatives. That's why I feel so conflicted about it.

[singersigner]

AKA, the only wagon that's gained any traction.

....are you looking at the same VC that I am?

Or do we have different definitions of "traction" ?

I mean, neither you nor Firebringer has had any major wagon, elusive...ish, but that died early and was mostly from irritation, not people actually seeing the scumminess that I do. So yeah, KC is the only wagon he'd "agree with" so far that's been of popular opinion.

[singersigner]

...yes?

Pretty solid scumreads are still TBB, Mastin, and Firebringer, with Triforce, Atum, Maxwell rounding it out.
Non-negotiable townreads are Quoth, Drixxz (ZZZX is lucky he has a hydra buddy to carry him), and PV.

[singersigner]

The rest are default townreads unless I'm forced to reassess.

[singersigner]

Grat has to come on and convince us he is town.

Burden of Proof much? He's more town than you've been. Why don't you explain why he's scum?

[singersigner]

OMFG CONFIRM VOTE BLUE BLUR SJSKXKNQJXJF

[singersigner]

That's the worst argument I've ever heard.

[singersigner]

Hey Xdaamno is in town and I should've gone V/LA but kind of assumed there'd be a lynch by now. I'm not really going to be around until late Sunday because of it but I'm willing to vote whatever wagon's the largest at this point just to get the game moving.

[singersigner]

@mod...can we get a votecount?

I'll vote for whichever wagon's bigger.

TBB is still scum.

Surprise surprise.

[singersigner]

That's a terrible reason to vote Oversoul, especially since I'm of the same mindset.

(minus the alignment part...I'm pretty meh on any of the wagons right now alignment-wise, except both seem slightly more town than scum?)

[singersigner]

I really don't think Kling is scum, but I am willing to vote her just to end this day so I can focus my attention somewhere.

this is STILL your mindset? really?

Unvote
Vote: Oversoul

Like really? THERE ARE TWO FUCKING L-3 WAGONS, ONE IS ATLEAST CONFSCUM BASED ON HOW NO ONE HAS HAMMERED OR SHIFTED.

THAT IS WHY YOU ARE SCUM.

This is a really shallow and binary way of looking at this. Somehow I'm not surprised this is the position you're taking.

[singersigner]

I didn't see a vote count. It's hard to look back at these things on my phone.

Preview Edit:
Oh ew, I don't like either of those wagons.

vote: Klingon

More of my town reads...maybe less of a shitty options?

[singersigner]

What the duck is going on.

Can someone at least state a case on Grob other than 'meta'.

This is his Scum game. He is not making cases on anyone.

How hard is it to ISO a couple posts on Day 1?

Bulb is also not making cases. Is that his scum game, too? I ask because you didn't seem willing to vote his wagon and are now making it seem like this is a meta scum game on Grib but say look at his ISO like it would be obvious to a neutral observer (as opposed to someone familiar with his play). What makes Grib different than Bulb?

[singersigner]

Singer, bulb has very clearly made cases, since it was the cause of some controversion a dozen pages ago.

You're not normally this sloppy.

-sonic

You're not normally this discrediting. You'll excuse me if all I've personally seen from Bulb has been "x is scum" with nothing to back it up.

Where was this controversy? I haven't read up on the pages I skimmed because Xdaamno was in town so mafia won't get much attention from me again until after work today.

[singersigner]

@mod...how are we supposed to WotC someone we didn't know was going to be in the game before they replace into the game?

[singersigner]

That being said, I'm taking a personal break from mafia until my doctor's appointment tomorrow because I haven't really been able to focus on anything else lately.

If this game keeps being a shit show I'm just going to replace out (I'm looking at people like pisskop who just posted EIGHT TIMES IN A ROW DURING TWIGHLIGHT). I don't like cluster fucked setups, the playerlist keeps getting worse, and I'm not interested in yet another explosive game like this one's turning into (I only agreed to replace in because the game was only at 22 pages on D1). On principal of not having replaced out a game in four years (and only ever having done it once), I'm not going to do that to Titus unless you guys figure your shit out.

[singersigner]

unless you guys don't* figure your shit out

[singersigner]

Oh geez...

@Drizzx...why did you imply that was such a negative utility, when it's basically a free vig the first night, and can protect townreads after that? And why would you apologize for Constantine dying if you chose them/that slot to JK in the first place?

I also see I'm going to be fighting this scumread on TBB which people can't seem to understand. But whatever.

vote: The Blue Blurr

[singersigner]

I'm also scum reading Banana Frog and singer.

You shouldn't be.

[singersigner]

Fuck I just lost my phone post.

TtH and I were also jailed last night. Whoever did it said nothing in the QT. Therefore drizzt is town .. Probably. I need to read the setup wiki. Constantine is town too imo and that whole debate looks asinine.

