Shadowrun Mafia - Game Over

[karnos]

Draft: Bounty Hunter

[karnos]

Draft: Bounty Hunter

boba fett.

I mean, male.

[karnos]

This game started up quick. Reading...

[karnos]

VOTE: Space Cowboy

Yeah, this is the wagon to be on. Even though it fits my RVS meta, this is a

real

vote.

On a side note, it confused me to hell that the dragon hydra isn't the one that includes Fire Bringer.

@Jaereed: As a bounty hunter, I'm excellent at combat & logic, I can be awfully persuasive, and apparently even magical stuff is within my area of specialty. Just don't expect me to be much help with any medical needs or hacking that crazy internet matrix thingy. Willing to work!

[karnos]

UNVOTE:

Don't trust this wagon if math agrees with me on it tbh.

~Fire

If MathBlade is scum, he is probably busing anyway. His vote shouldn't scare you from the wagon.

[karnos]

His vote

their vote

Sorry. Trying to make it a point to get pronouns correct.

[karnos]

The first priority is ensuring town go on the runs, and someone's towniness is not something which can be determined by their role name.

This might be an incredibly dumb question: why does it matter if town or scum are sent on a mission?

I don't see any choice to deliberately fail a mission as being an option (presumably for scum). I also don't see how passing a mission is purely pro-town, or how failing a mission is pro-scum. It seems to me that scum on a mission could suffer glitches just as often as town players.

What is the danger in sending off a mission team that might include a scum?

[karnos]

Well, in SaGa, you gained abilities from missions that could be used later on in the game.

For instance, I spent SaGa trying to go on an adventure that would make me immune to kills. I was already lynchproof, so making me bulletproof would make me deathproof and give me a win almost for sure.

Okay, so flip things around. Mission makes the townies on it immune to kills if successful. But because we prioritize sending a "confirmed town" team instead of team that can actually succeed, the mission fails and all the town on it get penalties instead of the bonus.

I understand that in a perfect world, you would never send scum on a mission. But A: we don't know who the scum are, and B: failing a mission because we didn't bring the right skill set isn't going to help us at all.

[karnos]

Pedit: Karnos, there are more town than scum. It is almost certain that an all town composition can be created to deal with ANY mission in this game. Prioritizing certain success over denying scum power is very dumb.

Sure, if you can 100% accurately detect scum on day 1 with zero false positives.

OTOH, if you can do that who gives a shit about missions? Just lynch all the scum and win, easy game is easy.

In reality, where we don't have magical scum detection on day 1, the alternative is to only send the most confirmed town, of which there might only be 2-4 players depending on who you ask. I don't think it's far fetched to suggest that those few characters might not be perfectly optimized for every mission.

[karnos]

Would you rather a. fail a mission, or b. make a scum deathproof?

Given what currently know about the game, B is not even a negative unless town has a vigilante or such. Lynching sends to prison, deathproof doesn't imply prisonproof. As far as I know only scum can kill players so deathproof players aren't really a concern for me.

Are you scum or did you just forget the lynch mechanic of the game?

[karnos]

2) The possibility that scum may somehow sabotage runs and thus deny power to town.

Here is the irony: you & Space Cowboy could be doing just this, right now. Suggesting we only send the most confirmed characters at the expense of optimizing the mission group essential means sabotaging our chances of successful missions.

[karnos]

@karnos deathproof implies lynchproof as well.

In a game with prison and no flip upon "lynch"? Do you have a game reference I can look at, because that sounds a little absurd, but I'll admit this is my first game of this kind here.

[karnos]

Ok, I figured as much, but I just wanted to make sure.

So karnos is wrong once again. I'm concerned that it's deliberate wrongness to try and lead town astray...

Again?

What was I wrong about the first time?

I didn't realize it was a known term.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Deathproof

Okay, so it's defined as being lynch proof.

FWIW, this whole line of discussion started with

For instance, I spent SaGa trying to go on an adventure that would make me immune to kills. I was already lynchproof, so making me bulletproof would make me deathproof and give me a win almost for sure.

I thought we were still talking about that, immune to kills = deathproof as you said. Please don't come out accusing me of being wrong just because I took your post at face value. I also think it's a big jump to assume that an adventure mod will grant deathproof because a prior game adventure mod granted kill proof- one ability is much stronger than the other, I think you are making false assumptions.

Again, taking your post at face value, you did NOT get lynch proof from the adventure, you already had it somehow ("I was already lynchproof"), so I'm not sure why that immediately leads you to conclude that adventures are going to make people deathproof.

[karnos]

Karnos, Scum can collect whatever benefits the mission offers. Enough to offset the same benefits gained by Town.

IME, town with a bunch of power roles is a lot stronger than sucm with extra power roles.

I recently played the "Stack the Deck" setup, which is a setup with pre-game where scum can pick extra powers, but for each power they pick town gets another PR. Scum picked exactly 0 powers, and won nicely. At the end of the game there was a bit of discussion about it, and pretty much everyone agreed that it's not worth picking anything because the risk of giving town an extra PR is much greater than the gain of an extra scum power.

Why do you think the opposite is true here?

Regardless, this whole tangent has gotten pretty far off from my original thought. I'd agree if we knew exactly who was scum, don't send them on serious missions, but historically mafiascum.net games are pretty fucking awful at finding scum on day 1. It's show less than a 50% success rate out of my past games, which means excluding "scum" from a mission today you are just as likely to be excluding a town player. It's fake strategy, something a scum suggests that might sound good but realistically can't be acted upon.

[karnos]

Oh boy! Another chance to prove karnos wrong!

1. It's better if you don't find a scum D1 because that means it was almost certainly a bus, and it really muddies the waters for later days. It's far better to build the result of D1 to give you the best D2 you can. (I know that this is counter-meta, but I've noticed that scum teams that don't go for the easy lynch, and instead go for someone who could prove troublesome later tend to win more)

2. Stack the Deck is way more town-sided in the abilities.

1: Okay you totally missed the point. If we can't catch scum day 1, what exactly makes you think we can identify scum to keep them out of mission groups? Either we can detect scum and remove them from the missions, or we can't in which case the idea of keeping scum out of the mission is a fake idea based on something we can't actually do.

Hey guys I have a great idea! Lets lynch scum today! I think if we do that, we will increase town's chance of winning! /s

2: How the hell do you know that? We don't know what the bonuses are here. You are acting like you have some inside knowledge about the game when obviously you don't. The fact that a broken combination of powers existing in a past game, IMO, makes such powers LESS likely to exist is this game. You don't re-run a broken setup, you fix it's problems and run a similar but improved setup.

I don't believe the moderators would create a broken game intentionally, as you seem to be insinuating.

[karnos]

Cerb, the thing is, his posts are so misguided that there is no

conceivable

way that someone could be this dense/misguided. He is saying things that anyone with any sort of game experience would know aren't true. He's evidently got

some

experience, so he has to know they aren't true, ergo he must be trying to misguide others.

I refuse to believe that someone could be that wrong. It's a ridiculous premise.

Okay, specifics please. You can't make a claim like that without backing it up with some examples.

Here is this will proceed: you quote the exact statement I made that "anyone with any sort of game experience would know aren't true". Then I will show you an example from another game where a town player said essentially the same thing, and then we will proceed to lynch you, because you are obvious scum going for what you think is an easy town lynch.

All of your specific examples of why I am "obviously wrong" are based around your experience in a couple specific games. Not general mafia/werewolf games at all.

Additionally, the "broken combination" was very difficult to get. Even if I was universally town-read, I would still have had to go on an adventure 3-4 times!

It's possible to balance out powerful combinations (not broken) by making them require an extensively large amount of effort to get.

Look at this backpedaling. Earlier you were making it sound like we were doomed forever if a single scum got into a mission. Now you seem to be saying it's not really a big deal, it's only dangerous if scum get to run on 3-4 missions. I think you realized you overplayed your hand, said pretty obvious BS in your eagerness to get me lynched, and now are moving the goalposts.

[karnos]

You're pushing really really hard for my lynch because you don't agree with my mechanics analysis...

Actually, I was already voting you before all of this discussion took place, for other reasons.

[karnos]

MathBlade is acting a bit weird compared to the last game, maybe this is town MathBlade? I dunno. I've just never seen them not tunnel one person continually.

I'm kinda busy today, not sure if I can be active or not. I don't feel any reason to move my vote, Space Cowboy still looks like a good pick for prison IMO.

