Doctor Who Mafia 2- GAME OVER!

[cicero]

vote the ninthlayer

because his/her avatar both annoys and titillates me.

[cicero]

So it looks like we've got rid of the Cult straight away. Its good to know thats one scum group out of the way immediately.

Also a scum dead on night 1 too? Great work.

This is a good start.

Vote: TaffMaster

The "OMG good night for us" comments are pinging my scumdar.

QFT

Unvote. Vote Taffmaster

And can we all try not to turn on each other for fast wagoning? This one is kinda blatantly obvious and I want a piece of it too.

[cicero]

Aisar- Please do not spam needlessly. It clutters the thread and generally makes me cross. You don't want to make me cross. Also, please try and set a good example for others, by keeping your language clean. Again, unnecessary swearing makes me

very

cross.
BM

They aren't allowed to swear in their $10 forum. It's very strict there actually. So apparently they need to come to another board to misbehave (swear, troll, insult) in a manner that would not be tolerated at somethingawful.com.

QFT

Unvote. Vote Taffmaster

And can we all try not to turn on each other for fast wagoning? This one is kinda blatantly obvious and I want a piece of it too.

WHEN THIS GUY TURNS UP TO BE TOWN DONT BE MAD AT ME FOR VOTING HIM

Yes - if you turn out town everyone can lynch me next. Seems kind of a moot point to me since that was the scummiest "hey guyz I'm teh skumzz" post I've seen so far on mafia. It made me wince *before* I saw that anyone had voted you. If you are town, you don't know how to play. What did you expect to achieve from a post like that exactly?

"Hey guys...I shoore AM yore buddy. I are so happy we done so well!"

Surely you can see why it looks forced... and therefore fake... and therefore scummy, right? Since that post you and your friends have acted like people finding it scummy is preposterous. Which is either deliberately disingenuous or simply addled. And rather than just realise that the thing MIGHT be scummy, you and friend decided that it must be that everyone on the site - you know the site dedicated to mafia where a bunch of these guys do a ton of games at once and have for years (a description which does not include myself) - was stupid and worked to turn into another ridiculous little forum spat.

For the record, it isn't just that the "wiki says so" and people blindly follow it. It's that tells come up repeatedly. Part of thought includes using memory to recognise patterns. Just like it isn't a problem for me when people say "Hey - the way cicero joined the wagon could totally be scummy". I'd say fair enough and explain why I did it and my thought process like this, which I will do now:
-------
Yes, I found it a little scummy even myself - but I had already seen his post and reacted to it exactly the same as 5 other people. A big red *SCUM* flag went up. In my post I was saying that even though in most cases a fast wagon can look really scummy, in this case it's very understandable because he made a very typical noobscum mistake.
------------------

Notice how my response isn't about how someone's "mafia dick got hard"?

[cicero]

Because thats what Tar always does. My meta>yours.

"Guys, guys, we should totally base our observations of the game off of things that people do out of the game. If some guy is always a lurker, we shouldn't call them out for lurking. If some guys gets huffypuffy, we shouldn't call them out for getting emotional. Logic? Reason? Those things are HARD."

Wow, you are dumber than BM.

haha! I hope you brought your modkill antidote.

[cicero]

Why are people starting to vote Mastermind of Sin in this game??

[cicero]

It being night congratulation.

Huh?

[cicero]

Because the majority of players in this game appear to be sticking to formulas and damn them if they are wrong. Hell, the most annoying post in this whole game for me so far was this one

QFT

Unvote. Vote Taffmaster

And can we all try not to turn on each other for fast wagoning? This one is kinda blatantly obvious and I want a piece of it too.

Why? Because a player comes along, puts a vote on and then says basically "if he flips town lets not blame each other because he said something that we all know is a scum tell". What? Then what are you going to do if you lynched me and I flipped town, look at the players who didnt vote for me?

The vote was fast and fleet, which was the reason for my annoyance. YEs it was only 6 votes when 14 is a lynch, but those 6 came in an hour and a half, whats to stop me running to the store and coming back to find myself on Lynch -2. Players coming in, adding nothing to the game except to say "YES I AGREE VOTE TAFF" or "QFT VOTE TAFF" well that is dumb. Explain your vote. Use reasoning. Otherwise curse the town, because if the townies arent willing to put reasoning behind their votes then neither are the scum, and if the scum dont have to use reasoning then it makes it harder for us to find a trail later in the game.

Go read Post 85. It lives on page 4. You probably missed it in the big distracting

poop

storm that followed.

[cicero]

This is a reply to 287 by Taff

It isnt robotic. You did a common scumtell. You want people to ignore things that have been shown to be relevent following repeated play. It's called experience. People who truly care about "reasoning" do not ignore experience.

If you think what we did is scummier than what you did then vote away. if you think I'm a big badass bandwagoning scumm-o then vote for me. I'm fine with it. But quit your whiny slander of the whole damn website.

Personally, I think sucking up to the town like that is something that noobish scum who don't know better do. I wouldnt have lynched you over it. But I wanted heavy pressure applied quick and I wanted on to the wagon. And I anticipated that someone would say exactly what you are saying - which is "OMG fast wagon! Scumm-os". Which left me with a bit of a dilemma. I wanted to register my opinion that what you did was really scummy but knew from experience what the reply to the wagon would be. Basically your response to the wagon is no less "robotic" then the accusation you are making. It's like clockwork:

1) Scummy move early in day one

2) Bandwagon against scummy move.

3) Accused man's retort. OMG Bandwagon fast! Scummies!!

So you are totally clockworky too my unoriginal friend.

but that's how discussion starts on here.

I was pre-empting what *I* thought of as the trite response. So if you are going to attack robots, you can't in the next breath attack me for calling the "robotic" response correctly.

And I'm not stupid - I fully expected to be challenged by someone on what I posted there. And don't mind a bit. It helps generate another branch of discussion.

So finally - some advice. Stop generalising about the site and it's playstyle. It'll be less distracting and therefore just a little more "townie". If you think the play is robotic just say "I think that's robotic" and try to get the "you guys are dumb" smug superiority out of it. The wiki doesn't make robots. It's just a repository of guidelines that are useful benchmarks for behavior that has repeatedly been engaged in by informed minority (scum) players on a site that has a massive amount of experience to draw from. You came over on a field trip to learn. Now you learned. And remember a scumtell doesn't mean you ARE absolutely scum. It just means in this case you did something that felt really really scummy to a bunch of us.

And we didnt lynch you. Day one wagons practically never go all the way to a lynch before you get back from the store. So in that respect you are attacking a straw man. Hell - let me tell you a dirty little secret. just to make you feel better...

if you had gotten NEEEEEAR a lynch, I would have jumped off the damn wagon myself. Because a day 1 with no information and one scum tell is useless. And I wouldnt have been the only one. The townies would have jumped off to collect more information before night and the scum would have jumped off to look town. It's more of our "robotic" play. But a noob - the kind that would do what you did - wouldnt know that. And might freak out! Then maybe his more experienced scumbuddy would come to his rescue! Who knows what we would uncover under that rock!

Useful, eh, this robot stuff?

[cicero]

Do you know how stupid/scummy you are going to look when one of us turns up town? I'm just asking.

You seem awfully informed about who the townies are for an uninformed minority.

The question itself is really kind of newbie. No offence. I'm hardly a three year veteran at this but let me answer your question directly while ignoring the flippant snarl embodied in it.

I won't look scummy at all if you turn up town as long as I am addressing scummy behavior and making a good case against you. I will look scummy if I make dumb cases against people, make scummy moves (such as those listed in the wiki) or act in ways that derail discussion and distract the town.

Are you suggesting we don't dare call you out when we think we see scummy behavior? Because so far all I see from you is fear-mongering. "If you lynch us and we're town, you're scum and you'll get lynched so don't fuck with us, buddy". It's another scumtell. Attempting to silence your critics that way. If you get lynched and turn up town it will mean that some the people on the wagon are town. They would *have* to be. So some people wouldnt be scum. They would just be wrong.

Conversely, if Taffmaster showed up as scum - I'm not necessarily a townie. I could be bussing him or distancing him. As the game progresses you'll find that all the "robots" on here start to look at things very very bloody carefully.

In the meantime, I'm not really the type to let you bully me because I fear for my own neck while I ignore your scummy behavior. For-get it. Go find a pigeon to scare off the sidewalk with your scary arm waving.

I can just return the question: "Do you realise how scummy YOU'LL look if you lynch me and *I* come up town? Since you tried to bully me away from scumhunting?"

Do yourself a favor. Quit jumping up and down and just make a case. Play nice with the other children. Being accused of being scum isn't a moral indictment. It's just a guess that Taff is playing for the other team. Which I may or may not change as time goes on.

[cicero]

Can you all cut the distracting nonsense out please? There are trolls in this thread. Albert is one of them. Don't feed him. I'm barely posting because what I post gets swallowed up by this crap and am already considering replacing out of this and 71. I probably wont. I want to just wait it out but please: pretty please. enough. You are just encouraging people to lurk which makes it easier for scummy lurkers to hide.

[cicero]

I'm seriously done here. I am asking for a rep, and I promise you I will never play on MS ever again. You guys are, simply put, the stupidest louts in the world. I have never seen stupider people. I'm not exactly surprised, nor am I emotional. My time is just far too valuable than to waste with you people.

I am a vanilla townie. Good job outing me. I hope you guys the best in your retarded little game on your retarded little forum. You guys suck at mafia.

You will not be missed.

[cicero]

Do yourself a favor. Quit jumping up and down and just make a case. Play nice with the other children. Being accused of being scum isn't a moral indictment.

It's just a guess that Taff is playing for the other team.

Which I may or may not change as time goes on.

Ok, first you accuse me of being scum. I can take that. But now you accuse me of being gay?!?!?!

This actually made me laugh out loud. Thanks

[cicero]

Cicero......I think you missed my post in the midst of all this rubbish ?

Probably. There's been no shortage of rubbish. A vast amount of it by you. Which post and why is it important?

[cicero]

In short, your thoughts on my team....don't call me gay.

I dont have any thoughts on you yet at all except that you are overbearing. I assume you are overbearing as scum and town and will therefore be hard to read. I leave people like you to players than can meta you.

[cicero]

I havent played with Albert before. I'm in two games with him right now. I'm not initially enjoying it but I hope to warm up to him eventually. I'm sure he's fine when he stops trying to out troll the trolls.

[cicero]

If you use the drop down menu it does count. the post numbers go away and are replaced with just a count for the player. Usually this is a pain in the ass to me but it would suit your purposes, Xythar.

[cicero]

Taffmaster's vote against Yosarian was not a scumtell. It was a political statement. I'm not counting it against him. At least not in the same way that ChronX is. But I'm still voting him for his previous actions.

At the same time I am dismayed by Tarhalindur, annoyed by ABR, and absolutely disgusted by Aisar.

Starting with Tar - I agree with Aisar's points against him - in the sense that consistency is required - one should indeed note that the idea of a self righteous policy lynch could occur for a couple of reasons. One being actual moral outrage and the other being feigned moral outrage. But I am particularly unimpressed with him refusing to defend himself. Arguing in favor of policy lynches and then engaging in behavior that might attract one if at very least ironic.

Then ABR comes in and yells that anyone who would think Tar is scum is retarded. My response: please stop yelling and insulting. You just look distracting and therefore scummy. Aisar's points on Tar may or may not be correct but they are totally valid. If he wasnt writing so rudely they might have gotten traction too.

Aisar - well... what needs to be said. Replying to several pages of forums with snotty QFT and aggressively insulting and attacking anyone that disagrees with you is preposterous behavior.