Why would scum jail you and not take advantage of killing a universal townread?

[singersigner]

Why would town not say anything in the PT?

They might've forgotten about it. *shrug*

[singersigner]

Oh wholey fuck.

vote: Drixxz

[singersigner]

(my condolences )

It has to do with the negative utility claim and soliciting a roleblock/jailkeep of some kind at the beginning of the game. It originally made me townread you, but now that I know what you were attempting to block, it looks like a way to get any possible (now pretty much confirmed) copies of that role away from anyone else (like scum team), or even to potentially confirm that another role existed.

I must've missed if you answered my previous questions about why you wouldn't have treated it like a vig/why you considered it negative utility? Hopefully your other head can address that...

[singersigner]

Anyone that seriously thinks Singer is town at this point should go back to newbie queue.

She hasn't brought up anything about Grat, nor Klingon's flip, while also distracting town by restarting this ZZZX/Constantine debate that is best saved for tomorrow.

~Sally

I can't do NKA, I've never really done or been good at wagon analysis (what exactly did you expect me to say about Kling, again?), and Grat's wagon sprung up way to quickly for me to be comfortable with it (there's my comment). Why not deal with the Drizzx/Constantine thing now? Or are you just setting up more mislynches before the rest of us has time to process what's going on?

Oh wait! Your only option is to discredit the one person who's caught you and actually succeeded in getting others to see the light.

[singersigner]

VOTE: singer

-Frog

You don't want to do that.

[singersigner]

Then why are you voting me? It should be pretty obvious by now.

[singersigner]

"Grat and singer are scum but I feel much more sure about singer."
"We've settled on a Grat lynch today."
*is voting singer*
These thoughts are creating a nice dissonance for settling up the next mislynch.

I really didn't want to be wrong about you...

[singersigner]

Okay, so I am 99% confident that Graticious is scum!

If Graticious is scum, then singer started a counterwagon on Drizzx, or Frog started a counterwagon on singer. I don't think all three of them are town, or even two of them.

There is no wagon on singer other than me. And I'm moving back to Grat as stated. I just want town to discuss singer a bit because she is dangerous as scum. The best way to accomplish that was with an attention grabbing vote.

I know town isn't going for singer today/now so that's why I'm going to go with Grat, who is my second strongest scum read. Singer is my strongest. But of course she'd use this as a way to scum read me now, like there can't be more than one scum. I was fully aware of that going in when I took that stance but w/e

Way to discredit why I would even be scum reading you at this point. I didn't actually believe you were scum but I gave you the opportunity to figure out why I'm obviously not but you're refusing to do so...why? If you really believed I was scum you'd give town something to discuss instead of throwing out a blind accusation.

I get it, you're threatened by my scum game because I fooled you that one time but as scum you'd be equally threatened by my town game you know enough about by now.

Guess what you sound like here.

I'll give you one more time to read between the lines and figure out why I'm not scum.

[singersigner]

because you're the SK, thats why you aren't scum

i've never seen singer this limp and woozy

~sonic

You can't insult me into believing in something I'm not. I'm actually really good at this game and I think I'm right so I'm not going to allow people to convince me otherwise anymore. I'm fucking tired of provin myself only for people to continue not taking me seriously.

You've never resulted to insulting me before so what exactly are you trying to do here? Change my mind about you? Your sheer insistence that I'm the SK might mean you're not mafia (I would even reconsider a couple of y associative scum reads in that case) but actually the SK yourself. Either way you're scum and I've done my job.

[singersigner]

I already explained that I disagreed with the way Drizzx used their role and I think claiming it the way they did got a lot of town cred early on with the potential of drawing another important

town

role. How many other

town aligned

RBs or JKs did they really expect to be in this game (and be balanced) yet they still solicited "help" from a role they themselves had. I think they're willfully not acknlowdging that it was essentially a one-shot vig yet they keep acting like it's all about the numbers and statistically likely they'll be hitting town when with such a large game...who cares! JK your biggest scum read, or the person people can't figure out, or a lurker. And I know this wasn't originally part of my issue, but don't even get me started about "it wasn't my choice!" Because whoooooley shit that hydra dissonance.

Also, I almost never care about D1 wagons. I'm very vocal about getting rid of useless town utility. Did you even read anything I linked to Oversoul? KC flipped town which womp womp but he would've been left alive for mislynch bait later so I don't even feel a little bit bad about getting rid of one of the biggest question marks in the game. It's actually exactly that same reason that I

don't

feel comfortable with a Grat lynch/wagon now. People like TBB keep trying to manhandle it into fruition but of course they would!

