"Happy holidays" is bullshit Christian normativity.

This forum is for discussion about anything else.
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Post Post #1525 (ISO) » Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:42 am

Post by eagerSnake »

In post 6, Thestatusquo wrote:It's really funny! Look at that minority! Isn't he so cute with his anger! Next time someone a person of color tells you about how they are marginalized in society I hope you point and laugh at them and say ""Hey, you need to prove your income to buy this belt." "Fuck you!" yeah I can see you doing this about ten times a day.""

Or better yet, tell them they shouldn't care.

Atheists are literally the "least trusted group in America." I've not gotten promotions before because I didn't believe in god. As I said I used to get the crap beat out of me for my cultural judaism.

You're really going to tell me this stuff doesn't matter? Why do you think its still culturally acceptable?

No, seriously. Stop being a fuck hole for one second.
Just wanted to say the part about atheists being least trusted is completely false. I've personally worked for companies that promote atheists over anyone else. The business world promotes it. They cover it up by calling it "internal locus of control," which they teach you in uni is a favorable management trait. Of course, no Christians have an internal locus of control. All Christians have an external locus of control because they believe in an omnipotent higher power, who can and does influence the world in real-time. It really depends on the company, the management, etc. If a Christian is already in power, and they are a truly committed follower of the Bible, everyone is supposed to have equal chance at promotion. However, if an atheist is in power, they may be much less fair when it comes to promotions. Atheists prefer the company of other atheists, and look down on people who are religious. In fact, any atheist I've ever talked to has thought it funny to believe in religions. Basically calling anyone who is religious stupid, gullible, etc. The very common "they believe in religion because it makes them feel better -lol." If your boss is an atheist and you are religious, good luck to you. However if your boss is truly religious, and not just a Sunday fan, you should have equal chance as long as you are morally sound.
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Post Post #1526 (ISO) » Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:48 am

Post by eagerSnake »

Atheists also believe that if they are alone they can do things which are wrong, and never have any consequence. If they don't get caught, they're in the clear. However, religious people are convicted to do that which they know is right, whether someone is watching or not, due to the fact that their God is always watching.

Note this does not apply to all atheists and all religious people, as people are not as simple as black & white. Most religious people are fakes, and are more of a Sunday fan, and the rest of the week they forget about it. And some atheists feel conviction to do the right things all the time to justify not needing a religion.

If you are an atheist and are finding it difficult to get a promotion because of it, try not advertising the fact you are an atheist, and instead selling it as having an internal locus of control.

If you are religious and are having trouble because of atheist management promoting other atheists first, simply outsmart them and make them
assume
you are also atheist. Of course, be smart enough to do this without ever denouncing your own religion.

Final note, if you are not being promoted because you're atheist, you might as well blow the whistle. Whoever is the religious person who is discriminating against you is a fake, and you should go ahead and get whistle-blower status and report him. If, then, you are unable to prove it, and they decide to still not promote you, then look into finding a better company to work for.
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Post Post #1527 (ISO) » Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:56 am

Post by shaft.ed »

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Post Post #1528 (ISO) » Wed Jan 04, 2017 5:40 am

Post by Psyche »

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Post Post #1529 (ISO) » Wed Jan 04, 2017 5:43 am

Post by Psyche »

it's a very interesting and thoughtful contribution eagersnake and i thank you for making it
it can be hard to put yourself out there sometimes in a new community and it's heartening that you felt comfortable enough to do that here
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Post Post #1530 (ISO) » Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:01 am

Post by Psyche »

I think it's well documented that most people in the US trust atheists less than religionists. You're right that a lot of people have a bias against Christians, but this is apparently largely countervailed by distrust in atheists and a respect for the overall moral conviction of devout Christians. There isn't strong evidence that one's religion (unless one's maybe muslim) affects job prospects one way or another in America in a manner that isn't tracked better by other more well-documented traits like race and SES, though I could look this up to be sure. Anyway, the usual advice for people devoted to their religious beliefs is that they keep talk of said beliefs out of the workplace completely. It is, of course, illegal to discriminate against someone in the workplace because of their religion.