Frankly I'm a bit irritated with what I see as a kind of "Guerilla mafia" play by experienced MSers like ABR and Tar. Basically, the idea is to act scummy in all your games so that over time you develop a kind of meta-immunity to scumtells.

Personally, I think a great policy answer to the above would be to just systematically lynch every experienced player behaving like that so that over time scum couldnt hide that way and people would have to play better. So I need to bite down on my urge to say - OK Town, let's just lynch all the people who've been pains in the ass today and let the chips fall where they may. Hell we're off to a great town start if not now, then when? You're so big on policy lynches, Tar, what do you think of that one?

I'm also of the opinion that if I hear one more person sparking forum rivalry with "you MSers are stupid robots" post (or any other demonstrable baseless strawman) I hope someone traces your IP address, finds your house, steals your computer and gives it to needy children, who hopefully will find something useful to do with the damn thing. Life's too short.

[cicero]

Starting with Tar - I agree with Aisar's points against him - in the sense that consistency is required - one should indeed note that the idea of a self righteous policy lynch could occur for a couple of reasons. One being actual moral outrage and the other being feigned moral outrage. But I am particularly unimpressed with him refusing to defend himself. Arguing in favor of policy lynches and then engaging in behavior that might attract one if at very least ironic.

Some of the above is wrong. Tar hasn't refused to defend himself explicitly in this game. Please disregard that aspect of this post - with my sincere apologies.

[cicero]

I am really tired of Taff's emo soft claims. Taff, come out and EXPLICITLY claim your role, since I have quoted 2 or 3 of your posts where you pull the "the town will be sorry" crap. Your play is horrible, and I am tired of you beating the horse that you are being victimized for your post night celebration. I, personally, wasn't thinking you were scum on the sole basis of that...I felt the small wagon over it was fine, but wouldn't have supported lynching you on just that, nor did I vote for you in that phase. But you have given off a huge reek of scumminess since then.

The town will be sorry because I am a town player, not because of my specific role. I'm not saying I'm a cop or a roleblocker or a doctor or THE Doctor because that would be a dumb thing to do this early in the game if I was, I'm saying I'm town aligned and therefore the town would be sorry in the same way they would be sorry did they eliminate a vanilla townie or a power role because ultimately a townie dead is a loss for the town.

By the way,

##unvote

OK fine -You know that saying that means absolutely nothing, right? I mean just from an ego perspective, I'd rather lynch someone claiming vanilla townie and be wrong then NOT lynch someone claiming it and have them turn out to be scum. Because in the second case, they can totally go "haha. suckers."

So, quit claiming it and show it. Who do you think is scummy in here. and why? Who would you like to question and about what. What should the town do at the end of today? Who should we lynch if not you?

[cicero]

@taffmaster - I agree with much of your post. More later. But right away, I need to clarify:

absolutely do NOT want you to claim. I'm not pressuring you to do so. If anything, please consider this a request that you do not until you are much closer to lynch (Lynch minus one). I didn't address this directly in my last post because you had already responded to ChronX the way I thought you should.

[cicero]

@taffmaster - I agree with much of your post. More later. But right away, I need to clarify:

absolutely do NOT want you to claim. I'm not pressuring you to do so. If anything, please consider this a request that you do not until you are much closer to lynch (Lynch minus one). I didn't address this directly in my last post because you had already responded to ChronX the way I thought you should.

Good, because if you were asking anyone to claim at lynch -7 then that would have been pretty scummy.

Yes, which is why I'm doing this:

Unvote. Vote ChronX

Well, that and his whole "I vote without reasons" stuff. You're on the scumteam, ChronX. You're just better at it than some of these others.

[cicero]

For the record, I would PREFER that YOU stop telling us how town you are, as opposed to you claiming.

But if you ARE going to keep on with claiming town, then I want to pin you down to what your purpose in the town is.

This is terrible. You know better. Just because some player is jumpng up and down claiming to be town doesn't mean you get to rolefish him. Just the opposite. You should be telling him to shut the hell up before he does decide in his exasperation to tell us any power role he might possess.

Just because we have some yahoos in here and you are a good player doesn't mean I'm going to let stuff like this slide.

[cicero]

Why is my text like that? O_o

[cicero]

At the moment Albert and FlameAxe are both clearly acting like they dont give a fuck, but from looking at their history thats how they play. I dont think thats entirely beneficial to the town. Especially Albert trying to rush the town into a lynch right now.

I don't think your

role

is beneficial to the town.

OK Albert - so let's say we have a bead on Taffmaster and he's scum. Who else? What do you think of the fact that we have three complete lurkers? Should we end the day with zero contribution from them?

[cicero]

Why are you cap-locking that?

[cicero]

EMPHASIS

[/b]

What I mean is - why are you emphasizing it? Are you yelling at him? If so, why? Are you exasperated? If so, why?

[cicero]

I am here, I was away for the weekend and the thread wasn't up before I left. I have read the thread but wish to re-read before I comment on much.

I will put down a tentative

vote cicero

for trying to force a claim. I have many more suspicions than that - but I REALLY think trying to force a claim out on day 1 is scummy.

Where are people getting the idea that I did that? Why does this myth persist?

[cicero]

ABR, Are you referring to Mafia 71 where he did it as a joke response to what I said? If so, you missed his joke. If it's more than that, let me know.

[cicero]

Oh hush up about ongoing. He raised a meta that wont wreck other games and I asked him a yes no question.

[cicero]

Day 1s in large games last months here? You need a SA account!

It can. Let's say it's not unusual these days for a mod to have to use a deadline in order to stop day 1 for lasting more then a month. That's a recent trend of this site, and not a good one.

It's because the axiom has become impatience = scum. so anyone trying to end the day is clearly scummy. We've become trapped in an endless limbo of suck.

[cicero]

I am who I am, and that is all I am.

You're Popeye?

[cicero]

I have a game setup question maybe for the mod - maybe for others:

I'm not a big doctor who fan. I joined this game because BM dangled the idea that there would be some really interesting roles up for grabs. (And no - that aint no soft claim). For BM - would watching the new Who and torchwood be enough to grasp the major flavor or do I need to delve further into the 30 years.

For everyone else - I know Daleks, Slytheens(sp?), Cybermen, and Face of Boe now. Are there any other really MAJOR recurring enemies or friends of the Doctor that I should check out?

[cicero]

That's enough to go on. Thanks much. Sorry for the momentary distraction. Please return to your regularly scheduled accusations of treason.

[cicero]

Chronx, this isnt meant to be role speculation. And I know the show's been around for 30 years. I just needed the high points. You know - if it was Star Trek I'd want to know to read up on Romulans, Klingons, Borg, Mr. Spock etc. It's just a high points thing. I know it can't be complete. I'm not going to use it for rampant speculation. I'm just getting a base.

--------------------------------

As for your point - I think there is a fair one that needs to be addressed. In a game that promises rich flavor from a SUPER rich medium, scum can safely claim practically anything. If anything, knowing that it was limited to the new series would help to limit fake claims by scum.

I think we have some serious role claim problems to deal with as the game goes on. But we have no choice but to follow the usual pattern. Get suspicious players near to lynch, hear their claims, assess belief, await counter-claims, figure out if we can test them. The usual.

[cicero]

Hi. I'm Niv. Let's get to lynching scum, plzkthx

Sounds good. Who do you suggest? kthxbai.

[cicero]

So if it's a matter of semantics, Shanba, does that change your feelings on ChronX? Does he still deserve your vote?

[cicero]

Yes, because I feel he's reaching in his attack on Taff.

And what about me? You clearly made several remarks about my scumminess but didnt follow through. Where am I at on your scumdar at this point? And have you completed reading the game or did you actually just give up? Is your vote and other suspicions based on complete or incomplete information at this point?

Sorry to press you - I appreciate how utterly annoying a thread this is to read - but... you still must be pressed.

[cicero]

You're second. And yes, I've just given up. Don't worry, I'll continue from where I got to eventually. Yes, it's based on incomplete information. Still, it's not

bad

information - it's still applicable.

That's fine. Just getting a clear picture. I'll pay attention to you when you are caught up .

Personally though I think you should unvote until you are - even though I agree with you on the potential scumminess of ChronX. It's a matter of principle thing. I think you voting based on incomplete information could be scummier than most other people's play. It only doesn't bug me too much because:
a) we are nowhere near lynching anyone, and
b) the thread has been a royal pain in the ass.

but it doesn't seem to me to be the most townie thing in the world to do. You should use FOS's instead. I'd be happy to have you on the bandwagon after you've read the whole thread.

As for your accusations against me - I can't add more to most of them than I already have. You don't "buy" my answers. Not much I can do about that. If you have follow up questions I'll gladly address them.

The only one I can add to is the Mastermind of Sin question.

My answer would be this: I was pointing out that people appeared to be voting someone for no reason and requesting clarification in case I missed something. I don't see the scumtell there.

[cicero]

Why did you guys ignore this?

I AM SCUM LYNCH ME PLEASE I CANT PLAY ANYMORE HOPE YOU HAVE A GOOD DAY 1 =)

Thanls for that. I missed this post entirely. I meta'd him just now. He's a lying little dick. He claimed cop when he was a townie in his newbie game. He hates that the games here take so long. I wouldn't trust anything he said because I think he hates the site and is a childish brat. BM can modkill him or replace him as he deems appropriate.

Town can vote him for an easy scum kill but don't be surprised if he turns out to not be scum. He acted like a shit in his newbie game.

[cicero]

Jammys not a bad player on SA, I think you guys just fustrate a lot of us guys because we have different styles of playing and tells, hence me blowing up earlier.

I wont be asking to be replaced.

Being frustrated by the customs of a foreign land and responding by acting like asshats. You know that is the stereotype of Americans all over the world, right? Tell your friends: Way to keep that going!!

Anyway - if you can meta him Taffmaster - what would YOU do with the information you just presented? Lynch him, ignore him, get him replaced, have him modkilled?

[cicero]

A trip over to Somethingawful (specifically their mafia discussion thread starting on...oh say page 154) suggests that a number of them have contempt for this board - primarily it's slow pace - and looked forward to screwing with the games here. I know it isn't all of them by any means - but I highly doubt that we've seen the last bit of trouble from the field trip. In this or other games.

[cicero]

I didn't get it but I don't think you should be revealing your role until you are ar L-1, Taff. Apparently to the Doctor Who heads it doesn't matter cuz they know you're role now. Which is too bad. You are way further from a lynch then you think.

[cicero]

There was total damage control going on. It was just for the town not the scum. I couldn't assume that he was actually scum because he was such a shit that I thought he would have said he was scum whether he was town or scum. I went and looked and read his newbie game, where I found this absolute gem:

I also dont understand how you pricks havent finished a day of Mafia in 14 goddamn real days. Are you guys just prissy ass girls or what? Be a man and make a decision and quit pussy-footing around. Even if you have to lynch me, your cop, then go ahead because it just shows how stupid you are.

But seriously, learn how to play Mafia faster than 2 weeks for 1 day.

And decided that he was just interested in wrecking things and what he said couldn't be trusted. So truth is that at that point the game was going so crappy with the SA people that I was more interested in him not getting what he wanted. I wanted to cast doubt on whether he was scum or not and I hoped Battlemage would replace him with another player who would go - "oh he just said that because he's a shit I'm really town". Then the game could go on as normal. And it had nothing to do with being scum or town. It had everything to do with being pissed that people were so disrespectful of the work that battlemage put into creating the game. This wasnt just open mafia. Clearly BM put a lot of work into this. And to have someone just jump up and yell I'm scum, is a really shitty thing to do.