Also, also, cases are meh, that's not what I was expecting/looking for, but you claim to have wanted town to discuss me while not giving them anything but a read to discuss. I just think anyone who's wrong has a greater chance of being scum, but your response only left it open for people to do the work for you instead of being transparent and letting people decide on their own. Telling the town to "discuss" only subconsciously plants the idea that I'm scum before they even know what they're looking for (well for less tenured players at least), which is, yes, scummy.

[singersigner]

-_-

Well then, by all means...

[singersigner]

I hope you realize that doesn't negate the issue. You didn't even offer it originally as something you really wanted to follow up on.

But whatever. I got the second wind I needed. When people are ready to vote TBB I'll be ready.

[singersigner]

Nope. Gratuitous is the next mislynch and everyone's falling for it. Saying I'm scum because I'm right is just...ugh, another Purple mafia.

[singersigner]

Page 79

VOTE: honey bee hope I hammered

Your contributions to this game are much appreciated.

Oh wait.

Let's bypass an entire conversation about how someone would like to engage the town and hope the discussion ends as soon as possible instead! \o/

TBB was right. They know exactly how fucked the town is because of posts like this. Geezus fuck, guys...

[singersigner]

Posts/thoughts...same difference.

[singersigner]

Ive browsed portions of Singers meta, and I'm still 70%/30% on them being scum. Their town game is remarkably similar to their scum game in terms of the level of content and the depth of analysis they do, but I certainly can feel the scum in the latter and they do have a tendency to backsass where it isnt neccessary when scum as opposed to a blunt and frank production as town.

What games are you talking about?

I ask because in the last four years I've had exactly three. Of those three, one was as an IC in a newbie game, one was over two years ago, and one I had to replace out after a week.

I also ask because you're not commenting on me or my analysis (mostly in this game where it's relevant), you're just commenting on how my games are similar like an excuse to either be right or wrong depending on how it's convenient to lean.

Though it's true that I've admitted I never roll scum so I don't know what my scum game really looks like in its truest form.

[singersigner]

Is that a conditional scumread?

Mostly. Singer has been null to me all game except for that post. Not only do I think Blue Blur is probably town but she's not even willing to vote for him until other people do, which is showing zero independence which makes me go "hmmm probably a scum trait." (not to say she doesn't have independence in her votes - she does (her bad drixx vote), but it's basically one big "i'm going to follow the town" hidden underneath a show of her voting "independence" because I'm sure she's fully aware that a Drixx lynch probably isn't happening anytime soon, if ever.)

I was voting them literally all of yesterday until KC. I'd be voting them now if Drizzx didn't claim the way he did. And I'm definitely not just standing by letting Drizzx get away with it. It's people like you who aren't even paying attention or just flat out ignoring what I have to say, which means you're either not reading or very conveniently twisting the facts to fit your narrative of what's going on.

[singersigner]

If I had a better sample I'd probs have voted you already.

What does that even mean...

You literally just admitted to confbias because I happened to play like 40 posts' worth of a town-looking game instead of analyzing the difference between the two.

[singersigner]

...

Let me try a different approach...

Can you please comment on my posts regarding Drizzx today and why haven't you yet in favor of an incomplete meta-dive of me?

[singersigner]

There wre definitive differences in you playstyle. Ive listed the largest difference.

Try again.

[singersigner]

Like, the problem I'm having is that you're manipulating what you're looking for because "scum in general" do this, as opposed to "singer in general" does this. Why do you think I got away with my play in Ori? It's because it was a pretty flawless representation of my town play. It actually made me pretty confident in my ability to be scum...which is why it honestly baffles me that anyone would scum read my town play at this point. -_-

[singersigner]

...why? You haven't even given opinions on either of us but you're content following the crowd?

I noticed you haven't commented on my Drizzx points, either. Why not?

[singersigner]

Flubber what were you trying to do with that anecdotal evidence? Could you at least read the last couple of pages and comment on literally anything I've said?

[singersigner]

Two town neighborizing jailkeepers? Yeah right!

HERMIT READ THE GAWDDAMN THREAD. That's why I think it was bullshit that they were soliciting being JKed or whatever at the beginning because it was like they knew that there could be the town version of their role in the game and wanted to draw it out.

I'm fucking tired of repeating myself for people who are selectively reading. Pisskop is the only one who bothered to even humor me, and guess what! He came to the same conclusion! It's like I actually know what I'm talking about or something.

[singersigner]

I'm catching up calm yourself my friend

I'm sorry I just get excited when I can actually convince people to see what I see. I've been right so often lately but it feels like either I have to take care of it myself with a vig or die first and watch town fall apart not listening to me. I just can't seem to successfully articulate what I see in a convincing manner despite that and i feel like pulling rank is just...cocky.

Plus last time I saw someone do that they promised if they were wrong they'd shut up (but didn't) and they ended up being scum anyway. It's not a really constructive way to play a team game, IMO.