[karnos]

karnos (1):

Space Cowboy, MathBlade

@MOD: Is this correct?

I don't think 1+1 = 1, but maybe there is something going on...

[karnos]

I'm in both matrix & astral, as a viewer only. I have no reason to hide the information. As a bounty hunter, I have my sources of information...

I'm also generally busy this weekend, so apologies for low activity in advance. Please take it slow re: Space Cowboy, there is no reason to rush a lynch when we have plenty of time remaining. I still he is probably scum, and I'm not unvoting at this time, but please just play smart town.

[karnos]

Sup McMenno.

[karnos]

I should be sleeping, but gotta make a few comments after McMenno's weird slip.

[karnos]

So here is the thing. Without breaking the rules I can't quote directly what he said in the matrix, but I can say what he said is started to look incredibly weird.

So he posts something along the lines of: 'oh no I slipped, give me advice to dodge the wagon' and then he calls out space cowboy by name.

And then her makes another post claiming the previous post was accidentally posted in the wrong pt.


So, not just scummy, he would have to be really bad scum or perhaps scum pissed off at his teammates, or throwing the game to post anything like that. I don't know the player, maybe someone who has played with him before can speak about whether or not he is likely to make such a grave error and not just slip himself, but also call out a scum buddy.

TBH, it sounds like a fool's tactic. Is there any chance that the game could include a role that has a win condition based on being sent to prison on day 1? Or, maybe I am just reading too much into it, maybe the first slip was real and this is just some lame misdirect slip.

I dunno. If there is some town incentive behind such a gambit I don't see it.

[karnos]

VOTE: mcmenno

This needs attention.

[karnos]

So who confirmed the part of saying Space Cowboy?
Seems a little convenient.

I did, because that is what McMenno said.

At 2:42 McMenno said something about revealing information to watchers, no downside to it, blah blah. The timing here is interesting because this is immediately AFTER his slip was first noticed in the main thread.

At 2:53 he posts saying essentially "uh oh, I slipped, Space Cowboy please help divert the wagon"

Immediately after, 2:53 time stamp, he says "wrong private topic"

Like I said in my last post, it all seems pretty absurd, nobody slips like that twice in a row. I can't see the town incentive behind such a gambit, so my take is that McMenno is trying to cover the first slip with a second fake slip, trying to make it look like the first one was intentional after the fact. If McMenno flips scum, that would strongly change my opinion of Space Cowboy, because I don't see any scenario where scum!McMenno was actually slip twice and out his scum buddy.

OTOH, if McMenno is town, he has a lot of explaining to do.

[karnos]

Okay prison = no flip, good point. I guess we can't immediately capitalize on the information gain after a lynch.

So McMenno, do you have any intention of explaining your strategy, or are you fine being read as scum?

[karnos]

I like vedith more with the old avatar.

[karnos]

I'm a little disappoint that wasn't a vig kill, at least then we would have a useful flip.

VOTE: McMenno

Same reasons.

[karnos]

I have no idea what is going on. My role card doesn't say anything about being scum, nor am I a miller.

I can only speculate that there is a framer, which makes me extremely suspicious of Jaereed's choice to investigate me rather than more obvious scum.

[karnos]

VOTE: JaeReed

Jaereed is scum, and one of the other scum is a framer, it's the only possible explanation.

[karnos]

Please don't vote rashly, keep in mind two facts:

1- If this is a setup, as I assure you it is, scum will be absolutely fine with voting me, so the wagon will grow very fast.

2- A frame like this might be unlikely in a normal game, but I am not going to flip when I am lynched thanks to the prison mechanics, so the accuser could well get away with lynching a town player without looking too scummy.

Question for the away team: did JaeReed independently pick me to be copped, or was it a group decision?

[karnos]

VOTE: Jaereed

Two distinct things you gotta know about varsoon games.
Varsoon makes sme weird mechanics, and if this is anything like bloodborne, the original party leader is scum. ALWAYS!

That means jaereed must be lynched because of game mechanics, ALWAYS

No ifs ands or butts.

MOD META THIS GAME TO DEATH!!!


FOR BLOOBORNE!

~Fire

[also never moving my vote. This must go]

This sounded like madness to me on day 1, but I am starting to believe.

[karnos]

Is it a coincidence that Grovyle is dead?

Night action kills would have been sent by scum before my supposed guilt was announced, so it's not like scum!karnos could have chosen to kill Grovyle after realize JaeReed's cop on me.

[karnos]

Of note the Great and Powerful Trixie received a gun

. The Great and Powerful Trixie needs time to read the responses today to see what the Great and Powerful Trixie should do. Please do not quick hammer until The Great and Powerful Trixie is ready.

If that means what I think it means, I have a proposal. Actually, even if it doesn't mean what I think it means, the idea stands.

Please don't lynch me today. Vig kill me, however you can. I get why you all want to lynch me, the idea of a framer is pretty unlikely, but it's the only thing that makes sense given all I know.

However, I am sure town is on the road to doom if you merely send me to prison and fail to see a flip which would absolutely prove that a framer or similar mechanic exists. If I am going down, so be it, but let my death serve a purpose and expose the scum JaeReed (assuming they alone decided to cop me, nobody answered my question).

Please, kill me so you can see me flip green. If you send me to prison and we are handing the game over to scum.

[karnos]

If we do choose to go with the koggz jailbreak plan
we can also do it without the jailbreaker having to claim
by simply having everyone agree to the plan we can assume that if town can break koggz out it will happen
this way wont be roleblocked etc
and if no town has jailbreak or if jailbreaker for some reason chooses not to use ability then koggz will exit jail naturally

FYI, I can read prison chat. This could be useful if you are planning to do something with the prison, but at this point I'm all setup to be quick-lynched by scum so I'm afraid my talent won't be of any value in the near future.

[karnos]

The Great and Powerful Trixie finds your attempts at comedy hilarious and would hammer now if not for wanting to continue to scumhunt first. The Great and Powerful Trixie looks forward to seeing humor as a power on your role card.

Are you JaeReed's scum partner?

[karnos]

For instance, space cowboy just said he is expecting me to join them in chat in the near future. McMenno seems to have come around to the idea that he made an error and Space Cowboy is probably town, which sucks.

Now you want to send a 3rd town to prison immediately after day-start, blah this game is going to hell fast.

[karnos]

The Great and Powerful Trixie finds your attempts at comedy hilarious and would hammer now if not for wanting to continue to scumhunt first. The Great and Powerful Trixie looks forward to seeing humor as a power on your role card.

Are you JaeReed's scum partner?

The Great and Powerful Trixie sneezed Sprite through the Great and Powerful Trixie's nose at this suggestion.

Let's assume for case and point that Karnos was town.
Karnos would claim.
Karnos would give reads.

Karnos did none of those things so Karnos bleeds.

The Great and Powerful Trixie has the power of rhyme. Conf scum get lynched by the Great and Powerful Trixie every time.

My questions are being ignored, can't give accurate reads when everyone just sheepishly votes me.

If JaeReed decided independently to cop me, then JaeReed is scum. Period. I don't believe in a coincidence of that magnitude.

If someone else in the mission chat or whatever pushed the idea, perhaps they are scum. Since I am being ignored, I have no idea.

I'll happily claim, but it's 1 AM here and I'm only posting now because weekends are usually a poor time for me to play and I wanted to get a few words in before going to bed.

I am the accuser. I'm a bounty hunter, setting a bounty on someone = accusing them

. I accused wordz, to be perfectly honest I was trusting your read on him. I didn't think you were likely scum at the end of day 1, and your other scum reads being me & space cowboy were not valid choices, and between koggz and wordz I thought koggz had a fair chance to be town. There you have it.

There are other abilities, such as viewing the various private chats (not scum chat, sadly), which could be used during the day if you guys would just slow down and avoid quick lynching me.

[karnos]

What was Space Cowboy's reaction to being sent to prison? Can you sum up how that went down with Menno going in soon after?

I can go into detail in time, but I'm about to fall asleep and a simple copy/paste would be breaking the rules, so you will just have to be patient for a detailed description.

Very brief summary:
Basically space cowboy said he is fine with the situation, maybe he was hinting that he had an ability to break out, and then he said something to the effect of it being worthwhile as long as it means that scum mcmenno is being lynched. They go back and forth calling each other scum when mcmeno enters. Lots of posts but not much real content. In the end, it sounds like they have come around to town reading each other as of the last few posts tonight.