In order to find what I did scummy you would have to assume that I wouldn't have a motive to do what I did as a member of the town. Can you say that?

(Can I still I'm still a bit upset? )

[cicero]

Oh - I should have pointed out - in that game he (Jamuuran) was townie but wasn't the cop. So I found him to be a complete bullshitter.

[cicero]

Mod: Can you replace the people that haven't posted at all, like theninthlayer

[cicero]

It's day 1 and there's 1... maybe 2... scum left in the game? oh. this should be fun.

[cicero]

It's day 1 and there's 1... maybe 2... scum left in the game? oh. this should be fun.

Um..no Cicero. The Slitheens appear to exist from BM's post and they will likely be a full mafia group.

God, I hope so.

[cicero]

I replace in. Whoo! All love me. Uh, there's also some speculation about bad guys and good guys and stuff. Yah. Uhm. Didn't get too much outta that.

This made me lol. Good effort. Thanks.

[cicero]

Not to spoil everyone's fun but...

For the record, I don't think Roach is scum and I don't know what people expect to get out of this wagon since Aisar already claimed vanilla townie.

Aisar was a bored asshat from another site throwing a hissy fit over what he saw as our formulaic application of a scumtell. He claimed vanilla townie and I believe him.

I've played with Roach once before. I predict his play will be distracting and likely look very scummy.(in our last game, he actually WAS scum btw) and he will eventually get lynched. I predict once dead he will probably turn up vanilla townie (but that there are still worse things that could happen to be honest).

By all means though, please continue. I have no inside info or monopoly on the truth. Just getting my opinion on the record. Part of me would loooove to vote for him because I think he might prove a liability later. I'm sure no one would blame me if I did vote for him. But at this point, I will not.

Note that this is the opposite of my opinion of Jamuuran who claimed scum and who I did not necessarily feel could be believed. So - what the hell do I know? I don't know. Just as far as I'm concerned I can't separate scumtells from people upset at the way the game is played on this site.

Just going on the record.

[cicero]

Told ya.

There's plenty of room over on my ChronX wagon though, if you guys want to stop kicking puppies and start playing for real now.

If you want to lynch Roach EVEN THOUGH he's obv townie though... well... I guess that would remove an irritating player AND give me lots of wagon jumpers to lynch.

[cicero]

If you want to lynch Roach EVEN THOUGH he's obv townie though... well... I guess that would remove an irritating player AND give me lots of wagon jumpers to lynch.

Im either staying on here, or switching to you. Which would you prefer?

I'm supposed to choose between equally incorrect plays? Do what you want.

[cicero]

Equally incorrect, cicero? I think roach is probably pro-town, but you seem to be as sure of his alignment as you are of your own, and that seems odd.

I don't KNOW anything. I believe his claim and I thought Aisar was town. An asshat, but a town asshat.

ABG and you I have no opinion on.

Seems like you can assemble a three vote wagon on me. Get at 'er. Seems like a better way to spend the town's time to me.

Albert - what's your case, you great brawling yewling trollish piece of filth?

[cicero]

By the way - that doesn't mean I'd believe everyone's claim. The Slytheen dress in people suits don't they? I bet they have very lovely safe claims. Which we should definitely consider carefully.

But my gut believes Aisar was town.

[cicero]

Sorry folks, it's been hard for me to get into this game. Having a huge slew of replacements early tends to do that for me.

But still, Cicero's attitude is suspect. Yos has it right, he seems

awfully

certain of Roach's alignment. Much more certain than he has any right to be.

I know Cicero said something earlier I didn't like either, so I'm going to go ahead and

Vote: Cicero

at this time.

No problem. But please go back and do a re-read of my posts - preferably a full re-read. If you still want to vote me please present a case I can respond to.

As for my assuredness - go read Aisar. He was too pissed off to play anymore and too self-righteous to lie. Play the odds. That's what I was doing. And then poof - Roach comes up with the name of Rose Tyler's very good guy dad.

Think it through guys. Think it through.

[cicero]

The earlier thing you did was vote Taffmaster in your second post, calling it "blatantly obvious," saying "I want a piece of this too." This was due to the "tell" of him saying "Great Night!" in his first post.

I thought Taff's remark was suspect too. But I'd never go so far as to call it "blatantly obvious." Not so early on Day 1.

Yes. I remember doing it. Please read everything after it. The scumtell was indeed blatantly obvious. We had quite a discussion about it too. Like I said - please go read and then if you want to keep your vote on me go right ahead. I really don't want to re-argue again something I discussed at some length all ready.

[cicero]

The earlier thing you did was vote Taffmaster in your second post, calling it "blatantly obvious," saying "I want a piece of this too." This was due to the "tell" of him saying "Great Night!" in his first post.

I thought Taff's remark was suspect too. But I'd never go so far as to call it "blatantly obvious." Not so early on Day 1.

Yes. I remember doing it. Please read everything after it. The scumtell was indeed blatantly obvious. We had quite a discussion about it too. Like I said - please go read and then if you want to keep your vote on me go right ahead. I really don't want to re-argue again something I discussed at some length all ready.

Are you saying you just meant that the "tell" was obvious, and not that it was obvious that Taff was scum?

Have you given a current opinion about Taff?

I don't feel like re-reading everything right now. Sorry.

The tell was obvious and glaring and well worth an initial bandwagon. I was proud to be a member.

Haven't ultimately made up my mind about his scum vs. townness at the moment.

I am pondering whether he is townie or not. He is probably town. But that's mostly just a numbers game. I also was compelled to some extent by his defense. But I'm just watching him right now.


For the record, not to totally OMGUS you but I'm noting your willingness to throw around uninformed votes in this game. Not enough for an FOS. Just noting it for the moment. How do you justify that kind of play?

[cicero]

For the record, not to totally OMGUS you but I'm noting your willingness to throw around uninformed votes in this game. Not enough for an FOS. Just noting it for the moment. How do you justify that kind of play?

Considering I have "thrown around" exactly one vote this game so far, I'm not quite sure where you get this from. I rather think you have been doing more "throwing of the votes" than me.

How is that an answer to the obvious question posed. It is ok to cast one ininformed vote then? I'll make it more direct:

Why are you jumping on a bandwagon with imperfect information.

Is it because you don't care if a townie gets lynched?

Why are you using weasel words to ignore the original question?

[cicero]

How is that an answer to the obvious question posed. It is ok to cast one ininformed vote then? I'll make it more direct:

Why are you jumping on a bandwagon with imperfect information.

Is it because you don't care if a townie gets lynched?

Why are you using weasel words to ignore the original question?

How exactly do you expect him to answer those questions...I mean, you might as well ask "Are you scum?"

Additionally, it's one vote. Your reaction to it is very interesting since you soft-claim town: "you don't care if a townie gets lynched".

Why are you defending him? Let him answer his own questions don't you think? It's how we generate discussion. That's the joy of a good wagoning. It's also a useful rhetorical way of drawing attention of the town to his scummy behavior.

Additionally - I'm not soft-claiming anything. Everybody is town until proven otherthise. A soft claim is a hint at a power role. not a hint at towniness. Everyone is always soft-claiming towniness by virtue of their entry into the game. What I am pointing out was that that particular vote was opportunistic or uninformed and therefore a potential slip by scum or bad play by a member of the town.

As for this "interesting reaction" stuff. What makes it interesting to you? What conclusions do you draw from it?

Are you of the mistaken impression that Axelrod was the only player voting for me or considering voting for me? At what point would my reaction - asking him to cast an informed vote and pressing him when he said he couldn't be bothered - been appropriate by your way of playing?

[cicero]

For the record, not to totally OMGUS you but I'm noting your willingness to throw around uninformed votes in this game. Not enough for an FOS. Just noting it for the moment. How do you justify that kind of play?

Considering I have "thrown around" exactly one vote this game so far, I'm not quite sure where you get this from. I rather think you have been doing more "throwing of the votes" than me.

How is that an answer to the obvious question posed. It is ok to cast one ininformed vote then? I'll make it more direct:

Why are you jumping on a bandwagon with imperfect information.

Is it because you don't care if a townie gets lynched?

Why are you using weasel words to ignore the original question?

So, to be clear, when you accused me just now of throwing uninformed "votes" (in the plural) around, what you

meant

was that my "vote" (in the singular) on

you

was uninformed, and therefore suspicious. And you just happened to phrase it in such a way as to make it sound like this had been some kind of suspicious pattern of activity on my part which you were noting for future reference.

For the record, I am noting that it appears you have a tendency to be a bit imprecise in your choice of words.

Guilty as charged actually. I am just starting to notice this as a problem in my play style. Being too rhetorical and not precise enough and thereby leaving things available to attack that shouldn't be. If you are going to note it - note that I do it in all my games and come under fire for it in all my games - and therefore you should be careful in your application of it. But it's totally a fair point. I really can't argue against it. The worst part is I also have the capacity to be very precise and careful so it comes and goes.

You should know though that it was rhetorical flare and not an attempt to accuse you of casting multiple uninformed votes. I think the one uninformed vote is more than bad enough and is a tendency that we could stand to nip in the bud early.

Also, I went back and looked at what you had to say about Aiser at the time. Which was nothing, except post #309, where you (ironically) accused him of being

awfully informed

about who the townies were for an uninformed majority - rather the same thing that was pointed out about you just now.

You don't make any kind of definitive statment that you thought Roach (and Aiser before him) was town until post #772. So exactly when did you form that opinion?

When he stormed out calling himself a vanilla townie. Quitting because of my pressure on him.

[quit]I also think your "reaction" post to Jamuran's confession was somewhat more angry and bitter than the average reaction to it.[/quote]

That's...nice. Jamuran was an asshat. We had a ton of people acting like asshats. It pissed me off. They were all pissing me off. But what he did was just egregious and it almost destroyed the whole game. How exactly do you infer that I would be more likely to be a member of an "informed minority" from that?

I note that you've changed the subject from my request that you read my responses to the initial bandwagon on Taffmaster.

[cicero]

Taffmaster: Your post acts like I never did post 299.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 916#812916

As for Jamuuran, I responded to this complaint here in post 664:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 420#821420

I'm not going to re-explain a bunch of things I already posted for you guys, but I'll happily post links to the discussion.

Taffmaster is clearly voting for any wagon available so he can end the day. I'll need to go back and figure out why I *stopped* voting for this guy.

[cicero]

I wouldn't have put any stock in the Jamuuraan "I'm scum" at any time. But Taff's complaint seems to be that I didn't *mention* it. Fact is though, I really didnt notice it.

And when brought to my attention, I was the one who meta'd him and found him claiming cop in a newbie game where he was vanilla townie.

[cicero]

Ah yes. I'm not voting Taffmaster because of his softclaiming which is breadcrumbed. Something about the word SPEAK I guess. I'm only finished Season 2 on DVD and I don't get the reference and I'm fine with that for now - but it's why I'm not voting you for now. Plus Chronx started to look like an actual scum. You know - the sneaky kind.

I liked your case against ChronX by the way.

[cicero]

Roach, the fact that your playstyle is different doesn't mean your role isn't.

You keep insisting we shouldn't judge you by Aisar's play, as if the fact that your playstyle changed(1)

means your role changed. I think you are Slitheen.

My primary reason to suspect you is the fact that you don't want us to look at Aisar's play to learn what your role is(2)

.

That ain't playstyle, that's dumb(3)

.

imperfect info? I know just one pro-town role that can vote with perfect info. You make a null argument against the BW. You also are throwing around a lot of "just noting"s, which basically means you think someone is the case and want it known but don't want to be held responsible for it later.

1) I do, because the role doesn't matter, it's the PLAYER that has it that DOES matter. I'm not saying my role is different, I'm saying that

I

am different.