[singersigner]

You think I'm scum because I gave an objective list of anyone who had less than 25 posts as being lurkers, and included ZZZX because he posted out of hydra and I didn't connect that? Like...Drizzx and Quoth were my strongest own reads in the game, which I was very vocal about when I was giving reads. Why the fuck would I then call my biggest town read scum for lurking...

The progression of thoughts is whatever. I'm not going to claim I'm consistent, but you're also taking it out of context. Grat was on my list because of being a lurker not because I thought he was scum (which I made clear so breaking it up into a binary scum list versus town is twisting my words), and KC was the one who's wagon I trusted more (which again, I made clear by explaining more of my town reads were on that wagon). In hindsight I think they were both town wagons and I'd be avoiding KC like the plague of the situations were in reverse because you cannot honesty tell me that a KC wagon wouldn't exist right now. How do

you

not see that?

And geezus fuck, frog, if you're going into things you can't talk about right now it should be equally obvious why I was ACROSS THE BOARD not playing mafia for like a week. I had no interest in keeping up or playing at the time but you're ignoring why...

[singersigner]

Like, the problem I'm having is that you're manipulating what you're looking for because "scum in general" do this, as opposed to "singer in general" does this.

Why do you think I got away with my play in Ori? It's because it was a pretty flawless representation of my town play

. It actually made me pretty confident in my ability to be scum...which is why

it honestly baffles me that anyone would scum read my town play

at this point. -_-

So let me get this straight.

- Ori was a flawless representation of your town play
- This boosed your confidence in your scum play (presumably to make it look so much like your town play)
- So therefore nobody should scum read your town play?

But if your scum play is a flawless representation of your town play, then why shouldn't they scum read your town play? You're basically saying nobody should scum read you ever.

Yeah pretty much. You can't scum read me for being

worried

I might be scum. That's like the biggest fallacy ever. I haven't gotten this far in games yet (because I've either been night killed or won the game quickly enough) but I'd imagine that the only way I'd ever be caught as scum is if I'm anywhere near lylo, to be honest.

[singersigner]

I'm not going into things I can't talk about. I just said there are things I can't talk about. That's the last I'm going to say on that topic.

Also, I'm not holding your lack of playing for a week against you. That's not any part of my argument at all.

This what I'm saying, though. If you don't see the difference between the types of games I play and when I play them, you're being blind to the bigger picture.

[singersigner]

I'd imagine that the only way I'd ever be caught as scum is if I'm anywhere near lylo, to be honest.

Or if somebody got a guilty on you, but yeah.

Ah fair enough. It would take considerably weird circumstances for someone to feel the need to investigate me, though. Like...to confirm a townread? >_>

[singersigner]

Well.

It's the difference between speed, confidence, size, and irl.

I think that should explain it to basically only you. >_>

[singersigner]

In fact I dont give a shit.

Im going after singer tomorrow.

1v1 me

Good luck!

[singersigner]

In fact I dont give a shit.

Im going after singer tomorrow.

1v1 me

Good luck!

I all honesty, I actually probably am going to get lynched (if not NKed), though, because of my role and how your team will capitalize on it, but at least people will realize you're scum when I flip.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^
THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT FOR ANYONE AND EVERYONE WHO'S TOWN. REGARDLESS OF HOW I DIE AND HOW STUPID YOU GUYS NEED TO BE TO ENSURE THAT HAPPENS PLEASE AT LEAST LISTEN TO MY READS. I'VE HAD CLOSE TO AN 80% (or whatever 18/23 works out to be...math is hard) ACCURACY RATE IN THE LAST 5-6 GAMES I'VE PLAYED SO IF NOTHING ELSE AT LEAST TRUST I KNOW WHAT I'M DOING NOW.

[singersigner]

the other jailkeeper already claimed scum by not saying anything. jesus, this isnt hard to grasp.

Or maybe they forgot about the QT because you didn't post in it for over 24 hours and they were tired of checking back.

[singersigner]

Quoth didn't claim vig...

Also, confirmed scum, I definitely didn't shoot anyone last night because I JKed my biggest town read. Where did Quoth claim vig???

[singersigner]

It appears upon a second reading that Singer is softclaiming jailkeeper. Why would she claim that now, considering two people just brought up speculation that the role is occupied by scum.

Because I was fucking tired of people speculating it when I know it's not true. Even though that was part of the reason I thought Drizzx's claim was kind of BS, but whatever. It was entirely their claim and the way they went about it/used it, and not their actual role or their D1 play.

[singersigner]

I was thinking about this too, but then I remembered my BEES game where all the flashwagons went from one town to another town.

Mastin, the more I read ^these^ posts the more I want to use my vigilante role on this tonight.

Ok then I'll change my JK target if they actually want to use it...I just didn't want them to be killed...

[singersigner]

Can scum be Jailkeeper in this setup?

