Gistou (Over!)

[Frozen Angel]

@Mastin even if you make DA perfect game I will bitch about its balance even If I was town and it was in my favor. sorry but I believe in perfection and I believe after you posted the endgame story its not about you. Its about whoever is reading the game to get ideas for their futere games. or maybe its about you who wanna make your next game with similar mechanics. So I believe to myself that I'm doing the right job being aggressive about how setup worked out ; I love talking about what happened in the game , and searching to see if it was player's fault ; setup fault or just pure bad luck.

forexamlple obviously :

Me getting culted and watched night one was pure bad luck
Putting down vanillas in a setup which will limit cult access to so many players is setup's fualt
Me rying to cult rach instead of dave was a player based fualt

all these info together helps determining the balance ratio of the game ; It is way harder when your designing the game (basically impossible to do the same amount of analyzing back then)

Still! While I didn't get that, "Oh, yeah, this was definitely THE game of the year!" reaction I was hoping for, while I didn't nail down things perfectly, while I did make a fair share of mistakes, I think that I did succeed overall: this was a momentous game. It was massive. It was grand. It was an epic project, which I shared with the world, from start to finish, taking you along for the ride. And I hope the rollercoaster was worth it in the end.

You did a great job. literally breath taking flavor , grand massive game with so many players. I was really impressed by the amount of time and effort you put down on vote counts (which I think it wasn't necessary but still you did great)

But It wasn't the perfect job your speaking about cause I'm sure with the spoilered setup I saw Town will win every single runs of this game cuase it was heavily town sided. It doesn't mean it wasn't fun which is always the main objective. I'm really proud that I finished playing mafia in a game like this.

It was memorable , great and awesome and I'm thanking you very much for the time and effort you put into this for random strangers (or maybe people you know - at least I am a random stranger to you ) and I really really wanna Hug you girl for messaging me for this awesome game (although it seems like you messaged half of the mafia scum back then but anyway! )

[Frozen Angel]

Thanks for the page top mafia scum

I fucking love you

[Frozen Angel]

and tbh this game lacked a shiro

[Luna Fox]

I think the most confusing win condition was the undead one, town had it easy.

[Frozen Angel]

BAD idea.
Really bad idea.

Not because the millers wouldn't be believed.

Because they WOULD be.
All of them.

Like, all of them, all of them. If claimed on D1.

Know something I am notorious for?

This is like literally the first game of mine WITHOUT millers. (Well, unless you count the undead risen slaves and individual nosferatu showing up as an ambiguous threat to Expedience.) I know my own mod meta, and while I do try to subvert it, I also am quite aware of assumptions players are likely to make.

and I forgot to comment on this

I really don't care about modding meta. if balance is acheived modding meta mean nothing. You made all the race checker alignment checkers without messing with faction's names and putting unique races inside of them. by racial miller I mean something hich is weird like putting an other in individual humans and not naming the group individual "Humans" in the first place. Your a bit hypocritical in this topic. Your falvor was Really the game setup But your insisting that It wasn't. I'm just saying you really shouldn't made unique races factions. that was a really bad Idea. So so so bad that doubled town investigation power (or maybe tripled it)

[Frozen Angel]

I think the most confusing win condition was the undead one, town had it easy.

It was confusing but it was obviously Town. Like even if you were thinking or guessing you might be scum you would use your powers to help town to eleminate other scums you knew about till you get more clues about the treaty itself (which was after the rest of scums elemination).

that being said setup wise , Player view vise , flavor wise and etc ... you were all town till the point the rest of scums died then you might have "With a really really tiny chance" to turn into scums but Till that point and to all other scums you were just town like everyone else.

[callforjudgement]

Some thoughts here.