2) That's because I want you to look at

my

play instead of Aisar's. When a player is replacing another player, do you start a wagon on the new player right off the bat or do you wait and hope for the new player to slip-up?

3) Like you for voting for me because of my predecessor's play instead of my own? That's dumb, too. We're even now.

This whole argument is dumb. It's all situational. You generally make a case against a role not a player, Roach. Ignoring Aisar's play is not dumb. Your job as a replacement is to remedy any deficiencies he might have had by playing better than he did and casting doubt on people's suspicions so they forget or excuse your predecessor's play. Telling us to ignore your predecessor's play wll never happen. But the more you play well the more likely people are to take that into account. Just yelling to demand a clean break accomplishes precisely nothing. In fact, it's counterproductive. You are providing no new content and looking suspicious so people will be more likely to go after you.

[cicero]

Roach, you're wrong. If a player does something scummy, that makes it more likely they are scum.

If they get replaced, that dosn't change the odds of them being scum(1)

, so

they're STILL more likely to be scum then if they hadn't done the scum tell in the first place(2)

.

1) Who? The player that got replaced or the replacer?

2) To me, each player starts off with a clean slate. That INCLUDES players that have replacements (or, more specifically, the replacements themselves). Is that wrong, so wrong that it warrants me a vote?

You make my brain hurt and I wish I thought you were scum. Stop playing the victim. Your question 1 answer makes no sense. and your number 2 is just plain wrong.

[cicero]

Christ Vollkan, I almost missed your sarcasm and had a go atcha. haha

[cicero]

Christ Vollkan, I almost missed your sarcasm and had a go atcha. haha

Huh? Sarcasm? Where?

Hehe.

[cicero]

Also Vollkan - I dont want to get in a quoted post by post with you on your reply to me in 809 (I'm trying to cut down on 'em). A couple of things though:

I understand your 50/50 scum point after the second quote but it feels non sequitur to me. Oh hell I guess I'll reprint it:

Additionally - I'm not soft-claiming anything. Everybody is town until proven otherthise. A soft claim is a hint at a power role. not a hint at towniness. Everyone is always soft-claiming towniness by virtue of their entry into the game. What I am pointing out was that that particular vote was opportunistic or uninformed and therefore a potential slip by scum or bad play by a member of the town.

Not in my books. I play on a system of 0% scummy to 100% scummy. Everybody starts at 50%. Some people move down, the vast majority move up. Everyone starts as moderately scummy with me.

This is a matter of playstyle, so I won't argue the point.

I'm not disagreeing with what you wrote. I just don't think it's germaine. Can you explain it to me like I'm a three year old? Or is it just not the quote you meant to quote.

My other comment is that I agree that it's a playstyle thing. First, I'm here at work hitting refresh while writing long papers on things that would NOT excite you. So expect me to sometimes be a bit quick to respond.

In this particular wagon on me though - and in the next little while it's going to be even worse. I'm going to be hyper anal and ask a lot of pointed questions. It's a deliberate attempt to do my part to get the game back on track by squeezing out a ton of information while also getting people engaged. I opened another avenue of discussion with Axelrod and another with you. Anywhere I can find something to poke I'm going to poke it. This game almost died. People wanted it resurrected and I'm up for resurrecting it. That's how I'll be helping to do it.

Finally - I dont accept your "interesting" just "interesting" thing re the townie lynch point I presume you meant I was being defensive. You should have had the cajones to say it so I could reply to it. I was trying - for once - not to anticipate what would happen. Something that is already plaguing me in this game . But I cant reply to an accusation if you don't get behind the thing. Know what I'm sayin'?

[cicero]

@vollkan - fair enough. Just to explain though, I wasn't actually saying it in the sense of "I'm a townie". I was pointing out that players on the town side are more careful because they are the uninformed ones. I was basically calling him scummy. Not calling myself townie. I can understand how you'd see it the other way though.

[cicero]

Roach, if you want to convince us you're pro-town, it beehoovs you to start acting in a way helpful to the town.

Such as getting Flameaxe lynched? Very well.

Roach, how about doing a case against Flameaxe followed by your opinion of the other players. If you don't have an opinion of the other players, develop one.

[cicero]

First off, there was ChronX continuously calling people out for softclaiming. I quoted some of this is my catchup posts, Yos argued with ChronX about it. The thing is, though, what he called softclaiming wasn't, and what he called softclaiming wasn't scummy (nor is what I would call softclaiming either.) Yos also pointed out that this could be a way of getting people to reveal their roles (not sold on this argument, as it implies more subtlety than I saw from ChronX's posts, but eh. It's not a bad thought anyway).

I can answer to this. ChronX was softclaiming himself in a subtle way, but misunderstood his role (or was doing bad research).

Your answer seems non-sequitur. And now it looks like you are the one softclaiming.

[cicero]

I dont know why Flameaxe is doing that in this game. It's bad enough dealing with the SA people screwing around. I'm on ChronX in this game (now Iammers) because he was playing seriously and I saw scumtells. Everyone else I could vote for is just lurking or being flippant. I dunno, maybe I should go that way but for now I'm comfortable with this vote. But hardly certain.

[cicero]

OK, so anyone could pick up on that. You just claimed K-9. Breadcrumbing is one thing but that was just a full claim.

Why are you broken? Are you broken in a way that could harm the town? You might as well just give us the scoop because this isn't a softclaim anymore.

unvote

[cicero]

That makes total sense. I saw the episode.

It's either the Doctor or Sarah Jane. So now Doctor and/or Sarah Jane you have your target.

By the way joox.net for all your Doctor Who watchin' needs.

[cicero]

I want to know what the advantage for town is of these half claims that only people with Doctor Who knowledge get. Like K-9 and "Speak". If you are saying it baldly enough for some to get, you may as well say the flavor for everyone. You don't know who is town and who is scum so I dont really understand the point.

[cicero]

I still don't understand Taffmaster's claim, or why it's ok to breadcrumb/softclaim for some and not all.

Vote Taffmaster

[cicero]

No, if she was a Jester, she would have already been lynched. I saw her a jester once, it was a sight to behold.

Yes, thank you. It was the pinnacle of my achievements on this site. A legendary performance, if you don't mind my saying so myself.

Please link to relevant game. I want to read this.

[cicero]

vote caps

Caps is the play.

[cicero]

Hey ibby

cicero, do you oftzen vote hop this much?

I vote hop as much as seems warranted. Why aren't you asking Caps that question? Or am I upsetting the Taffmaster wagon or something?

Caps is the play because he lectured people quite intelligently on helpful and not helpful play re: setup speculation and then when he gets bored claims to be the doctor. "That furry woman".

Caps knows that that's inviting a nightkill which is bad for town. He's bored and wants to get the real doc to counterclaim him I'm guessing.

Ignoring caps at this point is not the play.

Play by the SomethingAwful players has to be seen through a simple prism: they think we're idiots. I can tell you one think for certain - if caps, at this point in time, claims to be the doctor, for no reason... he's not the doctor.

And I'm sick of this shit.

[cicero]

Mod: Votecount is wrong. I'm voting for Caps

[cicero]

Fine. Be anal.

Unvote Taffmaster. Vote Caps.

[cicero]

What makes Caps more a villain than Tar? Mercurial, unexplained suspicions hide deception.

Sorry for your post restriction. All I can tell you is the reason I'm voting him. Go read my posts.

[cicero]

guys you're fucking up you're lynching the doctor!

going by complete metagame bullshit, Jammy's leaving post said that he was going after

Flameaxe and Volkann.

I've seen other games that Jammy is in on SA and that is exactly the kind of stuff that he does when he gets bored. I can almost 99% guarantee that Volkann and Flameaxe are scumbos.

Also: The doctor claim was to get you all to believe me. I really am the doctor, which confused me because her title is Novice or something. I would think that a good doctor would be like a professional or something.

Also: If you lynch me you lose your doctor and I don't think you all want that okay

Caps is a smart and experienced player. To find this out look at the few posts where he forgot to be an asshat and contributed. Read not just for content. Read for tone.

He knows not to claim doctor.

He also knows that scum bandwagoning doesn't mean the two people being bandwagoned are necessarily scumbuddies.

And he knows how to look at his role pm and find specifics.

Ladies and Gentlemen: Caps is fucking with you.

[cicero]

No. Because the logic is stupid anyway. And you know that. Because you are smart and experienced.

If you WERE telling the complete truth, you'd be a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE asshat.

As it is, you're just yet another somethingawful pain in my ass who should grow up.

[cicero]

Two possibilities here:

(1) caps is scum and wants to out the real doctor before going down in flames.
(2) caps is the real doctor, in which case he'll be dead tomorrow anyway. And since he doesn't know who the cop is, chances that he'll protect the right player tonight are dismal.

Scum seems more likely because no doctor in their right mind would claim doctor with so little pressure.

Also, I wonder, if caps is false claiming, perhaps the real doctor should shut up and not counterclaim.

Dripping Goofball hits the nail right on the head, ladies and gentlemen. Well done.

[cicero]

Voting Garnasha for suggesting a jester in this case is problematic to me.

Caps was a huge asshat (actually I believe my term was HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE asshat) who was clearly bored and wanted to get out of this game. He acted like a jester.

Garnasha, on the other hand, is relatively new. 233 posts and one newbie game behind him. Basically enough experience to know to consider Jester and not nearly enough to NOT consider Jester. So that's a pretty tiny tell to me.

I'd be more likely to raise my eyebrow at you, Tarhalindur, for being willing to vote a newbie for that. Without taking it too far, you get a teeny tiny unbolded mfos from me. Which is what I pretty much think Garnasha deserved from you. the rest of your play looks pretty solid to me and I haven't re-read Garnasha yet. Is this vote really a straw breaking the camel's back? Are there other things we should be looking at with Garnasha?

----------------------------

As for anyone else from SomethingAwful.com: This game started with 30 players. THIRTY! it's going to go on for at least 4-6 months. You may be married with babies before it ends. If this is going to be a problem for you and you plan on getting bored and acting out, could you please seek replacement now AND QUIT FUCKING WITH BATTLEMAGE'S GAME!

Thanks.


Thanks.

[cicero]

Incidentally there's no reason to NOT keep an eye on Flameaxe and Vollkaan. Flameaxe has been playin it close to the vest and pretend-useless, while actually paying careful attention. (He's not being an asshat if you re-read his posts)

and Vollkaan has that two vote thing going on with MoS that no one wants to talk about because they are scared of being accused of rolefishing. But which clearly seems to be the result of someone's night 0 night action. I'm not saying vote for them. I'm saying pay attention.

With that in mind, I would like to know if there is any flavor that might suggest a Dalek power that could cause mind control or servanting or something. Because Ive watched all of season two and a third of season three and I can't think of anything off the top of my head. And remember if Vollkaan was scum with Jamuuran, he'd have to be in the Cult of Skaro.

(and while we're on the flavor: Cult of Skaro includes Dalek Sek who could be entered into a game of mafia in a number of interesting ways given his ultimate transformation and demise)

Another thing that needs to be thought about is "the Mcpaltp problem". He can only post in italics and clearly appears to have some kind of post-restriction (with apologies to ABR who I think got the Meta-read dead dead wrong). If he is accused of faking it, as he has been, he'll have trouble fighting back. These points are probably just useful as potential investigator avenues at SOME point in the game.

[cicero]

As for anyone else from SomethingAwful.com: This game started with 30 players. THIRTY! it's going to go on for at least 4-6 months. You may be married with babies before it ends. If this is going to be a problem for you and you plan on getting bored and acting out, could you please seek replacement now AND QUIT FUCKING WITH BATTLEMAGE'S GAME!