[karnos]

Karnos, I didn't decide alone. Grovyle was against the check, Drixx was in the run (he infiltrated) but I don't remember him stating an opinion on who to check. I hashed it out with The Great and Powerful Trixie. It was between you or Worldzmine. It was set on a timer for 1 minute before night end in case you were town and scum had you targeted for a kill in order to make the kill attempt fail.

Okay, that is useful. We know grovyle and drixx were town. Either you or mathblade are scum. Thinking about it, it doesn't matter who suggested my name, it would have been obvious to frame the cop target regardless of who it was.

[karnos]

1) Scum could do something to fuck with my kill. They could make it do weird bad awful things. Lynching scum is a sure thing and Karnos would flip anyway.

Why is it you think it's likely that scum could do something with your kill, but you don't think it's even worth talking about the idea that scum could have a framer or maybe some sort of target-swap role or something else silly when it came to the investigation?

Why would I flip if lynched? Wouldn't I go to prison exactly like the last lynch, and not flip? Hell, if you can show me why I will immediately flip upon lynch, I'll vote myself right now just to see the scum get burned on the implications. But if you are just trying to imply that I will *eventually* flip, several game days from now, then that is exactly what I'd expect from scum.

(responding to a comment in prison thread)
McMenno: I'm not going to self-hammer, because I would much rather get flipped so my alignment is revealed.

At the least then, the town among {MathBlade:JaeReed} will know the other is scum.

I'm going to make a more extensive post tomorrow, don't have a lot of free time today.

[karnos]

Also, in the interest of transparency, the bounty on WorldzMine is indeed a real bounty.

There is a reward, if he is lynched, for the fifth player on the wagon to vote for him. Doublevoting the following day or 1X bulletproof. So there is another reason to vig kill me, if you must, so that you can actually lynch WorldzMine later and collect the bounty. As far as I read my role, it doesn't matter if I am already dead, the reward should still occur.

I'll have moe time to post tomorrow, and I can go over more details of my role and various happenings in prison chat, if there is interest.

[karnos]

Pretty sure if we are vigging Karnos there is no "moving on" we gotta lynch a different scum.

You can't just shoot me now? I was hoping after my flip, town could lynch either you or jaereed.

I was reading it as you had a dayvig ability, if night only that is a shame.

[karnos]

So, a more detailed paraphrasing of prison chat.

Space Cowboy was initially okay with being sent to prison, because he was apparently thinking scum!McMeeno would be lynched shortly. He asked if he could use some messaging power while in prison, mod said only powers that specifically say they can be used in prison can be used, so no. Space Cowboy posts gloatingly about McMeeno being hammered, and shortly later McMeeno joins the PT.

McMeeno links a video to elvis' jailhouse rock as his entry to the prison, and makes a short post that he has no regrets. Space Cowboy posts calling him scum, asks McMeeno so really, are you scum? McMeeno defends himself saying scum wouldn't get a dayvig in this game, power is too strong, and if he was scum why would he take the dayvig shot and claim it, pointing out he could have just anonymously taken the shot.

Space Cowboy responds that since the "dayvig" just sends to prison, it's not a real permanent death, it might be balanced with scum having it, so that doesn't mean anything.

McMeeno sarcastically responds along the lines of yeah right, I just wanted to clear my scum buddies mathblade, daenarys & dragons, and jaereed.

Space Cowboy responds saying he suspected mathblade + D&D, but jaereed is "interesting". Then he posts that he is wondering if all kills send to prison, or if some directly kill dead.

McMeeno indicates that he isn't believing a single thing Space Cowboy is saying.

Some junk back & forth posting.

Day 2 starts.

McMeeno asks if it's multiball, due to the 2 kills at night presumably.

Something about optional posting, and Space Cowboys says I take it he isn't your faction. [I'm lost as to what the posting optional thing was referring to]

McMeeno says yeah not my faction, because i am town and he is scum ["he" being me, they are talking about the public cop results]

McMeeno reacts to 985 as if it's the most absurd thing to say ever.

A little later McMeeno posts "you are actually town?"

McMeeno talks about he could have dayvigged me today if he saved it, and how he is really unsure about koggz, and wants to speak with her if she ever comes into the prison PT.

McMeeno says Space Cowboy is probably town, lets talk about the gamestate.

Space Cowboy says no idea, it seems bad, 2 dead town 2 jailed town, but if he can get broken out he can "do things", [obviously softing a powerrole]

Space Cowboy then says waiting for karnos to join in chat.

McMeeno questions why I don't just selfhammer [DUH, I want to flip, sitting in prison isn't going to give town the info they need]

Space Cowboy freaks out about JaeReed's 1061 , like he really wanted to see me just get quick-lynched.

SC complains about letting the conftown live. Corrects himself next post, *confscum. If SC ever dies and flips red, I'm going to laugh about this slip.

McMeeno asks if SC thinks it is multiball

SC is pretty sure it is, he says lots of things point to it <- 9am this morning

no further posts at this time.

[karnos]

Personally, my take is SC could still be scum, McMeeno seems pretty towny. I don't disagree with his point regarding his ability- if he was scum, why the fuck would he claim the kill he was making? he could have just taken the kill and stayed anonymous. Even better question: why would scum dayvig someone who is already largely read as scum, and potentially easily miss-lynched? Wouldn't scum go for a kill on a more obvtown player?

[karnos]

Talk about your day1 posting. What made it so awesome that a scum framer picked you to frame on night1?

Why would any of it matter?

I'm sure scum had an inside man in the mission, unless there could be a scum role that allows them to read mission chat.

At some point they saw that I was the planned target for the public investigation power, so they sent in their night action to frame me. It's the most obvious course of action.

[karnos]

Why are you saying it was hard to achieve the cop result? Team size of 3 was the minimum possible, so it would seem to be the EASIEST mission, not the hardest. Also, MathBlade was apparently awarded a vig kill, and who knows what else might have been awarded to other players? Maybe the pub investigation was intended to be weak, because it was so easily to win it as an award and it could have been really strong if there was no scum among the mission team.

Second of all, I don't mind being killed. My flip will vindicate me and either jae or math will get lynched after, I'm okay with that trade, but I'm not going to willingly get sent to prison where I do not flip and my framer can get away.

[karnos]

Space Cowboy is now convinced I am scum because of my paraphrase of the prison PT, apparently revealing his soft PR tell was the last straw.

Does he even think about what he is posting? If I was scum I'd have already revealed that in the scum PT, there is no scum motivation to reveal that in the main thread. Sometimes town players say dumb things like that, but I think he is probably just scum.

[karnos]

Scum: Space Cowbow, one of {JaeReed, MathBlade}, and WorldzMine.

ABP, Koggz are townreads.

Most the rest are null or I just don't feel confident to leave them on my deathbed, I'd rather just share the sure things.

Please please please seriously consider the above reads after my flip. I'm sure the scum among MathBlade/JaeReed will squirm and try to escape a lynch by saying something like "I wouldn't have taken the vig kill if I knew he was town!" but the reality is the scum knows there is no choice.

Refusing to take the kill would look very very scummy, so they just have to go ahead and kill me and try to spin the town flip as something else when it happens.

[karnos]

So the question becomes what was so special about Karnos's posting it requires a day framer.

Holy shit Math you're right. Karnos investigate would have resolved before any night actions. I am fucking dumb.

I'm not following the logic.

The order of events:

1. Night begins. Actions sent.

2. Missions.

3. Mission results/rewards.

4. Mission reward result.

5. Night ends.

So you are saying that actions submit in step 1 can't possibly effect results revealed in step 4?

I submit, as evidence to the contrary:

ABR any specific reason you want to be with jaereed?

We are both widely townread and were on different successful missions last night, so we are able to be on the same mission tonight.

Btw, our mission was sabotaged by scum last night, they made the rolls more difficult, but we still managed to succeed.

UNVOTE:

Who is vigging who?

&

We were informed in the pt that scum sabotaged the run, making it harder.

Unless ABR is lying scum, that should put the nail in the coffin for this crazy theory that night scum actions couldn't possibly effect the mission reward results. We already know that night scum actions sabotaged the mission itself, which occurred BEFORE the reward results.

[karnos]

Okay, that is useful. We know grovyle and drixx were town. Either you or mathblade are scum. Thinking about it, it doesn't matter who suggested my name, it would have been obvious to frame the cop target regardless of who it was.

