Inorganic Chemistry [GAME OVER, SCUM WIN]

[Cerberus v666]

Okay, so you disagree with my belief that all PT's should be made public after a game, with all players informed in advance so they can ensure they don't post anything in there they don't want publicized. Cool, now we can have a discussion. Why do you think it's better to allow the possibility of denying players a possible resource?

[ika]

Okay, so you disagree with my belief that all PT's should be made public after a game, with all players informed in advance so they can ensure they don't post anything in there they don't want publicized. Cool, now we can have a discussion. Why do you think it's better to allow the possibility of denying players a possible resource?

Players sometimes put in:

A) persona information about themselfs.
B) persoanl tells about a certian player
C) stuff that could get them in trouble if released

not too long ago i had a game i was modding where the scum team litalrly had a convo about where they lived and nothing game releated. after that they didnt want that to be known info to the public so they requested it not to be released.

[ika]

cerb i would consider taking it to MD if you want to persure this line of thoughts

[Metal Sonic]

Okay, so you disagree with my belief that all PT's should be made public after a game, with all players informed in advance so they can ensure they don't post anything in there they don't want publicized. Cool, now we can have a discussion. Why do you think it's better to allow the possibility of denying players a possible resource?

Players sometimes put in:

A) persona information about themselfs.
B) persoanl tells about a certian player
C) stuff that could get them in trouble if released

not too long ago i had a game i was modding where the scum team litalrly had a convo about where they lived and nothing game releated. after that they didnt want that to be known info to the public so they requested it not to be released.

I agree with this post.

[Cerberus v666]

Okay, so you disagree with my belief that all PT's should be made public after a game, with all players informed in advance so they can ensure they don't post anything in there they don't want publicized. Cool, now we can have a discussion. Why do you think it's better to allow the possibility of denying players a possible resource?

Players sometimes put in:

A) persona information about themselfs.
B) persoanl tells about a certian player
C) stuff that could get them in trouble if released

not too long ago i had a game i was modding where the scum team litalrly had a convo about where they lived and nothing game releated. after that they didnt want that to be known info to the public so they requested it not to be released.

I get that, and that's why any such policy should make it clear in advance that PT's will be getting released...pretty much on the players from that point to not post things they don't want known. Anyways, my point is arguing that they might write things they wouldn't want in a public post isn't valid, because they'd know it will be a public post at some point.

I don't *think* I care enough to actually make this subject a big deal somewhere else, but I'm happy discussing it here. I mean, it's relevant because this is our post game, where we should be able to discuss stuff about the game, but oh, hey look, we can't ask the scum team about their reasoning or anything in their PT. That sucks.

I mean, I've only completed two games on this site, and the scum PT hasn't been shared for either. And one of the games had 3!!!! scum teams...that's a lot of awesome reading about what people were trying to accomplish at different points in the game.

[Cerberus v666]

TL;DR: Using the "Oh, but they might not want their stuff public" argument doesn't work, because they'd know to not put those things in there in the first place..and it seems like that's the only reason anyone has.

[ika]

TL;DR: Using the "Oh, but they might not want their stuff public" argument doesn't work, because they'd know to not put those things in there in the first place..and it seems like that's the only reason anyone has.

It does work though.

If i said i had a PR tell on a player and i told my teamates. I might not want that revealed cus then i can continue to use it to my advantage.

If i talk about my personal life in that said topic in a non-chalant way to them to connect with them, i dont want others knowing about that.

I had players litarly arrange a meetup in a scum PT and they didnt want that disclosed about their locatiosn or where they were metting up. the fun thing about it is that unless they were scum it prob would of never happened.

look this is not the place but this is all i have left ofr said things, bring it to MD if you want more

[Cerberus v666]

TL;DR: Using the "Oh, but they might not want their stuff public" argument doesn't work, because they'd know to not put those things in there in the first place..and it seems like that's the only reason anyone has.

It does work though.

If i said i had a PR tell on a player and i told my teamates. I might not want that revealed cus then i can continue to use it to my advantage.

If i talk about my personal life in that said topic in a non-chalant way to them to connect with them, i dont want others knowing about that.

I had players litarly arrange a meetup in a scum PT and they didnt want that disclosed about their locatiosn or where they were metting up. the fun thing about it is that unless they were scum it prob would of never happened.

look this is not the place but this is all i have left ofr said things, bring it to MD if you want more

That's fine, but the *only* thing that's even remotely something someone might want to keep to themselves is a PR tell...but that argument is invalidated by the fact that they JUST told their teammates. It's obviously not something important enough for them to keep it secret from their teammates, which means they've lost control of the information, which means they have no reasonable expectation that it won't be shared further.