Thanks.


Thanks.

Me?

It says "anyone" and contains an "if-then" proposition. What's your question? No. I wasnt thinking of anyone in particular, and I dont hold you responsible for the actions of other subscribers to SA. Hopefully you'll stick around for a while. After all, someone has to persistently call for me to be lynched in here! It wouldn't be a Cicero game without it!

[cicero]

With a cult recruiter killed night one, is it (reasonably) safe to assume he did not recruit someone? Is the cult possibly still around? With his role being called CyberController, did the cult represent Dr. Who's Cybermen faction?

Shteven makes a VERY good point in this post. I had assumed the cult was out of the game. This is not necessarily true at all. Very very very very good point.

The cult recruiter would have had a night 0 action. He would have recruited someone for certain. Whether they themselves can recuit is an open question.

[cicero]

Okey. Color me relieved.

[cicero]

I need more votes. Quickly, everyone jump on!

OK.

Why is it that you're acting like a Somethingawful asshat.

Vote Flameaxe

because he requested it.

And once again, I'm sick of this shit.

[cicero]

unvote, vote cicero

aaaaaaaaaaay.

Sit on it!


(sorry. couldnt resist. :p)

[cicero]

Second, and this is more serious: why does fonz vote without reasons? Di he already give them earlier or what?

I don't think there's necessarally anything scummy with voting while not giving your reasons right away.

This is true. It isn't necessarily scummy. But it can be scummy. Normally with bandwagons.

In this case though, I just thought Fonz's vote was self-explanatory. Read over my day. It looks scummy. Especially to a new person. I'd vote for me if I wasn't me.

Fonz doesn't look scummy to me for doing it, really.

[cicero]

Normally I don't know if I like the idea of cryptography.

In this case it amuses me, because it seems like just the kind of clever strategy The Doctor might employ...

It has teh flavr.

[cicero]

That doesn't make it scummy. Adel is trying to help. He's obv town. Voting him for this is scummy. So is backing up and defending voting for him.

FOS You know who you are and now so do I

[cicero]

One- Adel is an obvgirl.

It isn't obv until you go all the way to the wiki, but thanks. Adel =/= Adele

Secondly- the vote is obviously not for Adel being scummy. It's a 'I don't want to play with people who pull that kinda crap' vote.

I have no problems with policy lynches of people who are pseudo-scummy and disruptive.

Voting Adel for suggesting helpful strategies is a good way to silence and intimidate discussion. I don't much like that.

Voting Taffmaster for that is scummy and opportunistic.

Maybe in kaleidoscope scum-world it is. In the real world it's perfectly reasonable especially given that Taffmaste has a pre-existng track record of acting suspiciously (although I'm currently voting Flameaxe).

Also, suggesting a pro-town gamebreaking strat in the knowledge that enough people will think you're a cheating douche for suggesting it that it won't actually happen could actually be a scum gambit. It's not hard to see why.

It is for me. Explain it to me like I'm stupid.

[cicero]

Yeah. that's the WIFOM point but it's fair. Obvious answer is this:

Hey Adel: Please manually encrypt your own role at this time. The rest of us won't be doing it though.

Let him tie his own hands if he likes it so much.

[cicero]

EBWOP: I clearly bolded something in 1208 that is supposed to be a quote from Fonz. Sorry.

[cicero]

I'm so glad that we already have three scum in the bag, because this is a wonderfully unproductive way to play when facing deadline.

Since I have no strong leads on who is or is not the scum, I'd be happiest with a Flameaxe lynch. He's been unhelpful for the most part, though not as unhelpful as he's been accused of being, As an aside, it would help us to test what Caps was saying but I wouldn't lynch for that reason alone. Hence why I'm not voting Vollkan.

Though I do, elipitically, ask again: Why has no one said word one about the double voting. Vollkaan has been fingered as scum and has MoS's vote. Very curious.

A Taffmaster lynch also makes sense given his behavior today. To change my mind, I'd like his breadcrumbs explained since that's why I unvoted him in the first place and I currently don't even remember who vouched for him.

No one else stands out to me. I believe the K9 claim so Iammers is out for me for now.

[cicero]

..not if we used a manual method. It ain't illegal, and it ain't "immoral" any more than breadcrumbing is. It would work, and yet only one player in this game gave me any support. I'm bewildered.

damn-it, you just managed to troll me again.

So. Do your own. Like I suggested.

How would you respond to this as scum? Have you ever played as scum? I know their interests go unrepresented in games because everyone has to publicly play as town, but arent you just binding your own hands if you ever have to play as scum?

Remember - this is just a big game of hide and seek. The scum aren't actually bad people. You don't actually want it to be solvable via formula.

That having been said, I still think you need to do your own now and be stuck to it. Otherwise I'm inclined to be sympathetic to Fonzie's point. You are more than smart enough to propose something you know will get shot down to look like Town.

[cicero]

I dont much think they should. I just think you had to to kill the WIFOM.

You didnt answer the rest of my post.

[cicero]

I'll keep that in mind for future games Adel.

[cicero]

I'm rarely useful early in a game.

Well you might want to look into that playstyle because we might just lynch you over it.

And in case you think I'd be sorry about that, look at my sig. It goes for active lurkers and barely there posters too. Basically anyone who wants to ride out the game under the radar.

[cicero]

Seems to me you don't have much respect for anybody. At least no one in this game.

[cicero]

Christ, turn my back for one minute...

Iammers, don't bother feeding the troll. Just let it go. But thanks.

[cicero]

3) He is a useless lurker; I'm not disputing you there. However, your lack of actual scumhunting is more interesting.

Interesting. Please show me all of the amazing scumhunting Flameaxe has done.

[cicero]

Tagalong vote because I think mcpalpt is too cool for the rest of you.

unvote; vote Shteven

Shteven is a square.

If you are voting FlameAxe because you think he is a jerk, you should unvote, unless you think it is still early enough to safely cull a jerk from the herd, but then I would question your will to win and vote for you as being the guy willing to sacrifice strategy for personal comfort.

Nothing Shteven has done looks particularly scummy to me. Nothing there that's remotely worth voting for.

Of the possible options Flameaxe looks like the best bet for scum to me. I'd rather test Caps assertion on a useless player then lynch Shteven on the "nothing but fumes" case that is currently growing a "we're bored and gotta do something" bandwagon.

Voting Shteven for "being square" isn't a reason by the way.

FOS Ectomancer

[cicero]

No Palt. You overlooked that Shteven is falling for/going along with Fonz's suggestion that, in light of the deadline people should go for Iammers or Flameaxe.

Shteven is picking the lesser of two evils and is openly expressing his doubt. That's more townie than lots of the reasons for the Shteven wagon.

If people want to argue for a no lynch or argue against Fonz's post of narrowing, go ahead. I told you why I think this is a smart move:
- remove an unproductive player
- test Caps's assertion (based on the new info that everyone from SA that tried to wreck the game has spoken the truth).

This is a better use of my time then this (likely scum backed) bandwagon of convenience.

[cicero]

I do. Because it discourages Flameaxe's kind of play which is bad for town and bad for the game. I love going after the guy doing nothing. He's often scum. Or acting that way so that when he is scum he can coast through.

You think we shouldn't go after people doing nothing. That lets scum do nothing. And that lets scum avoid the lynch.

IMHO that's a bad play.

[cicero]

@Garnasha

1) Use the drop down menu and read Fonz's posts. They aren't actually narrowed down in any binding sense. It was Fonz's opinion at one point. You overstate it when you articulate it like you have.

2) Why on earth would we want to "policy lynch" Taff again? He's playing the game and not doing a bad job at it. He might be scum but I don't think he deserves a policy lynching.

3) Take it to mafia discussion. Here is not the time or place.

[cicero]

2) Why on earth would we want to "policy lynch" Taff again? He's playing the game and not doing a bad job at it. He might be scum but I don't think he deserves a policy lynching.
.

Why would you policy lynch me?

Why would you quote me when you should be quoting Garnasha? I'm opposing your "policy lynch" in the quote above not advocating it.

As for why, Garnasha thinks you deserve to die because you want adele to die because adele wanted to use teh crypto to make teh scum die.

Clear?

[cicero]

EBWOP: I meant Adel not Adele. But "teh" is still "teh".

[cicero]

I do. Because it discourages Flameaxe's kind of play which is bad for town and bad for the game. I love going after the guy doing nothing. He's often scum. Or acting that way so that when he is scum he can coast through.

You think we shouldn't go after people doing nothing. That lets scum do nothing. And that lets scum avoid the lynch.

IMHO that's a bad play.

IMHO, you suck at meta-games.

You have one completed game on your wiki. In it you played like this and won, as scum. Thanks for the heads up.

In the game we were in together, which I won't mention because it is still ongoing, you were more helpful and less rude and died as town.

In the current game we're in you've decided that insulting people is your rebuttal to people suspecting you and demanded the right to be useless. At the same time we have a direct accusation against you and Vollkaan that could come to something.

And you are doing exactly the kind of meta-play that is designed to let you get away with scummy play when you are scum - at the expense of the town you are currently supposed to be helping.

[cicero]

Or you could stop acting like an asshole and attempting to give people research projects to explain away you being one.

[cicero]

cicero, did you mean fonz posted good reasons for narrowing down lynching to FA and IAM when you said this?

If people want to argue for a no lynch or argue against Fonz's post of narrowing, go ahead. I told you why I think this is a smart move:

No. I wasn't advocating the Fonz position. In addition I'm fairly certain Fonz no longer advocates the Fonz position since he is currently not voting for either one of them.

[cicero]

It's not my job to meta myself. It's my job to make the retards come to their senses about how flawed their gameplans are.

By calling them retards. That always gets the desired response from people. :eyeroll:

Let me try: Hey Flameaxe, you retard, quit acting like an asshole.

Whoo. Problem solved. I didn't know it could be so easy.

[cicero]

There are lots of good times for policy lynches. This wasn't one of them.

[cicero]

Where did I say that I was defending myself for anything? I have no reason to defend myself from Cicero's crazed policy wagon.

You just defended by calling it a policy wagon. It isn't crazy or on some abstract principle. It's because I think you are acting like scum.

Which means either you are scum or you want to make it easy for when you play as scum, therefore hurting the chances of every town you're in. If I'm in the game I go after people acting scummy and anti-town. Stick your meta up your enormous ass.

In addition, in this case, given Caps deathbed screams that you and Vollkaan are scum, the fact that everything the SA game wreckers has said has turned out to be truem and the fact that Vollkaan has two votes for some odd reason, that situation is worth investigating.

And of the two of you I'd rather investigate it using you since Vollkaan is more useful to the town, whether he's scum or town, because he's actually playing. Of the possible choices on our deadlined day one I think you're our best.

It's a better play than some random rushed wagon that will probably just lynch us another townie.

[cicero]

Your case: I'm lurking and being useless.

Lynch All Lurkers - EVEN if They're Town.

Right...

I stand behind it too. Unless Town's start to systematically pressure antitown behavior until it goes away, otherwise they'll just end up getting suckered by players like you when you are scum. Then you can go laugh at how "easy" it was to dupe people.

And no, I can't add more to it since the whole point of being useless is you don't actually DO anything. So I can't make a case against you for anything you've DONE. Then when anyone attacks you you can say "What I didnt do anything!!" which is exactly right. It's too bad because what you are supposed to be doing is hunting scum. And since you aren't you deserve a rope burn on your neck. Simple as that.

[cicero]

I commented already a couple of times on the additional reason why you have my vote. Quit pretending I havent. Might want to go read 1321 again.