This makes no sense
If its a Framer that messed with you like you've been pushing, then "math or Jae must be scum" doesn't fit at all
You're just scum flailing

How do you not get what I am saying?

Scum framed me BECAUSE I was going to be copped. If scum knew I was going to be copped, someone in the mission told them. of the 4 players in the mission, 2 died and flipped town. QED one of the remaining two players, Jaereed or MathBlade, are scum. Possibly both.

Unless you honestly believe scum would have some sort of spy ability to view the mission PT without being on the mission, the only other possibility is a scum JaeReed or a scum MathBlade.

Also, in the interest of transparency, the bounty on WorldzMine is indeed a real bounty.

There is a reward, if he is lynched, for the fifth player on the wagon to vote for him. Doublevoting the following day or 1X bulletproof. So there is another reason to vig kill me, if you must, so that you can actually lynch WorldzMine later and collect the bounty. As far as I read my role, it doesn't matter if I am already dead, the reward should still occur.

I'll have moe time to post tomorrow, and I can go over more details of my role and various happenings in prison chat, if there is interest.

This looks like scum trying to create interest in a last ditch mislynch
Which is lol

Does it? So do you think MathBlade is probably scum then? I picked Worldz based on MathBlade's scum read on him, and PoE knowing his other scum reads are town, except Koggz, but I have a strong feeling koggz is town, so defaulted to worldz.

Read the day opening. There was an accusation on wordz written out by the mod. Nobody has counterclaimed my accuser role. Does it make sense for you that a bounty hunter would be able to set a bounty on someone (accusation) and there wouldn't be any actual bounty to collect (the reward)?

I don't really care if worldz is lynched or not, but if he is lynched I want the bounty going to town, rather than scum. I want to lynch MathBlade or Jaereed today, and hopefully I'll get it after I am vigged and flip town.

I'm fine with vigging karnos. He can get out of jail if we lynch him.

The only problem I have with this is possible night bullshit like redirectors and scum docs being possible.

-dragons

This is unbelievable. The idea of a false guilty is something you call BS on, when it's a well known mechanic used in games and listed in the wiki, but when it comes to being killed outright you don't trust the idea because you think I'm going to magically reflect the kill onto someone else?

Do you really think my role is an accuser, + bulletproof ninja, + kill redirector, +read prison/astral/matrix, +scum nightkiller, +scum chat? Doesn't that seem like a bit much?

[karnos]

That's not evidence. We knew that scum could affect the rolls on a mission, and I highly doubt that's a night action thing.

Okay, you are turning this into an argument of semantics. Obviously scum had to submit some communication to sabotage the mission, and the mission occured at night. Thus it was a night action, in my words. In the same way, my theory is that scum shared the info that I was going to be copped in scum PT, and some scum framer framed me. Call it a day action if you want, it occurred at night and had effects at night so I would call it a night action.

We didn't narrow things down definitively until quite late in the night in any case, there were only a few hours left, then I put you on a timer to be copped, with the choices being between Worldz and you. I forgot that it would have resolved before any night actions did. Like, what you are arguing is literally that me or Math are scum. But Math didn't know for sure that I would follow through on their preference or just flip a coin or what. It was very heavily implied that I wanted to help my townreads get their reads sorted, but Worldz was also stated as a decent check, and with grovyle townreading you I could very easily have gone for Worldz instead.

So you are a scum framer, you can frame anyone you want, and your scum buddy is telling you there is a good chance karnos is going to be copped. Please explain how you would logically choose to frame anyone else other than karnos in that situation.

If you have knowledge that player X is going to be investigated, you would absolutely frame that player if you are trying to win, no question.

[karnos]

SC was vigged, why did he go to jail as a result instead of flipping? This won't also happen with a karnos vig? What am I missing/not understanding here?

MathBlade said they had a GUN. A gun kills, it doesn't send to jail, so that is the assumption I am working from.

Maybe MathBlade can clarify on how exactly the ability is worded.

[karnos]

Basically my thought process is: I can confirm what karnos is saying about the prison chat, I can check in with Menno and SC on what their opinions/reads are and try to get my own read on them based on what's in prison chat, and I can get their opinion on who to break out if town ends up with that option.

That would require me breaking out during the night phase so scum doesn't just nightkill me to deny information (probably after 24 hours of nightstart), and koggz setting up a PT between me and someone Koggz thinks is town while at the same time I send a night message to someone I think is town. My thoughts on this are: If scum have a roleblocker or something to stop me from sending the night message, they can't also stop koggz setting up the PT, so there'll be a backup if I die. I'll tell both people a secret code to confirm them. (Also any town protective role could be on me if they so desire, scum might have strongman or more importantly, watcher, so use your own judgement or a coin flip or something if you wish)

So: do we lynch me and hold off on karnos either vig or lynch, or lynch karnos, or lynch someone else and vig karnos?

Quick addition with that plan btw: both Cerb and fb were hesitant about lynching a townread on purpose. I think this plan is fine though? As it is I'm useful to scum kept alive because we're not getting flips in part because of me. Once I'm dead or used my escape then I'm useless to them, and a threat since I have seen inside the prison chat.

By my knowledge, there is a 50% chance you are scum, so that makes me nervous about accepting this plan at face value. Who is to say you will be honest about what was said in prison chat?

Is this some last ditch effort to stop me from getting vigged and flipping town, revealing the investigation for the sham it is?

@MathBlade

, you can take the shot. I don't want scum getting away like this.

[karnos]

...Talk about day one and night one.
The cop check was submitted during the missions part. JaeReed set a trigger on it for one minute before night.

So the question becomes what was so special about Karnos's posting it requires a day framer. And if they had it why would they not use is on a universal town read?

For a day framer to work they'd have to have eyes in the mission thread. Which in that case scum would be flipping out about the super secret plan of awesome. Since they aren't Karnos is scum no framer:

Does the above make sense to anyone else?

Mod Post 976 "Night 1 started at 12:50 AM Pacific Time (USA) on August 23, 2016."

Mod Post 978 "Fri Aug 26, 2016 3:59 am JaeReed picked between the mission rewards for this mission."

There it is, clear as day written in stone: night started 3 days before JaeReed picked the reward to publicly cop me. When MathBlade says Jaereed used it a minute before night, that is absolutely impossible , because it wasn't even awarded to JaeReed until 3 RL days into the night phase.

I'm wondering if we are seeing a scum slip here, maybe scum chat had a different deadline for nightkill and other actions and MathBlade is mixing up that deadline with the actual real beginning of night.

[karnos]

"I put you on a timer to be copped."

Not a scumslip if they specifically set the trigger for a minute before night. And both Mathblade and Jaereed said this, so if one scumslipped about deadlines then the other did too. Also it makes no sense for the scum deadline to be different.

-Daenerys

So you think it's possible that Jaereed received the reward for successful mission before the mission was started?

I just don't understand how that makes sense to you, these time travel paradoxes don't actually work in real life.

[karnos]

They mean before night ends.

As in, "Hey mod- I will do this unless you hear form me before then." type of thing.

BS, that is what I have been assuming the whole time, but they are like "no karnos that doesn't make sense because we did it BEFORE night started".

What you are saying here is exactly what I'd expect.

This is how it goes down:

You are a scum in the mission chat.

There is a standing request "cop karnos unless you hear otherwise by end of night".

You have a scum partner who is asking "hey man, who should I frame tonight?"

Do you tell him to frame karnos, or do you inexplicably give him someone else to frame? Sure, there is a small possibility that the cop target wil lchange at the last second in the mission, but you can't play around that. You frame the guy who is going to be investigated by default, it's just the correct play 100% of the time.

[karnos]

So: do we lynch me and hold off on karnos either vig or lynch, or lynch karnos, or lynch someone else and vig karnos?

I'd rather a Karnos lynch, but not if it won't flip him.

The whole vig thing is kind of dumb because night actions are subject to shenanigans.

Is it even a night action vig?

McMeeno's was a day vig.

[karnos]

Spoiler: vig discussion

SC was vigged, why did he go to jail as a result instead of flipping? This won't also happen with a karnos vig? What am I missing/not understanding here?

MathBlade said they had a GUN. A gun kills, it doesn't send to jail, so that is the assumption I am working from.

Maybe MathBlade can clarify on how exactly the ability is worded.