Luckily people didn't think of it, but I think the game could have been broken D1 via a faction claim. Normally, in a Mafia game, a faction claim is 100% pointless because everyone claims town. In this game, though, there were six town factions and scum wouldn't know which factions were town or not (and might well be forced to claim before they'd seen all the town factions, limiting their options). Some would manage a fakeclaim (and the mod gave some limited help with this), but others would likely screw it up, giving town a headstart. (In particular, this would pretty much defeat any chance the special town would have to play as scum, thus forcing them to throw in with town.)

Special town were pretty much always destined to win with regular town. In general, if a faction has a choice of winning with town or winning by themselves, they pretty much always want to choose to win with town. Thus, the only thing that could potentially go wrong for the special townies would be if the rest of the town refused a joint win (which could only happen, according to play-to-wincon rules, if they were confused into not thinking it would be a joint win). If I were playing and normal town, I'd have been pretty much convinced that a ratify vote would have given a joint win to both town and at least one other faction, and thus would have had no reason to vote anything else.

I think there were enough clues in the mechanics post for everyone to conclusively determine whether they were normal town or scum, and that there were multiple town factions that won together and thus were effectively just one large town faction. (In particular, without a very strong indication that you're meant to be helping scum, seeing no factional communication or knowledge in your role PM is normally a giveaway that you're town.) I can understand some confusion on the part of special town, though before I saw the ratification vote, I interpreted the wincon as meaning "you win if some subset of scum factions are eliminated" (and thus would have played as town).

I don't think special town were a third party. I'd say they were a fourth party: a faction that has a defined win condition, which may well be compatible with town's, but they have some uncertainty as to what it is. However, I think there were a ton of (possibly incorrect) clues that they weren't scum.

[Frozen Angel]

I told it.

not on day 1 though , no one thinks of a massclaim on day 1 but after isolationist flip it was a pretty obvious move no town suggested or went after. wuldens and cult were basically screwed at that point because there was enough flavor clues for who is town and who is not to make the real setup obvious at that point.

Mastian maid me ask nos to making me a fake claim , she was like other race check is a semi guilty on you and I was like what the hell , if town knew about this the game was solved at that point. all scums regradless of the flavor must have a decent fake claim that can answer all aspects beside being scum. If there is no such thing in a game that game will be breakable with massclaim and this game was

[Nahdia]

If done again it might work better for the town/scum trigger to be something a bit more likely to happen and a bit more out of our control, though maybe something we could put some influence on. Like, maybe if Alexis and Nicholas both died before all the traditional scum were gone, we would end up becoming scum.

Don't think I said it though actually but awesome game, mastin. I didn't even want to play to begin with but I'm glad ABR coaxed me into it. I had way more fun with this than I expected to.

[RachMarie]

Maybe if it had been another player other than bacde but this is the dude who watched HIMSELF? Seriously?

If he had vigged I would have been his first target. Same with a couple others which could have really made this a loss for town, He may have been supposed to be playing FOR town but he played pretty antitown all game.

[Frozen Angel]

there was no way for a town loss even if he was one of the vigs rach - this is statically proven

I am saying this needed absoloutly no skill for winning this game and I can prove that

[Frozen Angel]

and thats not an offense to town players. nor to mod. I'm not sure why you all are trying to find alternatives for that.

when we're talking about setup balance we must get other variables like player skills static. this is a scientific view.

[Ircher]

I'm srry mastin and Rach that I bailed on you like that, but there was Bloodborne plus I didnt have the time nor drive to catch up that many pages.

[Ircher]

I realky did want to play.

[Bacde]

Maybe if it had been another player other than bacde but this is the dude who watched HIMSELF? Seriously?

If he had vigged I would have been his first target. Same with a couple others which could have really made this a loss for town, He may have been supposed to be playing FOR town but he played pretty antitown all game.

I wasnt going to target you

I said p clearly i townread you

=\ cmon the game is over and we won you dont have to insult me

GJ mastin this game was amazing sorry for barging in over halfway towards the end and not understanding wtf was going on ever

[Titus]

Nero why did you shoot me?

[Untrod Tripod]