That having been said, I do wish I had a rope for all the lurkers and useless people but I don't. It's kind of a one lynch at a time game around here. Of them all though, you're the one demanding your right to be useless and anti-town. So you rise to the top.

@Adel - We have a different view of "convincing" my friend. I think Shteven got suckered in by Fonz's idea. He might be scum. He just seems to be pretty obvious and stupid about it then. And he certainly doesn't come CLOSE to being as scummy as Taffmaster, who lives by a mere breadcrumb in my mind.

[cicero]

Keep ignoring everyone else then, tunnel-vision boy. I have no hope for you anymore.

Tunnel vision would be a problem coming from anyone else but someone who isn't scumhunting at all. 1 > 0.

It's hard to get out of a tunnel with someone who insists on his right to not show you a path out.

[cicero]

He already answered that with a yes, just recently. Yes. No majority = no lynch.

[cicero]

so if we are wrong, and shteven is a vengeful townie, than flameaxe dies as well? sounds like a win-win to me.

Funny way to see it. I wouldn't quite say you're wrong, but well, you're not exactly right I mean the whole sort-of-admitting you are ok lynching someone you think/know is town part.

You mean like what you did with caps?

[cicero]

Before anyone gets all toofer happy, this is a game with lots of magic power roles... don't assume that this would all go down according to plan. SHteven could be scum, or a vengeful townie could get roleblocked/re-directed.

Vote who you think is most likely to be scum.

Shteven's defense was scummier than his play as far as I'm concerned (with a moment to thank you for the nice things you said about my play) but I'm not convinced he's scum. I still think he's town so I'm not throwing down any hammers right now. But the question is - is this situation, worst case scenario, better than a no lynch?

I think it probably is. But I hate no lynches :p

@Fonz - rudeness like that distracts the town and lets scum hide. It's anti-town play even when engaged in by townies. Even if we don't ultimately lynch someone like that I'm more than comfortable giving them a hard time.

In addition as I already said, it's only a town tell at first. Once he develops it as a meta he can wander around from game to game acting like an asshole, distracting town and using it to his advantage when scum. You don't think he'll be so transparent as to be nice whenever he's scum do you? He's not that stupid. So basically, fuck his bratty little meta. If someone wants to play useless and rude put some pressure down. Flameaxe may stay a brat but he's already stopped being useless.

Works for me.

[cicero]

Cult of Scaro means we should have one Dalek left. Slytheens have somehow managed to avoid detection.

Anyone else feel like calling Adel a cheeky bastard next time they see him? :p

Why did you vote MoS, ABR?

MoS, why didn't you ask him why?

Ecto, what are "shnikes"?

[cicero]

Anyone else fine with lynching cicero today ?

That's no answer. Plus it's an attempt to bully. And you're voting MoS not me. That's enough for me to

Vote Albert B. Rampage

for now.

[cicero]

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=shnikes

In other words, holy shit that was a lot of kills.

Heh. I thought you made it up. It was just a joke on my part. Whoda thunk it'd be in the urban dictionary and everything.

[cicero]

1) Yup. My bad.

2) Fair enough.

[cicero]

@Pokerface - I recall that Cult of Skaro had 5 members in total.

Our first priority today should probably be looking at the play of all the dead Daleks to see if we can get a clue as to the identity of the last one. That would eliminate a nightkill. It looks like we can expect the Cult kill "deletions" to be over. Ending the exterminations would be great as well. That having been said, easier said than done, of course. :p

[cicero]

Bleh. Nevermind. I think we're all out of Daleks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_skaro

[cicero]

My heart is not in voting ABR.

Finished re-read of his posts. He smells like Town. Also he is very funny and made me laugh out loud repeatedly. But that wouldnt make me stop voting him on its own.

Unvote

[cicero]

Good catch, Erg0. I didnt look closely enough.

Possibility that Sek has a weird not quite mafia role though. He ultimately sacrifices himself for the Doctor in the series. If the emperor took the godfather role, I'd expect it.

Also, sorry to use the Caps evidence again, but Caps listed only Vollkaan and Flameaxe.

Anyhoo, time will tell. But Yes you are right, We may have one more Dalek.

[cicero]

First page flavor:

"Recently there have been rumours. Rumours of the reformation of the Cult of Skaro, under new leadership.

Rumours of a return of the Slitheen masses.

Rumours of the rebuilding of John Lumic's creations. The 30 of you know one thing- you are not alone. You feel sure that there are innumerable scumbags in your midst, and that many of them are probably protown. You know that nothing is certain, until death. The outcomes of this fight for the innocents are as follows. Either win, and save your planet to fight another day, or lose, and allow Earth to become enslaved by whatever foul creatures escape your glance.
God speed, brave warriors."

Underline is mine.

[cicero]

I am willing to lynch the first person to have mentioned the Slitheen threat. THat person is most likely Slitheen themself.

Too late. He's dead. Vollkan in post 390 rebutting Taffmaster's belief that there was no other scum group.

He was a Dalek. Not a Slitheen.

[cicero]

Hmm... how to deal with this. This sucks very much - not just for me, for the town. Either you are lying or you got role shifted, as the town will likely find out, to its detriment.

On the off chance you are indeed lying... why expose yourself today? Why not just try to get me lynched? Why expose yourself to a nightkill now?

Finally, how sure are you that you are fully sane and competent as a cop?

Do you accept the possibility of another element being at play here.

My role isnt exactly breadcrumbed from day one but astute eyes might figure it out quickly enough anyway with a quick read of my posts. And it sure ain't scum.

And yes I know all the scum say that. :p

[cicero]

I didn't leave breadcrumbs on purpose. And the clues that are there, which are quite accidental, have absolutely nothing to do with Doctor Who Flavor.

ABR is confusing me here. It

almost

feels like he's just fucking around. But with the way he plays I can see him bursting and bursting to let this out. He knows he should wait, could wait, could do but BLAH! Out it comes.

In addition, he's claiming Doctor Who. which means he's likely not liking about flavor. (audacious move if he is doing so)

And I don't actually think Doctor Who would be a flawed cop. He's the hero.

In addition, ABRs play felt town to me on my re-read.

And this makes zero sense as a scum gambit unless they have some role need to find or uncover the doctor or something.

So I'm back to believing in mafia role shifting. What's that called again anyway?

(By the way, before this I was convinced ABR was the vigilante, not the cop. )

[cicero]

I'm thinking that cicero should claim.

I'd like some more opinions on this. Claim now? Wait for an L-1 or 2 to develop?

I'm certainly waiting for ABR to post again first. He has a few questions from people to answer.

[cicero]

I almost wouldn't put it past him. :p

Anyone in favor of me waiting?

(Anyone think they've guessed what I'm going to say? )

[cicero]

I approve Pokerface's view. I'm sitting here. The claim is written and sitting in notepad. There are very good reasons for ABR to answer the questions. While we await him...dare to vote.

[cicero]

Seriously, it's in a notepad file DG. Right in front of me. And it's not one of those dumb bend over backwards claims. I promise it isnt remotely "clever" and I actually hate waiting just because of accusations like that. If I wanted to wait to think up something clever I'd just become unavailable. I do have a job you know (at which I am currently busily putting my brainpower to work on a paper, not thinking up acrobat claims to save my neck).

I want votes on the record. Not just who did vote but who didnt so that later people can use the info.

If you want to accuse me of delaying go right ahead. Faster votes on me equals faster use of my magic cut and paste command. The posts been written for about three hours now.

Besides, you're lynching me either way, righ, DG? "Capice?"

[cicero]

We lynched Mars yesterday, DG? I don't remember doing that. The name Shteven rings a bell though.

[cicero]

1. There's no character named Doctor Who in Doctor Who.

2. You didnt answer MY questions to you. Why reveal yourself now and leave yourself open to nightkill. Surely I'm scummy enough that you could try to lynch me the old fashioned way for a while.

3. I am accused of being the first to mention the other scumgroup when in fact I am mistaken as to its existence. In the post mentioned I am indeed scummy. Because I say something which suggests that we only need to clean up a couple of more Daleks. I need to be reminded of the Slitheen by Vollkaan. If I'm scummy there, I'm a scummy Slitheen. I would suspect me after that post. Later, I remind people of the Slitheen because I have been reminded of the Slitheen. Still damage done as far as I'm concerned.


3. I went after Flameaxe in a way that helped to get two Daleks killed when the Daleks were already down two and Caps had fingered them in a pretty much game breaking way. Bussing in that context would have been retarded. I am not a Dalek. I could indeed be a Slitheen though. No argument.

4. I did think Adel was obv town. I need to stop doing that!!! I'm, too gullible. Someday I will ask him what he wrote in his encrypted post. As for the hypocrisy that's just dumb. Even though I thought he was obv town I still wanted to avoid being tricked so I made him bind his own hands. Most people objected to the encryption so why push it for everyone. That wasnt hypocrisy. That was just smart. And I would have done my own auto-encrypt but I'm not doing the think manually! I'm a lawyer I don't encrypt shit!

5. And yes, Vollkaan attacks me after I attack Flameaxe. We now know he is his partner. Other than that this doesnt really show a lot. Vollkaan didnt know my alignment either. And your argument that I might be a Dalek after the way I played is dumb dumb da-dumb dumb dumb.

Who's trying to make people forget the Slitheen now, ABR?

My claim is in the next post.

[cicero]

I doubt BM made a flavour mistake.

My name is Martha Jones and I am the doctor's most recent loyal and trusted assistant. I am young and hot and most importantly, having now finished up my medical exams, as the mod tells me,

I am a Doc

Up until Caps died I thought I was

THE

doc. It didnt occur to me to remember that a game with 30 players might have two doctors. Hence why you can see the difference in my response to Jamuuran's claim (modkill and ignore him) and Cap's doctor claim (he's lying. he's totally lying. We really need to lynch this guy because he's definitely not the doc).

I got caught up in the whole strategy of figuring out how to get him lynched without revealing that I was THE doc. That's how I did it. I was actually surprised that no one pointed out the inconsistency. I thought I was overly transparent and fully expected to be nightkilled.

Lynch away children. Things are not as simple as they appear in the doctor who universe.

Oh yeah - last night I protected Adel which not only didn't help her - it made me wonder if I actually killed her.

Night zero I didn't send in a night choice.

[cicero]

So it says Doctor Who in your PM?

Well, at least, that's what I am leading you to believe....DUM DUM DUM

(sigh) You know, Albert, as I believe there has been at least one time you lied and claimed cop when you were pro-town but not a cop, that kind of comment does not exactally fill me with confidence.

If you're trying a gambit here, you've got to tell us now, Albert.

That kind of gambit just cost the town a doctor.

[cicero]

Oh yeah - last night I protected Adel which not only didn't help her - it made me wonder if I actually killed her.

Night zero I didn't send in a night choice.

What kind of doctor doesn't send in a night choice?

Why shouldn't we lynch you? You'll be nightkilled anyway. Might as well find out your true allegiance today, so that the vig can shoot down the right player. Wouldn't you selflessly agree?

I couldn't care less. Lynch away. Damage is done. I have no one useful to protect and town is way ahead. I don't have a good reason for not sending in a night choice. I think I just forgot. What kind of dumbass scum doesn't MAKE UP a night choice for night one is the real question. But oh yeah, I know the answer to that: WIFOM.

Kids, if you think it's good for the town to lynch me, lynch me.

If it turns out Albert is actually town and not the cop he's a fucking asshole.

[cicero]

I believe that Martha Jones has NOT finished her exams, and is not a practicing doctor. Not sure if that's hot or cold. Just thought I'd mention it.

You are 100% correct which I believe is why that little detail is specifically pointed out in my role PM. I noted it as a change in the flavor.