I know what a vig normally is supposed to do, but we've already had some claim that they vigged someone and that someone went to jail but didn't die.

oh, you won't have to worry about space cowboy anymore... :^)

and people don't flip when we lynch them

yes and I've sent my buddy space cowboy to prison to get loads of towncred

look at how well it's working /s

Yeah, and he never said it was a "gun", bleh, it all depends on the wording. Does the ability say KILL, or does it say send to prison? It should be real clear, only MathBlade knows at this point.

[karnos]

For a day framer to work they'd have to have eyes in the mission thread.

Which in that case scum would be flipping out about the super secret plan of awesome.

Since they aren't Karnos is scum no framer:

PeregrineV made me re-read this, and something else stands out.

Note the bolded above. WTF does that mean? Is MathBlade trying to claim that if scum saw the mission thread, they would be slipping in the main thread?

Is that really the argument? Scum would be throwing the game if they saw the mission thread, so that proves they didn't see it? Really?

If i'm reading it wrong, what the hell does MathBlade mean? It just doesn't make sense to me.

[karnos]

It can't be a day action because it wasn't day anymore.
It can't be a night action because it was before night actions were due.

This again sounds like a scum slip. I didn't get any special PM about when night actions were due, did anyone else? I'm thinking maybe scum PT had a note about actions being due by time X, and that is what MathBlade is referring to. Am I crazy here, did anyone who isn't scum get a note to send action by X or you miss out?

The only "deadline" I ever saw was the deadline for night, which was the same as everyone:

Night 1 started at 12:50 AM Pacific Time (USA) on August 23, 2016. The deadline is 12:50 AM August 26, 2016.

And then the public cop occurred at 4AM, 3 hours later.

Spoiler: public cop post

Post #978 (ISO) » Fri Aug 26, 2016 3:59 am

JaeReed picked between the mission rewards for this mission.

JaeReed could give control of Mr. Johnson to a particular player. That player may not be sent on any particular mission and cannot be a party leader or lieutenant in any way.

OR

JaeReed may publicly cop a player. This option may ONLY be selected once per game. This player that is publicly copped cannot be killed that night.


They picked to publically cop a player.

I just sent my action (the bounty on worldz) after night began and didn't think anything else of it. It was certainly long before the public investigate occurred. NAR implies that an action that can modify the result of another action will work first. A frame would absolutely modify the result of an investigation, and would resolve first.

[karnos]

Math is probs town. I wouldn't be surprised if karnos was distancing space cowboy. Vedith could be scum

Er. Okay. Please don't think about this too hard, because when I actually flip town and your brain explodes I don't want you to be thinking that Space Cowboy might be town. He isn't.

[karnos]

Freaking wall, but I feel that this stuff needs to be discussed.

This would be more believable if you were making half an effort to sort either of us, to be honest. All you're doing is saying one of us is confscum over and over again. I can't imagine any town sitting there with his thumbs up his ass like this the whole time instead of going through the content and saying "ok I think they're both scum together for x reasons" or "ok I think this person is more scummy/towny for x reasons". You are looking like you're just trying to buy yourself time.

I'm not expecting town to lynch you or MathBlade while I am alive. I'm just laying the groundwork to make sure the scum among you gets burnt when I do flip and the green alignment is revealed.

Why would you trying to push people to lynch Worldz instead of you make

MathBlade

scum? You think Math needs to have perfect reads to be town? For all we know you chose him because you thought he was mislynchable if he's town. Like, this is stupid. D&D didn't bring into question the validity of your claim, what was brought into question was your motivation for trying to push the Worldz lynch because of your bounty on them.

Are you having trouble with the timeline? Remember, I'm not scum, I didn't have pre-knowledge that I was going to be framed and copped before night ended, so I had to submit my night action without knowing what I know now. At the time, Worldz was looking pretty scummy so I put the bounty on him.

False guilties are as common as redirectors & bulletproof.

At least someone admits that.

Scum couldn't have shared the info that you were going to be copped in order to have you framed because it was only decided like 3 hours before daystart, and you were then set on a timer to be copped one minute before daystart. They would have had to directly take control of a buddies action, or have the framer be a factional action. It would also have to be an action that happened instantly when submitted (hence the use of "day action" but yes it happened at night if it happened at all).

So because it was a 3 hour window, it couldn't have happened? You ever see scum quick-lynch in LYLO to win? I think you are insulting the scum in this game if you think they can't even coordinate that well.

Except Math did not know for sure I was going to target you, and it was only worked out with not that much time left on the clock. Considering it was around like midnight for most people your argument then becomes

the framer could only be me or Math

. I don't disagree that if there was scum on the mission they would choose to frame you because it appeared that I was leaning that way, but the timing makes it extremely specific and less and less likely to me the more I think about it.

Why is this such a difficult concept? If you have a framer power, and you don't use it, NOTHING HAPPENS. If you frame the wrong guy, NOTHING HAPPENS. If you know karnos is going to get copped, you frame him, it's just what you do. Worst case scenario: NOTHING HAPPENS. It's not like framing me was some insane gambit that loses them the game if I wasn't investigated. It's just plain a smart and correct move that had a good chance to pay dividends.

It's like arguing that maybe scum won't use a night-kill ability, because if they do use it they

might

not hit a power-role. It's a BS argument, scum will use every power they have as often as possible in 90% of the cases. Note: if it wasn't a 1-shot framer, I'd expect scum to frame someone every night. Cops should be careful with the results they get this game.

I know I'm town. I'm not going to be talked into a fucking conspiracy theory with regards to my read on Math. They're most likely just town like I read them as. Which means either someone from the scum team could read the mission PT and was around 3 hours before, while

also having a framing ability

or you're just confscum like the cop result returned.

Yeah, and I know I am town. I know either you or Math are scum. I don't expect to talk you into anything right now, but when I do flip and you see the truth maybe then you will think about reversing your read on MathBlade.

I'd be more interested in Menno's wording for how he sent someone to jail considering that was played off as a dayvig. But you haven't thought of that at all. You're not thinking about the game, really. You're thinking about how to get mislynches off on myself/math.

WTF, McMeeno is in prison. I am the only one who could get the wording from him, but then you would havbe to trust me to accept it. OTOH MathBlade is right here in this thread, your bestie town-confirmed buddy, why is so freaking hard to ask him how his vig kill works?

[karnos]

Seriously karnos you are so obviously scum. People can check what you refer to; you are aware, right?

-Scout

Yes and? I've seen that it dozens of games, it doesn't mean anything special. Mod needed more time to resolve issues and didn't want to unlock the thread and have dead players talking, what the hell does that prove?

[karnos]

Gee conf!scum giving me permission to kill them. *rolls eyes* I would do it with or without your blessing anyway. And why the hell would you after screaming I or JaeReed are scum then go "you can take the shot" to me. This implies you know I am town and your scumread of me is a load of shit.

It's pretty simple. You kill me, I flip green you just confirmed that you or Jae are scum (or the crazy scenario where both of you are). You refuse to kill me and insist I got to prison without flipping, you are admitting to being scum because you know killing me will reveal. It might be a harder sell, but I have if that occurs town would eventually lynch you. If you are scum you basically MUST shoot me, even though you won't like the results, but I see you keep putting it off and putting it off.

And yes, I have to give you permission, otherwise you might weasel out by claiming you didn't want to kill me before I gave out more information from the prison chat or something.

[karnos]

Night continues for 1 more minute.

Deadline was 3 hours prior.

Look, I see that some people are confused (or are scum faking confusion), so let me explain it.

Deadline occurs, all actions must be submit by that time or they are invalid. Mod reads through all the PMs and chat based actions, puts them in a spreadsheet or paper, and figures out what effects what. Then the mod actually has to apply the effects in game. ALL THIS TAKES TIME. You can't just have deadline at 4:00 and re-open the thread for day at 4:01.

The whole "Night continues for 1 more minute. " is a red herring, because night continuing had nothing to do with the deadline to submit actions, the deadline was several hours prior.

[karnos]

Look at my posts near the end of D1. I had *no clue* what was going on and was answering interesting post in real time. My thoughts continually changed as I got more caught up and the progression of my thoughts were plainly laid out. If I was scum I wouldn't of did that because I would of obviously caught up with all the game changing things that happened in the scum thread before posting.

It shows clearly that I'm uniformed and that points to one alignment and one alignment only--

town

.

When you make a "town slip" and then you point it out yourself, it doesn't actually make you look towny.