Because holy shit we have too many killing roles here

Yes they can, I specifically checked when Drizzx claimed.

[singersigner]

Also Sing would have JK'd us or Zzzx, both of which didnt happen.

Why would I have JKed my biggest scumread over someone who was probably going to get shot?

And I will never protect ZZZX. Not worth protecting regardless of my read, IMO.

[singersigner]

ALSO:

Why would JK be so OP and powerfull that Singer would soft it that lynching her is a terrible idea.

It's not the role it's the person.

I'm really good at this game.

Scum.

[singersigner]

Why would Pidgeon get shot?
Why would you not block yourscum read?

Because Pidgeon was the most universal town read. I've never been a JK before but I take it as more of a protective role than a roll block for scum reads because I expect my scum reads to get lynched and there's too much wifom if a kill is blocked.

I honestly didn't really think about blocking things other than factional kills, though, so I guess that's...my bad?

[singersigner]

Should I rolecop Singer tonight?

I don't see why you would waste it on me considering I basically confirmed something to Quoth I would only know if I was in their QT...

[singersigner]

Singer if youre town you may want to forget this game happened.

You can fear monger me all you want. I'm tired of people telling me I'm wrong when it's usually coming from scum.

[singersigner]

Blocking the "vig"

In a game with an SK running around.

For fuck sake

You seriously think they're anything but town aligned?

...really???

[singersigner]

I can account for mine...I didn't use it...

I thought that would've been obvious by my decision to JK my biggest town read as a protect instead of a vig...

[singersigner]

I don't see why you would waste it on me considering I basically confirmed something to Quoth I would only know if I was in their QT...

Because there have been strong implications that you could be a kidnapper as opposed to a jailkeeper, which would make you scum.

That's not actually something I thought about since I didn't realize there was a difference in titles, lol.

You should probably not decide if you're going to do it publicly and decide if you're going to do it on your own in case any of the weird wifom options happen or you make yourself a target to scum by threatening them with a confirmed. It will be easier to sort out probabilities tomorrow.

[singersigner]

Singer's claim is literally impossible. I am role copping her.

If I die tonight, you guys know what to do!

You're an idiot.

[singersigner]

Singer, what the fuck is your role modifier? We know you are not compulsive, so what the fuck are you?

I don't have a modifier. The wiki says only three negative ones are assigned at random. It doesn't say anything about any other modifiers. Where are you getting that every role should have one?

[singersigner]

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... t_The_Cops

If someone else Has a protective type role, they should say so (not the role, just the fact you have one)

There are multiple roles in each category that can be classified as different things.

Try role fishing more.

[singersigner]

QUOTH DO YOU WANT ME TO CHOOSE ANOTHER TARGET BEFORE I CAN'T DO SO.

[singersigner]

Thats why we need someone else to out.

We seriously cant have 2 kidnappers right?

AHAHAHA.

YOU'RE SO SCUM.

[singersigner]

I probably would've if I'd thought about using it as a vig instead of a protect.

[singersigner]

If I thought I couldn't get you lynched instead.

[singersigner]

[singersigner]

@MS...you're reminding me of the time Wisdom taunted me into self-voting.

Like...why do you want to be JKd tonight knowing I'd be using my kill on you?

[singersigner]

[singersigner]

Who was jailkeeped by Singer last night?

THAT IS A GREAT QUESTION BECAUSE NO ONE SHOWED UP IN THE QT THIS TIME.

It's possible Farside's trumped mine. Why didn't you say anything in the QT, Farside?

[singersigner]

Also ffs this game. What the fuck is even the point in putting a clusterfuck of roles in the game if none of them make sense and we have to default to finding scum the old fashioned way anyway?

Whatever, I only need to know one thing from Farside.

[singersigner]

If I was jailed no one would get a result.

So dumb...

[singersigner]

Yeah there's something else that's reckless too but I need to hear it from her first.

[singersigner]

vote: farside

Then you didn't jail me.

[singersigner]

Oh ffs. There's a non-neighborizing JK in the wiki.

unvote

The who the FUCK didn't post in the QT last night? It was one of two targets.

[singersigner]

Actually. No.

vote: farside

They knew I was attempting to shoot the MIA person and blocked me.

[singersigner]

Someone didn't post in whatever QT I was given last night. It was one of two people. Farside jails me the night my shot fails (I did say I was going to shoot if they didn't post) claiming to have not read anything. You do the math.

[singersigner]

you clamed a qt. farside claims none. 1v1 anyone?

at the leasy your townflip damns her so rejoice

1v1s are horrendously anti-town. Scum thrive on town making those mistakes. My flip only shows I'm telling the truth from my end, not that she's lying. I'm just claiming that her version of the truth is coming from scum knowing too much.