You still keep thinking I'm all opposed to my lynch n' shit.

[cicero]

lol ?? Are you f*cking serious ? A doctor who didn't protect N0 ??? A doctor that tries to save a scumbag ??? A doctor that FAILED to save a scumbag and instead killed that scum ?

lol! I am indeed fucking serious. It's a shame. It might have been better for town (and my reputation) if I lied

[cicero]

You are dumbasses if you don't lynch me. Chalk this one up to a point for scum later. I continue to believe this happened because of a role shift. Don't necessarily lynch ABR. I believe that he believes I am scum.

The only problem I have is his slipping on the role name so keep an eye on him. But he doesn't deserve to be nightkilled over this. Shit happens.

[cicero]

Give us a break and vote yourself Cicero. You know you're scum. I got the guilty on you. Its over, mate.

Not a problem.

Vote Cicero

It will prove that things arent as they seem. More votes please.

[cicero]

You couldnt trust him OR me, goofball.

[cicero]

Look - it's like this.

There's lots of evidence in this game of role blocking and shifting. Town is way ahead. ABR has his bloodlust on but I gave you my role and my play is consistent with my role.

If I stay alive I can protect ABR but I don't even know who he is. He refuses to tell me why he claimed cop now because claiming cop now was profoundly stupid. But yes, I could protect him for one night. But *I* alrready know his results arent necessarily accurate. When I die, you'll know that too.

There are also enough NK roles that one live doctor wont save him. Scum will hit twice.

This whole thing is points for the scum. Simple as that. But you can either know stuff going into night or not know it. And the way to know it is to kill me.

[cicero]

@Pokerface - I'm not a Slitheen but you can't know that. You need to vote me.

[cicero]

There are also enough NK roles that one live doctor wont save him. Scum will hit twice.

Protection works against multiple kills.

Not in the games I've played. Including this one. Adel is dead. Although I seriously did wonder if I killed him.

[cicero]

EBWOP: Her

[cicero]

Ah man, I love you too cicero. I sincerely hope you are part of the Dalek mafia group so we get rid of one night kill tonight.

This is why I shake my head. Believing I'm possibly Slitheen is smart. Very smart actually. Because even my play with respect to Caps, Flameaxe and Vollkaan is consistent with that.

Thinking I could possibly be a Dalek is dumb. Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb.

[cicero]

Here is an odd question. Who was the first to say Slitheen's possibly have safe claims? They could possibly be a slitheen with a safe claim. Just an odd thought. Anybody know who brought that point up first cause I 'think' it was Axel Rod

Well I dont know if anyone said it before me but I said it without prompting quite explicitly. More reason for you to vote me.

Who the hell would think Slitheen WOULDNT have safe claims?? They wear people suits for christ's sake!

[cicero]

I was wrong about my protects by the way. I chose to protect Mcpaltp on night zero. I just missed it in my PMs. Just looked again and it's there. I missed it because it was in my initial role confirmation reply to Battlemage. I was looking for another seperate message.

I was hoping it had been Pooky. Then I would have claimed to have killed all the Cybermen with my uber-docness!


---------------
@Pokerface - It is quite possible that there is only one Slitheen. The show had two Slitheen appearances (that I've seen). In the second there was only her left. Her Wikipedia entry is here.

I doubt she'll be wearing the same suit of clothes though. (i.e. the safeclaim is likely to be different).

[cicero]

Holy Crap

?!Raxacoricofallapatorian!?

How in the world do you pronounce that awful terrible word!?

Why, just as it sounds: Raxacoricofallapatorian.

How hard was that? Easy!

[cicero]

I chose to protect Mcpaltp on night zero.

Who is McPalpt and why protect him? Like you guessed he'd be number one choice for the nightkill? Is he, like, so super-sneaky clever that the scum can't allow him to live???

I didnt remember doing it. Now you are asking for my justification of why? Come on.

I obviously did it completely randomly. If there's a better way for me to do night 0 protects let me know. :p Maybe with more experience I can meta, but in a game with this many brand new people. Nah. I would probably have protected Pooky. In fact as I vaguely recall that's who I thought I HAD protected. So I obviously decided to go random instead of meta. Good thing, too.

Mcpaltp is the guy that spend the whole game

talking in italics

. What do you mean, who is he?

[cicero]

Oh, actually, if you protected Mcpaltp night zero, then you're probably not a insane doc. You might just be an ineffective doc or %-chance effective doc of some type. Did your role PM give any hint about your doc abilites being less then good or something, cicero?

Well I just parsed the wording and it says that I managed to pass my exams, that I intend to use my medical skills to help. That's the best I can come up with. But it's stretching. The words managed and intend. Overall it looks like a straightforward Doc post. None of those words rang any flags when I read it the first time.

The other idea might just be that doing doctor stuff might kill Cybermen. Rip out wires and such.

[cicero]

@ABR - were you serious in asking about my "breadcrumb"? If you're looking for it it isn't a breadcrumb per se. I just thought my response to the Caps situation yelled out "TICK TOCK I'M THE DOC!" Especially since my response to his screwing around was very different than my response to Jamuraan. Jamuraan I thought we should replace and ignore (not modkill as I earlier and erroneously wrote). Caps I was hell bent on lynching. The reason for that is because I was staring at the Martha Jones Doc PM from the Mod. That's all.

[cicero]

Well I just parsed the wording and it says that I managed to pass my exams, that I intend to use my medical skills to help.

Nice try but Martha Jone has not passed her exams.

DG - we just went over this. I *KNOW* that in the continuity she hasnt passed her exams. Too bad. In my role PM she *has*. So when I die, and everyone sees I am town, if you're still alive you have to right "Oops, my bad" ok?

Also - send me some of your stained glass in your remorse. It's Christmas. It'll make a good gift for someone.

[cicero]

Ebwop: right = write. My auto-typos are starting to concern me. I think I have a Too-mah!

[cicero]

If there's a better way for me to do night 0 protects

let me know.

Yes, yes there is, and you don't need to be the most experienced player to know how. Wouldn't you guess that players like BM, Pooky, and Glork (and myself, ah, I feel like flattering myself) are night action magnets? Especially for the scum. The scum will want to eliminate active players that are good at finding scum.

And never, ever bother protecting MoS or Quagmire. The scum doesn't want to nightkill these two.

McPalpt? Gimme a break.

You're too smart for such a stupid choice, cicero. You are the liar.

It's hard for me to deal with this when I'm already telling you to lynch me. You asked. I answered. You did not believe.

If I'm so smart, wouldn't I know the "right" answers to give, DG? "On night 0 I protected Yosarian2". Sorry, you are just going to have to accept that I chose what I chose. If I'm smart enough to know the "right" answer, I'm smart enough to tell you the "right" answer?

Think it through.

You should be kissing my ass at high noon for not protecting Pooky is what you should be doing. We dodged a gigantic bullet based on my whim.

[cicero]

[quote="PokerFace]

@Cicero,

you go from no night choice to mcpalt to yos2? What's with the changing?[/quote]

Not sure how to answer this without repeating what I already said.

- Nothing to Mcpaltp = my mistake. I explained it already.

- Mcpaltp to Yos2 = does not exist. You are misreading. Yos2 was an example of a safe thing for Doctor Scum to say. No one would have doubted my motives because he's a well establishe player who, it is generally agreed, plays well.

[cicero]

ABR why dont you step off your "official answer" and just give us the real answer. It's kind of important. Are you really a cop? Was this just a gambit because you thought I was "Obv-scum"? Cut the shit.

[cicero]

It's always neat when the guy that loves post-restrictions is the one that gets a post-restriction. Especially when it insulates him from investigation. Whether people lynch me or not, McPaltp should get some pressure under the Lynch All Liars principle. (McPaltp is on record over at Somethingawful in their mafia discussion thread talking about how much he loves post restrictions. He does this prior to getting this one, I do believe, though I'm not sure on the timing. But he does looooove post restrictions. I now believe this one is false.)

So McPaltp, what do you mean you did not notice me at night? Quit softclaiming or spit it out. Are you accusing me of lying about being the doctor because you would have detected me targetting you night zero?

[cicero]

It's just because Adel is dead I think. We need to account for all the kills AND a doc protect. So we speculate.

The speculation is easier for you, DG, cuz you think I'm lying.

[cicero]

I cannot be killed unnaturally. I did not see if I was a target. No.

What does unnaturally mean?

[cicero]

Oh so nightkill immunity. I know who has nightkill immunity from scum.... Scum!
(at least with the Daleks and Cybermen potentially down for the count).

[cicero]

Vote Mcpaltp

Hope no one minds me doing a little scumhunting on the side until you decide to lynch me.

[cicero]

Ooooh so your posting restriction allows for smileys now.

[cicero]

Unvote. Vote Mcpaltp

Thanks for the heads up Pokerface.

I questioned and voted McPaltp to generate another line of discussion. The Cicero ABR one had stalled. Also I'm fine with being lynched today... well, I suppose fine is a strong way of putting it... but in the meantime I'm going to question and uncover whatever I can. I sat and discussed my "guilty" plea for about 24 hours and am happy to entertain any other questions but the game must go on in the meantime.

I actually think this whole thing is going to be good info after I and/or ABR are dead.

McPaltp is hiding under a fake post restriction and has now claimed nightkill immunity. He's basically like an active lurker at this point. Using the post restriction to stop from being incriminating. Glad I could be of service in poking him with a stick.

@Kison: Lynch All Liars. Lynch all Lurkers. He kinda fits n there. :p More importantly, why NOT him?

I think I might have a go at Pokerface next actually. Not sure. Just looking around, shakin' some trees, seeing what falls out.

I'm also less and less sanguine about my "innocent mistake" view of Albert B. Rampage's mistaken guilty claim on me. It's hard to play mafia with people who break the conventions by being town and pretending to be a role they arent. But that discussion is pretty much on the record. I'm still not convinced he's scum. I don't quite see the point of it. I think he just got it in his head that he can scumhunt better than everyone else and he can drive the point home with a cop claim. Still LAL, yo. (Near as I can tell, on Mafiascum the actual rules are "Lynch No Liars" and "Lynch No Lurkers" by the way).

[cicero]

I will not make additional posts in this game until after the next BM post.

Why? (he asked, knowing he would not receive an answer until after the next BM post.)

[cicero]

I think he just got it in his head that he can scumhunt better than everyone else and he can drive the point home with a cop claim.

I am not Dr.House. I am not Shark. These fictional characters get to do things their way because they are prodigies of their fields.

That's nice. I AM Martha Jones and my role PM does tell me I'm a doctor. So wedge that in your world view.

[cicero]

Possible killing motives.

What we know:

Iammers --> Daleks (Vollkan. possible accomplice. ) We know this.

Pete D ---->Cybermen killed him. Adel was likely the last Cyberman

What we don't:

Yamahako ---> Perhaps a vigilante who hates lurkers? And no it isnt me. A serial killer who knew no possible trail could be left?

Adel-----> I still think it's highly probable that I killed her. I also note ABR threatening Adel with being vigged. Since I am a newish Doctor and there were two doctors all sorts of incompetencies or insanities could be at play here.

Vollkan-------> Could be anyone that wanted the last Dalek gone. Which means everybody. What is more interesting is that MORE kills didnt land here.

[cicero]

Adel-----> I still think it's highly probable that I killed her.

So now you're basically a vig?

You tell me. I'm counting kills. I know that I sent in a PM to the Mod telling him that I was going to protect Adel. Adel is now a dead cyberman. That is all I know. I am simply not ruling out the ideas that:
a) my doc protection kills cybermen
b) my doc protection kills everybody (McPaltp is apparently NK immune he says)
c) My doc protection was incompetent and failed to stop a kill.
d) Two killers attacked Adel last night and overrode my protection.