[karnos]

Omfg you were specifically copped BEFORE NIGHT ACTIONS RESOLVE. We have been over this many times already.

And stop trying to push shit as slips when they're not. The deadline for night actions is and always has been the deadline for night and that is very clearly what mathblade was talking about.

Are we just supposed to take your word for it? Because from my perspective, the cop action occurred after deadline, in the same time frame as all other night actions.

[karnos]

Omfg you were specifically copped BEFORE NIGHT ACTIONS RESOLVE. We have been over this many times already.

And stop trying to push shit as slips when they're not.

The deadline for night actions is and always has been the deadline for night and that is very clearly what mathblade was talking about.

Except it's provably not in this game. Night deadline was aprox 12:30AM, night actually ended aprox 4:00AM.

You are accusing me of being wrong when I am provably right, while the things you are claiming can't be confirmed by anyone but you.

[karnos]

Actually, WTF. Not just this game: every single game on these forums: deadline and the end time for night ARE NOT THE SAME.

Problem being I don't know which one is scum between Math and Jae, but Jae is just not making any sense at all right now so consider this is a strong lean on them.

[karnos]

Omfg you were specifically copped BEFORE NIGHT ACTIONS RESOLVE. We have been over this many times already.

And stop trying to push shit as slips when they're not. The deadline for night actions is and always has been the deadline for night and that is very clearly what mathblade was talking about.

Are we just supposed to take your word for it? Because from my perspective, the cop action occurred after deadline, in the same time frame as all other night actions.

No, it is clear going off the times of the public cop result compared to the flips.

How so? Because it's shown first in a separate post? It seems like you are making assumptions on something that isn't clearly spelled out. Those assumptions might be reasonable in the absence of contrary evidence, but I have a role card that says you messed up with your assumptions somewhere.

No, that is due to your time zone for the time stamps. The time listed in the post is the mod's timezone...

Even if I look at the page on another browser, in which I am not logged onto the forums at all, I still see the deadline being 2+ hours prior to the public cop result post.

[karnos]

We still need the escape from me to reach halfway to our condition for flips.

That is your opinion. That isn't required to win the game, nor is it 100% beneficial (for example, if we lynch a legit strong town power role, we might regret it if we can't break them back out of prison later because someone decided to waste a prison break ability). But really that is hardly relevant to me, on the level of things that are important it's pretty low down the list compared to making sure you or MathBlade get lynched after me, so I didn't think it was worth talking about.

[karnos]

Because of the way I know the public cop works and it was confirmed in the mission PT so Math knows it works that way too. Whenever I submitted the action was when it took place any time BEFORE night end. I submitted it ONE MINUTE BEFORE NIGHT END so that scum could not change their kill if for some reason they decided to go for you and you were town. Since it made you unkillable last night too.

Even if I look at the page on another browser, in which I am not logged onto the forums at all, I still see the deadline being 2+ hours prior to the public cop result post.

It's not my time zone.


"so that scum could not change their kill if for some reason they decided to go for you and you were town"

WTF? Why would scum not want to kill a confirmed town? It's like you are trying to make up a reason for doing something a certain way and coming up with something that sounds incredibly fake.

[karnos]

You're not reading. THE MOD'S TIME ZONE IS DIFFERENT TO THE FORUM'S TIME ZONE. I SPECIFIED MOD'S TIME ZONE.

You were unkillable when you were publically copped... "This player that is publicly copped cannot be killed that night." So yes, scum would absolutely want to change their kill if they were targeting you because they would be denied the kill. That's if you were town, which you're not.

The post from the mod, 987 shows it was 1 minute before the deadline. The PTs were locked even though the flips didn't come later because it was late and the mod needed sleep before going through NAR.

This is really pissing me off. I'm not sure if you are legitimately mistaken, or just fucking trolling me, but (for the last time) I checked once again. This time, I changed my time zone to pacific time, MATCHING THE MOD TIME ZONE.

976 STILL shows deadline as 12:50AM

978 with your cop reward, STILL occurs after that, at 12:59AM

You are still wrong, and your constant failure to understand this most basic aspect of time makes me really wonder why anyone should believe you about the specifics behind your public cop ability, you could certainly be describing it wrong as well, even if you aren't scum intentionally misleading us.

I'm not going to waste any further time on this particular line of discussion. I know how time works, apparently you don't. The time-stamps on the posts trumps your argument, and you aren't going to be able to change them no matter how hard you try.

[karnos]

I'll be resolving all night actions after I get some sleep.

(my italics underlined)

@karnos - do you think SM posted this when he'd actually resolved a scum night-frame? That's impossible to me.

Are you serious? So your argument is that there couldn't have been a frame, because if there was a frame the mod would have written something else.

What exactly did you expect to see the mod write?

"I'll be resolving all night actions other than the frame on karnos by JaeReed after I get some sleep."

Even something like "I'll resolve all night actions that did not modify the prior action after I get some sleep" would be far too telling.

Obviously not. This is a game without perfect information. There is *no* correct way to write a line that is 100% correct without inadvertently telling the players that something fishy has occurred, the correct move as mod is to give nothing away.

[karnos]

I can't believe I have been so dumb. Re-reading the prison thread, I see something I missed. In prison, you can choose to die and flip at will. This was a small note in the introductory post by the mod, when I was reviewing the prison thread previously I was pretty much ignoring mod posts as irrelevant, oops.

Knowing that, I'm fine with getting lynched, I'll just choose to die and flip once it occurs. It'll be worth it to see that scum JaeReed die. And please town, don't be dumb, if I am wrong on JaeReed it just means MathBlade is 100% scum, lynch them both after my green flip.

VOTE: karnos

[karnos]

You're assuming though that Karnos didn't know what was coming. If he did that was probably WiFoM to make that exact argument.

Karnos and I did the same in 1800. Why would a scum Neopolitan townfirm someone? It doesn't make sense. The answer is it does if Karnos knew what was coming. I think because of that Karnos bountying Worldz is NAI.

If this was the same as 1800, that makes JaeReed and/or you scum, not Worldz. I agree worldz is a bit scummy, but I know 100% that there is a scum between you and Jae.

[karnos]

You're not reading. THE MOD'S TIME ZONE IS DIFFERENT TO THE FORUM'S TIME ZONE. I SPECIFIED MOD'S TIME ZONE.

You were unkillable when you were publically copped... "This player that is publicly copped cannot be killed that night." So yes, scum would absolutely want to change their kill if they were targeting you because they would be denied the kill. That's if you were town, which you're not.

The post from the mod, 987 shows it was 1 minute before the deadline. The PTs were locked even though the flips didn't come later because it was late and the mod needed sleep before going through NAR.

This is really pissing me off. I'm not sure if you are legitimately mistaken, or just fucking trolling me, but (for the last time) I checked once again. This time, I changed my time zone to pacific time, MATCHING THE MOD TIME ZONE.

976 STILL shows deadline as 12:50AM

978 with your cop reward, STILL occurs after that, at 12:59AM

You are still wrong, and your constant failure to understand this most basic aspect of time makes me really wonder why anyone should believe you about the specifics behind your public cop ability, you could certainly be describing it wrong as well, even if you aren't scum intentionally misleading us.

I'm not going to waste any further time on this particular line of discussion. I know how time works, apparently you don't. The time-stamps on the posts trumps your argument, and you aren't going to be able to change them no matter how hard you try.

Mod gets time to type.
Moving on.

I agree, but then this just seems out of crazyland:

You're not reading. THE MOD'S TIME ZONE IS DIFFERENT TO THE FORUM'S TIME ZONE. I SPECIFIED MOD'S TIME ZONE.

I'm just trying to understand JaeReed's logic. There is no time zone where the night deadline is after the cop result, none, zero. Yes, the mod needs time to type, thank you for regurgitating my own thoughts to me, but why didn't point this out when JaeReed was spouting BS about timezones?

[karnos]

OMFG STOP ARGUING WITH ME ABOUT WHEN I SET THE FUCKING TIMER BECAUSE I KNOW WHEN I SET IT YOU FUCK.

IT.WAS.SET.FOR.ONE.MINUTE.BEFORE.NIGHT.ENDS.

THE END.

FUCK YOU.

Night end and DEADLINE are two different things. Not going to let you get out this now by trying to move the goalposts.

Night ends when the mod opens up the thread for day. Deadline is when no more night actions are accepted.