[singersigner]

Someone didn't post in whatever QT I was given last night. It was one of two people. Farside jails me the night my shot fails (I did say I was going to shoot if they didn't post) claiming to have not read anything. You do the math.

THTS BECAUSE YOU CANT KILL ME SINGNER.

KEEP TRYING. KEEP FUCKING TRYING

Actually it was just confirmed that I jailed Quoth. So...why do you keep trying to bait me and failing miserably? lol. Like, are you claiming you had access to the QT?

Preview Edit:
AP...

[singersigner]

Why didn't TTH comment if he saw the PM? I made sure to post right away so I wouldn't forget. Why wouldn't he tell you about the QT?

[singersigner]

Jailing the VIG is going to be seen as an act of scum now since we arent getting deaths here

Fuck off. I know you're scum, but just stop. The vig doesn't prevent the SK or the mafia from killing either so what the FUCK do you think I'm doing that's preventing EVERY KILL IN THE HISTORY OF EVER to be prevented?

And I actually thought they could've been bluffing which might even be true if they were about to claim something they didn't already claim.

[singersigner]

How are you picking out those particular quotes while not reading any of the context or literally any other quotes that explain it further?

Psychotic Neighborizing Jailkeeper. Targeted Quoth both nights.

Why did you target me last night without having read the game?

[singersigner]

I'd lynch HB just so we wouldn't have to wait for a replacement at this point. It's obvious they're not gunna show up. They either forgot about this game or don't care. Either way, win win.

[singersigner]

Anyways, Singer is the inevitable lynch today. Other wagons are just noise, and when Singer flips scum, everyone will realize they were counterwagons.

What the fuck do you keep going on about? Either scum are withholding information that would clear me or someone interfered with your result so it wouldn't clear me. How can you possibly take that as me being "the lynch for today" if that's exactly the fucking point?

[singersigner]

I brought that up earlier. The role is bastard whether town or scum, but give the power unlimited to any scum player, and that is just outright gamebreaking.

Only if they're not caught.

[singersigner]

@farside...I thought you were claiming my role, not just a jail keeper. Because I know you're not going to bother looking it up on your own, that would entail having a QT. Maybe you should try looking at the wiki before asking all of these questions.

If you're not reading the game or doing any of your research, why are you voting me?

[singersigner]

@farside...I thought you were claiming my role, not just a jail keeper. Because I know you're not going to bother looking it up on your own, that would entail having a QT. Maybe you should try looking at the wiki before asking all of these questions.

If you're not reading the game or doing any of your research, why are you voting me?

Because I can.

Why are you voting me?

Also did you look at that link? I'm too lazy to look through it all when I can simply ask instead.

Originally it was because I thought your team coached you on blocking me when they knew I was going to shoot Quoth (which would make them scum, too but they already knew I was being paranoid of that). Unfortunately, that's not entirely out of the realm of possibilities at this point.

Now I just think you're scum for ~reasons~.

And yes, when I had questions about role interactions, etc, I either asked Titus or looked at the wiki. Clusterfuck games aren't my favorite, but I decided I'm not going to let scum win because they're taking advantage of my ignorance.

Okay I read the role singer is claiming, why did you target the same player day 2 singer?

Because I was using it as a protect on my strongest townread. Please read the game.

@Plot...<3?

[singersigner]

VOTE: Singer

No role PM, so singer dies.

Seriously? There are still 5-6 people who haven't even shown up yet.

[singersigner]

You are not wrong.

[singersigner]

You are not wrong.

Okay here is my confusion.
Does the hood/abilty to kill a player go away if you target another player?

Oh I see. It's a one-night thing. We were given a new QT even though we already had one from N1. That's why I had to specifically target them again.

Ok there should have been a cop result if singer was targetted by a cop.

Yes. I was mistaken on how the jailkeep resolved. Which is why either scum is withholding, there's a roleblock or redirect in play, or the very distant Hermit's lying. His claim is a drunk rolecop which would've sent the result to someone else, which is why he's demanding someone claim the role they would've received. You should be able to figure out the rest from there if you were following along today.

[singersigner]

I usually take stubbornness to be a scumtell because town want to help town gain as much information as possible, but I really don't like that so many of your questions could be easily answered if you even ISOd me or read literally any part of the game to get your own opinion

instead of blindly copying the opinion/actions of the person you replaced. To me, that suggests you don't want to be inconsistent with them or their team if they've already set up a trajectory/game plan.

It's not coincidence that your slot has now blocked two of the three claimed power roles in this game, which you can easily sluff off as "not going to read to become informed." I fucking spent 11 hours catching up in a game I had near flawless reads in only to be mislynched because town refused to read through the crap scum was slewing all over the place (aka TBB, aka one of my scumreads this game). I get that not every cares as much at any given moment, and I have my "don't give a fuck" moments, too, but you're not adding up and ignorance will not excuse that.

