Doctor Who Mafia 2- GAME OVER!

[Erg0]

Vote: Taffmaster

Exactly the same reason as CDb.

[Erg0]

It's still a good tell. I don't know why, but scum continue to do it despite the fact that it's commonly known.

Regardless of the fast jump at the start of the day, you wouldn't have been lynched so quickly that you couldn't have defended yourself. Fast wagons are fine, fast lynches are suspicious.

[Erg0]

I dunno, you could take your pick in this game.

Just so people know I'm not pulling this tell out of my ass, I direct you to thisrecent game. Note that two players express surprise and/or indignation at the night results at the start of day 1. Their roles: one mafia, one SK. These are experienced players, not noobs, and yet they still fell into this trap.

I seriously don't know why people still do this despite the tell being in the "rulebook", as it were. It's like unicorns and ice cream sandwiches - it should not be, and yet it is.

[Erg0]

So why are you voting for Tar and not Aisar?

[Erg0]

Because I don't agree with voting someone out of principle on some BS rule. It doesn't make sense. It's an easy out so that he doesn't have to explain his vote.

But you apparently agree with the principle. You're voting him on principle for voting someone on principle?

[Erg0]

Follow up question: if you think he was avoiding explaining his vote, why make a "well duh" post when he

does

explain it? Wouldn't that indicate that it didn't

need

explaining?

[Erg0]

I took that comment as referring more to the player than their role.

Probably better if Tar takes it from here, I don't want to put words in his mouth. Suffice it to say that I don't buy it.

[Erg0]

This isn't about playing to the wiki. I don't use scumtells unless I've seen them work myself, and this one does work. The wiki documents the tell, it does not dictate it.

[Erg0]

This isn't about playing to the wiki. I don't use scumtells unless I've seen them work myself, and this one does work. The wiki documents the tell, it does not dictate it.

It works on here, maybe. Different strokes for different folks.

Its not working right now

Scumtells are universal. The only variation between sites is whether people are aware of them.

[Erg0]

Can we stop measuring and just lynch the scum please?

[Erg0]

That was my point.

[Erg0]

2) The list of scumtells in Wiki works as long as people are not aware that there is such a list in wiki. Taffmaster evidently did not, so his comment is a scum tell.

The list of scum tells work in this forum maybe, but they are not neccesarilly universal. Lynching me would prove that.

"This forum" has nothing to do with it. The people who commit this tell are, by and large, MS newbies like yourself. They come here from all over the place, yet it has been observed that there are certain similarities in their behaviour when they are scum. What makes you so different from the myriad other MS newbies that this observation doesn't apply to you?

If you're town, lynching you just adds one point in the "miss" column for this particular tell. It doesn't invalidate the whole idea.

BTW, if anyone's still looking for validation on ABR I can confirm that I've played with him as town on at least three occasions and he's been like this in every game. He was, however, much quieter in the one game I played where he was scum. I'm fairly sure he would have ironed this out by now, so his play right now is basically a null tell in my eyes.

[Erg0]

I could probably

FoS ChronX

at this point.

[Erg0]

I think I know who mcpaltp is.

[Erg0]

Yup, that's what I thought.

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They're not italicised?

Incidentally, I drew the same conclusion about his role. More on this when I have more time.

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Ugh. There is so much useless crap in this game that I can't be bothered to read it. I'm riding this vote to deadline.

[Erg0]

Unfortunately you can't, because you don't have a vote.

Regardless, it's Taffmaster.

[Erg0]

At this rate we'll never need to lynch anyone...

So yeah, I'm still voting for Taffmaster.

[Erg0]

So why'd you vote for Taffmaster? Not that I'm complaining, you understand.

[Erg0]

Hmmm.

Unvote

[Erg0]

Tar, why did you just claim?

[Erg0]

Also, given that this is a game about time travelling it's not so preposterous that we could have two different incarnations of the same character.

[Erg0]

Vote: ChronX

Scum giving up.

[Erg0]

I'm just wondering why anyone other than scum would call the game "disheartening".