Atheists have lots of reasons to be moral besides self-comparison with religionists. Also, I feel like your characterization of real and fake Christians is vulnerable to the No True Scotsman fallacy. In fact, your characterization of "true" Christians as essentially moral saints who lack bias and are always convicted to do right misrepresents a lot about Christian theology. Humans, even Christian humans, are flawed, immoral creatures; it's part of their nature. That's
why
it was supposedly necessary for Jesus to die on the cross for our sins in the first place — so that we could be redeemed through Him anyway.
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Post Post #1531 (ISO) » Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:05 am

Post by Accountant »

In post 1530, Psyche wrote:Also, I feel like your characterization of real and fake Christians is vulnerable to the No True Scotsman fallacy. In fact, your characterization of "true" Christians as essentially moral saints who lack bias and are always convicted to do right misrepresents a lot about Christian theology.
This is a good point but I think a more devoted Christian who truly cares about the Church's teachings would be more likely to be fair and equitable than someone who was just going to church on sundays and relying on a shallow understanding of the bible
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Post Post #1532 (ISO) » Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:09 am

Post by Psyche »

maybe they're more likely to try, but everyone has biases
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Post Post #1533 (ISO) » Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:33 am

Post by Vi »

In post 1531, Accountant wrote:
In post 1530, Psyche wrote:Also, I feel like your characterization of real and fake Christians is vulnerable to the No True Scotsman fallacy. In fact, your characterization of "true" Christians as essentially moral saints who lack bias and are always convicted to do right misrepresents a lot about Christian theology.
This is a good point but I think a more devoted Christian who truly cares about the Church's teachings would be more likely to be fair and equitable than someone who was just going to church on sundays and relying on a shallow understanding of the bible
...which still circles into No True Christian...

...but isn't incorrect. The issue is how many shallow Christians there are who will fight to the death over their Christian self-label.

I want to say eS doesn't know many atheists, but it also seems to be the case that he doesn't know many Christians, either. Or employers. The first person I can think of who relies on an "internal locus of control" would be most honestly described as worshipping himself, and was also just elected President with substantial help from Christians.

In fact, what the hell does that phrase mean? That someone takes ownership of their own actions? Because anyone who says they aren't their own locus of control is either enslaved or lying.
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Post Post #1534 (ISO) » Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:05 am

Post by eagerSnake »

In post 1531, Accountant wrote:
In post 1530, Psyche wrote:Also, I feel like your characterization of real and fake Christians is vulnerable to the No True Scotsman fallacy. In fact, your characterization of "true" Christians as essentially moral saints who lack bias and are always convicted to do right misrepresents a lot about Christian theology.
This is a good point but I think a more devoted Christian who truly cares about the Church's teachings would be more likely to be fair and equitable than someone who was just going to church on sundays and relying on a shallow understanding of the bible
Of course no one is perfect. My differentiation between real Christians and fans of Christ boils down to real ones, although they may not be moral saints, at least pick up their cross
daily
, say no to themselves and their earthly desires, and try to follow the path of their Lord. Not just on Sunday, but as much as they can every day, in such a way to mirror the morality of their God.

They will fall short, but it's the effort, determination, and commitment that marks the difference.

Otherwise, they are more like a Sunday football fans, who wear their team's colors and cheers for them on sunday, but the rest of the week isn't thinking about the team, or wearing the colors.



Re: keeping all religious conversations out of the workplace- I agree this is the way to go, although it may be unrealistic.
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Post Post #1535 (ISO) » Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:29 am

Post by Kublai Khan »

In post 1526, eagerSnake wrote:Atheists also believe that if they are alone they can do things which are wrong, and never have any consequence. If they don't get caught, they're in the clear.
Fun fact: in addition to not being able to feel guilt or remorse, atheists are also cold-blooded and can unhinge their jaws to eat their prey.
In post 1526, eagerSnake wrote:Note this does not apply to all atheists and all religious people, as people are not as simple as black & white.
Okay, okay. I acknowledge that you pulled back from the generalization brink. But, damn.
In post 1526, eagerSnake wrote:If you are an atheist and are finding it difficult to get a promotion because of it, try not advertising the fact you are an atheist, and instead selling it as having an internal locus of control.