You also need to consider:
e) Cicero is completely full of shit and is lying scum.

But I don't. I know better. So!

of A through D what is most likely. D seems highly unlikely to me. There aren't enough killers in the game given all the other deaths.

I don't have enough information to decide between the other three yet, do I? Occam's razor then points to C but I'm still not ruling anything out.

[cicero]

EBWOP on 3b

Was there no kill by the Daleks on Night0 then?

No. There was no kill by the Daleks. The Daleks "Exterminate". One clue about what happened to the Daleks though is this:

All in all not a bad night for the town atall.
In other news, Vollkan will enjoy a Double-Vote for today, whilst Mastermind of Sin will have no vote atall. Both votes must be used at the same time.

The Daleks targeted Mastermind of Sin and managed to steal his vote. Whether that was a botched kill or a conscious decision on their part is unknown.

[cicero]

Iammers --> Daleks (Vollkan. possible accomplice. ) We know this.

Eh? We know what, that Volkan killed Iammers? How do we know that, did I miss something? I had just been assuming that Iammars was killed because he claimed a unclear but non-vanillia role.

Yep. You are missing something. Vollkan is the last Dalek we know of. Daleks "Exterminate". Iammers was "Exterminated". I wrote "possible accomplice" because we don't know if Dalek Sek is in the game and a member of the Dalek mafia. In short, we don't know if we are all out of Daleks.

[cicero]

Yeah Yos. I think that's good thinking. So it being a side effect of who MoS is is more probable. I assumed it was an accident caused by Vollkan's night action from the get go, frankly.

The point of the post was just to try to discipline our thinking by showing what we know at this point so that people who want to do some interaction tracing would have some things to hang their hats on.

[cicero]

Vote : Cicero

ooh! Look at THIS sneaky bastard!

[cicero]

Cicero's self-vote is bugging me. Mainly because he was self-voting while

at the same time

opining that he thought ABR could still be town. Who does that? If someone calls me out (falsely) as scum, then (1) I go down screaming or (2) if I go quietly - not that this has ever happened to me personally - I go down pointing the finger at the one who falsely accused me.

But Cicero's going, like, yeah lynch me. But don't necessarily go after ABR afterwards, he could still be town. To which I can only say, WTF?

I am fairly well convinced ABR is lying about

something

, but exactly what he is lying about, or why he would be lying in the first place, remains a mystery.

It may be a mystery best solved by getting rid of Cicero after all though.

Vote: Cicero

mmm... the logic in here. It smells like... bandwagoning scum. Why don't you answer your own rhetorical question: who DOES do that? Does scum normally do that?

I did it because
a) I wanted to shake up the discussion
b) I think lynching me is probably necessary

I have no idea how one would choose what to do here. I have TWO completed games. I'm a smart guy, but the ninja moves one does when one is faced with a completely incorrect cop claim by a known liar and provacateur and is crazy goofball sidekick are unknown to me.

When I was voting myself ABR hadn't cast doubt on his cop claim. I thought for sure he had been screwed with by the scum. In a game where Vollkan gets Mastermind's vote such a mechanism is hardly unlikely.

Now though, we have more reason to believe ABR is lying. Yet you and Taffmaster have NOW decided to jump on. I find that fascinating.

Why are you lynching if you think ABR is lying? What will your next move be when my dead body says "Martha Jones - Doctor"?

Will you say "oops"?

[cicero]

I think Cicero is lying. But that is gut, and I could be wrong based on that alone.

However, I do not believe ABR is lying about his claim. I don't know this show, but if "The Doctor" is the head honcho, I don't see how no-one has counter claimed by now. And even if there are in-actives, do you guys really think ABR is stupid enough to even take the risk?

Vote : Cicero

I didnt think ABR was lying either. Until he intimated that he was.

Yes. I think ABR is

stupid

crazy

enough to even take the risk. As I said though, in this case I think these are the following most likely scenarios:

a) ABR is the Doctor and did not investigate me at all but thinks I am guilty and is gambitting. I find this highly likely.

b) ABR is the Doctor and investigated me but received an incorrect result. It would be a bit odd if the Doctor was an imperfect cop but I have a hunch here:

@ABR -> without going into details, can you do more than just cop?

It would not surprise me if the Doctor had a few powers but they worked somewhat imperfectly.

c) ABR investigated me but was role shifted. This was my original opinion but I think now it is a bit unlikely. I dont know what the mechanism would be and who would have done it. I dont know to who. Did they target me and make me "guilty" or did they target ABR and mess his power? I dont know Mafia advanced roles well enough but it still requires a bit of lottery luck for this to happen. So it is third most likely.

d) ABR is lying completely and is scum. He failed Erg0s "The Doctor" test in spades. The ONLY reason I can figure him doing this is if he has a win condition that requires him to find (and kill?) the real Doctor.

I would not rule this out

These are things to consider. Especially if I end up dead shortly.

[cicero]

So I'm confused. Do you want to be lynched ("lynching me is probably necessary") or are you actually trying not to be lynched anymore (since it was brought out that ABR is some kind of nutjob?)

You seem uncertain.

My next move, should you die and come up town, and assuming that ABR had continued to maintain that he had a guilty result on you up to the moment of your death, would be to roast him (figuratively speaking).

I am confused. I have two games done. At first I was quite resigned to it being necessary to lynch me but I have a couple of problems.

a) ABR

is

wrong.
b) If I beg for my own lynch, scum will jump on and hide behind "well he asked us too"
c) ABR has acted more and more like he is lying.

I would go by what a large majority of the really experienced players think in this case (since you can't trust any one of them).

[cicero]

Well, like I said, I don't know the show. How major is that character?

You know Batman? I'm Robin.

[cicero]

I'm going to have limited access the next few days (until Tuesday)

[cicero]

I'm somewhere in the middle of 63 catching up now, and I notice two things:
1. some people read incredibly imprecise
2. cicero is full of WIFOM, so full in fact I'm getting the impression nobody even bothers to point it out.

I WIFOM a lot. But then in other spots I concede. Hence why I say stuff like thinking I'm a dalek is stupid. Theorising that I'm a Slitheen though makes sense. I don't WIFOM Slitheen because my play thus far is not sub-optimal for the Slitheens.

WIFOM is overused. I see no problem with pointing out that I am not playing sub-optimally on purpose. Do with it whatever you want. I dont yet know how to play differently when I see such bad suppositions.

[cicero]

Sorry folks. I'm still new. I'll try to improve over time. Best I can do. Let me complete a few games.

As for Yosarian's question, it's because Daleks were two down and I jumped up and down and did everything in my power to get Flameaxe killed and explicitly stated that that might test Vollkan as well. Bussing like that would have been asinine. I certainly wouldnt have done it if I KNEW they were my Dalek buddies. I'm inexperienced (in terms of completed games) but not a complete idiot. I point out regularly that I don't really play suboptimally on purpose. At least not yet. People can do with it what they want. I think it's the heighth of mental laziness to look at someone saying "I would not have" and then shut your brain off, stop listening, and respond "WIFOM!". But I'm a newbie. Who knows what I'll believe after 20 completed games.

Conversely though, you'll note that I can't say all that stuff with respect to the Slitheen. I simply cannot say that I would not have played as I am playing as a Slitheen. I also have what looks like it could be a perfect safe claim. So I can't say things that make you yell WIFOM with respect to that because they simply don't apply.

/shrug

[cicero]

No one has posted here all day. That leads me to believe that no one knows what to do. and THAT means it is more likely I will get lynched. One of the dynamics of Mafia is that people would rather do something than nothing. And nobody will really be faulted for voting for me so it's an easy way to push forward. At the end of the day I dont mind that, but I urge everyone to go back and have a look at what other scumtells they can see, and what other avenues they might pursue, before deciding what to do. Who else is suspicious? What can you glean from people's interactions?

Personally, I'm going back to

unvote. vote taffmaster

. I didnt understand his claim so I cant assess it and overall I've found his play scummy and Omgussy (towards me). So consider this a reverse omgus for the moment. :p

McPaltp also confuses me. How do you guys continue to play with a guy pretending to have a post restriction? How do you even judge scumtells one way or the other?

What am I to make of DrippingGoofballs singleminded focus on my lynch? There is simply no doubt in her mind that I am the play. Do you know who has no doubt in there minds? Scum.

Why did Fonz decide that he could aask everyone for a poll on whether to "solve the ABR/Cicero situation or pursue other avenues" without articulating an opinion himself?

Finally, Albert B. Rampage has absolutely refused to give people an unequivocal statement that he is not lying. Why would the town ignore that?

These and other avenues need to be followed up on.



I

[cicero]

Finally, Albert B. Rampage has absolutely refused to give people an unequivocal statement that he is not lying. Why would the town ignore that?

That's madness, I've said time and time again that you are scum, and I've never come back on my words. Granted, there may have been a mafia framer, but that's a 1% chance. So I don't KNOW you are scum, nobody knows anything until you appear dead. However, based on my result, I think you are scum. I also think it won't hurt to explore other avenues before the day ends.

Albert that isnt the question. The questions you ignored were:

a) Are you in fact a cop? You answered with a coy "at least that is what I'm leading you to believe" and

b) my own question - if you are cop, do you have other powers besides cop powers? This was asked for the purpose of assessing whether your investigation might be flawed for game balance reasons.

[cicero]

a) Yes.

b) I find this question irrelevant.

It isn't irrelevant. But you gave the answer I expected anyway. It means, as I expected, that you have more than just cop powers. The thing with that is it should explain to you why you should doubt your own results. Think game balance.

[cicero]

We have he who claims to see evil in our midst. If we do not act now, we will have the same problem in the future. Waiting and failing to seek evil harms the forces of good. Those who claim so harm the cause of light.

Lynch All Liars

[cicero]

I still think your post restriction is fake. I think it lets you be opaque and hard to read. Difficult to argue with as well.

[cicero]

MoS - are you just going to keep accusing me of using a safe claim over and over again? Everyone knows that's a possibility already. I have personally brought it up as something to consider. Repeating it doesnt exactly add value.

I totally appreciate some of you not believing me. Point is made. In this case it happens to be incorrect. The only evidence I have to show you is how I dealt with Caps. You can go and read it and believe it or don't.

If you're making some other point I'd love to have the opportunity to respond to it.

[cicero]

If an evil is known, why not remove it?

But an evil is not known. You are assuming ABR's guilty is correct. In this case it simply is not.

[cicero]

I am no more or less than I claim to be. If I confuse you, I can clarify.

This doesn't tell me anything and Im not interested in you clarifying. I'm not role fishing and there's an excellent chance you're lying. All I see is someone pushing a potential mislynch and lying about a post restriction. You can "clarify" if you end up close to getting lynched like the rest of us.

[cicero]

What is the lie? Who is "us"?

Lie = your so called post restriction.

Us = the town.

Why are you playing dumb and intimating things that aren't there?

[cicero]

I remember. I didn't believe you then. I believe you now.

[cicero]

Unvote. Vote mcpaltp

Strange bedfellows.

I still got my eye on you Taffmaster. we shall SPEAK again soon I hope. :p

[cicero]

They should just call this Grudge mafia...

Early Predictions in my reread... I think Kanaga, Jamuraan, and Flameaxe are most likely mafia... Getting town vibes from Yamahako and Caps, and I am not so sure about Vollkan...

>.>

Yay for being helpful!

Yew haff a funny sense of humor, meester. hahahee hahaheehoho.

[cicero]

Unvote.

defile corpse: Flameaxe

LMAO