[Erg0]

"Without a doubt pro-town" is a very strong statement. I agree that Taff's character would normally be considered pro-town, but we shouldn't assume anything from the flavour at this early stage,

[Erg0]

Even if it's his real role name, I'm not comfortable with assuming he's a townie based on that. This is probably due in no small part to his scummy play.

Oh, and

Unvote

since it seems that ChronX was just playing the emo card.

[Erg0]

This wagon is lame.

Vote: Albert B. Rampage

, he's playing to his scum meta (or not paying attention).

[Erg0]

Scum meta he is playing to?

You seem too mild-mannered to me.

[Erg0]

I'm not a fan of Adel's proposed strategy, as it's basically game-breaking and should, in my opinion, be disallowed by moderators. It's one thing to encrypt your role during a massclaim, but doing it on day 1 breaks claims in favour of the town. Yeah yeah, game of deception and whatnot - I still disagree with it.

I'd rather we didn't waste a huge amount of space discussing this in-thread, so I'll direct you all here, where this idea has been discussed at length. I'd suggest at least skimming that thread before you post in here on the subject.

[Erg0]

*bangs head against wall*

1. it will still be a mafia game

2. it is not banned

3. our moderator specifically said in the rules for this game that he doesn't mind codes

~~~

when i am town the rest of the town won't follow my ideas for fear of "breaking the game for town" and when i am scum my scum buddies won't follow my plans for fear of "breaking the game for scum". i am really getting frustrated with my win percentage being below 30%.

~~~

*bangs head against the wall*

What you're experiencing is a conflict between your goals and those of your fellow players. My winning percentage sucks but I don't mind so much as long as I'm enjoying my games and learning from them. I'm just not that person that immediately tries to figure out the best percentage strategy in every situation, but it's a perfectly valid way to play. In your case, though, you need everyone else to agree to your preferred course of action ,and that's always going to be a tough row to hoe.

[Erg0]

I don't see Iammars as a reasonable lynch. I'm less sure about Flameaxe, but I'm always less sure about Flameaxe. I don't think we should be narrowing our scope to these two when we have much scummier players available, such as ABR, Shteven and Taffmaster.

[Erg0]

I quite like my little wagon, it's a slow builder.

Will switch at deadline if need be, though. Would prefer if everyone else switched to my wagon, of course.

[Erg0]

Ok, time to do this:

Unvote, Vote: Shteven

pete d: I take it your Flameaxe vote was purely for the lurking? Did you unvote him simply for proving that he'd read the thread?

[Erg0]

Sec is not the emperor. We've probably got one more dalek.

[Erg0]

I don't think we have any Slitheen. Is there evidence to suggest otherwise?

[Erg0]

Albert, what's your role name?

[Erg0]

I can read. It's a legit question. Please nobody comment on this subject til Albert answers.

[Erg0]

So it says Doctor Who in your PM?

[Erg0]

The reason I ask is that the character's name isn't Doctor Who, it's The Doctor. Either BM made an error in the flavour or you're lying about your role.

[Erg0]

I don't really believe Albert's claim. This may be a "boy who cried wolf" scenario, but my question on his role name seemed perfectly clear to me and he does have a storied history of pulling weird stuff. That said, it's entirely possible that he's town anyway.

Looks like I might hae to resort to actually reading the game after all.

[Erg0]

I have an inkling, but if I'm right then I don't know why Tar would announce himself like that.

I guess we'll see soon enough.

[Erg0]

All correct, with a clarification on the last point - the discrepancy is in the effect of his protection, since his night 2 target (Adel) died but his night 1 target (mcpaltp) did not. mcpaltp seems to be claiming unkillable status, which is one possible explanation if cicero's claim is true. Another is that cicero has a role known as CPR doc, which protects a target who is targeted for a nightkill by another player on that night, but kills a target who is not.

As to who is telling the truth, that's for you to decide.

[Erg0]

I think Cicero is lying. But that is gut, and I could be wrong based on that alone.