If you are religious and are having trouble because of atheist management promoting other atheists first, simply outsmart them and make them assume you are also atheist. Of course, be smart enough to do this without ever denouncing your own religion.

Final note, if you are not being promoted because you're atheist, you might as well blow the whistle. Whoever is the religious person who is discriminating against you is a fake, and you should go ahead and get whistle-blower status and report him. If, then, you are unable to prove it, and they decide to still not promote you, then look into finding a better company to work for.
I remember once when I applied to Publix, one of the interview questions was something along the lines of "In times of trouble, what gives you the strength to carry on?" and I was completely taken aback at what a "are you Christian" question it was (without directly asking it). I mean, I knew that Publix is a fairly Christian company, since they usually have religious books to peruse while waiting at the deli, but I was shocked at the aggressive discrimination. Realistically I could have lied and not suffered any consequences (plus probably gotten the job), but I didn't. I did a variation on the "internal locus of control" but it didn't work. They didn't hear the G-word and they weren't interested (the entire demeanor of the interviewer changed).

Mind you, I've worked plenty of jobs where I've known my employers' religion and they didn't care about mine. I figure it's one of those things that the free market would taken care of. By employing that strategy, Publix might get true believers on staff, but they'll also miss out on qualified applicants and/or welcome in a lot of superficial liars.

There seemed little point to whistleblowing. It's an expensive thing to bring lawsuits forward and I definitely couldn't prove for sure that it was the religious question (which was well worded to avoid mentioning Christianity or God) that killed my potential employment.
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Post Post #1536 (ISO) » Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:35 am

Post by Garmr »

Hey kublai How do you feel knowing I agree with you for once.
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Post Post #1537 (ISO) » Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:47 am

Post by eagerSnake »

Re: Publix- That is disgusting. You don't want to work for a company that employs such shady tactics to avoid discrimination charges. If they are willing to hide the fact they are discriminating, what else are they hiding?
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Post Post #1538 (ISO) » Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:45 am

Post by Postie »

In post 1533, Vi wrote:In fact, what the hell does that phrase mean?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locus_of_control
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Post Post #1539 (ISO) » Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:00 am

Post by Postie »

While I agree that certain teachings like the idea of a literal devil can encourage an external locus of control, there are a large amount of other factors in play in any individual's life that can swing things one way or another. It's really not as simple as Christian = external LoC, atheist = internal LoC.
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Post Post #1540 (ISO) » Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:22 am

Post by eagerSnake »

Any devout Christian who is well studied should have an external LoC. Their God is omnipotent and according to teachings, if you give Him your life and live for Him everyday, he will make sure things go according to His plan for you.

Christians (external LoC) = I didn't get that promotion / job because it wasn't a part of God's plan for me.

Atheists w/ internal LoC = I didn't get the promotion / job because I wasn't qualified/not the best.

Atheists w/ external LoC = I didn't get that promotion / job because the hiring manager was a fool / the other candidates lied/brown-nosed.

The closest a Christian should come to internal LoC is = I didn't get the job / promotion because, even though it was God's plan for me, I am not living right by Him and don't deserve it.

But even then, that is accepting an external LoC, and puts them in sort of a gray area, which I would lean toward being external because of the acknowledgement of a divine force possibly intervening.

I'd be really interested in seeing survey statistics on this.
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Post Post #1541 (ISO) » Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:15 pm

Post by Postie »

In post 1540, eagerSnake wrote:Their God is omnipotent and according to teachings, if you give Him your life and live for Him everyday, he will make sure things go according to His plan for you.
I mean that's the traditional view but it's far from the only way of looking at things from a Christian PoV. There are Christians who don't believe in an anthropomorphic God, or don't believe God is fully omnipotent/omnibenevolent/omniscient, and for those people the "God did/didn't will it" line of thought might not be a thing.
In post 1540, eagerSnake wrote:The closest a Christian should come to internal LoC is = I didn't get the job / promotion because, even though it was God's plan for me, I am not living right by Him and don't deserve it.