Why do you claim to have not read my claim but decide to jail a null read (leaning scum over one post) of your predecessor over the person he voted in the end that didn't die (honey bee) or two other actual scumread that he'd been pushing (oversoul and grib/hermit)?

@Everyone, if nothing else, take the bolded away from this post.

[singersigner]

Because you obviously don't look like helping town gain as much info as possible

And what would that look like to you? You're only calling me scum because it's easier to discredit me than prove where I'm wrong...or kill me to shut me up.

@Triforce...that's what I'm saying. Farside's not reading but he's finding quotes to ask questions about like she can't just find the answer within the context because someone else asked or further down my ISO where I've already answered them. It's selective and only to look like she's getting involved.

[singersigner]

If you read farside's posts you would've seen she made a very conscious effort to choose one of Gumball's "scum reads." Which is why I'm calling her out on it.

[singersigner]

Until they didn't show up in the QT and I got paranoid. I also said that. Ffs I don't want to play a game with people who aren't even going to bother reading and make terrible decisions because of it.

[singersigner]

What simple interaction can't I handle and how does that make me scum? I've answered all of your questions despite my annoyance that it'd be really easy for you to find the answers yourself. Do you need to make up another reason I'm scum or do you really think Gumball successfully stopped all five potential kills (that we know of) in the game N1 and knew exactly who would be performing all four that were left?

[singersigner]

Like, what bothers me is that no one else seems to care that there is a

serious

flaw in her Logic that people seem content hand waving away.

She's excusing her actions with ignorance. How is that ok??

[singersigner]

Mafia
SK
Vig (the potential for)
Psychotic Neighborizing Jailkeeper #1 (Drizzx, with a compulsive modifier)
Psychotic Neighborizing Jailkeeper #2 (me)

[singersigner]

Here is the other thing.
It's clear I haven't read the rules or know about what is going on since I started.

But you keep posting hyberbol to make a case.

Anyone looking at the rules it suggest 1 scum team, a vig of sorts and a 3rd party.

and you keep posting ignorance as a defense. Educate yourself and then try to defend your choices.

Can you elaborate on my previous question to you? I'd like you to address why me over his more serious scum reads, and why you didn't care about context (like claims, etc) or why those several kills were missing that you had to wait until the day opened to ask these questions publicly to the thread when you've proven one glance at the OP would've given you those answers.

[singersigner]

I.
Am.
Not.
Compulsive.

There are only three negative modifiers assigned at random. I am not one of them.

[singersigner]

And Firebringer proves why that slot is still scum.

[singersigner]

People are scumreading me for pointing out why Farside is scum?

And I point out that he's still scum [for neglecting to comment on any of the those point] from when I said his slot was scum D1...and you're still confused by what now?

What exactly are people "hating" me for and why hasn't anyone said literally anything about it?

[singersigner]

Not you. Firebringer/elusive.

[singersigner]

Oh man is this actually happening??

unvote
vote: Firebringer

[singersigner]

Oh man is this actually happening??

unvote
vote: Firebringer

Opportunistic.
You called me scum earlier but wouldn't move till a actual train started.
Pathetic.

What's pathetic, is discrediting my vote as opportunistic when I spent the entirety of replacing in D1 trying to get your slot lynched with no success.

There are at least six anti-town in this setup. I can't vote them all at once.

[singersigner]

@mod...V/LA 9/5-9/7.

[singersigner]

@mod...extended V/LA until Thursday, sorry.

[singersigner]

I did shoot night two. You jail kept me.

I've been jailing the same person every night.

[singersigner]

Farside jailed me night two. It's currently D4 despite what the OP says.

[singersigner]

Because it's one shot.

[singersigner]

If singer is town, this game should be put against her town scummy nomination. This is the worst town play I have ever seen.

I'd be more offended if this wasn't coming from scum.

What's fucked up is that I even postulated to Quoth that you were just trying to throw shade on me as town to make scum think it's not worth killing me.

Why do I even second guess myself anymore...

[singersigner]

In fact, anyone that was town defending Honeybee should be modkilled for playing against their wincon

You know who else tried to stick wagons into binary? Titus. Because scum have to be on every town wagons, and scum never bus.

[singersigner]

VOTE: Singer

You blocked Quoth meaning no kills.

This is getting fucking stupid. Im not moving my vote.

What are you even trying to say here...I blocked someone from making a kill? The only way that would've happened is if they were scum because they already admitted they weren't a vig.

[singersigner]

And you think the SK is gunna kill off lurkers becaaaaause?

You either think I'm blocking the SK kill, in which case you're willing to let them walk free, or you DON'T think I'm blocking the SK kill in which case you have to back down on pushing the fact that I'm scummy because I'm "blocking the vig" which seems to be your biggest issue which my choices.

vote: The Blue Blur

Preview Edit:
I'm with Hermit. I'm tired of toxic environments in mafia games, even if it is some idiotic scum tactic. Just stop.