Submitting your action 1 minute before deadline means jack, it can still be modified by any other night action. Submitting your action 1 minute before night ends means you submit it after the post in which it was revealed, sorry not going to let you get away with that. Either way it means nothing.

[karnos]

I apologize for this. I did not mean to be an ass and I feel like this crossed a line. I'm going to bed; obviously I need to.

Don't worry about it, get your sleep... but if you are still reading, please go ahead and vote me. I want to get things moving and by prison suicide I can flip and see you burn

[karnos]

Sometimes you talk to Jaereed and Mathblade like they are town.. But then turn around and call them scum. If you are so convinced that Jaereed is scum, then why wouldn't you trust Mathblade's vig shot to flip you and push for a lynch on scum instead of someone you (supposedly) know is town?

I'm having a hard time with your posts, I just don't get your thought process, so i'm going to break this down line-by-line.

>Sometimes you talk to Jaereed and Mathblade like they are town.. But then turn around and call them scum.

It happens when I know for a fact one is scum, but not which one. But I always talk to players the same way, to catch scum you treat them as town and catch them when they screw up. You don't catch scum by treating them as scum, that just gives them the feedback they need to act more townie.

>If you are so convinced that Jaereed is scum,

I'm not 100% convinced, but irrelevant.

>then why wouldn't you trust Mathblade's vig shot to flip you and push for a lynch on scum instead of someone you (supposedly) know is town?

Because I want town to win. I'm going to be lynch-bait either way. Taking a crazy hypothetical, if I convince town to vote and lynch Jaereed, then what? Jae doesn't flip in prison, so you still don't have a reason to believe me. Tomorrow MathBlade pushes to lynch me again and it happens, and town is possibly in LYLO, especially if it's multi-ball and we suffer 2 more deaths overnight.

But if you lynch me, I can suicide and the truth is known. As long as MathBlade and JaeReed get sent to prison after me, town has a fair shot.

[karnos]

VOTE: mathblade

A lynch I can get behind. I'm a bit torn because it could be scum!JaeReed instead, but lets see where this goes.

A thought that came to mind: did anyone else observe mathblade being awarded this "gun"? Wouldn't it be funny if the whole thing was a big gambit, based on mathblade being scum, thinking they can just use their faction night kill to kill whoever and claim using the "gun"?

[karnos]

You have given no reason for Math being scum. One of you/klingon is town and I don't know which one, but there is no case on math because no case can be made on math. Math is town. End of.

What is frustrating is this could be read either way. 1- you are scum, and you know Mathblade is town and don't want them lynched because then PoE will implicate you after I flip town. 2- you are town, and you have the wool pulled over your eyes because you believe I'm lying and MathBlade couldn't possibly be scum to frame me.

@JaeReed: would you lynch MathBlade tomorrow after I flip as town?

[karnos]

Sorry, not much computer time this weekend.

A thought that came to mind: did anyone else observe mathblade being awarded this "gun"? Wouldn't it be funny if the whole thing was a big gambit, based on mathblade being scum, thinking they can just use their faction night kill to kill whoever and claim using the "gun"?

1 kill vs 2 kills.

And? We don't know if it's multi-ball, or if there is a SK or what. If there are two kills overnight, we wouldn't know if one was mathblade's vig kill or if both were normal scum kills. I could see scum playing such a gambit to gain cred, especially if the scum knows his target is town anyway.

At a friend's birthday party. Push on me has no reasons. I can't explain what has no reasons. Worldzmine/Random/Klingon two of the three are scum with McMenno. I highly doubt McMenno is town based on Karnos's D1.

Will check again on Tuesday.

So I led the push against McMenno and that makes him scum because I bus, but my push on you proves you are town? Does that make sense to anyone?

I'm okay with worldz lynch, it's weird how picking him for bounty was like some obvious scum-tell from me but now that other people want to lynch him again he is back to being scum. Worldz could be scum if JaeReed is scum, or if MathBlade & Worldz are scum of different factions.

[karnos]

Now you seem to take any chance on a wagon thats not you, especially if that also takes the vig shot away that is supposed to eliminate you.

Actually no, I'm fine with being lynched now as I can suicide and flip in prison. That said, my reads will be useful, especially after said flip. I will absolutely be sharing my feelings on potential wagons today as far as who may or may not be scum.

JaeReed & Worldz could be scum.

MathBlade & you could be scum if Jae is town.

Not really seeing the case on peregrinev, and no real associations. Of course that is how some people play as scum, avoiding the limelight, so I'd give him a solid null.

Yume too is mostly lurking, another null.

ABR seems towny, especially given his push on Mathblade. I have a feeling real scum would be against lynching mathblade or jae regardless of which one is scum, because if the town between them is flipped the other is implicated as confirmed scum.

Daenerys & Dragons I dunno, might be scum but no sense of partners.

Klingoncelt & randomidget seem fairly townish to me, but this isn't a strong read.

[karnos]

Confession time:

I killed Drixx

Reasonably Rational

I didn't want to claim the kill immediately because I was afraid someone would stupidly quick hammer me, given the fake guilty, but as we are approaching deadline I feel this information must be shared. Obviously it was a terrible play given the flip, but I thought there was something very fake about his scum hunting in day 1. I was also limited to matrix participants- mcmenno, who was already in prison, or randommidget who I thought was a bit more likely to be town than RR. I always try to use my powers ASAP in case scum kills me at night, so I used my 1 shot matrix vig on night one to kill the most likely scum IMO.

I shot town, I know this makes me look even worse, but I had to share this because I don't want town going down the wrong path assuming it's multi-ball or that there is a serial killer. (Yes, I mentioned those possibilities in my posts earlier, simply to point out the contradiction of some players who assumed it was multi-ball when it was convenient for their argument)

Almost certainly there is only one scum team, they killed

grovyle

[karnos]

VOTE: worldz

We are nearing deadline and I think this is the best wagon that has a chance. If my count is correct, this is the 4th vote on worldz, 5th voter wins the bounty. If town is on the fence please at least vote in the 5th slot so the bounty reward doesn't go to scum.

[karnos]

please don't vote for worldz he's town. mathblade and karnos are scum

Your certainty here makes me wonder if I was wrong about you, perhaps you are scum with JaeReed.

Feel free to ignore my advice, but if worldz ends up getting lynched anyway it's going to suck for us if scum are awarded with the double-voter bounty.

[karnos]

Actually:

VOTE: Peregrine

please don't vote for worldz he's town. mathblade and karnos are scum

Whats your deal? Why are you voting peregrine instead of your scum reads?

This looks like a classic scum tactic of throwing shade on players while *not* voting them, so as to setup miss-lynches for the next few days to come.

If you think I am scum, vote me. I don't mind taking the hit, because I know upon my green flip the scum will be implicated. Instead it seems like you want to keep calling me scum while delaying my lynch does that make any sense? I could understand the logic of that if you are assuming MathBlade will kill me tonight, but you *also* assume MathBlade is scum, so how does that make any sense?

'Karnos is scum, but instead of lynching him lets let scum kill him overnight, because that makes sense!'

[karnos]

Whats your deal? Why are you voting peregrine instead of your scum reads?

math is shooting you tonight

So math & I are scum partners, and math is going to shoot me tonight? Does that really make sense in your mind?

[karnos]

One of Mathblade and koggz is a serial killer, and they are both scum trying to kill the other. Worldz is town. I think random and PV are scum.

Mathblade is a serial killer.

We can lynch PV today.

But Mathblade should be lynched tomorrow if she kills anyone but karnos.

Serial killer.

There were two kills last night. One of them was my matrix vig kill. There was no doctor save claim. There is only one scum team and no SK.

Do you really think I would lie about claiming a vig kill on a confirmed townie? Think what you want, when I flip you will see your thinking was wrong.

Blah. This is annoying. I know Jaereed or Mathblade is scum, but this weird steering by ABR makes me think it's Jae. If Math was my scum partner, do you really think he would kill me?

Mathblade are you 100% convinced karnos is scum yet? Will you 100% shoot karnos tonight or be lynched tomorrow?

This is such BS. The plan has always been that he kills me with his "gun", I don't know if it's a dayvig or night kill ability or what. When I die and flip green, you will know that someone between Jaereed and MathBlade is scum, but I am feeling very uneasy about how you are 100% sure it's Mathblade.