However, I do not believe ABR is lying about his claim. I don't know this show, but if "The Doctor" is the head honcho, I don't see how no-one has counter claimed by now. And even if there are in-actives, do you guys really think ABR is stupid enough to even take the risk?

Vote : Cicero

You can be damn sure that Martha Jones is in this game somewhere - by your thinking, shouldn't we have a counterclaim against cicero by now if he's lying?

[Erg0]

Other thought: the last time I saw a CPR doc was in Evil Genius mafia, which was modded by Zindaras. You'll note that his name is on this game as a co-designer, so it's quite possible that a similar role would be in this game.

[Erg0]

Pretty much. Martha is the Doctor's current sidekick, meaning she's the second billed character on the show at present.

[Erg0]

And there would be no reason for the character to, for some reason, be scum?

Not from a flavour perspective, at least not that I can think of. Having said that, there's no guarantee that BM has stuck with canonical flavour.

[Erg0]

Since no one has counterclaimed cop I doubt that ABR is insane. He's probably sane.

That doesn't really make sense. I would hope that the real cop wouldn't counterclaim on day 2, especially since there's no real gain from it - we could have multiple cops, so a counterclaim proves nothing at all.

[Erg0]

Bah you're so agreeable now, how can I vote you.

Unvote, vote mcpaltp

Do you doubt your own result now?

[Erg0]

I would like to get this sill PR thing sorted out. mcpaltp is useless to us at this point.

vote: mcpaltp

[Erg0]

If his behaviour is as you describe then I'd definitely consider him a good suspect. I'll reread and see if I concur.

(This post is mostly to remind myself to reread him when I have a moment)

[Erg0]

Thinking about this further, Face of Boe is bound to be in here somewhere and I think it's a likely pro-town role. Even if mcpaltp is faking the post restriction, that doesn't mean he's faking the role.

Having said that, unkillable townie is an awesome scum fakeclaim.

[Erg0]

Sure, let's do that.

Vote: Lowell

[Erg0]

EBWOP:

Unvote, Vote: Lowell

[Erg0]

Elton Pope makes sense as a tracker, he was collecting information on aliens and the Doctor as I recall.

Albert, are you still claiming the same flavour, except as a tracker instead of a cop?

[Erg0]

Unvote, Vote Albert B. Rampage

Problem solved.

[Erg0]

Let's not have another one of those discussions.

Bottom line: We're in a good enough position that we can afford a mislynch, and based on that I think it's in the town's interests to off Albert at this point whether he's scum or not. This is not a problem that will be solved by waiting, I think we're better off saving any power roles from wasting actions on him tonight.

[Erg0]

Vote ABR

Erg0, yeah personally I dont quite know how to handle the CPR doc-ness. I really dont feel like randomly experimenting on someone with it. I think I'll play as a vanilla townie. I dont really see much other choice for the moment. No matter what else we know we know that I targetted Adel and Adel is dead. Future nightkills may show another explanation but for the moment I'm going on the theory that I kill patients.

Any disagreement?

I don't know if you need to play as a townie, but you probably shouldn't play as a doctor. If you think you've got a good test subject then have a go, but it's probably best to keep your intentions to yourself as much as possible.

[Erg0]

Fine, then.

Unvote, Vote: Lowell

This is a highly unorthodox game.

[Erg0]

Well that sucks. What'd I do?

[Erg0]

Another point of interest: If I was swapped with Ecto last night then that would mean that

he

was targeted to have his vote removed, and

I

was targeted for death. I'm not sure whether that's more likely than the alternative.

Korlash, why did you choose to target Ecto and me? That seems kind of random...

[Erg0]

Sorry, I thought Fonz was asking about a previous night - my timelines are confused. Good to see I was right about it being random, though.

The flavour stuff pointed out above is pretty damning, I have to say. Pretty big coincidence that you claim to have twice targeted players who were targeted by our unknown killer, too.

A general question then - did Ecto do something significant that I missed? Is anyone prepared to admit to having targeted him for vote removal?

[Erg0]

Ok then, I'll clarify: don't admit to it if you didn't do it.

[Erg0]

Of course I am, what a ridiculous question.