Now, about the meetup: Just PM each other, exchange information elsewhere? Not hard, if you actually want to connect with people, to do so.

I get your stance, I just disagree wholeheartedly that a PT used as a vital mechanical component of the game should ever be kept private.

[Antihero]

TL;DR: Using the "Oh, but they might not want their stuff public" argument doesn't work, because they'd know to not put those things in there in the first place..and it seems like that's the only reason anyone has.

...but it does work...

in general, ppl tend to censor themselves less in private settings (or settings they perceive to be private) and say things they wouldn't normally say in public. that's why i ask everyone if they're ok w/ releasing the pt.

[Cerberus v666]

TL;DR: Using the "Oh, but they might not want their stuff public" argument doesn't work, because they'd know to not put those things in there in the first place..and it seems like that's the only reason anyone has.

...but it does work...

in general, ppl tend to censor themselves less in private settings (or settings they perceive to be private) and say things they wouldn't normally say in public. that's why i ask everyone if they're ok w/ releasing the pt.

Yes, but they censor themselves even more if they know their private conversation will become public.

If you're talking to someone, and they tell you they're recording the conversation, or you're being filmed, or something, you're WAY more aware of what you say that if you weren't informed of that. So, because any mandatory pt release type thing would naturally be accompanied by informing all players in advance that they are, effectively, being recorded and will be broadcast later, you can't make that argument.

[Aristophanes]

I'm sorry Cerb, but I have to agree with Ika here.

If the PTS get auto-shared, it can stop proper conversation and handicap the scum team. If you have a tell on someone you're more likely to get the kill agreed to by teammates if you can go "this is a tell" than if you go "I have a tell on this person but I can't say what it is but you should totally believe me because I'm right."

People will share personal things, that's almost inevitable. You are making your own little scumbonds which can be huge for cohesion between you all.
In scum PTs where scum are less active or stifled for whatever reason, I find a loss is far more likely.

I understand the frustration, and this is my first time having access denied (though I was in it, so it doesn't really effect me). I can see how it can detract from your growth process, but it is uncommon and you'll get plenty of games more to read them in. You have the ISO for Mastina and that is the main bulk of the thread and of what can be learned from it (that and Vezok's part I'd say), which is great and is time stamped. Anti put a lot of work into that which he didn't have to do. So thanks Anti!

Ika has a reason, obviously, so it should be respected. He shouldn't be blamed or villainized for it.

[vezokpiraka]

I've run through ika's iso. I understand what he might consider personal, but there is other stuff in there where you claim you wanted the PT released. I'll just avoid you from now on so these things don't happen anymore.

[Antihero]

TL;DR: Using the "Oh, but they might not want their stuff public" argument doesn't work, because they'd know to not put those things in there in the first place..and it seems like that's the only reason anyone has.

...but it does work...

in general, ppl tend to censor themselves less in private settings (or settings they perceive to be private) and say things they wouldn't normally say in public. that's why i ask everyone if they're ok w/ releasing the pt.

Yes, but they censor themselves even more if they know their private conversation will become public.

If you're talking to someone, and they tell you they're recording the conversation, or you're being filmed, or something, you're WAY more aware of what you say that if you weren't informed of that. So, because any mandatory pt release type thing would naturally be accompanied by informing all players in advance that they are, effectively, being recorded and will be broadcast later, you can't make that argument.

lol you and i are arguing two different things

i'm saying that i wouldn't even MAKE the release a mandatory thing.

you're starting from that premise and arguing from there.

[Cerberus v666]

Well, it's more the fault of the system in place, than Ika. Also, mastins iso require dilution. I can't bear to just read through all of it without anything to break up the monotony of mastin's voice.

Also, just to clarify: I'm not frustrated. I find the fact that this discussion i even occurring kinda ridiculous, and simply feel it shouldn't be a conversation that should even come up. Consistency is the key, and when you let the people in the pt determine if the pt should be shared, you'll end up with inconsistent situations.

pedit: Yes, I know Anti. I'm saying that the "standard system" should be different, for reasons x,y,z, NOT that the way you or anyone else has applied said standard is wrong.

I think the default should be different than it currently is. It should be mandatory in all games for all pt's to be released. That should not be a up to the moderator decision. That's what I'm saying. And I'm saying "why" I think that should be the case.