I'm fine with being lynched, when I flip it'll help sort Jae & MathBlade. What I am not fine with is this weird setup where you want to kill peregrine first, then me, then mathblade... and then if all of the above are town, then what? I think the mistake I made about reading you was that your push on mathblade was fake, you call them scum but you won't vote them, so your scum partner Jaereed isn't actually in danger of being implicated by PoE until the game is past LYLO anyway.

[karnos]

Hm. Sounds like I'm on the right track and karnos is panicking. Maybe they are actually on the same team and were attempting a hard bus strategy that backfired due to me not buying either one of their stories.

I agree, it sounds like from your perspective, MathBlade and I are definitely scum partners. The illogical thing is that you are refusing to vote for either of us, and instead insist on voting PV, while you fully expect one scum to kill the other scum.

Do you really believe the crap you are spewing?

Here are some more likely scenarios:

-MathBlade & I are scum, MathBlade says he will shoot me but he actually won't, and he will claim he did. I'll reveal I had bulletproof or some redirect or whatever.

-MathBlade is town, I am town, he will happily shoot me and I'll flip green and you will lynch Mathblade tomorrow and he will flip green, while JaeReed is actually the scum who framed me but now you are in LYLO.

-MathBlade is town, I am scum, he shoots me at night but I have a scum buddy protect me, you lynch MathBlade tomorrow because he didn't shoot me.

-MathBlade is scum, I am town, MathBlade shoots you instead of me at night, claims he shot me and some scum redirected, tomorrow I get lynched and flip town.

Are any of those positive outcomes in your opinion? Do you really honestly think you can just go and lynch whoever you want because the scum will shoot each other?

FWIW, here are some fun math facts.

There are 12 players alive. Lynch one today, there are 11. If it is multi-ball (it's not, but you won't believe me so whatever) there will be 3 nightkills tonight and we will awaken with 8 players tomorrow. For a game this size, there are probably 4 scum.

Potentially the game could be over if you miss-lynch today. You can't afford to ignore your biggest scum reads and go and lynch someone else (PV) just for fun. The game is in a precarious state, and making an error now could end it immediately.

Now, realistically I think we probably already have one scum in prison, and I know for a fact it's NOT multi-ball, but if you think I am lying the above is a real possibility. You seem to be playing without a care, perfectly happy to let scum go with the idea you can lynch them later... it's really mind-boggling. You are either not thinking things through, or you are scum.

[karnos]

VOTE: WorldzMine

I thought I was already voting, but let's try this again.

I agree, it sounds like from your perspective, MathBlade and I are definitely scum partners. The illogical thing is that you are refusing to vote for either of us, and instead insist on voting PV, while you fully expect one scum to kill the other scum.

Jaereed and detectivedude don't believe me that Mathblade is scum now, but they will see her differently when she fails to kill you tonight.

You are making it awfully easy for scum to win. All they need is one role-blocker or doctor or similar role and they can guarantee that MathBlade doesn't kill me tonight.

Alternatively, you will see things differently when MathBlade kills me and I flip green. But I kind of don't expect that to happen, either scum!MathBlade will just kill you or D&D instead, or scum will block town!MathBlade's kill.

[karnos]

karnos getting desperate

Do you think PV is also my scum partner?

Okay, I am desperate. Lets go and lose the game together, faster:
VOTE: PeregrineV

[karnos]

Logic would kind of dictate you vote the person you put the bounty on...

Bounty was placed before the frame. Worldz might be scum, and you might be town, but logic doesn't work with ABR.

TBH, my preference would be to lynch JaeReed, MathBlade, Worldz, karnos, in that order. I know there is scum between the first two. Wordz is probably scum, and lynching him would reward a bounty, and as a last resort lynching me leads to a flip which will make my above arguments look a bit more genuine.

But I'll help ABR throw the game by voting you instead, just because it's only a day until deadline and something needs to happen. And hell, maybe I have been wrong and you are scum? Whatever, I'm ready for somebody to flip.

[karnos]

Karnos.

Since he claimed the Drixx kill.

Distancing yourself from the guilty, because you know it's fake?

[karnos]

Because Drixx is an awful target to vig ever
Vigs should always be used on lurkers, i;e PV

PV wasn't in the matrix. The lack of attention reflects poorly on you.

[karnos]

Town is taking jabs at each other and getting upset, then they ignore the scum. That's what I feel like is happening.

You are ignoring your two scum reads with the idea that they will kill each other. It's no wonder the other town are ignoring the scum, they learned it from you.

[karnos]

Because Drixx is an awful target to vig ever
Vigs should always be used on lurkers, i;e PV

PV wasn't in the matrix. The lack of attention reflects poorly on you.

I mean, you felt you needed to use your vig shot on Night 1, the night when you have the least info, because .... ?

Because I didn't know if I would survive the night? I always use 1-shot abilities on the first possible night, dying without using the ability is terrible.

[karnos]

Karnos is definite scum, Mathblade might be scum, but I wouldn't bet the barn on it.

And you are not voting for either of them.

[karnos]

Blah.

VOTE: WorldzMine

Rather have my vote in the right place even if it's not going to matter anyway.

Go sheep ABR, I'm not voting for PV anymore so he can be scum!

[karnos]

Do you want me to vote for randommidget so everyone thinks he must be town, or just let the lynch happen?

[karnos]

It was practically a holiday weekend, Arlington was full of 9/11 observance stuff, I assume other locals had the same things going on.

[karnos]

Anyway, I'm okay with this.

Might as well "hammer my scum partner" like a traitor, since I am "confirmed scum".

VOTE: randomidget

I hope you know what you are doing, ABR. Scum might win overnight if this is a mislynch, and they have 2+ nightkills.

[karnos]

Just remember after MathBlade shoots me and I flip green, there is confirmed scum between JaeReed:MathBlade

If scum block or redirect the shot, GG town. Was nice playing.

[karnos]

I wasn't exactly a quick-hammer, it was more than 24 hours after the L-1 and randommidget hadn't so much as made a peep. Asking for a claim doesn't do anything when the person you are trying to ask isn't posting at all. It's also well past original deadline for the day, it was only extended to give time for replacements, so you can't say we didn't have enough time to discuss- we had a lot more time than we should have had.

Anyway I'm just tired of defending myself. I'm ready to move on, just shoot me so some good can come of my flip.

[karnos]

I don't want to discourage you from reading, but honestly a metric ton of the posts today are all one one topic.

JaeReed had a one-time public cop ability used on me, which sai I was guilty. I know I am town, so I suspect either JaeReed or MathBlade are scum and had a scum partner frame me. Obviously I have no proof, everyone thinks I am scum, whatever.

Long story short: MathBlade will shoot me tonight, I will flip town, and then by PoE you know that either JaeReed or MathBlade are scum.

[karnos]

I have so much to say about this game, but my brain isn't thinking yet. Need moar caffeine.

[karnos]

So, fun game.

My last game with MathBlade we were both scum and they were convinced there was a traitor in the game. So seeing my role as a traitor with scum MathBlade in this just made me laugh. Day 1 I just tried to ignore my role PM and play the same as I normally do as town, though I made a strong exception for McMeeno. I like to think I would have defended him bigtime if I wasn't scum, his gambit was dumb and obvious but there is no scum incentive behind it.

Day 2, being publicly copped sucks. It feels bad having no outs, and having no way to argue out of it, and yet being forced to continue playing. Would almost rather been vigged or otherwise killed. Still, I had to try to come up with a defense, and in the process I wanted to create as much doubt about MathBlade being aligned with me as possible. I lied about the bounty of course, if town lynched worlds I was trying to place my vote at the correct spot to win the bounty and gain bulletproof to survive the "gun". Alternatively I was hoping MathBlade would just shoot someone else and claim he was redirected, but with the town power roles in the game that would have probably been a scum claim, so it's just as well that he didn't.

I didn't mind the jail and lack of flips. I think it does hurt scum too, because they can't gain cred by busing and they can't try to get a townie miss-lynched because of lynching a town flip the previous day. Before I played on mafiascum, I played games without flip on death all the time and there was nothing inherently unbalanced about it. The game is just a bit different.

I didn't mind the randomness, but I also wasn't included on an missions dos I didn't take part in it directly.

The missions reminded me of The Resistance. Might be interesting to try a variant form of the game where the town win condition is based on succeeding on X missions rather than eliminating all scum.

p.s. I really wanted to say "I told you so" when early day 1 town was so insistent on taking only "confirmed town" while locking in MathBlade for the missions.