Tar was a jailkeeper which is usually a doctor/roleblocker. I suppose he could have removed a player's vote rather than blocking their night action, but that seems unlikely unless he didn't protect anyone night 2 (nobody lost their vote yesterday). I think it's more likely that we have an individual that simply targets a player and removes their vote for the next day. The main question is whether or not that player is pro-town and/or willing to claim and confirm/deny your night action.

[Erg0]

Since Korlash has been kind enough to out me: I am the vote giver, but I do not take votes away (obviously, since I lost mine today). I targeted Yos last night, which leads me to believe that Korlash is at least telling the truth about the roleblocking. There was no double voter on day 2 because I targeted Adel, who died.

I'm disinclined to believe that the town would have two roleblockers (Tar and Korlash) but I suppose it's possible given that they're both weak. Drawing the conclusion that I must be the SK because there was one less kill when I was blocked is a bit of a stretch given the number of power roles we probably still have and the fact that there are a number of players known not to have submitted night actions last night.

[Erg0]

Why do you want my flavour, cicero? I don't think it's necessary for the purposes of this argument.

[Erg0]

Well I deliberately omitted the flavour because I wasn't claiming by choice or to prove anything about myself. I'd prefer to reveal only the relevant information rather than blab my flavour for no reason and potentially eliminate a scum fakeclaim.

[Erg0]

It seemed to me that Korlash knew (or thought he knew) that I was the vote giver, since he mentioned it several times in his post (e.g. "He has both a killing ability and some ability that gives a player a double vote"). The main reason I claimed was to validate his roleblocker claim - the town needed to know that he was telling the truth about that. Besides that, I don't really consider myself a high value target since my ability isn't particularly useful in the current situation.

The only way that I could see Korlash faking the RB claim is that he has a buddy who is a RB and targeted me (seems unlikely). He would have to make an incredibly lucky guess to know that I was the vote giver if he didn't know I'd been blocked.

His other claimed abilities are unproven since they relate to information which is commonly available (i.e. dead players). The large number of kills on night 1 versus nights 0 and 2 make it difficult to resolve which kills belong to whom, but the 5 deaths on night 1 would seem to indicate that there is more than one pro-town killer. Overall, I think it's possible that Korlash is telling the truth, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's likely given his unnecessary lie on the first claim and the continuing inconsistency with the tracker's single result on him. If I had a vote he'd probably be getting it right now.

[Erg0]

I am not about to believe Korlash because of obvious reasons BUT if he didn't block Ergo who did? Also the part I underligned seems to imply that Korlash KNEW Ergo was the vote giver. A roleblocking could not give you enough indication, after all night1 there was no nulling or giving of votes. Ergo targeted Adel that night. And yet Ergo claims and says he is the Vote Giver. Either Korlash assumed too much based on his blocking or he just bsed his way into getting Ergo to out a role he did not necessary know Ergo had.

Oh, I think I see the confusion: I targeted vollkan night 0, Adel night 1 and Yos night 2. vollkan got the double vote, Adel was killed the same night and I was blocked (apparently by Korlash) when giving it to Yos. The night 2 block is the one we're talking about here, I think you may have your nights confused.

[Erg0]

Re the missing kill: Don't forget that Tar was half-doc and could have prevented a kill. Also it's entirely possible that one of the killing roles failed to send in their action. There's no reason that the SK

has

to be you or me, that's a false dilemma.

[Erg0]

The problem with the tracker only seeing Korlash target one player (vollkan) on night 1 does still exist, though. Being the GF it's unlikely that vollkan would have sent in the kill, so it's entirely possible that Korlash simply blocked him night 1. Of course, that would imply that Korlash is either part of a second scumgroup or an SK, not a Dalek.

[Erg0]

So Korlash is proven to be a roleblocker and semi-proven to be a killer (in that he was tracked to a player that died but we can't be sure that he killed him). I suppose we must have more pro-town killing roles than usual (based on the 5 kills night 1), but a player with both abilities seems pretty powerful for a townie.