But even then, that is accepting an external LoC, and puts them in sort of a gray area, which I would lean toward being external because of the acknowledgement of a divine force possibly intervening.
Putting aside my previous point for a moment and assuming a traditional picture of God, there are other ways of restating the same thing which shift it distinctly towards showing an internal LoC. For example, "I didn't get the job / promotion because I didn't work hard enough. God isn't a wishing well who's there to pick up the pieces when I'm feeling lazy."
Although I'd argue that the example you gave is already on the internal end of things because of the individual considering it their own fault.
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Post Post #1542 (ISO) » Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:31 pm

Post by Garmr »

In post 1540, eagerSnake wrote:Any devout Christian who is well studied should have an external LoC. Their God is omnipotent and according to teachings, if you give Him your life and live for Him everyday, he will make sure things go according to His plan for you.

Christians (external LoC) = I didn't get that promotion / job because it wasn't a part of God's plan for me.

Atheists w/ internal LoC = I didn't get the promotion / job because I wasn't qualified/not the best.

Atheists w/ external LoC = I didn't get that promotion / job because the hiring manager was a fool / the other candidates lied/brown-nosed.

The closest a Christian should come to internal LoC is = I didn't get the job / promotion because, even though it was God's plan for me, I am not living right by Him and don't deserve it.

But even then, that is accepting an external LoC, and puts them in sort of a gray area, which I would lean toward being external because of the acknowledgement of a divine force possibly intervening.

I'd be really interested in seeing survey statistics on this.
wow this sounds deluded here's another scenario for you.


Christians (external LoC) = Because they hate god,they must be sinners,the other candidates must be lying atheist,or they discriminated because i'm christian even through it wasn't brought up.

You seem to demonize atheist while making Christians out to be able to do no wrong. The dark ages make me think otherwise.
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Post Post #1543 (ISO) » Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:11 pm

Post by Accountant »

In post 1533, Vi wrote:...which still circles into No True Christian...
this isn't no true christian, it's a distinction between two different types of christian and the comparison of their behaviors, concluding in the point that the distinction between their behavior means that it's a bad idea to generalize to all christians from one side's behavior
There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.

You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.
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Post Post #1544 (ISO) » Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:12 pm

Post by Accountant »

An internal locus of control is an inherently desirable trait, so it's not religious discrimination if they only pick IoC people, and it just so happens that atheists are more likely to be ioc
There's nothing that says that a fake can't beat the real thing.

You must not imagine that for beings like you and us there can be laughter. The low men laugh, and we envy them. But for us, the higher ones, there is no laughter, only an unending vigil, purely serious, stretching on into the night.
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Post Post #1545 (ISO) » Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:54 pm

Post by implosion »

eagerSnake wrote:Just wanted to say the part about atheists being least trusted is completely false.
Hrm.
eagerSnake wrote:Atheists also believe that if they are alone they can do things which are wrong, and never have any consequence. If they don't get caught, they're in the clear.
This sounds suspiciously like a distrust of atheists... and is not an accurate generalization. But to the point, lots of people make this generalization. Hence atheists being one of the least trusted groups in the US. There are plenty of polls that back this up (one example).
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Post Post #1546 (ISO) » Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:06 pm

Post by Garmr »

@eagersnake
Religious people can justify murder as long there god justify it. I mean as long as your genuinely sorry for your sins the christian god will forgive you so why even worry.

See it goes both ways bud.
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Post Post #1547 (ISO) » Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:18 pm

Post by eagerSnake »

What does a nonreligious person have to fear if they don't get caught?
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Post Post #1548 (ISO) » Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:26 pm

Post by Shaziro »

Their own personal ethics. You realize that people who don't think they have to answer to a god still have to answer to -themselves- right? Personally, I'm religious, but if you can't understand that ethics and morals are not a matter of believing in a god then I don't know what to tell you.
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Post Post #1549 (ISO) » Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:58 pm

Post by Garmr »

In post 1547, eagerSnake wrote:What does a nonreligious person have to fear if they don't get caught?
What does a religious person have to fear if death isn't the end? If they think there god will have a place for them in heaven after a murderous act what stops them from doing it.

Kinda sucks having your own logic applied against you.
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