If that's not the case, or never ends up being the case, yes, I completely agree with the way you've handled the situation.

[Kari]

your argument will differ when you witness yourself the side ika is arguing about.

i had a game where i had a legit mental breakdown (not on this account) right in the scum pt the night after i replaced in. i wont release the reason why and to this day, i STILL dont know why i won that game (it was mykonian's...it was last summer i think) and to this day there's only one outside person allowed to peer in it, and they arent in this topic.

tl;dr: you wont understand why people have that option until it happens to you.

[Titus]

To be an effective team, you have to be able to trust what you say to your partners and that your partners will speak without filter. I generally have no issue releasing my PTs but I can forsee the time when I will take an issue, or that I'd lie to protect someone else who didn't want the PT release.

[Cerberus v666]

your argument will differ when you witness yourself the side ika is arguing about.

i had a game where i had a legit mental breakdown (not on this account) right in the scum pt the night after i replaced in. i wont release the reason why and to this day, i STILL dont know why i won that game (it was mykonian's...it was last summer i think) and to this day there's only one outside person allowed to peer in it, and they arent in this topic.

tl;dr: you wont understand why people have that option until it happens to you.

It won't happen to me. There's nothing I consider sacred or personal enough that I would ever mention it online AND be concerned about it getting to the "wrong people." But, I'm weird. I don't have the same boundaries or sensitivities of a lot of other people.

[Kari]

it can still happen to you by proxy if someone else says something they dont want released and you're in the same PT as them.

[Cerberus v666]

it can still happen to you by proxy if someone else says something they dont want released and you're in the same PT as them.

Well sure, but I certainly won't be understanding of their preference. Their desires aren't any more significant than my own, so I don't see why their preference that what they said remain secret trumps my own desire that everything be shared.

I'll actually probably make a post in any scum pt I happen to be part of going forward asking that everyone make an effort to keep the pt something they wouldn't mind the public seeing.

[vezokpiraka]

it can still happen to you by proxy if someone else says something they dont want released and you're in the same PT as them.

Well sure, but I certainly won't be understanding of their preference. Their desires aren't any more significant than my own, so I don't see why their preference that what they said remain secret trumps my own desire that everything be shared.

I'll actually probably make a post in any scum pt I happen to be part of going forward asking that everyone make an effort to keep the pt something they wouldn't mind the public seeing.

If the people who have access to the PT would have to vote to have it revealed this wouldn't happen. Unfortunately the mod is ultimately responsible for releasing the PT. If he goes against the wishes of someone wanting to keep it a secret he would be considered a bad mod by some people. It's a "don't shoot the messenger" problem.

I've seen games where people wanted to keep the PT hidden, but didn't have the chance to tell the mod before he released it and a lot of other people got pissed at the mod.

[Antihero]

tl;dr: you wont understand why people have that option until it happens to you.

[Jingle]

Yeah, there's no reason to force people to release hidden information. I'd personally offer to delete the posts of the player, but it's entirely up to anti, and completely his prerogative.

On an unrelated note, ika and constantine please refrain from signing up for or replacing into games I'm in. Thanks for your understanding.

[Cerberus v666]

tl;dr: you wont understand why people have that option until it happens to you.

Oh. On a wholly unrelated note, I kinda hate this sentiment. This presumption of uniqueness, like your experience is so special that it's impossible to empathize with or comprehend without sharing the experience. It's untrue. Unless the experience is one which has absolutely no possible parallels or connections to something else which has also been done, or you have intimate knowledge of *how* I process information, you can't say that I won't "understand" something, and it's frankly insulting to even insinuate that such is the case. By doing so, you're essentially saying that I'm incapable of empathy and cognition, that I'm limited to drawing conclusions and understanding things only through purely identical experiences.

I understand *exactly* how those people feel who are in the situation we're talking about. In spite of my understanding, I feel that it is unreasonable for them to feel the way they do. Everyone is allowed to disagree with me if they like, but don't try to give me an out by insulting me and saying I just don't understand. I do understand, but that doesn't mean that I agree.

Minor rant there.

Anyways, GG, etc, etc.

[Kari]

some people wont. i know you do. its a general throw to those that dont.

despite not being able to look at that particular scum pt, anti probably understands what hell i went through that game. he wasnt part of it at all.

[EspeciallyTheLies]

you were pretty much the worst replacement i've ever seen. i cannot believe you were fucking town. you should be ashamed of yourself.