[Erg0]

Buuuut vollkan was the Godfather. I would have expected that you'd get an innocent result from him, especially since he clearly wasn't unkillable.

[Erg0]

It's not your internet, the site is screwy right now.

[Erg0]

Buuuut vollkan was the Godfather. I would have expected that you'd get an innocent result from him, especially since he clearly wasn't unkillable.

pshhh you can't hide from a God...

I don't put a lot of stock in this theory, I'm afraid.

[Erg0]

Korlash's vote wasn't bolded, so we still need a hammer. I do wonder if he did that deliberately as one final ploy.

[Erg0]

I find it ironic two townies have died so far this game because they both lied. XD

I should point out that I don't see the irony here. If you really are town, the simplest solution would have been not to lie.

[Erg0]

Actually, he missed the slash in the unbold tag.

I do agree with you, though.

[Erg0]

In case nobody guessed, I gave the double vote to TaffMaster last night. I had thought the scum would be more likely to kill Fonzie, but evidently I was wrong. We're bound to have a fairly large majority at this point, so no big.

I'm guessing that Korlash must have both blocked me and taken my vote yesterday - the only other explanation would be that someone else blocked me and Korlash made a

really

lucky guess.

[Erg0]

I targeted Adel night 1, and she died at the hand of another. Hence, no reason for Korlash to have known that I was the vote giver other than having blocked me night 2.

If Korlash did perform both a block and vote steal with the same action (as the evidence suggests) then he would have blocked MoS night 0. Korlash claimed to have killed vollkan, didn't he? If he was telling the truth then the CPR doc theory is not likely to be correct.

All of our known roleblockers are dead now, so it's unlikely that anyone was blocked last night. I also doubt that we have any more doctors waiting in the wings, so if there were any missed scum kills then it would most likely be because of failure to submit a choice.

I'm pretty sure that I originally said I didn't think that the flavour necessarily suggested a Slitheen scumgroup, and I'm feeling more confident about that now. My role PM mentions the Slitheen, but goes on to say that I am now dealing with "tougher" enemies, which fits with Daleks, Cybermen and The Master.

[Erg0]

You should probably read all of mcpaltp's posts, there's some stuff in there that we want to know about - he did claim earlier, plus he was posting in a style that he led us to believe was imposed on him by the mod. Apparently that wasn't the case after all, given that you're not following the same style.

[Erg0]

Any reason we can't vig Xtoxm instead of lynching him? We've pretty much got nothing for the vig to do otherwise...

(Although the innocent result obviously clouds things.)

[Erg0]

I feel like a massclaim today is a sign of impatience. We've probably still got a cop out there, so my preference would be that they breadcrumb their innocent results at some point in case they get killed, and we keep lynching scummy players until they come up with a guilty result and claim (if need be). Odds are we have no protective roles left, so a massclaim will just give the remaining scum a free pass to kill off the juiciest power roles. It's pretty unlikely that we'll get to endgame with too few provable claims to auto-win, anyway.

[Erg0]

[1] DO NOT quote your role PMs directly. You may however paraphrase aspects of your flavour. The only parts of your PM which you can quote directly, are your role and name.

That's the rule on role PM quoting. In other words, synonyms are ok.

[Erg0]

I should vote.

Vote: Lowell

He

really

wants to claim.

[Erg0]

I agree with PokerFace (and others), it seems highly likely that at least some of the scum have had fakeclaims provided to them.

[Erg0]

I should vote.

Vote: Lowell

He

really

wants to claim.

Heh, it's true. I have one of those claims that won't make scum all that happy. Sure you don't want to change your vote?

So do you want to claim or not? You seem very keen to out yourself, but at the same time you don't want to be voted. I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve here.

[Erg0]

That's essentially what I'm getting at. If the mafia are going to hate it so much, and you're happy saying that out loud, then there's no reason to wait until you're at lynch-1 to make the claim. If you're not scum then you've already marked yourself as a nightkill target.