[singersigner]

...what the fuck kills am I blocking?? Do you think they're the SK or do you think I'm protection them? Either way, the fact that you're trying to make it seem like I'm scum for it is fucking mind blowing.

Also, I didn't jail you last night because I think you are scum baiting me leaving Quoth unprotected. I think your claim is full of crap because if you were a doc why would you want me to block you?

[singersigner]

How was that not distracting in it of itself? -_-

And Plotinus, seriously? Like Hermit's annoying, but I'd replace out because of Salamance over him any day. If we're talking policy here, we could at least do it on scum.

[singersigner]

YOU DO NOT GET TO DECIDE ON YOUR OWN HOW THE JUDGE PLAYS.

You seem to be pretty content deciding how I play on your own.

[singersigner]

Triforce, can you explain what the drunk modifier does in relation to the "agent" power?

How do you not know what it does if you're drunk yourself? The wiki is pretty clear on how the role works.

@Triforce...how do you know ninja is a modifier? From what I can an undetectable can be one of three things.

[singersigner]

Can you at least be an asshole in your hydra? It's really fucking hard to ISO people when they constantly post out of hydra.

Depending on Triforce's answer to my question I will be voting one of the two of them.

Preview Edit:
Geezus fuck, Hermit...stahp.

[singersigner]

So if you look at what I claimed and youre

not an idiot like constantine

or stupid tunneling scum like singer, you will vote constantine.

Tia

This implies you don't think he's scum despite voting for him. Why?

[singersigner]

Why would he put the caveat that I'm "stupid tunnling scum" but only say that Hermit's an idiot if not to say that he's not also scum

with

me?

[singersigner]

Whatever, there've still been like six people who haven't posted yet. I'm annoyed that I've wanted to replace out since I replaced in, but don't want this game to end up in a whole slew of apathy with even more replacements that don't care about reading, that scum are just taking advantage of. Salamance still won't even admit that his whole argument for me being scum was that I was jailing the vig who isn't even a vig and people won't see the fucking bullshit he's been spewing all over the thread. I'm just sick of playing in games like this and watching scum get away with it. every. single. time.

Like, I'm still not even convinced Honey Bee was scum who replaced in and decided to immediately go MIA. This is just another thing TBB is pushing like they knew this would happen.

[singersigner]

singer, honey bee flipped scum. they're dead and they're scum. They were a scum drug dealer.

I can relate to the rest though. just put them on ignore and interact with the fun people.

--P

Ehhhh. Whatever. This is why I hate games like these. I'm starting to lose my will to even defend myself against scum and just want people to lynch me (or draw a night kill, whichever!) and use my credibility to get them lynched (or cross-killed, whichever!). I'd advocate for it if I thought it would work, but sadly it still hasn't seemed to change people's minds in recent games.

[singersigner]

Lets post a singer tbb scum theater conspiracy theory and see what happens

If it gets you to take the 1 for 1, you can do whatever you want.

[singersigner]

You can't just fearmonger me into all of a sudden changing my mind.

[singersigner]

VOTE: ronit (Bulba's replacement)

Bulba was a counterwagon to Honey Bee.
Firebringer was the other.

Both are town.

You were in Dead on Arrival so I know you know this method is crap.[/quote]
THIS IS WHY I NEEDED AP TO TALK TO ME ABOUT MASTIN.

[singersigner]

Except for the fact that if I was scum, my role would've been "kidnapper" which was my whole misunderstanding on D2 when I didn't understand why anyone would bother wasting a role cop on a confirmable role. It's because there was fear that I wasn't a jailkeeper, but the scum equivalent of a kidnapper. I'm too tired to look for the conversation right now.

Anyway, my theory was that scum was withholding a clear result on me for ambiguity, but then it turned into Hermit just not doing it in order to et a clear on me, but then Triforce brought up the ninja modifier so matter-of-fairly it made me second guess

him

. It's like everyone has something to claim that could implicate someone else but could be fucked by someone else's results which we might not know about until we make the wrong choice anyway. Seriously. Fuck this game. It should really just be considered mountainous because the whole design is around mod entertainment, not the betterment of the players'. -_-

[singersigner]

There are things I'll get to after work re: Triforce, Oversoul, and Banana Frog...I think that covers my reminder...

[singersigner]

Sorry I'm apparently really bad at forgetting about things I need to go V/LA for. >_> Also, Oversoul is likely town because he's not sucking up to me in the same way he did in Purple.

V/LA through Saturday.

Vote: ronit

[singersigner]

Sorry to do this to you guys again, but I have another unexpected surgery since my last one didn't take.

@mod...V/LA through next Wednesday