[Erg0]

I picked PokerFace semi-randomly, simply because I thought he was unlikely to die. The double vote isn't worth much at this point, so I mainly wanted to actually hit someone who stayed alive in order to avoid any speculation that I'd fakeclaimed (since it only worked once before). I figure that vote giver is a pretty obviously town role, so taking myself off the list of suspects is more important for the town than the extra vote itself.

Having said that, I never would have picked the two kills that we had, so I'm probably lucky that the kiss of death didn't hit PokerFace too.

In that case I don't trust Fonz, I think he's lying about vig.

vote Fonz

It seems you are now a confirmed townie, cicero. Either insane or cpr. It matters little which...

I asked for some evidence.

I trust Fonz just fine. He pretty much netted us the Master singlehandedly. Go back and read that part of the game.

Finding the SK does not make someone town. The scum are just as capable of SK-hunting as the town is - sometimes more so due to their inside knowledge (see me in Methodical Mafia for an example).

Is there any real reason for Cicero and Fonz

not

to declare kill targets in advance at this point?

[Erg0]

One other thing: if anyone has any information that contradicts the assumptions we've made regarding the source of each nightkill, I think that now would definitely be a good time to raise it.

[Erg0]

Why? Is it important somehow?

[Erg0]

A scum vote giver doesn't really make much sense, I would have thought - the role would be all but useless since it would be very dangerous to give the vote to anyone who's on your team. The occasions when I've seen vote givers they've always been town. You can see that our vote stealer was a bad guy, so it makes sense for the vote giver to be a good guy. To me, it just doesn't make much sense for it to be anything other than a town role.

Cicero: if I tell you my flavour and it's pro-town, will that make you trust me any more than you do now? I suspect that the answer is no, hence my question.

Since almost everybody has claimed by now, I might as well get it out there: I'm Harriet Jones, the MP who helped stop the Slitheen and went on to become Prime Minister (and was eventually defeated by Harold Saxon, aka The Master).

[Erg0]

Actually, I only just noticed the neat bit of flavour symmetry with the Master's vote stealing ability - I'd forgotten that he took over from me as PM. I guess that helps to explain why the SK had such an unusual power.

[Erg0]

So the last 3 unclaimed players are Pokerface, Yosarian2 and Axelrod (who has partially claimed). Have we implicitly agreed to a massclaim here? If so, I'd like to see Axelrod claim first, I think. There's a really good reason, but hopefully I won't have to explain it.

[Erg0]

So the last 3 unclaimed players are Pokerface, Yosarian2 and Axelrod (who has partially claimed). Have we implicitly agreed to a massclaim here? If so, I'd like to see Axelrod claim first, I think. There's a really good reason, but hopefully I won't have to explain it.

eh, there's a good reason for me to "fully" claim last actually. Unless you happen to find me the most suspicious, you don't want the scum knowing what is safe/not safe to claim - and I'm mainly talking about ability here since it appears the scum have safe claims.

I think they've already got a fair idea of your ability, though only you'd know if there's much more to it than you've previously revealed, I suppose.

[Erg0]

Likewise. Whoever's here next should just claim.

[Erg0]

Well, whatever. It's not like my claim is going to help much anyway. I'm Adam Mitchell, vanillia.

Do you have any flavour to go with that? Adam Mitchell was a bit of a mixed bag in the series, as I recall.

[Erg0]

Good enough for me.

Vote: Yosarian2

[Erg0]

Wow, it feels like ages since I've actually lived to the end of a game. Even though this was a bit flukey, I'll take it.

I had great fun in this game, the setup was certainly conducive to drama. I don't know whether to be happy or sad that I targeted scum for the double vote three times - although I was trying to use it more as a pressure tool (i.e. bringing focus on a player) than as an actual benefit. Maybe my instincts are better than I thought.

[Erg0]

Wow, I never noticed that - I guess I subconsciously suppressed it as unfairly gained knowledge or something.

I checked, and the last game in which I survived to the end as town was Assassins in the Palace, which ended last August. That's a long time between drinks!

[Erg0]

LOL - I was tossing up between MoS and vollkan for the double vote on night 0. If I'd gone with MoS then it would have been

really

confusing.